List Management for 2020/21

[The Doctor]

Fwiw I would cut all the out of contract guys, so Suckling, Duryea, Porter, Cavarra, Hayes and Trengove all gone.



I'd keep Duryea but cut the rest and bring in a few fresh faces. I suspect Roarke Smith will be retained and possibly upgraded to the senior list.

[azabob]

Bringing in Treloar and Hannan should be the end of Hayes, Porter and Smith. Prior to these arrivals I had Smith in the keep category.

Unfortunately I think father time has caught up with Suckling. He has been a successful recruit especially during the 2016-2018 period when his body held up.

I would like to keep Duyrea around for his leadership and experience, considering Woods injury history. Yes I know Duyrea is injury prone...

I still think Trengove has a role to play in helping develop Young, Gardner and Schache with what is required on and off field.

Lloyd being contracted spells the end for Cavarra. We really erred in signing Lloyd for 2021 over the pre season. I wonder if it was a trigger clause? As I said way back when this thread was started, I'd pay Lloyd out and look to keep Cavarra or go to the draft and find a small pressure forward from the state leagues. From what I've read Ewan McPherson is a more a small defender rather than a small forward. I wonder if he has the skill set to become a small pressure forward?

If list numbers allow I'd keep Khamis as a category B rookie.

There also a number of lucky players whose contracts expire in 2021, 2022 and 2023 who can consider themselves very lucky they are currently not out of contract.

Depending on how many list spots we need on draft night to secure Ugle-Hagan I would prioritise in signing Duryea and desilting the rest and then re-drafting as required.

Overall I think the trade period has re-balanced out list to a degree - we added class and speed to our one paced midfield, added forward craft and added ruck support for English.

Ideally we still need an A grade key defender. Hopefully by some miracle Lewis Young over pre-season demands a key defensive spot or do we push Naughton back? I'm dead against pushing Naughton back but it seems the obvious move. Hopefully Bruce wakes up and realises what an insipid effort his 2020 was and pride kicks in which allows Naughton back.

The other gap is still ruck support. It is a real shame Martin isn't a few years younger. It seems there is a real depth issue of back up ruckman across the league. Surely there is an option in the state leagues?

[ledge]

Bringing in Treloar and Hannan should be the end of Hayes, Porter and Smith. Prior to these arrivals I had Smith in the keep category.

Unfortunately I think father time has caught up with Suckling. He has been a successful recruit especially during the 2016-2018 period when his body held up.

I would like to keep Duyrea around for his leadership and experience, considering Woods injury history. Yes I know Duyrea is injury prone...

I still think Trengove has a role to play in helping develop Young, Gardner and Schache with what is required on and off field.

Lloyd being contracted spells the end for Cavarra. We really erred in signing Lloyd for 2021 over the pre season. I wonder if it was a trigger clause? As I said way back when this thread was started, I'd pay Lloyd out and look to keep Cavarra or go to the draft and find a small pressure forward from the state leagues. From what I've read Ewan McPherson is a more a small defender rather than a small forward. I wonder if he has the skill set to become a small pressure forward?

If list numbers allow I'd keep Khamis as a category B rookie.

There also a number of lucky players whose contracts expire in 2021, 2022 and 2023 who can consider themselves very lucky they are currently not out of contract.

Depending on how many list spots we need on draft night to secure Ugle-Hagan I would prioritise in signing Duryea and desilting the rest and then re-drafting as required.

Overall I think the trade period has re-balanced out list to a degree - we added class and speed to our one paced midfield, added forward craft and added ruck support for English.

Ideally we still need an A grade key defender. Hopefully by some miracle Lewis Young over pre-season demands a key defensive spot or do we push Naughton back? I'm dead against pushing Naughton back but it seems the obvious move. Hopefully Bruce wakes up and realises what an insipid effort his 2020 was and pride kicks in which allows Naughton back.

The other gap is still ruck support. It is a real shame Martin isn't a few years younger. It seems there is a real depth issue of back up ruckman across the league. Surely there is an option in the state leagues?

You do realise we have Sweet who is actually the opposite to English , big bodied and more a tap ruckman , remember no VFL this year so a year behind in learning .
I personally think Martin for a year and by then Sweet and English become the main two after learning under Martin.

[SquirrelGrip]

Duryea should stay on the main list - but that might need to be by delisting and redrafting. He is valuable around the group and offers something different in our Defence. Unfortunately last year he came in too late in the season which then changed our balance.

Trengove I would like to see as a Captain/VC of Footscray, a strong person to have around the club, a big body to play with our developing juniors, and flexible enough to enable us to play our developing talks in the positions they need and he can fill in the gaps.

I’ve also turned the corner on Gardner. I couldn’t believe we picked him ahead of Young or even Trengove last year but now feel that if he can be a major role player for us within his limitations - an athletic tall shutdown-player. If he can be 30% of what Dale Morris, that’s a major win for me. We don’t need him taking intercept marks or with the ball in hand for him to be of value. He has to stay.

I’m more interested in where the development comes from our recent draftees and rookies. Out of the following, what is the most positive upside:

- Butler
- Garcia
- Weightman
- Khamis

Once the list is balanced for talls/smalls/positions, I just want the remainder filled with whoever works the hardest and shows the most commitment to set the example. This might be after doing pre-season or we might no already.

[azabob]

You do realise we have Sweet who is actually the opposite to English , big bodied and more a tap ruckman , remember no VFL this year so a year behind in learning .
I personally think Martin for a year and by then Sweet and English become the main two after learning under Martin.

I don't think Sweet will be on the list in 2022.

[SquirrelGrip]

I don't think Sweet will be on the list in 2022.

For Sweet, let’s see what impact Martin can have on his development.

[ledge]

Duryea should stay on the main list - but that might need to be by delisting and redrafting. He is valuable around the group and offers something different in our Defence. Unfortunately last year he came in too late in the season which then changed our balance.

Trengove I would like to see as a Captain/VC of Footscray, a strong person to have around the club, a big body to play with our developing juniors, and flexible enough to enable us to play our developing talks in the positions they need and he can fill in the gaps.

I’ve also turned the corner on Gardner. I couldn’t believe we picked him ahead of Young or even Trengove last year but now feel that if he can be a major role player for us within his limitations - an athletic tall shutdown-player. If he can be 30% of what Dale Morris, that’s a major win for me. We don’t need him taking intercept marks or with the ball in hand for him to be of value. He has to stay.

I’m more interested in where the development comes from our recent draftees and rookies. Out of the following, what is the most positive upside:

- Butler
- Garcia
- Weightman
- Khamis

Once the list is balanced for talls/smalls/positions, I just want the remainder filled with whoever works the hardest and shows the most commitment to set the example. This might be after doing pre-season or we might no already.

Weightman from what I see .
Remember only 1 year in no VFL and still got a debut and showed electric moments, I have very good vibes about him down the track.

[bornadog]

At a minimum, we have to delist 2 players as we have 39 now, plus JUH.

I would look at delisting 4.

Porter
Suckling
Cavarra
Hayes

Maybe Hayes can go back to Rookie.

I would still keep Trengove, but I think he is gone.

[The Underdog]

I'd keep Duryea but cut the rest and bring in a few fresh faces. I suspect Roarke Smith will be retained and possibly upgraded to the senior list.

I’d keep Duryea too, although I wonder if the sudden addition of Treloar’s salary means Suckling and Duryea are easy ways to clear salary. Especially as we have a heap of cover in Duryea’s best position. I still like Duryea on the list though

I’d be surprised if Roarke doesn’t get a spot on the main list, although I’m pretty agnostic about him staying or going.

[The Underdog]

At a minimum, we have to delist 2 players as we have 39 now, plus JUH.

I would look at delisting 4.

Porter
Suckling
Cavarra
Hayes

Maybe Hayes can go back to Rookie.

I would still keep Trengove, but I think he is gone.

I think the addition of Martin is the end of Trengove. Be astounded if he’s kept on.
Don’t disagree with the other 4. Hayes will be interesting.

[bulldogtragic]

At a minimum, we have to delist 2 players as we have 39 now, plus JUH.

I would look at delisting 4.

Porter
Suckling
Cavarra
Hayes

Maybe Hayes can go back to Rookie.

I would still keep Trengove, but I think he is gone.

We will need to use 5 picks. So we need to go into the draft with 5 spots open. Which we don't have as of today, so 5 more delistings are required. So your 4 & Trengove will do the job. Leaves Duryea as the only re-signing. I agree with your candidates. I think the trades and kids we are brining in make the list a lot stronger this trade/draft period.

[Hotdog60]

I don't think Sweet will be on the list in 2022.

Do you think he has too much of the Will Minson's about him and doesn't suit Bevo's mantra?

[josie]

I thought Cavarra looked somewhere bw ok to showing good signs. Feel for the bloke. If we are able to delist him and then add him as a rookie I hope we do.

I think Roarke might have been a keeper but after the elimination final I’d say he might be let go (was rookie list anyway I recall). Never know with Bevo though.

[Vred]

I'd be keeping Cavarra at all costs, I think we've only started scratching the surface with him, if we could pay Llyod out and get rid of him, I would be at this point, even if we pay him not to play for one season, I'd be 100% fine with that.

Trengove - Keep for depth at that's it, maybe offer him one year and nothing more
Duryea - resign
Cavarra - resign
Hayes - Drop
Porter - Drop
Suckling - Drop
Smith - Drop
Buku - Re-rookie

[azabob]

Do you think he has too much of the Will Minson's about him and doesn't suit Bevo's mantra?

Yeah I do. 2020 was the perfect year to play him for one or two games and we didn't.

I can't see him getting a game in 2021.

[Hotdog60]

Yeah I do. 2020 was the perfect year to play him for one or two games and we didn't.

I can't see him getting a game in 2021.

I hope he can work on being more mobile and I wouldn't have minded us rotating players through the list in 2020 as the threat of a shorten list it would make decisions easier now if players on the fringe got bigger blocks to see if they are worth persisting with.
Although the game day thread wouldn't be pleasant.:D

[Rocco Jones]

Delist
Porter
Suckling
Hayes
Trengove

That would mean 4 picks about JUH. If JUH is bid at 3, by my maths our two picks at around 48 and 54. If we delist anyone else, we wouldn't have a pick until the end of the draft.

[Axe Man]

I have to disagree with the calls to delist and payout Lloyd. I think it sends a terrible message to current and prospective players that we are willing to cut players under contract. I get that players have all the power and will demand trades under contract aka Dunkley, but I think we want to be seen as an employer of choice.

The only way I would consider this course of action is where the player has failed to meet required standards relating to training, fitness, behaviour, etc.

[Rocco Jones]

I have to disagree with the calls to delist and payout Lloyd. I think it sends a terrible message to current and prospective players that we are willing to cut players under contract. I get that players have all the power and will demand trades under contract aka Dunkley, but I think we want to be seen as an employer of choice.

The only way I would consider this course of action is where the player has failed to meet required standards relating to training, fitness, behaviour, etc.

100%

[soupman]

I have to disagree with the calls to delist and payout Lloyd. I think it sends a terrible message to current and prospective players that we are willing to cut players under contract. I get that players have all the power and will demand trades under contract aka Dunkley, but I think we want to be seen as an employer of choice.

The only way I would consider this course of action is where the player has failed to meet required standards relating to training, fitness, behaviour, etc.

Fair.

I am someone who would be happy to push Lloyd out, so to play devils advocate:

We love to give "good characters" endless chances. We gave Lynch and Greene multiple year contracts off very little, Easton Wood just signed a two year contract despite having played maybe 10 actual good games in the last 2-3 seasons. Roarke Smith has been on our list for about 6 years despite never really looking like a senior player. Trengove came to the club on a 3 year deal and it seemed like we didn't even really want him. Callum Porter, who is an undersized inside midfielder who has never looked like being what we need has been on the list for 3 years for about 2 games and seeing as we haven't cut him yet it would seem we are trying to keep him.

I get the argument that cutting Lloyd makes the playing group feel a bit more vulnerable, but maybe that's the kick up the arse an underperforming and at times unwilling playing group needs? Bailey Dale as an example might pull his finger out if he thinks every year he has to earn his contract. Certainly our loyalty to our players hasn't helped us attract anyone decent, maybe it is a reason why we seem to grab fringe guys like Hannan, Lloyd, Crozier as they can see the security someone who is a good bloke and a AFLish talent can get with us, but is that making us better?

