A list of interminable issues

[bulldogsthru&thru]

There were times in last nights game where you knew what would happen with the same predictability that night follows day. We all knew 5 minutes into last night what the outcome would be. We have had issues since 2017 that reoccur tme and time again. I had to close my eyes on numerous occasions when Richmond sent a long ball into their 50 as I just knew there would be a pack mark, largely uncontested, from one of their talls. Hell we were 30 seconds away from seeing Chol kick a bag and we've seen similar players do this to us in the past.

So, what issues are you just sick of seeing from us? What issues have you seen for years that just don't seem to be getting addressed? I'll get the ball rolling:

1) No forward line structure/organisation: We don't ever seem to have a cohesive plan up forward. It always looks like we are just bombing it in there to a pack of players. The only game we have looked remotely organised was against north but I think that game said more about them than us. We barely see any sense of opposing lead patterns, blocks (we saw one last night from Gowers) or sensible positioning. We also have a lot of bit-part players in there. Wallis was a mid, Naughton was a defender (not saying he can't play forward, he obviously can, but it shows how desperate we are down there that we had to try one of our best defenders as a forward), Gowers is not AFL quality. We're crying out for natural forwards but even when we recruit some (Bruce, Lloyd) we seem to run into the same problems that these guys didn't really have at their previous clubs.

2) Goal kicking inaccuracy: Don't really need to add much more. Its horrendous and players we bring in from other clubs seem to get worse. Ok Bruce was never a great kick at goal at the saints but he's gotten worse with us. He shanks so many basic shots. The Bont is a marvellous field kick (usually) yet can't nail a standard set shot. At some point you wonder what he would be like if he played for another club. What is it about our club that leads to such shocking goal kicking? The saints have fixed their woes and I'm sure Roughead has had a hand in that. Someone who I thought we should have targeted. This is another issue to come.

3a) Forward half marking contests - all up none down: Either everyone goes up for the mark or noone does. One would think this is fairly simple to address yet here we are years later watching it over and over again. How many times have you seen 4 of our players go up for the same mark leaving no-one to rove the crumbs. It feels as though 9/10 kicks into our forward 50 sees this happen. It would help our forward problems if we could get this right. We see it all the time that as soon as the ball hits the ground, it's coming straight out as we have no-one at ground level to provide a contest.

3b) Forward half marking contests - all down none up: We also have the opposite to the above where no-one will go for the mark. This typically happens at the 'hot zone' 10m in front of the goal square. For whatever reason no-one will go for the mark and the oppostions biggest player, typically the ruckman, just takes this easy uncontested mark. I can't get my head around how many times i see this happen. What is going on in the forward line that consistently leads to this? Is the ball kicked to the wrong spot that many times? Or are our forwards just not communicating?

4) Foot skills: We all know this one. We would have to be one of the worst teams when it comes to skill by foot. We're elite with the handball but woeful by foot. Why is this? Some players come into the club and you think "wow they look clean by foot" yet they then deteriorate over time. Again you wonder if they played for another club would this happen? Think Richards, Dale, Bont, Bailey Smith, Suckling etc. It might be the incredibly taxing style of game we play that leads to fatigue and also the fact that we play a contested style where there are few players who find space.

5) Taxing gameplan We have to be 100% on for us to win. Our gameplan is built on 100% intensity to outwork our opponent at the coalface. We seem to be quite vanilla here with no point of difference. Either we crack in and muscle the ball forward (think Macrae style) or we fall over meekly. I actually think we've got some unique talent on our list that isn't being utilised to it's best potential. The Bont is a classic example. He should be used like Dusty is at Richmond, but no, we seem to use him the same as any other inside mid, jumping in the coal face for a handball out. He just never seems to have space anymore and I think this is as much gameplan related as it is his own performance. We just have so many numbers around the ball that it's nearly impossible for our mids to find space. What happens is a junk airball to our forwards who have little chance of getting anything going. What irks me more is that when we have found space, we are lethal. Think Essendon last year and north this year. Ok yes the opposition had a large say in allowing us to have that much space but I would think if we put in a fair bit of effort to try create that space for ouselves it would help immensely. We shoot ourselves in the foot here. Are we making an effort at all to help the likes of Bont and Smith get space the same way Richmond does for Dusty?
The other side to this is getting hurt on the spread. If we aren't first to the ball we are often killed on the spread. It feels as though we are structured around assuming we win the ball so that when we don't, we aren't in a position to stop the spread from the opposition and they just get the ball away too easily with handballs over our players' heads.

6) Lack of pace: This is fairly eveident but could also be a symptom of point 5 above. Most elite teams have points of difference but we seem to be fairly type A. We have too many plodders who will crack in and not enough guys who can actually burst out of a pack to create space. I did mention above that I feel we have players who can do this, but it's not enough, especially when we're relying on these same guys to win the ball themselves. You can't have the likes of Smith and Bont winning the ball and bursting out of the pack all the same. We need more players with genuine pace to gain some separation. Last night we looked horrendously off the pace. I get that we've had a packed schedule but Richmond were coming off 1 day less break and made us look like an EJ Whitten Legends team.

7) Effort for goals: Which other team appears to work as hard for a goal than us? We just seem to have to run a marathon in order to kick a goal, yet the opposition will get cheapie after cheapie out the back with relative ease. Another symptom perhaps of our game style but it seems like so much effort for each of our goals compared to when watching other teams. And the goals don't appear to come from systematic play. It always seems so scrappy (see point 1 re forward line cohesion).

