List Management for 2020/21

[ledge]

Certainly not raving about him I don’t rate Cox in the ruck just giving people a reference point.

Good reference point actually.
A bit like English good against the mediocre in the ruck.
Don’t get me wrong Engish is a very good player just not in the ruck.
Cox is a very limited player, when the ball hits the ground he is nowhere as good as English.
A good forward as a target up high but a very mediocre ruck , pretty much a one trick pony.

[Happy Days]

No one has listened to Matt Rendell for like 10 years, why do we all of a sudden want to start now?

There is NOTHING to suggest that Cox is even a VFL standard ruck. Can we please actually try to do something worthwhile.

[soupman]

Should we be into any of the Geelong boys being pushed out to make way for the old brigade?

As far as I'm aware, Brad Close, Darcy Fort, Nakia Cockatoo, Quinton Narkle, Sam Simpson and Zach Guthrie are out of contract while Charlie Constable, Esava Ratugolea, Jordan Clark and Lachlan Fogarty all seem on the outer. Parfitt hasn't officially signed on but is rumoured to have extended for 2 more years.

Do any of these players hold interest to us? Almost all would cost stuff all I'd imagine, most have looked decent at stages albeit may have benefitted from having low expectations as being the 20th-22nd man.

Some are types we need/want, Ratugolea and Fort are mobile second rucks of questionable quality, Cockatoo and Clark are injury prone quick running wingers, Close, Narkle and Fogarty are all pacy half forwards that kind of crumb, Constable is a big bodied mid with a nice kick who is pretty slow and Simpson is a clean half forward/mid that seems the most established of the lot in their 22.

[azabob]

So.... whispers that Elliot Yeo is gettable....

Big Footy whisper or something more concrete.

Elliot Yeo would be welcomed.

[ledge]

Should we be into any of the Geelong boys being pushed out to make way for the old brigade?

As far as I'm aware, Brad Close, Darcy Fort, Nakia Cockatoo, Quinton Narkle, Sam Simpson and Zach Guthrie are out of contract while Charlie Constable, Esava Ratugolea, Jordan Clark and Lachlan Fogarty all seem on the outer. Parfitt hasn't officially signed on but is rumoured to have extended for 2 more years.

Do any of these players hold interest to us? Almost all would cost stuff all I'd imagine, most have looked decent at stages albeit may have benefitted from having low expectations as being the 20th-22nd man.

Some are types we need/want, Ratugolea and Fort are mobile second rucks of questionable quality, Cockatoo and Clark are injury prone quick running wingers, Close, Narkle and Fogarty are all pacy half forwards that kind of crumb, Constable is a big bodied mid with a nice kick who is pretty slow and Simpson is a clean half forward/mid that seems the most established of the lot in their 22.

Forte is another ex Footscray player we were looking at originally like Hannan .

[1eyedog]

So.... whispers that Elliot Yeo is gettable....

Come again? How is this even possible?

Don't tell Essington.

[Ghost Dog]

Good reference point actually.
A bit like English good against the mediocre in the ruck.
Don’t get me wrong Engish is a very good player just not in the ruck.
Cox is a very limited player, when the ball hits the ground he is nowhere as good as English.
A good forward as a target up high but a very mediocre ruck , pretty much a one trick pony.

Is English bad in the ruck? or just not good enough.

[DOG GOD]

Is English bad in the ruck? or just not good enough.

Personally, not good enough to be the #1 ruck.
Ideally we would have a Goldstein/nankervis type as our #1 and English as #2 for mine, and I would get English to roam between the 50’s.

[hujsh]

Is English bad in the ruck? or just not good enough.

He can beat up on the bad ruckmen and shows ability at times against good ones but mostly gets beat up by them.

[bornadog]

Is English bad in the ruck? or just not good enough.

GD I will give you a different view. At his age he is tracking just as well as the Goldys of the world at the same age.

He gets beaten by the better ruckman, but another couple of years and he will be a big weapon

[Danjul]

GD I will give you a different view. At his age he is tracking just as well as the Goldys of the world at the same age.

He gets beaten by the better ruckman, but another couple of years and he will be a big weapon


He is already a big weapon. Just not in the ruck.

Elimination final: 8 hitouts. A dozen might have won the game.

And the rest of the team isn’t being moulded around his strengths.

Elimination final: in the first quarter Bulldog players spoiled his attempts at marking 3 times. Why are they anywhere near him in those situations?

[Bulldog Joe]

GD I will give you a different view. At his age he is tracking just as well as the Goldys of the world at the same age.

He gets beaten by the better ruckman, but another couple of years and he will be a big weapon

He is a big weapon as an around the ground tall, when he is playing with confidence. He was immense in the West Coast game (no NicNat) apart from the ruck.

He can get hitouts to advantage, but his ruck ability is way below standard. It may get to standard, but it may not.

Bevo likes the really tall midfielder he brings but I think we need a strategy to neutralise the ruck.

[Ghost Dog]

Thanks for the perspective Danjul, Bad and BJoe.

Incredible agility for the height. What were they feeding him as a lad?
I'd prefer we not destroy his body in the ruck too early. Great highlights reel so far.
We are a bit impatient and forget how young these guys are.

[1eyedog]

GD I will give you a different view. At his age he is tracking just as well as the Goldys of the world at the same age.

He gets beaten by the better ruckman, but another couple of years and he will be a big weapon

Agreed. He is young and is rucking alone. What do people expect?

[Danjul]

Agreed. He is young and is rucking alone. What do people expect?
Many don’t expect a young, underdeveloped ruckman to ruck alone for years to the detriment of both him and the team.

A brilliant midfield is dragged down, the backline is put under unnecessary pressure and the opposition is made more confident.

Elimination final: It took St Kilda 6 seconds from the starting siren to get the ball within 30 metres of goal.

This raises the stress levels for the supporters who anticipated a ruck stuff up (because they had watched game 2 of the season).

[bornadog]

Agreed. He is young and is rucking alone. What do people expect?

Exactly, I did say give him a few more years, plus he is tracking the same as some of the best rucks in Goldy and Gawn at the same age.

[MrMahatma]

Exactly, I did say give him a few more years, plus he is tracking the same as some of the best rucks in Goldy and Gawn at the same age.

I think the issue is... 2 years is a long time and if winning ruck contests is important, we need to start that from next year. In 2 years the rest of the squad are 2 years older and that means some playing worse than now.

English should be developed. But not at the detriment to our chances of winning a flag. It feels like it would hurt us next year if we don’t have another decent ruck.

[ledge]

Is English bad in the ruck? or just not good enough.

I just think he isn’t big enough in the upper body yet and learnt all the craft, I believe he will be good though eventually.

[Bulldog Joe]

I just think he isn’t big enough in the upper body yet and learnt all the craft, I believe he will be good though eventually.

I believe he is plenty big enough, but he does not have the craft.

[soupman]

I believe he is plenty big enough, but he does not have the craft.

This is my viewpoint as well.

I really think he is actually the perfect second ruck. I look at what St.Kilda did, they had Rowan Marshall who had a fantastic year as the sole ruck but realised he was good enough to hold his own as a spare tall and they brought in Ryder to do the bulk of the ruckwork releasing Marshall to contribute elsewhere. I think if we did similiar, using someone like Goldstein, it would make us a better side and English a better player.

We've talked a little about getting a third tall forward in to help English but the obvious targets like Cox and Wright do not compliment our forward setup with Bruce and Naughton at all. I think English does.

[1eyedog]

Many don’t expect a young, underdeveloped ruckman to ruck alone for years to the detriment of both him and the team.

A brilliant midfield is dragged down, the backline is put under unnecessary pressure and the opposition is made more confident.

Elimination final: It took St Kilda 6 seconds from the starting siren to get the ball within 30 metres of goal.

This raises the stress levels for the supporters who anticipated a ruck stuff up (because they had watched game 2 of the season).

Blame Bevo the Tim bashing is getting tiresome. Of course he doesn't have the craft he hasn't developed it yet. That said if Steven King can't teach this then I'm all for a Steph Martin for a year. A gap filler helps us immediately and helps Tim long-term.

[DOG GOD]

It’s ok if Bevo wants Tim to ruck alone to fast track his development or whatever, but what about the mental scars he’s getting along the way having to ruck alone against the Grundys and Gawns of the competition.

After round 2 against the saints, blind Freddy could’ve seen the writing on the wall for the elimination final, and it was proven. English was once again smashed by the double team of Ryder and Marshall.

English will be a great player, but it might not be as the #1 ruck. He would seriously have to build his body for that. His biggest weapon is his marking ability, his agility to get between the 50 arcs and his ability to be good below the knees, with sound skills and good kicking technique. How about Bevo plays him to these strengths instead of throwing him to the wolves.

[josie]

Could not have said it better DG. I’m not sure he will ever be as good a ruck as Goldy, Gawn or Grundy. It’s not just his weaker upper body, I think it is his lack of aggression. Oh how I hope I am wrong. Has so much else to offer though. In interim why do we let him get ravaged and imo lose games by not having adequate support?

[DOG GOD]

Could not have said it better DG. I’m not sure he will ever be as good a ruck as Goldy, Gawn or Grundy. It’s not just his weaker upper body, I think it is his lack of aggression. Oh how I hope I am wrong. Has so much else to offer though. In interim why do we let him get ravaged and imo lose games by not having adequate support?

Totally agree Josie. Surely being butchered by the same opposition players can’t be good for his confidence coming up against those same guys.

[Danjul]

Blame Bevo the Tim bashing is getting tiresome. Of course he doesn't have the craft he hasn't developed it yet. That said if Steven King can't teach this then I'm all for a Steph Martin for a year. A gap filler helps us immediately and helps Tim long-term.
I don’t think I have ever seen a comment here that criticised Tim. He is talented and does his best. Just hasn’t been used sensibly.

[kruder]

Should we be into any of the Geelong boys being pushed out to make way for the old brigade?

As far as I'm aware, Brad Close, Darcy Fort, Nakia Cockatoo, Quinton Narkle, Sam Simpson and Zach Guthrie are out of contract while Charlie Constable, Esava Ratugolea, Jordan Clark and Lachlan Fogarty all seem on the outer. Parfitt hasn't officially signed on but is rumoured to have extended for 2 more years.

Do any of these players hold interest to us? Almost all would cost stuff all I'd imagine, most have looked decent at stages albeit may have benefitted from having low expectations as being the 20th-22nd man.

Some are types we need/want, Ratugolea and Fort are mobile second rucks of questionable quality, Cockatoo and Clark are injury prone quick running wingers, Close, Narkle and Fogarty are all pacy half forwards that kind of crumb, Constable is a big bodied mid with a nice kick who is pretty slow and Simpson is a clean half forward/mid that seems the most established of the lot in their 22.

Menegola sounds like he could fall out of the tree, we should be all over him. Would be nice to add some experience we could get 4 good years out of him.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

It’s ok if Bevo wants Tim to ruck alone to fast track his development or whatever, but what about the mental scars he’s getting along the way having to ruck alone against the Grundys and Gawns of the competition.

After round 2 against the saints, blind Freddy could’ve seen the writing on the wall for the elimination final, and it was proven. English was once again smashed by the double team of Ryder and Marshall.

English will be a great player, but it might not be as the #1 ruck. He would seriously have to build his body for that. His biggest weapon is his marking ability, his agility to get between the 50 arcs and his ability to be good below the knees, with sound skills and good kicking technique. How about Bevo plays him to these strengths instead of throwing him to the wolves.

So we should play him like Max King. Oh we can’t as we don’t have a ruckman that’s Bevo wants to play. Sam power come on down.

[azabob]

According to Cal Twomey from AFL.com.au back at the end of 2016 Nankervis was deciding between the tigers and the dogs.

I wonder if Nankervis had of chosen the dogs do we draft English?

[Grantysghost]

According to Cal Twomey from AFL.com.au back at the end of 2016 Nankervis was deciding between the tigers and the dogs.

I wonder if Nankervis had of chosen the dogs do we draft English?

After the flag?

[azabob]

After the flag?

Yeah end of 2016. We missed out on Nankervis when he went to Richmond and then we drafted English in the 2016 national draft.

[Grantysghost]

Yeah end of 2016. We missed out on Nankervis when he went to Richmond and then we drafted English in the 2016 national draft.

Amazing. We just won the lot and had the world at our feet and we still get rejected. Glad we got Tim though.

[bornadog]

Yeah end of 2016. We missed out on Nankervis when he went to Richmond and then we drafted English in the 2016 national draft.

I doubt we would have got Tim, as we had Tom at that stage and Roughy.

[Rocket Science]

Who's to say Nank wouldn't have gotten Trengoved though?

[Grantysghost]

Who's to say Nank wouldn't have gotten Trengoved though?

That's one of the best noun to verb conversions I've seen. And it's also a good point. They probably have similar GPS outputs.

[soupman]

Weird target. At the time we had both Campbell and Roughead fighting it out for the number one spot, with Boyd as adequate support. Unless we saw Nankervis leapfrogging those guys why would we get him?

[azabob]

Weird target. At the time we had both Campbell and Roughead fighting it out for the number one spot, with Boyd as adequate support. Unless we saw Nankervis leapfrogging those guys why would we get him?

Maybe we knew Campbell wasn’t up to it and wanted Boyd forward?

[The Pie Man]

Weird target. At the time we had both Campbell and Roughead fighting it out for the number one spot, with Boyd as adequate support. Unless we saw Nankervis leapfrogging those guys why would we get him?

Did we foresee Rough’s struggles without 3rd man up?

I remember Nank choosing Richmond, you can imagine he saw the greater opportunity to play seniors at Punt Rd.

How different would we look if he chose us?

[GVGjr]

Did we foresee Rough’s struggles without 3rd man up?

I remember Nank choosing Richmond, you can imagine he saw the greater opportunity to play seniors at Punt Rd.

How different would we look if he chose us?

I wonder if it was the fact that we recruited Cloke and had thrown a bucket load at Hurley as reasons why he thought opportunities with us were a bit more limited than they really were

[Happy Days]

I call bullshit on that. The Dogs are pretty much all I care about and I didn’t hear a thing about us getting Nank.

[The Pie Man]

I call bullshit on that. The Dogs are pretty much all I care about and I didn’t hear a thing about us getting Nank.