[Axe Man]

Fair.

I am someone who would be happy to push Lloyd out, so to play devils advocate:

We love to give "good characters" endless chances. We gave Lynch and Greene multiple year contracts off very little, Easton Wood just signed a two year contract despite having played maybe 10 actual good games in the last 2-3 seasons. Roarke Smith has been on our list for about 6 years despite never really looking like a senior player. Trengove came to the club on a 3 year deal and it seemed like we didn't even really want him. Callum Porter, who is an undersized inside midfielder who has never looked like being what we need has been on the list for 3 years for about 2 games and seeing as we haven't cut him yet it would seem we are trying to keep him.

I get the argument that cutting Lloyd makes the playing group feel a bit more vulnerable, but maybe that's the kick up the arse an underperforming and at times unwilling playing group needs? Bailey Dale as an example might pull his finger out if he thinks every year he has to earn his contract. Certainly our loyalty to our players hasn't helped us attract anyone decent, maybe it is a reason why we seem to grab fringe guys like Hannan, Lloyd, Crozier as they can see the security someone who is a good bloke and a AFLish talent can get with us, but is that making us better?

That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection. Overruled.

I don't disagree with our tendency to hang on to players who are a low percentage chance of becoming regular best 22 members too long. But that issue should be addressed before handing out the contracts. Once signed I would prefer we honour them.

Also I don't share the view that Lloyd was as bad as some are making out. Forward lines this season were tough gigs across the league. Cavarra hasn't shown a fraction of what Lloyd has yet somehow he's a preferred option?

[bulldogtragic]

Whilst I was, and still am, against it. We paid out Trav Cloke (where he announced his retirement in the side of a road) to keep Honeychurch a few years back. So the club has the capacity and recent history to pay out players before the last list lodgement. I'm not advocating it, I'm just saying we've done it under Bevo & Grant.

[soupman]

Cavarra hasn't shown a fraction of what Lloyd has yet somehow he's a preferred option?

Lloyd is certainly a better proven player, but we have an abundance of mid sized forwards who primarily earn their shots through their ability to take a mark on the move and from handball receives. They are both Lloyds main two avenues to goal but also Bailey Dales, Mitch Hannans and Mitch Wallis is kind of a more stationary version of those guys as well.

Cavarra may very well fall in the same category, but he was recruited to the club with the idea that he could be a pacy crumbing forward who applied defensive pressure. I'm not sure his form has demonstrated he is that guy, but Lloyd best case scenario is more of what we have while Cavarra is something we need.

I'm pretty meh on both fwiw and would be happy to cut both (I'm happy to keep Lloyd as he is contracted, but i don't think he makes us better and would rather that list spot went to someone who could).

[Ozza]

Lloyd won our goal kicking in 2019, and although he may not make the first 22 picked right now, he is certainly a reasonable replacement should Wallis/Dale/Hannan become injured. You'd only be 'paying out' the last year of a contract for a player who is no chance to play or you are down to absolute final list spots. Lloyd isn't close to bottom few on the list. And if I am recalling correctly, Lloyd hasn't really been prone to injury - his injury this year was an impact injury from a tackle - he doesn't get soft tissue injuries, whereas Cavarra has/does.

[The Doctor]

Scharenberg Anyone?

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-best-delisted-players-signings-delisted-free-agents-trade-news-matthew-scharenberg-cam-mccarthy-majak-daw-billy-gowers/news-story/fb6f9eab44fb40bc70d011fcad7e4a23

Matthew Scharenberg

He has dealt with a horror run of injury since being taken with Pick 6 in the 201 draft, but his potential is clear. To add to that, the defender is still only 25. He was undersized for the centre half-back role but still seemed to thrive on the challenge of taking on tall forwards. His most recent knee reconstruction came at the end of 2018 after a promising season for the Pies. The Western Bulldogs are in need of another genuine defender who can help tackle the talls and Scharenberg would be a brilliant selection given his age and desire to play on.

[Topdog]

Lloyd is certainly a better proven player, but we have an abundance of mid sized forwards who primarily earn their shots through their ability to take a mark on the move and from handball receives. They are both Lloyds main two avenues to goal but also Bailey Dales, Mitch Hannans and Mitch Wallis is kind of a more stationary version of those guys as well.

Cavarra may very well fall in the same category, but he was recruited to the club with the idea that he could be a pacy crumbing forward who applied defensive pressure. I'm not sure his form has demonstrated he is that guy, but Lloyd best case scenario is more of what we have while Cavarra is something we need.

I'm pretty meh on both fwiw and would be happy to cut both (I'm happy to keep Lloyd as he is contracted, but i don't think he makes us better and would rather that list spot went to someone who could).

Agree that we have an abundance of similar types with none of them being elite so certainly not against dropping one. Giving Lloyd multiple years was a mistake but I'd be disappointed if we cut him whilst under contract.

Did we offer him up in trade week?

[bornadog]

Scharenberg Anyone?

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-best-delisted-players-signings-delisted-free-agents-trade-news-matthew-scharenberg-cam-mccarthy-majak-daw-billy-gowers/news-story/fb6f9eab44fb40bc70d011fcad7e4a23

Matthew Scharenberg

He has dealt with a horror run of injury since being taken with Pick 6 in the 201 draft, but his potential is clear. To add to that, the defender is still only 25. He was undersized for the centre half-back role but still seemed to thrive on the challenge of taking on tall forwards. His most recent knee reconstruction came at the end of 2018 after a promising season for the Pies. The Western Bulldogs are in need of another genuine defender who can help tackle the talls and Scharenberg would be a brilliant selection given his age and desire to play on.

I was one that wanted him in during his draft year. Wasn't he more of a midfielder in the past?

[Axe Man]

I was one that wanted him in during his draft year. Wasn't he more of a midfielder in the past?

Thank goodness we didn't listen to you!;)

He's always played back, but I think it was thought he could have become a mid and spent some time there at under 18 level.

Do we want another undersized KPD? I can imagine us tearing our hair out after been beaten in the air by the 200cm KPFs once again next year. However, if his body is sound could he be an upgrade on Cordy?

[soupman]

Do not want Scharenberg. We have enough mediocre kind of talls already in Cordy, Gardner and Wood. I want someone who can lock down the big guys freeing up Keath or can be a good aerial option (maybe Young).

[The Doctor]

Do not want Scharenberg. We have enough mediocre kind of talls already in Cordy, Gardner and Wood. I want someone who can lock down the big guys freeing up Keath or can be a good aerial option (maybe Young).

Like Carlisle?

[bornadog]

Thank goodness we didn't listen to you!;)

He's always played back, but I think it was thought he could have become a mid and spent some time there at under 18 level.

Do we want another undersized KPD? I can imagine us tearing our hair out after been beaten in the air by the 200cm KPFs once again next year. However, if his body is sound could he be an upgrade on Cordy?

Yeah the alternate goes ok. :D


Do not want Scharenberg. We have enough mediocre kind of talls already in Cordy, Gardner and Wood. I want someone who can lock down the big guys freeing up Keath or can be a good aerial option (maybe Young).
Agreed

[soupman]

Like Carlisle?

Yeah. I proposed him a few times. Not sure I love him, but he achieves both and would be cheap.

[comrade]

Suckling, Trengove and Porter all delisted.

[bornadog]

Suckling, Trengove and Porter all delisted.

No real surprises there.

[comrade]

Our whipping boy options are getting slim with Gowers and Suckling gone.

[bornadog]

Bulldogs announce further list changes (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/836659)

Western Bulldogs trio Jackson Trengove, Matt Suckling and Callum Porter have been advised they will not be offered new contracts for the 2021 season.

The Bulldogs made the latest changes to their 2021 playing list following the completion of the Trade Period.

Suckling spent five seasons at VU Whitten Oval, playing 76 games and kicking 34 goals in the red, white and blue after crossing from Hawthorn, where he was a dual premiership player over 102 matches.

Trengove played 33 games for the Bulldogs over the last three years, including one game in 2020. He crossed to the Kennel at the end of 2017, after eight seasons and 153 games with Port Adelaide.

Porter played his sole game for the Club in Round 8 this season, after arriving with pick 74 in the 2017 NAB AFL Draft.

“These are difficult decisions to make, because we’re dealing with quality individuals who cannot be questioned for their hard work and dedication,” said Bulldogs’ General Manager of List and Recruiting, Sam Power.

“They represented the Club with pride and gave their all, and we are grateful for their efforts.

“We wish them every success for whatever their futures hold, and they know they are always welcome back at the Club.”

The Bulldogs farewelled Billy Gowers, Fergus Greene and Brad Lynch prior to the Trade Period, while Tory Dickson announced his retirement in September.

[bornadog]

Our whipping boy options are getting slim with Gowers and Suckling gone.

There is always Hayes and Gardner :D

[bulldogtragic]

By my count we need one more delisting, or three more if the AFEL reduce list sizes by two.

Cavarra, Duryea & Hayes all somewhat nervous. Although the Cavarra article is a good sign for him.


8 Incoming: Treloar, Martin, Hannan, 5 draft picks with draft points to secure JUH without deficit
7 Outgoing: Dickson, Suckling, JT, Lynch, Greene, Gowers, Porter (Young was on the rookie list)

[comrade]

Roarke, Cavarra and Hayes are hanging in by the skin of their teeth.

[bulldogtragic]

Roarke, Cavarra and Hayes are hanging in by the skin of their teeth.

I wonder if we will make changes to rookie list, less Young. That is: Sweet & Gardner (confirmed) plus Roarke & Khamis to round out 4. You'd think Roarke & Khamis would've been named by now.

[bornadog]

By my count we need one more delisting, or three more if the AFEL reduce list sizes by two.

Cavarra, Duryea & Hayes all somewhat nervous. Although the Cavarra article is a good sign for him.

We have 37 on the list, plus JUH.

Depends how many we want to draft, as JUH takes up our one draft pick.

[bulldogtragic]

We have 37 on the list, plus JUH.

Depends how many we want to draft, as JUH takes up our one draft pick.

We need to use all five 5 picks worth of points. That means we need to have 5 vacancies on the list. Say we only take 4 picks with 4 vacancies. Then we forfeit all the draft points on the 5th pick. It's not so much about drafting, it's about being permitted to use the points as to avoid a 2021 deficit.

We can re-draft or elevate rookies if we wanted. But we need the picks.

[DOG GOD]

Well Schache and Lew Young are lucky they’re contracted, otherwise they’d be on the tip with Trengove and Co.

[bornadog]

We need to use all five 5 picks worth of points. That means we need to have 5 vacancies on the list. Say we only take 4 picks with 4 vacancies. Then we forfeit all the draft points on the 5th pick. It's not so much about drafting, it's about being permitted to use the points as to avoid a 2021 deficit.

We can re-draft or elevate rookies if we wanted. But we need the picks.

Thanks BT, we did miss you on the forum - especially for stuff like this.

Do we count Rookies? I guess not.

We only have three uncontracted players now:

Cavarra, Duryea and Hayes.

Maybe we delist and then relist the guys we want to keep, or switch them to rookie list.

[bulldogtragic]

Thanks BT, we did miss you on the forum - especially for stuff like this.

Happy to help my friend.

On the three lads left: Cavarra, Hayes & Duryea, we must be hoping that the AFEL come back with some wiggle room. We obviously must want these guys, and will wait to the very last second to make the call on any of them. On the flip side, if a lot of clubs are going very thin at the draft this year, there's a decent chance of re-drafting them or otherwise getting them back.

[Bulldog Joe]

Thanks BT, we did miss you on the forum - especially for stuff like this.

Do we count Rookies? I guess not.

We only have three uncontracted players now:

Cavarra, Duryea and Hayes.

Maybe we delist and then relist the guys we want to keep, or switch them to rookie list.

I really can't understand why Hayes wasn't added to the lot announced.

Some seem to think Cavarra offers something, but I don't see it. As mature agers the really needed to make an immediate impact and in my view they have not done enough.

Much better to look at untried who could have upside, than retain guys who are depth at best.

[bornadog]

I really can't understand why Hayes wasn't added to the lot announced.

Some seem to think Cavarra offers something, but I don't see it. As mature agers the really needed to make an immediate impact and in my view they have not done enough.

Much better to look at untried who could have upside, than retain guys who are depth at best.