8) Plan B, or lack thereof: We've all spoken about it. If our style isn't working we are doomed. It appears our plan A is numbers around the ball, work the handball to the man in space (rarely happens) and drive forward (to an inept forwad line). The numbers around the ball come from having numbers behind the ball. What we've seen in most of our losses is that when teams pressure our numbers around the ball, or, they deny us possession and suck our numbers from behind the ball up the field, we are stuffed. We have no answer. And we've seen a fairly poor response from the coaches box. Simply swapping Bont with a forward isn't going to cut it. We just don't seem to have an answer. We also don't ever seem to strategise around our opponents' weaknesses. It seems to be we play our way and if it works great. If it doesn't we'll simply try harder next time.

9) Defensive half marking contests: As hopeless as we are at marking the hot spot kick in our own forward 50, we're just as inept at defending it in our defensive 50. Every time a sky or long ball is kicked into our 50, the opposition is odds on to take a pack mark with little resistance from our defenders. It's well known we can make a dud tall dude look like Wayne Carey let alone a decent player like Lynch. I'm getting nightmares in thinking what tall, lanky but talented Max King could do to us in the future. Why are we so bad at defending the long high ball? We seem to get caught out ball watching and horribly out of position when the ball comes in. As stated above, I have to close my eyes when the long and high ball is kicked in.

10) Defenders caught out the back: This one is easy. We've seen it time and again in our losses. Although it only happened a couple times last night, there were still issues with our setup allowing far too much space to Richmonds forwards. There was one point, from a turnover, where Cordy was at least 25m in front of his opponent who himself was about 40m out from goal. Cordy was all by himself so i have no idea what value there is in guarding empty space whilst an opponent is all by himself in the forward 50. This particular play resulted in a goal not surprisingly as the ball was kicked over Cordy's head to the richmond player all by himself. But this happens all too often. Again, we seem to rely on a certain defensive setup but all too often teams exploit this setup and we get royally screwed.

11) Allowing short chips up the ground: Last night was not the first time we've seen it. Teams simply deny us possession by using small kicks up the ground. They'll work from a kick-in all the way to 60m out from goal doing this. And each time the opposing player taking the short mark is 10m in front of our guy. This must simply be workrate or again a symptom of our gameplan where we push numbers behind the ball meaning we're on the back foot when an opposing player makes a lead. But the opposition will get the ball 60m out with ease then provide a long high ball into forward 50 where point 9 rears its ugly head.

12) Coaching panel: Ok this is essentially what the thread is about but what on earth are our coaches doing if these reccuring issues are not getting solved? What are we working on each preseason when we have seen very little change? A few have mentioned that our coaching staff needs a shakeup and I agree. We need fresh ideas as using the same plan for 5 years clearly isn't cutting it anymore. Teams have figured us out.

I would like to think this list is complete but I'm sure i've missed some that others can provide!

[Mofra]

Rocca has done wonders with Casbault - having him as our goal kicking coach would make us a 2-3 goal per week better side.

[The bulldog tragician]

I really like your point about the taxing gameplan bulldogsthru&thru and the impact on someone like Bont being asked to also be a contested ball animal. It's like we are turning our Rolls Royce into a tractor. I mentioned elsewhere that when we play him forward, he is just another of the gang rather than clearing space for him.

Actually your post was so good it was depressing, especially on the issue of skills going backwards and our unerring ability to transform good kicks into bad!

[Danjul]

There were times in last nights game where you knew what would happen with the same predictability that night follows day. We all knew 5 minutes into last night what the outcome would be

etc


Brilliant observations.

Collingwood used the formula revealed by Port during the preseason game. The Carlton and Richmond games were direct copies. Saints similar.

put a couple of strong overhead marks 25 m out directly in front of goal. Direct forward play through that point. Result will be early goal and all Dogs defence will all run to that point to spoil. Opposition smalls stay down and get easy goals.

Panic will set in and the excessive handball game will operate between half forward and half back. This will lead to turnovers and Dogs players caught out of position. Any wide receiver will be able to run up the middle.

If the Dogs midfielders manage to kick the ball into the forward 50 it will be a ‘bomb’ and the forwards will spoil each other so position some defenders in space and the ball will be cleared easily.

Expected result: 40 - 50 point win.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Brilliant observations.

Collingwood used the formula revealed by Port during the preseason game. The Carlton and Richmond games were direct copies. Saints similar.

put a couple of strong overhead marks 25 m out directly in front of goal. Direct forward play through that point. Result will be early goal and all Dogs defence will all run to that point to spoil. Opposition smalls stay down and get easy goals.

Panic will set in and the excessive handball game will operate between half forward and half back. This will lead to turnovers and Dogs players caught out of position. Any wide receiver will be able to run up the middle.

If the Dogs midfielders manage to kick the ball into the forward 50 it will be a ‘bomb’ and the forwards will spoil each other so position some defenders in space and the ball will be cleared easily.

Expected result: 40 - 50 point win.

You mean the team we play this week was the original team to expose us? Oh boy

[mjp]

So.

Whether I agree or disagree with each point (or whether anyone does) is kind of irrelevant right now. But I think everyone would agree that when we lose it is on the back of leaking goals and being unable to convert possession chains into scores.