Sam Landsberger tweet 14/10/16

Why no progress on Toby Nankervis? The big bloke is holidaying overseas. Swans want to keep him, but Tigers and Dogs have prepared offers.

[Danjul]

I wonder if it was the fact that we recruited Cloke and had thrown a bucket load at Hurley as reasons why he thought opportunities with us were a bit more limited than they really were

Thanks for the reminder. Cloke was another proven non ruckman who failed in the ruck and Then disappears .

similarities between Cloke, Trengove, Boyd, Schache, Young, Campbell, Roughy.

A few games in the ruck seems to prevent having a long career at the Dogs.

[Happy Days]

Sam Landsberger tweet 14/10/16

Why no progress on Toby Nankervis? The big bloke is holidaying overseas. Swans want to keep him, but Tigers and Dogs have prepared offers.

You didn’t have to do me like that cuz :(

[The Pie Man]

You didn’t have to do me like that cuz :(

You can feel better knowing the one time (i.e just then) I had someone cold was on something this trivial :o

He played well in their semi in 16 and didn’t play again that year. Big what if

[bornadog]

Listened to Dodoro on trade Radio.

* gave nothing away about Dunkley, says he is contracted , so unfair to discuss.


"It's an awkward one, because when you're dealing with a contracted player it makes it hard. We do have an interest in Josh, we've had some preliminary chats with the Bulldogs. The Bulldogs are pretty resolute they want to keep him and we respect that"

* He admitted an approach was made, but Dogs said he is contracted.


"We are certainly asking the question... It is only the start of the trade period and anything happen can happen between now and next Thursday"

* Will continue to see if a deal can be reached.

The other interesting thing he said was the List managers are all assuming lists will be cut to 38, so they are working on that number.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Listened to Dodoro on trade Radio.

* gave nothing away about Dunkley, says he is contracted , so unfair to discuss.


* He admitted an approach was made, but Dogs said he is contracted.



* Will continue to see if a deal can be reached.

The other interesting thing he said was the List managers are all assuming lists will be cut to 38, so they are working on that number.
Yikes Dodo sounds more measured than the journos

[bornadog]

Yikes Dodo sounds more measured than the journos

He also denied he asked for several players from Port for Fantasia, who has a year left on his contract

[Bulldog Joe]

Yikes Dodo sounds more measured than the journos

That is a very low bar.

[Rocket Science]

Never mind we've been knocked back by half a dozen others ahead of you on our list but Big Stef, come on down.

https://i.ibb.co/Ss6D59S/Screen-Shot-2020-11-05-at-6-09-52-pm.png (https://ibb.co/RvgGYV8)

[Happy Days]

Never mind we've been knocked back by half a dozen others ahead of you on our list but Big Stef, come on down.

https://i.ibb.co/Ss6D59S/Screen-Shot-2020-11-05-at-6-09-52-pm.png (https://ibb.co/RvgGYV8)

That's not how you spell Goldstein :(

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Never mind we've been knocked back by half a dozen others ahead of you on our list but Big Stef, come on down.

https://i.ibb.co/Ss6D59S/Screen-Shot-2020-11-05-at-6-09-52-pm.png (https://ibb.co/RvgGYV8)

So uninspiring.

He's absolutely done.

I'd rather Ben Hudson.

[Rocket Science]

So uninspiring.

He's absolutely done.

I'd rather Ben Hudson.

Will confess as someone who's closely watched a bit of the Brissy renaissance under Fages, Stef's a good, cheap get and a perfect tutor for Tim.

Don't be swayed by his stop start 2020, he's the smart, physical beast we need in there and if we're satisfied he's not carrying anything debilitating he'll more than reward what little we'll pay for him.

[Happy Days]

He's gonna be 45 years old next year and is really not up to it any more. He's also useless anywhere but in the ruck.

This lack of public speculation on Goldstein is making me want to jump off my roof. And don't hit me with "how do you know we haven't asked" because we've been told to piss off on plenty of other old rucks and I haven't seen Goldstein mentioned once. We're clearly only committed to trying to do this on the cheap because of course we are.

[G-Mo77]

So Hannan and Martin in. Dunkley out.

[Grantysghost]

So Hannan and Martin in. Dunkley out.

Lonie. You missed Lonie.

[G-Mo77]

Lonie. You missed Lonie.

Oh him as well? Cool. Surely we could get someone else to make a full set of retreads.

[Sedat]

He's gonna be 45 years old next year and is really not up to it any more. He's also useless anywhere but in the ruck.

This lack of public speculation on Goldstein is making me want to jump off my roof. And don't hit me with "how do you know we haven't asked" because we've been told to piss off on plenty of other old rucks and I haven't seen Goldstein mentioned once. We're clearly only committed to trying to do this on the cheap because of course we are.
Stefan Martin would have been a brilliant get 3-4 years ago (he was only worth a pick 53 or something at the time) but he looks cooked now. I would honestly rather we ruck Bruce 70% of the time and instruct him to bash into the opposition ruckmen instead of bashing into Naughts in marking contests up forward.

I'm in seat 1A on your 'get Goldy' bandwagon but that is never going to happen because it makes too much sense and is not left-field enough.

[GVGjr]

I can see the sense in getting Martin and I'm not negative to this suggestion
It's a shame we didn't land him 5 years ago when we apparently asked about him, if he is fit enough he suits a need for us

[Bullies]

I can see the sense in getting Martin and I'm not negative to this suggestion
It's a shame we didn't land him 5 years ago when we apparently asked about him, if he is fit enough he suits a need for us
5 years ago he was agile. He looked shot this year.

[Rocket Science]

A season of this at negligible cost?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRKiKN7FrJU

Sign me up.

Further, we can't be shocked 'sexier' options have knocked us back given they're being enlisted to help school the bloke that's going to usurp them, as soon as humanly possible ideally.

[bornadog]

A season of this at negligible cost?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRKiKN7FrJU

Sign me up.

Further, we can't be shocked 'sexier' options have knocked us back given they're being enlisted to help school the bloke that's going to usurp them, as soon as humanly possible ideally.

What year was that?

[bornadog]

Well Well RC

Stefan Martin has agreed to join the Western Bulldogs, per @Stevo7AFL (https://twitter.com/Stevo7AFL)

[G-Mo77]

What year was that?

2019. We didn't see much of it this year. He'll be a slight upgrade over Trengove by 2021.

[bornadog]

2019. We didn't see much of it this year. He'll be a slight upgrade over Trengove by 2021.

He better get fit.

[GVGjr]

Martin will be a good option for us and he will get fit enough. English and Sweet will have a good mentor for a year or two

[comrade]

English gets to learn from an actual mature ruckman, I can handle that. He’s no Goldy but at least shows that the LM team has realised the ruck is a massive black hole on our list. Now we see if Bevo agrees.

[G-Mo77]

He better get fit.

Played 8 games this season. Missed most of the year with a stress fracture in his back. So yeah, we'll struggle to get a full season out of him.

[Rocket Science]

Martin's been a dead set workhorse for years in Brisbane, largely solo, he's an animal, it wasn't until this year he was hampered by a PCL and back issues he never really shrugged off.

If he's fit he instantly improves our stoppage game and affords Bevo the more aggressive / proactive look he's been pining for this year. He's also a model citizen.

This is the textbook definition of low risk, high reward.

Get around him boys and girls.

[bornadog]

Martin's been a dead set workhorse for years in Brisbane, largely solo, he's an animal, it wasn't until this year he was hampered by a PCL and back issues he never really shrugged off.

If he's fit he instantly improves our stoppage game and affords Bevo the more aggressive / proactive look he's been pining for this year. He's also a model citizen.

This is the textbook definition of low risk, high reward.

Get around him boys and girls.

I think a one year deal, plus coaching after that would be ideal

[The Underdog]

A season of this at negligible cost?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRKiKN7FrJU

Sign me up.

Further, we can't be shocked 'sexier' options have knocked us back given they're being enlisted to help school the bloke that's going to usurp them, as soon as humanly possible ideally.

That’s a weird looking Todd Goldstein.

[Rocket Science]

Played 8 games this season. Missed most of the year with a stress fracture in his back. So yeah, we'll struggle to get a full season out of him.

You missed the bit where he played 24, 22, 22, 20 and 20 the five years prior.

I'm guessing we don't even bother if we're not content he's beyond the niggles that hampered him this year.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I think a one year deal, plus coaching after that would be ideal
Two years playing if his form is good is ok with me

[Happy Days]

Great. Another half measure because its easier and no one has to admit they’re wrong. Hope he can teach English his bicep curl technique because Tim’s already a better ruckman.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I’m happy with Martin. He’s an experienced ruck who can chip English out but more importantly show him how it’s supposed to be done on the training track. We were never going to get a perfect option. They’re either too expensive to get or impossible to get. Goldstein would have been perfect but he would have cost a fortune by the sound of it. You would hope we asked though.

[bornadog]

That’s a weird looking Todd Goldstein.

Don't tell Happy Days, just tell him he is :D

[Happy Days]

This also means we probably won’t ask about Draper. Because that would involve work and trying to get an asset worth more than nothing when a half measure will do.

[G-Mo77]

You missed the bit where he played 24, 22, 22, 20 and 20 the five years prior.

I'm guessing we don't even bother if we're not content he's beyond the niggles that hampered him this year.

I'm not dead against it, just don't have high expectations especially considering the injury he's come back from at his age. People thinking our prayers have been answered need to dial it back a lot.

[bornadog]

I'm not dead against it, just don't have high expectations especially considering the injury he's come back from at his age. People thinking our prayers have been answered need to dial it back a lot.

Yeah he is not ideal, and I don't think he can do more that ruck these days, so will be on and off the bench

[soupman]

I did think Ryder was done when he went to the Saints and instead he had a good 2020, so I'm hopeful for Martin. How long have we signed him for though because anything more than one year is brave.

It does have a bit of a kicking the can down the road vibe though, is English gonna be a proper first ruck in a years time? Would've liked Goldstein for obvious reasons or for us to really make a long term play for someone like Peter Ladhams or Bailey Williams.

[Rocket Science]

Great. Another half measure because its easier and no one has to admit they’re wrong. Hope he can teach English his bicep curl technique because Tim’s already a better ruckman.

Am more than favourably predisposed to your 'half measures' ire - believe me - but Stef's not that guy.

Short of somehow dynamiting an ensconced first ruck out of somewhere, which ain't happening, this one makes rational sense.

If he gets/stays on the park I'm tipping we're pinching ourselves by round 6 at the looks he's giving our mids who finally have a ruckman who can offer them adequate service.

That alone bodes well.

[DOG GOD]

Seems like we can only get players from other clubs not required by their club. Hannan (who Melb wouldn’t care if they lost), Martin (who probably wouldn’t get a new contract with reduced lists), and Lonie (pushed out coz Higgins is a better player).

Great trading right there.

[bornadog]

Inside Trading: Dogs hunt Lion in limbo, (https://www.afl.com.au/news/523674/inside-trading-dogs-hunt-lion-in-limbo-tigers-hold-firm-on-jack)BRISBANE free agent Stefan Martin faces a decision on his future as the ruckman weighs interest from the Western Bulldogs.


Martin, who remains without a deal from the Lions as the free agency period draws to a close on Friday, has attracted interest from the Bulldogs who are searching for a ruck partner for Tim English.


The Dogs are looking for an experienced ruck to be alongside of English, having also asked the Hawks about the possibility of trading in Ben McEvoy.

Martin is one of 25 free agents who remain unsigned as the window nears its end

[anfo27]

Replacement for Dunks already!

[hujsh]

I'm happy to see this news. This place has been shouting for a mature second ruck to partner with English, looking over at Paddy Ryder and saying "why didn't we do that?" Then we get linked with a mature quality ruckman in a similar position to Ryder at the end of last year and the majority of responses seem to be bemoaning that we haven't either recruited Goldstein or paid overs for a young ruck to compete with English.

We've also apparently caved on Dunkley already (with one person charmingly saying we'd get raped).

I don't mean to tell everyone they need to pretend everything is hunky dory at the club but the regular threads are reading more and more like the game day threads. I think I've read more Dunkley rucking jokes than I've seen him take ruck contests now.

[1eyedog]

What year was that?

At least 2019 or earlier.

[Rocket Science]

At least 2019 or earlier.

It's from 12 months ago.

[1eyedog]

I like Martin he's a good option. Sure he would have been good 5 years ago but he can ruck, is a professional so will turn up fit and will break even against good opposition. Solid in.

[bulldogtragic]

I've not watched any footy this year, so substitute a name if need be.

1. Dunkley for Pick 7 or 8 & Hurley (Essendon pays 1/2 his salary, about $400,000 a season). At least 3 years of footy in him. KPD.
2. Pick 14 for AMT (Essendon pays $200,000 for two seasons). 27yo and 100 games. Coming into his prime.
3. Pick 8 to Brisbane for Picks 18 & 19 or Pick 8 & 41 for Adelaide's picks 22, 23 & 30.
4. Points to cover JUH and MacPherson & Raak if they're on the radar. With JUH at Pick 2 or later. (Twomey thinks Pick 4)
5. Get in on the Ben Brown trade with Melbourne & North. Young to North, Hannan to Dogs. Pick 26 for Brown.
6. Seems a fringe or aging ruck is a thing. Say Martin.

Summary: Dunkley & Young - for - AMT, Hurley, Hannan, plus cash, plus more points to take all the Priority Access Kids (KPF, KPD, Mid) without deficit.

List:

Anticipate Libba, Smith, McLean & Lippa can cover Dunkley. Plus West & MacPherson longer term.

Anticipate English more forward plus AMT and Hannan bring something new to the forwardline. Does it allow Naughton, Schache or Bruce to play back if needed.

Anticipate Hurley, Young, Keath & Cordy (Wood & Crozier in the air) with any of the above KPFs can cover things nicely with rebound.

Not having watched any games, does this sound like a strategy to go further in finals against the sides above?

2021: With the first rounder in tact, and hopefully some spare salary cap, aggressively trade next year (&/or free agents).

Turn the losses of Dunkley & Young into a strategy to bring in mature talent in other areas of the ground. Wind up the premiership clock a bit, while elite talent banking for the future.

