Always Right Match Committee - Round 16 Vs Eagles 2020

[Scraggers]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. The Match Committee threads has been named after long time WOOF member Always Right who tragically passed away in March 2018.


If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make after our Round 14 match against Geelong (and the BYE) for our Round 16, 2020 match against the West Coast Eagles at Metricon on Sunday Night?

For those new to these threads, please give a brief explanation for your changes ... this would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[comrade]

Out: Bruce
In: Anyone

Seriously, this guy is robbing the club of 700k a year at this point.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Out: Bruce
In: Anyone

Seriously, this guy is robbing the club of 700k a year at this point.

I'd be embarrassed to take the paycheck if I were him.

[EasternWest]

Out: Johannisen, Dickson, Vandemeer, Wood, Bruce.

In: Schache and anyone left except for Suckling.

[comrade]

I'd be embarrassed to take the paycheck if I were him.

I'd be embarrassed for the bloke that keeps picking him each week.

[Sedat]

We've got Nic Nat to combat next game. If the Geelong gumbies can get 50 hitouts against us, Nic Nat might crack the ton

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We've got Nic Nat to combat next game. If the Geelong gumbies can get 50 hitouts against us, Nic Nat might crack the ton

Easy to get 50 Hitouts when you decide to ruck Dunkley for long periods

[Bullies]

Play Sweet. I don't understand what we are doing with the ruck. Can anyone talk me through as to what is the thought process of rucking Dunkley. Dunkley was one of our best players at stoppages and he now has to contest the ruck contests.

If English is injured spell him.

[westbulldog]

Out Dickson, Vandemeer, Wood, Bruce, Gardner

In Le Young, Sweet, Greene, West ,Lynch

9 day break might change these though

[Rance Fan]

Out English
In Sweet

Can't let Nic Nat push Tim around. It will destroy his game

[ratsmac]

out- Vander, Wood, Bruce, Gardner
In - Cordy, Schache, Suckling, Lipinski

[Hotdog60]

Out: Bruce, Wood and Vander
In: Sweet, Cordy and Lynch

[comrade]

I'm enjoying the Bruce out calls here, but let's be honest. Bevo got him from St Kilda and Bevo is playing him.

[bornadog]

I think Duryea will come in for Wood

I was happy for Dickson to come in, but he looked cooked. - Greene to take his spot

Cordy for Gardner

[comrade]

I think Duryea will come in for Wood

I was happy for Dickson to come in, but he looked cooked. - Greene to take his spot

Cordy for Gardner

Cordy for Wood. Gardner was the least of our problems in defence.

Dickson is 100% cooked and it was a shocking selection from our coaching team, but what's new?

[Remi Moses]

I think a fair chunk of the fan base wanted Dicko in
But he’s cooked
He looks like he’s got a few extra KG’s as well

[Grantysghost]

Out : Bruce, Wood, Vanders, Dickson
In : Cordy, Duryea, Cavarra, Lew Young

[Happy Days]

Out: Bruce

In: Me

Its been 27 years Dogs. I’m ready to do absolutely nothing for 4 quarters but if I get in the way of any bullet passes I promise I can hit a set shot from 20m out straight in front. It’s time.

[Happy Days]

My dog Shane also ready to step in for Dickson.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think a fair chunk of the fan base wanted Dicko in
But he’s cooked
He looks like he’s got a few extra KG’s as well

What’s worse than the selection itself is the message it sends to players like Cavarra. Surely the MC could see Dicko wasn’t ready. He looked miles off it.

[EasternWest]

Out: Bruce

In: Me

Its been 27 years Dogs. I’m ready to do absolutely nothing for 4 quarters but if I get in the way of any bullet passes I promise I can hit a set shot from 20m out straight in front. It’s time.

I wanna see you get hit in the numbers, twice.

I second Happy Days in.

[bornadog]

Dickson is 100% cooked and it was a shocking selection from our coaching team, but what's new?

I can't agree on this point. He has been a great player for us and was ready to play after building up at training. His performance tonight that is different.

[SonofScray]

In:
Doc, Cordy, Young, West, Sweet
Out:
Wood, Gardner, Bruce, Dutch, English (rest)

[Happy Days]

I wanna see you get hit in the numbers, twice.

I second Happy Days in.

I’ve checked the club website and #69 is free.

[Sedat]

I'm enjoying the Bruce out calls here, but let's be honest. Bevo got him from St Kilda and Bevo is playing him.
Yep, it's just not going to happen.

Against West Coast, Sweet needs to come in and give English a rest. Nic Nat is the worst possible match-ups for English and it will be a little embarrassing having Dunks come up against him.

Sweet in and instructed to absolutely bash and crash Nic Nat at every opportunity until he cannot run. Bruce is the 2nd ruck and needs to do the same, just bash and crash in all game.

If Duryea is ready he is the ideal replacement for Wood. Vandermeer will be difficult to replace - maybe Dale who could play wing with his pace (which we desperately lacked after 1/4 time tonight). Will Dicko be dropped after 1 game? I suspect not, but gee he was poor tonight.

[jeemak]

Out: Johannisen, Dickson, Vandemeer, Wood, Bruce.

In: Schache and anyone left except for Suckling.

I love this.

[jeemak]

Play Sweet. I don't understand what we are doing with the ruck. Can anyone talk me through as to what is the thought process of rucking Dunkley. Dunkley was one of our best players at stoppages and he now has to contest the ruck contests.

If English is injured spell him.

The coach has said Sweet isn't ready for AFL footy just yet a couple of times. Whether it's right or wrong I don't know, but that's the view.

[jeemak]

I'm enjoying the Bruce out calls here, but let's be honest. Bevo got him from St Kilda and Bevo is playing him.

I think this one may have been a Baines call, not a Bevo call.

[Mantis]

The coach has said Sweet isn't ready for AFL footy just yet a couple of times. Whether it's right or wrong I don't know, but that's the view.

But he’s ok playing Gardner, Butler and Weightman who are all in the same boat?

Different rules, for different fools!

[azabob]

I think this one may have been a Baines call, not a Bevo call.

Gut feel or more?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

But he’s ok playing Gardner, Butler and Weightman who are all in the same boat?

Different rules, for different fools!

This highlights our bizarre methodology at match committee doesn't it?

The fact we've allowed ourselves to go into a season with a young ruck who isn't ready for a full year and has his own struggles (English), supported by a rookie (Sweet) so that we have to play one of our best mids as a ruck - which cooked Dunkley last night - is some of the worst list management I have EVER seen.

Poor Dunkley was absolutely spent while English rested forward and Bruce continued to do SFA.

[GVGjr]

In's - Suckling, Cordy, Schache, Duryea
Out's - Dickson, Wood, Bruce, Vandermeer

[comrade]

In's - Suckling, Cordy, Schache, Duryea
Out's - Dickson, Wood, Bruce, Vandermeer

Looks about right but doesn’t address the ruck issue.

[G-Mo77]

Looks about right but doesn’t address the ruck issue.

Is Ling Jong healthy? I kid........

I'd just drop Engligh and play Bruce there most of the game.

[angelopetraglia]

This highlights our bizarre methodology at match committee doesn't it?

The fact we've allowed ourselves to go into a season with a young ruck who isn't ready for a full year and has his own struggles (English), supported by a rookie (Sweet) so that we have to play one of our best mids as a ruck - which cooked Dunkley last night - is some of the worst list management I have EVER seen.

Poor Dunkley was absolutely spent while English rested forward and Bruce continued to do SFA.

We recruit Trengove who is 197cm. He has played that backup Ruck role before. Kane Cornes was mentioning that he has seen him do it many times and is more than capable. We don't play him either.

[comrade]

Is Ling Jong healthy? I kid........

I'd just drop Engligh and play Bruce there most of the game.

I am all for giving Timmy a spell, but I don't want to see Bruce for the rest of 2020. Done his dash.

[angelopetraglia]

I can't agree on this point. He has been a great player for us and was ready to play after building up at training. His performance tonight that is different.

He is playing mickey mouse games of football. That's no real guide. Why not bring him back against lesser opposition? It was too much to expect him to step straight into the cauldron against an outfit like Geelong. Also, last night highlighted that in tight games, especially at night in QLD with the dew you need genuine crumbing forwards. Cav is that type of player ... he was better suited than Dicko in my opinion. The match committee got it wrong.

[Mitcha]

The coach has said Sweet isn't ready for AFL footy just yet a couple of times. Whether it's right or wrong I don't know, but that's the view.
If this is true then why the hell name him as an emergency about a dozen times, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Mitcha]

Is Ling Jong healthy? I kid........

I'd just drop Engligh and play Bruce there most of the game.
What is with the thinking of dropping English but playing Bruce?, just interested.

[G-Mo77]

If this is true then why the hell name him as an emergency about a dozen times, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Nothing does when it comes to selecting the team.

A few weeks ago Lewis Young was injured and was not available however named as an emergency.

[G-Mo77]

What is with the thinking of dropping English but playing Bruce?, just interested.

English I think is injured and why they're not playing him ruck. Why play him at all then? Just drop him, play Bruce there or why not Trengove. We'll still get killed in the ruck but at least they won't get first use every single dam time like they did last night. That killed us!

[comrade]

I can't agree on this point. He has been a great player for us and was ready to play after building up at training. His performance tonight that is different.

Yeah, you're right. It was a great decision to bring him in.

[The bulldog tragician]

If Trengove is fit, he must play in the ruck. If he loses hit outs so be it. We are already being smashed, as well as burning out a midfielder who looked absolutely cooked when he had to be parked in the forward line in the last quarter. The sight of him attempting to wrestle against Hawkins in the Geelong forward line made me feel ill. If English can’t ruck over the ground get someone who can. Can you imagine what Naitanui will do to us next week. I feel even more ill.

[Grantysghost]

If Trengove is fit, he must play in the ruck. If he loses hit outs so be it. We are already being smashed, as well as burning out a midfielder who looked absolutely cooked when he had to be parked in the forward line in the last quarter. The sight of him attempting to wrestle against Hawkins in the Geelong forward line made me feel ill. If English can’t ruck over the ground get someone who can. Can you imagine what Naitanui will do to us next week. I feel even more ill.

He's fit. I agree if Sweet isn't ready, Jackson will bleed for the team.

[Grantysghost]

This thread on twitter by our communications man Nick Duxson is commenting on the scratch match currently under way v Cats.

https://twitter.com/nickduxson/status/1299497833922326528?s=09

https://i.postimg.cc/VLNSXJCL/C1-E19-D86-288-E-4371-8515-D3-F6-C2-F4-A0-C2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9zvFhFbv)



Edit : a solid win in the end .


FT �� 11.9 (75) �� 7.4 (46)


Big finish for the Dogs, with five goals to one in that final term.


Goals: Greene 3, Schache 2, Suckling 2, Garcia, Gowers, R. Smith, Weightman


Might be Fergus Greene time ?

[Grantysghost]

This thread on twitter by our communications man Nick Duxson is commenting on the scratch match currently under way v Cats.

https://twitter.com/nickduxson/status/1299497833922326528?s=09

https://i.postimg.cc/VLNSXJCL/C1-E19-D86-288-E-4371-8515-D3-F6-C2-F4-A0-C2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9zvFhFbv)

Sorry if in wrong thread Gary.

[GVGjr]

Looks about right but doesn’t address the ruck issue.

It's English all the way or we need to add Trengove instead of Schache

[GVGjr]

Sorry if in wrong thread Gary.

All good

[jazzadogs]

There are two key factors behind English being a non-factor the last few games:
1) he is injured and/or overworked - obviously the sprained ankle, but he was labouring even before that
2) he is being played out of position for large portions of the game

If English is in the side then he needs to be attending the majority of centre bounces and around the ground ruck contests. If he is not physically able to do that, then he should not play and somebody else (Trengrove, Sweet, Schache even) needs to come in and ruck.

