List Management for 2020/21

[kruder]

Its amazing how much Daicos has improved this year, with his brother coming in soon I can't see him leaving but someone is going to fall out of Collingwood that's for sure. I'm hoping we are are sitting in the slips ready willing and able to take a catch.

I still think we should be all over Narkle at Geelong he has the flexibility that Bevo likes and can win his own ball which is handy for a small forward/mid. Perfect Mclean replacement and can tackle too.

Whats peoples thoughts on Darcy Mac? I'd happily swap him for Cav from what I've seen at this stage. We do have VDM, West and Garcia to add a little hard edge but Darcy might be worth a crack at a cheap price if we miss on others. Only kicked 4 goals this year which is a bit of a worry, but just from the eye his pressure is very good.

There is a defender that took my eye at Port called Lienert, only seen him once but played a great game against Collingwood, but was dropped for the final. He is an SA boy but been on the list a few years now without much opportunity might be worth a look.

Love to get Hammer back obviously, really like him as a player

[soupman]

I think McPherson and West are quite similiar so would be reluctant to pursue him too hard when we have other types more in need.

I agree i think we should be all over Narkle.

[Axe Man]

I raised Cox in this very thread back in August. I now get the impression being an SA boy, Crows are in the box seat.

So. Many. Double. Entendres.

[kruder]

These are the two fundamental qualities we need to bring into our side. Oh and a ruckman.

Hear hear we need a harder edge. I do giggle a little when the media keep brining up 2016 when we make finals that's the definition of lazy journalism, the side is totally different. The other thing they get wrong is that we actually finished 2015 regular season 5th, we didn't come from 13th the year prior.

Picken, M.Boyd. Morris, Clay, Dahl, Biggsy, Libba thats the harder edge we are talking about. Our pressure on Saturday was like a regular season game until we fix it we will continue to fail when the big games role around.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I raised Cox in this very thread back in August. I now get the impression being an SA boy, Crows are in the box seat.

Cox has just signed a two year extension (this week).

[bornadog]

Hear hear we need a harder edge. I do giggle a little when the media keep brining up 2016 when we make finals that's the definition of lazy journalism, the side is totally different. The other thing they get wrong is that we actually finished 2015 regular season 5th, we didn't come from 13th the year prior.

Picken, M.Boyd. Morris, Clay, Dahl, Biggsy, Libba thats the harder edge we are talking about. Our pressure on Saturday was like a regular season game until we fix it we will continue to fail when the big games role around.

I think after the GWS game this year, we really turned it around and didn't get pushed around like in the past. As Bont said, the group has matured and know how to deal with teams coming after them.

[jeemak]

I think after the GWS game this year, we really turned it around and didn't get pushed around like in the past. As Bont said, the group has matured and know how to deal with teams coming after them.

Just have to get better at going after other teams now.

[1eyedog]

True.

We have played Naughton, Bruce and English up forward, so 2MP, could interchange with English - Ruck/Forward, so maybe we don't move either?

Can Schache be reinvented as a backman, ala Liam Jones

Why the hell did we throw Roughie on the scrap heap!!! Can ruck can play back. It's the worst thing we could have done.

[Happy Days]

Why the hell did we throw Roughie on the scrap heap!!! Can ruck can play back. It's the worst thing we could have done.

Why we turfed Roughead and brought in Trengove was puzzling at the time and has not become any less so since.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I said at the time it was a stupid move; Roughy had JT covered as both a ruck AND key defender.

Nothing has changed since.

[Axe Man]

Bur what about Lewis Jetta? He is actually a bit younger than Smith and a 2 time premiership player who might be available.

Some talk Jetta could be gettable. He's 31 and out of contract, cost should be negligible.


EAGLES STAR’S FUTURE UP IN THE AIR

Lewis Jetta could be on the outs at West Coast after the speedy midfielder managed only six games in 2020.

Eagles coach Adam Simpson was open-ended when asked about the future of the two-time premiership player.

“I think it’ll be a little bit unfair to go through every spot on the list because you’ll land on one that I don’t want to talk about,” Simpson said to 7 news when asked about Jetta.

“It is really hard to exit your players and do an end of season review when half our squad is in quarantine and the other (group) are free.

“We’ll wait until next Monday before we get into the player exits and reviews. We’ll go from there.”

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Why the hell did we throw Roughie on the scrap heap!!! Can ruck can play back. It's the worst thing we could have done.

This is my biggest issue. I would love to know how this transpired.
Roughie said he was close to retiring, and needed a change...
So he wins a premiership, with the club he grew up supporting and within 2 years is burned out and we give him a way and becomes a best 22 defender in a top performing club?
I just would love to know how this happens, and whether or not it highlights where some of our issues are borne.

[comrade]

I said at the time it was a stupid move; Roughy had JT covered as both a ruck AND key defender.

Nothing has changed since.

The fact we're still lamenting a decision made 3 years ago just shows how much we've stagnated in that time.

I hate treading water, North Melbourne like. Nothing worse than finishing low-mid table and never truly being a contender for years on end.

[bornadog]

Some talk Jetta could be gettable. He's 31 and out of contract, cost should be negligible.

The AFL are so piss poor in not resolving the list numbers for the future.

[bornadog]

Why the hell did we throw Roughie on the scrap heap!!! Can ruck can play back. It's the worst thing we could have done.

Who knows?

All past history, same can be said why we let Liam go?

I hate dwelling in the past. I want answers for next year. :D

[G-Mo77]

Why the hell did we throw Roughie on the scrap heap!!! Can ruck can play back. It's the worst thing we could have done.

Please don't bring this one up. I was pretty livid when it happened and I really haven't simmered much since. What a waste!!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Some talk Jetta could be gettable. He's 31 and out of contract, cost should be negligible.

Jetta 31!?

Where did time go.

But yes - I would pick up the phone.

[bornadog]

Please don't bring this one up. I was pretty livid when it happened and I really haven't simmered much since. What a waste!!

Ok, I will dwell in the past. Roughy was a serviceable ruckman, nothing special. His numbers are similar to Tom Boyd and English.

At the end of 2016, we Recruited English which meant we had a young Boyd, and English coming through plus we traded for Trengove in 2017. Roughie could see he will be struggling to find a spot. Perhaps we should have had the foresight to put him at Fullback, but we had Trengove for that role as well as Adams. We weren't to know Tom Boyd and Adams would be gone a year later.

Yes, he would have been handy on Saturday, but it just didn't.

[kruder]

I think after the GWS game this year, we really turned it around and didn't get pushed around like in the past. As Bont said, the group has matured and know how to deal with teams coming after them.

We didn't bring the heat in the final BD, tackling was awful that was not final pressure out there. This was from a side that had redemption on their minds, the group just doesn't have it naturally we need to add it.

[Danjul]

Ok, I will dwell in the past. Roughy was a serviceable ruckman, nothing special. His numbers are similar to Tom Boyd and English.

At the end of 2016, we Recruited English which meant we had a young Boyd, and English coming through plus we traded for Trengove in 2017. Roughie could see he will be struggling to find a spot. Perhaps we should have had the foresight to put him at Fullback, but we had Trengove for that role as well as Adams. We weren't to know Tom Boyd and Adams would be gone a year later.

Yes, he would have been handy on Saturday, but it just didn't.

Roughy played as a very serviceable full back before he was used as first ruck. Good overhead mark and long kick. That’s why Collingwood wanted him as a backman.

[soupman]

I've gone through every list and compiled a list of players that could be of interest. They are split into a few different categories that I consider needs and I'll kick it off with one I don't think is necessarily a desperate need but has a few interesting names in the group.

Hit up forwards.

I think we lack a tall forward that can work up the ground, still get back to be a threat deep and is not a liability on the ground. I don't expect them to be able to ruck, but I do expect them to be a regular player we go through as we push forward and would not be happy with them just trying to break even in marking contests.

These are my candidates.

Jack Gunston. 28 years old. Is everything I would want and would be an amazing get. We should absolutely be asking the question and Hawthorn must be vulnerable atm, they are terrible and will probably have to dip into the draft as their "trade in broken players" strategy is not working.

Tom Lynch. 30. A really good hit up forward who gets involved up the ground. Adelaide like Hawthorn are thinking youth and could be open to letting a guy go who is not part of their premiership plans.

Jake Waterman. 22. Out of contract. Highly rated and almost a regular (played 10 games this year). Very mobile for his size, I've generally liked him when I've watched them. He is out of contract so potentially vulnerable, even with Kennedy nearly done.

Brody Mihocek. 27. Out of contract. Been discussed here a lot, does a lot of stuff well and as he showed on Saturday can outperform his ability.

Josh Caddy. 28. My least favourite on this list (hence last listed), plays like a tall and has been effective in the past. Only managed 8 games this year, I suspect due to injury but haven't bothered checking.

*I know a few (maybe even all) of these guys have been brought up here before, but thought it was better to list them out in a group.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Summed it up well soup. That type of player isn't a huge need given our shortcomings elsewhere, but there are some handy names on that list. Gunston is clearly the pick of the lot, wonder what he'd cost? Are the Hawks willing to actually rebuild?

Lynch is a good suggestion, worried he might be cooked and well past his best but perhaps being at a better team would see his game flourish again.

Waterman is a great option, like his aggression. Mihocek similar. I suspect both are unlikely to leave, but I guess money talks.

Caddy is an interesting one. He was great a couple of years ago but has seemingly fell off the map. Bit like Wallis, one paced but strong. I'd pass but I think he should be playing seniors somewhere.

The devil in me says we have a similar player to these types on our list (Schache), so paying a decent amount to get one of the above over probably isn't worth it. Having said that, it all depends on the price and what else is available.

[Bulldog4life]

Schack did have a number of injuries in the second half of the season. True he was dropped savagely but really never had the time to work on it uninjured and push for a place. The potential plus side with Schack is worth keeping him on, particularly ahead of players like Dale, Gowers, Greene and Lloyd, and with Dicko retired. He's our mobile forward mid who happens to be a lot taller.

Can we find him a mentor who will turn it around for him? Johnno maybe?

Ashley Hansen is our forward line coach. Playing for West Coast as a centre half forward he kicked 95 goals from 78 games. Injury cruelled him. Even played a similar type game as Schache. There's your mentor.

[Bulldog4life]

Summed it up well soup. That type of player isn't a huge need given our shortcomings elsewhere, but there are some handy names on that list. Gunston is clearly the pick of the lot, wonder what he'd cost? Are the Hawks willing to actually rebuild?

Lynch is a good suggestion, worried he might be cooked and well past his best but perhaps being at a better team would see his game flourish again.

Waterman is a great option, like his aggression. Mihocek similar. I suspect both are unlikely to leave, but I guess money talks.

Caddy is an interesting one. He was great a couple of years ago but has seemingly fell off the map. Bit like Wallis, one paced but strong. I'd pass but I think he should be playing seniors somewhere.

The devil in me says we have a similar player to these types on our list (Schache), so paying a decent amount to get one of the above over probably isn't worth it. Having said that, it all depends on the price and what else is available.

Agree TBB. This should be Schache's role for the club going forward if he stays. If we managed to get one of those you have mentioned it is no good hanging onto Schache.

[bornadog]

Ashley Hansen is our forward line coach. Playing for West Coast as a centre half forward he kicked 95 goals from 78 games. Injury cruelled him. Even played a similar type game as Schache. There's your mentor.

Personally I think it is time to get a new forward coach and bring in some fresh ideas.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Personally I think it is time to get a new forward coach and bring in some fresh ideas.

I'm not sure who on exactly who needs to go, but I do think we are well overdue for a change in our coaching lineup.. just not sure it's going to happen this year, with all the upheaval and staff reduction.

[azabob]

Personally I think it is time to get a new forward coach and bring in some fresh ideas.

I see you are slowly softening your view on changes needed.

[GVGjr]

Ashley Hansen is our forward line coach. Playing for West Coast as a centre half forward he kicked 95 goals from 78 games. Injury cruelled him. Even played a similar type game as Schache. There's your mentor.

Hansen was quite a player and I suspect he would be a good mentor for Schache. The problem appears about how we develop our taller boys. We've tended to trade for KPP in recent years

[GVGjr]

I'm not sure who on exactly who needs to go, but I do think we are well overdue for a change in our coaching lineup.. just not sure it's going to happen this year, with all the upheaval and staff reduction.

Good point, it's a mess for all clubs at the moment.

[azabob]

Good point, it's a mess for all clubs at the moment.

It has not stopped North making wholesale changes.

Justin Leppitsch is free - we need to convince him to put on hold his sabbatical for a little while longer.

PS GVGjr - I love your new avatar.

[Happy Days]

Justin Leppitsch is free - we need to convince him to put on hold his sabbatical for a little while longer.



Why though. Leppitsch is one of the worst senior coaches of all time. Just because he got to hang around Dusty for a few years after doesn't mean he's any good.

[soupman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't coaches who weren't getting another season have to be told as such a few weeks ago? Around the time when we announced Corey and Morris wouldn't be around anymore? Does that indicate we have committed to the rest of our coaching staff already? If so....yuck.

[bornadog]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't coaches who weren't getting another season have to be told as such a few weeks ago? Around the time when we announced Corey and Morris wouldn't be around anymore? Does that indicate we have committed to the rest of our coaching staff already? If so....yuck.

I thought the assistant coaches contracts go to end of August, so you may be right. I know Ben Graham was told he is no longer needed but chose to hang around and help through to the end.