BUT, if Dodoro doesn't want to win Trade Week (by giving up players we've had recent interest in and a good pick swap) before then Dunkley can stay. But with Daniher & Fantasia's trade value declining from last year's offers, plus Saad walking out among other players. Dodoro to me needs this trade, in part, to keep his job. Essendon seem to be cleaning out dead wood, so Power might want to remind him how to apply for job seeker if he wants to hold out.


To be honest we've been accumulating inside midfielders and HBFs for too long. So players were going to want out for more opportunities or other. So Young & Dunkley forcing us into balancing out the list is something of a good thing if that's what happens. The last time a gun midfielder wanted out, whilst under contract, it forced us into making a bold trade that won a flag. And better yet, we've got a much better negotiator in place now. I read he is annoyed he was rucking and playing forward. So if that's the plan ahead to keep doing it, what we are losing I figure is less. So if we can get a friendly players based deal, we might net more in other needed roles. But don't listen to me, I freely admit I have no idea about where things are at. But I see a scenario where this could give us a great opportunity.

[soupman]

Way to ease yourself back in BT. Good to have you back.

[1eyedog]

I've not watched any footy this year, so substitute a name if need be.

1. Dunkley for Pick 7 or 8 & Hurley (Essendon pays 1/2 his salary, about $400,000 a season). At least 3 years of footy in him. KPD.
2. Pick 14 for AMT (Essendon pays $200,000 for two seasons). 27yo and 100 games. Coming into his prime.
3. Pick 8 to Brisbane for Picks 18 & 19 or Pick 8 & 41 for Adelaide's picks 22, 23 & 30.
4. Points to cover JUH and MacPherson & Raak if they're on the radar. With JUH at Pick 2 or later. (Twomey thinks Pick 4)
5. Get in on the Ben Brown trade with Melbourne & North. Young to North, Hannan to Dogs. Pick 26 for Brown.
6. Seems a fringe or aging ruck is a thing. Say Martin.

Summary: Dunkley & Young - for - AMT, Hurley, Hannan, plus cash, plus more points to take all the Priority Access Kids (KPF, KPD, Mid) without deficit.

List:

Anticipate Libba, Smith, McLean & Lippa can cover Dunkley. Plus West & MacPherson longer term.

Anticipate English more forward plus AMT and Hannan bring something new to the forwardline. Does it allow Naughton, Schache or Bruce to play back if needed.

Anticipate Hurley, Young, Keath & Cordy (Wood & Crozier in the air) with any of the above KPFs can cover things nicely with rebound.

Not having watched any games, does this sound like a strategy to go further in finals against the sides above?

2021: With the first rounder in tact, and hopefully some spare salary cap, aggressively trade next year (&/or free agents).

Turn the losses of Dunkley & Young into a strategy to bring in mature talent in other areas of the ground. Wind up the premiership clock a bit, while elite talent banking for the future.

BUT, if Dodoro doesn't want to win Trade Week (by giving up players we've had recent interest in and a good pick swap) before then Dunkley can stay. But with Daniher & Fantasia's trade value declining from last year's offers, plus Saad walking out among other players. Dodoro to me needs this trade, in part, to keep his job. Essendon seem to be cleaning out dead wood, so Power might want to remind him how to apply for job seeker if he wants to hold out.


To be honest we've been accumulating inside midfielders and HBFs for too long. So players were going to want out for more opportunities or other. So Young & Dunkley forcing us into balancing out the list is something of a good thing if that's what happens. The last time a gun midfielder wanted out, whilst under contract, it forced us into making a bold trade that won a flag. And better yet, we've got a much better negotiator in place now. I read he is annoyed he was rucking and playing forward. So if that's the plan ahead to keep doing it, what we are losing I figure is less. So if we can get a friendly players based deal, we might net more in other needed roles. But don't listen to me, I freely admit I have no idea about where things are at. But I see a scenario where this could give us a great opportunity.

Make it happen BT.

[GVGjr]

It's been a tough, tough year and we are running the risk of losing one of our midfield bulls but with BT back on WOOF I'm going to sleep a bit easier tonight

Great to have to back BT

[SonofScray]

BT - fantastic post.

Re: Martin, at 34 its odd but honestly, I'm all for it. We really need a piece of meat in there that we can absolutely flog the crap out of and not be too worried about breaking him.

[jazzadogs]

Welcome back BT. This thread in particular has had far too many short posts, and not enough 10 paragraph deep dives into the worth of pick 46 in a 4-team trade.

I'll be disappointed if the trade we hold out for is Hurley and pick 8.

[bulldogtragic]

BT - fantastic post.

Re: Martin, at 34 its odd but honestly, I'm all for it. We really need a piece of meat in there that we can absolutely flog the crap out of and not be too worried about breaking him.

I think it's the price the club might like. I don't know if he spent much time forward, but Tim's marking around the ground and forward might be an X-factor if there's someone else getting smashed in the ruck. Again, maybe the balance of improvements by shuffling players might be an area for rapid growth. Bruce & Naughton are around for the long term with Tim. How did my boy Schache do this year?

[Grantysghost]

I like the Martin move. He’s a quality player, and hopefully we get a good year or two out of him. Be really beneficial for English. From what I hear he’s a bit of a strong man too, might still hold some bench press records down at Demonland.

[GVGjr]

I don't put a lot of faith into having Hurley at our club, he let us down badly when we tried to bring him in 4 years ago and he clearly used us to leverage more money out of Essendon. He's probably still a decent footballer but he's also not the player he was 4 years ago.

Ironically it's Essendon offering more money for Dunks

[bulldogtragic]

Welcome back BT. This thread in particular has had far too many short posts, and not enough 10 paragraph deep dives into the worth of pick 46 in a 4-team trade.

I'll be disappointed if the trade we hold out for is Hurley and pick 8.

But the salary cap is the kicker in my mind. We open up what wasn't spent on Jack Martin, plus this year's delistings, plus Dunkley's wage freed up and a half price Hurley. This cap next year tops up Bontempelli resigning long term and also for a decent free agent or together with our traded first rounder, means that Essendon's covering of salary cap allows us to pursue a very good player next year. Them covering this cap is key to finding extra value in such a trade.m

Plus if we had Brisbane lined up for 8 for 18 & 19. That’s now Dunkley for late first rounders, Hurley & salary cap.

[hujsh]

I've not watched any footy this year, so substitute a name if need be.

1. Dunkley for Pick 7 or 8 & Hurley (Essendon pays 1/2 his salary, about $400,000 a season). At least 3 years of footy in him. KPD.
2. Pick 14 for AMT (Essendon pays $200,000 for two seasons). 27yo and 100 games. Coming into his prime.
3. Pick 8 to Brisbane for Picks 18 & 19 or Pick 8 & 41 for Adelaide's picks 22, 23 & 30.
4. Points to cover JUH and MacPherson & Raak if they're on the radar. With JUH at Pick 2 or later. (Twomey thinks Pick 4)
5. Get in on the Ben Brown trade with Melbourne & North. Young to North, Hannan to Dogs. Pick 26 for Brown.
6. Seems a fringe or aging ruck is a thing. Say Martin.

Summary: Dunkley & Young - for - AMT, Hurley, Hannan, plus cash, plus more points to take all the Priority Access Kids (KPF, KPD, Mid) without deficit.

List:

Anticipate Libba, Smith, McLean & Lippa can cover Dunkley. Plus West & MacPherson longer term.

Anticipate English more forward plus AMT and Hannan bring something new to the forwardline. Does it allow Naughton, Schache or Bruce to play back if needed.

Anticipate Hurley, Young, Keath & Cordy (Wood & Crozier in the air) with any of the above KPFs can cover things nicely with rebound.

Not having watched any games, does this sound like a strategy to go further in finals against the sides above?

2021: With the first rounder in tact, and hopefully some spare salary cap, aggressively trade next year (&/or free agents).

Turn the losses of Dunkley & Young into a strategy to bring in mature talent in other areas of the ground. Wind up the premiership clock a bit, while elite talent banking for the future.

BUT, if Dodoro doesn't want to win Trade Week (by giving up players we've had recent interest in and a good pick swap) before then Dunkley can stay. But with Daniher & Fantasia's trade value declining from last year's offers, plus Saad walking out among other players. Dodoro to me needs this trade, in part, to keep his job. Essendon seem to be cleaning out dead wood, so Power might want to remind him how to apply for job seeker if he wants to hold out.


To be honest we've been accumulating inside midfielders and HBFs for too long. So players were going to want out for more opportunities or other. So Young & Dunkley forcing us into balancing out the list is something of a good thing if that's what happens. The last time a gun midfielder wanted out, whilst under contract, it forced us into making a bold trade that won a flag. And better yet, we've got a much better negotiator in place now. I read he is annoyed he was rucking and playing forward. So if that's the plan ahead to keep doing it, what we are losing I figure is less. So if we can get a friendly players based deal, we might net more in other needed roles. But don't listen to me, I freely admit I have no idea about where things are at. But I see a scenario where this could give us a great opportunity.

https://i.ibb.co/SVKHtms/Gandolf-the-White-1.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[soupman]

I'll be disappointed if the trade we hold out for is Hurley and pick 8.

Me too.

We should really be pushing for two first rounders (Shiel was worth that with a second rounder going the other way, Dunkley is younger, has shown an ability to play to a higher standard and is contracted).

I would be reluctant to target any Essendon guys, even separately as BT has done with AMT. Dodoro is going to roll them into the Dunkley trade and we have enough of a fight on our hands making sure he doesn't undervalue our player without having to worry about him overvaluing his own. If Dodoro was trading $20 to us for $20 he would rate his as worth $25 and ours as worth $15. I don't want to have to deal with that shit any more than we have to.

Also I do not like Hurley and dont think he is the improvement we need.

[SonofScray]

I don't put a lot of faith into having Hurley at our club, he let us down badly when we tried to bring him in 4 years ago and he clearly used us to leverage more money out of Essendon. He's probably still a decent footballer but he's also not the player he was 4 years ago.

Ironically it's Essendon offering more money for Dunks
Hurley missed the boat with us I feel. Not interested in what he has to offer over the next two years. Falling away very quickly and doesn't look like the player I hoped we'd be getting just after the flag.

[bornadog]

I think it's the price the club might like. I don't know if he spent much time forward, but Tim's marking around the ground and forward might be an X-factor if there's someone else getting smashed in the ruck. Again, maybe the balance of improvements by shuffling players might be an area for rapid growth. Bruce & Naughton are around for the long term with Tim. How did my boy Schache do this year?

Great to have you back - really missed your contribution.

Schache only played a couple of games. Was out of form, plus had several injuries - Concussion, Groin and calf. In a short season didn't help.

Do we really want Hurley?

[bulldogtragic]

Great to have you back - really missed your contribution.

Schache only played a couple of games. Was out of form, plus had several injuries - Concussion, Groin and calf. In a short season didn't help.

Do we really want Hurley?

I went with a player we’ve done due diligence on, a role we won’t have heaps of and was a former AA. I really don’t know to be honest. I watched 15 seconds at the end of the GCS game where Gowers butchered it and then I vowed the season off.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Apparently we've signed Stef Martin according to The Age.

Not my idea of support for Tim, but it's better than nothing I suppose?

[bulldogtragic]

Apparently we've signed Stef Martin according to The Age.

Not my idea of support for Tim, but it's better than nothing I suppose?

Is Sweet still a longer term option, or does this push him out?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is Sweet still a longer term option, or does this push him out?

Who knows - we didn't get a look at Sweet this year.

I suspect he stays on the list but I don't think we rate him. If he couldn't get a game this year when English, at times, played forward while our mids rucked then it's hard to see that changing next year or beyond.

[jeemak]

Double.

[Axe Man]

I haven’t taken much notice of Hurley over the past couple of years but my Essendon mate would be only too happy to offload him in a Dunkley deal. That suggests to me he’s cooked, fans never want to give away good players.

[jeemak]

Who actually asked if we should chase Martin in the first place anyway?

[Axe Man]

Who actually asked if we should chase Martin in the first place anyway?

You putting your hand up for this one too J? ;)

[Twodogs]

Make me a Bulldog-Stef Martin is trending all over Twitter.

[divvydan]

All I want from Stef is to force English to be physically stronger in the ruck. If he can teach him that, or throw English around in training until he works it out, that'll be enough for me.

[bulldogtragic]

Thinking laterally.

Twomey thinks JUH gets nominated at Pick 4.

We demand Pick 6 & 42 and a player (AMT etc) from Essendon.

We offer Sydney 6 & 14 for their Pick 3 & 58.

According to ESPN, Pick 3, that’s Elijah Hollands, gun mid.

JUH gets nominated at 4. We match it for 1,600 draft points.

We are around 500 points in deficit say Raak & MacPherson take us to 1,000-1,300 points in deficit. If we trade out any other players that gets lower. This will wipe out our 2021 1st rounder. Say that’s pick 15 or so. But we pick up Pick 3 this year.

In: JUH, Hollands, MacPherson, Raak, (Hannan, Martin, AMT etc)
Out: Young, Dunkley, 2021 First Rounder


If Sydney are into it of course.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Thinking laterally.

Twomey thinks JUH gets nominated at Pick 4.

We demand Pick 6 & 42 and a player (AMT etc) from Essendon.

We offer Sydney 6 & 14 for their Pick 3 & 58.

According to ESPN, Pick 3, that’s Elijah Hollands, gun mid.

JUH gets nominated at 4. We match it for 1,600 draft points.

We are around 500 points in deficit say Raak & MacPherson take us to 1,000-1,300 points in deficit. If we trade out any other players that gets lower. This will wipe out our 2021 1st rounder. Say that’s pick 15 or so. But we pick up Pick 3 this year.

In: JUH, Hollands, MacPherson, Raak, (Hannan, Martin, AMT etc)
Out: Young, Dunkley, 2021 First Rounder


If Sydney are into it of course.

The only problem is I think the Crows, in particular, are vindictive enough to jump at JUH with pick 1 if it would mean we had a pick 3 or whatever chewed up.

To be fair it means that it leaves an extra gun on the table when it reaches their pick 8.

[GVGjr]

Apparently we've signed Stef Martin according to The Age.

Not my idea of support for Tim, but it's better than nothing I suppose?


Is Sweet still a longer term option, or does this push him out?

A proper ruckman working all year with our two emerging rucks. Perhaps not 100% ideal but I see it as a positive

[Bullies]

The only problem is I think the Crows, in particular, are vindictive enough to jump at JUH with pick 1 if it would mean we had a pick 3 or whatever chewed up.