I would only keep Duryea, as we need some maturity in the backline, and it seems he directs it when he is in there.

[G-Mo77]

I'd only keep Cavara out of those 3 even after the delistings today.

[Doc26]

I'd only keep Cavara out of those 3 even after the delistings today.

I'd be keeping Cavarra and Duryea.

Actually I'm not sure why there's not more support for Duryea on the forum. Aside from his misfortune with injuries this year, I see him as a pretty solid player for us.

Cavarra I just don't see that he's had a fair run at it yet, again with injuries halting his opportunities. With that said, 2021 would be his last year to impress.

Hayes, might be cheap insurance but he's not AFL standard and for mine would be the one to move on.

[mjp]

Actually I'm not sure why there's not more support for Duryea on the forum. Aside from his misfortune with injuries this year, I see him as a pretty solid player for us.



Duryea is awesome. A defender who can defend. Excellent player!

[GVGjr]

I'd be keeping Cavarra and Duryea.

Actually I'm not sure why there's not more support for Duryea on the forum. Aside from his misfortune with injuries this year, I see him as a pretty solid player for us.

Cavarra I just don't see that he's had a fair run at it yet, again with injuries halting his opportunities. With that said, 2021 would be his last year to impress.

Hayes, might be cheap insurance but he's not AFL standard and for mine would be the one to move on.

Duryea is a very good player, not sure why more don't rate him

[Rocket Science]

Duryea is a very good player, not sure why more don't rate him

Suspect the coach agrees and he survives, not least of all because we've so few like him.

[whythelongface]

Duryea is a very good player, not sure why more don't rate him

Agree. Hadn’t even crossed my mind to delist him. Think his experience is important moving forward. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if he was part of the reason for the significant improvement in Williams.

[josie]

IMO Cavarra has hardly had opportunity at senior level. From what I’ve seen at vfl level & considering our dearth of small forwards he either should have got more opportunities or should have another year to prove it at senior level. I think he might do ok until hopefully Weightman steps up and/or we find a smart small forward to draft or steal from another club.

[FrediKanoute]

I would only keep Duryea, as we need some maturity in the backline, and it seems he directs it when he is in there.

Read somewhere that in the time Dureya has been with us he has managed just 16 games. He has been injured a lot!

[GVGjr]

Read somewhere that in the time Dureya has been with us he has managed just 16 games. He has been injured a lot!

It's actually 17 but just 3 this year. Averaged 19 possessions a game in 2019

[1eyedog]

Duryea is a very good player, not sure why more don't rate him

Tendency to go to ground.

[Bulldog Joe]

I also rate Duryea and would like to keep him around, but his injury record does not augur well.

List spots are a premium so I think we need to delist, with perhaps redrafting or a rookie spot if he remains available.

I would do the same with Sam Lloyd and hope someone else picks him up. Giving him a rookie spot is all I would offer to Lloyd to meet his contract.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We need to use all five 5 picks worth of points. That means we need to have 5 vacancies on the list. Say we only take 4 picks with 4 vacancies. Then we forfeit all the draft points on the 5th pick. It's not so much about drafting, it's about being permitted to use the points as to avoid a 2021 deficit.

We can re-draft or elevate rookies if we wanted. But we need the picks.

Does this change things BT?


https://www.afl.com.au/news/524802/swans-pies-among-clubs-buoyed-by-late-draft-rule-tweak

SYDNEY, Collingwood, Port Adelaide and the Western Bulldogs are among the clubs who have been given a boost by a rule change on the eve of the NAB AFL Draft.

Clubs have been informed that a significant change has been applied to this year's bidding system in light of the reduction in list sizes and the trading of future picks last year.


Under normal AFL rules, clubs who are matching bids for northern Academy, Next Generation Academy and father-son players are only allowed to use draft points from the amount of picks that is equal to the number of their available list spots.

This has been to stop clubs from stockpiling late draft picks with the intention of only using them to pay for highly rated draftees, even if they had more picks at the draft than they had list spots available, which was an early loophole of the live bidding system.

But clubs will not be bound by that rule at next month's national draft after the League gave clearance for clubs to use points from draft picks even if they are not going to use the selections to draft players.

In essence it means that the Swans, who will be forced to match bids for Academy pair Braeden Campbell and Errol Gulden, could theoretically take six picks to the draft but only pick up three players, but use the remaining selections for points purposes.

Although a subtle tweak, it is an important change in a draft year that is so heavily filtered with players already tied to clubs via Academies and under father-son links.

It will also benefit the Western Bulldogs, who have grabbed a number of extra selections to be able to pay for a possible No.1 matched bid for Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, as well as the Power, who hold six picks and have ties to NGA talent Lachie Jones and father-son Taj Schofield.


Where in previous years the Power would have only been able to use points from the picks commensurate to how many list spots the club had available, this year they could essentially grab their two linked players and use the rest of their draft hand to help cover the points cost.

The Magpies, with speedy tall midfielder Reef McInnes, and Hawthorn, with line-breaker Connor Downie, are other clubs with Academy ties who will be waiting to see where bids fall, while Fremantle (Joel Western, Brandon Walker), Brisbane (Blake Coleman, Carter Michael) and Essendon (Cody Brand, Josh Eyre) are others clubs who also have their eyes on Academy players.

The AFL will revert to its usual rule next year, having allowed the clubs a one-off change given some had prepared for matching bids by already trading out future selections during last year's exchange period.

It informed clubs last week that lists will be cut to a minimum of 37 players and a maximum of 44 players, inclusive of rookies (category A and B)

[Mofra]

The list spot rule helps us a lot. Duryea is a no-brainer for another year, he's our only small defender that can actually lock down an opponent.
I'd give Cav one more year - there is something to be said for having someone on the list who has had to spend years fighting and scrapping for their chance at AFL level. Still think Hannan will be the closest thing to a small forward we play regularly during the year.

I still don't quite see it with Hayes and hopefully VDM builds his tank to take wing rotations in 2021.

[comrade]

Perfect. This means we can sell off pick 26 for multiple later picks (for example Hawthorn who have 45, 46 & 49) and we'll more than cover a bid at pick 1.

So not only do we get access to one of the best kids, we also get to exploit the old loophole to do it. *chef's kiss*

[bulldogtragic]

Wow. Huge result for us if we want to keep all of Cavarra, Hayes & Duryea. Usually a last second rule change hurts us, but this helps big time if the club wants these guys.

There's 7 players off the main list. There's 3 players on the main list. So there's 4 vacancies with a likely reduction of two p, shrinking list sizes. So right now we have likely two picks, but get to use the equivalent point to Pick 16 without having the spots open. That's massive.

So right now you'd think it's JUH & MacPherson as our two picks. I wonder if we want another pick though.

BAD, please leave the AFEL rule manipulation alone on this one... :D

[bulldogtragic]

Perfect. This means we can sell off pick 26 for multiple later picks (for example Hawthorn who have 45, 46 & 49) and we'll more than cover a bid at pick 1.

So not only do we get access to one of the best kids, we also get to exploit the old loophole to do it. *chef's kiss*

I wonder if we can (allowed to) trade juicy picks this year, for say equal draft points even, but also get a future pick? Manipulate the hell out of the rule for this year AND strengthen our draft hand next year.

[Axe Man]

Wow. Huge result for us if we want to keep all of Cavarra, Hayes & Duryea. Usually a last second rule change hurts us, but this helps big time if the club wants these guys.

There's 7 players off the main list. There's 3 players on the main list. So there's 4 vacancies with a likely reduction of two p, shrinking list sizes. So right now we have likely two picks, but get to use the equivalent point to Pick 16 without having the spots open. That's massive.

So right now you'd think it's JUH & MacPherson as our two picks. I wonder if we want another pick though.

BAD, please leave the AFEL rule manipulation alone on this one... :D

Seems likely we knew this yesterday when we announced just the 3 delistings. My money is on us keeping the other 5 players not officially re-signed now and just taking JUH and MacPherson as you say and perhaps Raak as a category B.

I guess if you are going to have a boring draft at least pick up the best player in it.

[bornadog]

Wow. Huge result for us if we want to keep all of Cavarra, Hayes & Duryea. Usually a last second rule change hurts us, but this helps big time if the club wants these guys.

There's 7 players off the main list. There's 3 players on the main list. So there's 4 vacancies with a likely reduction of two p, shrinking list sizes. So right now we have likely two picks, but get to use the equivalent point to Pick 16 without having the spots open. That's massive.

So right now you'd think it's JUH & MacPherson as our two picks. I wonder if we want another pick though.

BAD, please leave the AFEL rule manipulation alone on this one... :D

Haha, I won't. :D

BTW, it is on field rules that I am passionate about not changing

[comrade]

I would still delist Hayes and take an extra selection to the draft.

[hujsh]

I would still delist Hayes and take an extra selection to the draft.

Hard to imagine him getting a game next year. Amazed he made the cut so far

[ledge]

I would still delist Hayes and take an extra selection to the draft.

Nothing against Hayes but we do have too many of his like I front of him

What position would we look at , we have a great list , maybe a full back type ?

[azabob]

Nothing against Hayes but we do have too many of his like I front of him

What position would we look at , we have a great list , maybe a full back type ?

Not sure how posters continually say we have a great list?

We finished middle of the road the last two years. Finished in no mans land.

Our forward line and back line is average and our midfield is above average but has it troubles.

[comrade]

Not sure how posters continually say we have a great list?

We finished middle of the road the last two years. Finished in no mans land.

Our forward line and back line is average and our midfield is above average but has it troubles.

The list has potential to be very good but I agree with you, lots of gaps and we're relying on plenty of ifs, buts and maybes.

IF Jamarra becomes a star.

IF English reaches his potential.

IF Young or Gardner can become AFL standard key defenders.

IF Treloar settles into our midfield mix.

IF Bruce can return to his pre-2020 form.

etc etc

MAYBE we become a true premiership contender again.

NONE of those are givens.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Our list has always looked good on paper and during the offseason that's all we remember as there are no games to remind us just how average and inconsistent some players can be.

[Grantysghost]

Not sure how posters continually say we have a great list?

We finished middle of the road the last two years. Finished in no mans land.

Our forward line and back line is average and our midfield is above average but has it troubles.

It felt like keeping Dunkley somehow made us better. Your points are valid.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

During the year the main concerns on our list were:

1. Natural pressuring/crumbing small foward - Haven't addressed
2. An experienced ruck to help English - Tick
3. A KPD to go on the giants to free up Keath - Haven't addressed
4. Speedy mid - Tick

So we've addressed 2 out of 4 and 1 of those only because a certain player fell in our lap. Let's face it, if we didn't get Treloar, our trade period is extremely underwhelming.

[comrade]

During the year the main concerns on our list were:

1. Natural pressuring/crumbing small foward - Haven't addressed
3. A KPD to go on the giants to free up Keath - Haven't addressed

So we've addressed 2 out of 4 and 1 of those only because a certain player fell in our lap. Let's face it, if we didn't get Treloar, our trade period is extremely underwhelming.

I'm still hopeful that we have players on the list that can make a good fist at both these roles.

1. I wouldn't be surprised if Garcia jumps out over the pre-season and puts his hand up for this role. I get Dahl vibes from him.
2. Young is still...young...and has the frame to go with the big guys. Needs to fill out and have a monster pre-season but I hope we back him in and pump some games into him.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm still hopeful that we have players on the list that can make a good fist at both these roles.

1. I wouldn't be surprised if Garcia jumps out over the pre-season and puts his hand up for this role. I get Dahl vibes from him.
2. Young is still...young...and has the frame to go with the big guys. Needs to fill out and have a monster pre-season but I hope we back him in and pump some games into him.

I'm hopeful on those two but also mindful not to place too much hope on a kid who hasn't played a single AFL game and another who has been in the system a few years now yet can't get a game in the seniors ahead of Gardner. I do like the look of Garcia and if we can add him and Jamarra to the forward line, suddenly it doesn't look so slow.

It'd also be nice if Weightman can take a leap. I didn't really like what I saw this season but he does look to have that natural goal sense. We're certainly not light on for forward options. We just don't really have anyone decent. We are however quite light on down back. I worry if Keath goes down with an injury we are severly exposed down back. Moreso now with Trengove off the list.

[ledge]

Not sure how posters continually say we have a great list?

We finished middle of the road the last two years. Finished in no mans land.

Our forward line and back line is average and our midfield is above average but has it troubles.