I have everything crossed that Nicnat gets 'managed' next week, so we don't have to face him. There are definitely murmurs that it might happen.

[DOG GOD]

Out- wood, vanda, English, Dickson, Bruce
In- duryea, lipinski, Trengove, Cordy, Greene

[Grantysghost]

Out : Bruce, Wood, Vanders, Dickson
In : Cordy, Duryea, Cavarra, Lew Young

I think after another strong scratch match performance Greene deserves a chance.
So I'd change and bring him in for Dickson instead of Cavarra (sorry Cav).

[jeemak]

Gut feel or more?

Being head of list management at St Kilda when Bruce was recruited might have something to do with it I think. Could be wrong, of course.

[bornadog]

In's - Suckling, Cordy, Schache, Duryea
Out's - Dickson, Wood, Bruce, Vandermeer

I would go with this and Schache playing as second ruck. He has shown some good form in the ruck during 2019

[bornadog]

Yeah, you're right. It was a great decision to bring him in.

Easy to talk in hindsight

[GVGjr]

If Trengove is fit, he must play in the ruck. If he loses hit outs so be it. We are already being smashed, as well as burning out a midfielder who looked absolutely cooked when he had to be parked in the forward line in the last quarter. The sight of him attempting to wrestle against Hawkins in the Geelong forward line made me feel ill. If English can’t ruck over the ground get someone who can. Can you imagine what Naitanui will do to us next week. I feel even more ill.

I see a lot of merit in this approach, not sure the MC will though

[bornadog]

Being head of list management at St Kilda when Bruce was recruited might have something to do with it I think. Could be wrong, of course.

Whether it was Baines or not, Bruce has been a great contested mark and has kicked plenty of goals, so I had no problem in the decision at the strat of the year.

Prior to joining us he kicked 50, 38, 36, 4, (only played 3 games in 2018), and 36 last year.

[bornadog]

I see a lot of merit in this approach, not sure the MC will though

Against the Tigers Trengove looked so slow. Not sure he is the answer

[jeemak]

Whether it was Baines or not, Bruce has been a great contested mark and has kicked plenty of goals, so I had no problem in the decision at the strat of the year.

Prior to joining us he kicked 50, 38, 36, 4, (only played 3 games in 2018), and 36 last year.

Same. He still could be a good acquisition however, he needs to have a spell.

[CarnTheScray]

Doesn't matter they will beat us. 4 quarter team vs 1 quarter team.

[bornadog]

Same. He still could be a good acquisition however, he needs to have a spell.

As I said in another thread. Spell him now. Put him on a programme ready for 2021.

[bornadog]

Doesn't matter they will beat us. 4 quarter team vs 1 quarter team.

If you think about last night, we didn't throw the towel in for the four quarters. Geelong, zero goals in the first quarter, 3, then 2, and finally 5 in the last, but they were still 9 points behind with 5 minutes to go. We ran out of puff in the last - especially the final 10 minutes.

I think we will give WC a red hot go - but not with Dunkley in the ruck.

[Bulldog4life]

Whether it was Baines or not, Bruce has been a great contested mark and has kicked plenty of goals, so I had no problem in the decision at the strat of the year.

Prior to joining us he kicked 50, 38, 36, 4, (only played 3 games in 2018), and 36 last year.

He used to be a reliable kick for goal at the Saints too. Apart from the game where he kicked 6 straight he has been very iffy.

[The bulldog tragician]

Against the Tigers Trengove looked so slow. Not sure he is the answer

I’m not jumping with joy at a Trengove selection, he looked very slow and cumbersome in his one appearance but he has a big body to contest and wrestle. Let him do the bash and crash if we are conceding, by employing Dunkley or Macrae, that English can’t ruck all game.

In a close match like last night our complete non- competitiveness in the ruck, plus the fact that Dunkley was spent in the last quarter, was surely worth a couple of goals.

I’m open to someone explaining to me what the ruck strategy is meant to achieve, any advantages we’re somehow gaining. I don’t hear it from the coach, I’m not seeing it in the coverage.

[jeemak]

Hasn't he said that he thinks it gives us an extra around the ball and we're trying to leverage that as an advantage?

I think the strategy is really clear, though I'm not convinced it's the best one we can deploy.

[Grantysghost]

Whether it was Baines or not, Bruce has been a great contested mark and has kicked plenty of goals, so I had no problem in the decision at the strat of the year.

Prior to joining us he kicked 50, 38, 36, 4, (only played 3 games in 2018), and 36 last year.

And was 6th in contested marks last season with Naughton 2nd.
It's hard to know what's gone wrong, maybe its as simple as the covid break affecting some more than others.

[1eyedog]

out- Vander, Wood, Bruce, Gardner
In - Cordy, Schache, Suckling, Lipinski

Was Gardner crap? I thought he was okish

[azabob]

Hasn't he said that he thinks it gives us an extra around the ball and we're trying to leverage that as an advantage?

I think the strategy is really clear, though I'm not convinced it's the best one we can deploy.

My take is we lose out late in the game when the whips are cracking. If Dunkley was used solely as a midfielder last night we may have had a different result.

[GVGjr]

And was 6th in contested marks last season with Naughton 2nd.
It's hard to know what's gone wrong, maybe its as simple as the covid break affecting some more than others.

There could be a covid-19 factor about his poor form or it could also be that as it's panned out it has all the markings of a player feeling contented with his pay packet and tenure over the next few seasons.
It doesn't appear he has arrived with a hungry mindset to help us push deep into finals calculations.
Was securing a 4 year deal from us the equivalent of some our players arriving at the club for the 2017 season with a feeling of mission already completed?

Bruce has been disappointing and I'm not sure if his free pass to being selected each week has helped him strive to get better through the season.

[azabob]

Bruce has been disappointing and I'm not sure if his free pass to being selected each week has helped him strive to get better through the season.

Could not agree more. Especially since it has come to light he perhaps isn’t as disciplined as he should be during the off-season. By playing him regardless of form reinforces that his poor training standards in the off season is acceptable and why should he change his behaviour?

[bornadog]

Could not agree more. Especially since it has come to light he perhaps isn’t as disciplined as he should be during the off-season. By playing him regardless of form reinforces that his poor training standards in the off season is acceptable and why should he change his behaviour?

This has been an unusual season and different players cope with it in different ways and not nevessraily relects on just him. His wife has a young baby, and yes he may have been unprofessional in not doing the things he should have been doing in the covid-19 break. 4 Players came back not in shape including Bruce.

One thing about Bruce, when he is on the field, he is giving his all, he trying very hard, but it is plainly obvious he is not as fit as he should be. You only have to look at his highlight real from 2019 to see what he is capable of. I think we should drop him as his form doesn't warrant his inclusion.

[azabob]

This has been an unusual season and different players cope with it in different ways and not nevessraily relects on just him. His wife has a young baby, and yes he may have been unprofessional in not doing the things he should have been doing in the covid-19 break. 4 Players came back not in shape including Bruce.

One thing about Bruce, when he is on the field, he is giving his all, he trying very hard, but it is plainly obvious he is not as fit as he should be. You only have to look at his highlight real from 2019 to see what he is capable of. I think we should drop him as his form doesn't warrant his inclusion.

I hope you are right. My concern is Nick Reiwoldt also raised Bruce training habits in the off season.

[GVGjr]

This has been an unusual season and different players cope with it in different ways and not nevessraily relects on just him. His wife has a young baby, and yes he may have been unprofessional in not doing the things he should have been doing in the covid-19 break. 4 Players came back not in shape including Bruce.

One thing about Bruce, when he is on the field, he is giving his all, he trying very hard, but it is plainly obvious he is not as fit as he should be. You only have to look at his highlight real from 2019 to see what he is capable of. I think we should drop him as his form doesn't warrant his inclusion.

If this is true about Bruce are you saying we are playing him just because of his effort? We don't play injured players so we shouldn't be playing players who aren't in shape and have no form behind them.

It doesn't really add up for me.

[Danjul]

Could not agree more. Especially since it has come to light he perhaps isn’t as disciplined as he should be during the off-season. By playing him regardless of form reinforces that his poor training standards in the off season is acceptable and why should he change his behaviour?
More importantly it’s sending a terrible message to other players.

Take out his best two games and he is averaging 6 possessions per game.
So last night was typical, of his 6 possessions one was a missed goal from 25 m (again), one was a handball over the boundary.

Another was a poor shot at goal from where Hawkins gave Geelong the lead.

Personally, I suspect that he is carrying an injury. But no one else could play as badly for so long and still be a certain selection.

[EasternWest]

Whether it was Baines or not, Bruce has been a great contested mark and has kicked plenty of goals, so I had no problem in the decision at the strat of the year.

Prior to joining us he kicked 50, 38, 36, 4, (only played 3 games in 2018), and 36 last year.

I'm still optimistic about it, but he needs a sports psychologist and some hard yards off the track.

He can clearly play.


Was Gardner crap? I thought he was okish

He was ok, he's definitely starting to improve. The question is will he ever be good enough?

[Bullies]

As I said in another thread. Spell him now. Put him on a programme ready for 2021. Agree. We know he can play. As we have said he started the year as fit as he has been and that showed against Port in the Pre Season Game. However he seemed to enjoy ISO too much and came back in ordinary condition and he has paid for it ever since. Get him fit now for next year and you will see a different player.

[Bullies]

I can't agree on this point. He has been a great player for us and was ready to play after building up at training. His performance tonight that is different. Dicko was finished last year. Injuries had caught up with him over the 2 years prior. Unfortunately unless you are elite at the age of 30 the game quickly goes past you.

[AutoFill]

Sweet to come in and start in the ruck. Move Bruce to defence to replace Gardner (last chance to prove something Brucey! And sorry Gards, you’re had more than enough chances) and English starts forward where he has looked good as a tall target. Timmy then becomes the backup ruck, releasing Dunkley. I’d play Sweet and Lewis Young before Trengove. We aren’t contesting for a premiership this year so let’s see the club’s future in action. Trengrove and unfortunately Dickson are both cooked. Greene sounds like he in knocking the door down and Cavarra never should have been dropped in the first place. Schache waits... he can’t go missing the way he does. He needs a monster performance in the twos.

Or just go in structured the way we have all year, and bring in Gowers and R. Smith to complement Gardner. That seems more likely.

[azabob]

IN: Lewis Young, Bailey Dale, Taylor Dureya,
OUT: Easton Wood, Lathem Vandemeer, Tory Dickson,

[bornadog]

IN: Lewis Young, Bailey Dale, Taylor Dureya,
OUT: Easton Wood, Lathem Vandemeer, Tory Dickson,

According to an Age reporter Duryea is still not ready to resume, but who knows.

[azabob]

According to an Age reporter Duryea is still not ready to resume, but who knows.

He is probably not. I wonder who come's in for Wood?

[bornadog]

He is probably not. I wonder who come's in for Wood?

I think Suckling and Cordy will come straight in

[GVGjr]

He is probably not. I wonder who come's in for Wood?

Richards to the back line seems like an option or Suckling

[GVGjr]

From the Hun

What to do with Josh Bruce? (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/expert-opinion/mark-robinson/the-tackle-mark-robinson-rates-his-likes-and-dislikes-from-afl-round-14/news-story/64f51d476e56f0323d443459befd1966)

The prized recruit has a terrific work ethic, but for some reason his career has hit the wall at the Western Bulldogs. Bruce has averaged 49 ranking points this season which is a career-low. He has also averaged a normalised 10 disposals and three marks — also career-low returns. Coach Luke Beveridge has been patient with Bruce, but after the loss to Geelong, where Bruce had just six touches and kicked two behinds, Beveridge’s patience would be wavering. He’s not keen on Bruce in the ruck, either. Against the Cats, Bruce spent 99 per cent of the game forward this season the split is 91 per cent forward and nine per cent in the ruck. Maybe more ruck time is the go because at least Bruce will compete.