[soupman]

Ok got a bunch more prospects for us to look at, this time around, pacy attacking wingmen to work opposite Hunter. I guess theoretically JJ could play that role, but I do think we could do better and the club seems to agree having chased Isaac Smith in the past.

So here are the names.

First up, Isaac Smith. 31 years old. Out of contract. We have shown interest in the past, he is a free agent, experienced, attacking and still good for probably 2-3 years. I don't love him but he is as attainable and ready to go as anybody in the league.

Lewis Jetta. 31. Out of contract. Brought up by Axe Man a couple of pages ago, he has an awesome kick, great pace and doesn't seem to be in the Eagles plans.

Kane Lambert. 28. A slightly different direction, Lambert still has quite a few years left in him and does not appear to be on the way out. But he is good, would play the role really well and would possibly only cost a second rounder. I think he is worth considering making a play for.

Tom Phillips. 24. Accumulator a bit like Hunter he doesn't seem to have too many weapons but is a very impressive runner and generally good all round. Collingwood didn't fight too hard to sign him up last year and with their contract delimnas might be willing to part ways with a guy they don't think is essential.

Oleg Markov. 24. Out of contract. Quick and direct runner. More of a halfback but think he could play on a wing and could give us a bit more movement across the field. Instant cult figure too, and must be cheap. Gold Coast apparently interested.

Oskar Baker. 22. A bit like Markov he is quick and plays quite direct. Is generally more of a forward kind of in the Vandermeer role, and has shown he can hit the scoreboard. Hasn't got much of a look in at the Dees and I think he would add something to our side.

Lochie O'Brien. 21. High draft pick who hasn't really progressed and only managed 1 game this year. I'm not really sure about him, all I know is he has a big forehead, but if he is available for cheap he could assist in giving us another wing option.

Brayden Fiorini. 23. Victorian who has only been given 5 games this year after being a regular in the past. Had a top 5 BnF finish and elevated to the leadership group in 2019 so not sure what happened, but is a accumulator like Hunter. Probably not a different enough type to Hunter to seriously consider, as I don't think he is a linebreaker like most of the other guys are here.

Conor Blakely. 24. Highly rated flanker type who is composed on the ball and pretty rangy. Not quick like a lot of others here but I see him as being a bit like Bailey Williams pre 2020, you can see he has the attributes to be a good player but for whatever reason he can't get any form going. Could be a good buy low moment.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great work again soup.

From that list, I'm only interested in Jetta, Smith and Markov. These three offer what we lack - pace, ability to break lines and skill (though Markov is far less proven, but he's a useful player).

Lambert is a good player but not sure he brings a point of difference to our side. Phillips is OK but he doesn't have hurt factor, the rest of the names are basically similar.

More I think about it, the more I want us to go for Lewis Jetta. He ticks many boxes for us, he can play multiple positions, he runs and carries the ball, great skills, pace etc.

[SquirrelGrip]

With Daniher signalling his intention to go to Brisbane, could we get Ben Cavarra and Tom Boyd into the ear of Daniel McStay as a versatile swinging big man?

[mjp]

More I think about it, the more I want us to go for Lewis Jetta. He ticks many boxes for us, he can play multiple positions, he runs and carries the ball, great skills, pace etc.

It's hard to play when you are petrified.

[Doc26]

With Daniher signalling his intention to go to Brisbane, could we get Ben Cavarra and Tom Boyd into the ear of Daniel McStay as a versatile swinging big man?

Would like this if Daniel would be open to moving back to Melbourne.

btw What's the Cavarra link to McStay?

[Doc26]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't coaches who weren't getting another season have to be told as such a few weeks ago? Around the time when we announced Corey and Morris wouldn't be around anymore? Does that indicate we have committed to the rest of our coaching staff already? If so....yuck.

A Bulldog For Life also applies to our coaching arrangements.

[GVGjr]

Ok got a bunch more prospects for us to look at, this time around, pacy attacking wingmen to work opposite Hunter. I guess theoretically JJ could play that role, but I do think we could do better and the club seems to agree having chased Isaac Smith in the past.

So here are the names.

First up, Isaac Smith. 31 years old. Out of contract. We have shown interest in the past, he is a free agent, experienced, attacking and still good for probably 2-3 years. I don't love him but he is as attainable and ready to go as anybody in the league.

Tom Phillips. 24. Accumulator a bit like Hunter he doesn't seem to have too many weapons but is a very impressive runner and generally good all round. Collingwood didn't fight too hard to sign him up last year and with their contract delimnas might be willing to part ways with a guy they don't think is essential.

Conor Blakely. 24. Highly rated flanker type who is composed on the ball and pretty rangy. Not quick like a lot of others here but I see him as being a bit like Bailey Williams pre 2020, you can see he has the attributes to be a good player but for whatever reason he can't get any form going. Could be a good buy low moment.

These are the ones I think have some value for us. Smith was huge for the Hawks early in the season and we could easily get 2 good seasons from him

Phillips is a more than solid midfielder and I think he could add something for us and the is enough upside with Blakely that would interest me.

I think we are very likely to only bring in 2 established players from other clubs. O'Halloran would be my preference but the players could offer us something.

Is Hamling in any way gettable?

By the way, thanks Soupaman, you've really added some quality players to consider

[Grantysghost]

Would like this if Daniel would be open to moving back to Melbourne.

btw What's the Cavarra link to McStay?

I think they all came through Eastern Ranges together in their U18 year.

[soupman]

I think we are very likely to only bring in 2 established players from other clubs. O'Halloran would be my preference but the players could offer us something.

I suspect it will only be a couple also, which would be a shame as i really think a bunch of these guys could be acquired quite cheaply and would be able to either offer us something we don't already have, improve on what we are already fielding or could even emerge as very good players.

I think St.Kilda showed that recruits don't need to be stars to make an impact, arguably Brad Hill their star recruit has had a relatively lower impact than some of the "worse" guys.

The trade market is basically free for any players that aren't immediately best 22 so if we cut a fair few players this year as we should then we are much better served bringing in ready to go talent than gambling on low percentage talent id through the draft.

[jeemak]

The problem is you need to have cash to throw around. The difference between us and the Saints is we already had or have justifiably high earning players on our list whereas they didn't.

If the next couple of years don't work out for them like they hope it will, they'll end up with no money to spend to enable them to take the next step. It's not as if they're winning a flag right now, this could be just a sugar hit for them.

[ledge]

The problem is you need to have cash to throw around. The difference between us and the Saints is we already had or have justifiably high earning players on our list whereas they didn't.

If the next couple of years don't work out for them like they hope it will, they'll end up with no money to spend to enable them to take the next step. It's not as if they're winning a flag right now, this could be just a sugar hit for them.

They might just win it .

[SonofScray]

They might just win it .

I hope not. Fingers crossed they have to wait even longer.

Will we get some announcements today regarding delisting?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The problem is you need to have cash to throw around. The difference between us and the Saints is we already had or have justifiably high earning players on our list whereas they didn't.

If the next couple of years don't work out for them like they hope it will, they'll end up with no money to spend to enable them to take the next step. It's not as if they're winning a flag right now, this could be just a sugar hit for them.

Who would be on high coin for us Jeemak?

Bont
JJ
Bruce
Macrae?

And how many are currently performing up to their price tag? JJ and Bruce certainly aren’t.

Naughton and English will certainly command it soon. As will Bailey Smith. The saints will need to factor future growth of their young stars too. Billings will want more. Steele only signed for two years and after his AA selection he’ll want a juicy contract. Then you’ve got Coffield and Clark who’ll attract decent coin. If Butler keeps this seasons form up, he’ll get a decent pay rise as would Marshall and Gresham. They’re still throwing money around so they’ll need to be careful with an eye to retaining their current young guns. The challenge for the saints will be maintaining the rage. The newness will be gone next season and the expectations much higher. Oppositions will also be familiar with them.

[jazzadogs]

Who would be on high coin for us Jeemak?

Bont
JJ
Bruce
Macrae?

And how many are currently performing up to their price tag? JJ and Bruce certainly aren’t.

Naughton and English will certainly command it soon. As will Bailey Smith. The saints will need to factor future growth of their young stars too. Billings will want more. Steele only signed for two years and after his AA selection he’ll want a juicy contract. Then you’ve got Coffield and Clark who’ll attract decent coin. If Butler keeps this seasons form up, he’ll get a decent pay rise as would Marshall and Gresham. They’re still throwing money around so they’ll need to be careful with an eye to retaining their current young guns. The challenge for the saints will be maintaining the rage. The newness will be gone next season and the expectations much higher. Oppositions will also be familiar with them.

I would think the average wage for our top 10-15 players would be a fair bit higher than what the Saints was prior to the trade-ins last year. I don't think we have it all squirrelled away in a couple of players, but our overall spend would be higher because we had better 'good' players/players who could demand better contracts for the last few seasons.

Hopefully when we missed out on Wingard/Martin they restructured deals to front-end them, taking advantage of the salary cap space that opened up, and leaving more space open in future years for growth of existing players (e.g. Bailey Smith, Naughton, English, VDM deserving more) and trade options.

[Mofra]

With Daniher signalling his intention to go to Brisbane, could we get Ben Cavarra and Tom Boyd into the ear of Daniel McStay as a versatile swinging big man?
If we are going to get in the ear of any Brisbane KPP, I hope we talk to Sam Skinner.

We did like him in his draft year, had two knee recos but can play both ends. Last pre-season he showed promise as a ruck/forward although I believe he was drafted as a defender. Joe Daniher shuffles him back in the pecking order and he'd cost little in picks/cap.

[SquirrelGrip]

If we are going to get in the ear of any Brisbane KPP, I hope we talk to Sam Skinner.

We did like him in his draft year, had two knee recos but can play both ends. Last pre-season he showed promise as a ruck/forward although I believe he was drafted as a defender. Joe Daniher shuffles him back in the pecking order and he'd cost little in picks/cap.

From https://www.lions.com.au/players/775/sam-skinner

Sam Skinner

Sam Skinner has experienced many highs and lows since arriving at the Lions in late 2015. Within 24 hours of being told he would be making his senior debut in Round 19, 2016 against Port Adelaide, a scan revealed he had ruptured his ACL for a second time.

He would have to wait another 12 months to finally make his debut in Round 19, 2017. He was a force against West Coast and kicked two goals. Unfortunately, he would again tear his ACL later that season while playing in the NEAFL and missed the rest of the season.
Skinner alternates between the forward and backline and will be itching to get back into the senior side in 2020.
Fun fact: Sam Skinner is a keen guitarist with a voice to match

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The double ACL tear is a concern.

[soupman]

The double ACL tear is a concern.

Offset by the positive guitar and vocal ability though.

[Grantysghost]

The double ACL tear is a concern.

I believe its 3 x ACL.

[Happy Days]

I believe its 3 x ACL.

Can he play Wonderwall

[comrade]

Can he play Wonderwall

Heard he does a mean cover of Vance Joy's Riptide.

[bornadog]

i believe its 3 x acl.

big no

[Axe Man]

big no

Libba has done 2, would you say no to him?

From what I gather he did the first before he was drafted in 2015, then again in 2016 and 2017. So on the plus side he's gone 3 years without doing an ACL! I would leave that one with the medicos to decide. On paper he does sound attractive though (apart from his knees) and seems surplus to Brisbane's needs.

[Mofra]

The list of out of contract players is relatively uninspiring, with more signing contracts by the day.
There remains a tiny chance one of Freo's KPDs could be pried loose - Cox (just re-signed), Pearce (untouchable, potential future captain), Hamling and Logue.

The market for rucks is tight too with Hawthorn, Sydney & GWS all hunting for one.

[Happy Days]

Skinner is the right size but I get the feeling we're kind of overlooking his ability. He looked awful in his two games at the level this year.

[Grantysghost]

Heard he does a mean cover of Vance Joy's Riptide.

Ah, I heard a really good live version of that somewhere about four years ago...now where was that....

[Rocket Science]

The list of out of contract players is relatively uninspiring, with more signing contracts by the day.
There remains a tiny chance one of Freo's KPDs could be pried loose - Cox (just re-signed), Pearce (untouchable, potential future captain), Hamling and Logue.

The market for rucks is tight too with Hawthorn, Sydney & GWS all hunting for one.

This all day long.

Yeah we've got a couple of structural holes to plug but there ain't no saviour out there lurking in the weeds of other club's discards and 'wantaways' ... Jeez I loathe that word.

We already own most of the tools for improvement. We just need to do the work and I really hope the bulk of our off-season energies focus as much on how we can be better with what we have as who we might coax aboard for the ride.

[comrade]

This all day long.

Yeah we've got a couple of structural holes to plug but there ain't no saviour out there lurking in the weeds of other club's discards and 'wantaways' ... Jeez I loathe that word.

We already own most of the tools for improvement. We just need to do the work and I really hope the bulk of our off-season energies focus as much on how we can be better with what we have as who we might coax aboard for the ride.

I think what you're implying is the game style we employ isn't making the most of our players and makes them look worse than what they are. If so, I agree.

Coaching group needs as big of an off season as the players.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Just continuing on a theme in another thread: I don't remember, but were Butler and Dougal Howard ever discussed last year as being worthy candidates? I certainly would have been underwhelmed at the suggestion of getting them this time last year.

[Happy Days]

Butler was a dart throw but I think there was a consensus that Dougal was a good in.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think we should hold off on popping the champagne on Saints' strategy just yet.
I am not sure they haven't pushed their bigger problems down the road in order to try find some short terms solutions to give them a modest ladder boost.