To be fair it means that it leaves an extra gun on the table when it reaches their pick 8. Doesn't look good on the Crows if they select a player as number 1 they are not going to get. Not a good sell to their supporters to say we had the 1st pick and got the 2nd best player.

[comrade]

Out: Dunkley
In: BT

[GVGjr]

The only problem is I think the Crows, in particular, are vindictive enough to jump at JUH with pick 1 if it would mean we had a pick 3 or whatever chewed up.

To be fair it means that it leaves an extra gun on the table when it reaches their pick 8.

If they hand us pick one and the marketing opportunities for the club that come with that then great.
I understand the points impact but it would give us a lot opportunities to say we got the player the rest of the competition wanted

There is a at least one player that should be rated ahead of Ugle-Hagan and possibly another one as well but if he slides down the order just a bit then that's great for us as well

It's a win win scenario to me

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The only problem is I think the Crows, in particular, are vindictive enough to jump at JUH with pick 1 if it would mean we had a pick 3 or whatever chewed up.

To be fair it means that it leaves an extra gun on the table when it reaches their pick 8.

We could do the Sydney deal on draft night, after 1st two picks have gone down?

[bulldogtragic]

We could do the Sydney deal on draft night, after 1st two picks have gone down?

Yes. But we’d need a contingency to live trade out 6 (& 14 possibly). This thought bubble is basically what GWS did pre-draft 2016 with grabbing Taranto before matching Setterfield at Pick 5 to get ahead of the nomination. As well as getting Ash in the top 4 picks before matching a bid on Tom Green in the top 10 last year. I don’t see Crows or North bidding with 1 & 2.

I guess it shows we could trade down to make up points, or trade up and plunder the top 4 draft picks (while losing some players and 2021 first). Interesting to see how Power sees our hand.

[Mofra]

The only problem is I think the Crows, in particular, are vindictive enough to jump at JUH with pick 1 if it would mean we had a pick 3 or whatever chewed up.

To be fair it means that it leaves an extra gun on the table when it reaches their pick 8.
Yep, it's too high risk for mine. North at pick 2 would bid too in that scenario

[bulldogtragic]

Yep, it's too high risk for mine. North at pick 2 would bid too in that scenario

I just don't see Adelaide or North bidding. They desperately need good news stories. But if that was to happen, we'd have preliminary discussions and have 5 minutes to live trade Pick 3 to the highest bidder. That could be huge (would/could Brisbane part with their two late 1st rounders this year and a future late First, for Pick 3. That covers all our kids and gives us then two first rounders next year. Similarly, GWS if they have Picks 10 & 15 (Cameron trade?) and a Future First for Picks 3.) JUH at Pick 2 is 2,000 draft points needed. These trades cover the points most likely for all the Priority Access kids.

a) Two of the best 4 kids.
b) Pick 3 auctioned off after a bid at Pick 2. Priority Access kids all secured and two first rounders in 2021.

I think it's worth exploring the more I think about it.


Edit: It sounds like Freo are now looking to trade into North's pick 2 to land WA forward Logan McDonald. If Adelaide don't bid on JUH, which is my guess, then Freo won't bid on JUH having traded up to get McDonald. If both those things happen, then a scenario where we trade into Pick 3 could secure us two of the top 4 players this draft. Interesting space to watch.

[Twodogs]

Stupid question but are Raak and MacPherson in this year's draft?

Where is Raak projected to go?

[comrade]

Stupid question but are Raak and MacPherson in this year's draft?

Where is Raak projected to go?

Yes.

Both aren't rated in the first 40-50 prospects by the wider footy media.

[Axe Man]

Yes.

Both aren't rated in the first 40-50 prospects by the wider footy media.

Pure guesswork from me but Macpherson may attract a bid late in the draft, but I doubt Raak gets bid on at all and hopefully we should just be able to add him as a rookie like Khamis (if we want him).

[ledge]

Pure guesswork from me but Macpherson may attract a bid late in the draft, but I doubt Raak gets bid on at all and hopefully we should just be able to add him as a rookie like Khamis (if we want him).

Raak will be very low I imagine , as I pointed out before I can’t even find any highlights of him.
Rookie I think.
McPherson has more media coverage but do we need him with what we have ?
A bit like his brother we had too much the same with higher skills to pick him.

[KT31]

Its all quite on the Hamling front, anyone have an inkling as to what is happening there ?

[Rocket Science]

Purple suddenly doesn't think Brisbane should be so eager to let Martin leave so now we *definitely* must make this happen.

[kruder]

Imagine a forward line of Naughty, JUH and Stevo dam it would be exciting to watch.

My big concern about bringing in Treloar and Stevo for example if we loose Dunks is that they are both poor defensively. After watching the finals this year pressure is still the one wood there is no doubt about it, our side was incredibly poor in this area across the year.

How do we get the balance right? Would woofers have the guts to bring in a guy like Stevo?(I dont think it would have to hinge on the dunks trade at all)

[comrade]

Not a fan of what Treloar offers - dodgy disposal, dodgy hammy & dodgy contract. I think we have enough personnel to make a good fist at covering Dunkley (West, Lippa, Jong for example) that we don't need to sell the farm on someone with huge question marks over him.

Would rather go hard at a key defender, small forward or a truly game changing mid.

[Happy Days]

I...do not hate Treloar in. Despite Collingwood's Giuliani-style hatchet job on his reputation he's actually good as hell, and think that he's a much better compliment to our midfield than Dunkley, albeit likely not as good a player (and five years older). I think we could get him independently of the Dunkley deal; if they're actually interested on Dale and we have the cap room then that might be enough.

As always do not check my post history.

[bornadog]

Just a reminder on Treloar


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoO_BuJv3bQ&ab_channel=CollingwoodFootballClub

[Axe Man]

Imagine a forward line of Naughty, JUH and Stevo dam it would be exciting to watch.

My big concern about bringing in Treloar and Stevo for example if we loose Dunks is that they are both poor defensively. After watching the finals this year pressure is still the one wood there is no doubt about it, our side was incredibly poor in this area across the year.

How do we get the balance right? Would woofers have the guts to bring in a guy like Stevo?(I dont think it would have to hinge on the dunks trade at all)

Do you have any evidence to back this up or just a feeling? I don't think our pressure was generally incredibly poor. I think we had lapses in games that were costly but generally we brought the heat and mostly our opponents couldn't just do as they pleased. To say our pressure was incredibly poor is to call into question the effort of the players and I think most of the time the effort was there.

[comrade]

I...do not hate Treloar in. Despite Collingwood's Giuliani-style hatchet job on his reputation he's actually good as hell, and think that he's a much better compliment to our midfield than Dunkley, albeit likely not as good a player (and five years older). I think we could get him independently of the Dunkley deal; if they're actually interested on Dale and we have the cap room then that might be enough.

As always do not check my post history.

I'd be happy to bring in Treloar if it meant using a pick later than 25. If we are flush with assets after trading Dunkley, I want to use them on players who will transform our structure.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Treloar is being underrated CRIMINALLY.

He is a better player than Dunkley. He's what we want Smith to be.

Blistering pace and the will to CARRY the ball through the lines is what we need more of. He's a 'surge' player and the last time I checked, that's how we play footy when we are playing well. Dunkley/Macrae/Libba/Lippa and even Bont don't break lines. We rely so much on Smith and JJ to do this. Daniel does it in a more methodical way, but Treloar cuts through zones and takes space.

I get that his contract is a concern and that would need be a huge consideration. How much can Collingwood cover? Is it even possible to rip up the old contract and re-do it? Would Adam entertain that (rightfully no)?

Either way, I would be astounded if we aren't speaking to him. Our midfield is not as good as we think it is.

[bornadog]

Treloar is being underrated CRIMINALLY.

He is a better player than Dunkley. He's what we want Smith to be.

Blistering pace and the will to CARRY the ball through the lines is what we need more of. He's a 'surge' player and the last time I checked, that's how we play footy when we are playing well. Dunkley/Macrae/Libba/Lippa and even Bont don't break lines. We rely so much on Smith and JJ to do this. Daniel does it in a more methodical way, but Treloar cuts through zones and takes space.

I get that his contract is a concern and that would need be a huge consideration. How much can Collingwood cover? Is it even possible to rip up the old contract and re-do it? Would Adam entertain that (rightfully no)?

Either way, I would be astounded if we aren't speaking to him. Our midfield is not as good as we think it is.

Completely agree with this. Power hasn't ruled Treloar out

[bornadog]

Power on trade radio:

* "We've met with all the clubs and been open about the fact we're willing to trade pick 14"* "We'll definitely monitor the Adam Treloar situation"
* "We've got some interest in Stef Martin... we need some more support in that position... there is some interest in that, absolutely"

* "It's really encouraging that Mitch Hannan has indicated he wants to come to the Dogs, but we've got a bit to work through there"

On Dunkley

* "We haven't put an extension in front of Josh Dunkley, no"

* Luke Beveridge has had conversations with Josh Dunkley about giving him more of that midfield time Essendon are offering him

* "I've had a couple of chats with Adrian Dodoro, but at this stage they've been very low level discussions"

* Did Josh Dunkley requesting a trade blindside the Dogs?


"Yeah, it did to be honest"

* "Our priority is to keep Josh Dunkley... we have to be open to different situations given he has said he wants to go to Essendon, but our preference is to keep him"

[comrade]

Based on Power's comments, I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Treloar at the Dogs.

[kruder]

Do you have any evidence to back this up or just a feeling? I don't think our pressure was generally incredibly poor. I think we had lapses in games that were costly but generally we brought the heat and mostly our opponents couldn't just do as they pleased. To say our pressure was incredibly poor is to call into question the effort of the players and I think most of the time the effort was there.

41 tackles in a final isn't good enough, we got bullied the year before also against GWS. How many over the back goals occur? That has been structure but also significantly pressure again at the source. I remember hearing on FOX the doggies are in the lower half of the pressure rating.

[kruder]

Based on Power's comments, I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Treloar at the Dogs.

Sounded like he was giving Essendon a carrot to start working their asses off on Dunks.

[Doc26]

Thinking laterally.

Twomey thinks JUH gets nominated at Pick 4.

We demand Pick 6 & 42 and a player (AMT etc) from Essendon.

We offer Sydney 6 & 14 for their Pick 3 & 58.

According to ESPN, Pick 3, that’s Elijah Hollands, gun mid.

JUH gets nominated at 4. We match it for 1,600 draft points.

We are around 500 points in deficit say Raak & MacPherson take us to 1,000-1,300 points in deficit. If we trade out any other players that gets lower. This will wipe out our 2021 1st rounder. Say that’s pick 15 or so. But we pick up Pick 3 this year.

In: JUH, Hollands, MacPherson, Raak, (Hannan, Martin, AMT etc)
Out: Young, Dunkley, 2021 First Rounder


If Sydney are into it of course.

First time I've liked a post without even reading it. Just love that BT is back in town working his magic. The world is starting to feel more normal again.

[soupman]

I've made my thoughts pretty clear on Treloar elsewhere (I do not want him) but additionally can we not bail Collingwood out of the situation they've put themselves in? They've overcommitted to a bunch of blokes, including the idiotic decision to grab Beams, now they are in a situation where they are forcing out a guy they headhunted a few years ago and got to backend his contract to help them out and now that it's their turn to repay the favour they have decided they'd rather not.

Why should we help them out by taking on Treloars stupidly big contract (or Stephensons, or Coxs, or Phillips, all players they seem happy to lose for a reason) and then putting ourselves under cap pressure?

If we were gonna help them it should have been by taking one of the guys they wanna keep, like Moore or Daicos, except they have already re signed them. I'd propose grabbing one of their really promising young guys but the only one i like is Quaynor.

Instead of grabbing someone who we might be able to make work but doesn't really improve us how about we just leave them in the mess they have created?

[bornadog]

41 tackles in a final isn't good enough, we got bullied the year before also against GWS. How many over the back goals occur? That has been structure but also significantly pressure again at the source. I remember hearing on FOX the doggies are in the lower half of the pressure rating.

Saints had 32 tackles

[Axe Man]

Saints had 32 tackles

Whilst we also had slightly more of the ball.

[Vred]

More I think about it the more I like Treloar and Stephenson at the dogs. All hinges on how much salary Collingwood is willing to pay, we must sign Bont and Smith on long term deals.

[bornadog]

Listen to Power on trade radio here. (https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=754851)

[Mitcha]

Ferg told he was out earlier today. Disappointing he didn't get a run this season. Some interest from others.

[Happy Days]

Ferg :(

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Ferg told he was out earlier today. Disappointing he didn't get a run this season. Some interest from others.

Yeah I get the interest too.. I know its been frustating with his injuries, but I'd have kept him before a few others that may get a reprieve

[comrade]

Shame, as he definitely had some talent. Hard to understand why he didn't get a crack this season to show what he was capable of.

[Rocket Science]

Just musing ahead ... are we better?

B: CROZIER - KEATH - JOHANNISEN
HB: WILLIAMS - GARDNER - DANIEL
C: HUNTER - MACRAE - TRELOAR
HF: SMITH - NAUGHTON - VANDERMEER
F: WALLIS - BRUCE - HANNAN
Mids: ENGLISH - BONTEMPELLI - LIBERATORE
Int from: MARTIN - WOOD - RICHARDS - DURYEA - CORDY - JONG - LIPINSKI - WEST

We're still drowning in mids and back flankers at the expense of other areas though depending on how we play it the Dunkley sitch presents an opportunity to rebalance things if we choose.

To that end, think we're better served with Tippa over Treloar ...

B: CROZIER - KEATH - JOHANNISEN
HB: WILLIAMS - GARDNER - DANIEL
C: HUNTER - MACRAE - SMITH
HF: VANDERMEER - NAUGHTON - MCDONALD-TIPUNGWUTI
F: WALLIS - BRUCE - HANNAN
Mids: ENGLISH - BONTEMPELLI - LIBERATORE
Int from: MARTIN - WOOD - RICHARDS - DURYEA - CORDY - JONG - LIPINSKI - WEST

Hannan irks me but we're hardly going to grab him then not play him.

[SquirrelGrip]

Sounded like he was giving Essendon a carrot to start working their asses off on Dunks.