Obviously some posters think we do and some don’t, I guess the proof either way comes out in the next year or two.
I think we have a great list If the players are played where they are best suited and the players also keep improving.
Speed seems to be our biggest problem but when we got the ball out of half back we were extremely quick , I see Vandemeer , Treloar and Weightman as being quick and helping that problem .
The ruck was a huge problem and that has been tackled with Martin . I don’t think we were far off last year if we won the ruck or nullified it at least.
With Martin in and giving English more around the ground time that’s huge he has a large tank and we have seen him mark well in the back line and foreword line . He reads the play very well.
Backline is my concern but if Naughton doesn’t need to play forward he would be a top CHB.
Young I imagine coming good.
And Bruce was originally a CHB we can rotate them during games if need be.

Of course lists will have those borderline players but as a list I would say we have the most who could come in and do a role at AFL Level.
We have definitely improved the list already and I believe we are set to be in a premiership window.
Looking forward to 2021.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Unless we pickup a delisted backman, such as Daw, does the delisting of Trengove indicate a large amount of faith in Young or that Naughton might swing back? We're very thin for key backs right now.

[Grantysghost]

Unless we pickup a delisted backman, such as Daw, does the delisting of Trengove indicate a large amount of faith in Young or that Naughton might swing back? We're very thin for key backs right now.

It was of interest to me the pay cut for the players was only 3.5 percent. This was achieved basically via redundancies with guys like JT and Suckers let go partly when their salary didn't fit into the new budget, unless others took more of a cut. Of course there are list management decisions here as well, not saying it's the only reason they were let go.

Be a few jaded players I reckon, I know at least one of these was a big supporter of the PA.

[bornadog]

During the year the main concerns on our list were:

1. Natural pressuring/crumbing small foward - Haven't addressed
2. An experienced ruck to help English - Tick
3. A KPD to go on the giants to free up Keath - Haven't addressed
4. Speedy mid - Tick

So we've addressed 2 out of 4 and 1 of those only because a certain player fell in our lap. Let's face it, if we didn't get Treloar, our trade period is extremely underwhelming.

Hannan plays small and likes to crumb. He is not a leading forward like Dale, Lloyd types.

[Rocket Science]

Hannan plays small and likes to crumb. He is not a leading forward like Dale, Lloyd types.

I'm confident that won't stop up putting it on his head with regularity.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Duryea has signed on for 2021

[Rocco Jones]

I’m in the rate Doc group.

[G-Mo77]

Duryea has signed on for 2021

Meh on this. Healthy he is a decent enough fit but hasn't been. I'd rather the list spot open.

Does Sam Lloyd have another year on his contract. He's another I see no point in keeping?

[Axe Man]

Meh on this. Healthy he is a decent enough fit but hasn't been. I'd rather the list spot open.

Does Sam Lloyd have another year on his contract. He's another I see no point in keeping?

https://i.postimg.cc/W3JXTqzP/picard-facepalm.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[ledge]

I am hoping we do deal with Bont early I don’t want any chance of him leaving.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

How quick is Garcia?

I don't remember reading anything standing out about his pace?

[bornadog]

https://i.postimg.cc/W3JXTqzP/picard-facepalm.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Only if we had a thread for contracts. :D:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[soupman]

How quick is Garcia?

I don't remember reading anything standing out about his pace?

My impression is he is zippy without being proper quick. Maybe Dahlhaus like in that he is quick in traffic and intensity instead of the Vandermeer/JJ type of fast in space with an ability to stride down the wing.

[G-Mo77]

Oh excuse me smart arses. You could have just said something like yeah he is.

[Axe Man]

Oh excuse me smart arses. You could have just said something like yeah he is.

Sorry G, it's a running Player Contract List Thread joke that I am the butt of.

[bornadog]

Oh excuse me smart arses. You could have just said something like yeah he is.


Sorry G, it's a running Player Contract List Thread joke that I am the butt of.

Yeah, we stir up Axeman about his thread. (which he does a great job with )

PS: Lloyd does have a year to go.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm happy with keeping Doc. He was close to our best in the loss to the saints. He's only 29 too so he's still got plenty of good footy left if he can stay on the park.

btw we should keep track of these signings somewhere. Always good to know when someone has re-signed/coming out of contract.

[Mofra]

Our small lockdown defenders:

Duryea.

There is some hope Ewan McPherson develops into that type of player isn't there? We don't need to get any younger so Doc getting another year is a no-brainer for mine.

[Grantysghost]

Sorry G, it's a running Player Contract List Thread joke that I am the butt of.

Can you pin it to the top of each new thread?

[jeemak]

Axe that contract thread is more trouble than it's worth!

[bulldogtragic]

Axe that contract thread is more trouble than it's worth!

Yep. You’d need to be crazy to do it.

[Bulldog Joe]

Not sure how posters continually say we have a great list?

We finished middle of the road the last two years. Finished in no mans land.

Our forward line and back line is average and our midfield is above average but has it troubles.

I know it is not popular, but I believe we have a great list and my concern is the coach doesn't want to adapt to the list, but prefers to try to make the list adapt to his preference and his desire to reinvent the game.

[azabob]

I know it is not popular, but I believe we have a great list and my concern is the coach doesn't want to adapt to the list, but prefers to try to make the list adapt to his preference and his desire to reinvent the game.

I think there is a thread buried in the woof archives on this very topic.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I know it is not popular, but I believe we have a great list and my concern is the coach doesn't want to adapt to the list, but prefers to try to make the list adapt to his preference and his desire to reinvent the game.

He was praised as a breath of fresh air in doing the exact opposite when he started

[GVGjr]

Not sure how posters continually say we have a great list?

We finished middle of the road the last two years. Finished in no mans land.

Our forward line and back line is average and our midfield is above average but has it troubles.

Our list is fine and it's certainly not the problem that many people think
If it's no good then why haven't we made more changes with the playing list?

I think we need to stop inventing excuses to explain poor results and start performing to our abilities and we will achieve better results

We have enough quality players

[GVGjr]

Would there be any interest in Mason Wood? Just read and article that he is injury free and training hard hoping to get a spot on a senior list

[bulldogtragic]

Would there be any interest in Mason Wood? Just read and article that he is injury free and training hard hoping to get a spot on a senior list

To play alongside Naughton, Bruce, Schache, JUH and maybe Young as 192+cm tall forwards?

[EasternWest]

Would there be any interest in Mason Wood? Just read and article that he is injury free and training hard hoping to get a spot on a senior list

Is he flying? If he isn't flying, if he isn't having his best preseason yet, if the boys don't love the way he goes about it, then I'm not interested.

[GVGjr]

To play alongside Naughton, Bruce, Schache, JUH and maybe Young as 192+cm tall forwards?

I saw him more as a another option for the wing

[Bulldog Joe]

He was praised as a breath of fresh air in doing the exact opposite when he started

While that is true, the past 4 years have been an under-achievement.

[bulldogtragic]

Breaking down like this, if the assumption is Raak doesn't get a bid:

38 Main List - 34 already contracted, JUH & MacPherson - Last two spots Hayes & Cavarra, or one and another pick, or one and a DFA
4 Rookie List A - Sweet, Gardner, *Smith, Live Pick
2 Rookie List B - Khamis, *Raak

The maximum list numbers.

Say Jetta or Stack or some DFA talent is desired. Hayes can always be delisted and picked up with our one live pick in the rookie draft if he gets to our pick. A somewhat safe bet.

Then it's:

In: JUH, MacPherson, Raak, *DFA, Treloar, Martin, Hannan, Hayes (RL)
Out: Dickson (ret), JT, Suckling, Greene, Lynch, Porter, Gowers, Young, Hayes (ML)

That's an impressive 8 player list turnover. Into 6 players and a Cat B after the list size reduction.

[soupman]

Khamis was upgraded to cat A basically the same the night he was drafted. I don't think you can downgrade any rookies back to cat B.

[jeemak]

While that is true, the past 4 years have been an under-achievement.

Not sure how many rebuilding sides make two out of four finals series.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Khamis was upgraded to cat A basically the same the night he was drafted. I don't think you can downgrade any rookies back to cat B.

I don't think anyone has been able to explain this. It was a truly mystifying event.

[azabob]

Our list is fine and it's certainly not the problem that many people think
If it's no good then why haven't we made more changes with the playing list?

I think we need to stop inventing excuses to explain poor results and start performing to our abilities and we will achieve better results

We have enough quality players

Historically you have been a strong advocate for the club not cutting the list deep enough.

What excuses do you see Beveridge inventing for our poor results?

I also use to think our list was better than it was.

I truly went into 2017 and 2018 thinking we'd be a top four team. I even held out hope we'd be a top six team in 2020 but if anything we went backwards compared to 2019.

If its not the list - what needs to change for us to be top four?

[GVGjr]

Historically you have been a strong advocate for the club not cutting the list deep enough.

What excuses do you see Beveridge inventing for our poor results?

I also use to think our list was better than it was.

I truly went into 2017 and 2018 thinking we'd be a top four team. I even held out hope we'd be a top six team in 2020 but if anything we went backwards compared to 2019.

If its not the list - what needs to change for us to be top four?

I see the reasons being offered here like the hubs, no VFL and a young an inexperienced list and it never quite washes with me because it's roughly the same challenges for all teams over a cycle of a few years

I've highlighted the area's that Bevo and the coaches need to rethink throughout the season but I suspect we are resolute with our approach and we will have to wait this one out.
I just don't believe the quality of the list is stopping us from progressing deeper in finals but it can always get better.
2021 shapes as a big year for us, a real yardstick season.

[The Underdog]

What’s the rules about rookie upgrades now? Roarke has been on the rookie list for 3 years (well 6), which I thought was the cut off before you had to promote or delist. Do we need to make that call on Roarke or have things changed?

[Mofra]

Would there be any interest in Mason Wood? Just read and article that he is injury free and training hard hoping to get a spot on a senior list
He is about 15% more frustrating than Schache, without Schache's height and huge tank.

I'd consider a KPD DFA though if there was anyone decent. I'm surprised it never 'clicked' for Sam Durdin - first rounder KPD that just never put it all together. Part of North's 11-player cull.

[GVGjr]

He is about 15% more frustrating than Schache, without Schache's height and huge tank.

I'd consider a KPD DFA though if there was anyone decent. I'm surprised it never 'clicked' for Sam Durdin - first rounder KPD that just never put it all together. Part of North's 11-player cull.

I saw Durdin out bodied by Fergus Greene a couple of season back in a marking contest so you're right he just never reached his potential

[bulldogtragic]

Khamis was upgraded to cat A basically the same the night he was drafted. I don't think you can downgrade any rookies back to cat B.

An assumption on my part. We’ve had a max list and Buku. The club hasn’t been clear how we’ve done it. My best guess is he’s a Cat B.

[bulldogtragic]

What’s the rules about rookie upgrades now? Roarke has been on the rookie list for 3 years (well 6), which I thought was the cut off before you had to promote or delist. Do we need to make that call on Roarke or have things changed?

Good pick up, I thought he was on two. I know some clubs are asking for dispensation to work around rookie list spots, Brisbane got it last year to keep Matt Eagles an extra year on their RL. I guess there's an argument we could make to the AFEL. If we can't get it, then we promote him at the expense of Hayes or Cavarra (only uncontracted main list players) and maybe look at rookie listing them at our picks. Or, we cut Roarke and look at picking him with our first pick in the RD. I'd hope there's a gentlemens agreement between the clubs to allow all clubs to pick back their own players, owing to circumstances.

[Axe Man]

An assumption on my part. We’ve had a max list and Buku. The club hasn’t been clear how we’ve done it. My best guess is he’s a Cat B.

I was thinking the same thing. We apparently upgraded him to category A after he was drafted for no good reason, yet as you say this year we had 1 more than the max list. This lead me to the same conclusion - somehow Khamis is a cat B rookie.

[Axe Man]

Good pick up, I thought he was on two. I know some clubs are asking for dispensation to work around rookie list spots, Brisbane got it last year to keep Matt Eagles an extra year on their RL. I guess there's an argument we could make to the AFEL. If we can't get it, then we promote him at the expense of Hayes or Cavarra (only uncontracted main list players) and maybe look at rookie listing them at our picks. Or, we cut Roarke and look at picking him with our first pick in the RD. I'd hope there's a gentlemens agreement between the clubs to allow all clubs to pick back their own players, owing to circumstances.