They've not had any decent slurps at the draft trough since Max King. They traded out of first and second rounds last year. They don't have any first round picks this year either.
I see their list as lacking in genuine elite talent outside of Marshall, and potentially Clark, Coffield and Max King if their trajectory continues as expected
.
I think their additions have given them a lift, sure but beside improvement in King, Clark and Coffield where is the young talent that is going to lift them further than where they are?

I think in in 3 years time as Hill hits the 30's...his output won't be as pivotal, and the two years of no early draft picks, might start to bite them.

[bornadog]

I think we should hold off on popping the champagne on Saints' strategy just yet.
I am not sure they haven't pushed their bigger problems down the road in order to try find some short terms solutions to give them a modest ladder boost.

They've not had any decent slurps at the draft trough since Max King. They traded out of first and second rounds last year. They don't have any first round picks this year either.
I see their list as lacking in genuine elite talent outside of Marshall, and potentially Clark, Coffield and Max King if their trajectory continues as expected
.
I think their additions have given them a lift, sure but beside improvement in King, Clark and Coffield where is the young talent that is going to lift them further than where they are?

I think in in 3 years time as Hill hits the 30's...his output won't be as pivotal, and the two years of no early draft picks, might start to bite them.

In 3 years, Ryder and Hannebery will be gone as well.

[jazzadogs]

I think we should hold off on popping the champagne on Saints' strategy just yet.
I am not sure they haven't pushed their bigger problems down the road in order to try find some short terms solutions to give them a modest ladder boost.

They've not had any decent slurps at the draft trough since Max King. They traded out of first and second rounds last year. They don't have any first round picks this year either.
I see their list as lacking in genuine elite talent outside of Marshall, and potentially Clark, Coffield and Max King if their trajectory continues as expected
.
I think their additions have given them a lift, sure but beside improvement in King, Clark and Coffield where is the young talent that is going to lift them further than where they are?

I think in in 3 years time as Hill hits the 30's...his output won't be as pivotal, and the two years of no early draft picks, might start to bite them.

I think the King/Marshall tandem is almost a game changer in itself. Two of the most challenging positions to fill, and they have a 24 and 20 year old filling them.

Clark and Coffield definitely look the goods, and I would be surprised if they don't push into the midfield over the coming years. Gresham had a really strong 2018/2019, but I'm not sure of how big his upside is - still only 23. They would be banking on Steele being the central cog of their midfield for years to come, and they have big wraps on Bytel and Battle. Billings not being a dominant elite player is costing them, nor did McCartin's concussions.

Howard and Butler have both been strong inclusions and are only 24yo. I was keen on Howard, and the saints orchestrated a great trade for him. They will definitely have to replace Ryder's role in coming years, but I think they still have plenty to work with.

[Rocket Science]

I think we should hold off on popping the champagne on Saints' strategy just yet.
I am not sure they haven't pushed their bigger problems down the road in order to try find some short terms solutions to give them a modest ladder boost.

They've not had any decent slurps at the draft trough since Max King. They traded out of first and second rounds last year. They don't have any first round picks this year either.
I see their list as lacking in genuine elite talent outside of Marshall, and potentially Clark, Coffield and Max King if their trajectory continues as expected
.
I think their additions have given them a lift, sure but beside improvement in King, Clark and Coffield where is the young talent that is going to lift them further than where they are?

I think in in 3 years time as Hill hits the 30's...his output won't be as pivotal, and the two years of no early draft picks, might start to bite them.

Not to mention their story's bolstered by a gifted finals win that almost slipped through their fingers at the death knell.

Sure they're improved relative to a year ago but suspect the Tigers are about to provide some fresh perspective as to just how improved.

[comrade]

It's less about how well Saints have done, and more about players they brought in that would actually plug a lot of the gaps we have. And it was done on the absolute cheap.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's less about how well Saints have done, and more about players they brought in that would actually plug a lot of the gaps we have. And it was done on the absolute cheap.

I don't disagree that given the shortcomings we have, in ruck, 1x1 lock down defender, and small forward.. they totally gazumped us...
Their trade approach would've been a much better fit for us than them long term. Ryder, Howard and Butler would've fit nicely.

[comrade]

I don't disagree that given the shortcomings we have, in ruck, 1x1 lock down defender, and small forward.. they totally gazumped us...
Their trade approach would've been a much better fit for us than them long term. Ryder, Howard and Butler would've fit nicely.

Yep, we're literally desperate for all 3 roles to be filled. It's not easy winning flags and you've got to nail opportunities when they present themselves.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think we should hold off on popping the champagne on Saints' strategy just yet.
I am not sure they haven't pushed their bigger problems down the road in order to try find some short terms solutions to give them a modest ladder boost.

They've not had any decent slurps at the draft trough since Max King. They traded out of first and second rounds last year. They don't have any first round picks this year either.
I see their list as lacking in genuine elite talent outside of Marshall, and potentially Clark, Coffield and Max King if their trajectory continues as expected
.
I think their additions have given them a lift, sure but beside improvement in King, Clark and Coffield where is the young talent that is going to lift them further than where they are?

I think in in 3 years time as Hill hits the 30's...his output won't be as pivotal, and the two years of no early draft picks, might start to bite them.

I'm pretty sure they have a 1st round pick this year don't they?

[Mofra]

Just continuing on a theme in another thread: I don't remember, but were Butler and Dougal Howard ever discussed last year as being worthy candidates? I certainly would have been underwhelmed at the suggestion of getting them this time last year.
IIRC we asked the question about Howard last year, and most Woofers were keen too.
In either 2018 or 19 he led the comp for spoils. The kid knows how to defend and has really good closing speed for a KPD.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think the King/Marshall tandem is almost a game changer in itself. Two of the most challenging positions to fill, and they have a 24 and 20 year old filling them.

Clark and Coffield definitely look the goods, and I would be surprised if they don't push into the midfield over the coming years. Gresham had a really strong 2018/2019, but I'm not sure of how big his upside is - still only 23. They would be banking on Steele being the central cog of their midfield for years to come, and they have big wraps on Bytel and Battle. Billings not being a dominant elite player is costing them, nor did McCartin's concussions.

Howard and Butler have both been strong inclusions and are only 24yo. I was keen on Howard, and the saints orchestrated a great trade for him. They will definitely have to replace Ryder's role in coming years, but I think they still have plenty to work with.

Yeah I think they have as much young talent as we do. Marshall, King, Coffield, Clark, Gresham, Billings, Steele can rival Bont, Macrae, Dunkley, Naughton, Smith, English, Daniel for us. Granted they don't yet have anyone of Bonts calibre but the others are fairly even. It's their midfield that lets them down but if rumours are true that theyre going all our for Taranto, they're certainly trying to address it.

The other thing to consider is that, even if the recruits of Hill, Hannebery, Ryder, Butler etc only have a short term effect, it might be enough to convince others to join the party. How we didn't profit from our 2016 flag is beyond me.

[mjp]

The St Kilda plan seems very similar to me to the 'Brisbane Plan' and the 'Carlton Plan'.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Bringing in 5x players from other clubs over a single off-season to 'plug holes' sounds like an amazing quick fix solution but it has failed more often that it has worked. The Saints brought in 2x A-graders (Hill and Howard), one solid 'B' (Jones), one old bloke with maybe something left (Ryder) and one roll-of-the-dice on a bloke who couldn't get a game (Butler).

It has worked for right now but I am really unsure if this is a strategy we should be thinking about. We targeted two players last year (Keath and Bruce) and got both. This year it is all about JUH. We need to ensure we have the draft capital to land this kid. That needs to be the priority. I agree with everyone who says we need ruck support...well, Sweet will be 3x pre-seasons in by the time round 1 rolls around...this is the natural order of things. As for the KPD discussions, we can't be crying about Le Young not getting a game or Schache not getting a game and at the same time calling for MORE players to come in and compete for the same roles...Not if we understand that only 22 can play in any case!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'm pretty sure they have a 1st round pick this year don't they?

I thought they had moved it on. but upon checking I think you're right they do have one.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I thought they had moved it on. but upon checking I think you're right they do have one.

I think they traded their 2020 2nd rounder and didn't use their 2019 one.

Looking at their trades last year, they essentially gave up pick 6 and Blacke Acres for Butler, Howard, Ryder and Hill. That's good trading.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think they traded their 2020 2nd rounder and didn't use their 2019 one.

Looking at their trades last year, they essentially gave up pick 6 and Blacke Acres for Butler, Howard, Ryder and Hill. That's good trading.

They definitely moved their 2019 second round on, because they had their first pick, Byrnes, somewhere in the 50s.

[comrade]

The St Kilda plan seems very similar to me to the 'Brisbane Plan' and the 'Carlton Plan'.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Bringing in 5x players from other clubs over a single off-season to 'plug holes' sounds like an amazing quick fix solution but it has failed more often that it has worked. The Saints brought in 2x A-graders (Hill and Howard), one solid 'B' (Jones), one old bloke with maybe something left (Ryder) and one roll-of-the-dice on a bloke who couldn't get a game (Butler).

It has worked for right now but I am really unsure if this is a strategy we should be thinking about. We targeted two players last year (Keath and Bruce) and got both. This year it is all about JUH. We need to ensure we have the draft capital to land this kid. That needs to be the priority. I agree with everyone who says we need ruck support...well, Sweet will be 3x pre-seasons in by the time round 1 rolls around...this is the natural order of things. As for the KPD discussions, we can't be crying about Le Young not getting a game or Schache not getting a game and at the same time calling for MORE players to come in and compete for the same roles...Not if we understand that only 22 can play in any case!

We have the draft capital to get JUH, if all we do is shuffle our picks around just to ensure we don't go into a deficit next year, it will be a lost opportunity.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

All seems to have gone quiet on Ewen Macpherson?
Obviously alot of column inches devoted to us and JUH, and there's been some on Raak as well potentially being a pick, but I've heard nothing on Ewen Macpherson.

[bornadog]

The St Kilda plan seems very similar to me to the 'Brisbane Plan' and the 'Carlton Plan'.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Bringing in 5x players from other clubs over a single off-season to 'plug holes' sounds like an amazing quick fix solution but it has failed more often that it has worked. The Saints brought in 2x A-graders (Hill and Howard), one solid 'B' (Jones), one old bloke with maybe something left (Ryder) and one roll-of-the-dice on a bloke who couldn't get a game (Butler).

It has worked for right now but I am really unsure if this is a strategy we should be thinking about. We targeted two players last year (Keath and Bruce) and got both. This year it is all about JUH. We need to ensure we have the draft capital to land this kid. That needs to be the priority. I agree with everyone who says we need ruck support...well, Sweet will be 3x pre-seasons in by the time round 1 rolls around...this is the natural order of things. As for the KPD discussions, we can't be crying about Le Young not getting a game or Schache not getting a game and at the same time calling for MORE players to come in and compete for the same roles...Not if we understand that only 22 can play in any case!

Pretty sure we will trade our first round pick (12) for as many picks as possible to make up the JUH points needed.

Other than that, we most likely will target to trade for a keyback, and a small forward and then we will be done.

We also should be drafting a young developing athletic ruckman for the future.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Pretty sure we will trade our first round pick (12) for as many picks as possible to make up the JUH points needed.

Other than that, we most likely will target to trade for a keyback, and a small forward and then we will be done.

We also should be drafting a young developing athletic ruckman for the future.

Why? Are we trading English?

[bornadog]

Why? Are we trading English?

I said draft. Draft an 18 year old now for the future.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Drafting a 18 y.o skinny ruck is the absolute last thing our club needs right now.

We've got a physically underdeveloped English and an untried Sweet - we need support (IMO a first ruck if not undeniably a break glass ruck) yesterday.

[bornadog]

Drafting a 18 y.o skinny ruck is the absolute last thing our club needs right now.

We've got a physically underdeveloped English and an untried Sweet - we need support (IMO a first ruck if not undeniably a break glass ruck) yesterday.

Why? You need all sorts of players on your list including rucks - even if they are on the rookie list.

I am not saying to not get a first ruck ( I doubt we will)

You need to put development time into players. If you draft an 18 year old now, he probably doesn't start contributing till he is around 22/23 years old and by then English will be 27 and at his peak.

If Trengove doesn't get a new contract then we are left with just English and untried Sweet. Bring in a mature guy plus a developing player and suddenly we have back up.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If Trengove doesn't get a new contract then we are left with just English and untried Sweet. Bring in a mature guy plus a developing player and suddenly we have back up.

Where do you play them all? If we go in with one ruck next year, you would then have 3 to fit into the VFL program and at least 2 would have their development stifled by being played out of position. That aside and assuming we'd play 2 in that case, to have around 10% of your list invested in pure rucks is overkill - different if they're able to play multiple positions but there's not many of them around.

[DOG GOD]

The more I think about the ruck situation, the more I think we will have English, sweet, Bruce and Dunkley/Jong as our rucks next year. Bevo’s ego doesn’t care about the ruck situation, and I can’t see him changing...I’d be shocked actually.

[azabob]

The more I think about the ruck situation, the more I think we will have English, sweet, Bruce and Dunkley/Jong as our rucks next year. Bevo’s ego doesn’t care about the ruck situation, and I can’t see him changing...I’d be shocked actually.

I'm surprised it took you this long to come to that conclusion!!

[bornadog]

Where do you play them all?

Same can be said with all the HBFs/HFFs and Mids in the team.

Bevo would only recruit a player that can play multi roles, so the young guy could be FF, or backline?

I have asked many times on the board how many rucks do we need as GVGjr keeps saying we don't have enough.

So you are saying three rucks is enough on a list?