Given the long list of issues you have identified, there is (realistically) only going to be ONE (maybe TWO) of these "interminable" issues that the coaches could reasonable 'fix' during the season.

Which one/two would you pick and why?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

So.

Whether I agree or disagree with each point (or whether anyone does) is kind of irrelevant right now. But I think everyone would agree that when we lose it is on the back of leaking goals and being unable to convert possession chains into scores.

Given the long list of issues you have identified, there is (realistically) only going to be ONE (maybe TWO) of these "interminable" issues that the coaches could reasonable 'fix' during the season.

Which one/two would you pick and why?

To fix during the season leaves out 2, 4, 5 (and by extension 7), 6 and 12.

For mine, 3 and 9 should (at least to the untrained eye) be the easiest to fix. It's obviously going to come down to communication and 'connectedness' as Bevo put it but knowing who should be going for the mark/spoil and who should be staying down to gather the crumbs is fairly fundamental, especially in the forward line. It's also about knowing where to position oneself for the crumbs. I rarely see one of our player square to the marking contest. They're typically behind the pack if they're not going up for it themselves. Now again, this could be a symptom of a problem further up the field in that the ball is coming inside 50 in a manic way. Now point 1 can also play apart here in that if we get some organisation and structure going up forward, it might help issue 3. The way Bruce and Schache played against north is a good example. North helped play a part in that yeah, but we rarely see out forward line working like that.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

So.

Whether I agree or disagree with each point (or whether anyone does) is kind of irrelevant right now. But I think everyone would agree that when we lose it is on the back of leaking goals and being unable to convert possession chains into scores.

Given the long list of issues you have identified, there is (realistically) only going to be ONE (maybe TWO) of these "interminable" issues that the coaches could reasonable 'fix' during the season.

Which one/two would you pick and why?

Also I think whether you or anyone else agrees/disagrees IS relevant. Perhaps the issues I've listed aren't as problematic as I think. Afterall these are just my observations from sitting on a couch watching the games on TV. It'd be good to hear other perspectives.

[bornadog]

I don't have a lot of time to go into all your points, but there are a few areas I don't agree with, and may take a little time to address some of those due to work.

One area is marking inside 50. In 2019, we were the number one in the AFL for marks inside 50. This year we sit about average, but we do have the number one contested mark missing for most of the season. I get your point, too many going up for the mark at the same time is annoying.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I don't have a lot of time to go into all your points, but there are a few areas I don't agree with, and may take a little time to address some of those due to work.

One area is marking inside 50. In 2019, we were the number one in the AFL for marks inside 50. This year we sit about average, but we do have the number one contested mark missing for most of the season. I get your point, too many going up for the mark at the same time is annoying.

Thanks. I missed all of 2019 so I suppose my points are based on 2017, 2018 and this season. What do you think was the difference for 2019 to be so effective? Simply Naughtons presence?

[bornadog]

Thanks. I missed all of 2019 so I suppose my points are based on 2017, 2018 and this season. What do you think was the difference for 2019 to be so effective? Simply Naughtons presence?

I think Naughton made a big difference to the figures in 2019

[Remi Moses]

Loss of Naughton shouldn’t be sneezed at
Just starting to get some form going
I agree entirely with our game seeming to rely on 100% intensity and dare I say it
“Cracking in”

[GVGjr]

I don't have a lot of time to go into all your points, but there are a few areas I don't agree with, and may take a little time to address some of those due to work.

One area is marking inside 50. In 2019, we were the number one in the AFL for marks inside 50. This year we sit about average, but we do have the number one contested mark missing for most of the season. I get your point, too many going up for the mark at the same time is annoying.

We added Bruce who was rated with that F50 marking ability and now is nowhere near as effective
Losing Naughton and adding Bruce shouldn't have made that much of a difference between 2019 and 2020 but it has

[Axe Man]

I don't have a lot of time to go into all your points, but there are a few areas I don't agree with, and may take a little time to address some of those due to work.

One area is marking inside 50. In 2019, we were the number one in the AFL for marks inside 50. This year we sit about average, but we do have the number one contested mark missing for most of the season. I get your point, too many going up for the mark at the same time is annoying.

Agreed, marks inside 50 is well down the list of issues. We generate a reasonable number of marks inside 50 most weeks, capitalising on them is another matter entirely. Last night it was 11 v 12. I have more concerns with being able to generate goals from sources other than marks.

[Danjul]

You mean the team we play this week was the original team to expose us? Oh boy
I do. I commented on it here at the time. Replies dismissed it as irrelevant because it was a practice match. But in the second half they stormed over us by doing exactly that. The longer it went the worse it got. Obviously Port wasn’t the only team to analyse our game plan and find a weakness.

[Danjul]

We added Bruce who was rated with that F50 marking ability and now is nowhere near as effective
Losing Naughton and adding Bruce shouldn't have made that much of a difference between 2019 and 2020 but it has
Last night we had Bruce lead into an enormous hole and mark about 35m out. Goal followed.

I also saw Bont try to outmark him, and English coming the other way managed to punch the ball away from both.

I think the first instance was an accident because I saw the second repeated by other forwards many times.

I am sure I saw West do it a few weeks ago and maybe Weightman last week.

Got to feel sorry for Bruce, he seems to be the only full forward who has his teammates as such a liability.

There is no coordination on the forward line so the ball bounces out of the 50 metre arc easily.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Last night we had Bruce lead into an enormous hole and mark about 35m out. Goal followed.

