Year of the Dogs Flashbacks.

[mjp]

Every time I read about the West Coast win, somehow the fact that West Coast had a few players out is in the first line. That's in the media and reading posts on here. It is giving me serious flashbacks to the 'Scrappy win by Dogs' headline referred to in the "YOTD" docco.

Just a reminder - when WC (sorry, the commentators keep calling them "THE West Coast" which is weird!) won the flag in 2018, Natanui wasn't playing. Nor was Kelly as an aside. Nor was Gaff for one more. But I don't hear about it being a courageous Grand Final victory by a side missing a few players...

Everyone has injuries. EVERYONE. Some are playing with them. Some get rested. When they get rested, the roles of others within the side change and - in the absence of Shuey and Yeo, former high draft selections Sheed and Kelly got more inside time. If they were that concerned, they could have chucked Gaff in there as well as they often did during 2019.

McGovern, Barrass and Shepherd were all playing. We absolutely dominated them and but for a couple of silly mistakes up forward, would have romped away with it...

All that said - we still have to beat Hawthorn and Freo to get in - and Freo have true grit right now...it isn't going to be easy. But in the meantime, can we be positive??

[comrade]

But in the meantime, can we be positive??

Can't we be positive, but also realistic?

Once upon a time, we'd be rapt with a scrappy underdog win but is it a bad thing to expect more?

[bornadog]

I thought it was a great win. We smashed them in the midfield, in stoppages, clearances, Cont Poss. We kept the ball in our half of the ground for 65% of game time. Yes we should have kicked at least 5 more goals, but I was so wrapt we won.

So they had a few missing, but so did we. Wood, Duryea, Suckling, Jong and we were less experienced than they were.

I must admit, this forum has turned very negative this year, but I am staying positive.

[Daughter of the West]

I must admit, this forum has turned very negative this year, but I am staying positive.

To be fair, I would argue that this is a product of the broader circumstances of living in Victoria with COVID-19. I know personally, it feels pretty hard to be positive about anything at the moment and the Dogs would need to be absolutely flying for me to think we're in with a serious crack.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Can't we be positive, but also realistic?

Once upon a time, we'd be rapt with a scrappy underdog win but is it a bad thing to expect more?

The only scrappy bit about it was our woeful finishing. It should never have been so close.
We played brilliant football after Qtr time.
I am grateful that we didn't fold. In times gone by when we've failed to convert and squandered chances to put games to bed, we responded a couple of times to stick to the task and get the win.

[Axe Man]

Well if we lose to Hawthorn or Freo I'll spew up. ;)

I do agree though, it was a good win with many more positives than negatives. It was another almost game, not unlike the Port or Geelong games where we also did a lot right. Fortunately this time we came out on the right side of the ledger.

[mjp]

Can't we be positive, but also realistic?

Once upon a time, we'd be rapt with a scrappy underdog win but is it a bad thing to expect more?

As long as we all remember that perfection is not realistic, then sure.
Sometimes it seems like players can't make mistakes any more...the other team is trying to win as well. I just got the "Well, just as well" vibe from the post match comments and it is like we can't celebrate anything anymore...it was a great win. We've actually played pretty well for 4-5 weeks now (since the Adelaide game) without necessarily getting the chocolates each week but...

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Well if we lose to Hawthorn or Freo I'll spew up. ;)

I do agree though, it was a good win with many more positives than negatives. It was another almost game, not unlike the Port or Geelong games where we also did a lot right. Fortunately this time we came out on the right side of the ledger.

Yep. Next two weeks will show whether we've really got the requisite fortitude and maturity to grab a spot in the finals.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

As long as we all remember that perfection is not realistic, then sure.
Sometimes it seems like players can't make mistakes any more...the other team is trying to win as well. I just got the "Well, just as well" vibe from the post match comments and it is like we can't celebrate anything anymore...it was a great win. We've actually played pretty well for 4-5 weeks now (since the Adelaide game) without necessarily getting the chocolates each week but...

Yep. And the output of posts seems to drop considerably when we actually win? As soon as we lose, lots of people pop up to get stuck in and give 'i told you so' narratives.

[Bulldog Revolution]

and Freo have true grit right now...it isn't going to be easy. But in the meantime, can we be positive??