I think the risk of losing Roarke in the rookie draft is one most of us are willing to take.

[bulldogtragic]

I think the risk of losing Roarke in the rookie draft is one most of us are willing to take.

Most, except Bevo...

[westbulldog]

Since the third man up rule was banned from the start of 2017, Bevo has paid no attention to the value of rucks and that has limited our success.

[The Underdog]

Most, except Bevo...

Imagine if Roarke has a 9-10 year career spent entirely on the rookie list. That’d be an eker category all of its own.

[hujsh]

AFL clubs tonight informed they’ll be able to move two players straight from the senior to rookie list. Those players will avoid draft process, eg being delisted then re-rookied.Helps with list size constraints & salary cap ($80k of rookie contracts sit outside cap)
- Mitch Cleary

[josie]

- Mitch Cleary

So would we pick perhaps 1 or 2 more late draft picks then envisaged as a result of this. And if so who do you reckon we might delist & put on rookie list? Recall Roarke was/is already on rookie list. Hayes? Cavarra? Lloyd? Sweet?

[jeemak]

So would we pick perhaps 1 or 2 more late draft picks then envisaged as a result of this. And if so who do you reckon we might delist & put on rookie list? Recall Roarke was/is already on rookie list. Hayes? Cavarra? Lloyd? Sweet?

Remember we've genuinely been in a club visual blackout since preseason, we've got no idea!

I reckon if anyone Hayes and Lloyd.

[bulldogtragic]

Updated with 2 Direct Rookie Rule:

Breaking down like this as an example, if Bevo wants to keep Roarke, with Hayes & Cavarra to RL (currently uncontracted)

37 Main List - 34 already contracted, JUH & MacPherson - so one more pick (Raak insurance??) OR one DFA (Jetta etc)
5 Rookie List A - Sweet, Gardner, *Smith re-rookied as a live pick (re-sets his 3 years), Hayes & Cavarra direct
2 Rookie List B - Khamis, *Raak

The maximum list number is reached.

Then it's:

In: JUH, MacPherson, Raak, *DFA or Live ND Pick, Treloar, Martin, Hannan, Hayes & Cavarra (RL)
Out: Dickson (ret), JT, Suckling, Greene, Lynch, Porter, Gowers, Young, Hayes & Cavarra (ML)

As a rough guide.

[Bulldog4life]

I'm confident that won't stop up putting it on his head with regularity.

Just to see him reach into the heavens. I think he likes that.

[Bulldog4life]

Historically you have been a strong advocate for the club not cutting the list deep enough.

What excuses do you see Beveridge inventing for our poor results?

I also use to think our list was better than it was.

I truly went into 2017 and 2018 thinking we'd be a top four team. I even held out hope we'd be a top six team in 2020 but if anything we went backwards compared to 2019.

If its not the list - what needs to change for us to be top four?

We are not far off. Beaten by 3 points. Time beat us. Much better than being belted off the park like the year before.

[Danjul]

We are not far off. Beaten by 3 points. Time beat us. Much better than being belted off the park like the year before.
Many people stopped watching the game at 3/4 time. I think St Kilda lost interest too.

After all, it must be boring to always be so far ahead. Gotta feel sorry for them and Carlton, they are probably hoping for more competitive opposition from the Dogs next year (I am).

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We are not far off. Beaten by 3 points. Time beat us. Much better than being belted off the park like the year before.

I think if we had played Geelong or Richmond (grand finalists like GWS were the year prior) we would have been belted off the park. We were awful against the saints. It was extremely disappointing to put out such a performance after the debacle the year before. We certainly do not respond when we say we will. We’re all talk at the moment. This comes back to the list and, as discussed in other threads, having too many nice guys and not enough guys who will cause havoc anytime anywhere. We still haven’t adresse this.

[bornadog]

I think if we had played Geelong or Richmond (grand finalists like GWS were the year prior) we would have been belted off the park. We were awful against the saints. It was extremely disappointing to put out such a performance after the debacle the year before. We certainly do not respond when we say we will. We’re all talk at the moment. This comes back to the list and, as discussed in other threads, having too many nice guys and not enough guys who will cause havoc anytime anywhere. We still haven’t adresse this.

You can't say that, every game is different.

The fact is we lost by 3 points and could have won, but we didn't. Anyone thinking the Saints eased up is just nonsense. It was a final and they were out to win, so why would they just take it easy.

How about some praise for the boys fighting it out instead of just giving in like we did the previous years final.

[SquirrelGrip]

I think the short quarters suited the Saints this year. It will be interesting seeing players like Ryder seeing out a full game next year, particularly with reduced interchange. Conversely our extra midfielders and endurance players should benefit from this. Bevo spoke about the impact of these changes in his breakfast interview this morning.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You can't say that, every game is different.

The fact is we lost by 3 points and could have won, but we didn't. Anyone thinking the Saints eased up is just nonsense. It was a final and they were out to win, so why would they just take it easy.

How about some praise for the boys fighting it out instead of just giving in like we did the previous years final.

Meh I can say it if I want :D

Sure we didn’t fold. I’m not saying the saints went easy, rather I think they tried to save the game which meant their natural game went away and allowed us back in.

But frankly, all season I’ve seen the same lame excuses trotted out: "a little more time and we could have won" or "if we had kicked straighter we would have won" or the often "take out one bad quarter and we win". I hate it. Fact is we’re a middling side and we have lots of work to do to crack the top 4 which is where our list, on paper, should be pushing. We simply need to harden up and work a hell of a lot harder for each other. That’ll go a very long way. I’m not convinced the list has it in them but I haven’t given up hope.

[bornadog]

Meh I can say it if I want :D

Sure we didn’t fold. I’m not saying the saints went easy, rather I think they tried to save the game which meant their natural game went away and allowed us back in.

But frankly, all season I’ve seen the same lame excuses trotted out: "a little more time and we could have won" or "if we had kicked straighter we would have won" or the often "take out one bad quarter and we win". I hate it. Fact is we’re a middling side and we have lots of work to do to crack the top 4 which is where our list, on paper, should be pushing. We simply need to harden up and work a hell of a lot harder for each other. That’ll go a very long way. I’m not convinced the list has it in them but I haven’t given up hope.

We weren't good enough during the season, and there are no excuses, except one - we don't have the right players in the right positions. We are still short a good KPD and time will tell whether our small forwards will be better and whether the ruck situation has been solved.

List management is important and we have shedded some of the players that were not up to it, and like every season there are question marks on some still on the list.

No doubt we will be better next season (on paper) by adding Treloar, Martin, Hannan, and the number one kid in the country JUH and hopefully Bruce gets back to his best.

[comrade]

Roarke Smith, Hayes & Cavarra have been delisted. We've committed to re-drafting Smith, wait and see what we do with the other two.

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/838262

[Axe Man]

Roarke Smith, Hayes & Cavarra have been delisted. We've committed to re-drafting Smith, wait and see what we do with the other two.

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/838262

Keep on ekeing Roarke! Does that mean we will re-draft him to main list or rookie list?

I like that we are keeping our options open for our final rookie list spots.

Any chance that we will ever mention Khamis? I don't think there has ever been an official update on his contract status since we drafted him yet somehow he remains???

[hujsh]

I hope we take a chance on someone other than Hayes as a rookie

[ledge]

Rourke is a very good player , just needs to get a run without injury , I’m glad we kept him on, Cavarra and Hayes are good enough to be on a list, just not ours, we have too many of their type.

[Ozza]

Personally, I think Roarke has much more to offer long term than Cavarra and Hayes - and also Lin Jong who got another contract, so I am happy to hear we are intending on re-drafting him.

[bulldogtragic]

Updated with 2 Direct Rookie Rule:

Breaking down like this as an example, if Bevo wants to keep Roarke, with Hayes & Cavarra to RL (currently uncontracted)

37 Main List - 34 already contracted, JUH & MacPherson - so one more pick (Raak insurance??) OR one DFA (Jetta etc)
5 Rookie List A - Sweet, Gardner, *Smith re-rookied as a live pick (re-sets his 3 years), Hayes & Cavarra direct
2 Rookie List B - Khamis, *Raak

The maximum list number is reached.

Then it's:

In: JUH, MacPherson, Raak, *DFA or Live ND Pick, Treloar, Martin, Hannan, Hayes & Cavarra (RL)
Out: Dickson (ret), JT, Suckling, Greene, Lynch, Porter, Gowers, Young, Hayes & Cavarra (ML)

As a rough guide.

My 3am analysis seems to be the plan.

We can simply "elevate" Roarke to the Main List right now. We have committed to "re-drafting him". That language to me says we will take him with Pick 13 in the Rookie Draft. His three years re-sets.

The comments about Hayes and Cavarra about rookie listing might then be the two 'direct rookies'. Arguably where they should've always been.

So as above, this if it unfolds this way it gives us either a third 'live pick' in the National Draft, or, selecting a DFA.

[Grantysghost]

My 3am analysis seems to be the plan.

We can simply "elevate" Roarke to the Main List right now. We have committed to "re-drafting him". That language to me says we will take him with Pick 13 in the Rookie Draft. His three years re-sets.

The comments about Hayes and Cavarra about rookie listing might then be the two 'direct rookies'. Arguably where they should've always been.

So as above, this if it unfolds this way it gives us either a third 'live pick' in the National Draft, or, selecting a DFA.

Maybe it wasn't the plan until your 3 a.m. analysis :cool:

[Sedat]

I know he cops a bit on here but if Roarke Smith ends up being the 42nd best player on our list, we will have a pretty good list.

[Rocket Science]

Now we probably have the requisite depth, reckon we can veer away from our penchant for honest triers with low ceilings in favour of some braver, shoot-for-the-stars selections with some x-factor and genuine impact?

If our last 3 picked is a ceaseless, meh-inducing merry go round of blokes who never stick before they're inevitably shown the door why not spend some spots on an enigma or two who might just turn into gold, or don't we trust our culture enough?

Otherwise, what's Honeychurch up to next year?

[Axe Man]

Rourke is a very good player , just needs to get a run without injury , I’m glad we kept him on, Cavarra and Hayes are good enough to be on a list, just not ours, we have too many of their type.

Very good is a bit of a stretch. To me Hunter is very good, Libba is very good, Roarke is depth at best. I don't recall too many injuries the last couple of years, yet apart from a good performance here and there he remains unproven. I'm not particularly fussed either way with him but I would be shocked if he ever develops into a regular best 22 player after being on list so long.

I don't think we have a single other player like Cavara on the list, a small crumbing forward. The other small forwards are all a different type to Ben. Whether he is good enough to retain a list position is certainly debatable though.

[bornadog]

Very good is a bit of a stretch. To me Hunter is very good, Libba is very good, Roarke is depth at best. I don't recall too many injuries the last couple of years, yet apart from a good performance here and there he remains unproven. I'm not particularly fussed either way with him but I would be shocked if he ever develops into a regular best 22 player after being on list so long.

I don't think we have a single other player like Cavara on the list, a small crumbing forward. The other small forwards are all a different type to Ben. Whether he is good enough to retain a list position is certainly debatable though.

Roarke had real potential but with two ACLs he lost speed as well as his leap. In his early days he could get up as high as Wood and was seen as a ready made replacement. I agree he is depth at best.

[Sedat]

Of the 3, Roarke is a fair way ahead of Hayes and Cavarra as a depth player who will perform solidly at senior level - I'm very happy for him to have a spot on our rookie list.

I hope we keep our powder dry with the other 2 spots potentially available, and give our recruiting team the chance to unearth a couple of diamonds in the rough in this unique 2020 season where there is bugger-all exposed form at the underage and lower levels.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Now we probably have the requisite depth, reckon we can veer away from our penchant for honest triers with low ceilings in favour of some braver, shoot-for-the-stars selections with some x-factor and genuine impact?

If our last 3 picked is a ceaseless, meh-inducing merry go round of blokes who never stick before they're inevitably shown the door why not spend some spots on an enigma or two who might just turn into gold, or don't we trust our culture enough?

Otherwise, what's Honeychurch up to next year?

Agree RS.

I'd like us to draft some genuine excitement - we have enough 'know what you get' types. Understand that's a very simplistic analysis, but our list could do with some raw talent.

I'd love us to draft a couple of Indigenous talents.

[Vred]

Am I the only one really upset with Cavarra being delisted? He shows more promise than Smith and Hayes to me.