I also saw Bont try to outmark him, and English coming the other way managed to punch the ball away from both.

I think the first instance was an accident because I saw the second repeated by other forwards many times.

I am sure I saw West do it a few weeks ago and maybe Weightman last week.

Got to feel sorry for Bruce, he seems to be the only full forward who has his teammates as such a liability.

There is no coordination on the forward line so the ball bounces out of the 50 metre arc easily.

Yep. All players leading for the same ball doesn't help our cause.

[mjp]

Also I think whether you or anyone else agrees/disagrees IS relevant. Perhaps the issues I've listed aren't as problematic as I think. Afterall these are just my observations from sitting on a couch watching the games on TV. It'd be good to hear other perspectives.

Yeah - I guess but I didn't really mean it like that. What I meant was:

"There is a lot of 'stuff' to unpack (both watching the game and in your post) but we clearly can't fix EVERYTHING...we need to focus on 'something'". I guess I really wanted to know what YOU thought might be correctable in the short term (given it was your list)...

[Danjul]

Yeah - I guess but I didn't really mean it like that. What I meant was:

"There is a lot of 'stuff' to unpack (both watching the game and in your post) but we clearly can't fix EVERYTHING...we need to focus on 'something'". I guess I really wanted to know what YOU thought might be correctable in the short term (given it was your list)...

The talent is there. All it needs is for the coach to say two words:

spread out,

Maybe add in two more:

man up,

Maybe include:

kick it.

There. Half of the problems solved.

Now add to that a key position backman, a centre half forward who leads away from Bruce, a genuine second ruck to take pressure off English and half of the rest are taken care of.

[EasternWest]

The talent is there. All it needs is for the coach to say two words:

spread out,

Maybe add in two more:

man up,

Maybe include:

kick it.

There. Half of the problems solved.

Now add to that a key position backman, a centre half forward who leads away from Bruce, a genuine second ruck to take pressure off English and half of the rest are taken care of.

I'll add three more: "front and square". We never seem to have anyone at the foot of the pack.

[G-Mo77]

I'll add three more: "front and square". We never seem to have anyone at the foot of the pack.

If they are they are right in their jumper and not a good distance back for a spillage and clean possession. Spacing has been awful for a while, I can't comment on this season to much as I don't really notice it watching on TV, if I'm at the ground I see more but it's often something I'm moaning to myself about on the drive home after a loss.

[bornadog]

We added Bruce who was rated with that F50 marking ability and now is nowhere near as effective
Losing Naughton and adding Bruce shouldn't have made that much of a difference between 2019 and 2020 but it has

He was fourth in contested marks last year and he has been disappointing this year with only 8 after 9 games. Dixon is leading with 26, and the next best is 18. Tim English has 15.

He is another one that has stacked on the weight and needs to trim up

[Mantis]

He was fourth in contested marks last year and he has been disappointing this year with only 8 after 9 games. Dixon is leading with 26, and the next best is 18. Tim English has 15.

He is another one that has stacked on the weight and needs to trim up

He also needs some help!

With Naughton either ineffectual or injured we have no other aerial threats in the forward half and it means Bruce is drawing a crowd whenever he goes near the ball. No surprise that his best performance was in a game that Schache played and did well to draw other defenders away and opened up some leading lanes.

And are you able to provide some fact on his playing weight now as opposed to in other years? Or are you just guessing?

[bornadog]

And are you able to provide some fact on his playing weight now as opposed to in other years? Or are you just guessing?

Guessing from looking at him compared to previous years

[Axe Man]

Guessing from looking at him compared to previous years

BAD's previous occupation was guessing people's weights in a travelling carnival, he is remarkably accurate. ;)

[Vred]

Last night we had Bruce lead into an enormous hole and mark about 35m out. Goal followed.

I also saw Bont try to outmark him, and English coming the other way managed to punch the ball away from both.

I think the first instance was an accident because I saw the second repeated by other forwards many times.

I am sure I saw West do it a few weeks ago and maybe Weightman last week.

Got to feel sorry for Bruce, he seems to be the only full forward who has his teammates as such a liability.

There is no coordination on the forward line so the ball bounces out of the 50 metre arc easily.

This 100% Way to many of our players flying for the same ball instead of letting Bruce do all the work, some of our guys really need to watch it coming into the 50 and if they see Bruce going for it, stay at ground and get ready to crumb if it comes out the back or isn't marked. His an excellent mark above his head and I have no idea why half our guys are so intent on spoiling him in the contest.

[bornadog]

BAD's previous occupation was guessing people's weights in a travelling carnival, he is remarkably accurate. ;)

Very funny.

Tell me what is your opinion on his size?

[Axe Man]

Very funny.

Tell me what is your opinion on his size?

He does appear big but I've got no idea if he's bigger than last year, I never took much notice of him at St Kilda.

By the way I wasn't having a crack at you, just a joke.

[bornadog]

He does appear big but I've got no idea if he's bigger than last year, I never took much notice of him at St Kilda.

By the way I wasn't having a crack at you, just a joke.

All good I took it as a joke. I was starting to think maybe I am too harsh on his weight

[Bulldog Revolution]

Others will be better versed than I - but is the place to start this week the midfield?

If Bont, English and Smith are as poor again, and collectively we over possess, turn it over and perhaps don't work hard enough defensively, allow easy forward exits, then we are not likely. Will we throw a curve ball like resting English and blooding Sweet in his home state?