I wonder if the Dodos could also pay part of Treloar’s salary for us in addition to Collingwood’s share?

[1eyedog]

Imagine a forward line of Naughty, JUH and Stevo dam it would be exciting to watch.

My big concern about bringing in Treloar and Stevo for example if we loose Dunks is that they are both poor defensively. After watching the finals this year pressure is still the one wood there is no doubt about it, our side was incredibly poor in this area across the year.

How do we get the balance right? Would woofers have the guts to bring in a guy like Stevo?(I dont think it would have to hinge on the dunks trade at all)

JS is a liability on the field, gets to the best spots to be Joe the Goose. I also played cricket against him and will be a big risk off-field as well. I'm not sure I want JS and Hunter in the same space.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I've made my thoughts pretty clear on Treloar elsewhere (I do not want him) but additionally can we not bail Collingwood out of the situation they've put themselves in? They've overcommitted to a bunch of blokes, including the idiotic decision to grab Beams, now they are in a situation where they are forcing out a guy they headhunted a few years ago and got to backend his contract to help them out and now that it's their turn to repay the favour they have decided they'd rather not.

Why should we help them out by taking on Treloars stupidly big contract (or Stephensons, or Coxs, or Phillips, all players they seem happy to lose for a reason) and then putting ourselves under cap pressure?

If we were gonna help them it should have been by taking one of the guys they wanna keep, like Moore or Daicos, except they have already re signed them. I'd propose grabbing one of their really promising young guys but the only one i like is Quaynor.

Instead of grabbing someone who we might be able to make work but doesn't really improve us how about we just leave them in the mess they have created?

Ultimately it boils down to how you rate our mids. For mine, ours are overrated as a collective group evidenced by recent big games where they've been soundly beaten. Whilst this is tied to our ruck situation, the mids have to take some responsibility too - some of the performances in the last 12-18 months have been diabolical from such a talented group.

It's been clear for a while our mids are 'too similar' - not enough line breaking and players who are prepared to take space / take the positive option. Macrae, Hunter and Dunkley don't hurt sides by foot - despite all being great players in their own right. The fact that we rely so heavily on Smith is a problem, particularly given he's so young. We need a better balance.

Bont, Macrae and Hunter are elite. Libba is elite but getting on / one injury away from his career being done. I don't rate Lippa, Hayes, Jong etc. and West is a pup.

We have holes in multiple areas but the mid is one of them.

Treloar improves our dynamic significantly

[bornadog]

Dogs dealing with list uncertainty (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/833800/dogs-dealing-with-list-uncertainty)

Uncertainty around AFL list sizes for next season will mean the Western Bulldogs have a bit to work through over the coming weeks as they look to finalise their list for 2021.

Fifteen players remain out of contract, ( I wish Axeman would let us know) including three who played in the elimination final loss to St Kilda – Taylor Duryea, Ryan Gardner and Roarke Smith.

Former skipper Easton Wood is the only player to have signed a new deal since the end of the season, inking a two-year contract extension.

Bulldogs’ list boss Sam Power said it was a difficult period for those players left waiting.

“It adds a level of complexity to it,” Power said of the list size uncertainty.

“Mainly from an uncontracted player point of view, that the guys unfortunately have to sit out (of contract) for a little bit longer which is really difficult for them.

“Also (in terms of) pick swaps or bringing players in, not having that 100 per cent clarity does make it a bit difficult and very different to what’s been the case in previous years.”

The Bulldogs will look to bolster their list in this year’s trade period, according to Power.

Melbourne forward Mitch Hannan has indicated his desire to join the club, as the Bulldogs weigh up options to add to their existing group.

Adding another layer to that will be accumulating the right draft picks – and points – to ensure a bid can be matched for Next Generation Academy talent Jamarra Ugle-Hagan.

“We’re always looking to improve our list and bring in players that we feel add to what we already have,” Power said.

“Also this year we’ve got some points considerations with an Academy prospect, so that potentially impacts picks that we have and what we might be looking to do from a pick swap point of view.”

[Vred]

Ferg told he was out earlier today. Disappointing he didn't get a run this season. Some interest from others.

This pisses me off, Ferg was showing real good talent this year in the scratch matches

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Ultimately it boils down to how you rate our mids. For mine, ours are overrated as a collective group evidenced by recent big games where they've been soundly beaten. Whilst this is tied to our ruck situation, the mids have to take some responsibility too - some of the performances in the last 12-18 months have been diabolical from such a talented group.

It's been clear for a while our mids are 'too similar' - not enough line breaking and players who are prepared to take space / take the positive option. Macrae, Hunter and Dunkley don't hurt sides by foot - despite all being great players in their own right. The fact that we rely so heavily on Smith is a problem, particularly given he's so young. We need a better balance.

Bont, Macrae and Hunter are elite. Libba is elite but getting on / one injury away from his career being done. I don't rate Lippa, Hayes, Jong etc. and West is a pup.

We have holes in multiple areas but the mid is one of them.

Treloar improves our dynamic significantly

Ok Treloar has burst speed. But he isn't a great kick and he also goes completely missing in games when the chips are down. So aside from some burst speed he doesn't really provide us with much of a difference. I'm all for adding him on the cheap (both trade and salary wise) because the Pies are desperate to get rid of him but if we're simply talking Dunkley for Treloar and bunch of picks then I won't be happy.

[soupman]

It's been clear for a while our mids are 'too similar' - not enough line breaking and players who are prepared to take space / take the positive option. Macrae, Hunter and Dunkley don't hurt sides by foot - despite all being great players in their own right. The fact that we rely so heavily on Smith is a problem, particularly given he's so young. We need a better balance.

You have seen Treloar play yeah?

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I do think our midfield group is a bit wonky and not as good as the sum of all parts, but I am still adamant Treloar does not improve us, especially when you consider what he costs.

[Doc26]

I wonder if the Dodos could also pay part of Treloar’s salary for us in addition to Collingwood’s share?

I don't envy Sam's challenge in trying to maximise our position with Dunkley's posible exodus.

In the Treloar case as an example, he would need to satisfy Collingwood with a suitable trade, whilst also negotiating salary coverage between the Pies / Us and possibly the Bombers. Then against this, other Clubs, like Hawthorn, will no doubt be pitching an offer to Collingwood for Treloar. And then all this without Essendon knowing at this time what they can offer us whilst they're still negotiating on Saad and Caldwell, and without us showing our hand to Essendon as to what might be the min. agreeable to us for Dunkley to move.

I hope that any of the pre work that will need to be invested by us to satisfy, say, Treloar and Collingwood, for a move prior to deadline doesn't ultimately distract and diminish our hard-line approach to dealing with Dodoro, that might ultimately see him get Dunkley for unders given a possible agreement for Adam to come over.

There's a lot of pieces in all of this for it to fall for our maximum gain.

[soupman]

There's a lot of pieces in all of this for it to fall for our maximum gain.

And all this without a confirmed salary cap or squad size in 2021 for any of the clubs involved.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You have seen Treloar play yeah?

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I do think our midfield group is a bit wonky and not as good as the sum of all parts, but I am still adamant Treloar does not improve us, especially when you consider what he costs.

I'm not saying Treloar is a beautiful user by foot, but he's also not as bad as you're making him out to be. He's a very positive player - he takes ground and surges forward, often under pressure, so his kicks aren't always going to be perfect. Hell, I'd argue Bont's skills aren't where they need to be in recent times either, but both of them are far more constructive with their usage than Hunter/Dunkley and to a lesser degree Macrae who all chip it sideways/backwards and lack penetration. These are critical factors when you're trying to break down the best defensive teams and it's why we only really look dangerous when Bont / Smith / JJ have the ball moving forward.

The cost of Treloar is another matter entirely and the biggest hurdle, but I think it's silly to suggest he doesn't improve us.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Lynch, Gowers and Greene delisted.

Story here (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/834266/bulldogs-confirm-list-changes).

[bornadog]

Lynch, Gowers and Greene delisted.
Not unexpected

So with Dickson, plus La Young gone that is 5 and JD could be 6

[hujsh]

Lynch, Gowers and Greene delisted.

Story here (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/834266/bulldogs-confirm-list-changes).

Fair, good and a shame in that order.

[ledge]

Not unexpected

So with Dickson gone that is 4 and JD could be 5

And Young has gone as well

[bornadog]

Uncontracted Remaining on list: (assuming La Young gone, and Jong getting one year)

Jackson Trengove: 2020
Taylor Duryea: 2020
Ben Cavarra: 2020
Will Hayes: 2020
Callum Porter: 2020
Matt Suckling: 2020 (FA)
Jordan Sweet: 2020 (Rookie)
Roarke Smith: 2020 (Rookie)
Ryan Gardner: 2020 (Rookie)
Buku Khamis: 2020 (Rookie)

Surely Porter is gone?

[bornadog]

And Young has gone as well

Yes, thanks I just realised

[comrade]

Uncontracted Remaining on list: (assuming La Young gone, and Jong getting one year)

Jackson Trengove: 2020
Taylor Duryea: 2020
Ben Cavarra: 2020
Will Hayes: 2020
Callum Porter: 2020
Matt Suckling: 2020 (FA)
Jordan Sweet: 2020 (Rookie)
Roarke Smith: 2020 (Rookie)
Ryan Gardner: 2020 (Rookie)
Buku Khamis: 2020 (Rookie)

Surely Porter is gone?

I'd only keep Cavarra, Duryea, Gardner and Sweet.

[The Underdog]

I'd only keep Cavarra, Duryea, Gardner and Sweet.

Yeah, but you know Roarke is getting another year, right? It’s gonna happen.

[josie]

Sad Greene did not have more opportunities to play seniors. Hope another club gives him a go. Injuries did not help his cause, nor did no vfl this year.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm thinking going up the order should be the play, if we can get something decent from Essendon.

Step 1. Pick 6 and our Future Third - for - A Future First from Essendon for Dunkley. Say no players from them for argument sake.
* Note: Rates Dunkley fairly high. Around Shiel, much less than Treloar as examples when they were traded, although out of contract.
Step 2. Pick 6 and 14 and Essendon Future First for Pick 2 & 28 from North (Young included as steak knives)
* Note: Last year GWS traded 6 & Future First for Pick 4. So using that as a template we upgrade their 28 into 14 and Young. North net three first rounders (two likely top 10 picks) and a player of ours that they want. Nice way to rebuild.
Step 3. Pick 54 for Hannan.
Step 4. Use pick 2 on a gun midfielder. Hollands quite possibly. (I don't believe Adelaide will bid on JUH. I think Logan McDonald would suit them.
Step 5. Match JUH and if desired Macpherson/Raak at the draft.
Step 6. Take Picks 28, 41 = 1,089 Draft Points
Step 7. Trade 28 to Collingwood for Picks 39 & 42 (801 Points). Trade Pick 41 to Adelaide for Picks 50, 56 & 60 (547 Points) Net 256 more draft points through these trades.
Step 8. Take 1,347 Draft Points into the draft (with at least 5 spots open to use them all).
Step 9. If JUH is bid on at Pick 4 as Twomey suggests. We need 1,600 points on him slipping from Pick 3 to Pick 4. If MacPherson &/or Raak come after Pick 55 they're free. If it's bids before then a small amount. Say our deficit is about 250 points. If we could live trade in a Third Rounder at the bid for our future Second Rounder (or exchange of rounds) we could virtually eliminate a deficit. Only going into deficit if we bid on MacPherson and/or Raak if we match a bid before Pick 55. Which it sounds like is a low risk and only a low amount of deficit unless we did a small juggle.

= Dunkley & Young and our current picks >>> Two of the best Three Players In the Draft, MacPherson & Raak if desired, plus Hannan and Stef Martin (if that gets done). We trade Dunkley & 14 for most likely the best midfielder in the draft at Pick 2.

2021 Draft Hand: Natural First Rounder (unless a slight deficit), Natural Fourth Rounder, Traded in Third/Fourth Rounder (subject to any player trades in 2021). (Give or take on the late picks) (Edit: Unless you add Treloar for the 2021 First Rounder & fine detail exchanges picks/salary. Maybe trade out someone for a 2021 Second Rounder. That's a hell of a trade/draft period).


GWS have used this strategy of getting ahead of the expected high bid twice successfully (Taranto at Pick 2 before matching Setterfield at Pick 5 & Ash at Pick 4 before matching Greene at Pick 10 - some suggested Greene should've been a top 3 bid, but slid). The more I think about it, if we could grab the best midfielder and best KPF in the draft, I'd rather look at a ballsy move like this. Of course the competition would cry bloody murder... But Sam Power's job isn't worrying about the feelings of other clubs and their fans. I can see a case for all those trades being mutually beneficial if those are the cards that get dealt. Recent trading history for all the trades has them being plausible chances. The key is that I don't see Adelaide who need a great news story and hope to sell their members, bidding on JUH which tells their fans after a shithouse year, you still didn't get the best player. I also don't see the AFEL liking a Pick 1 bid as a branding exercise. Recent history says that even the best Priority Access players end up sliding just a bit to a fair bit. I think there's a roadmap to a really good outcome.

[josie]

Said it before BT-you should be advisor to club.

Your posts are always food for thought. So good to have you back posting.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

6 clubs apparently after our first pick.

[chef]

I'm thinking going up the order should be the play, if we can get something decent from Essendon.

Step 1. Pick 6 and our Future Third - for - A Future First from Essendon for Dunkley. Say no players from them for argument sake.
* Note: Rates Dunkley fairly high. Around Shiel, much less than Treloar as examples when they were traded, although out of contract.
Step 2. Pick 6 and 14 and Essendon Future First for Pick 2 & 28 from North (Young included as steak knives)
* Note: Last year GWS traded 6 & Future First for Pick 4. So using that as a template we upgrade their 28 into 14 and Young. North net three first rounders (two likely top 10 picks) and a player of ours that they want. Nice way to rebuild.
Step 3. Pick 54 for Hannan.
Step 4. Use pick 2 on a gun midfielder. Hollands quite possibly. (I don't believe Adelaide will bid on JUH. I think Logan McDonald would suit them.
Step 5. Match JUH and if desired Macpherson/Raak at the draft.
Step 6. Take Picks 28, 41 = 1,089 Draft Points
Step 7. Trade 28 to Collingwood for Picks 39 & 42 (801 Points). Trade Pick 41 to Adelaide for Picks 50, 56 & 60 (547 Points) Net 256 more draft points through these trades.
Step 8. Take 1,347 Draft Points into the draft (with at least 5 spots open to use them all).
Step 9. If JUH is bid on at Pick 4 as Twomey suggests. We need 1,600 points on him slipping from Pick 3 to Pick 4. If MacPherson &/or Raak come after Pick 55 they're free. If it's bids before then a small amount. Say our deficit is about 250 points. If we could live trade in a Third Rounder at the bid for our future Second Rounder (or exchange of rounds) we could virtually eliminate a deficit. Only going into deficit if we bid on MacPherson and/or Raak if we match a bid before Pick 55. Which it sounds like is a low risk and only a low amount of deficit unless we did a small juggle.