Freo have never been an easy team for us - Walters, Fyfe and co have historically played very well against us - they good emerging talls - so they absolutely have the firepower to challenge us

But we've mostly been playing good footy without quite putting fully together forward of the ball

Im optimistic that we can build with two strong performances and then hope the cards fall our way

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I must admit, this forum has turned very negative this year, but I am staying positive.

I think that's just a reflection from the fact that we've fallen well short of preseason expectations. Which is only natural. I've been one who has had to readjust my thinking of where this team realistically sits in the competition. It's not easy to accept. And to have to do that again after 3 prior poor seasons isn't an easy pill to swallow so I certainly understand where it comes from.

That being said, I was certainly happy with the outcome of the game on the weekend. Who wouldn't be?

[Bulldog4life]

Yep. And the output of posts seems to drop considerably when we actually win? As soon as we lose, lots of people pop up to get stuck in and give 'i told you so' narratives.

One in particular.....no names :)

[Bulldog Joe]

As long as we all remember that perfection is not realistic, then sure.
Sometimes it seems like players can't make mistakes any more...the other team is trying to win as well. I just got the "Well, just as well" vibe from the post match comments and it is like we can't celebrate anything anymore...it was a great win. We've actually played pretty well for 4-5 weeks now (since the Adelaide game) without necessarily getting the chocolates each week but...

I actually think we have played pretty well for a longer streak than that.

Since the disaster against Richmond we have had periods where we have been on top in every game and should absolutely have won over both Port and Geelong. The other loss against Brisbane was just half a quarter where we basically allowed them to take the game away.

[soupman]

I must admit, this forum has turned very negative this year, but I am staying positive.

To be fair we came into the season optimistic, then had the most demoralising and pathetic first two games actually possible, then came good but have still consistently been displaying the Beveridgisms that have plagued us for years, all wrapped up in a pandemic that has sucked the joy out of Melbourne.

I really enjoyed the other night fwiw, it was genuinely fun, but at the same time I think it's fair to acknowledge that we came very close to another frustrating loss with all the usual limitations on display.

[comrade]

To be fair we came into the season optimistic, then had the most demoralising and pathetic first two games actually possible, then came good but have still consistently been displaying the Beveridgisms that have plagued us for years, all wrapped up in a pandemic that has sucked the joy out of Melbourne.

I really enjoyed last night fwiw, it was genuinely fun, but at the same time I think it's fair to acknowledge that we came very close to another frustrating loss with all the usual limitations on display.

There's been a few 'shouldas' and what ifs in this thread around our goal kicking, i.e. we should have won by 5+ goals.

Well, Jack Darling should have kicked the goal late and we would have lost. Would this thread still exist if so?

[bornadog]

I think it's fair to acknowledge that we came very close to another frustrating loss with all the usual limitations on display.

True, but you have to remember who we were playing as well. I don't believe we are a top 4 side yet, as we don't have the right players all over the ground, but losses to Port, Geelong, Brisbane and beating West Coast showed we are close.

I am excited for the future, and if we can play finals, that would be great.

My biggest disappointment this season has been the Richmond loss, and it was all down to the 2nd quarter. I know we lost to Collingwood badly, and the Saints but we should have been right up there against Richmond as we have matched them well in the past.

[EasternWest]

One in particular.....no names :)

Bloody grantysghost. We should run him out of town.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

There's been a few 'shouldas' and what ifs in this thread around our goal kicking, i.e. we should have won by 5+ goals.

Well, Jack Darling should have kicked the goal late and we would have lost. Would this thread still exist if so?

Don't disagree, but it's getting unbearable at times here, where a win and a loss are almost treated identically.
Celebrate a win, highlight the good and the bad.
We got 90% of our game right against a quality opposition, and we won.
All of the elements we've loathed about our performances over the journey were ticked off, bar goalkicking.
I was particularly pleased with how we stopped the rot at Qtr time, and dried up the costly goals from turnovers.. They kicked 3 goals after Qtr time. And all the while we didn't stop playing a fast attacking game.
We had a conventional ruck set up that actually worked.
Our mids worked hard all game, including effectively shutting down their known prime movers.
We didn't drop our heads when it looked as if our poor conversion would cost us.
Our leader, who we've all lamented missing 'Captain's goals' in the past, slotted through an amazing goal to lift us over the line.
Tim English took some massive clunks in defense and on the wing snuffing out West coast's last opportunity to get over the line.