Is the midfield the starting place for getting a better performance this week?

Sure the backline had some moments that weren't super, the ball got out the back too easily, but when you allow midfields time and space to set it up then guys like Lynch will occasionally take a good mark etc. I felt like the backline hung in there and worked away at it.

The forward line has been in a state of flux all season with players coming in and out of the team - Wallis has been the constant, Bruce is new to the team, and Vandameeer is new to senior AFL footy but has made a really bright start. Around them Naughton, Schache, West, and Dale, plus Lloyd and Gowers, and Richards have been in and out of the forward line through form and injuries - isn't it natural at this stage that we wouldn't be as cohesive in that area?

Or is that a cop out?

[hujsh]

He also needs some help!

With Naughton either ineffectual or injured we have no other aerial threats in the forward half and it means Bruce is drawing a crowd whenever he goes near the ball. No surprise that his best performance was in a game that Schache played and did well to draw other defenders away and opened up some leading lanes.

And are you able to provide some fact on his playing weight now as opposed to in other years? Or are you just guessing?

We're also not fantastic at kicking to his advantage. Maybe it's a Bruce thing though as we manage to make it work with Wally.

[Axe Man]

Not sure where to post this but here seems as good a place as any:

TERRY WALLACE’S DEEP DIVE INTO THE BULLDOGS’ WORRYING PATTERNS (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/07/29/terry-wallaces-deep-dive-into-the-bulldogs-worrying-patterns/)

Terry Wallace has taken a deep dive into some worrying trends at Western Bulldogs over a 15-game stretch.

The Bulldogs could be outside the top eight by the end of the weekend after they were comprehensively beaten by reigning premiers Richmond to the tune of 41 points on Wednesday night.

peaking on SEN’s The Match Committee, Wallace assessed the manner in which the Dogs have been beaten in recent times and the question marks over their adaptability against well-structured sides.

“There is an absolute pattern occurring, in a matter of fact, it’s occurred for longer than that (this season),” the former Bulldogs coach said.

“In their last 15 games that they’ve played only one game, which was last weekend in the wet and slippery conditions against the Gold Coast, only one game has been decided by less than 24 points.

“They’ve either won every game by four-plus goals or they’ve been beaten every game by four-plus goals in 15 games.

“Who have they beaten this season? They’ve beaten 10th, 12th, 14th and 17th with one win against a top eight side in Essendon. They have beaten sides who are either immature or that lack real genuine organisation and cohesion.

“This is their losing margins this year: 52 (points), 39, 52, 41 – they’ve been belted when they’ve got beaten. So that’s against Collingwood (ninth), St Kilda (fifth), Carlton (11th) and Richmond (3rd).

“What are those sides to me? Most of them are good sides but what they are is they are disciplined and organised in their game structures and game plans.

“The young sides and the lack of organisation sides the Doggies are beating, the sides who work them out and figure them out, they don’t beat.

“When they get beaten, what beats them? It is absolutely clear what beats them – it’s sides who control the ball against the Bulldogs. Their inside 50 effectiveness drops from a win where it’s 49 per cent … to in a loss it’s 35 per cent. They are 14 per cent different if they are not allowed to play their own natural game.

“If they’re not allowed to play their natural game and the pressure comes back on them the other way, they fall apart.”

The Dogs have a quick turnaround before playing Port Adelaide at Adelaide Oval on Monday night.

[comrade]

So are we the worst of the better teams or the best of the worst teams?

[Sedat]

It's a pretty fair analysis by Plough, and one that many on here have previously noted over the last 18 months

I hope we can unlock the secret to reversing this clear trend. Otherwise we will be stuck in the middle-of-the-road and nowhere near contending.

[Topdog]

I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Others will be better versed than I - but is the place to start this week the midfield?

If Bont, English and Smith are as poor again, and collectively we over possess, turn it over and perhaps don't work hard enough defensively, allow easy forward exits, then we are not likely. Will we throw a curve ball like resting English and blooding Sweet in his home state?

Is the midfield the starting place for getting a better performance this week?

Sure the backline had some moments that weren't super, the ball got out the back too easily, but when you allow midfields time and space to set it up then guys like Lynch will occasionally take a good mark etc. I felt like the backline hung in there and worked away at it.

The forward line has been in a state of flux all season with players coming in and out of the team - Wallis has been the constant, Bruce is new to the team, and Vandameeer is new to senior AFL footy but has made a really bright start. Around them Naughton, Schache, West, and Dale, plus Lloyd and Gowers, and Richards have been in and out of the forward line through form and injuries - isn't it natural at this stage that we wouldn't be as cohesive in that area?

Or is that a cop out?

It's not a cop out. It's a valid point. I guess the concern is we've never been settled up forward. When was the last time we had a settled forward line? Even in our premiership year it wasn't exactly settled apart from Stringer and Dickson.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet

Schache perfectly compliments our forward line. He's exactly what we need along with a natural small forward. Problem with Schache is his efforts. If he'd just pull his finger out he'd have a permanent spot in the team on his ability. Hopefully it clicks for him soon otherwise what a waste.

[Mofra]

I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet
He just constantly leads at the ball carrier, which means players upfield don't need to try and slow the game down to retain the ball.

He's no KPF but he does work hard and lead, lead, lead. He will have up and down games but right now he wouldn't be the worst forward we have if he gets a chance this week (I really believe he would have played last game except for concussion).