[CarnTheScray]

Dickson is 100% cooked and it was a shocking selection from our coaching team, but what's new?

Well you would expect him to be bang average after not playing at AFL level for over a year. We should've brought him in weeks ago.

[comrade]

Well you would expect him to be bang average after not playing at AFL level for over a year. We should've brought him in weeks ago.

Yep, either you ease him in weeks ago (like it seemed we were doing with Cavarra, yet abandoned that idea) or don't play him at all. Bringing him in against the red hot Cats defence was also fraught with danger, and plenty on here questioned the decision before the game.

[bornadog]

Yep, either you ease him in weeks ago (like it seemed we were doing with Cavarra, yet abandoned that idea) or don't play him at all. Bringing him in against the red hot Cats defence was also fraught with danger, and plenty on here questioned the decision before the game.

Not sure why you keep questioning this selection. He may not have been ready a few weeks ago.

The MC gave a few a go and they didn't take their opportunities. Cavarra barely touched the ball in his last two outings and prior to that same with Weightman and Dale.

Easy to say the selection was wrong after the game.

[comrade]

Easy to say the selection was wrong after the game.

I questioned it before the game. Who would have thought a 33 year old would have 0 impact coming in against the best defensive group in the competition after struggling with injury/conditioning and not playing for a year.

[The Pie Man]

What I'd do

In: Sweet, Cordy, Cavarra
Out: Bruce, Wood, Vandermeer

What I think will happen

In: Suckling, Cordy
Out: Vandermeer, Wood

[Happy Days]

Having read the scratch match reports I'd like to see the following;

In: Cordy, Duryea, Greene, Schache, Suckling

Out: Vandermeer, Wood, Gardner, Bruce, Dickson

I think we will persist with Dickson but we really don't have the room for passengers right now, especially ones at the end of their career. Duryea has to play with no Wood because the options behind him are frightening prospects. Cordy for Gardner is a no-brainer.

[Sedat]

If we aren't going to play Cavarra (and he hasn't been huge in terms of defensive pressure inside F50), we really can't have both Wally and 2020 version Dickson in our F50 - West Coast mid sized defenders will have a field day rebounding with little pressure.

On reflection I would like us to drop Bruce and replace him with Cordy up forward and as 2nd ruck relief. Because he is so out of form he stands no chance of being an aerial threat against either Barrass or McGovern. Cordy at least competes well both in the air and on the ground, and we need to have another tall in the forward 50 to make West Coast defenders think twice about zoning off to Naughton. There is even an argument for also bringing Schache in and going 3-pronged up forward as Hurn and Sheppard both play tall and will chew up an unfit Dickson for breakfast.

[azabob]

If we aren't going to play Cavarra (and he hasn't been huge in terms of defensive pressure inside F50), we really can't have both Wally and 2020 version Dickson in our F50 - West Coast mid sized defenders will have a field day rebounding with little pressure.

On reflection I would like us to drop Bruce and replace him with Cordy up forward and as 2nd ruck relief. Because he is so out of form he stands no chance of being an aerial threat against either Barrass or McGovern. Cordy at least competes well both in the air and on the ground, and we need to have another tall in the forward 50 to make West Coast defenders think twice about zoning off to Naughton. There is even an argument for also bringing Schache in and going 3-pronged up forward as Hurn and Sheppard both play tall and will chew up an unfit Dickson for breakfast.

Cordy is a competitive beast and could be a better option than my preferred second ruck in Lewis Young.

Either way our forwards need to move and create separation between not only their direct opponents but create separation between the Eagle defenders so they can't work as team and double team Naughton etc. One thing Schache does well is lead and move (albeit when he's up and about).

Only problem with your suggestion Sedat is that Bevo is more one to play to our (supposed) strengths rather than bring in players to stifle the oppositions strengths.

[Grantysghost]

If we aren't going to play Cavarra (and he hasn't been huge in terms of defensive pressure inside F50), we really can't have both Wally and 2020 version Dickson in our F50 - West Coast mid sized defenders will have a field day rebounding with little pressure.

On reflection I would like us to drop Bruce and replace him with Cordy up forward and as 2nd ruck relief. Because he is so out of form he stands no chance of being an aerial threat against either Barrass or McGovern. Cordy at least competes well both in the air and on the ground, and we need to have another tall in the forward 50 to make West Coast defenders think twice about zoning off to Naughton. There is even an argument for also bringing Schache in and going 3-pronged up forward as Hurn and Sheppard both play tall and will chew up an unfit Dickson for breakfast.

Schache was playing that role in the scratch match. Forward/ruck. I can see maybe he or Bruce doing that role?

[Sedat]

Cordy is a competitive beast and could be a better option than my preferred second ruck in Lewis Young.

Either way our forwards need to move and create separation between not only their direct opponents but create separation between the Eagle defenders so they can't work as team and double team Naughton etc. One thing Schache does well is lead and move (albeit when he's up and about).

Only problem with your suggestion Sedat is that Bevo is more one to play to our (supposed) strengths rather than bring in players to stifle the oppositions strengths.
I wouldn't be against Lew Young coming in to play a similar role. What I would like to see is English used to fill the hole in defence (when he's not rucking) to clog the space that Darling and Kennedy can run into. I just don't think he has the core strength to be able to impact up forward aerially againat Barrass and McGovern.

Just on the bolded bit, I'd like to see Dunks used in his strengths as an inside midfield bull collecting 30-40 possessions a week like he did for most of last season, instead of being used as a 189cm Ben Hudson.

[bornadog]

Just on the bolded bit, I'd like to see Dunks used in his strengths as an inside midfield bull collecting 30-40 possessions a week like he did for most of last season, instead of being used as a 189cm Ben Hudson.

I think we all would. The experiment is not working, and it won't against Nic Nat.

[Danjul]

I think we all would. The experiment is not working, and it won't against Nic Nat.
The experiment has been going a long time.

Round 1, 2016 was his first game.
15 possessions, 1 goal, 1 hitout.

RRound 14, 2020 was his last game.
13 possessions, 1 goal, 3 hitouts.

That is 5 seasons, 100 games later. Only difference is that now he has the potential to be a match winner.

[bornadog]

AFL has officially knocked back this request. North v West Coast to remain in Queensland in Round 18. Both teams now sharing the Royal Pines hub. Dogs-Freo also remains there.

[bornadog]

My prediction -

In: Cordy, Schache, Suckling

Out: Wood, Vandermeer, Dickson

[azabob]

My prediction -

In: Cordy, Schache, Suckling

Out: Wood, Vandermeer, Dickson

What changes would you make?

[Mantis]

I saw a report that Kennedy wouldn't play this week so I thought bewdy, but didn't realise they're playing tomorrow night as well!

It's a crazy year.

[bornadog]

I saw a report that Kennedy wouldn't play this week so I thought bewdy, but didn't realise they're playing tomorrow night as well!

It's a crazy year.

Hopefully he is out for the week. (concussion)

[G-Mo77]

I can't remember the guys name but he usually does the articles for the website. He tweeted something about Greene. Tends to have a bit of inside knowledge so guessing Fergus might be in the mix this week.

Edit: Jourdan Canil (Found him)

[Happy Days]

I can't remember the guys name but he usually does the articles for the website. He tweeted something about Greene. Tends to have a bit of inside knowledge so guessing Fergus might be in the mix this week.

Edit: Jourdan Canil (Found him)

Hell yeah free Ferg.

[bornadog]

I can't remember the guys name but he usually does the articles for the website. He tweeted something about Greene. Tends to have a bit of inside knowledge so guessing Fergus might be in the mix this week.

Edit: Jourdan Canil (Found him)

He said:


The Dogs have suffered a double hamstring blow, but could this open the door for Fergus Greene?

[Doc26]

He said:

Eagles most probably will be without Shuey with a hamstring injury in the 4th quarter, although he had initial symptoms in the 3rd.
A very handy out.

[bornadog]

Eagles most probably will be without Shuey with a hamstring injury in the 4th quarter, although he had initial symptoms in the 3rd.
A very handy out.

Do you think Greene will get a go and replace Dickson?

[Mofra]

Do you think Greene will get a go and replace Dickson?
Could replace VDM who is a confirmed out

[The Adelaide Connection]

There are some whispers starting to circulate that Natanui might be rested for Sunday.

Simpson has previously mentioned that Kennedy and Natanui would likely be rested late in the season due to the compressed fixture, not sure if the new talk is just referencing this or stems from new comments. Either way I’d say tell Dunkley- he might be able to start sleeping at night.

[comrade]

There are some whispers starting to circulate that Natanui might be rested for Sunday.

Simpson has previously mentioned that Kennedy and Natanui would likely be rested late in the season due to the compressed fixture, not sure if the new talk is just referencing this or stems from new comments. Either way I’d say tell Dunkley- he might be able to start sleeping at night.

If I was Simpson, I'd be pushing the ruck advantage as hard as possible against us. And besides, rucking against Dunkley is as close to a rest as you'll get without actually taking a game off.

[Happy Days]

There are some whispers starting to circulate that Natanui might be rested for Sunday.

Simpson has previously mentioned that Kennedy and Natanui would likely be rested late in the season due to the compressed fixture, not sure if the new talk is just referencing this or stems from new comments. Either way I’d say tell Dunkley- he might be able to start sleeping at night.

If we lose to the Eagles with no Naitanui I will be very sad. I doubt it will happen though, they need to win out to make top 4 and if they don't make top 4, given how much worse they've looked in the hub and that they'll only get one final at home, they can pretty much kiss the season goodbye.

The Eagles have played two very weak ruck divisions the last two weeks, giving Nicnat the chance to rest in games. He played something close to 50% game time against the Bombers, so maybe his rest has already happened.

[The Adelaide Connection]

If I was Simpson, I'd be pushing the ruck advantage as hard as possible against us. And besides, rucking against Dunkley is as close to a rest as you'll get without actually taking a game off.

The thinking is probably that they could play Hickey and still belt us in that area (whilst giving Natanui the rest he needs to get through this period in good nick). They’ve got the Saints after us, they’d likely much rather him play that one.

[comrade]

The thinking is probably that they could play Hickey and still belt us in that area (whilst giving Natanui the rest he needs to get through this period in good nick). They’ve got the Saints after us, they’d likely much rather him play that one.

My fingers are crossed, NicNat is terrifying.

[azabob]

There are some whispers starting to circulate that Natanui might be rested for Sunday.

.

This has me worried that Bevo will now double down on Dunkely in the ruck.

Who am I kidding, he was always going to double down with Dunkley in the ruck.

[bornadog]

This has me worried that Bevo will now double down on Dunkely in the ruck.

Who am I kidding, he was always going to double down with Dunkley in the ruck.

Maybe Jong will be available :D

[bornadog]

From West Coast injury list:


Josh Kennedy
Concussion
1 week



Hopefully he is out

[azabob]

From West Coast injury list:


Josh Kennedy
Concussion
1 week



Hopefully he is out

I heard a grab on radio where Mick McGuane asked Adam White if McGovern was going to play.

[Rocket Science]

I heard a grab on radio where Mick McGuane asked Adam White if McGovern was going to play.

YUGE if true. They did appear to be managing him with a proppy leg at various stages during the Essington game.

[bornadog]

We can't afford to lose any of the last three

[mjp]

If we lose to the Eagles with no Naitanui I will be very sad.

If we lose to WC (and we might) Nic Nat will have nothing to do with it. If we lose it will be because we repeatedly kick the ball to McGovern, Barrass and Shepherd. Richmond kept them to (I think) 3x intercept marks for the game...if we don’t learn from this and do our usual ‘kick it to the fat bloke’ then we will lose. If we have learnt our lesson then we will win no matter what Nic Nat does.