[DOG GOD]

I'm surprised it took you this long to come to that conclusion!!
And why’s that ?

[GVGjr]

Pretty sure we will trade our first round pick (12) for as many picks as possible to make up the JUH points needed.

Other than that, we most likely will target to trade for a keyback, and a small forward and then we will be done.

We also should be drafting a young developing athletic ruckman for the future.

Total draft value index points more so than the numbers of picks but I get your point

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Same can be said with all the HBFs/HFFs and Mids in the team.

Bevo would only recruit a player that can play multi roles, so the young guy could be FF, or backline?

I have asked many times on the board how many rucks do we need as GVGjr keeps saying we don't have enough.

So you are saying three rucks is enough on a list?

I agree which is why I have lamented how many flankers we continue to draft, as recently as Butler in 2019. How many is enough!? Having to play half backs at half forward in a final is evidence to suggest we've overdone it.

3 pure rucks is absolutely enough. By pure, I'm talking about English/Sweet types who play 90% of their footy in the ruck. I'm not counting the likes of Trengove/Bruce who can pinch hit.

Ideally 3 rucks (2 ready to go, 1 developer) and 1-2 capable of pinch hitting is fine.

[jeemak]

Who would be on high coin for us Jeemak?

Bont
JJ
Bruce
Macrae?

And how many are currently performing up to their price tag? JJ and Bruce certainly aren’t.

Naughton and English will certainly command it soon. As will Bailey Smith. The saints will need to factor future growth of their young stars too. Billings will want more. Steele only signed for two years and after his AA selection he’ll want a juicy contract. Then you’ve got Coffield and Clark who’ll attract decent coin. If Butler keeps this seasons form up, he’ll get a decent pay rise as would Marshall and Gresham. They’re still throwing money around so they’ll need to be careful with an eye to retaining their current young guns. The challenge for the saints will be maintaining the rage. The newness will be gone next season and the expectations much higher. Oppositions will also be familiar with them.

Jazzadogs provided a pretty good answer. Our big earners would be the guys you mentioned, with Dunks, Daniel, Hunter, Wood and Crozier within the next bracket, or about to be in the next bracket.

Agree with what you've said about the Saints, they're going to be feeling the pinch pretty quickly.

[Danjul]

Same can be said with all the HBFs/HFFs and Mids in the team.

Bevo would only recruit a player that can play multi roles, so the young guy could be FF, or backline?

I have asked many times on the board how many rucks do we need as GVGjr keeps saying we don't have enough.

So you are saying three rucks is enough on a list?

I don’t understand why we must have everyone playing multiple roles.

It has held us down for years. The players who got the premiership generally did one thing well.

[ledge]

I don’t understand why we must have everyone playing multiple roles.

It has held us down for years. The players who got the premiership generally did one thing well.

Money ball !

[SonofScray]

Robbie Tarrant would be a good get if he wants out of Norf.

[KT31]

Not sure how much truth is in it, but twice today I've been asked about rumour floating around Dunks is unhappy with the ruck role and wants out if it is going to continue.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Not sure how much truth is in it, but twice today I've been asked about rumour floating around Dunks is unhappy with the ruck role and wants out if it is going to continue.

That sounds like something made up on big footy.

October - Trade silly season
Dunkley - good player.
Bulldogs - bad ruck situation which sees Dunks the midfielder taking ruck contests
Big Footy - Dunks wants out because he has to do ruck work

In all honesty I wouldn't blame Dunks for being pi**ed at having to compete in the ruck. But I'm sure he would have voiced his displeasure if he was indeed annoyed. And if Bevo continued to force him to do it then we've got some big problems down there.

[Grantysghost]

That sounds like something made up on big footy.

October - Trade silly season
Dunkley - good player.
Bulldogs - bad ruck situation which sees Dunks the midfielder taking ruck contests
Big Footy - Dunks wants out because he has to do ruck work

In all honesty I wouldn't blame Dunks for being pi**ed at having to compete in the ruck. But I'm sure he would have voiced his displeasure if he was indeed annoyed. And if Bevo continued to force him to do it then we've got some big problems down there.

Dunks is unanimously chosen as the coaches pet by all the other players.

[EasternWest]

Dunks is unanimously chosen as the coaches pet by all the other players.

Roarke Smith doesn't like this b

[GVGjr]

Not sure how much truth is in it, but twice today I've been asked about rumour floating around Dunks is unhappy with the ruck role and wants out if it is going to continue.

Who knows if we will ever consider trading Dunks but I'd be confident in saying that the rumour is well off the mark

[jeemak]

You'd have to be a complete moron to even suggest trading Dunkley...….

[1eyedog]

You'd have to be a complete moron to even suggest trading Dunkley...….

I like what you did there.

FWIW Dunks really is Bevo's darling and Bont's best mate there is no way he is going anywhere.

[azabob]

You'd have to be a complete moron to even suggest trading Dunkley...….

Maybe start a thread to gauge how people will react?

[jeemak]

Maybe start a thread to gauge how people will react?

It's a bit early in the day for that...….or late in the day.

[azabob]

So apparently Andy Maher raised Hunters name as a possible trade.

For mine Hunter is our 2nd most important midfielder behind Bontempelli.

[jeemak]

So apparently Andy Maher raised Hunters name as a possible trade.

For mine Hunter is our 2nd most important midfielder behind Bontempelli.

Oh yeah...…..because why?

Because we need less two way running in our midfield? Because we're flushed with elite wingers? Because things didn't go perfectly after he shat the bed by getting hammered and smashing up a bunch of cars? Because he finished clearly top ten in our best and fairest after playing half a season?

[azabob]

DOOR REMAINS OPEN FOR GUN DOG TO DEPART

Western Bulldogs star Lachie Hunter has yet again been linked with a trade away from the Whitten Oval.

In August, veteran AFL journalist Caroline Wilson reported Hunter’s relationship with the Bulldogs had broken down, leading to talk of a possible move at the end of the season.

However, despite Luke Beveridge being taken back by the ‘made up’ speculation at a press conference, SEN’s Andy Maher believes the door remained ajar.

“He (Hunter) is contracted until 2024 but I’m told that it may not be out of the question,” he said on SEN’s Bob and Andy.

https://coupler.foxsports.com.au/api/v1/article/amp/afl/afl-2020-afl-trades-trade-whispers-news-rumours-reports-lachie-hunter-jarrod-brander-zac-langdon-wil-powell-free-agency/news-story/ebdfd36ad35fcdfb76aae59be2b5b6df?__twitter_impression=true

[azabob]

Oh yeah...…..because why?

Because we need less two way running in our midfield? Because we're flushed with elite wingers? Because things didn't go perfectly after he shat the bed by getting hammered and smashing up a bunch of cars? Because he finished clearly top ten in our best and fairest after playing half a season?

It seriously is a rubbish article.

[Grantysghost]

So apparently Andy Maher raised Hunters name as a possible trade.

For mine Hunter is our 2nd most important midfielder behind Bontempelli.

Hmm, the only reason I worry about that is he works with Bob.

If it’s player driven what can we do ? Hopefully talk him around, if there’s any substance.

[DOG GOD]

I stopped reading after the name Caroline Wilson .

[bornadog]

It seriously is a rubbish article.

I hate journos writing bs articles just to get a reaction

[azabob]

I hate journos writing bs articles just to get a reaction

Yep. Like all trade talk a lot of it is clutching at straws. Yet we all fall into it, hook line and sinker.

[Rocket Science]

Ahhh that golden period between the final round of home & away and trade week when journos can cheekily plop any old turd they please into the bowl safe in the knowledge it'll make the requisite splash.

We need a thread of mooted moves we can revisit later for amusement purposes.

[Mitcha]

Finals always throw up some interesting selection dilemmas and one caught my eye. Richmond dropped Jake Aarts for last night game and for me would suit us to fill our glaring small pressure forward weakness. Played 14 games and impressed me as I thought he was nothing more than your average VFL level player. Knows where the goals are and comes in a bit older than your average TAC graduate. Has obviously got lost amongst Richmonds glut of his type (Rioli, Pickett, Higgins, Castagna, Baker and Bolton) similar to Butler last year and may be a bit pissed off and possibly gettable. Thoughts?

[Grantysghost]

Finals always throw up some interesting selection dilemmas and one caught my eye. Richmond dropped Jake Aarts for last night game and for me would suit us to fill our glaring small pressure forward weakness. Played 14 games and impressed me as I thought he was nothing more than your average VFL level player. Knows where the goals are and comes in a bit older than your average TAC graduate. Has obviously got lost amongst Richmonds glut of his type (Rioli, Pickett, Higgins, Castagna, Baker and Bolton) similar to Butler last year and may be a bit pissed off and possibly gettable. Thoughts?

I don't mind Aarts but I think there's more upside to someone like Higgins. Think there's a relationship with Bailey Smith there somewhere too. Considering his recent health problems if he wanted to go I dare say the Tigers would make it happen pretty easily.

Edit : Excerpt from article re Bailey and Higgins friendship.

BONDING WITH BILLY AND ‘HIGGO’

It’s this footy camaraderie that has kept Smith more motivated about the game than anything else — a camaraderie he first felt in Year 7 when he was running water for the Xavier College first XVIII team. At the time, Billy Gowers — who was the Western Bulldogs’ leading goalkicker in 2018 — was the team’s pin-up boy — and Smith’s hero.

“He learnt my name one of those days and from then on he’d always say hi to me. That was probably the most memorable moment, honestly, of my young football journey,” Smith said.

One day in the same year, Smith came across another footy-mad kid after an East Malvern Knights training session.

“Do you want to have a kick?” Jack ‘Snags’ Higgins — Richmond’s 2018 cult hero — asked Smith at the time.

Jack Higgins gave Tigers fans lots of joy in 2018.

And a friendship was born. Albeit, their definition of friendship — covering anywhere from 10 to 13km in three or four training sessions a week during summer at Gosch’s Paddock — is very different to how others would define it. But Smith wouldn’t change a thing, as it helped develop an extraordinary work ethic.

“It was draining and so hard, but I’m so thankful for him taking me under his wing … I just wanted to follow him,” Smith said,

“We created such a good bond because we have such similar interests. We both want to get the best out of our footy and we’re willing to do almost anything for it.”

And Smith’s not joking when he says “almost anything”.

[ledge]

I don't mind Aarts but I think there's more upside to someone like Higgins. Think there's a relationship with Bailey Smith there somewhere too. Considering his recent health problems if he wanted to go I dare say the Tigers would make it happen pretty easily.

Edit : Excerpt from article re Bailey and Higgins friendship.

BONDING WITH BILLY AND ‘HIGGO’

It’s this footy camaraderie that has kept Smith more motivated about the game than anything else — a camaraderie he first felt in Year 7 when he was running water for the Xavier College first XVIII team. At the time, Billy Gowers — who was the Western Bulldogs’ leading goalkicker in 2018 — was the team’s pin-up boy — and Smith’s hero.

“He learnt my name one of those days and from then on he’d always say hi to me. That was probably the most memorable moment, honestly, of my young football journey,” Smith said.

One day in the same year, Smith came across another footy-mad kid after an East Malvern Knights training session.

“Do you want to have a kick?” Jack ‘Snags’ Higgins — Richmond’s 2018 cult hero — asked Smith at the time.

Jack Higgins gave Tigers fans lots of joy in 2018.

And a friendship was born. Albeit, their definition of friendship — covering anywhere from 10 to 13km in three or four training sessions a week during summer at Gosch’s Paddock — is very different to how others would define it. But Smith wouldn’t change a thing, as it helped develop an extraordinary work ethic.

“It was draining and so hard, but I’m so thankful for him taking me under his wing … I just wanted to follow him,” Smith said,

“We created such a good bond because we have such similar interests. We both want to get the best out of our footy and we’re willing to do almost anything for it.”

And Smith’s not joking when he says “almost anything”.

As long as Smith doesn’t want to go to the tigers .. works both ways.

I actually like Aarts he goes hard , a little like Clay Smith , I see Mihocek a bit the same , I would take either of them.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I hope the talk of us cooling on Lonie means we’ve got someone better lined up.

[GVGjr]

Finals always throw up some interesting selection dilemmas and one caught my eye. Richmond dropped Jake Aarts for last night game and for me would suit us to fill our glaring small pressure forward weakness. Played 14 games and impressed me as I thought he was nothing more than your average VFL level player. Knows where the goals are and comes in a bit older than your average TAC graduate. Has obviously got lost amongst Richmonds glut of his type (Rioli, Pickett, Higgins, Castagna, Baker and Bolton) similar to Butler last year and may be a bit pissed off and possibly gettable. Thoughts?

Its a good suggestion and he would be a player who could be acquired with a latish pick

[josie]

Ahhh that golden period between the final round of home & away and trade week when journos can cheekily plop any old turd they please into the bowl safe in the knowledge it'll make the requisite splash.

We need a thread of mooted moves we can revisit later for amusement purposes.

Well said RS. Some good turds of phrase.

[Mitcha]

Obviously one of the glaring weaknesses on our list is of players with genuine forward craft hence the apparent interest in Lonie.
This is evidenced by the fact that Naughton is a key defender learning to play KPF and Wallis who has reinvented himself from an accumulating mid to our go to target inside fifty. The thing that I found amazing about this season was that players currently on our list with forward smarts (Dickson-Retiring, Dale-Out of favour and future uncertain, Lloyd-Out of favour and future uncertain and Greene-Probably gone) were all unselected at the pointy end of the season. if we don't find anything in this years trade period we are relying on Weightman to come on very quickly as there are also doubts on whether Cavarra stays or not.