[Dancin' Douggy]

I agree
I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet

[jeemak]

Others will be better versed than I - but is the place to start this week the midfield?

If Bont, English and Smith are as poor again, and collectively we over possess, turn it over and perhaps don't work hard enough defensively, allow easy forward exits, then we are not likely. Will we throw a curve ball like resting English and blooding Sweet in his home state?

Is the midfield the starting place for getting a better performance this week?

Sure the backline had some moments that weren't super, the ball got out the back too easily, but when you allow midfields time and space to set it up then guys like Lynch will occasionally take a good mark etc. I felt like the backline hung in there and worked away at it.

The forward line has been in a state of flux all season with players coming in and out of the team - Wallis has been the constant, Bruce is new to the team, and Vandameeer is new to senior AFL footy but has made a really bright start. Around them Naughton, Schache, West, and Dale, plus Lloyd and Gowers, and Richards have been in and out of the forward line through form and injuries - isn't it natural at this stage that we wouldn't be as cohesive in that area?

Or is that a cop out?

I don't think that's unreasonable. A lot of the malaise when we're playing poorly can be traced back to set up and intent between the arcs I think......noting it may only just seem that way because you can't see the whole ground on TV.

You're also right about the forward line, and it shows that without Lloyd or Dickson in the team, and with Dale putting in lackadaisical performances the mix we have is light on for quality forward craft and nous.

[josie]

I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet

Not on your lonesome-I agree. Schache also a reliable goal kicker-unlike most of rest of team.

[jeemak]

Not sure where to post this but here seems as good a place as any:

TERRY WALLACE’S DEEP DIVE INTO THE BULLDOGS’ WORRYING PATTERNS (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/07/29/terry-wallaces-deep-dive-into-the-bulldogs-worrying-patterns/)

Terry Wallace has taken a deep dive into some worrying trends at Western Bulldogs over a 15-game stretch.

The Bulldogs could be outside the top eight by the end of the weekend after they were comprehensively beaten by reigning premiers Richmond to the tune of 41 points on Wednesday night.

peaking on SEN’s The Match Committee, Wallace assessed the manner in which the Dogs have been beaten in recent times and the question marks over their adaptability against well-structured sides.

“There is an absolute pattern occurring, in a matter of fact, it’s occurred for longer than that (this season),” the former Bulldogs coach said.

“In their last 15 games that they’ve played only one game, which was last weekend in the wet and slippery conditions against the Gold Coast, only one game has been decided by less than 24 points.

“They’ve either won every game by four-plus goals or they’ve been beaten every game by four-plus goals in 15 games.

“Who have they beaten this season? They’ve beaten 10th, 12th, 14th and 17th with one win against a top eight side in Essendon. They have beaten sides who are either immature or that lack real genuine organisation and cohesion.

“This is their losing margins this year: 52 (points), 39, 52, 41 – they’ve been belted when they’ve got beaten. So that’s against Collingwood (ninth), St Kilda (fifth), Carlton (11th) and Richmond (3rd).

“What are those sides to me? Most of them are good sides but what they are is they are disciplined and organised in their game structures and game plans.

“The young sides and the lack of organisation sides the Doggies are beating, the sides who work them out and figure them out, they don’t beat.

“When they get beaten, what beats them? It is absolutely clear what beats them – it’s sides who control the ball against the Bulldogs. Their inside 50 effectiveness drops from a win where it’s 49 per cent … to in a loss it’s 35 per cent. They are 14 per cent different if they are not allowed to play their own natural game.

“If they’re not allowed to play their natural game and the pressure comes back on them the other way, they fall apart.”

The Dogs have a quick turnaround before playing Port Adelaide at Adelaide Oval on Monday night.

Is this what constitutes a deep dive now does it?

Team is good when they show up and it's on their terms. Team not good when they don't and it's not.

[Danjul]

Is this what constitutes a deep dive now does it?

Team is good when they show up and it's on their terms. Team not good when they don't and it's not.
I don’t believe it’s the team showing up or not.

The trouble is every time they have played they have the same game plan with the same key players.

Last year Cordy (one of my favourite players) was killed with bigger key forwards repeatedly kicking personal bests. So where is the only place we play him. On a big key forward. Which his talent is wasted. Sure we have seen him slide along the ground to touch the ball on the goal line , but the game plan is only generating half of what he is capable of.

Now we are seeing The Bont and English and Bruce go the same way.

Time to base the game plan on football theory and not business management feel good sessions.

[jeemak]

Hahaha, I was wondering why players arrive to training in smart casual and with their laptops.

[Happy Days]

I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet

Schache is fine in the wet. He proved it last year.

The problem is when he doesn't feel like trying, which he also proved last year.

[bornadog]

Is this what constitutes a deep dive now does it?

Team is good when they show up and it's on their terms. Team not good when they don't and it's not.

I thought it was just stating the obvious with no real analysis

[jeemak]

I thought it was just stating the obvious with no real analysis

Instead of the first sentence reading Terry Wallace has taken a deep dive into some worrying trends at Western Bulldogs over a 15-game stretch. it should have said Terry Wallace has not reviewed data properly, uses the outcomes of his poor data analysis to form a view of the Western Bulldogs whilst ignoring other glaring issues that impact performance.

