How do we really rate our list?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

There have been numerous comments made regarding our list. Some polar opposites. Some have suggested it needs and overhaul (me included in frustration) whilst others have said the talent is there, it's more between the ears.
So I thought it'd be worthwhile to pick apart the list dividing it into 3 groups:

1) Who is best 22 either now or capable of being in the future?
2) Who is maybe not best 22 each week but is valuable as depth for when injuries occur? Fringe players
3) Who can be replaced without really realising they were gone?


Obviously this is subjective but try to think of the three group outside of the Western Bulldogs. i.e who would be best 22 in any list? If you were doing the old school yard team pick, and those players were available amongst opposition players, would you pick them in your best 22? Would you pick them for depth? Or would you be picking them purely because you had to make up the numbers? Be pragmatic about it. We obviously can't have a team full of Dusty Martins and Bontempellis. Best 22 will need to consist of fringe players as well.

Now obvioulsy there are players who we haven't seen enough (or anything) of in order to make a call. Think Weightman. High draft pick but after two games its difficult to place him. But gun to the head, which bucket would you put him in right now?

For me, in no particular order:

1) Best 22 (20/45) 45%
Mitch Wallis
Marcus Bontempelli
Josh Dunkley
Bailey Smith
Lachie Hunter
Hayden Crozier
Easton Wood
Jack Macrae
Tom Liberatore
Laitham Vandermeer
Bailey Dale
Tim English
Aaron Naughton
Bailey Williams
Caleb Daniel
Jason Johannisen
Alex Keath
Cody Weightman
Rhylee West
Zaine Cordy

2) Depth (11/45) 24%
Louis Butler
Matt Suckling
Lewis Young
Josh Schache
Taylor Duryea
Toby McLean
Josh Bruce
Ed Richards
Sam Lloyd
Patrick Lipinski
Lin Jong


3) Making up the numbers (14/45) 31%
Riley Garcia
Jackson Trengove
Ben Cavarra
Buku Khamis
Billy Gowers
Tory Dickson (Best 22 talent but his days are past him)
Callum Porter
Fergus Greene
Ryan Gardner
Will Hayes
Bradley Lynch
Roarke Smith
Lachie Young
Jordon Sweet

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I've been banging on about the list for a few weeks now but we rely on too few which is why when we're challenged by good teams, we go to water consistently.

We have too many similar types in the midfield who can accumulate but pose no real threat to the opposition, whilst our forward half is diabolical and completely devoid of any craft. Not only do we find ourselves in dumb positions or give away unnecessary free kicks, we've been a trampoline for sometime. IIRC we are one of the easiest sides in the comp to score against from rebound - that shouldn't be a surprising stat.

Our list relies on 110% intensity at the contest and at the man. This is NOT sustainable.

Good sides can be 'off' and still win. When we look 'off' in the first 10 minutes of a game, you can essentially chalk up a 6+ goal loss. So, is it a pure list problem or is it also a tactical problem? I think there's an element of both.

Let's look at the players on our list who can hurt opposition;

Bont - Horribly out of form at the moment.
Smith - Young and maybe tiring a little. He's a gem and he'll keep improving, hopefully he can become a goal kicker.
JJ - Nowhere near the player he was. Looks great against crap opposition though.
Naughton - One of our few genuine match winners. Injury history is becoming a concern.

That is literally it. YES, Macrae, Hunter and Daniel are great footballers and keys to our side too. You might even be able to make a case for them to sit on the above list, but they can get 30+ and we can still be belted by 6+ goals. Nothing to take away from them though, very good players and Libba should probably be included in the same breath.

There's nobody else who is 'dangerous'. Vandermeer is showing signs he can elevate himself to that level which is really encouraging, but do the opposition worry about Lloyd? Schache? Dale? Lipinski? McLean? Richards? Wallis? Suckling? The list goes on.

We are desperate for x2 zippy forwards. Cameron is a special talent, but somebody like Butler would have been handy (had a great year) whilst Bolton has gone to another level at the Tigers. We need some forwards who have an appetite for the contest/tackling and have goal nous.

A player with raw pace through the wings would be handy too, as these types can slice through zones. Explains why we chased Smith from Hawthorn (and Martin from Carlton), but when we didn't get them we kind of... gave up. Including our draft selections (Weightman isn't quick).

We have some other issues with the list (and coaching) that could be addressed but let's start with the above. It can be done quickly (see Carlton, St Kilda and Port Adelaide). Forwards in the mould of Lloyd, Dale, Schache and Wallis are a dying breed - we need to get with the times.

[Sedat]

Richmond has an assembly line of these zippy small pressure forward types, so many in fact that they can easily let someone like Butler go and also easily drop a Daniel Rioli. Jake Aarts is a rookie from the VFL system and has seamlessly embraced the systematic way Richmond plays. Cavarra might become one for us. Weightman possibly as well, although he doesn't have the leg speed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I've been banging on about the list for a few weeks now but we rely on too few which is why when we're challenged by good teams, we go to water consistently.