[Rocket Science]

I hope the talk of us cooling on Lonie means we’ve got someone better lined up.

Me too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TCDtBncCXU&ab_channel=AFL

[Vred]

I hope the talk of us cooling on Lonie means we’ve got someone better lined up.

I'd take De Goey lol

[Happy Days]

I'd take De Goey lol

Yuck.

I’ve heard that we’ve got another small forward to agree to come over, only he’s not small or a forward and he’s Todd Goldstein.

[Vred]

Yuck.

I’ve heard that we’ve got another small forward to agree to come over, only he’s not small or a forward and he’s Todd Goldstein.


Whilst I'd give a left testicle to have Todd on the list for two years (instantly fixes a ruck / defender problem) I have a feeling we won't do it.

De Goey, for all his off-field questionable activity, is a gun on the field and would be great X factor in our forward line, something we lack.

[Happy Days]

Whilst I'd give a left testicle to have Todd on the list for two years (instantly fixes a ruck / defender problem) I have a feeling we won't do it.

De Goey, for all his off-field questionable activity, is a gun on the field and would be great X factor in our forward line, something we lack.

De Goey literally has sexual assault charges pending. Why on earth would we want him at our club.

[bornadog]

De Goey literally has sexual assault charges pending. Why on earth would we want him at our club.

Even if he didn't he is not going anywhere

[Twodogs]

Oh yeah...…..because why?

Because we need less two way running in our midfield? Because we're flushed with elite wingers? Because things didn't go perfectly after he shat the bed by getting hammered and smashing up a bunch of cars? Because he finished clearly top ten in our best and fairest after playing half a season?

After the way he made a point of slapping his jumper when he kicked a goal the week they last floated this rumour I'm confident that he's not going anywhere.

[GVGjr]

After the way he made a point of slapping his jumper when he kicked a goal the week they last floated this rumour I'm confident that he's not going anywhere.

Same here, BAD mentioned Hunter as being so important to us the other day and the evidence is there to suggest he is worth the money and the long term deal we offered him. The other thing is he is hugely popular with the playing group
Despite being at the club for 8 years already his best football might still be in front of him

[jazzadogs]

Same here, BAD mentioned Hunter as being so important to us the other day and the evidence is there to suggest he is worth the money and the long term deal we offered him. The other thing is he is hugely popular with the playing group
Despite being at the club for 8 years already his best football might still be in front of him

There's a big garbage rumour floating around which is based ENTIRELY on Jack Higgins' girlfriend posting a video to Instagram that the bulldogs players were partying too loudly in Bailey Smith's room the night after our last game. There is a lot of garbage attached to it (highlight being that Caleb Daniel was dressed up like evil knievel and got thrown off the balcony into the pool, I mean CMON!!) but it ends with a statement that Bailey Smith and Lachie Hunter have been told to pack their bags.

Truly laughable. I have no doubt that there was a loud party, it was probably in Baz's room and I'm sure that some/many players took drugs. But we're not getting rid of two of our top 5 players because of it.

[azabob]

Same here, BAD mentioned Hunter as being so important to us the other day and the evidence is there to suggest he is worth the money and the long term deal we offered him. The other thing is he is hugely popular with the playing group
Despite being at the club for 8 years already his best football might still be in front of him

I got Hunter wrong.

At the time I questioned the length of deal and wondered how much he'd be on a year.

I said earlier in this thread Hunter is our second most important midfielder and likely in our top 5 most important players.

[GVGjr]

There's a big garbage rumour floating around which is based ENTIRELY on Jack Higgins' girlfriend posting a video to Instagram that the bulldogs players were partying too loudly in Bailey Smith's room the night after our last game. There is a lot of garbage attached to it (highlight being that Caleb Daniel was dressed up like evil knievel and got thrown off the balcony into the pool, I mean CMON!!) but it ends with a statement that Bailey Smith and Lachie Hunter have been told to pack their bags.

Truly laughable. I have no doubt that there was a loud party, it was probably in Baz's room and I'm sure that some/many players took drugs. But we're not getting rid of two of our top 5 players because of it.

Things getting loud sounds plausible but lets face it rumours are just that especially this time of the year

[azabob]

Things getting loud sounds plausible but lets face it rumours are just that especially this time of the year

We also need to remember that this was "their" mad Monday and likely wouldn't see each other again until 2021.

[GVGjr]

I got Hunter wrong.

At the time I questioned the length of deal and wondered how much he'd be on a year.

I said earlier in this thread Hunter is our second most important midfielder and likely in our top 5 most important players.

I recall you mentioning that, it's a big call but it might very well be correct
For Hunter to play like he did in what was a tremendously challenging season for him shows just how resilient and talented he is

[azabob]

I think our list is in a bit worse shape than I initially thought.

A lot of the below has been said before, but as the finals continue on, I am realising more and more how far away we are.

I say this because I went to contribute to the Round 1 team for 2021 thread and had a lot of gaps in my team and I noticed a few things.

1) Some posters are putting Lewis Young as a key back
2) Some posters are putting Josh Schache as a key forward
3) Some posters put both in

Now, I know we are an optimistic bunch here (most times) but I don't see how either of these players suddenly become best 22.

Our holes are key defender, key forward, second ruck support, small pressure forward. The midfield is ok and maybe could do with a couple more dashes of prick in our set up. Like the players which get called out for faux tough man such as Hanaberry and Z.Jones are two that come to mind (not these players specifically but players who have their attitude).

Forward of the Ball

If by some fluke Josh Bruce can actually contribute as our second key forward that position isn't too much of an issue. He is proven we just need him to be motivated. Longer term fingers crossed Ugle-Hagan can run shotgun with Naughton.
Garcia is getting wraps on here and by the club with the way he attacked his rehab, as GVGjr and others alluded to could he be the small pressure forward?

I would also pull the trigger and play Daniel on the wing / high half forward role to help with the delivery and decision making delivery into our forward 50.

Behind the Ball

Alex Keith was a success but did we recruit him as an intercept defender or a lockdown defender? I'd like to see him as an intercept defender - so we need an upgrade on Gardner / Cordy. Our defense looked a whole heap better against the saints when Cordy went off.

If we cannot secure a ready made key defender over the off season we need to have either Lewis Young take significant steps forward or prepare for Tim English to spend a lot of time dropping into the back 50 to help out -which frankly this option sucks.

On ball

We really need more than one option other than English in the center square and stoppages around the ground. Our midfield has the talent, we maybe need a touch more defensive running - but gee I'd love to see us back their ability to be proactive. On the flip side if we become too proactive at centre bounces / stoppages, we could get burnt a lot the other way if we don't win the ball.

I actually keep flip flopping on what we need - which is not great. I don't have the answers on how we will fix the above problems, but it appears we will be 8th to 10th for a couple of more years yet.

I certainly hope Beveridge, Power and Co understand our list and understand the holes in it. Without knowing this first, it is almost impossible to climb up the ladder and become a regular top four team.

[Mitcha]

Could someone like Ratagolea be someone to look at. Haven't seen a lot of him but certainly looks capable of clunking them when forward and has spent some time rucking. Multi positional type who may be able to alternate with English. And another not currently playing at the pointy end of the season.

[Happy Days]

There's a big garbage rumour floating around which is based ENTIRELY on Jack Higgins' girlfriend posting a video to Instagram that the bulldogs players were partying too loudly in Bailey Smith's room the night after our last game. There is a lot of garbage attached to it (highlight being that Caleb Daniel was dressed up like evil knievel and got thrown off the balcony into the pool, I mean CMON!!) but it ends with a statement that Bailey Smith and Lachie Hunter have been told to pack their bags.

Truly laughable. I have no doubt that there was a loud party, it was probably in Baz's room and I'm sure that some/many players took drugs. But we're not getting rid of two of our top 5 players because of it.

The real question is why did Higgins' girlfriend snitch. I assume she's like 21, how much of a loser do you have to be to make a noise complaint at that age.

[GVGjr]

Could someone like Ratagolea be someone to look at. Haven't seen a lot of him but certainly looks capable of clunking them when forward and has spent some time rucking. Multi positional type who may be able to alternate with English. And another not currently playing at the pointy end of the season.

I know the Doctor was big on getting him to the kennel when he was drafted and he would be a good fit for us

[comrade]

I like the idea of Esava. Physical, can play multiple positions. He isn’t a world beater but would definitely help us structurally.

[bornadog]

Could someone like Ratagolea be someone to look at. Haven't seen a lot of him but certainly looks capable of clunking them when forward and has spent some time rucking. Multi positional type who may be able to alternate with English. And another not currently playing at the pointy end of the season.

I think it is a good suggestion, maybe worth looking at.

[Danjul]

I think our list is in a bit worse shape than I initially thought.

1) Some posters are putting Lewis Young as a key back
2) Some posters are putting Josh Schache as a key forward
3) Some posters put both in
Now, I know we are an optimistic bunch here (most times) but I don't see how either of these players suddenly become best 22.

If by some fluke Josh Bruce can actually contribute as our second key forward that position isn't too much of an issue. He is proven we just need him to be motivated.

I enjoyed your analysis.
But how does “if Bruce can contribute “ make him an asset?
He contributed nothing this year. One good game and a couple of “reasonable”.
Personally I think his rampage during the recent final cost us the game.

I don’t think Schache and Young will ever become best 22. They already are.
We can’t get much from their games this season but they showed a bit in 2019.

In the game against Hawthorn Schache with 15 possessions, 4 goals and some give aways was a highlight. With Gowers 3 goals they gave an exciting win. Against Port his 3 goals in terrible conditions propelled us towards the finals. But the team was going well people say. Well he was top goal scorer with 3 against Collingwood when we lost. If you look at our 5 highest scoring games last year Schache was in 4 times. I don’t understand why he is denigrated and Bruce is treated as our saviour. Whenever we needed a little from Bruce we got nothing. But hope will make him a selection certainty.

[azabob]

I enjoyed your analysis.
But how does “if Bruce can contribute “ make him an asset?
He contributed nothing this year. One good game and a couple of “reasonable”.
Personally I think his rampage during the recent final cost us the game.

I don’t think Schache and Young will ever become best 22. They already are.
We can’t get much from their games this season but they showed a bit in 2019.

In the game against Hawthorn Schache with 15 possessions, 4 goals and some give aways was a highlight. With Gowers 3 goals they gave an exciting win. Against Port his 3 goals in terrible conditions propelled us towards the finals. But the team was going well people say. Well he was top goal scorer with 3 against Collingwood when we lost. If you look at our 5 highest scoring games last year Schache was in 4 times. I don’t understand why he is denigrated and Bruce is treated as our saviour. Whenever we needed a little from Bruce we got nothing. But hope will make him a selection certainty.

My Bruce comment was very much tongue in cheek. You are correct he is not an asset at all.

Schache has a lot of natural talent and maybe he is judged more harshly than Bruce because of this talent. As the old saying goes you can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't bring the effort you won't succeed.

Hopefully all three of Naughton, Bruce and Schache demand a starting position in our forward 50 in 2021 - it certainly would make our on field endeavors a lot easier.

[Danjul]

My Bruce comment was very much tongue in cheek. You are correct he is not an asset at all.

Schache has a lot of natural talent and maybe he is judged more harshly than Bruce because of this talent. As the old saying goes you can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't bring the effort you won't succeed.

Hopefully all three of Naughton, Bruce and Schache demand a starting position in our forward 50 in 2021 - it certainly would make our on field endeavors a lot easier.
True

[ledge]

The real question is why did Higgins' girlfriend snitch. I assume she's like 21, how much of a loser do you have to be to make a noise complaint at that age.

Even included Bailey and alcohol and he has never touched it in his life.
Higgins and Bailey are very close so it’s just Rubbish.

[azabob]

There's a big garbage rumour floating around which is based ENTIRELY on Jack Higgins' girlfriend posting a video to Instagram that the bulldogs players were partying too loudly in Bailey Smith's room the night after our last game. There is a lot of garbage attached to it (highlight being that Caleb Daniel was dressed up like evil knievel and got thrown off the balcony into the pool, I mean CMON!!) but it ends with a statement that Bailey Smith and Lachie Hunter have been told to pack their bags.

Truly laughable. I have no doubt that there was a loud party, it was probably in Baz's room and I'm sure that some/many players took drugs. But we're not getting rid of two of our top 5 players because of it.

Of course they are packing their bags. They are leaving the hub.... its not like they will just leave their stuff there....

[The Adelaide Connection]

The real question is why did Higgins' girlfriend snitch. I assume she's like 21, how much of a loser do you have to be to make a noise complaint at that age.

The Instagram video of her commentary about it has been posted to the Scandal/rumour thread on BF. It is certainly something. Woe is me, excuse for content kind of stuff.

It got me thinking, if the Smurf village was adjusted to reflect society how many Vanity Smurfs would they now need?

[Happy Days]

The Instagram video of her commentary about it has been posted to the Scandal/rumour thread on BF. It is certainly something. Woe is me, excuse for content kind of stuff.

It got me thinking, if the Smurf village was adjusted to reflect society how many Vanity Smurfs would they now need?

Yeah I watched the video. You can tell she really thought she got a good burn off with "Western Suburbs nightclub".

[EasternWest]

The Instagram video of her commentary about it has been posted to the Scandal/rumour thread on BF. It is certainly something. Woe is me, excuse for content kind of stuff.

It got me thinking, if the Smurf village was adjusted to reflect society how many Vanity Smurfs would they now need?