[jeemak]

If we lose to WC (and we might) Nic Nat will have nothing to do with it. If we lose it will be because we repeatedly kick the ball to McGovern, Barrass and Shepherd. Richmond kept them to (I think) 3x intercept marks for the game...if we don’t learn from this and do our usual ‘kick it to the fat bloke’ then we will lose. If we have learnt our lesson then we will win no matter what Nic Nat does.

I'm pretty sure any time we lose it's because Bevo and the MC are crazy mate.

Keep up.

[jeemak]

In honesty though, if we lose it will likely be because our midfield isn't on and our forward line is dysfunctional as a result.

Every time from viewing on TV...which I know is difficult, it's just so clear that as soon as we take the forward movement/ pressure away from the source or difficult areas our defence just gets too compressed and bombarded and eventually cracks.

If we don't crack we get it half way, and everyone is out of position because the system has broken down.

[The Adelaide Connection]

YUGE if true. They did appear to be managing him with a proppy leg at various stages during the Essington game.

Natanui and McGovern (potentially) on top of Shuey (definitely) has to make this mountain significantly more climbable.

https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/west-coast-marking-machine-jeremy-mcgovern-in-doubt-for-western-bulldogs-clash-due-to-ankle-injury-ng-b881657411z

West Coast marking machine Jeremy McGovern in doubt for Western Bulldogs clash due to ankle injury

West Coast defender Jeremy McGovern is in doubt for Sunday’s clash with the Western Bulldogs with an ankle injury.

McGovern, who has already missed five games this season through injury and suspension, has been listed as a test.

The four-time All-Australian has only a five-day break to shrug off swelling after rolling his ankle against Essendon on Tuesday night.

Ruckman Nic Naitanui is in the frame to be rested, however spearhead Josh Kennedy and fellow forward Jake Waterman are both on track to return against the Bulldogs.

It will be 10 days since Kennedy suffered a concussion against Richmond, while Waterman has missed the past four games with a broken hand.

West Coast football operations manager Craig Vozzo said McGovern would be given “every opportunity” to get up.

“Gov turned his ankle in the course of the game, fell awkwardly, played out the game really well and probably has recovered better than we anticipated actually in terms of swelling and movement,” Vozzo said.

Naitanui, seen as vital to the Eagles’ premiership hopes, said he expected to be rested amid the Eagles’ hectic schedule of five games in 19 days.

The Bulldogs shape as the logical opponent for him to miss, given their ruck struggles and the use of 190cm midfielder Josh Dunkley in the ruck.

“My time for a rest will come up in the next couple of games for sure,” Naitanui told 6PR.

“I’ve been saying no, I don’t need a rest. But we’re looking beyond that.”

Tom Hickey could step in for the first time since round four or West Coast could opt for youngster Bailey Williams to lead the ruck with support from Oscar Allen.

Captain Luke Shuey has been ruled out for the rest of the regular season with his two hamstring strains, however fellow on-ball star Elliot Yeo is now targeting a return against North Melbourne in round 18.

It would give Yeo an important tune-up ahead of the finals, having not played since round 11 due to a groin issue.

“Elliot is tracking well. He is probably looking now at a build into the North Melbourne game,” Vozzo said.

“He was complaining a lot on the track yesterday with all the running and aerobic work he had to do, which is a really good sign for Elliot. It means he’s closer to playing for us.”

Speedster Jack Petruccelle is likely to be available for the round 17 clash with St Kilda next Thursday following a serious hamstring injury, while the club is hoping big man Nathan Vardy would be available for the first final if required following successful surgery on a serious cork.

Vozzo said Kennedy only had to “tick off” the captain’s run on Saturday before being declared ready to return.

“Josh is tracking really well. His test results post-concussion were actually very good in the first few days post the incident itself,” he said.

“But we wanted to take a quiet path and more conservative path for Josh and we’re all glad we’ve done that.

“He’s feeling a lot better. He trained the house down yesterday with our rehab group, expect him to be available.”

[Grantysghost]

And no Yeo. We have no excuses.

[GVGjr]

And no Yeo. We have no excuses.

We couldn't be catching them at a much better time could we?
This has to provide us with a great opportunity.

Dogs by 16 points

[Happy Days]

If we lose to WC (and we might) Nic Nat will have nothing to do with it. If we lose it will be because we repeatedly kick the ball to McGovern, Barrass and Shepherd. Richmond kept them to (I think) 3x intercept marks for the game...if we don’t learn from this and do our usual ‘kick it to the fat bloke’ then we will lose. If we have learnt our lesson then we will win no matter what Nic Nat does.

That seems...not right.

Our main issue last week (other than opting to possess the ball over moving the ball) was our ruckman getting monstered by noted muscled up adonis Rhys Stanley around clearances by virtue of our ruckman not being a ruckman at 50% of stoppages. How will that look against the most effective ruckman in the league?

Navigating the Eagles defence, who are the best in the world, is obviously key but Nic Nat having nothing to do with it? I think that's oversimplifying it.

[mjp]

Navigating the Eagles defence, who are the best in the world, is obviously key but Nic Nat having nothing to do with it? I think that's oversimplifying it.

Fair. But to me when you are preparing it is naive to think you can take away EVERYTHING an opposition does or solve EVERY problem. Realistically we can't solve the problem that is Natanui because we don't have a suitable opponent for him and it isn't as if you can go 3rd up etc.

The old adage still applies though - "Don't get beat by what you know".

- Don't kick it to McGovern (et al)

If I was to add something else:
- Make sure Darling and Liam Ryan are given 'serious' opponents (aka - play on your man, let's not just do the whole "we'll work together and it will all be ok" thing). If we lose because Brendan Ah Chee kicks 7, well, you can't do much about that. But if Darling and Ryan get us, I will be most displeased.

[Axe Man]

Fair. But to me when you are preparing it is naive to think you can take away EVERYTHING an opposition does or solve EVERY problem. Realistically we can't solve the problem that is Natanui because we don't have a suitable opponent for him and it isn't as if you can go 3rd up etc.

The old adage still applies though - "Don't get beat by what you know".

- Don't kick it to McGovern (et al)

If I was to add something else:
- Make sure Darling and Liam Ryan are given 'serious' opponents (aka - play on your man, let's not just do the whole "we'll work together and it will all be ok" thing). If we lose because Brendan Ah Chee kicks 7, well, you can't do much about that. But if Darling and Ryan get us, I will be most displeased.

It's a shame Wood is out as he loomed as a good matchup for Ryan. That leaves Crozier? I'm not sure who else can go with him in the air. Although if we are allowing him free run and jumps at the ball it probably won't matter who is on him.

[comrade]

It's a shame Wood is out as he loomed as a good matchup for Ryan. That leaves Crozier? I'm not sure who else can go with him in the air. Although if we are allowing him free run and jumps at the ball it probably won't matter who is on him.

Cordy is a decent match up for Ryan, IMO. He seems much more comfortable 1 on 1 when he has the height/strength advantage.

[Axe Man]

Cordy is a decent match up for Ryan, IMO. He seems much more comfortable 1 on 1 when he has the height/strength advantage.

Yeah but West Coast are likely to have what 3 or 4 tall forwards? Cordy will have to play on one of those I would expect.

[comrade]

Yeah but West Coast are likely to have what 3 or 4 tall forwards? Cordy will have to play on one of those I would expect.

Keath will take Kennedy (if he plays) and Gardner will probably get Darling (yikes). I honestly don't know what you do with Allen but that's a horrible match up for Cordy.

It's a conundrum, for sure.

My plan: retain the ball and keep WC inside 50s to less than 20. Simple.

[Happy Days]

Keath will take Kennedy (if he plays) and Gardner will probably get Darling (yikes). I honestly don't know what you do with Allen but that's a horrible match up for Cordy.

It's a conundrum, for sure.

My plan: retain the ball and keep WC inside 50s to less than 20. Simple.

I'd think Cordy would get Darling and Gardner would get Allen, which is still yikes given how much Allen likes the ball in the air and Gardner apparently likes lying face first on the ground.

You know who's good in the air and would be better size match up for Allen? Lewis Young. What ever happened to that guy.

[Mofra]

The longer a Bulldogs player is not in the seniors, the better he gets.

[Happy Days]

The longer a Bulldogs player is not in the seniors, the better he gets.

I’ve been nothing if not consistent on wanting Young in the team over Gardner.

[Grantysghost]

a=t⁰ x p(a) / m
(a)bility = (t)ime out of seniors x (p)revious ability divided by lack of (m)entions in scratch match reports.
:cool:

[Grantysghost]

I’ve been nothing if not consistent on wanting Young in the team over Gardner.

Be nice to see some communication regarding where he is at that's for sure.

[bornadog]

I’ve been nothing if not consistent on wanting Young in the team over Gardner.

Young has shown far more ability at senior level than Gardner.

Someone get him some footy boots with stops that can keep him upright. I have never seen a player go to ground as much as he does.

[The Pie Man]

Only just heard the tail end of King on SEN before, was asked about Sweet - mentioned he’s still working on his forward craft and marks around the ground, but has been solid in the scrimmages.

Not a shock to anyone, but that’ll be no to a debut.

I’d seriously play him - he’d be able to at least exert a physicality that Tim just can’t right now.

[Axe Man]

Eagles weigh up Nic Nat's AFL workload (https://7news.com.au/sport/afl/eagles-weigh-up-nic-nats-afl-workload-c-1292343)

Nic Naitanui is one of a handful of players West Coast will consider resting for the crunch AFL clash with the Western Bulldogs.

The Eagles are in the midst of a tough schedule as they chase a top-four spot, with five games in 19 days.

They have lost captain Luke Shuey to twin hamstring strains and Elliot Yeo is still sidelined by a groin injury, while Jeremy McGovern (ankle) is in doubt for Sunday's match at Metricon Stadium.

But leading goal kicker Josh Kennedy is set to return after missing Tuesday's win over Essendon because of a head knock against Richmond five days earlier.

Naitanui, who managed just five appearances late last season on return from a serious knee injury, is on track to play more games this year than any other since 2015.

But the 30-year-old had long stints on the bench against the Bombers and may need to be freshened up for West Coast's premiership tilt.

"He's one of probably four or five that we've just got to look and see how they pull up tomorrow," Eagles coach Adam Simpson said.

"Realistically we thought we took a bit of a risk to play him against Richmond (in round 14) on a four-day break after travel and he pulled up really well.

"He pulled up really well after Essendon, as well.

"His body's in good condition at the moment, so we'll just see how he pulls up and give him every chance to play.

"Also, we'll try and get in front of some of these things as well and not wait to get an injury."

If Naitanui is rested on Sunday, it could leave back-up Tom Hickey and part-timer Oscar Allen to take on Bulldogs ruckman Tim English, with inexperienced Bailey Williams another option.

Simpson conceded he needed to "own" the decision to bring Shuey back onto the field in the Essendon game after the skipper had suffered a minor hamstring strain.

Shuey, who has a history of hamstring injuries, then strained the same muscle on his other leg and will not play again before the finals.

"In hindsight, we shouldn't have played him," Simpson said.

"We should've backed in who we had and unfortunately now we're dealing with two little hamstrings rather than one.

"He'll miss the same amount of time, so that's not the issue, but it's just the fact that there's another injury."

[bornadog]

We can stick our Bailey Williams into the ruck as well.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Just listened to Bevo's presser.
Some takeaways
* ruck set up ain't changing. Around the 7.05minute mark he gives a very strong analysis of what we're doing there, and how it stands up to West Coast in particular.
Off the back of his ruck comments, and his saying Bruce would no doubt fill some centre bounce time, so take that as meaning Bruce will be selected this week.