= Dunkley & Young and our current picks >>> Two of the best Three Players In the Draft, MacPherson & Raak if desired, plus Hannan and Martin (if that gets done). We trade Dunkley & 14 for most likely the best midfielder in the draft at Pick 2.

2021 Draft Hand: Natural First Rounder (unless a slight deficit), Natural Fourth Rounder, Traded in Third/Fourth Rounder (subject to any player trades in 2021). (Give or take on the late picks)


GWS have used this strategy of getting ahead of the expected high bid twice (Setterfield & Greene) successfully. The more I think about it, if we could grab the best midfielder and best KPF in the draft, I'd rather look at a ballsy move like this. Of course the competition would cry bloody murder... But Sam Power's job isn't worrying about the feelings of other clubs and their fans. I can see a case for all those trades being mutually beneficial if those are the cards that get dealt. Recent trading history for all the trades has them being plausible chances. The key is that I don't see Adelaide who need a great news story and hope to sell their members, bidding on JUH which tells their fans after a shithouse year, you still didn't get the best player. I also don't see the AFEL liking a Pick 1 bid as a branding exercise. Recent history says that even the best Priority Access players end up sliding just a bit to a fair bit. I think there's a roadmap to a really good outcome.

We missed you.

[bulldogtragic]

Said it before BT-you should be advisor to club.

Your posts are always food for thought. So good to have you back posting.

Thanks Josie. Advisor? In my dreams. I'd happily be the coffee boy to the list management team! :D


We missed you.

Right back at you GF buddy. Hope your back flat-out in the kitchen.

[divvydan]

So, we didn't bring in Stef Martin through FA. Either we have to trade for him or have to assume Brisbane will delist him and then pick him up. For those wondering why we might trade for him given we probably could've gotten him as a FA, Brisbane only look like using 2 live picks this draft, with a third for a rookie pick. They've already gone from 43 to 53 this year to improve next year and they may be willing to give us 53 along with Martin for something next season, which could give us more points this year.

[bornadog]

Hey BT, I think Essendon can't trade next years 1st pick because they haven't used a first for a number of years. (need to check)

Edit: article - https://www.afl.com.au/news/498734/hands-tied-why-two-big-vic-clubs-can-t-trade-first-pick

[bulldogtragic]

Hey BT, I think Essendon can't trade next years 1st pick because they haven't used a first for a number of years. (need to check)

Edit: article - https://www.afl.com.au/news/498734/hands-tied-why-two-big-vic-clubs-can-t-trade-first-pick

The solution is they use Pick 7 this year. Trade us pick 6. Then work out how best for them they get an extra first rounder next year, probably using Saad. Using one next year and trading us one. Something like Pick 8 for Saad. Then trading Pick 8 to Geelong for Pick 13/15 & 2021 First. Pick 8 on traded to GWS for Cameron with another pick. Essendon use the Geelong First Rounder next year. I had giving them a third back. It might move into a second rounder, on traded to GCS for Wright. (Essendon also seem to be angling for a future First Rounder for Fantasia, which could make things easier again).

Essendon over 2 years use two or three First Rounders on kids (7, 13/15, 16-18 next year), Trade two First Rounders to gain Dunkley & Wright in effect (for Daniher & Saad). Trade 13/15 if wanted too.
Dogs go up the order (per earlier thread)
Geelong get Cameron
GWS get their top 10 pick
GCS get the future pick wanted for Wright
Carlton get Saad

Everyone win?

[soupman]

BT thats impressive and would be amazing if we could pull it off.

I do think the JUH bid will slide, NGA/FS kids have typically been bid on later than they should, although all it takes is one club to screw us over.

[GVGjr]

Hey BT, I think Essendon can't trade next years 1st pick because they haven't used a first for a number of years. (need to check)

Edit: article - https://www.afl.com.au/news/498734/hands-tied-why-two-big-vic-clubs-can-t-trade-first-pick

The Daniher compensation changes that now

The Joe Daniher compensation enables Essendon to trade a future R1 pick. But if Bombers trade a future R1, they must keep their two 2020 R1 picks, unless they bring another in (eg. Saad). They also couldn’t trade any other future picks without bringing another in (eg. Fantasia).

[jeemak]

So, we didn't bring in Stef Martin through FA. Either we have to trade for him or have to assume Brisbane will delist him and then pick him up. For those wondering why we might trade for him given we probably could've gotten him as a FA, Brisbane only look like using 2 live picks this draft, with a third for a rookie pick. They've already gone from 43 to 53 this year to improve next year and they may be willing to give us 53 along with Martin for something next season, which could give us more points this year.

You pretty much nail shit with your knowledge mate, thank you.

[Happy Days]

I like the thought you’ve put into it BT (and am stoked you’re back) but we’re losing one of our best players, otherwise have a top 4 calibre list, and will be already using considerable draft capital on a player that we can’t reasonably expect to meaningfully contribute next year. We need to use this unique opportunity we’ve been presented with to bring in a gun player who’s a gun player right now, not when Bont is 29 and playing CHF.

[bulldogtragic]

I like the thought you’ve put into it BT (and am stoked you’re back) but we’re losing one of our best players, otherwise have a top 4 calibre list, and will be already using considerable draft capital on a player that we can’t reasonably expect to meaningfully contribute next year. We need to use this unique opportunity we’ve been presented with to bring in a gun player who’s a gun player right now, not when Bont is 29 and playing CHF.

Thanks HD. Fair point. What if the Trealor rumours are true and if our future first rounder (among other fine detail) was good enough to secure him? Then there's Treloar, Martin & Hannan with JUH & Hollands (who both could play forward quickly) et al on the list for next season?

[GVGjr]

So Greene, Gowers, and Lynch have been delisted. Dickson has retired and Jong and Wood have be re-signed and it looks like Lachlan Young is off to North but I don't think that has been confirmed

Question marks remain on Suckling, Trengove, Khamis, Cavarra, Porter, Hayes and Roarke Smith. Gardner and Duryea are in talks with the club. You would have to think that with the games we invested in Gardner then that deal will get done. Duryea should get a deal as well
Bailey Dale's name is being mentioned in possible trade talks but there is nothing on Schache or Lewis Young so far
You would have to assume that if we add Stephan Martin then Trengove won't be required.

Where does that leave Suckling, Khamis, Cavarra, Porter, Hayes and maybe R.Smith?

We have some interest in Hannan, Lonie and Martin and we must be discussing Treloar especially if Dunks was to leave

[bulldogtragic]

So Greene, Gowers, and Lynch have been delisted. Dickson has retired and Jong and Wood have be re-signed and it looks like Lachlan Young is off to North but I don't think that has been confirmed

Question marks remain on Suckling, Trengove, Khamis, Cavarra, Porter, Hayes and Roarke Smith. Gardner and Duryea are in talks with the club. You would have to think that with the games we invested in Gardner then that deal will get done. Duryea should get a deal as well
Bailey Dale's name is being mentioned in possible trade talks but there is nothing on Schache or Lewis Young so far
You would have to assume that if we add Stephan Martin then Trengove won't be required.

Where does that leave Suckling, Khamis, Cavarra, Porter, Hayes and maybe R.Smith?

We have some interest in Hannan, Lonie and Martin and we must be discussing Treloar especially if Dunks was to leave

I don't know what kind of seasons these guys had. But related, say (for argument sake) we take in 5-6 draft picks into the draft and day we take the three Priority Access kids. Then there's 2-3 spots open. We need to maybe cut several more players (if list numbers reduce by two or more), say many on your list above. Would Bevo lean on Sam Power to re-draft say 2 of the players to keep the experience within the group? (Assuming they don't get picked up elsewhere) Do we need late somewhat speculative selections?

[Happy Days]

Thanks HD. Fair point. What if the Trealor rumours are true and if our future first rounder (among other fine detail) was good enough to secure him? Then there's Treloar, Martin & Hannan with JUH & Hollands (who both could play forward quickly) et al on the list for next season?

Thanks to Collingwood there’s no shot we need to part with a future first for Treloar. Dunkley would have been on around $400k and we need $900k to cover Treloar’s salary. I think that if we cover the whole thing then a pick around 40 would be enough, and they also have a stated interest in Bailey Dale who no one should be hesitant to see the back of.

Soup is right about us not needing to help Collingwood here. Their horrible list management should have us in a position to pounce and take advantage of them, not be reasonable to win equity like we are typically wont to do. Plus their list management in itself has proven that they’re terrible at it so why should we expect them to suddenly turn hard and talk us out of a pick we have no reason to give?

[GVGjr]

I don't know what kind of seasons these guys had. But related, say (for argument sake) we take in 5-6 draft picks into the draft and day we take the three Priority Access kids. Then there's 2-3 spots open. We need to maybe cut several more players (if list numbers reduce by two or more), say many on your list above. Would Bevo lean on Sam Power to re-draft say 2 of the players to keep the experience within the group? (Assuming they don't get picked up elsewhere) Do we need late somewhat speculative selections?

Agreed, We've got a fine line to balance this year and we may need 3 picks/spots to cover the JUH points so I can see scenario's where we end up redrafting players late in the draft. I think we will need to have at least 7 spots open to cover JUH and the other priority youngsters and then redraft say the likes of Khamis later on

The complication is around also needing to bring in Hannan, Martin and maybe Treloar and Lonie

List wise there is a lot more to play out

[Bulldog4life]

Thanks HD. Fair point. What if the Trealor rumours are true and if our future first rounder (among other fine detail) was good enough to secure him? Then there's Treloar, Martin & Hannan with JUH & Hollands (who both could play forward quickly) et al on the list for next season?

Welcome back BT your wisdom was missed. What worries me about Treloar is 1/ his salary and 2/ the red flag with Collingwood saying he is likely going to struggle without his partner. He has unfortunately had some mental problems in the past too. Apparently Collingwood are only prepared to pay $100,000 towards his salary as well. Whether that is only next season I am not sure. Plus Treloar's $900,000 is tipped to go higher in the following years. I don't think he is worth that. How will our other players feel about that too?

[1eyedog]

Welcome back BT your wisdom was missed. What worries me about Treloar is 1/ his salary and 2/ the red flag with Collingwood saying he is likely going to struggle without his partner. He has unfortunately had some mental problems in the past too. Apparently Collingwood are only prepared to pay $100,000 towards his salary as well. Whether that is only next season I am not sure. Plus Treloar's $900,000 is tipped to go higher in the following years. I don't think he is worth that. How will our other players feel about that too?

I still believe they will take on 200k and as for how our players perceive it I think there is a fair amount of sympathy for his situation. It was Collingwood who agreed to pay him that and if he was to come to us it would be on the proviso that we are prepared to take that on. I can't see how Treloar would be singled out for that.

He's pretty wounded at the moment and I think Bevo is the perfect coach for him right now. I actually think he could be a better player with us. I don't want him but I get the allure.

[bulldogtragic]

Welcome back BT your wisdom was missed. What worries me about Treloar is 1/ his salary and 2/ the red flag with Collingwood saying he is likely going to struggle without his partner. He has unfortunately had some mental problems in the past too. Apparently Collingwood are only prepared to pay $100,000 towards his salary as well. Whether that is only next season I am not sure. Plus Treloar's $900,000 is tipped to go higher in the following years. I don't think he is worth that. How will our other players feel about that too?

Hey B4L. All valid points. But he could come cheap as it's clear he's not going back (like with Stringer). Treloar doesn't want to go to Brisbane or GCS, so I imagine that's not a major issue. The club would obviously probe his mental health and work out if out organisation is the right fit. Collingwood only offering $100,000... Hilarious! :D That's a laughable ambit claim by Collingwood. I'd be looking between 1/3 to 1/2 his wage, and I reckon that's where it lies in these circumstances. We may extend his contract and look to see if we can find a good number after his Collingwood subsidy expires. If that comes down to near Dunkley wage levels then I don't thing the players would be annoyed. I imagine he'd meet the leadership group too. I assume Matty Boyd is still at Collingwood and can offer us a trustworthy assessment of any and all matters.

My strong preference, beyond salary paid, is a future first rounder and something coming back (draft points this year). If all the points you raise get ticked off. Now if he comes out and nominates us and suggests to Collingwood he will air all his grievances if they don't trade him, I might want even more back. This isn't exactly the Stringer situation, but it's not far off. Collingwood need it to happen. But we would need to tick all the boxes as you say if the Treloar rumours have any substance. And the trade needs to really work for us.

[The Underdog]

I still believe they will take on 200k and as for how our players perceive it I think there is a fair amount of sympathy for his situation. It was Collingwood who agreed to pay him that and if he was to come to us it would be on the proviso that we are prepared to take that on. I can't see how Treloar would be singled out for that.

He's pretty wounded at the moment and I think Bevo is the perfect coach for him right now. I actually think he could be a better player with us. I don't want him but I get the allure.

If anything, Treloar next year is going to be motivated as all hell. And his first game against Collingwood would be must see.

[EasternWest]

If anything, Treloar next year is going to be motivated as all hell. And his first game against Collingwood would be must see.

Hopefully not motovated.

[DOG GOD]

Ok, so what the chances of getting all 3 of Treloar, Stephenson and Tippa out of all this.
Our fwd line needs a massive overhaul and there’s 2 guys above would would generate pace and excitement. Throw JUH in there as well, and it is exactly what we need.

If it means losing Richards within all this, I’m all for it.

[bornadog]

I still believe they will take on 200k and as for how our players perceive it I think there is a fair amount of sympathy for his situation. It was Collingwood who agreed to pay him that and if he was to come to us it would be on the proviso that we are prepared to take that on. I can't see how Treloar would be singled out for that.