We have too many similar types in the midfield who can accumulate but pose no real threat to the opposition, whilst our forward half is diabolical and completely devoid of any craft. Not only do we find ourselves in dumb positions or give away unnecessary free kicks, we've been a trampoline for sometime. IIRC we are one of the easiest sides in the comp to score against from rebound - that shouldn't be a surprising stat.

Our list relies on 110% intensity at the contest and at the man. This is NOT sustainable.

Good sides can be 'off' and still win. When we look 'off' in the first 10 minutes of a game, you can essentially chalk up a 6+ goal loss. So, is it a pure list problem or is it also a tactical problem? I think there's an element of both.

Let's look at the players on our list who can hurt opposition;

Bont - Horribly out of form at the moment.
Smith - Young and maybe tiring a little. He's a gem and he'll keep improving, hopefully he can become a goal kicker.
JJ - Nowhere near the player he was. Looks great against crap opposition though.
Naughton - One of our few genuine match winners. Injury history is becoming a concern.

That is literally it. YES, Macrae, Hunter and Daniel are great footballers and keys to our side too. You might even be able to make a case for them to sit on the above list, but they can get 30+ and we can still be belted by 6+ goals. Nothing to take away from them though, very good players and Libba should probably be included in the same breath.

There's nobody else who is 'dangerous'. Vandermeer is showing signs he can elevate himself to that level which is really encouraging, but do the opposition worry about Lloyd? Schache? Dale? Lipinski? McLean? Richards? Wallis? Suckling? The list goes on.

We are desperate for x2 zippy forwards. Cameron is a special talent, but somebody like Butler would have been handy (had a great year) whilst Bolton has gone to another level at the Tigers. We need some forwards who have an appetite for the contest/tackling and have goal nous.

A player with raw pace through the wings would be handy too, as these types can slice through zones. Explains why we chased Smith from Hawthorn (and Martin from Carlton), but when we didn't get them we kind of... gave up. Including our draft selections (Weightman isn't quick).

We have some other issues with the list (and coaching) that could be addressed but let's start with the above. It can be done quickly (see Carlton, St Kilda and Port Adelaide). Forwards in the mould of Lloyd, Dale, Schache and Wallis are a dying breed - we need to get with the times.

Great post and nicely summarised. If you actually look independently at our forwards, mids and backs it quickly becomes apparent that each line is extremely one dimensional (except the players you pointed out). It essentially means on each line we have no point of difference. So the opposition can implement 1 game plan to counter each line and it'll stifle the entire line. Lloyd, Dale, Wallis, Schache (even Weightman perhaps), West. They all play the same. Then our mids in Libba, Macrae, Mclean, Hunter, Dunkley etc. Again all very much the same player. I hate to say it but Bailey Smith is turning into a similar player given the way we are playing. Then you've got our defenders in Crozier, Wood, Williams, Butler etc. Again all very similar. Some good players here but there is no point of difference. We aren't complementing skills, rather we're trying death by 1000 cuts. JJ and Daniel are the exceptions here but the former goes missing when the pressures on the the latter can be exposed due to his height.

The comparison with the Saints is a good one. Their list up until last year was average at best. Now they've recruited ok during the offseason but I wouldn't say they added amazing talent. Hill yes but he's actually had little impact this season. Butler, Howard even Jones were average players at best in their previous teams. But what they've got now is a nice complement of players. A great mix of speed (Hill, Gresham, Clarke etc), contested ball (Hannerbry, Jones, Steele, Sinclair), one-on-one defenders (Carlisle, Howard), intercept defenders (Coffield, Ross, Carlisle is good at this too), tall forwards (King, Marshall/Ryder), medium forwards (Membrey, Billings) and small forwards (Butler, Gresham. Heck theyre even the first team to effectively implement two ruckman because Ryder and Marshall complement eachother really well. Now through smart coaching they've got a really cohesive team where each one know's their role but also the role of their teammates. Each one is giving their all and it's paying dividends big time. Compared to us where we have the same players on each line trying to do the same thing. You can quickly see how we can become so one dimensional and how teams can easily stifle us - there's no need for them to consider alternatives.

I think our list on paper is decent enough. It's probably more we are too one dimensional and our gameday tactics don't help the cause.

[SonofScray]

The list isn’t in awful shape, there is some dead wood we’ve carried for too long and some issues with development and our selection going hot and cold.

There is enough talent on the list that when it clicks we are a finale side and real threat on our day.

Our issues are built around tactics and deployment.

[1eyedog]

The list isn’t in awful shape, there is some dead wood we’ve carried for too long and some issues with development and our selection going hot and cold.

There is enough talent on the list that when it clicks we are a finale side and real threat on our day.

Our issues are built around tactics and deployment.

Coaches box?