[bornadog]

Just listened to Bevo's presser.
Some takeaways
* ruck set up ain't changing. Around the 7.05minute mark he gives a very strong analysis of what we're doing there, and how it stands up to West Coast in particular.
Off the back of his ruck comments, and his saying Bruce would no doubt fill some centre bounce time, so take that as meaning Bruce will be selected this week.

Explains the methodolgy of how we approach it.

He also mentioned the replacement for Vandermeer will be someone with similar attributes? Who can that be?

[josie]

Explains the methodolgy of how we approach it.

He also mentioned the replacement for Vandermeer will be someone with similar attributes? Who can that be?

Possible Garcia debut? He is supposed to be quick too. Unlikely we debut new player-guessing Roarke Smith.

[bornadog]

Premiership Dog in line for recall, Libba on light duties (https://www.afl.com.au/news/496008)

ZAINE Cordy could earn a recall for the Western Bulldogs for Sunday's crucial clash against West Coast.

The Dogs will be forced to make at least two changes with defender Easton Wood and emerging talent Laitham Vandermeer both unavailable through hamstring injuries.

Cordy missed two games through a chest muscle injury but was overlooked for last Friday's loss against Geelong.

"Zaine came back after injury and played reasonably well last week (in a scratch match) so he'll be a candidate for that spot," Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge said of who could replace Wood.

Vandermeer has lined up in every game since the competition restarted as a wingman and forward, but his hamstring has ruled him out for the rest of the home and away season.

"He's a bit of a loss for us, Laith," Beveridge said.

"We'll bring a player in who can play a similar multidimensional role."

Ben Cavarra and Pat Lipinski loom likely as replacements for Vandermeer, while Fergus Greene's three goals in a scratch match could earn him his first senior game since round 23, 2018.

Midfielder Tom Liberatore "didn’t do a hell of a lot" in Friday's training session but should line up for the Bulldogs.

"He (Liberatore) had a cross training session away from Surfers Paradise oval and he had a good session on Wednesday which was surprising because he did pull up a little bit ginger from the game," Beveridge said.

"We wouldn't take any risk with him, but the probability he plays on Sunday is close to 100 per cent."

[G-Mo77]

Just listened to Bevo's presser.
Some takeaways
* ruck set up ain't changing. Around the 7.05minute mark he gives a very strong analysis of what we're doing there, and how it stands up to West Coast in particular.
Off the back of his ruck comments, and his saying Bruce would no doubt fill some centre bounce time, so take that as meaning Bruce will be selected this week.

Doesn't work and far too stubborn to change. Rucks have been far more important part of the game since the third man up rule was scrapped after 2016. Bevo still thinks it's 2016.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Doesn't work and far too stubborn to change. Rucks have been far more important part of the game since the third man up rule was scrapped after 2016. Bevo still thinks it's 2016.

I think Bevo made a decent case in that interview to counter that view, and also give an insight into the broader way AFL coaches analyse whether something is working or not than supporters do.

Bevo doesn't contend rucks aren't important. I thibk he's saying its not a strength of ours and our best way is to mitigate our weakness, rather than sinply try and win a tap to look good and stuff our game plan.

[Grantysghost]

I think Bevo made a decent case in that interview to counter that view, and also give an insight into the broader way AFL coaches analyse whether something is working or not than supporters do.

He looked like he'd just down a few rounds with Barry Hall.

[jeemak]

He looked like he'd just down a few rounds with Barry Hall.

Yeah pretty clear where he's been putting the zinc on. Lucky he's not just zincing up the lips otherwise he'd be running a minstrel vibe.

[jeemak]

I think Bevo made a decent case in that interview to counter that view, and also give an insight into the broader way AFL coaches analyse whether something is working or not than supporters do.

Bevo doesn't contend rucks aren't important. I thibk he's saying its not a strength of ours and our best way is to mitigate our weakness, rather than sinply try and win a tap to look good and stuff our game plan.

Agreed. Whether it's the right strategy we won't know, but if they don't think Sweet is ready then we have to try and flip things to try and secure a point of difference around the ground.

Not saying I like it, though the response didn't come across as ill considered.

[DOG GOD]

Whatever Bevo is thinking, what is this doing to English’s confidence and WTF is this doing to Dunkley’s career.
I’ll continue to shake my head and will never accept it.

[bornadog]

Whatever Bevo is thinking, what is this doing to English’s confidence and WTF is this doing to Dunkley’s career.
I’ll continue to shake my head and will never accept it.

Did you listen to the press conference?

[DOG GOD]

Did you listen to the press conference?

No, and I don’t need to. If others want to accept it, that’s their choice, opinion or whatever Bornadog, but I personally find it farcical, and by what I just heard Dunstall and Riewoldt discuss on fox footy, I’m not alone.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Agreed. Whether it's the right strategy we won't know, but if they don't think Sweet is ready then we have to try and flip things to try and secure a point of difference around the ground.

Not saying I like it, though the response didn't come across as ill considered.

Absolutely. I reckon Bevo would acknowledge, in a perfect world this isn't how we would like to set up.

In some regard its a testament to and acknowledgement of the other aspects that Tim brings to the overall team plan that forces Bevo's hand to actually select him! He is too valuable in other aspects of our game to leave out solely based on his deficiencies as a tap ruckman.

All teams have deficiencies; and all coaches have to weigh up the strengths and weaknesses and either try to set up a plan that amplifies the strengths and or mitigates the weaknesses to hopefully create a net positive result.
Unfortunately we don't have a parallel universe visible to us to both see how we play without Tim in this role and also at the same time see how we play without us structuring ruck this way!

Therefore we only see the goals given up when it doesn't work, but don't see how the game would play out without him playing this role.
So we end up with this confirmation bias that says well we gave up 2 goals blah blah because Macrae or Dunkley were in the ruck. We don't see how without Tim playing may result in us not getting 3 or 4 goal opportunities or how we may concede 2 or more goals because he's not there bringing his other skills to our team plan.

It isn't our goal for this set up to occur, it's just reality right now, and whether we like it or not, as Jeemak said, it's not done on a whim, there is a lot of thought driving it. And you can be sure it's not stubborness or ignorance that is at play.

If you go back and listen to Bevo's pressers when talking about Tim, whether its after he's had a good or a bad game, he always mentions stuff like 'we know what Tim brings to our side, and we also know he's got more improvement to come that will only make us better. We also know we have to put support in place to help him in the areas he's still got to improve on."

[comrade]

That’s all well and good, but it’s not working. We’re in 10th spot.

[DOG GOD]

If Tim sees this as his “role” in the team, would it come as surprise to anyone on here if he asked for a trade? What does it say about our list if our coach and MC aren’t confident in any ruckman we have on our list. English not good enough yet, Trengove too slow and old, sweet to cut the oranges etc etc.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Whatever Bevo is thinking, what is this doing to English’s confidence and WTF is this doing to Dunkley’s career.
I’ll continue to shake my head and will never accept it.
I wouldn’t get too upset DG. This problem started 3-4 years ago when the Club allowed itself to be left with one inexperienced ruck man in English. To see Dunkley trying to compete for long periods against 200 cm ruck men in Blicavs and Stanley was bordering on absurdity. To make matters worse we have sacrificed Dunkley’s ability to gain 25-30 possessions each week in his midfield role which took the pressure off the likes of Bont and Libba. The one player who is capable of playing as a second ruck and sharing the load with English is Lew Young but it seems Bev has other ideas.

[DOG GOD]

I wouldn’t get too upset DG. This problem started 3-4 years ago when the Club allowed itself to be left with one inexperienced ruck man in English. To see Dunkley trying to compete for long periods against 200 cm ruck men in Blicavs and Stanley was bordering on absurdity. To make matters worse we have sacrificed Dunkley’s ability to gain 25-30 possessions each week in his midfield role which took the pressure off the likes of Bont and Libba. The one player who is capable of playing as a second ruck and sharing the load with English is Lew Young but it seems Bev has other ideas.

Well said Nuggety. I try not to let it get to me, but I can see a career or two ruined by craziness. Lin Jong can probably thank his lucky stars he’s injured right now.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That’s all well and good, but it’s not working. We’re in 10th spot.

If you're reducing the totality of our performances down to that one aspect then, well, I actually don't know what to say. Find some nuance maybe.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

If Tim sees this as his “role” in the team, would it come as surprise to anyone on here if he asked for a trade? What does it say about our list if our coach and MC aren’t confident in any ruckman we have on our list. English not good enough yet, Trengove too slow and old, sweet to cut the oranges etc etc.

Rubbish.
Equally if Tim thinks he's being harshly dealt with, and seriously thinks he's a ready made tap ruckman right now then good luck to him.
I'd say the inverse is true. He's a smart fella, he would be well aware of the things he needs to improve on, and would feel buoyed by the fact the coach thinks so much of his all round skills that he's willing to find other ways to keep him in the team to make use of his other talents.

[GVGjr]

I think Bevo made a decent case in that interview to counter that view, and also give an insight into the broader way AFL coaches analyse whether something is working or not than supporters do.

Bevo doesn't contend rucks aren't important. I thibk he's saying its not a strength of ours and our best way is to mitigate our weakness, rather than sinply try and win a tap to look good and stuff our game plan.

We basically dared the outcome we are faced with (using Dunks a lot and others like Macrae and Bonts on occasions etc) given we chose not to address it during the trade and draft periods.
This isn't like we have been struck down with injuries and run out of options, we were always likely to be faced with this.
Despite Bevo using the numbers they way that he did, it's just not working and I wonder what effect it also be having with reduced midfield rotations/options while Dunks is wrestling with the bigger ruck man?

We went into the season with a quality young ruck man who needed some support, a rookie ruck man who has still not been played and an older player who's best footy in 2019 was as a key defender and we have only used him once this year.
Dunks and co were the next options and it appears Dunks was the 2nd option

If Bevo is saying it's not a strength of ours was our plan going into 2020 to just be average at it?

[DOG GOD]

Rubbish.
Equally if Tim thinks he's being harshly dealt with, and seriously thinks he's a ready made tap ruckman right now then good luck to him.
I'd say the inverse is true. He's a smart fella, he would be well aware of the things he needs to improve on, and would feel buoyed by the fact the coach thinks so much of his all round skills that he's willing to find other ways to keep him in the team to make use of his other talents.

I’m not saying he would ask for a trade, I just suggested what we would think if he DID ask for a trade?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I wouldn’t get too upset DG. This problem started 3-4 years ago when the Club allowed itself to be left with one inexperienced ruck man in English. To see Dunkley trying to compete for long periods against 200 cm ruck men in Blicavs and Stanley was bordering on absurdity. To make matters worse we have sacrificed Dunkley’s ability to gain 25-30 possessions each week in his midfield role which took the pressure off the likes of Bont and Libba. The one player who is capable of playing as a second ruck and sharing the load with English is Lew Young but it seems Bev has other ideas.

Amid the simplified hyperbole you have also hit in yet another factor the coach and players have to tussle with. And it must be a source of consternation to all - coach and player- no doubt.

1. We are deficient in quality ruck stocks! We should not be in this situation...but yet, here we are..How do we make the best of it??
2. Bevo could give way to the punters, and play a conventional tap ruck role...tell me..how did that work out in Rnd 1 against Grundy???? How did it work in round 2 against the Saints and Marshall??,
3. Bevo and the team are desperately trying to find a way to mitigate the problem for the now and Dunks being the consummate team player is stepping up to take one for the team good.
Would we look better optically with Dunks doing Dunks things racking up 30 possies..yep. but would it outweigh our broader deficiencies ala Rnd 1 & 2 with Timmy in a conventional role? I don't know? But clearly Bevo and the coaches think so. And whether or not I agree, I am confident they're not making the decision on a whim.