[Grantysghost]

Agree RS.

I'd like us to draft some genuine excitement - we have enough 'know what you get' types. Understand that's a very simplistic analysis, but our list could do with some raw talent.

I'd love us to draft a couple of Indigenous talents.

Agree especially when you look at the standard bearers at the moment in the Tigers. They've done so well from their rookie picks in Lambert, Soldo, Castagna, Short, Baker add to that the speculative pick of Marion Pickett in the mid season draft.
There's some real gold in those left behind if you have the resources and know-how.

[bornadog]

Am I the only one really upset with Cavarra being delisted? He shows more promise than Smith and Hayes to me.

I think he will be rookied

[SquirrelGrip]

Am I the only one really upset with Cavarra being delisted? He shows more promise than Smith and Hayes to me.

I'd prefer us to grab Sydney Stack than Cavarra if we had a choice.

[bulldogtragic]

I'd prefer us to grab Sydney Stack than Cavarra if we had a choice.

We can do both.

[comrade]

Is Stack available?

[bulldogtragic]

Is Stack available?

I've only read it on here.

Others we could look at are Jetta or Cedric Cox. All with speed to add to the list.

[azabob]

Personally I would have made no commitments to any of the three.

We need to add some point of difference as others have mentioned.

I can see us taking Smith with our first rookie pick which will make no sense at all.

[GVGjr]

Roarke Smith, Hayes & Cavarra have been delisted. We've committed to re-drafting Smith, wait and see what we do with the other two.

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/838262

Tough old business isn't it? Smith has done well again to be given another opportunity but in fairness to him he would be an exceptionally hard worker

[josie]

Am I the only one really upset with Cavarra being delisted? He shows more promise than Smith and Hayes to me.

I am very upset. Hope we rookie him.

[bornadog]

I've only read it on here.

Others we could look at are Jetta or Cedric Cox. All with speed to add to the list.

Stack made the cut, so still at Richmond, but not sure he has a contract?

[Axe Man]

Stack made the cut, so still at Richmond, but not sure he has a contract?

Contracted until end of 2021, signed a 2 year extension last year.

[FrediKanoute]

Tough old business isn't it? Smith has done well again to be given another opportunity but in fairness to him he would be an exceptionally hard worker

Is Smith the next Dale/Boyd/Picken?

[hujsh]

Is Smith the next Dale/Boyd/Picken?

Those guys pretty much all came in and made an immediate impact. I think Picken was the oldest making his debut at 23 and he kept Brent Harvey quiet. Roarke is 24 and fringe at best. He has been on a list for a long time so his struggle is quite different to those 3 based more on his body and not being sure he'll be on a list year to year. I wonder if the comparison is apt.

[Axe Man]

Finally a mention of Khamis! The 38 includes both Roarke & Buku, leaving us with as many as 6 free spots if we take an additional category B rookie (Raak).

Locked and loaded: What your club's list will look like in 2021 (https://www.afl.com.au/news/525574/locked-and-loaded-what-your-club-s-list-will-look-like-in-2021)

After the AFL's first list deadline, Mitch Cleary looks at the state of play at all 18 clubs

THE AFL's first list lodgement has been submitted for the off-season, which now provides a clearer picture on how many spots are up for grabs at each club going into 2021.

Under new list constraints announced last week, each club must have a minimum of 37 players and no more than 44 for next year.

Clubs must carry at least 36 senior listed players and if they're intending on hitting only 37 overall, then they can have as few as one rookie.

To reach the maximum of 44, that must include 36-38 senior listed players, four to six standard rookies and two Category B rookies.

Those taken in the NAB AFL Draft are senior listed players.

Clubs have also been granted extra flexibility in building their 2021 lists and can move two players from the 2020 senior to the rookie list for next season. As has been the case in recent years, the first $80,000 of each rookie's contract can sit outside the cap so by freeing up this process, it allows clubs to better manage their finances.

Under the revised Collective Bargaining Agreement, Category B rookies will be allowed to play without the need to be upgraded in 2021.

Mitch Cleary looks at how many players are contracted at each club ahead of the delisted free agency window opening on Thursday and the NAB AFL Draft on December 9.

WESTERN BULLDOGS

Current contracted for 2021: 38

The total of 38 includes Roarke Smith who has been delisted but will return as a rookie for next season. Buku Khamis is expected to return as a Category B rookie, while the Dogs are all chips in on bringing in Next Generation Academy prospect Jamarra Ugle-Hagan at the pointy end of the NAB AFL Draft.

[comrade]

Looks like we'll be taking up to 2 players in the main draft, and then leaving up to 4 spots for rookies who slip through.

[mjp]

Is Stack available?

He's down the bottom of Richmond's priority list.

[Axe Man]

Looks like we'll be taking up to 2 players in the main draft, and then leaving up to 4 spots for rookies who slip through.

We have to take a minimum of 2 players in the national draft (unless we sign a DFA to the main list) as we currently have 34 primary list players and need 36-38.

Interesting to see if we go with 36 or 37 (rather than the full 38) on the main list to take advantage of the $80K salary cap saving by having an extra 1 or 2 rookies.

[The Doctor]

I'd be keeping a spot for the mid season draft next year.

[ledge]

I'd be keeping a spot for the mid season draft next year.

Can’t we use McLeans spot for a mid season draft as he will be out all year.

[soupman]

I'd be keeping a spot for the mid season draft next year.

Yes. Even two.

[Ozza]

Roarke was good enought to be picked for the last 4 games of the year (including the final) when the list was pretty healthy. I shouldn't be a surprise that we've committed to retaining him.

[azabob]

Roarke was good enought to be picked for the last 4 games of the year (including the final) when the list was pretty healthy. I shouldn't be a surprise that we've committed to retaining him.

Not sure anyone thinks it's a surprise we have re-committed to him.

I think if he was delisted - that would be the surprise.

[Axe Man]

With Hayes & Cavarra added to the rookie list we now have 39 contracted players (34 primary, 4 category A rookies & 1 category B rookie).

JUH & Roarke Smith will be added (JUH - primary, Roarke - ?)

By my calculations that leaves 2 more available list spots on the primary/category A rookie list and 1 spot on the category B list (perhaps Raak).

[bulldogtragic]

With Hayes & Cavarra added to the rookie list we now have 39 contracted players (34 primary, 4 category A rookies & 1 category B rookie).

JUH & Roarke Smith will be added (JUH - primary, Roarke - ?)

By my calculations that leaves 2 more available list spots on the primary/category A rookie list and 1 spot on the category B list (perhaps Raak).

Bang on. Roarke will be ‘redrafted’. Raak to Cat B would be nice. Assuming MacPherson is drafted too (3+ Clubs wanted him at the combine). We have either another live pick or a DFA option. An interest choice to make.

[josie]

Very happy Ben Cavarra has another chance in RWB. Hope he has a few chances at senior level & does well.

I think we sometimes become enamoured with idea of picking a gem in later picks, however sometimes sticking with mature bodies is the way to go. We cut pretty deep this year, overdue in some respects. Still so happy for Ben (& Will too).

[Axe Man]

Bang on. Roarke will be ‘redrafted’. Raak to Cat B would be nice. Assuming MacPherson is drafted too (3+ Clubs wanted him at the combine). We have either another live pick or a DFA option. An interest choice to make.

Around 90 players were invited to combines across the country. I think they are only expecting around 60 players to be taken in the national draft so around 1 in 3 won't hear their name called in the main draft. That's not even accounting for perhaps the odd player drafted that didn't get a combine invite.

I haven't seen much mention of MacPherson at all in Phantom Drafts and the like. I think there is a fair chance he isn't nominated by another club, and if he is it appears likely to be late in the piece.

[bulldogtragic]

Around 90 players were invited to combines across the country. I think they are only expecting around 60 players to be taken in the national draft so around 1 in 3 won't hear their name called in the main draft. That's not even accounting for perhaps the odd player drafted that didn't get a combine invite.

I haven't seen much mention of MacPherson at all in Phantom Drafts and the like. I think there is a fair chance he isn't nominated by another club, and if he is it appears likely to be late in the piece.

With our rookie spots full with the commitment on Roarke. If we want MacPherson it seems it's going to be the ND at some point. With the 197 point discount, he may well not cost us other than the pick, or worst case a small amount of points. From what I followed about him last year, I'd like him at the club. Cheap is even better.

[Axe Man]

With our rookie spots full with the commitment on Roarke. If we want MacPherson it seems it's going to be the ND at some point. With the 197 point discount, he may well not cost us other than the pick, or worst case a small amount of points. From what I followed about him last year, I'd like him at the club. Cheap is even better.

The other possibility if he isn't bid on could be that we take just take JUH and 1 other pick for the primary list and add Roarke and MacPherson to the rookie list and have the minimum 36 primary listed players plus 6 cat A rookies.

[soupman]

I'll be dissapointed if we don't leave at least one spot open for next season, either for someone who does a pre-season with us or for the mid season draft. There should be about 10-20 guys who aren't really on the radar based on their 2019 form in the u17s who should show some growth and potential by then, Bont or Macrae style.

[bornadog]

I'll be dissapointed if we don't leave at least one spot open for next season, either for someone who does a pre-season with us or for the mid season draft. There should be about 10-20 guys who aren't really on the radar based on their 2019 form in the u17s who should show some growth and potential by then, Bont or Macrae style.

Mclean could go on long term injury list if we wanted someone mid season.

[Bulldog Joe]

I am one who is disappointed to hear that Cavarra and Hayes have been rookie listed.

They are only ever depth options in my view and they limit our chances to pick the next Morris/Boyd/Picken on the rookie list.

While our loyalty is admirable, it does not improve our list.

[ReLoad]

I am one who is disappointed to hear that Cavarra and Hayes have been rookie listed.

They are only ever depth options in my view and they limit our chances to pick the next Morris/Boyd/Picken on the rookie list.

While our loyalty is admirable, it does not improve our list.

Im of the opinion that one of them would have been a great depth compromise. both however is a bridge too far.

With treloar coming in, i cants ee a place for Hayes, unless he totally reinvents himself and turns into Ryan Crowley.

[GVGjr]

I am one who is disappointed to hear that Cavarra and Hayes have been rookie listed.

They are only ever depth options in my view and they limit our chances to pick the next Morris/Boyd/Picken on the rookie list.

While our loyalty is admirable, it does not improve our list.

It's an intriguing decision and one that we seem to make all too often. I think Reload sums it up nicely. Perhaps one of them might have been a decent option.

We certainly don't like parting with our toys even if we aren't using them

[Happy Days]

Cavarra has potential but has looked really soft since he got to the club to be perfectly frank. Got shaken in a damn seconds game by some rough treatment, was putrid in round one (not on his own of course), and also doesn’t use his speed to do the things we need out of him (like run into other players as fast as he can).

Hayes is inexcusable. If you won’t play him in games you pick him for then what’s the point. I would’ve far preferred the lottery ticket selection at the end of the draft.

[mjp]

I think they are only expecting around 60 players to be taken in the national draft...

I'm betting 40.

[mjp]

Im of the opinion that one of them would have been a great depth compromise. both however is a bridge too far.

With treloar coming in, i cants ee a place for Hayes, unless he totally reinvents himself and turns into Ryan Crowley.

I can see no room for Cavarra based on match-day form.
Hayes 100% needs to become an inside run-with player - pick Crowley or De Boer or whoever you like really - but there is a role for that player not just on our list but in the 22...

[comrade]

Any chance we're keeping Cavarra & Hayes under some sort of "good bloke, hard trainer" policy?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Aren't we supposedly building our list of indigenous talent? And starting to create, nurture and foster an indigenous culture at the club?
I was hoping we'd leave some spaces open on the list to take a punt on some indigenous talent. Richmond has done spectacularly well with plucking fringe players with aboriginal backgrounds, and I thought with Jamarra coming in, this would be high on our list of priorities, but it seems we're just re shuffling the deckchairs.

[Axe Man]

I'm betting 40.

60 was just off the top of my head, you are probably correct that it will be lower than that. Fox Footy are predicting 53. Could be in the 40s, although 40 seems a bit too low.

This only increases the chance that MacPherson isn't bid on by my reckoning.

[soupman]

We are so dumb and predictable when it comes to going out of our way to retain guys just because. We've already cut them, we've done the hard part, just let them go.