He's pretty wounded at the moment and I think Bevo is the perfect coach for him right now. I actually think he could be a better player with us. I don't want him but I get the allure.

Why would we pay Treloar $700k and not give that to Dunkley, if that is his issue?

[bornadog]

The Daniher compensation changes that now

The Joe Daniher compensation enables Essendon to trade a future R1 pick. But if Bombers trade a future R1, they must keep their two 2020 R1 picks, unless they bring another in (eg. Saad). They also couldn’t trade any other future picks without bringing another in (eg. Fantasia).

Thanks for that, which means Essendon must use this years 2 x 1st round picks. Therefore to trade, they need to get pick 8 for Saad, they can use that and next years first.

[GVGjr]

Why would we pay Treloar $700k and not give that to Dunkley, if that is his issue?

That is the issue for me but I think Treloar is the better footballer.
The hard part might be to give him a substantial pay increase about this contract given we didn't play him in the midfield enough this year

[bornadog]

That is the issue for me but I think Treloar is the better footballer.
The hard part might be to give him a substantial pay increase about this contract given we didn't play him in the midfield enough this year

I don't buy that we didn't play him in the midfield. AFL is a team sport, and you are lucky to be in the best 22 with so many footballers wanting your spot. You play in a position that best suits the team.

[GVGjr]

I don't buy that we didn't play him in the midfield. AFL is a team sport, and you are lucky to be in the best 22 with so many footballers wanting your spot. You play in a position that best suits the team.

His output was reduced, I don't think there is any argument about that. When Wood was moved forward and had a reduced output you were quick to say he needed to be moved back, why not the same for Dunks? He is a better midfielder than forward in my view

[bornadog]

His output was reduced, I don't think there is any argument about that. When Wood was moved forward and had a reduced output you were quick to say he needed to be moved back, why not the same for Dunks? He is a better midfielder than forward in my view

True, but I am talking from the team perspective, not the supporters perspective.

Perhaps he doesn't like playing forward or chop out in the ruck, fine, but in the end it is a team game. To me it is not a reason to leave. From the outside, it just seems like money, but perhaps to him he wants to be king in the middle.

[dog town]

His output was reduced, I don't think there is any argument about that. When Wood was moved forward and had a reduced output you were quick to say he needed to be moved back, why not the same for Dunks? He is a better midfielder than forward in my view Wood wasn’t pushed out due to numbers though it was a poorly judged experiment. Dunkley and others haven’t been able to fit into the midfield full time.

To criticise Dunkley getting less minutes we need to assign a player to get fewer minutes don’t we? He wasn’t on his own either some other players copped the same treatment.

[DOG GOD]

I always thought Dunkley was a good team player, but this saga just reeks EGO.

[GVGjr]

Wood wasn’t pushed out due to numbers though it was a poorly judged experiment. Dunkley and others haven’t been able to fit into the midfield full time.

To criticise Dunkley getting less minutes we need to assign a player to get fewer minutes don’t we? He wasn’t on his own either some other players copped the same treatment.

Wood was tried forward because we wanted a more mobile back 6 and the thought was he could hold some marks there. We learned quickly that he's very limited in that way and had to move him back.

I actually think we tried to experiment with Dunkley spending more time forward as a pseudo 3rd tall forward and like what happened in the first 5 rounds of 2019 it was a failed experiment.

There is no question from my perspective that the combination of an opportunity of more minutes in the midfield and an early pay bump have given Dunkley reasons for a rethink. Power sort of acknowledges that

Our options are around backing his professionalism to just get on with it if we refuse to trade him. Offer him a pay bump in good faith and acknowledge that we can use him a bit more in the midfield or try and dance with the devil and do a trade with Essendon

I'd still prefer to keep him at the club.

[GVGjr]

I always Dunkley was a good team player, but this saga just reeks EGO.

With a strong odour of frustration

[1eyedog]

Why would we pay Treloar $700k and not give that to Dunkley, if that is his issue?

Agreed. It might be a case of we upped our offer too late. I do believe Dumbkley wants to be the main man and Essendon have told him he will be. He'll be their next captain too probably. He simply won't get that opportunity with us. I guess he's backing himself in to go to another level with the opportunities he'll have there.

It's all about him and that's ok.

[Bulldog4life]

Hey B4L. All valid points. But he could come cheap as it's clear he's not going back (like with Stringer). Treloar doesn't want to go to Brisbane or GCS, so I imagine that's not a major issue. The club would obviously probe his mental health and work out if out organisation is the right fit. Collingwood only offering $100,000... Hilarious! :D That's a laughable ambit claim by Collingwood. I'd be looking between 1/3 to 1/2 his wage, and I reckon that's where it lies in these circumstances. We may extend his contract and look to see if we can find a good number after his Collingwood subsidy expires. If that comes down to near Dunkley wage levels then I don't thing the players would be annoyed. I imagine he'd meet the leadership group too. I assume Matty Boyd is still at Collingwood and can offer us a trustworthy assessment of any and all matters.

My strong preference, beyond salary paid, is a future first rounder and something coming back (draft points this year). If all the points you raise get ticked off. Now if he comes out and nominates us and suggests to Collingwood he will air all his grievances if they don't trade him, I might want even more back. This isn't exactly the Stringer situation, but it's not far off. Collingwood need it to happen. But we would need to tick all the boxes as you say if the Treloar rumours have any substance. And the trade needs to really work for us.

Boydy at Fremantle now BT.

[azabob]

Boydy at Fremantle now BT.

Either way his assessment will now be less bias as he left the pies at the end of 2020.

[DOG GOD]

With a strong odour of frustration

No doubt. After 2019 he probably wasn’t expecting Libba to come as strong as he did this year. Coupled that with the emergence of Bailey Smith, Dunkley found himself probably being rotated more than previously.

[SquirrelGrip]

Thanks for that, which means Essendon must use this years 2 x 1st round picks. Therefore to trade, they need to get pick 8 for Saad, they can use that and next years first.

Carlt0n have been discussing swapping their pick 8 for Brisbane’s 18 and 19, then trading 18 or 19 for Saad. Does pick 19 count as a first round pick?

[bornadog]

Carlt0n have been discussing swapping their pick 8 for Brisbane’s 18 and 19, then trading 18 or 19 for Saad. Does pick 19 count as a first round pick?

According to the indicative order, first round goes to 21. see here (https://www.afl.com.au/news/523048/indicative-draft-order-your-club-s-picks-as-they-stand)

[bornadog]

SIX-CLUB CHASE FOR VALUABLE DOGS ASSET (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-trade-news-rumours-whispers-2020-trade-blog-trade-chat-friday-november-7-trade-period-free-agents-latest-news-jaidyn-stephenson-orazio-fantasia/news-story/81a83ff6c1807cd8b911289f6a099ff7)


The Western Bulldogs’ first-round draft pick is up for grabs and six clubs are in the hunt for it, reports AFL Media.


Pick 14 is available as the club seeks more draft points, via lower selections, in order to match the bid at the top of the draft for next generation academy prospect Jamarra Ugle-Hagan.


Adelaide, Collingwood and North Melbourne have all reached out to the Bulldogs, according to the report, though a decision may not be made before the end of the trade period.


Under AFL rules, the Dogs can trade their pick up until a week before the national draft, and could also trade the pick on draft night itself in an effort to extract maximum value.


Pick 14 is worth 1161 draft points, roughly the same as picks 20 and 52, 25 and 42, and 30 and 35, just to name three possible combinations.

[GVGjr]

If we assume we can do a deal with Adelaide with pack swaps that ties up JUH for us and then we decide to deal Dunkley to Essendon for picks I wonder if we could parlay that into a deal with GWS for Caldwell?
It would be great to get one back on Essendon and I wouldn't underrate the chance that McCartney wouldn't mind getting one back on them as well

Could we offer pick 8 to GWS for Caldwell and say their pick 33 this year or a second rounder next year?
Caldwell is a very different player to Dunkley but would add to our midfield options

[bornadog]

If we assume we can do a deal with Adelaide with pack swaps that ties up JUH for us and then we decide to deal Dunkley to Essendon for picks I wonder if we could parlay that into a deal with GWS for Caldwell?
It would be great to get one back on Essendon and I wouldn't underrate the chance that McCartney wouldn't mind getting one back on them as well

Could we offer pick 8 to GWS for Caldwell and say their pick 33 this year or a second rounder next year?
Caldwell is a very different player to Dunkley but would add to our midfield options

Caldwell has been offered a 5 year deal at $550k per annum. I doubt we would want to match that? What else would he accept?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Caldwell has been offered a 5 year deal at $550k per annum. I doubt we would want to match that? What else would he accept?

I’d rather that than Treloar at 700-900k.

[GVGjr]

Caldwell has been offered a 5 year deal at $550k per annum. I doubt we would want to match that? What else would he accept?

Does he really want to take the chance of a cashed up North picking him in the pre-season draft? If GWS say we will only deal with the Dogs he might change his tune

I know it's a long shot but if Essendon are splashing the cash around it's going eventually catch-up with them

[bornadog]

Does he really want to take the chance of a cashed up North picking him in the pre-season draft? If GWS say we will only deal with the Dogs he might change his tune

I know it's a long shot but if Essendon are splashing the cash around it's going eventually catch-up with them

Always worth a shot.

[bornadog]

I’d rather that than Treloar at 700-900k.

We would want to negotiate that right down with Collingwood. Calwell is unproven, Treloar has runs on the board.

[Ghost Dog]

With a strong odour of frustration

Well, I have a feeling this all started with a shot over the bow to get his midfield spot back.
And once it was going downhill it got momentum.

[GVGjr]

We would want to negotiate that right down with Collingwood. Calwell is unproven, Treloar has runs on the board.

Caldwell has had 2 seasons in the AFL so I'm not sure he is unproven as there is a fair bit to measure him against. Lets face it his best football should still be in front of him.
The reports a couple of years back is that we were bit interested in him so perhaps that hasn't diminished

As for Treloar, the general thoughts are that teams might be able to push Collingwood into a maximum of 150K a season for a couple of years but I suspect they would come at 200K for 2 years if it was a good pick in exchange

I'd still prefer to keep Dunkley and give him a bit of a pay bump in good faith

[bornadog]

Caldwell has had 2 seasons in the AFL so I'm not sure he is unproven as there is a fair bit to measure him against.

He has played 11 games and averaging 12 disposals. He may be a good prospect, but has along way to go.

Is he the type of player we need to fill in a gap?

[GVGjr]

He has played 11 games and averaging 12 disposals. He may be a good prospect, but has along way to go.

Is he the type of player we need to fill in a gap?

He's an emerging midfielder with his best footballer in front of him and we could probably be able to play him as much in the midfield as we did Dunkley this year. He has pace which is a gap in our list

[GVGjr]

So with just a few days to go will any of our players be traded? We know Dunks is in the mix and I'm not sure what the status is of Lachlan Young but what about any others?

Could there be some interest in Ed Richards, Josh Schache, Lewis Young or Bailey Dale?

[DOG GOD]

So with just a few days to go will any of our players be traded? We know Dunks is in the mix and I'm not sure what the status is of Lachlan Young but what about any others?

Could there be some interest in Ed Richards, Josh Schache, Lewis Young or Bailey Dale?

I’ll honestly be shocked if Schache doesn’t end up at Collingwood, Hawthorn, Essendon or North.
Lew Young would be a great pick up for Hawthorn, North or Adelaide.
There is obviously no future in these guys playing for the Dogs, so why keep them?

[Go_Dogs]

Hard to know what the market will be for any of those players you’ve mentioned GVG. A lot of it depends on role / circumstance but I look at a side like WCE and think Dale could be handy as a full time medium forward with them, and potentially with a side like Port too. Ready to go, plays a role and will be more effective full time forward in a side that moves the ball quickly and / or delivers well.

Schache another interesting one. Hard to see him getting a regular game next season behind Naughton, Bruce and potentially JUH, along with English if he spends more time forward and the enigma that’s becoming Lew Young. Has talent but not the tenacity. Would probably do ok if he was 3 inches shorter and more readily able to play as a flanker. That being said, maybe it clicks and a side gets 2-3 good years out of him. That’s sometimes all you need from tall role player types to go from being as aspirant to a genuine contender.

[ledge]

Hard to know what the market will be for any of those players you’ve mentioned GVG. A lot of it depends on role / circumstance but I look at a side like WCE and think Dale could be handy as a full time medium forward with them, and potentially with a side like Port too. Ready to go, plays a role and will be more effective full time forward in a side that moves the ball quickly and / or delivers well.

Schache another interesting one. Hard to see him getting a regular game next season behind Naughton, Bruce and potentially JUH, along with English if he spends more time forward and the enigma that’s becoming Lew Young. Has talent but not the tenacity. Would probably do ok if he was 3 inches shorter and more readily able to play as a flanker. That being said, maybe it clicks and a side gets 2-3 good years out of him. That’s sometimes all you need from tall role player types to go from being as aspirant to a genuine contender.

Pretty sad about Josh Schache if he goes, probably our most reliable kick in front of goal as far as our talls go.

[Danjul]

Pretty sad about Josh Schache if he goes, probably our most reliable kick in front of goal as far as our talls go.

Sad is too mild a description. I’m disgusted with the way he has been treated since he came to the Dogs. And then look at.......

[Ghost Dog]

Hard to know what the market will be for any of those players you’ve mentioned GVG. A lot of it depends on role / circumstance but I look at a side like WCE and think Dale could be handy as a full time medium forward with them, and potentially with a side like Port too. Ready to go, plays a role and will be more effective full time forward in a side that moves the ball quickly and / or delivers well.

Schache another interesting one. Hard to see him getting a regular game next season behind Naughton, Bruce and potentially JUH, along with English if he spends more time forward and the enigma that’s becoming Lew Young. Has talent but not the tenacity. Would probably do ok if he was 3 inches shorter and more readily able to play as a flanker. That being said, maybe it clicks and a side gets 2-3 good years out of him. That’s sometimes all you need from tall role player types to go from being as aspirant to a genuine contender.