IF Jack Darling kicked that goal, I think it would've gone into meltdown here, but it still wouldn't have meant the performance wasn't pleasing. I'd like to think the focus would've been on our crap goalkicking...and not more of the 'Bevo is stubborn and stuck in his ways and that's why we lost tonight narrative'.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Bloody grantysghost. We should run him out of town.

You're gonna have a hard time getting your Chinese food delivered now for naming names

https://i.postimg.cc/25Q3ZnMp/image.png (https://postimg.cc/jWjsVnRv)

I hope there are some Seinfeld fans here to get that

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Don't disagree, but it's getting unbearable at times here, where a win and a loss are almost treated identically.
Celebrate a win, highlight the good and the bad.
We got 90% of our game right against a quality opposition, and we won.
All of the elements we've loathed about our performances over the journey were ticked off, bar goalkicking.
I was particularly pleased with how we stopped the rot at Qtr time, and dried up the costly goals from turnovers.. They kicked 3 goals after Qtr time. And all the while we didn't stop playing a fast attacking game.
We had a conventional ruck set up that actually worked.
Our mids worked hard all game, including effectively shutting down their known prime movers.
We didn't drop our heads when it looked as if our poor conversion would cost us.
Our leader, who we've all lamented missing 'Captain's goals' in the past, slotted through an amazing goal to lift us over the line.
Tim English took some massive clunks in defense and on the wing snuffing out West coast's last opportunity to get over the line.

IF Jack Darling kicked that goal, I think it would've gone into meltdown here, but it still wouldn't have meant the performance wasn't pleasing. I'd like to think the focus would've been on our crap goalkicking...and not more of the 'Bevo is stubborn and stuck in his ways and that's why we lost tonight narrative'.

Isn't this what generally happens? IMO this is what I see, ignoring the game day thread obviously. To call it unbearable seems over the top to me. Maybe I'm not reading all the posts but perhaps people are focusing on the negative posts a little too much.

[comrade]

Isn't this what generally happens? IMO this is what I see, ignoring the game day thread obviously. To call it unbearable seems over the top to me. Maybe I'm not reading all the posts but perhaps people are focusing on the negative posts a little too much.

Bingo. The gaslighting is getting out of hand.

[Rocket Science]

I must admit, this forum has turned very negative this year, but I am staying positive.

It may have something to do with the fact Bevo's win/loss % since the flag year is identical to Simon Goodwin's over the same period.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It may have something to do with the fact Bevo's win/loss % since the flag year is identical to Simon Goodwin's over the same period.

And that is precisely the example of the lack of nuance that can be frustrating to converse with.

[bornadog]

It may have something to do with the fact Bevo's win/loss % since the flag year is identical to Simon Goodwin's over the same period.

Play finals this year and that is 4 out of 6 including the big one.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Play finals this year and that is 4 out of 6 including the big one.

Yep.
And that is not to say Bevo and the broader football department have not made some poor decisions in that time.
But there are also a lot of other reasons that better separate where we are at in comparison to Melbourne outside of a similar win-loss ratio.

[EasternWest]

You're gonna have a hard time getting your Chinese food delivered now for naming names

https://i.postimg.cc/25Q3ZnMp/image.png (https://postimg.cc/jWjsVnRv)

I hope there are some Seinfeld fans here to get that

You're Benes.

[SonofScray]

A haiku in summation:

Very brief –
Gleam of blossoms in the treetops
On a moonlit night.

[Topdog]

There's been a few 'shouldas' and what ifs in this thread around our goal kicking, i.e. we should have won by 5+ goals.

Well, Jack Darling should have kicked the goal late and we would have lost. Would this thread still exist if so?

Should he? He was 5 goals 10 behinds from that spot. Odds on to miss.

[Topdog]

It may have something to do with the fact Bevo's win/loss % since the flag year is identical to Simon Goodwin's over the same period.

Or 54% vs 32% in the past 2 seasons.

[comrade]

Should he? He was 5 goals 10 behinds from that spot. Odds on to miss.

Just like we ‘should’ have won by more, I guess?