Hayes is a hard running winger who we jammed games into in 2019 and he turned into an ok contributor, but then we went right off him and despite Lachie Hunter (who is the closest approximation of what we want Hayes to be) not playing for half the season Hayes managed just two games and was actually dropped by halftime in the second one never to be seen again. How is a backup player with a low ceiling and that you don't actually use when the spot opens up worth giving yet another year to?

And Cavarra. A mid paced crumbing forward that has yet to crumb anything for us, he came to the club as a mature age recruit ready to go and has managed just 3 uninspiring games for us in two years despite his type being exactly the kin of player we need to put in there. Why is he on the list still? His output is on par with Andrew Hoopers.

Yeah I know this years draft is a crapshoot, but would either of these guys even get looked at if they were in the draft pool based on their VFL form these last two years and the players they are? Neither have pushed for selection at all this year, despite both being guys that came to the club with a reputation of really earning their spot and having done stuff the hard way. We were reluctant to play either of them even though there were clearly spots for players of their description in our line up all year. I will be astounded if at the end of 2021 their names aren't on the delisting pile, does anyone actually think they project as regular best 15 or even 22 players at all?

Also those list spots should be going to anybody else. We could pick up two state league quick crumbing forwards who have had promising seasons and even if neither play a senior game at least we have tried. We could use it on some random athletic beast and see what happens. We could grab the biggest and meanest key defender in the country and see if we can make him stick. We could grab Ivan Soldo's cousin (presumably also named Ivan) and see if that family can produce a third Premiership ruckman. These are all potentially dumb options, but at least we would be trying to improve our list instead of giving 6 out of 10s that we refuse to pick another year in the reserves. We could've used these list spots to pick up other players in the trade period. Could have grabbed Lachie Schultz, Brett Bewley, Connor Ballenden, Jake Aarts or Mabior Chol who have either just been demoted back to the rookie list or are still on there.

We also desperately want a dynamic small forward who can kick goals and bemoan how we can't seem to find one. The top goalkickers in the league in that position this season were Charlie Cameron, Daniel Butler, Liam Ryan and Tom Papley. Aside from Butler the other three were rookies. We are frustrated that we can't seem to find any good indigenous talent to put on our list, yet continually overlook the rookie draft where historically indigenous talent has been overrepresented.

Our rookie list atm has 15 and a half seasons to it's name, for a total of 49 games. Three of the guys on there have ceilings that would make them fringe best 22 types at best (Smith, Cavarra and Hayes), two have had no buzz internally or externally about them and have at best been named on the emergency list for what I assume are accounting purposes as we seem to have no intention of using them (Khamis and Sweet) and the only one that might yet establish himself as a proper senior player literally had the phrase "worst player I have even seen in our jumper" attached to half his games this year (Gardner). We are so risk averse and have turned the rookie list which saw such refreshing and important talent as Dahlhaus, Boyd, Picken and Morris emerge for us into a wasteland of guys that we have already decided aren't good enough for a senior list spot. I mean credit to Roarke for seemingly at least half justifying his spot on the list but 7 years not on the senior list to only be a fringe 22 guy is not a great example of how this approach gives us a competitive advantage.

The only former rookie picks on our list that have justified senior contracts atm are JJ and Jong. Thats it. We haven't gotten a single best 22 rookie since those guys in the early 2010s. There isn't a single guy we have demoted back to the rookie list that has re earned his senior list spot. What we are doing is not working.

Cavarra and Hayes seem like nice guys, and have clearly worked hard for their opportunity, but our list spots continue to be handed out out of some misguided sense of loyalty. We should cut these guys, tell them if they want they can stick around at Footscray and try and earn their way back on via the mid season draft, and in the meantime enable ourselves to offer contracts to two players that might actually do something for us and have ceilings higher than mediocre depth role players.

[Grantysghost]

I agree. My philosophy for the rookie list is to use it to punt on at least one untried talent that maybe slipped through for various reasons. Not to keep depth, break glass in case of catastrophe types.
I think it was Reload who suggested one of Hayes or Cavarra and I agree with that. A good balance would be one break glass guy and one untried / slipped through the cracks talent. Very conservative approach from our list team.

[Rocco Jones]

I wonder how much our decisions are based on rookie pick analytics, how many games/value pick x is worth. Do we have any idea on the 'worth' of say pick 35 in the rookie draft?

FWIW I'm with mjp on Hayes though. More the same seems like madness with him. Well, a waste anyway.

[Rocco Jones]

Non-Redrafted Rookies

2014
Roarke Smith
Jordan Kelly

2015
Brad Lynch
Luke Goetz
Jed Adcock

2016
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh

2017
Billy Gowers


2018
Lachie Young
Jordon Sweet

[hujsh]

Should Khamis be added to that list? He's a Cat B rookie right?

[Mitcha]

60 was just off the top of my head, you are probably correct that it will be lower than that. Fox Footy are predicting 53. Could be in the 40s, although 40 seems a bit too low.

This only increases the chance that MacPherson isn't bid on by my reckoning.
By my reckoning this means that neither MacPherson or Raak will be Bulldogs next year.

[Axe Man]

By my reckoning this means that neither MacPherson or Raak will be Bulldogs next year.

Why?

[Dancin' Douggy]

I totally agree. My short post re indigenous talent was basically a brief version of what you have articulated so very very well here.
We are so dumb and predictable when it comes to going out of our way to retain guys just because. We've already cut them, we've done the hard part, just let them go.

Hayes is a hard running winger who we jammed games into in 2019 and he turned into an ok contributor, but then we went right off him and despite Lachie Hunter (who is the closest approximation of what we want Hayes to be) not playing for half the season Hayes managed just two games and was actually dropped by halftime in the second one never to be seen again. How is a backup player with a low ceiling and that you don't actually use when the spot opens up worth giving yet another year to?

And Cavarra. A mid paced crumbing forward that has yet to crumb anything for us, he came to the club as a mature age recruit ready to go and has managed just 3 uninspiring games for us in two years despite his type being exactly the kin of player we need to put in there. Why is he on the list still? His output is on par with Andrew Hoopers.

Yeah I know this years draft is a crapshoot, but would either of these guys even get looked at if they were in the draft pool based on their VFL form these last two years and the players they are? Neither have pushed for selection at all this year, despite both being guys that came to the club with a reputation of really earning their spot and having done stuff the hard way. We were reluctant to play either of them even though there were clearly spots for players of their description in our line up all year. I will be astounded if at the end of 2021 their names aren't on the delisting pile, does anyone actually think they project as regular best 15 or even 22 players at all?

Also those list spots should be going to anybody else. We could pick up two state league quick crumbing forwards who have had promising seasons and even if neither play a senior game at least we have tried. We could use it on some random athletic beast and see what happens. We could grab the biggest and meanest key defender in the country and see if we can make him stick. We could grab Ivan Soldo's cousin (presumably also named Ivan) and see if that family can produce a third Premiership ruckman. These are all potentially dumb options, but at least we would be trying to improve our list instead of giving 6 out of 10s that we refuse to pick another year in the reserves. We could've used these list spots to pick up other players in the trade period. Could have grabbed Lachie Schultz, Brett Bewley, Connor Ballenden, Jake Aarts or Mabior Chol who have either just been demoted back to the rookie list or are still on there.

We also desperately want a dynamic small forward who can kick goals and bemoan how we can't seem to find one. The top goalkickers in the league in that position this season were Charlie Cameron, Daniel Butler, Liam Ryan and Tom Papley. Aside from Butler the other three were rookies. We are frustrated that we can't seem to find any good indigenous talent to put on our list, yet continually overlook the rookie draft where historically indigenous talent has been overrepresented.

Our rookie list atm has 15 and a half seasons to it's name, for a total of 49 games. Three of the guys on there have ceilings that would make them fringe best 22 types at best (Smith, Cavarra and Hayes), two have had no buzz internally or externally about them and have at best been named on the emergency list for what I assume are accounting purposes as we seem to have no intention of using them (Khamis and Sweet) and the only one that might yet establish himself as a proper senior player literally had the phrase "worst player I have even seen in our jumper" attached to half his games this year (Gardner). We are so risk averse and have turned the rookie list which saw such refreshing and important talent as Dahlhaus, Boyd, Picken and Morris emerge for us into a wasteland of guys that we have already decided aren't good enough for a senior list spot. I mean credit to Roarke for seemingly at least half justifying his spot on the list but 7 years not on the senior list to only be a fringe 22 guy is not a great example of how this approach gives us a competitive advantage.

The only former rookie picks on our list that have justified senior contracts atm are JJ and Jong. Thats it. We haven't gotten a single best 22 rookie since those guys in the early 2010s. There isn't a single guy we have demoted back to the rookie list that has re earned his senior list spot. What we are doing is not working.

Cavarra and Hayes seem like nice guys, and have clearly worked hard for their opportunity, but our list spots continue to be handed out out of some misguided sense of loyalty. We should cut these guys, tell them if they want they can stick around at Footscray and try and earn their way back on via the mid season draft, and in the meantime enable ourselves to offer contracts to two players that might actually do something for us and have ceilings higher than mediocre depth role players.

[Mofra]

Any chance we're keeping Cavarra & Hayes under some sort of "good bloke, hard trainer" policy?
The Prudden rule?
I expect Hayes is being kept for his tank more than anything else. Cavarra is extremely lucky, especially with Hannan coming in unless we do something stupid like try to turn Hannan into a wingman (which I wouldn't put it past the MC to do).

If Weightman learns to crumb it makes our list management interesting.

[Mitcha]

Why?

Available list spots for a start. MacPherson at his size would seem to have too many similar types in front of him and Raak seems to have little appeal to any club judging by things you hear from people who would know.

[Mofra]

Available list spots for a start. MacPherson at his size has too many similar types in front of him and Raak seems to have little appeal to any club judging by things you hear from people who would know.
MacPherson projects as a small defender who actually defends - given we chased Duryea for that exact role I hope we take him over some fringe inside mid

[Rocco Jones]

Should Khamis be added to that list? He's a Cat B rookie right?

I didn’t add Khamis as you can’t just re-draft someone to Cat B.

[Axe Man]

Available list spots for a start. MacPherson at his size would seem to have too many similar types in front of him and Raak seems to have little appeal to any club judging by things you hear from people who would know.

Raak is a free hit in a list spot nobody else can fill, simply comes down to whether we rate him or not and $$$.

There are 4 list spots (ignoring the potential category B spot) left - 2 go to JUH and Roarke, 2 remain. MacPherson should be in the mix for 1 of those, just depends on who else is available late in the draft I am guessing.

[Bulldog4life]

Any chance we're keeping Cavarra & Hayes under some sort of "good bloke, hard trainer" policy?

Maybe the fact that 2020 was a shite year for those on the cusp with no VFL games and 2 players in Hayes and Cavarra now get another shot.

[comrade]

Maybe the fact that 2020 was a shite year for those on the cusp with no VFL games and 2 players in Hayes and Cavarra now get another shot.

Yeah I reckon you’re right. Some good bloke points + 2020 leniency thrown in.

[bornadog]

Maybe the fact that 2020 was a shite year for those on the cusp with no VFL games and 2 players in Hayes and Cavarra now get another shot.

I personally feel Cavarra has been unlucky with two seasons of injuries and no VFL this year. I don't mind him on the rookie list, he can play a role where we don't have too many contenders for at the moment.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm with jeemak. It's a pretty uninspiring decision when we all know that neither of the two will (should?) be on the list in 2 years time. Why do we keep prolonging the inevitable with players who aren't up to the elite level?

Our rookie listing in recent times has been diabolical.

[jeemak]

I'm with jeemak. It's a pretty uninspiring decision when we all know that neither of the two will (should?) be on the list in 2 years time. Why do we keep prolonging the inevitable with players who aren't up to the elite level?

Our rookie listing in recent times has been diabolical.

Why am I being brought into this? I think I was saying the opposite the other day anyway! :D

[Rocket Science]

I feel like the beige armchair I finally got around to putting out with a 'free to good home' sign has reappeared in the lounge room again.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why am I being brought into this? I think I was saying the opposite the other day anyway! :D

Got you mixed up with soup!

[jeemak]

Got you mixed up with soup!

I would say, depending on who you asked, the difference between soup being mildly annoyed by such a slight, versus being completely annoyed by such a slight is pretty small.

May God have mercy on your soul.