[DOG GOD]

If Bevo is saying it's not a strength of ours was our plan going into 2020 to just be average at it?
And this is what really shits me.

[comrade]

If you're reducing the totality of our performances down to that one aspect then, well, I actually don't know what to say. Find some nuance maybe.

My point is that maybe the bloke that has us in 10th spot and a 46% win rate over the last 4 seasons doesn’t actually have it all under control. Why would you just blindly accept his reasoning?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We basically dared the outcome we are faced with (using Dunks a lot and others like Macrae and Bonts on occasions etc) given we chose not to address it during the trade and draft periods.
This isn't like we have been struck down with injuries and run out of options, we were always likely to be faced with this.
Despite Bevo using the numbers they way that he did, it's just not working and I wonder what effect it also be having with reduced midfield rotations/options while Dunks is wrestling with the bigger ruck man?

We went into the season with a quality young ruck man who needed some support, a rookie ruck man who has still not been played and an older player who's best footy in 2019 was as a key defender and we have only used him once this year.
Dunks and co were the next options and it appears Dunks was the 2nd option

If Bevo is saying it's not a strength of ours was our plan going into 2020 to just be average at it?

I suspect Rnd 1 and 2 gave Bevo a massive reality check as to where things would go for the rest of the year should we not rethink how we set up at the ruck contest.
I don't disagree that we were at best naive not addressing this position inn the offseason (for the last 4 years!!)
That's a strategic failure that the club has to acknowledge head on.
I'll be super pissed if we stick our head in the sand this off season!
But for me Kudos to the coach for trying to find alternative solutions within the season to try and mitigate.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

No, and I don’t need to. If others want to accept it, that’s their choice, opinion or whatever Bornadog, but I personally find it farcical, and by what I just heard Dunstall and Riewoldt discuss on fox footy, I’m not alone.

So your okay with just listening to what outsiders say, because it lines up with your view, but not willing to hear from someone inside the club who might give some perspective on why we're doing what we do?

[comrade]

I have no doubt Bevo believes Bevo is making the right decisions.

[GVGjr]

I suspect Rnd 1 and 2 gave Bevo a massive reality check as to where things would go for the rest of the year should we not rethink how we set up at the ruck contest.
I don't disagree that we were at best naive not addressing this position inn the offseason (for the last 4 years!!)
That's a strategic failure that the club has to acknowledge head on.
I'll be super pissed if we stick our head in the sand this off season!
But for me Kudos to the coach for trying to find alternative solutions within the season to try and mitigate.

I think there is merit in what you are saying but I also think we were a year late in manning up and acknowledging we were short on KP players before we eventually traded for Keath and Bruce and now we are a potentially a year late in acknowledging we need to address our ruck depth. Being fashionably late might work at parties but not the AFL and lets face it what is being pointed out by many here on WOOF this season about or ruck depth is what was also being pointed out at the end of 2019.
We chose to go into the 2020 season with a very diminished ruck option set-up in terms of numbers and the quality of what we had.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

My point is that maybe the bloke that has us in 10th spot and a 46% win rate over the last 4 seasons doesn’t actually have it all under control. Why would you just blindly accept his reasoning?

Maybe because I'm not blindly accepting anything?
His reasoning on this subject makes sense as I've tried to explain.
Does it mean he or the other decision makers get a free pass for leaving us exposed. Nope.
I suspect they got enthralled by Tim's progress and thought he was better placed to handle the role.Even if that is true they are still on the hook for not making sure we had positional depth at ruck, should Tim go down.
It always looked shaky having only Sweet as the only genuine back up. Thank goodness Tim hasn't broken down and we were forced to watch Sweet come in and more than likely result in us seeing more results like Rnd 1 and 2!
The club most definitely need to be held accountable for it's strategic shortcomings with the ruck. Tactically however, dealing with what we've got, I applaud the coach for trying to find a way through what is a weakness.

[comrade]

Maybe because I'm not blindly accepting anything?
His reasoning on this subject makes sense as I've tried to explain.
Does it mean he or the other decision makers get a free pass for leaving us exposed. Nope.
I suspect they got enthralled by Tim's progress and thought he was better placed to handle the role.Even if that is true they are still on the hook for not making sure we had positional depth at ruck, should Tim go down.
It always looked shaky having only Sweet as the only genuine back up. Thank goodness Tim hasn't broken down and we were forced to watch Sweet come in and more than likely result in us seeing more results like Rnd 1 and 2!
The club most definitely need to be held accountable for it's strategic shortcomings with the ruck. Tactically however, dealing with what we've got, I applaud the coach for trying to find a way through what is a weakness.

I don’t get what you mean when you say Sweet coming in would result in performances like Rd 1 & 2? Isn’t the same ruckman in the side, except now he’s getting chopped out by a 190cm midfielder?

[Danjul]

Absolutely. I reckon Bevo would acknowledge, in a perfect world this isn't how we would like to set up.

In ...............



it's not done on a whim, there is a lot of thought driving it. And you can be sure it's not stubborness or ignorance that is at play.

If you go back and listen to Bevo's pressers when talking about Tim, whether its after he's had a good or a bad game, he always mentions stuff like 'we know what Tim brings to our side, and we also know he's got more improvement to come that will only make us better. We also know we have to put support in place to help him in the areas he's still got to improve on."

For Bevo this is a perfect world. He has had 6 seasons to build it. When the team runs out it’s his team and its composition reflects his will. And its performance is his symphony.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I don’t get what you mean when you say Sweet coming in would result in performances like Rd 1 & 2? Isn’t the same ruckman in the side, except now he’s getting chopped out by a 190cm midfielder?

For the very reason we keep persisting with Tim in the side.
The coach believes he gives us more value in our team, albeit a non -conventional role, than Sweet would playing in a conventional ruck role in Tim's stead.
How did Preuss look against us playing a conventional ruck role? I reckon our coaches see Sweet being a similar liability were he to play in Tim's stead.
Tim went head to head with Grundy and Marshall in a conventional ruck rile and was completely smoked.

[Remi Moses]

We do need a second ruck
But that second ruck needs another string to his bow
The days of just lumping the second ruck in the forward locket are long gone
English is still raw in ruck years . Interesting times coming

[comrade]

For the very reason we keep persisting with Tim in the side.
The coach believes he gives us more value in our team, albeit a non -conventional role, than Sweet would playing in a conventional ruck role in Tim's stead.
How did Preuss look against us playing a conventional ruck role? I reckon our coaches see Sweet being a similar liability were he to play in Tim's stead.
Tim went head to head with Grundy and Marshall in a conventional ruck rile and was completely smoked.

They’re basing their decisions entirely on a hypothetical, and have no real results or evidence to back it up. If the best they can come up with is Dunkley, forgive me if I have doubts on the decision making abilities of the same coaching group that got us in this mess in the first place.

[comrade]

We do need a second ruck
But that second ruck needs another string to his bow
The days of just lumping the second ruck in the forward locket are long gone
English is still raw in ruck years . Interesting times coming

That’s what we’re doing with English after the centre bounce. He doesn’t even contest the ruck when it’s inside 50.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

For Bevo this is a perfect world. He has had 6 seasons to build it. When the team runs out it’s his team and its composition reflects his will. And its performance is his symphony.

I'm going to do my best here to ignore the melodramatic narrative you are so keen to weave and simply say as I have done above; yep Bevo and club are 100% accountable for the decisions made over multiple seasons in leaving our positional stocks so low in the ruck.

We are in this predicament because either they:
* drank their own bathwater in believing internal hype about where English's progression as a tap ruckman was at,
* or thinking that Trengove, and or a combo of Scache or Bruce could provide adequate cover.
Massive club failure; not just Bevo mind you, the whole football and recruiting department.

A caveat maybe that we don't know that they have tried to get cover in the off season. We aren't a destination club and have missed out on many other players we've targeted.

But I'm not about to smash them for trying to deal with the hand they've got. Maybe there is another way, but the thought process and the analysis given of how it has panned out stacks up as a legitimate strategy.
I'm confident there is rigour behind the tactic.

Sometimes I wish we'd thrown Sweet in earlier or persisted with Tim as a conventional ruck this year just to see how people would react to us being 15th instead of still a chance to play finals!!

[Remi Moses]

Last weekend he didn’t and I agree he should have contested more
I get it mate you want the coach gone
We get your continual shit bagging Of him
It’s getting a bit monotonous and tedious to be honest . Before you come at me with the rose colored glasses B/S
I’ve criticized him in posts on here , but you and a few others are just relentless
I’m getting off here because it’s getting very big footy

[DOG GOD]

So your okay with just listening to what outsiders say, because it lines up with your view, but not willing to hear from someone inside the club who might give some perspective on why we're doing what we do?

I make my own decisions and have my own views. I’ve said all along it’s a farce, well before I heard dunstall etc tonight. They obviously think the same way as I do. I’m quite willing to hear from someone inside the club about what we are doing, but the club has put themselves in this situation.

[bornadog]

For the very reason we keep persisting with Tim in the side.
The coach believes he gives us more value in our team, albeit a non -conventional role, than Sweet would playing in a conventional ruck role in Tim's stead.
How did Preuss look against us playing a conventional ruck role? I reckon our coaches see Sweet being a similar liability were he to play in Tim's stead.
Tim went head to head with Grundy and Marshall in a conventional ruck rile and was completely smoked.

Some great arguments put forward YHF, and I totally agree with what you have written.

I for one don't believe our losses were due to the ruck, there are a variety of reasons for every game.

[bornadog]

I make my own decisions and have my own views. I’ve said all along it’s a farce, well before I heard dunstall etc tonight. They obviously think the same way as I do. I’m quite willing to hear from someone inside the club about what we are doing, but the club has put themselves in this situation.

Well why won't you listen to the coach explain?

[comrade]

Sometimes I wish we'd thrown Sweet in earlier or persisted with Tim as a conventional ruck this year just to see how people would react to us being 15th instead of still a chance to play finals!!

We did play English as a traditional ruck, all the way through until a few weeks ago when it was clear he was completely cooked. In fact he had one of the most dominant games of the season against Essendon and since then has steadily gone down hill. Throwing Dunkley into the meat grinder has been a seemingly last ditch effort to provide support and change things up.

And why would we be 15th? Didn’t you say the ruck is just one aspect of our game plan and to have some nuance about its influence on our results?

[DOG GOD]

Well why won't you listen to the coach explain?
For the simple fact it won’t change my opinion on it.

[comrade]

Last weekend he didn’t and I agree he should have contested more
I get it mate you want the coach gone
We get your continual shit bagging Of him
It’s getting a bit monotonous and tedious to be honest . Before you come at me with the rose colored glasses B/S
I’ve criticized him in posts on here , but you and a few others are just relentless
I’m getting off here because it’s getting very big footy

I simply want more success, and until the right decisions are made (and we will know this because they will manifest themselves in the results) I will continue to point out where I think it’s going wrong. If the results trend up, I won’t have reason to criticise.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

For the simple fact it won’t change my opinion on it.

So when opportunity presents, from the inside, from people who are analysing this, you just flat out aren't up to considering their reasons, supported with evidence as to why they think this is a valid tactic?? But your totally down to listen to those, outside of the club, who support your narrative??
Yep that seems reasonable.

[DOG GOD]

So when opportunity presents, from the inside, from people who are analysing this, you just flat out aren't up to considering their reasons, supported with evidence as to why they think this is a valid tactic?? But your totally down to listen to those, outside of the club, who support your narrative??
Yep that seems reasonable.
Where did I say I would flat out not consider their reasoning.? Don’t put words in my mouth. All I’m saying is that no matter what they say as to their reasoning it won’t change my opinion of thinking using a mid to ruck is good for the team overall. As I said it’s MY opinion. I’m not gunna change my opinion coz Bevo says so.