Josh has always been just a little laconic but is it fixable? I honestly didn't think he would succeed when I first saw him play.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He's an emerging midfielder with his best footballer in front of him and we could probably be able to play him as much in the midfield as we did Dunkley this year. He has pace which is a gap in our list

Caldwell has done nothing. Why would we pay him 500K as is reported? Might as well either hold Dunkley to his contract OR go for the better and proven elite talent in Treloar.

Anyone taking Caldwell is hoping he gets to a level near Treloar. So far he's nowhere near it.

I get the sentiment with ATs contract but I'd rather pay him 700k than Caldwell 500k.

[soupman]

Josh has always been just a little laconic but is it fixable? I honestly didn't think he would succeed when I first saw him play.

I think he hasn't got the fight in him to be a proper forward. I know Danjul has been pretty keen on him there with a lot of stats, but I really think best case scenario is a Josh Jenkins type who plays well when the team is but goes quiet when he is needed and in the big games. Maybe thats enough, I mean not every player has to be a matchwinner and having someone who can help capitalise on your teams ascendancy is a good thing but I've been really optimistic with Schache and it's been mostly to my dissapointment.

I do however think there is merit in trying him down back. It worked for Liam Jones (who tbf approached contests very differently to Schache but had some severe weaknesses that Josh doesn't share) who is pretty good now, and I can't see Schache being any less physical than Gardner. Even Cordy I have queries on long term so if Schache can show with an extended run of form there an ability to impact the game with his height, mobility and footskills coming out of defence it's certainly worth a shot. I mean physically having a 200cm key defender would be handy considering the rise of the Kings amongst others (I'm not sure there are others but roll with it).

[comrade]

Trading is about getting players on the upswing, not paying big dollars for past performance and getting the worst of it. I'd take Caldwell on 500k before I'd take Treloar on 700+

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Trading is about getting players on the upswing, not paying big dollars for past performance and getting the worst of it. I'd take Caldwell on 500k before I'd take Treloar on 700+

Paying 500K for an unproven mid is desperate IMO. If the mid was Rowell, sure, but Caldwell has shown very little. I'd prefer we trade for proven talent, not for a player we hope becomes good.

[comrade]

Paying 500K for an unproven mid is desperate IMO. If the mid was Rowell, sure, but Caldwell has shown very little. I'd prefer we trade for proven talent, not for a player we hope becomes good.

500k probably is a stretch, but IF he turns into the gun he's supposed to (given his draft position, the hype around him from GWS teammates), it'll be unders within a few years (and then he'll ask for a trade to Essendon with 2 years left on his deal because he wants to be the 'main man'...)

[GVGjr]

500k probably is a stretch, but IF he turns into the gun he's supposed to (given his draft position, the hype around him from GWS teammates), it'll be unders within a few years (and then he'll ask for a trade to Essendon with 2 years left on his deal because he wants to be the 'main man'...)

500K is Sam McClure speculation, it might be a lot lower than that. I wouldn't pay that for him and would rather give Dunkley the pay bump but I don't accept he is unproven. He is looking for more opportunities to play senior football

[Danjul]

I think he hasn't got the fight in him to be a proper forward. I know Danjul has been pretty keen on him there with a lot of stats, but I really think best case scenario is a Josh Jenkins type who plays well when the team is but goes quiet when he is needed and in the big games. Maybe thats enough, I mean not every player has to be a matchwinner and having someone who can help capitalise on your teams ascendancy is a good thing but I've been really optimistic with Schache and it's been mostly to my dissapointment.

I do however think there is merit in trying him down back. It worked for Liam Jones (who tbf approached contests very differently to Schache but had some severe weaknesses that Josh doesn't share) who is pretty good now, and I can't see Schache being any less physical than Gardner. Even Cordy I have queries on long term so if Schache can show with an extended run of form there an ability to impact the game with his height, mobility and footskills coming out of defence it's certainly worth a shot. I mean physically having a 200cm key defender would be handy considering the rise of the Kings amongst others (I'm not sure there are others but roll with it).
Just so everyone knows what the selection committee thinks is a proper forward.

Bruce played 11 games from rounds 6 to 18 as a key forward. Rested in one.

In that time he kicked goals in only 4 of them, for a total of 5 goals.

He got 2 goals in the 7 matches leading up to the final - I think that was a month and a half.
He got 2 possessions in round 10. Selected the next game.

In the final he showed no positives.

Yet everyone makes excuses for him and sees him as our star forward next season. This makes no sense for forward planning.

Good luck to all of the players, particularly Bruce if our success rests on him . I hope they all have a great 2021.

[bornadog]

500K is Sam McClure speculation, it might be a lot lower than that. I wouldn't pay that for him and would rather give Dunkley the pay bump but I don't accept he is unproven. He is looking for more opportunities to play senior football

11 games average 12 disposals - he is unproven.

[GVGjr]

11 games average 12 disposals - he is unproven.

He's got a thing or two to prove but by all means take that position

[soupman]

Just so everyone knows what the selection committee thinks is a proper forward.

Bruce played 11 games from rounds 6 to 18 as a key forward. Rested in one.

In that time he kicked goals in only 4 of them, for a total of 5 goals.

He got 2 goals in the 7 matches leading up to the final - I think that was a month and a half.
He got 2 possessions in round 10. Selected the next game.

In the final he showed no positives.

Yet everyone makes excuses for him and sees him as our star forward next season. This makes no sense for forward planning.

Good luck to all of the players, particularly Bruce if our success rests on him . I hope they all have a great 2021.

Mate I am firmly in the "Bruce's 2020 is up there with the worst individual seasons of all time and I have barely any faith that he will improve on that next year" camp.

Bruce being shit doesn't make Schache good but.

[soupman]

I think putting our hat in the ring for Caldwell is a good move. Unsure how close he was to nominating us but if we say we are happy to sign him on a 4 year contract on say $350-400K maybe he starts looking at that as a decent option when Essendon is stuck with other trades and he is faced with the psd or walking back to GWS with his tail between his legs.

[jazzadogs]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?

If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?

It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.

[kruder]

Have we done anything to address the lack of mongrel in our side after being brutalised by the Giants and laying 41 tackles in a basketball match against the Saints? Rendell agrees with me which is of concern but I think he is right on this one.

I feel we can make the finals again but when the whips are a cracking there are too many players on our list that will go missing. That's what holds me back from trading Dunks because he is one of the few in this group that is prepared to get their hands dirty.

I know a player like Jong isn't so called sexy, but give me his hospital handballs during the year rather than Lippa's efforts to tackle comes finals time.

I like Dale, Schache and Lippa as individuals but wth the list we have we just cant afford to keep all of them. Lloyd is the first one I'd move on happy to pay him out.

[soupman]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

Yes.


If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?


If we are prepared to play Martin, yes, as we never played Trengove. This question could be framed as Martin vs Goetz and be just as valid. Trengove was a non-person as far as our MC was concerned.



If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?


Depends how you rate having a burst mid to add to our rotations vs having a competent and big bodied forward mid.



It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.
Especially as I don't think any of them improve on our weaknesses and make us a better side overall, *slight chance Martin gets games as number one ruck and is good excepted.

I'm really hoping some names come out in the next few days that actually offer us something different to the list. They don't necessarily have to be better than the guys they are replacing, but if they can offer us something we don't have thats good.

[GVGjr]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?

If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?

It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.

All good questions and observations JD.

[soupman]

Have we done anything to address the lack of mongrel in our side

I feel we can make the finals again but when the whips are a cracking there are too many players on our list that will go missing. That's what holds me back from trading Dunks because he is one of the few in this group that is prepared to get their hands dirty.


I see your point but not sure losing Dunks changes it.

He was part of the midfield group bullied in 2019 and is way to much of a nice guy to willingly embrace the niggle like that. He was good in 2016 (as were a lot of others) but hasn't been since which to me suggests it is an overall culture and attitude thing as opposed to missing the right individuals (although individuals do help).

[bornadog]

Have we done anything to address the lack of mongrel in our side after being brutalised by the Giants and laying 41 tackles in a basketball match against the Saints? .

Kruder, I can't agree with you, I think we have matured from last year. Against the Giants - round 3 we stood up to them in every aggressive move they made. No other team has brutalised us this year.

Not sure why you bring up the 41 tackles against the Saints again? They had 32 tackles???

On tackling we were ranked 8th this year on 902 tackles, same as Saints, but ahead of a lot of teams you would expect to be right up there - Blues, Giants, WC all below us.

[jazzadogs]

All good questions and observations JD.

FWIW my answers are:
Hannan > Gowers
Trengrove = Martin (slow, lacking mobility, good in physical contests, old - maybe a slight edge to Martin for his years as a ruckman)
Treloar is a very different player to Dunkley, and that is the toughest one to answer - but I think we lose just as much from the four year of prime 23-27yo Dunkley, as we gain from 27-32yo Treloar's extra burst speed.

I don't know who I really want to improve our list - McDonald-Tipungwuti would be good and managed to kick 19 goals while being as poorly conditioned as Bruce this year, Goldstein would be fantastic but unobtainable, I don't like Stephenson. It's really tough.

[kruder]

Kruder, I can't agree with you, I think we have matured from last year. Against the Giants - round 3 we stood up to them in every aggressive move they made. No other team has brutalised us this year.

Not sure why you bring up the 41 tackles against the Saints again? They had 32 tackles???

On tackling we were ranked 8th this year on 902 tackles, same as Saints, but ahead of a lot of teams you would expect to be right up there - Blues, Giants, WC all below us.


You can disagree with me all good. How did the saints go the next week? The final that we played against them was lengths below the top 4, it was like a standard Saturday game there was no intensity, minimal pressure, missed tackles all over the joint.

Go back and watch 16 or in the matter any Richmond final there is a significant difference.

[Danjul]

Mate I am firmly in the "Bruce's 2020 is up there with the worst individual seasons of all time and I have barely any faith that he will improve on that next year" camp.

Bruce being shit doesn't make Schache good but.

I have liked what I have seen from Schache, but that’s only my opinion. Others don’t agree.

But when Bruce wasn’t performing we still had Young and Trengove. Trengove would have been helpful in the ruck. Could have kept Dunkley doing what he does best.

4 talls but selectors were infatuated with one.

I suppose I will have to wait until historians reveal what was going on at the Dogs during the last 4 puzzling, and in my opinion, unsuccessful years.

[jeemak]

Hard to know what the market will be for any of those players you’ve mentioned GVG. A lot of it depends on role / circumstance but I look at a side like WCE and think Dale could be handy as a full time medium forward with them, and potentially with a side like Port too. Ready to go, plays a role and will be more effective full time forward in a side that moves the ball quickly and / or delivers well.

Schache another interesting one. Hard to see him getting a regular game next season behind Naughton, Bruce and potentially JUH, along with English if he spends more time forward and the enigma that’s becoming Lew Young. Has talent but not the tenacity. Would probably do ok if he was 3 inches shorter and more readily able to play as a flanker. That being said, maybe it clicks and a side gets 2-3 good years out of him. That’s sometimes all you need from tall role player types to go from being as aspirant to a genuine contender.

It's interesting because we're a team that moves the ball quickly and delivers well based on the stats, particularly when we're playing well.

Could it be that Dale was just a bit shit this year and this is what hampered him the most in terms of output and opportunity? I know we look for reasons for poor performance of players that are more structural, strategic or tactical, but sometimes players are just a bit shit and I reckon this might be the case with the likes of Dale and Lloyd.

Additionally, Wallis had a consistent year in a role that has usually opened up opportunity for players meaning those two previously mentioned were only going to cement a regular spot if playing really well.

With respect to Schache I'm of the view he just needs to bulk up and play as a second ruck if he wants a career. But I'm possibly on my own with that.

[jeemak]

Just so everyone knows what the selection committee thinks is a proper forward.

Bruce played 11 games from rounds 6 to 18 as a key forward. Rested in one.

In that time he kicked goals in only 4 of them, for a total of 5 goals.

He got 2 goals in the 7 matches leading up to the final - I think that was a month and a half.
He got 2 possessions in round 10. Selected the next game.

In the final he showed no positives.

Yet everyone makes excuses for him and sees him as our star forward next season. This makes no sense for forward planning.

Good luck to all of the players, particularly Bruce if our success rests on him . I hope they all have a great 2021.

So are you saying that Josh Dunkley should be played in the ruck ongoing?

[jeemak]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?

If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?

It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.

Hannan over Gowers.
Martin over Trengove
Treloar over Dunkley short term with a caveat on Treloar's body. Massive risk.

Ideally we'd get Treloar and keep Dunkley and find a way to make it all work given Libba's a one on one off proposition these days and we're going back to a full season and longer quarters.

[jeemak]

You can disagree with me all good. How did the saints go the next week? The final that we played against them was lengths below the top 4, it was like a standard Saturday game there was no intensity, minimal pressure, missed tackles all over the joint.

Go back and watch 16 or in the matter any Richmond final there is a significant difference.

I think the Saints played exactly how they wanted to against us and get the kudos for it, but we were terrible (again) and only lost by less than a kick. We definitely have personnel issues that stop us from being top four, but what's stopping us from scratching at the door is between the ears with our group and I really hope maturity settles it because it doesn't look like bringing in cattle will this trade period.

[Danjul]

It's interesting because we're a team that moves the ball quickly and delivers well based on the stats, particularly when we're playing well.

Could it be that Dale was just a bit shit this year and this is what hampered him the most in terms of output and opportunity? I know we look for reasons for poor performance of players that are more structural, strategic or tactical, but sometimes players are just a bit shit and I reckon this might be the case with the likes of Dale and Lloyd.

Additionally, Wallis had a consistent year in a role that has usually opened up opportunity for players meaning those two previously mentioned were only going to cement a regular spot if playing really well.

With respect to Schache I'm of the view he just needs to bulk up and play as a second ruck if he wants a career. But I'm possibly on my own with that.

For a long time I didn’t see Dale as relevant. But then I noticed how he finds space in a crowded area. Usually an accurate kick, so a good finisher. Not surprised that he can get a few goals.

He is wasted spending long periods on the backline and running the length of the ground. Making him versatile limits his ability to contribute.

[jeemak]

I guess with Wallis having a good season as the dedicated mid-sized forward Dale was expected to be a bit more versatile (as was Lloyd) to find a spot. It's a shame he couldn't because I really rate him.

If he stays on the list with longer quarters and more games in a season I think things are likely to work more in his favour as opportunities are going to open up more so than they did this year.