Unless he's talking about preseason, in the last fifteen games we've played in two games that have been decided by less than 25 points, actually, two within the last fourteen. In the eight weeks prior to the first of the two in that fourteen, we played in three games decided by less than four goals and won all of them, having won another by 25 points.

Who does this shit and puts it to print? Now I went for 22 games because that's the length of a home and away season. I wonder what the norm in a home and away season for winning games decided under four goals is. Is five a lot?

[GVGjr]

Not sure where to post this but here seems as good a place as any:

TERRY WALLACE’S DEEP DIVE INTO THE BULLDOGS’ WORRYING PATTERNS (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/07/29/terry-wallaces-deep-dive-into-the-bulldogs-worrying-patterns/)

Terry Wallace has taken a deep dive into some worrying trends at Western Bulldogs over a 15-game stretch.

The Bulldogs could be outside the top eight by the end of the weekend after they were comprehensively beaten by reigning premiers Richmond to the tune of 41 points on Wednesday night.

peaking on SEN’s The Match Committee, Wallace assessed the manner in which the Dogs have been beaten in recent times and the question marks over their adaptability against well-structured sides.

“There is an absolute pattern occurring, in a matter of fact, it’s occurred for longer than that (this season),” the former Bulldogs coach said.

“In their last 15 games that they’ve played only one game, which was last weekend in the wet and slippery conditions against the Gold Coast, only one game has been decided by less than 24 points.

“They’ve either won every game by four-plus goals or they’ve been beaten every game by four-plus goals in 15 games.

“Who have they beaten this season? They’ve beaten 10th, 12th, 14th and 17th with one win against a top eight side in Essendon. They have beaten sides who are either immature or that lack real genuine organisation and cohesion.

“This is their losing margins this year: 52 (points), 39, 52, 41 – they’ve been belted when they’ve got beaten. So that’s against Collingwood (ninth), St Kilda (fifth), Carlton (11th) and Richmond (3rd).

“What are those sides to me? Most of them are good sides but what they are is they are disciplined and organised in their game structures and game plans.

“The young sides and the lack of organisation sides the Doggies are beating, the sides who work them out and figure them out, they don’t beat.

“When they get beaten, what beats them? It is absolutely clear what beats them – it’s sides who control the ball against the Bulldogs. Their inside 50 effectiveness drops from a win where it’s 49 per cent … to in a loss it’s 35 per cent. They are 14 per cent different if they are not allowed to play their own natural game.

“If they’re not allowed to play their natural game and the pressure comes back on them the other way, they fall apart.”

The Dogs have a quick turnaround before playing Port Adelaide at Adelaide Oval on Monday night.

It's a point well made by Plough and I'm sure Bevo would be aware of this but figuring out the answers required to turn things around has proven difficult for him

[GVGjr]

Whilst I appreciate some of the areas in the opening post are around structure and longer term work towards area's I can still pick a few that I think can be fixed during and at the end of the season:

1) Be prepared to employ a run with player. It doesn't need to be every week but Martin posed a huge challenge for us before the game and we didn't do a lot to curb that.
2) Be consistent with team selections. If Schache is made to earn his spot and is dropped after one poor game in conditions he was never suited for why is Bruce picked each with just one good game behind him.
3) Be prepared to more honest and ruthless at the end of the season with the players that are retained
4) Be prepared to bypass the sports scientists instructions and get players to do extra work on their set shot goal kicking. I'm over seeing tricky goals packaged up on the highlight reels and would prefer to see a more efficient conversion performance by our forwards
Efficient goal kicking is a boring aspect that I enjoy and as Mofra often points out, if a player like Casboult can improve everyone can improve

[Bulldog4life]

I'm pretty sure I'm on my lonesome here but i think Schache fixes some of our forward line issues.

He doesn't get tangled up with Bruce for every entry, he makes repeated leads and can actually finish. Not a world beater by any stretch but imo makes us less predictable. Just don't play him in the wet

Malthouse tried that out with Beasley until Beaser had a day out in the wet.

[Doc26]

He also needs some help!

With Naughton either ineffectual or injured we have no other aerial threats in the forward half and it means Bruce is drawing a crowd whenever he goes near the ball. No surprise that his best performance was in a game that Schache played and did well to draw other defenders away and opened up some leading lanes.

And are you able to provide some fact on his playing weight now as opposed to in other years? Or are you just guessing?


Guessing from looking at him compared to previous years

I’m not aware of Josh Bruce’s weight comparison year on year but can think of very few modern day player’s going around with his body shape. Hawkins would be the closest but at face value Jack looks leaner and seems more mobile than Josh. Josh could do worse than to model himself on Hawkins who are both in the twilight years.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Schache perfectly compliments our forward line. He's exactly what we need along with a natural small forward. Problem with Schache is his efforts. If he'd just pull his finger out he'd have a permanent spot in the team on his ability. Hopefully it clicks for him soon otherwise what a waste.

I agree. I would liken him to Port’s Todd Marshall. In fact all of Marshall’s average stats this year line up almost exactly to Schache’s career averages.

Marshall gives Port’s forward-line a different look, is often a handful for the second or third best tall defender, and importantly keeps his opponent accountable when the high ball comes in (stopping them from being a second or third up against Dixon). He is also very accurate with his limited shots on goal.

Marshall out is a big win for us, guaranteed he would have kicked a bag on us while everyone is busy worrying about Dixon. I’d say likewise Port would view us not playing Schache as a win for them.