[azabob]

Coaches box?

Why would keeping the majority of coaches since 2015 impact our on field performance?

Its not like AFL footy changes every year and clubs need to come up with innovative game plans, fresh perspective, different voices and ideas.

[Bullies]

Probably most concerning is the list of players mentioned below who won't make it and have been left on the list for too long. You can see none of these guys are going to be long term players yet we have persisted with them. You could also throw in Jong who is continually injured. That makes it one long list. In 2016 we had a lot of depth and our 16 - 22 players were very good and knew their role.

3) Making up the numbers (14/45) 31%

Jackson Trengove
Ben Cavarra
Buku Khamis
Billy Gowers
Tory Dickson (Best 22 talent but his days are past him)
Callum Porter
Fergus Greene
Ryan Gardner
Will Hayes
Bradley Lynch
Roarke Smith
Lachie Young
Jordon Sweet

[comrade]

Probably most concerning is the list of players mentioned below who won't make it and have been left on the list for too long. You can see none of these guys are going to be long term players yet we have persisted with them. You could also throw in Jong who is continually injured. That makes it one long list. In 2016 we had a lot of depth and our 16 - 22 players were very good and knew their role.

3) Making up the numbers (14/45) 31%

Jackson Trengove
Ben Cavarra
Buku Khamis
Billy Gowers
Tory Dickson (Best 22 talent but his days are past him)
Callum Porter
Fergus Greene
Ryan Gardner
Will Hayes
Bradley Lynch
Roarke Smith
Lachie Young
Jordon Sweet

I think Cavarra and Lachie Young both have plenty to offer. The rest, not so much.

[Bullies]

I think Cavarra and Lachie Young both have plenty to offer. The rest, not so much. Apologies for Lachie Young. Agree on that one. Cavarra has been injured for the past 2 years so may need to make a call on that.

[Vred]

Probably most concerning is the list of players mentioned below who won't make it and have been left on the list for too long. You can see none of these guys are going to be long term players yet we have persisted with them. You could also throw in Jong who is continually injured. That makes it one long list. In 2016 we had a lot of depth and our 16 - 22 players were very good and knew their role.

3) Making up the numbers (14/45) 31%

Jackson Trengove
Ben Cavarra
Buku Khamis
Billy Gowers
Tory Dickson (Best 22 talent but his days are past him)
Callum Porter
Fergus Greene
Ryan Gardner
Will Hayes
Bradley Lynch
Roarke Smith
Lachie Young
Jordon Sweet

Am I the only one who cares for Will Hayes? I remember him doing some very good stuff with ball in hand last year, had a great tank and ran for days. I was never actually ''worried'' when Hayes had the ball and think he could develop into a half decent footballer with more AFL games under his belt.

[bornadog]

Probably most concerning is the list of players mentioned below who won't make it and have been left on the list for too long. You can see none of these guys are going to be long term players yet we have persisted with them. You could also throw in Jong who is continually injured. That makes it one long list. In 2016 we had a lot of depth and our 16 - 22 players were very good and knew their role.

3) Making up the numbers (14/45) 31%

Jackson Trengove
Ben Cavarra
Buku Khamis
Billy Gowers
Tory Dickson (Best 22 talent but his days are past him)
Callum Porter
Fergus Greene
Ryan Gardner
Will Hayes
Bradley Lynch
Roarke Smith
Lachie Young
Jordon Sweet


I think Cavarra and Lachie Young both have plenty to offer. The rest, not so much.


Apologies for Lachie Young. Agree on that one. Cavarra has been injured for the past 2 years so may need to make a call on that.

I pretty much agree with your list, although I am unsure about Sweet as we haven't seen him at AFL level and being a ruckman would be worth to keep on. I am not sold on Cavarra but agree La Young should be kept on.

[hujsh]

I'd hope Fergus is capable of more than making up the numbers. Another one that looked good in 2018 but has been injured since. But if he's fit now and not getting a game then maybe he's just not going to make it.

[GVGjr]

Am I the only one who cares for Will Hayes? I remember him doing some very good stuff with ball in hand last year, had a great tank and ran for days. I was never actually ''worried'' when Hayes had the ball and think he could develop into a half decent footballer with more AFL games under his belt.

It's a surprise to me that he hasn't been played and especially given Hunters absence. Apparently he was one of the fittest guys when the team returned from the break. Has he even made the emergency list for any of the games?

[GVGjr]

I'd hope Fergus is capable of more than making up the numbers. Another one that looked good in 2018 but has been injured since. But if he's fit now and not getting a game then maybe he's just not going to make it.

While some injuries have played a part in Greene not playing last year we have tended to pump games into some of the younger players and then back away from developing them further. Perhaps Dale was the preferred option early in the season but Greene needs to be putting in the hard yards and impressing the coaches
I think I read the worrying sign for him might be that his goal kicking accuracy seems to have gone backwards