Awesome.

[bornadog]

The Instagram video of her commentary about it has been posted to the Scandal/rumour thread on BF. It is certainly something. Woe is me, excuse for content kind of stuff.

It got me thinking, if the Smurf village was adjusted to reflect society how many Vanity Smurfs would they now need?

When was this all supposed to take place? Last I heard the players had two days to get out.

[ledge]

When was this all supposed to take place? Last I heard the players had two days to get out.

They had the B&F the night after and from what Easton Wood said he was home on the Wednesday.
So I guess the night of losing the game.
But they wouldn’t have known they were going to lost and from what I have read the players were gutted so not sure they would have partied and with most having family up there would be hard to believe they did anything of major proportions , be dying to get home I would have thought.

[The Doctor]

Why am I reading about Jack Higgins girlfriend in the List Management thread? Are we interested? Can she ruck?

[SquirrelGrip]

Why am I reading about Jack Higgins girlfriend in the List Management thread? Are we interested? Can she ruck?

Another half back flanker I believe...

[Happy Days]

Why am I reading about Jack Higgins girlfriend in the List Management thread? Are we interested? Can she ruck?

Tagger. A highly annoying one too.

[ledge]

Tagger. A highly annoying one too.

She can also get into the oppositions ear and upset their game.

[bornadog]

Why am I reading about Jack Higgins girlfriend in the List Management thread? Are we interested? Can she ruck?

Maybe she doesn't want Jack to be traded to us.

[GVGjr]

Please no more discussion on this thread about non list management subjects

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Any way we can pry Darcy Moore loose by taking advantage of the Pies' salary cap squeeze?

[Go_Dogs]

Without knowing what happens with list sizes, I’m thinking:

Gone - combination of retired, traded and delisted

Dickson
Trengove
Suckling
Cavarra
Gowers
Greene
Hayes
Lipinski
Lloyd
Lynch
Porter
One of Le Young / Schache

Needs

Small forward
Medium forward
Second ruck/tall utility
Pace, pace and pace

We need to be ruthless this year and back some of our young guys like Laith, West etc in to make a difference to the side that lost in the first week of the finals.

Would be great to complement them with a couple of established players and retreads who can impact immediately. 4/5 changes to our best 22 can make a big difference for us.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Its interesting that we still haven't officially announced ANY list changes outside of Dickson's retirement.
Saints finished up a week later than us and they've already announced 5 delistings.

[The Underdog]

Its interesting that we still haven't officially announced ANY list changes outside of Dickson's retirement.
Saints finished up a week later than us and they've already announced 5 delistings.

We’ve usually waited until close to trade period. Not sure how the late finish will effect that.

[GVGjr]

Its interesting that we still haven't officially announced ANY list changes outside of Dickson's retirement.
Saints finished up a week later than us and they've already announced 5 delistings.

Perhaps we are waiting until we get an indication on the list size or could it be we are about to announce some names to start looking elsewhere. There might also have been some clubs inquiring about some of our boys

Still 5 names shouldn't be hard to announce now and a few more later

[1eyedog]

Any way we can pry Darcy Moore loose by taking advantage of the Pies' salary cap squeeze?

It would have to be a Tom Boyd offer.

[Twodogs]

As a matter of interest how many players recruited via F/S have left to go to another club? I can think of Josh Kennedy, David Bourke and Tim Callan. I can't think of a required player that a club wanted to keep.

Wouldn't mind a ping at Darcy Moore though I can't see how we'd have the chips to get him given we are spending most of ours on Ugle-Hagan this year.

[Happy Days]

As a matter of interest how many players recruited via F/S have left to go to another club? I can think of Josh Kennedy, David Bourke and Tim Callan. I can't think of a required player that a club wanted to keep.

Wouldn't mind a ping at Darcy Moore though I can't see how we'd have the chips to get him given we are spending most of ours on Ugle-Hagan this year.

Moore’s re-signed

Daniher just left Essendon so there’s another one.

[Twodogs]

Moore’s re-signed

Daniher just left Essendon so there’s another one.

Oh yeah Daniher of course.

[azabob]

As a matter of interest how many players recruited via F/S have left to go to another club? I can think of Josh Kennedy, David Bourke and Tim Callan. I can't think of a required player that a club wanted to keep.

Wouldn't mind a ping at Darcy Moore though I can't see how we'd have the chips to get him given we are spending most of ours on Ugle-Hagan this year.

Gary Ablett Jnr.

[azabob]

As a matter of interest how many players recruited via F/S have left to go to another club? I can think of Josh Kennedy, David Bourke and Tim Callan. I can't think of a required player that a club wanted to keep.

Wouldn't mind a ping at Darcy Moore though I can't see how we'd have the chips to get him given we are spending most of ours on Ugle-Hagan this year.

Nathan Ablett

[Twodogs]

Heath Shaw

Jarrod Malloy

Nick Davis

Travis Cloke

A few involved Collingwood.


Ben Cousins

Sean Dempster

[Twodogs]

One I shouldn't have forgotten. Gareth John was a family friend who went F/S to the Swans and ended up at North after a horrific injury to his neck.

[Twodogs]

Gary Ablett Jnr.

Fair to say that Geelong would have been keen to hang on to him.

[soupman]

Heath Shaw



Rhys Shaw as well.

[Doc26]

Heath Shaw

Jarrod Malloy

Nick Davis

Travis Cloke

A few involved Collingwood.


Ben Cousins

Sean Dempster

Liam Picken had a pre season with Collingwood so as close to without being drafted by them.

[SquirrelGrip]

As a matter of interest how many players recruited via F/S have left to go to another club? I can think of Josh Kennedy, David Bourke and Tim Callan. I can't think of a required player that a club wanted to keep.

Tom Mitchell

[jeemak]

I think it seems more father son players leave than stay.

[Twodogs]

I think it seems more father son players leave than stay.

From the list I found on Wiki , Trent Burgoyne became the 98th F/S selection since 1987 when they bought the 3rd round draft pick selection in. So that's 11/98 or roughly 12%?

[Twodogs]

Tom Mitchell

Brett Peake

Jarryd Waite

[jeemak]

From the list I found on Wiki , Trent Burgoyne became the 98th F/S selection since 1987 when they bought the 3rd round draft pick selection in. So that's 11/98 or roughly 12%?

Exactly.

[Twodogs]

Exactly.

Quite a lot more than I thought.

0 % of ours have left though which is really the only stat that matters to me.
Exactly.

Quite a lot more than I thought.

0 % of ours have left though which is really the only stat that matters to me. We've had 8 selected. Luke Darcy, David Round, Tom Liberatore, Mitch Wallis, Ayce and Zaine Cordy, Rhylee West and Lachie Hunter.

[jeemak]

Quite a lot more than I thought.

0 % of ours have left though which is really the only stat that matters to me.

I wonder what the number is for F/S players who have played more than 50 games.

[Twodogs]

I wonder what the number is for F/S players who have played more than 50 games.

38 have played 50+, 22 100+, 14 200+, 2 300 and 1 400

You'd think that Tom, Mitch and Lachie will all play 200+ too.

[bornadog]

Billy Gowers never made it to Hawks but there is still time :D

[Rocket Science]

Billy Gowers never made it to Hawks

Never say never!

[bornadog]

Never say never!

I did an edit - but there is still time

[azabob]

I did an edit - but there is still time

damn it, now I want to know the edit!

[bornadog]

damn it, now I want to know the edit!

Read post 681 and then 680 :D

[AshMac]

North have done a pretty good job at that with Ben Brown.

Not even remotely close to the way we managed the lead up to the talia or stringer trades.

[jeemak]

Not even remotely close to the way we managed the lead up to the talia or stringer trades.

The industry knew Jake was completely cooked with us and it had nothing to do with what Bevo said. If we all knew how much of a POS he was then you can be sure the entire competition did before we got wind of it.

Talia on the other hand was a burn well spent. He was like Morgan Freeman in Unforgiven......killed and displayed with a sign on him, and not even anyone as ignorant as Clint Eastwood or the protagonist he was portraying was going to stick up for him.

[soupman]

Alright i have decided. One Nankervis please.

[bornadog]

Alright i have decided. One Nankervis please.

No thanks

[GVGjr]

No thanks

It's hard to argue with that logic :)

[comrade]

To be fair, Bevo would probably make Nank fizzle away in the VFL because he lacks ‘versatility’ and can only play one position.

[azabob]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

[Happy Days]

Nank was good as hell last night but that is his best game ever by heaps. I still have a ton of doubts about his ability.

Plus do we really think that we can play all of English, Nank and Goldstein?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

Yep. Especially when all rumours surrounding the upcoming trade period have us linked to the likes of Lonie and Hannan.

I dunno. I just feel we have so many areas that need a shake up. And that's not just the playing group. Thank god we have JUH coming otherwise there wouldn't be much to look forward to. I know things can turn around suddenly in this industry but we've had 4 years of subpar performances where the same problems have repeated themselves and we haven't made many changes to address them. Watching last nights game also made me feel worse about our loss to the saints. We would have been blown away by either port or the tiges. Their pace, intensity, pressure and system absolutely blows ours away.

[CarnTheScray]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.
Welcome to my world. Knew this was going to happen after we missed finals in 2017.

[Grantysghost]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

Could that be said about most other teams ? Tigers are an exception, but no one really has had sustained success for a while.
If we were to compare with one of the juggernauts for example, the Eagles. They won in 2018, maybe lucky with the Tigers choking, but they won and they haven't reached any great heights since.
I share the pain but maybe we are the rule and not the exception. I don't believe we are as far away as many believe, but certainly accept that to continue to evolve we need to be constantly innovating.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Could that be said about most other teams ? Tigers are an exception, but no one really has had sustained success for a while.
If we were to compare with one of the juggernauts for example, the Eagles. They won in 2018, maybe lucky with the Tigers choking, but they won and they haven't reached any great heights since.
I share the pain but maybe we are the rule and not the exception. I don't believe we are as far away as many believe, but certainly accept that to continue to evolve we need to be constantly innovating.

Let's say the tigers win the flag this year. If you look at the last 20 flags:

Hawthorn - 4
Tigers - 3
Geelong - 3
Brisbane - 3
West Coast - 2
Sydney - 2
Collingwood - 1
Bulldogs - 1
Port - 1

So 9 teams have shared in the past 20 flags. That will remain the case no matter who wins it this year. Collingwood, bulldogs and port are the only 3 of those 9 with just the 1 flag. 2 of those, Port and Collingwood, contended for years either side of their respective flags. Granted the two flags each of sydney and west coast were different teams, but 4 of the 9 teams capitalised on their successful eras.

So I think we have certainly underachieved and are an exception to the rule moreso because we just haven't contended at all either side of our flag year. Some of that is understandable because our flag was exceptional. We cam from nowhere, had a young list and lost significant personnel very soon after the flag. But the latter is largely our fault and there have been successfull "young" premiers before who have continued their success.

We still have time to continue the success but I think we need significant improvement. It's a shame really. Who in the entire footy world didn't think 2016 was the start of a dynasty? Amazing young talent, great innovative coach and a huge amount of bandwagon support and marketing attention. We dropped the ball big time but it's history now and we need to focus on new momentum.

[Grantysghost]

Let's say the tigers win the flag this year. If you look at the last 20 flags:

Hawthorn - 4
Tigers - 3
Geelong - 3
Brisbane - 3
West Coast - 2
Sydney - 2
Collingwood - 1
Bulldogs - 1
Port - 1

So 9 teams have shared in the past 20 flags. That will remain the case no matter who wins it this year. Collingwood, bulldogs and port are the only 3 of those 9 with just the 1 flag. 2 of those, Port and Collingwood, contended for years either side of their respective flags. Granted the two flags each of sydney and west coast were different teams, but 4 of the 9 teams capitalised on their successful eras.

So I think we have certainly underachieved and are an exception to the rule moreso because we just haven't contended at all either side of our flag year. Some of that is understandable because our flag was exceptional. We cam from nowhere, had a young list and lost significant personnel very soon after the flag. But the latter is largely our fault and there have been successfull "young" premiers before who have continued their success.

We still have time to continue the success but I think we need significant improvement. It's a shame really. Who in the entire footy world didn't think 2016 was the start of a dynasty? Amazing young talent, great innovative coach and a huge amount of bandwagon support and marketing attention. We dropped the ball big time but it's history now and we need to focus on new momentum.

Thanks thats a good analysis. Very interesting. Cats geez theyve been up ever since we beat them in rd 1 2007! But they haven't won one for nearly ten years, Lions longer. Of that list Hawks and Tigers have dominated the 20 teens, amazing with the equalisation we could have 6 of the last 10 won by 2 teams. Actually would be like last 6 from 8.

Only a third of teams have won multiple flags in last 20 seasons ? I think thats kind of the point I was making (I think I had a point !?). Its bloody hard to win it multiple times. If we had a reset, a bevolution, then maybe the last two seasons are the entrée.

I think we have made mistakes btw certainly not wearing the rose coloured glasses. Agree with most points around coaching panel, ruck, gaps in list.

[DOG GOD]

Yep. Especially when all rumours surrounding the upcoming trade period have us linked to the likes of Lonie and Hannan.

I dunno. I just feel we have so many areas that need a shake up. And that's not just the playing group. Thank god we have JUH coming otherwise there wouldn't be much to look forward to. I know things can turn around suddenly in this industry but we've had 4 years of subpar performances where the same problems have repeated themselves and we haven't made many changes to address them. Watching last nights game also made me feel worse about our loss to the saints. We would have been blown away by either port or the tiges. Their pace, intensity, pressure and system absolutely blows ours away.