[soupman]

I would say, depending on who you asked, the difference between soup being mildly annoyed by such a slight, versus being completely annoyed by such a slight is pretty small.

May God have mercy on your soul.

Oh I am livid.

[The Doctor]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how-your-club-stands-ahead-of-the-2020-afl-national-draft-20201201-p56jpd.html

WESTERN BULLDOGS

PICKS: 29, 33, 41, 42, 52, 54, 90.

KEY DEFENDERS: Alex Keath, Zaine Cordy, Ryan Gardner, Lewis Young, Buku Khamis.

SMALL/MEDIUM DEFENDERS: Caleb Daniel, Jason Johannisen, Easton Wood, Hayden Crozier, Bailey Williams, Ed Richards, Taylor Duryea, Louis Butler.

MIDFIELDERS: Marcus Bontempelli, Adam Treloar, Jack Macrae, Lachie Hunter, Tom Liberatore, Bailey Smith, Josh Dunkley, Patrick Lipinski, Laitham Vandermeer, Lin Jong, Rhylee West, Will Hayes, Riley Garcia. plus Roarke Smith

KEY FORWARDS: Aaron Naughton, Josh Bruce, Josh Schache. plus Jamarra Ugle-Hagen

SMALL/MEDIUM FORWARDS: Mitch Wallis, Sam Lloyd, Toby McLean, Mitch Hannan, Bailey Dale, Cody Weightman, Ben Cavarra.
RUCKS: Tim English, Stefan Martin, Jordon Sweet.

The Bulldogs got in just in time. History may well view their looming acquisition of athletic Indigenous tall forward Jamarra Ugle-Hagan as one of the great draft steals. Had he been in next year's draft pool, not this year's, the Dogs would not have been able to pick him up as next generation academy players cannot be matched inside the top 20 in 2021, extending to the top 40 the following season. But that should be of little concern for the Bulldogs, unless any of his four younger brothers turn out to be in the same ballpark as a player widely likened to Sydney superstar Lance Franklin. The question now is when the Dogs will have to match a bid for Ugle-Hagan, which will come no later than Sydney's pick No.3. It won't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, as a trade with the Giants meant the Dogs have enough points even to match a bid at pick No.1. There are few clear gaps on the Bulldogs' list but they might be able to gather another key defender in the form of Cody Raak, the lesser-known prospect from the Dogs' next generation academy who would likely come cheap and late.

From Axeman's player contract thread we have leading into the draft;

Contracted Players = 39 (34 Primary List, 4 Category A Rookies, 1 Category B Rookie)

The 2 certainties are we will add Jamarra to the main list & Rourke Smith most likely to the rookie list. This would then update the contracted list to 41 (35 Primary List, 5 Category A Rookies, 1 Category B Rookie)

We are required to have minimum 36 on the Primary list so we can expect to draft at least 1 more player. Thats unless we draft Smith to the primary list. Whichever way we go it will leave 2 spots on the list vacant overall and would be optional for us to fill.

Looking at the Age's breakdown of our list the glaring shortages are ruck and small forward. I hope we do something about it.

The other matter is what will we do about Super's son Ewan & Cody Raak. I get the feeling they might have to go back to the u/18's for another year as over age players.

[GVGjr]

I just can't see us drafting either McPherson or Raak.
It will obviously be JUH and then more likely I suspect it could a player who has slid down the order

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I just can't see us drafting either McPherson or Raak.
It will obviously be JUH and then more likely I suspect it could a player who has slid down the order

Do you think we should chase someone like Jetta, just so JUH has someone to look up to and set the standards required and keep him from developing homesickness?

[azabob]

Do you think we should chase someone like Jetta, just so JUH has someone to look up to and set the standards required and keep him from developing homesickness?

JUH is from Framlingham in Victoria and has been in the Melbourne bubble since year 9.

[Bullies]

Do you think we should chase someone like Jetta, just so JUH has someone to look up to and set the standards required and keep him from developing homesickness? Let JUH create his own legacy and attract other indigenous players. He won't have the "go home" factor as he is a Vic Country boy and resided in Melbourne the past couple of years. He spoke on ABC about his friendship group through the Scotch College Academy with other Indigenous players and how they regularly catch up.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Let JUH create his own legacy and attract other indigenous players. He won't have the "go home" factor as he is a Vic Country boy and resided in Melbourne the past couple of years. He spoke on ABC about his friendship group through the Scotch College Academy with other Indigenous players and how they regularly catch up.
JUH in the same side.
That is music to my ears. Look threats to the Bont and

[bornadog]

I just can't see us drafting either McPherson or Raak.
It will obviously be JUH and then more likely I suspect it could a player who has slid down the order


From HUN which I don't have access to:


Congrats to Ewan Macpherson.The
@NthKnights
co-captain has been nominated by the Western Bulldogs as a father-son pick.
If no other club drafts him tonight, will be pre-selected as a rookie.

[Mofra]

Number 1!

[Axe Man]

So we have 2 primary list/category A rookie spots to fill. It seems MacPherson will fill a rookie spot - what will we do with the other position?

I assume either we take a second rookie today or we leave it open for a possible DFA or undrafted player to be signed at a later date (perhaps after training with us over the pre-season).

[The Pie Man]

So we have 2 primary list/category A rookie spots to fill. It seems MacPherson will fill a rookie spot - what will we do with the other position?

I assume either we take a second rookie today or we leave it open for a possible DFA or undrafted player to be signed at a later date (perhaps after training with us over the pre-season).

Sorry if this has been mentioned already somewhere and/or is obvious, but where is Roarke Smith in all of this?

We committed to redrafting him and possibly adding Hayes & Cav to the rookie list - then the next media release confirms we’ve locked in Cav & Hayes as rookies with no mention of Roarke?....

[Happy Days]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already somewhere and/or is obvious, but where is Roarke Smith in all of this?

We committed to redrafting him and possibly adding Hayes & Cav to the rookie list - then the next media release confirms we’ve locked in Cav & Hayes as rookies with no mention of Roarke?....

Didn't Roarke re-sign a deal on the main list?

[The Pie Man]

Didn't Roarke re-sign a deal on the main list?

That’s what I’m assuming, but there’s been no media confirming that (that I’ve seen)

[Axe Man]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already somewhere and/or is obvious, but where is Roarke Smith in all of this?

We committed to redrafting him and possibly adding Hayes & Cav to the rookie list - then the next media release confirms we’ve locked in Cav & Hayes as rookies with no mention of Roarke?....

Completely forgot about Roarke! Yes he will be added either to the primary or rookie list (there has been no clarification of which list that I am aware of and he could be added to either). MacPherson to the rookie list. We may add Raak as a category B rookie. At that will be the end of that, no small forward or key back will be forthcoming unfortunately.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Completely forgot about Roarke! Yes he will be added either to the primary or rookie list (there has been no clarification of which list that I am aware of and he could be added to either). MacPherson to the rookie list. We may add Raak as a category B rookie. At that will be the end of that, no small forward or key back will be forthcoming unfortunately.

Honestly why didn’t we go for Winder with our last pick? Nothing against Bedendo but that pick was always hugely speculative. Why not go for needs? Winder filled our small forward needs. We could even have potentially taken Bedendo later instead of persisting with Hayes. Maybe there was go home factor with Winder?

[hujsh]

Honestly why didn’t we go for Winder with our last pick? Nothing against Bedendo but that pick was always hugely speculative. Why not go for needs? Winder filled our small forward needs. We could even have potentially taken Bedendo later instead of persisting with Hayes.

I was also surprised we didn't go for him.

[bulldogtragic]

Roarke Re Rookied

[Axe Man]

So no MacPherson

[bulldogtragic]

NO MacPherson.

[Happy Days]

No Cavarra or Hayes?

[Axe Man]

No Cavarra or Hayes?

They are already on the rookie list, didn't have to go through the draft.

If only someone had a thread on this subject.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Why would we nominate Ewan but not take him? Seems a bit odd.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

NO MacPherson.

I thought we committed to him? Poor form if he gave him that assurance?

[comrade]

Can someone post an updated summary as to who is what on our list (main list, rookies A/B).

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Can someone post an updated summary as to who is what on our list (main list, rookies A/B).

Are Cat B placements still to occur? Or have we overlooked Raak?

[Axe Man]

Yes he nominated him but I doubt that there was any assurance given (I think this may have been an assumption by some rather than fact).

Perhaps it was a case of seeing what else was available and we rated McNeil higher than MacPherson.

[Axe Man]

Can someone post an updated summary as to who is what on our list (main list, rookies A/B).

An impossible task surely.

[bulldogtragic]

I thought we committed to him? Poor form if he gave him that assurance?

I can't imagine Sam Power would make a promise to him and club hero father only to lie and break all bonds. A good deal of what Sam does isn't actually accurately recorded anywhere in the press. On exposed form, I'm thinking Sam wouldn't do that. I'm assuming he plays next year in the NAB League and could still go father/son (rules permitting).

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Have Cat B placements been done today as well? Did we pick up Raak?

[G-Mo77]

If you're going to nominate someone draft them. If they didn't think he was good enough for a rookie spot or there might be better options then why bother nominating?

[Smads57]

Is it possible we place McLean on the LTI list and recruit MacPherson under the replacement ruling? I’d be surprised (as others are) if Power didn’t have something in mind for Ewan.

[comrade]

I can’t see why we wouldn’t put Raak on as a category B. It’s a free hit.

[Doc26]

Can someone post an updated summary as to who is what on our list (main list, rookies A/B).

Adding Jamarra and Dominic to the primary list takes our total to 36 by my reckoning.

Add the 6 finalised Cat A rookies in Gardner, Sweet, Cavarra, Hayes and Roarke and now McNeill.

We reach our max limit of 42 players.

We can then add up to 2 Cat B rookies. We already have Buku, leaving one Cat B spare, probably an opportunity for Raak but unsure what the Cat B deadline is.

[EasternWest]

They are already on the rookie list, didn't have to go through the draft.

If only someone had a thread on this subject.

Radical thinking. It'll never happen.

[jeemak]

Radical thinking. It'll never happen.

He'll never do anything about it.

[Axe Man]

If you're going to nominate someone draft them. If they didn't think he was good enough for a rookie spot or there might be better options then why bother nominating?

Maybe they didn't expect McNeil to be available? So long as they tempered MacPherson's expectations and were clear on the scenario I don't have a problem with it. Hard to get outraged when we have so little information.


I can’t see why we wouldn’t put Raak on as a category B. It’s a free hit.

It's not free in terms of $$$ though. If we genuinely don't think he will make it I guess there is no point adding him to the list. We will probably never know the answer though.

[Axe Man]

Adding Jamarra and Dominic to the primary list takes our total to 36 by my reckoning.

Add the 6 finalised Cat A rookies in Gardner, Sweet, Cavarra, Hayes and Roarke and now McNeill.

We reach our max limit of 42 players.

We can then add up to 2 Cat B rookies. We already have Buku, leaving one Cat B spare, probably an opportunity for Raak but unsure what the Cat B deadline is.

You nailed it! You should start a thread on this subject.;)

[bulldogtragic]

I'm hoping that the AFEL allows any and all overlooked FS & NGA for all clubs another year with Priority Access status. If that's the case, as it makes sense for the kids and clubs, then we'd have a year to look at them with a season of footy.

[comrade]

It's not free in terms of $$$ though. If we genuinely don't think he will make it I guess there is no point adding him to the list. We will probably never know the answer though.

Even if we thought he was a long shot, a 190+ athletic defender seems like a worthwhile type to take a flier on.

[bornadog]

Even if we thought he was a long shot, a 190+ athletic defender seems like a worthwhile type to take a flier on.

If he can play a bit.

[westbulldog]

I have doubts about whether Gardner ,Cavarra and Hayes will ever add much to our team. Hannan is touted as the panacea to our small/medium forward issue but he will have to 1. get a game and 2. perform to the level everyone expects of him. We still badly lack a KPD, that is our achilles heel in 2021.

[KT31]

Are we able to place both Raak and McPherson on the Cat B or do we only have space for just one more player ?
Could another possibility be to train with us and play at Footscray then be picked up in the mid-season draft ?

[hujsh]

Are we able to place both Raak and McPherson on the Cat B or do we only have space for just one more player ?
Could another possibility be to train with us and play at Footscray then be picked up in the mid-season draft ?

Only Raak is eligible as a cat b