[Mofra]

I’m not aware of Josh Bruce’s weight comparison year on year but can think of very few modern day player’s going around with his body shape. Hawkins would be the closest but at face value Jack looks leaner and seems more mobile than Josh. Josh could do worse than to model himself on Hawkins who are both in the twilight years.
Hawkins is a star who has rarely (if ever) played as the lone tall in the F50.
He's also part of a F50 system that went out in two draft/trade periods and prioritised ground-ball pressure to surround their talls with (Dahlhaus, Atkins, Miers, Rohan, Narkle, etc).

I don't think Bruce's body shape is the issue, it's our system of bringing the ball in when the defence has made position. We do generate scoring chains from the back half and move the ball quickly, meaning we can score when the defence is out of position. Once they're set we seem clueless, with Wallis being smart enough to sneak into a good position our only avenue to goal.

[kruder]

Anyone think Tom McDonald could be a handy addition to our backline?

He has been pushed out of defence when the dees were struggling to score in 2018(kicked 50 odd) and since they have recruited Lever and May. He is lost forward and would continue to be lost forward in our forward line but I reckon he would add value down back.

I cant see why we cant play Cordy/Keath/McDonald in defence with either Keath/McDonald playing as an intercepter.

Not sure of his contract status.

[Grantysghost]

Anyone think Tom McDonald could be a handy addition to our backline?

He has been pushed out of defence when the dees were struggling to score in 2018(kicked 50 odd) and since they have recruited Lever and May. He is lost forward and would continue to be lost forward in our forward line but I reckon he would add value down back.

I cant see why we cant play Cordy/Keath/McDonald in defence with either Keath/McDonald playing as an intercepter.

Not sure of his contract status.

I like the thought, looking for the next Crozier (player not utilised at current team) but Tmac is a poor kick and drives Demons fans insane. I vote for no more poor kicks in our team :cool:

[kruder]

I like the thought, looking for the next Crozier (player not utilised at current team) but Tmac is a poor kick and drives Demons fans insane. I vote for no more poor kicks in our team :cool:

I'm not sure his kicking out of defence would be an issue. He is signed till 22 I believe.

[EasternWest]

Anyone think Tom McDonald could be a handy addition to our backline?

He has been pushed out of defence when the dees were struggling to score in 2018(kicked 50 odd) and since they have recruited Lever and May. He is lost forward and would continue to be lost forward in our forward line but I reckon he would add value down back.

I cant see why we cant play Cordy/Keath/McDonald in defence with either Keath/McDonald playing as an intercepter.

Not sure of his contract status.

Hard pass.

[azabob]

Hard pass.

How come? Wasn't he very good as a defender?

[Grantysghost]

I'm not sure his kicking out of defence would be an issue. He is signed till 22 I believe.

Sorry I was talking about his field kicking. It was always heart in mouth stuff out of defence. He is a decent set shot.
Talking to Dees friends they say hes lost his athleticism which was a strength since his knee injury last year.
I watched last week's game he was terrible, had no lateral movement.
I actually quizzed someone he was that bad as to what's wrong with him.

[EasternWest]

How come? Wasn't he very good as a defender?

I just don't rate him. I can't really give you a better response.

[Mofra]

I'm actually happy with the Cordy-Keith combo right now. Worried about depth, but reports suggest Raak is 194cm so we will have a developing KPD on the list which is something we all want.

Our forwardline needs work.

[azabob]

I just don't rate him. I can't really give you a better response.

Thats cool. Cause I can't give you a better answer to why he is potentially good...

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I just don't rate him. I can't really give you a better response.

Pretty much this.

He's a straight line player, poor on the ground and poor with lateral movement.

[Sedat]

Pretty much this.

He's a straight line player, poor on the ground and poor with lateral movement.
Yep. He once had a great season kicking 50+ goals. So did Jack Anthony.

[soupman]

Would Tom Lynch (obviously the fiery redhead version) be gettable?

Adelaide are happy to pick and choose which of their players are too old for their next tilt, but Lynch is 29 so 5050 on being there. Is a great link up key forward that would give us a hard working target that could offer more than just a deadweight in the forward 50. It'd mean we would be properly committed to a 3 tall setup, with two of them approaching the end of their careers, but i think he would really give us something we don't have and take the pressure off JUH having to be something straight away.

In terms of cost maybe similiar to Keath? I know we aren't on great terms with Adelaide, and also don't have many picks to pass on considering the whole points debacle we are facing. If we did something where our first rounder is moved to them for a couple of 2nd rounders of similiar points value, that could work. Also this will be unpopular but Lewis Young could hold some interest to them. I wouldn't want to give him up cheaply but frozen out/SA boy means that they should already be in his ear, and if we cant be bothered playing him we might as well move him for someone we will play.

[kruder]

Yep. He once had a great season kicking 50+ goals. So did Jack Anthony.

Wasn't talking about the forward but the defender. He has had more than one good season at Melbourne. Been played out of position for mine.

[kruder]

I'm actually happy with the Cordy-Keith combo right now. Worried about depth, but reports suggest Raak is 194cm so we will have a developing KPD on the list which is something we all want.

Our forwardline needs work.

Ahh Raak is the academy kid? Have you seen him live?

[Remi Moses]

McDonald runs on tram tracks
Ordinary kick , and he’s on big coin
Umm, no thanks

[kruder]

Just realised bigfooty discussed also lol