Agree 100%. We are realistically miles off when it comes to all those things you listed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Thanks thats a good analysis. Very interesting. Cats geez theyve been up ever since we beat them in rd 1 2007! But they haven't won one for nearly ten years, Lions longer. Of that list Hawks and Tigers have dominated the 20 teens, amazing with the equalisation we could have 6 of the last 10 won by 2 teams. Actually would be like last 6 from 8.

Only a third of teams have won multiple flags in last 20 seasons ? I think thats kind of the point I was making (I think I had a point !?). Its bloody hard to win it multiple times. If we had a reset, a bevolution, then maybe the last two seasons are the entrée.

I think we have made mistakes btw certainly not wearing the rose coloured glasses. Agree with most points around coaching panel, ruck, gaps in list.

Yeah I think it's a bit of both. It's bloody hard to win a flag despite the recent evidence of the Tigers and Hawks. I mean just look at last night the difference between making a grand final and missing out. The Hawks also won close ones over thier journey and we all know here how difficult it is to make a grand final. Luck always plays a part.

But what is disappointing for our team is that we haven't even put ourselves in a position to contend. 4 seaons since our flag for 2 lousy elimination final losses.

[Grantysghost]

But what is disappointing for our team is that we haven't even put ourselves in a position to contend. 4 seaons since our flag for 2 lousy elimination final losses.

Yes agree totally, another finals win or two would've been par.

[Danjul]

Yeah I think it's a bit of both. It's bloody hard to win a flag despite the recent evidence of the Tigers and Hawks. I mean just look at last night the difference between making a grand final and missing out. The Hawks also won close ones over thier journey and we all know here how difficult it is to make a grand final. Luck always plays a part.

But what is disappointing for our team is that we haven't even put ourselves in a position to contend. 4 seaons since our flag for 2 lousy elimination final losses.

I honestly doubt that the Dogs would have won last night, or even got there, if we had Richmond’s playing list. For example,

One of their players kept getting selected during the season when his lowest 10 possession counts were:

4, 4 5 6 6 7 8 9 9 9 - that’s an average of 6 possessions. And his season’s best was 14.

and he didn’t get any hitouts despite being 199 cm tall. Would not have suited our game plan. If you can’t run in the ruck like Dunkley you’re out.

But Richmond plays specialists. And so his 30 goals helped bring them continuing success. At Richmond, do one thing very well and you’re in.

[Danjul]

Let's say the tigers win the flag this year. If you look at the last 20 flags:
......

So I think we have certainly underachieved and are an exception to the rule moreso because we just haven't contended at all either side of our flag year. Some of that is understandable because our flag was exceptional. We cam from nowhere, had a young list and lost significant personnel very soon after the flag. But the latter is largely our fault and there have been successfull "young" premiers before who have continued their success.

......We dropped the ball big time but it's history now and we need to focus on new momentum.

I don’t agree that we came from nowhere. The club had been recruiting very well for a few years and had some exceptional talent maturing. I expected us to go further in 2015, we had spent almost all of the season in the top 8 and were very consistent.

Same for 2016. The only thing holding us back was injuries.

What was exceptional was our failure after the premiership.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I don’t agree that we came from nowhere. The club had been recruiting very well for a few years and had some exceptional talent maturing. I expected us to go further in 2015, we had spent almost all of the season in the top 8 and were very consistent.

Same for 2016. The only thing holding us back was injuries.

What was exceptional was our failure after the premiership.

You’re right. I suppose I was more referring to where we came from after 2014. But 2016, despite finishing 7th, we were only a couple games of top spot and had plenty of injuries to contend with. People are amazed we did it from 7th. The finals journey from 7th was amazing but we weren’t a true 7th team. That season teams 1-7 were insanely even.

[Grantysghost]

You’re right. I suppose I was more referring to where we came from after 2014. But 2016, despite finishing 7th, we were only a couple games of top spot and had plenty of injuries to contend with. People are amazed we did it from 7th. The finals journey from 7th was amazing but we weren’t a true 7th team. That season teams 1-7 were insanely even.

Yes and we finished the season 19-7 after finals same as the Swans I believe.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yes and we finished the season 19-7 after finals same as the Swans I believe.

We also beat every team in the comp except Geelong who we only played once down at the cattery. Lost Libba that game after losing Wally and Redpath the week prior. Nearly pinched it in any case.

[Mitcha]

We also beat every team in the comp except Geelong who we only played once down at the cattery. Lost Libba that game after losing Wally and Redpath the week prior. Nearly pinched it in any case.
And Jack Macrae

[bulldogsthru&thru]

And Jack Macrae

That’s right. I knew there was someone else.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Gotta say we played some amazing football in 2016. I went to both rounds 1 and 2 and that was some of the best football I’ve seen this club play. The following week against the hawks we still played great but left the door open a bit. Losing Murph hurt and it started the injury run but we still demolished carlton and Brisbane the next two weeks.

[GVGjr]

Time to get back on topic

Matthew Suckling - Do we sign him up again for another season?
Jackson Trengove - The indications are that Trengove won't be at the Dogs in 2021
Buku Khamis - Do we stock with Khamis for another year or two?
Ben Cavarra - Has he shown enough in 2 seasons to get another season
Billy Gowers - Has ability but just doesn't seem to fit our forward set-up now
Callum Porter - Young but hasn't quite shown enough
Tory Dickson - Retired, thanks for the outstanding service Dicko
Brad Lynch - Would we give him another season?
Roarke Smith - Has shown enough to get another season
Fergus Greene - Plenty of ability but he can't crack it for a spot. Do we invest another 12 months in him?
Will Hayes - In racing terms, lightly raced. Do we give him another 12 months?
Lachie Young - Surely he gets another 1 or 2 year deal.
Lin Jong - A real warrior but do we stick with him given his injury troubles?
Taylor Duryea - Do we have too many defenders?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on who survives and he is leaving?

Do we shop around Lewis Young, Josh Schache, Bailey Dale and Ed Richards to see if there is much interest?

[Webby]

We also beat every team in the comp except Geelong who we only played once down at the cattery. Lost Libba that game after losing Wally and Redpath the week prior. Nearly pinched it in any case.

Libba was schooling Selwood prior to injuring his ankle, too. I remember feeling short changed after that game.

[DOG GOD]

Time to get back on topic

Matthew Suckling - Do we sign him up again for another season?
Jackson Trengove - The indications are that Trengove won't be at the Dogs in 2021
Buku Khamis - Do we stock with Khamis for another year or two?
Ben Cavarra - Has he shown enough in 2 seasons to get another season
Billy Gowers - Has ability but just doesn't seem to fit our forward set-up now
Callum Porter - Young but hasn't quite shown enough
Tory Dickson - Retired, thanks for the outstanding service Dicko
Brad Lynch - Would we give him another season?
Roarke Smith - Has shown enough to get another season
Fergus Greene - Plenty of ability but he can't crack it for a spot. Do we invest another 12 months in him?
Will Hayes - In racing terms, lightly raced. Do we give him another 12 months?
Lachie Young - Surely he gets another 1 or 2 year deal.
Lin Jong - A real warrior but do we stick with him given his injury troubles?
Taylor Duryea - Do we have too many defenders?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on who survives and he is leaving?

Do we shop around Lewis Young, Josh Schache, Bailey Dale and Ed Richards to see if there is much interest?

Out of that list I think we have seen the last of...

Suckling
Trengove
Porter
Lynch
Hayes

Khamis/cavarra 50/50

Greene/Jong/Duryea are All kept on for short contracts

I think Gowers/smith/lach Young will be retained for obvious Bevo reasons (he loves 2 of them)

Dale/Richards I’d keep as they have shown when playing at their best, they are best 22. It’s all about consistency and a desire to be hungry for longer periods.i still have a bit of faith in both to be retained.

I think Lew Young is on his way to Crows and Schache on his way to North.

[azabob]

Time to get back on topic

Matthew Suckling - Do we sign him up again for another season?
Jackson Trengove - The indications are that Trengove won't be at the Dogs in 2021
Buku Khamis - Do we stock with Khamis for another year or two?
Ben Cavarra - Has he shown enough in 2 seasons to get another season
Billy Gowers - Has ability but just doesn't seem to fit our forward set-up now
Callum Porter - Young but hasn't quite shown enough
Tory Dickson - Retired, thanks for the outstanding service Dicko
Brad Lynch - Would we give him another season?
Roarke Smith - Has shown enough to get another season
Fergus Greene - Plenty of ability but he can't crack it for a spot. Do we invest another 12 months in him?
Will Hayes - In racing terms, lightly raced. Do we give him another 12 months?
Lachie Young - Surely he gets another 1 or 2 year deal.
Lin Jong - A real warrior but do we stick with him given his injury troubles?
Taylor Duryea - Do we have too many defenders?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on who survives and he is leaving?

Do we shop around Lewis Young, Josh Schache, Bailey Dale and Ed Richards to see if there is much interest?

Firstly I think we should shop around the players you mentioned and also add Cordy, Lipinski.

Reality is we should be listening to offers for 80% of our list.

Having had a few weeks since we were eliminated I think we need to

KEEP: Wood, Duryea, Jong, Sweet, Gardner,

DELIST: : Gowers, Greene, Trengove, Lynch, Cavarra, Hayes, Porter, Suckling, Lachie Young, Khamis, Dickson and Roarke Smith. I'd still payout and delist Sam Lloyd

Of my delisted players some would play senior footy in 2021, but I'm not sure that is a reason we should keep them on our list. We know what they all offer and what their short comings are.

I doubt the club will cut that deep and likely keep Roarke Smith, Lachie Young and one of Cavarra / Greene. I think Suckling is also 70/30 chance at being kept on the list.

[Mofra]

DELIST: : Gowers, Greene, Trengove, Lynch, Cavarra, Hayes, Porter, Suckling, Lachie Young, Khamis, Dickson and Roarke Smith. I'd still payout and delist Sam Lloyd
13 players? Who would we replace them all with? I get list sizes are going to be reduced and we have 3 kids to bring in, but what about the other spots?

Lachie Young is a kid who has shown a fair bit as an intercepting defender, I really don't get the call to delist him. Roarke Smith gets another year given his late season form as a role player. I suspect Hayes stays as well although if we were to pick up a genuine wingman at the trade table (e.g. Phillips) he'd be in trouble.

I'm not sure that picking up 4-5 late speculative picks this draft is the best year for it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

13 players? Who would we replace them all with? I get list sizes are going to be reduced and we have 3 kids to bring in, but what about the other spots?

Lachie Young is a kid who has shown a fair bit as an intercepting defender, I really don't get the call to delist him. Roarke Smith gets another year given his late season form as a role player. I suspect Hayes stays as well although if we were to pick up a genuine wingman at the trade table (e.g. Phillips) he'd be in trouble.

I'm not sure that picking up 4-5 late speculative picks this draft is the best year for it.

I agree with this but it highlights our continual inability to cut deeper into the list. We routinely hang onto players who we either don't play or who simply aren't up to the level, and it's coming back to bite now because you really couldn't argue with those 13 names listed but we just can't afford to cut THAT deep given the current circumstances. If we had of properly managed the list in the years previous, we wouldn't be in such position.

Just on La Young, he definitely stays but I don't see the appeal. Not overly strong or impressively athletic, not quick, skills are average and drastically overrated by some on here, far behind in the pecking order for HBF. I'm really not sure what he brings to the table beyond endurance. He strikes me as a lesser version of Roarke.

[Mofra]

Just on La Young, he definitely stays but I don't see the appeal. Not overly strong or impressively athletic, not quick, skills are average and drastically overrated by some on here, far behind in the pecking order for HBF. I'm really not sure what he brings to the table beyond endurance. He strikes me as a lesser version of Roarke.
Excellent overhead and judged the ball well in flight, takes riskier options in his kicks and keeps them low.
He's 4 inches taller than Roarke so not really the same player. Like Ed Richards he's a much, much better player behind the ball.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Excellent overhead and judged the ball well in flight, takes riskier options in his kicks and keeps them low.
He's 4 inches taller than Roarke so not really the same player. Like Ed Richards he's a much, much better player behind the ball.

Agree he's better behind the ball but he's miles away from being a worthy HBF. It's a position that requires you to have a special skill if you're going to last - athleticism (Wood circa 15-16, Crozier), pace (JJ), vision/skill (Daniel), combativeness (M Boyd) and he just doesn't really exude any of this. He might judge the ball in flight OK but he's not marking many balls at his size and I'd argue he kicks more balls along the ground than he does hitting a teammates chest. Lacks penetration too.

I hope he develops quickly but I don't see it.

[GVGjr]

13 players? Who would we replace them all with? I get list sizes are going to be reduced and we have 3 kids to bring in, but what about the other spots?

Lachie Young is a kid who has shown a fair bit as an intercepting defender, I really don't get the call to delist him. Roarke Smith gets another year given his late season form as a role player. I suspect Hayes stays as well although if we were to pick up a genuine wingman at the trade table (e.g. Phillips) he'd be in trouble.

I'm not sure that picking up 4-5 late speculative picks this draft is the best year for it.

Just on Lachie Young, I suspect he is now being groomed for a permanent role on the wing given his aerobic capacity
Could he model his game on Dursma?