Just because my opinion isn’t the same as yours or bevo or probably 95% of those on here doesn’t mean I can’t voice it. No?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Where did I say I would flat out not consider their reasoning.? Don’t put words in my mouth. All I’m saying is that no matter what they say as to their reasoning it won’t change my opinion of thinking using a mid to ruck is good for the team overall. As I said it’s MY opinion. I’m not gunna change my opinion coz Bevo says so.

Just because my opinion isn’t the same as yours or bevo or probably 95% of those on here doesn’t mean I can’t voice it. No?

Of course your entitled to your opinion. But you just said you aren't going to listen to what Bevo has to say, because it won't change your opinion??
But you're totally fine with listening to outsiders Dunstall and Riewoldt?

I don't know if what we're doing is the right thing, or the best thing.
But after hearing Bevo articulate, with supporting evidence, I'm at least satisfied that there is reason and data behind the decision.

What I don't like is people making a narrative, sticking to it, refusing to consider additional information, and ( not specifically you here) and continually doubling down on specious arguments around this particular topic to drive a broader narrative that they've already arrived at and aren't for changing no matter the evidence to the contrary.

This club has some big issues to solve strategically. They need to be held accountable for those decisions.
I just think that tactically in season, Bevo is doing his best to try and mitigate a strategic deficiency.

[DOG GOD]

Of course your entitled to your opinion. But you just said you aren't going to listen to what Bevo has to say, because it won't change your opinion??
But you're totally fine with listening to outsiders Dunstall and Riewoldt?

I don't know if what we're doing is the right thing, or the best thing.
But after hearing Bevo articulate, with supporting evidence, I'm at least satisfied that there is reason and data behind the decision.

What I don't like is people making a narrative, sticking to it, refusing to consider additional information, and ( not specifically you here) and continually doubling down on specious arguments around this particular topic to drive a broader narrative that they've already arrived at and aren't for changing no matter the evidence to the contrary.

This club has some big issues to solve strategically. They need to be held accountable for those decisions.
I just think that tactically in season, Bevo is doing his best to try and mitigate a strategic deficiency.

Lol well that 3rd paragraph certainly sounded like it was specifically me, but all good. I understand what you’re saying and I respect your opinion on it all. For the sake of winning the game against WC, let’s hope it works to some degree.

[bornadog]

A caveat maybe that we don't know that they have tried to get cover in the off season.

I think we have tried to fill the ruck role over the past few seasons. We went out and got Trengove as a back up to Tom Boyd and we recruited English and rookied Sweet. I don't think the club would have thought Tom would retire so early in his career through his mental health issues.

For whatever reason Trengove this year is not favoured, although he played against Richmond and got smashed. Sweet is still way off and Tim has not progressed as much as expected.

At the end of 2019, maybe we did try and get some one else, ( who knows) but I guess we thought Keath and Bruce was going to be hard enough to get and maybe English, Trengove and Sweet would be enough cover.

As I said earlier, ruck isn't our biggest issue, and it's not like we are getting smashed in clearances. No one likes to see Dunkley rucking.

The games we have lost have been due to leaking goals and mainly in a quarter, and that is a bigger issue, as our defence all over the ground has fallen apart.

[Grantysghost]

To me it's clear we thought English would at this stage of his development be at least equal to say a Mcinerney at the Lions, with natural progression to something better.

It hasn't happened that way and as clearly articulated today we are trying to counter that on the fly. I found that refreshing. I prefer that to sticking with something that isn't working. Dunks, as BAD said we all don't like to see it but all things considered (Sweet not ready, Trengove not covering the ground) it's where we are at. No point pretending we aren't, so let's work out the best alternative; what else can we do.

I'm of the opinion it's not our biggest issue either but something we need to recruit to improve. Until then it will be makeshift between a few I expect.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I guess tactically anyway, given where we are in season 2020 ruckwise, I'm content that the decision is being made based on data and reasoned analysis to go with what we're doing.
Is it our optimal desire strategically? I sure hope not! And based on the inside-club commentary about it, I'm content that our current approach to our ruck set up is a short-term attempt to try and find a way to take advantage of the competitive advantages Tim gives us away from the ruck contest. I don't think its born of a hard wired belief than it is the best long term approach to approaching the ruck contest.

I think some of our best performances this year have been where Tim has excelled at what he does best away from the tap.

As a few have pointed out, if Crozier takes at least one of those marking attempts in the last qtr against Geelong, we probably win.
Or if JJ or Bruce don't miss what they should've, we win.
If JJ doesn't fluff an easy handpass, we probably win.
If Vandermeer and Wood don't go down by half time, then we aren't forced to change our positional winning matchups, and we are less shaky and tired.

Its easier to focus on the optics of our ruck set up to find blame.
I just don't think that holds up under proper data driven scrutiny.

[soupman]

I'll concede that maybe beveridge has a point about it not being worth our while to even try to contend the ruck properly this week.

However, if we aren't going to play English in the ruck at all aside from centre bounces then should we play him at all? English looks buggered everytime he plays, hasn't performed that kick behind play role for about 2 months now and is hardly a threat up forward either as a target or converter. At the very least we should just rest him for a week and allow him to recover a bit seeing as he has looked exhausted for ages now.

I'd be advocating that if the ruck doesn't matter then don't pick a ruckman. Drop English, bring in someone who can contribute. Schache on his bad days isn't far off contributing what English is atm, but has much more upside as a resting forward. Young is mobile and ca good mark, plus provides depth down back should the Eagle talls get a hold of us. Cordy should be coming in regardless but I like him at either end.

I don't understand how we are still picking English if we aren't going to use him in anything he might be good at.

[soupman]

As for our plan going into this season, was it just play Tim English and hope? Prior to round 3 English has never ever looked like being anything more than just the tallest bloke in the side as a ruckman. He had shown glimpses around the ground but it was only in round 3 where we first saw that he could actually do something in the ruck (and he still only had 12 hitouts in that game).

We clearly decided early in the year that Trengove wasn't really our thing, and Sweet had shown promise but we clearly couldn't of thought he was ready then if we still don't, so our ruck plan really was just English and hope.

As for the theory that we would be 15th if we didn't try our weird setups, that may be true but do we think the setup we are running with (not just in the ruck but as a whole) that has gotten us this far is going to get us to even a prelim final? If not i personally would try to get good performances with a setup that we can work with going forward. If our long term plan is to not play a ruck and the current run of games will pay dividends on that front in future seasons thats fine, but a bit like our forwardline it feels a bit like we are just cobbling something together and hoping it works in he immediate term because we have run out of time and options to come up with anything else.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'll concede that maybe beveridge has a point about it not being worth our while to even try to contend the ruck properly this week.

However, if we aren't going to play English in the ruck at all aside from centre bounces then should we play him at all? English looks buggered everytime he plays, hasn't performed that kick behind play role for about 2 months now and is hardly a threat up forward either as a target or converter. At the very least we should just rest him for a week and allow him to recover a bit seeing as he has looked exhausted for ages now.

I'd be advocating that if the ruck doesn't matter then don't pick a ruckman. Drop English, bring in someone who can contribute. Schache on his bad days isn't far off contributing what English is atm, but has much more upside as a resting forward. Young is mobile and ca good mark, plus provides depth down back should the Eagle talls get a hold of us. Cordy should be coming in regardless but I like him at either end.

I don't understand how we are still picking English if we aren't going to use him in anything he might be good at.

Now that is debate worthy!
I'll get back to you later in the day, gotta run to get my son to his under 8's footy!

[comrade]

What I don't like is people making a narrative, sticking to it, refusing to consider additional information, and ( not specifically you here) and continually doubling down on specious arguments around this particular topic to drive a broader narrative that they've already arrived at and aren't for changing no matter the evidence to the contrary.


My issue is not just the ruck situation, which is a microcosm of the broader macro problems we face on field.

To put it bluntly, I doubt the decision making abilities of a head coach (and coaching group) that has failed more times than succeeded over the last 4 years and question whether the personnel that made the decisions that have brought us to this point have the ability to think their way out of the problem - as it's the same people.

And to touch on Bevo articulating his defence of the ruck situation so therefore we should accept it (versus taking the POV of outsiders like Riewoldt from your example), it's human nature to rationalise your decisions and throw in data/numbers/evidence, even if the decisions are ultimately wrong. Remember, doctors once publicly stated that smoking was good for you and presented data to support it.

(and I question how accurate the data on the rucking situation is given in 2020 we haven't actually seen Sweet, Young, Schache etc trialled as an alternative ruck option along side English. If it's the same type of data that led us to select Gowers, Butler, Weightman for multiple games and the ongoing selection of Josh Bruce etc then I have some serious doubts.)

Who's to say that Bevo isn't (in your words) 'making a narrative & sticking to it'? No matter how confident he sounds explaining his decision making, he's only human and vulnerable to faulty thinking.

A confident fool is still a fool.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's going to be a wet game again. You'd think that'd play to our advantage but our skills are so woeful with the slightest bit of moisture I'm not so sure. But it should limit the influence of the Eagles' talls.

[The Adelaide Connection]

It's going to be a wet game again. You'd think that'd play to our advantage but our skills are so woeful with the slightest bit of moisture I'm not so sure. But it should limit the influence of the Eagles' talls.

Surely this elevates the likes of Cavarra, with the ball theoretically hitting he deck more.

[bornadog]

It's going to be a wet game again. You'd think that'd play to our advantage but our skills are so woeful with the slightest bit of moisture I'm not so sure. But it should limit the influence of the Eagles' talls.

Argh, bad news on a wet day as the footy isn't as good

[azabob]

It's going to be a wet game again. You'd think that'd play to our advantage but our skills are so woeful with the slightest bit of moisture I'm not so sure. But it should limit the influence of the Eagles' talls.

Game over then. The wet will impact us more than them I think.

[bornadog]

Game over then. The wet will impact us more than them I think.

Why?

[azabob]

Why?

Our form in the wet this year. We really struggle to adjust to wet or slippery conditions.

[bornadog]

Our form in the wet this year. We really struggle to adjust to wet or slippery conditions.

Well I am staying positive

[Bulldog4life]

Well I am staying positive

It's more fun.:)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We’ve certainly looked a lot better in our only 2 day games this year.

[jeemak]

It's understandable why people question the list management and the decision making at the club. I guess when forming a view some folks decide that they'll take in a broad range of factors, and others will take a more narrow view.

I'm disappointed with the output of the side this year. With respect to the ruck it's possible we thought Sweet would progress more quickly than he has and that's left us short, it's also possible we thought either Schache or Young would be in a better place than they are now but they aren't (for whatever reason). With that in mind, and with Bruce coming into the side and thinking he might be able to help out you could argue that whilst being a little lean in the area it's not a completely unreasonable starting position. We don't know who we chased over the trade period, and we don't know that if putting another developing or mature ruck on the rookie list would alleviate the current situation.

Our forward structure has been heavily disrupted due to the inclusion of Bruce and the absence of Naughton. Having these players coming together was always going to take time to get working properly, and because of the latter issue and Bruce's fitness/ form (other?) issues the process has been drawn out. We clearly tried to address our other forward issues over through the most recent draft and last couple of trade periods but we haven't succeeded to the extent we would like, though again, like the ruck there's probably no point in filling your list with folks most likely not to get a game.

There's many more tangible reasons as to why we haven't achieved what we would have liked since 2016, and sure, you have to question decision making of the coach over the journey. However, I think on balance the tangible reasons for less than desired performance levels outweigh "the coach has lost the plot" narrative that many are trying to push at the moment. But each to their own I suppose.

[GVGjr]

Our form in the wet this year. We really struggle to adjust to wet or slippery conditions.