[jeemak]

Does Stefan Martin have two years in him and would we use him? Hasn't been offered a deal with Brisbane as yet.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/long-serving-lion-sweating-on-new-deal-20201018-p5668b.html

[soupman]

Does Stefan Martin have two years in him and would we use him? Hasn't been offered a deal with Brisbane as yet.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/long-serving-lion-sweating-on-new-deal-20201018-p5668b.html

I think he is cooked, although I thought the same about Ryder and here we are.

[comrade]

Martin was worked over big time by Stanley/Blicavs. Doesn't seem to be covering the ground as well anymore, and he's never really been a threat up forward so unlikely to combine well with English swapping ruck/forward time.

It's a pass from me.

[Axe Man]

Also think Martin is done and is 34 next month. I reckon Brisbane would just keep him if they think he could go around again.

[GVGjr]

Does Stefan Martin have two years in him and would we use him? Hasn't been offered a deal with Brisbane as yet.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/long-serving-lion-sweating-on-new-deal-20201018-p5668b.html

He has at least one more year in him. If he is fit enough I'd be interested

[Mofra]

Just on Lachie Young, I suspect he is now being groomed for a permanent role on the wing given his aerobic capacity
Could he model his game on Dursma?
He'd require a lot of VFL time for that to occur. I think he is a potential replacement for Wood/Crozier given his ability to intercept mark and judge the flight of the ball in the air.

[Happy Days]

No to Martin. His big strength was his ability to cover ground and get involved in possession chains and his body is too cooked to let him do it anymore. Plus I think he's lost a bit of physicality and isn't a big improvement on Tim in actual ruck contests.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

No to Martin. His big strength was his ability to cover ground and get involved in possession chains and his body is too cooked to let him do it anymore. Plus I think he's lost a bit of physicality and isn't a big improvement on Tim in actual ruck contests.

And what would be the point in him playing when we have Goldstein? He’ll have to be willing to toil away in the VFL

[Doc26]

Noting the names put up in this thread for possible delisting, what happened to Brad Lynch's development, and why did he fall out of favour? After some promising signs, is he now that far off the mark? Unlike most of the names put up, he's one that doesn't sit as comfortably given what he's shown glimpses of.

[Happy Days]

And what would be the point in him playing when we have Goldstein? He’ll have to be willing to toil away in the VFL

I did half-heartedly advocate for a ~super team~ of 22 ruckmen so was just clearing up any confusion.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I did half-heartedly advocate for a ~super team~ of 22 ruckmen so was just clearing up any confusion.

You don't want to read the rumours in 'Trade Dunkley' thread then. Your wishes could be shattered by Dodo.

[Happy Days]

Noting the names put up in this thread for possible delisting, what happened to Brad Lynch's development, and why did he fall out of favour? After some promising signs, is he now that far off the mark? Unlike most of the names put up, he's one that doesn't sit as comfortably given what he's shown glimpses of.

Lynch was given the license with no expectations in 2018, and as fun as it was at times only his game against Richmond was really any good. He was conversely full on awful last year, and apparently must have been much the same this year given that he wasn't considered at any point despite a clean bill of health. I think it might just be that he's not any good.

I'm more confused by us giving up on Fergus, who looked similarly impressive in 2018, had his season last year ruined with injury, and seemed to kick a ton of goals in the scratch matches yet was continually overlooked.

[soupman]

It'd be much easier for us WOOF posters to make a decision on these guys future if we heard literally anything about either how they were playing in the scratch matches this year or what areas they needed to improve on. Alas we just have to go off what we can see, which is stuff all.

There is no way we can retain Lynch or Greene. They are both players that have been on the list for 4+ years with about a month of senior football each, and even then they were potentially picked on the basis of "there is no one else to pick". If we haven't deemed them worthy of selection for that long a time period with no sign of improvement behind the scenes then there is absolutely no way we can retain them, even if they do play in a position of need and seemingly have attributes that could be handy.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It'd be much easier for us WOOF posters to make a decision on these guys future if we heard literally anything about either how they were playing in the scratch matches this year or what areas they needed to improve on. Alas we just have to go off what we can see, which is stuff all.

There is no way we can retain Lynch or Greene. They are both players that have been on the list for 4+ years with about a month of senior football each, and even then they were potentially picked on the basis of "there is no one else to pick". If we haven't deemed them worthy of selection for that long a time period with no sign of improvement behind the scenes then there is absolutely no way we can retain them, even if they do play in a position of need and seemingly have attributes that could be handy.

The decision to retain the likes of Lynch, Greene and Porter would be more confusing than retaining them.

We never cut into the list deep enough, so I suspect we'll have a couple on the list who realistically won't play next year and will be subsequently delisted a year later. Khamis is a little different but probably falls into a 'nearby' category.

[soupman]

Khamis is a little different but probably falls into a 'nearby' category.

Yeah he is another where in the absence of any information provided to us I'd be inclined to cut him. We are so keen to give young guys their first taste of football that if they don't come close within two seasons I can't see them making it. Have we had a single player not make the debut in their first two seasons at the club and still go on and be at least serviceable? Even JJ who was as raw as they come managed 3 games in his second season.

I'm not saying cut them if they don't get a game after two seasons, but I do think in that scenario I'd want to see some pretty compelling reasons why they should be retained on the list.

I've said this before but in normal circumstances if we like someone like Khamis but haven't seen him come close to getting a game in two years then cut him but try to use our VFL team to our advantage. Keep him at the club if possible, let him do the whole half pre season thing where they try out for one of those extra spots available in March (like the ones Sydney Stack, Darren Minchington, Keegan Brooksby etc. got picked up in), pick him up then if we are convinced he might play, if not he has until the mid season draft to show the necessary improvement, if not then he has to hope he can show enough to get redrafted the conventional way. It gives us an extra list spot to play around with and find someone, and means a year of watching a player contribute nothing isn't done on the clubs list, effectively making Footscray our feeder team. If we lose him so be it, but I'd much rather we took this approach every now and then than just hand out 4-5 years of AFL contracts to guys that never come close.

[azabob]

13 players? Who would we replace them all with? I get list sizes are going to be reduced and we have 3 kids to bring in, but what about the other spots?

Lachie Young is a kid who has shown a fair bit as an intercepting defender, I really don't get the call to delist him. Roarke Smith gets another year given his late season form as a role player. I suspect Hayes stays as well although if we were to pick up a genuine wingman at the trade table (e.g. Phillips) he'd be in trouble.

I'm not sure that picking up 4-5 late speculative picks this draft is the best year for it.

When do we actually cut into the list? Our list management is poor and it is currently being highlighted.

Lachie Young showed signs in 2019 as a intercept defender. In 2020 he played two games, from memory neither as a defender. There appear to a lot of players ahead of him for the 6th or 7th defender spot.

Will Hayes showed promise also in 2019, but come 2020 he plays two games late in the year. Why wasn't he played when Hunter was missing?

I don't disagree Young and Smith should get another contract, but surely by signing them we are repeating the same mistakes.

[ledge]

The decision to retain the likes of Lynch, Greene and Porter would be more confusing than retaining them.

We never cut into the list deep enough, so I suspect we'll have a couple on the list who realistically won't play next year and will be subsequently delisted a year later. Khamis is a little different but probably falls into a 'nearby' category.

You can’t cut too deep or you end up taking players who are the same or worse.
I’m a fan of Greene I would like him to have another year with hopefully the VFL up and running.

[soupman]

You can’t cut too deep or you end up taking players who are the same or worse.

How could we possibly put someone on our list who is a worse addition to the list than two guys who in 9 seasons of senior football have combined for 14 games, all coming at the end of 2018 when we had no one else to pick and we were bog average?

If you take out 2018 they have combined for 7 seasons and 0 games, notably none in the last two years despite one being a creative and speedy half forward with a nice kick and the other being a good leading forward who hits the scoreboard, it isn't as if they've been kept out by our gun mids.

We love persisting with these low percentage guys and i can't think of any that have paid off. If we rated them we would have found a way to at least have a look at them in the last two years, like we have with Roarke Smith.

List spots are so valuable, even if you are replacing these guys with delisted players or rookies on 1 year contracts you are a better chance imo of finding someone who can contribute.

[comrade]

How could we possibly put someone on our list who is a worse addition to the list than two guys who in 9 seasons of senior football have combined for 14 games, all coming at the end of 2018 when we had no one else to pick and we were bog average?

If you take out 2018 they have combined for 7 seasons and 0 games, notably none in the last two years despite one being a creative and speedy half forward with a nice kick and the other being a good leading forward who hits the scoreboard, it isn't as if they've been kept out by our gun mids.

We love persisting with these low percentage guys and i can't think of any that have paid off. If we rated them we would have found a way to at least have a look at them in the last two years, like we have with Roarke Smith.

List spots are so valuable, even if you are replacing these guys with delisted players or rookies on 1 year contracts you are a better chance imo of finding someone who can contribute.

Would like this 10 times if I could.

[Mitcha]

I'm a bit surprised at the amount of people on here happy for the club to look at moving on Ritchards and/or JJ. I understand the frustration with both at times but take a look at our list. They along with VDM, Bailey Smith and Jong (when available) are the only ones with breakaway speed amongst a list of primarily one paced types and are an area we need to add to rather than diminish.

[comrade]

I'm a bit surprised at the amount of people on here happy for the club to look at moving on Ritchards and/or JJ. I understand the frustration with both at times but take a look at our list. They along with VDM, Bailey Smith and Jong (when available) are the only ones with breakaway speed amongst a list of primarily one paced types and are an area we need to add to rather than diminish.

Richards gets it 7 times a game most weeks. What's the point of having speed if you use it to run where the ball isn't?

And then when he does manage to get on the end of it, he shanks it more often than not.

[Mofra]

I'm a bit surprised at the amount of people on here happy for the club to look at moving on Ritchards and/or JJ. I understand the frustration with both at times but take a look at our list. They along with VDM, Bailey Smith and Jong (when available) are the only ones with breakaway speed amongst a list of primarily one paced types and are an area we need to add to rather than diminish.
I'm certainly not in the trade JJ camp, but Richards is being played completely out of position and if we were to get a good offer I'd listen. Not actively shopping him around, but I'd listen.

[1eyedog]

I'm certainly not in the trade JJ camp, but Richards is being played completely out of position and if we were to get a good offer I'd listen. Not actively shopping him around, but I'd listen.

For sure. Unfortunately we've done nothing to enhance his trade value. He'll probably have a breakout year next year...

[G-Mo77]

Richards gets it 7 times a game most weeks. What's the point of having speed if you use it to run where the ball isn't?

And then when he does manage to get on the end of it, he shanks it more often than not.

I guess you have to weigh up if that's his ceiling or not. I don't think it is, I think he'll be OK.

We need to really cut the fringe players from the list IMO. The players that won't get any better, are great VFL players ( and trainers) but just can't cut it consistently at senior level. We play "Money Ball" to often with these types and the percentage of them breaking out to be our best is so low. We're better off cutting and hitting more in the later rounds and rookie draft.

[comrade]

I guess you have to weigh up if that's his ceiling or not. I don't think it is, I think he'll be OK.

We need to really cut the fringe players from the list IMO. The players that won't get any better, are great VFL players ( and trainers) but just can't cut it consistently at senior level. We play "Money Ball" to often with these types and the percentage of them breaking out to be our best is so low. We're better off cutting and hitting more in the later rounds and rookie draft.

Yeah, get your point and you're probably right. We keep 'low ceiling' types way too long for whatever reason.

[Dry Rot]

Lots of odd talk about the Bombers pursuing Dunkley.

If were the Bombers, I would not be targeting the impossible with Dunkley, but rather target young Westie.

[Go_Dogs]

Richards in 100% a keeper, as is JJ.

We must be one of few clubs not to have had much / any media around lost moves (although I could’ve missed it). Going to be a flurry of activity soon I suspect.

[G-Mo77]

Yeah, get your point and you're probably right. We keep 'low ceiling' types way too long for whatever reason.

So you think he's hit his ceiling comrade?

If our club think that then we should pull the trigger now while he has some currency.

[comrade]

So you think he's hit his ceiling comrade?

If our club think that then we should pull the trigger now while he has some currency.

No, not Richards. Referring to the likes of Greene, Roarke, Lynch etc

[azabob]

I guess you have to weigh up if that's his ceiling or not. I don't think it is, I think he'll be OK.

We need to really cut the fringe players from the list IMO. The players that won't get any better, are great VFL players ( and trainers) but just can't cut it consistently at senior level. We play "Money Ball" to often with these types and the percentage of them breaking out to be our best is so low. We're better off cutting and hitting more in the later rounds and rookie draft.

Agree. We should be cutting hard and deep, regardless of the talent pool this year.

We seriously just need to pull the band aid off in one go.

We have delayed it for too long and now it is coming back to haunt us again and again and again.

[Mofra]

Agree. We should be cutting hard and deep, regardless of the talent pool this year.

We seriously just need to pull the band aid off in one go.

We have delayed it for too long and now it is coming back to haunt us again and again and again.
This would be the year more than any other that we should be able to find a DFA to fill a list need.
Unfortunately until the AFL make an announcement on list sizes we'll probably have an information vacuum.

[soupman]

Unfortunately until the AFL make an announcement on list sizes we'll probably have an information vacuum.
The fact that they still haven't made a call on that despite talking about it for literally months and trade period being effectively a week away is a great example of just how amateurish this league is. Their incompetence knows no bounds.

Meanwhile Gil and half the execs are chilling in Brisbane enjoying the social scene.

[azabob]

I'm not sure the hold up in list size announcements is all on the AFL.

Players Association would be having a big say in this and I would not be surprised if they are just as much to blame as the AFL for the hold up.