I think if we go into the game with the right attitude it might actually give us an edge. It's all about attitude and cracking in when playing in the wet
We won't start favourites but my money is on us.

This season is all about overcoming challenges, the game against West Coast is just another challenge

[jeemak]

Our form in the wet this year. We really struggle to adjust to wet or slippery conditions.

I think if we keep it simple and try to move the ball directly without giving WC marking defenders an easy time of it we're in with a solid chance.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think it's more the smaller touches that we seem to struggle with rather than the actual skills of handballing/marking/kicking. It's just taking possession where we seem to take an extra touch and that's all that's needed for the opposition to break a play. However I think for us, it's more related to pressure than the wet as evidenced last week against the cats. We were very clean in that first quarter but started fumbling everything when the pressure lifted.

[DOG GOD]

We fumbled enough in the dry on occasions, hate to think what wet/slippery conditions will be like if WC bring the pressure/perceived pressure. I don’t care if we kick it along the ground into our fwd 50, anything to not give their backline a chance to outmark us.

[Bullies]

We don't adapt to the wet which is not good when we handball as much as we do. This is where the top sides pull us apart. We need to be able change the way we play to suit the conditions.

In saying that I would rather watch the way we play and take it on rather than the crap that is currently being served up by other teams where 6 goals are winning games.

[dog town]

No Hurn for West Coast.

[azabob]

IN: Zaine Cordy, Sam Lloyd, Roarke Smith
OUT: Easton Wood (hamstring), Laitham Vandermeer (hamstring), Tory Dickson

[azabob]

Must admit I am underwhelmed by these selections.

[bornadog]

Outs were expected. Roarke I am unsure of

[azabob]

ROUND 16 TEAM

Western Bulldogs v West Coast Eagles
Sunday 6 August, 6.10pm AEST
Metricon Stadium

B: Zaine Cordy, Alex Keath, Caleb Daniel
HB: Bailey Williams, Ryan Gardner, Hayden Crozier
C: Bailey Smith, Jack Macrae, Jason Johannisen
HF: Toby McLean, Josh Bruce, Mitch Wallis
F: Tom Liberatore, Aaron Naughton, Lachie Hunter
Foll: Tim English, Marcus Bontempelli, Josh Dunkley
Int: Ed Richards, Sam Lloyd, Will Hayes, Roarke Smith
Emer: Ben Cavarra, Pat Lipinski, Lachie Young, Jordon Sweet

[Vred]

Well *!*!*!*!..

[The bulldog tragician]

Apart from Cordy, not what I wanted to see at all. Roarke and Lloyd have not shone in their opportunities so far.

[The Underdog]

I'm sure there's a plan. But I'm *!*!*!*!ed if I know what it is. At least we have some tall depth if we need to swing things around.
It's impressive that Sam Lloyd has gone from 38 goals last year, to, I wish he hadn't signed a contract extension/why the *!*!*!*! is he in the team.

[DOG GOD]

Well there you go.

[The bulldog tragician]

Natanui not rested as we hoped/prayed, and Josh Kennedy back.

[Eastdog]

Will be tough Sunday evening.

[Eastdog]

Natanui not rested as we hoped/prayed, and Josh Kennedy back.

Makes it even tougher for us.

[comrade]

We’re only 1 selection away from the golden quartet of Gardner, Hayes, Roarke & Gowers all playing together.

[azabob]

I would’ve preferred Suckling or Dale over Lloyd.

[Vred]

Will be tough Sunday evening.

Ill be at work for half this game and I’m pretty sure my partner and neighbours are probably happier for it.

[Grantysghost]

To be honest I'd prefer to beat them with their best players in.

[angelopetraglia]

Hurn and Shuey out are massive. Hurn has absolutely destroyed us in our recent encounters.

[comrade]

Hurn and Shuey out are massive. Hurn has absolutely destroyed us in our recent encounters.

Yep, good for us.

[azabob]

Hurn and Shuey out are massive. Hurn has absolutely destroyed us in our recent encounters.

No Yeo either.

[Bullies]

Makes it even tougher for us. With Roarke in.

[comrade]

What role will Roarke be given?

[Rocket Science]

Sigh. Not much qualitative sheen there.

The cupboard's admittedly looking a little bare for genuine difference-makers.

Fully expect Lloyd to perform a pitch-perfect rendition of Dickson's game from last week.

[comrade]

Sigh. Not much qualitative sheen there.

The cupboard's admittedly looking a little bare for genuine difference-makers.

Fully expect Lloyd to perform a pitch-perfect rendition of Dickson's game from last week.

Pretty disappointed that we haven't backed Cavarra in.

[G-Mo77]

Pretty disappointed that we haven't backed Cavarra in.

Same. I would have liked to see him get the rest of the season and see what we have there. I hope he's not thrown in the scrap heap like Young and Co.

I'm honestly done with Lloyd, another slow leading small forward with no forward pressure. It just shows our real lack of depth.

Smith? Meh. Good luck to him but yeah, see above.

Cordy a great in and will help out that backline who need all the help they can get.

[GVGjr]

We have gone in a little taller so we can match their taller forward line-up
All things considered it should be a good game

[Rocco Jones]

What role will Roarke be given?

A 'multidimensional' one.

I think that's the term Bevo used.

[kruder]

How many chances has Smith had? Bevo definitely has his favourites.

West Coast are gettable there is no doubt I just hope Dunkley rucking doesn’t cost us again.

[SquirrelGrip]

What role will Roarke be given?

Ruck

[DOG GOD]

Will Cordy take the defensive 50 ruck duties, or will it be Nic Nat vs Dunkley ?

[comrade]

Ruck

Why not!?

[bornadog]

I doubt Dunkley will ruck, well not against Nicnat

You can throw in one or two other players, but at the end of the day it won't make much difference. If we are good enough we will win

[Bullies]

What role will Roarke be given? Loose man on the forward line

[Bullies]

A 'multidimensional' one.

I think that's the term Bevo used. That means he can both skate and surf

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We always appear to have patience with players not up to the level (Smith a prime example, but Gowers/Gardner/Prudden/Mulligan/Ayce Cordy all spring to mind) yet very little for players who appear to have natural ability (Schache/Young/Cavarra), both before and during Bevos reign.

What's the MC's plans for Roarke now and for the future? How does he offer more than any of those not picked + La Young? I just don't see the rationale.

It's almost certain Roarke will offer little and get dropped next week.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I doubt Dunkley will ruck, well not against Nicnat

You can throw in one or two other players, but at the end of the day it won't make much difference. If we are good enough we will win

Agree.
We'll win or lose this based on the effectiveness or otherwise of our core players, and as MJP has said whether we allow ourselves to feed McGovern with interceptable kicks.
This has to be a last chance for Bruce to find some semblance of form. His continued ineffectiveness worries me more than whether Roarke, Lloyd or Gardner make mistakes.
If we come out like we did against Geelong we should really stretch this West Coast team.

[Doc26]

There’s often so much angst with selection when talking about players on the fringes e.g. Roarke, Lloyd, Dale, Suckling, Schache, Young, Greene, Lipinski, Gardner, Hayes etc. The thing is, all these players need to show more and demand selection like Bailey Smith from day dot, Bailey Williams after some time, and like what Vandermeer has done more recently. Dahlhaus was the same. He put in that many commanding / consistent performances in the VFL that his time came and he took it. However, we do need to be a bit more ruthless in turning fringe players over who have had their time, to give an opportunity for the next Vandermeer to breakthrough.

[Grantysghost]

I guess every side has fringe guys that are in and out of the team. Constantly lamenting the fact seems seriously like yelling into the wind (not amongst the fine folk here of course). It's up to our main stays really; I'm backing those boys in this week to drag the others along with them.

[DOG GOD]

I’m just finding the MC selections “head scratching” when certain players are just being rehashed in and out of the team, while others can’t even get a look in to show what they can offer.

[Happy Days]

The bottom few player do matter. When you field 3-4 guys who can’t play every week then its like playing cricket without a number 6 or a second change bowler. Its just so frustrating to see the same guys who we know can’t play fronting up week after week.

[jeemak]

I think it's pretty lineball whether beyond bringing Zaine in there's a difference between anyone we could have brought in to replace the other outs.

I think Dale and Lloyd are more likely to have an impact against the Eagles than the likes of Cavarra, Weightman and West, so that decision sort of makes sense to me though I'd have gone with Dale personally. It was clear the MC were going to continue to back Gardner and Bruce, and I think Smith is likely to give us more than LA Young as a utility though I'm sure if Suckling or Duryea were right to go they'd have been preferred.

None of these ins apart from Cordy will likely be the difference between winning and losing, hopefully Lloyd can jag a couple and Smith can be safe with the footy and put on midfield pressure like he has shown he can on occasion.

[jeemak]

The bottom few player do matter. When you field 3-4 guys who can’t play every week then its like playing cricket without a number 6 or a second change bowler. Its just so frustrating to see the same guys who we know can’t play fronting up week after week.

But we're going to be fielding such guys because of our lack of depth. It's not like we're leaving megastars on the sidelines.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

My issue is not just the ruck situation, which is a microcosm of the broader macro problems we face on field.

To put it bluntly, I doubt the decision making abilities of a head coach (and coaching group) that has failed more times than succeeded over the last 4 years and question whether the personnel that made the decisions that have brought us to this point have the ability to think their way out of the problem - as it's the same people.

And to touch on Bevo articulating his defence of the ruck situation so therefore we should accept it (versus taking the POV of outsiders like Riewoldt from your example), it's human nature to rationalise your decisions and throw in data/numbers/evidence, even if the decisions are ultimately wrong. Remember, doctors once publicly stated that smoking was good for you and presented data to support it.

(and I question how accurate the data on the rucking situation is given in 2020 we haven't actually seen Sweet, Young, Schache etc trialled as an alternative ruck option along side English. If it's the same type of data that led us to select Gowers, Butler, Weightman for multiple games and the ongoing selection of Josh Bruce etc then I have some serious doubts.)

Who's to say that Bevo isn't (in your words) 'making a narrative & sticking to it'? No matter how confident he sounds explaining his decision making, he's only human and vulnerable to faulty thinking.

A confident fool is still a fool.

At the end of the day I guess it comes down to whether or not decisions are being made in a calculated, sttategic,methodical, unemotive manner.
Bevo worked in my organisation for several years and from conversations I've had with people he worked with,for and to they tell a very consistent story. He's no fool, he is a strategic and rational person who can synthesise and analyse complex days to drive his ideas. He takes on board feedback and challenges convention. He empowers people to back themselves, and will take responsibility when things don't go well.
No doubt my view is biased from the legacy he has left on the place I work and the people who still speak with admiration both for his work and his leadership.

I am regularly baffled by things like selections, and tactics. But my confusion is tempered by the fact that I'm confident that he's not just doing things out of a hunch, or without having sought out and crunched reams of data to arrive at a decision.
I think we're at an extreme disadvantage as outsiders in that any public speaking he or any other coach does about selections or tactics is always going to be broad so as not to give away or reveal much to the opposition. Therefore when I hear him speak about the metrics about of clearances across the year, or our scoring from stoppages, I'm pretty confident that's just the high level stuff he's giving away - which is common knowledge anyway. But based on his work in my organisation, that's just the start of it. Any conclusions drawn are a result of a much deeper analysis he and his team are doing.

Look he's ultimately going to be judged harshly if he fails to improve things in the next 12 months. Its a results driven business. But it just rubs me the wrong way when I hear some people attribute his decisions in simplistic terms. Eg he has his favourites, or he is just stubborn, or any other perjoratives thrown about that try to indicate he's not applying good rigour in his decisions.
The decisions may ultimately prove to be wrong, but I am confident they're not derived from a lack of rigourous thought or without him seeking feedback or getting buy in from the players themselves.