[Bulldog4life]

Bloody grantysghost. We should run him out of town.

Not even close. :)

[mjp]

Bingo. The gaslighting is getting out of hand.

What's gaslighting? Sorry that I don't understand what you mean.

We make fun of other supporter groups (especially the Bombers) and the self promoting 'my player is better than your player' stuff...but from where I sit we are simply never happy. I know I'm seen as a Gardner "SUPPORTER" (I suppose I am, in the sense I repeatedly say "He's a 200cm key defender who came off the rookie list and has played bugger all games so hows about we give him a go before we blame him for everything and make him walk the plank")...anyway, he played a GOOD GAME on Sunday. Comments about his performance include:

"He will only ever be a bit player"
"Coming from a long way back, still get the deer in the headlights feel from him, same with Roarke Smith" - I guess in reference to the guy who kicked a crucial, pressure goal in the last q.
"They only had 27 inside 50s, they couldn't get it in there."

There was also a question regarding his place on the list vs an untried kid who missed out on a draft camp invite. Yes, I acknowledge there was some positive stuff there as well but why anyone would say negative stuff at all after his performance I really have no idea. I am trying hard to celebrate each of his successes (he has done it the hard way and deserves it) and once upon a time "WE" (as a supporter group) would have been proud of finding a potential diamond in the rough...then later laugh about it when what we thought was going to be a diamond was really just another hunk of coal that just for a moment caught the rays of the sun at the right angle.

I get the "If we lose to Hawthorn (or Freo) I'll spew up" comments (they are funny in the context of the thread title - a title that was my fault) but the reality is we don't allow ourselves to celebrate for even a second before we are being critical of x-y-z and looking ahead to the next game with dread.

I think I look at things with a relatively 'even' viewpoint and have 100% called things out when I think they were poorly planned and executed but how any supporter can be critical of the effort the players put forth (and the coaches put in - the plan kept WC to 27 i50's after all) I'll never know. Maybe this one meant more to me because it was against WC and I spent all day listening to the excuses from the WC supporters as to why we lost...then to my amazement those same excuses were echoed on here as the reasons we won. I had one WC supporter tell me on Monday they had 10x players 'better' than Bontempelli for goodness sake...

It wasn't a scrappy win. It was a GREAT win. In difficult circumstances. Against a good team.

[jeemak]

Gaslighting:

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.


A pretty emotive response to having behaviour on a forum called out.

[Bulldog4life]

Gaslighting:

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.

Sometimes people who claim they are being gaslighted are really paranoid about being called out for their actual behaviour.

Sounds like a guy in the US.

[mjp]

Gaslighting:

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.


A pretty emotive response to having behaviour on a forum called out.

I still don't get it.

Am I gaslighting by saying it was a good win not a scrappy win and it would be great if "we" could celebrate it a bit more? If so - based on that definition - I must have psychological super powers! I'm going to go with that.

[jeemak]

I still don't get it.

Am I gaslighting by saying it was a good win not a scrappy win and it would be great if "we" could celebrate it a bit more? If so - based on that definition - I must have psychological super powers! I'm going to go with that.

No I think some people think others are jumping at shadows when claiming this place has become hyper negative at times, and that claiming that's the case is essentially gaslighting those who are being hyper negative...…...or something.

Don't think it's referring to you.

[comrade]

Gaslighting:

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.


A pretty emotive response to having behaviour on a forum called out.

Lol behaviour being called out? You’re unreal.

Nice edit by the way.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I mean, if a forum can’t be a place to freely express opinion then what’s the point?

[Grantysghost]

Bloody grantysghost. We should run him out of town.

I'm happy to take the blame :cool: ! #gowersforpm

That Seinfeld reference had me chuckling kudos BT&T. Ned Isakov. You named names....You got me black listed from Hop Sings !??

[Grantysghost]

I like all the opinions, I just hate the pile on and hanging onto said opinion because it somehow may hurt your ego to admit, as we all are at times (me once but I was mistaken), we got it wrong.
Gardner is a prime example. The guy has played a handful of games and after a shaky start I've seen a little bit more each week to get excited about, I can't see a reason to continue any criticism.

[EasternWest]

#gowersforpm



All reports are that Billy is a nice guy. I'll second the motion.

[The bulldog tragician]

It’s strange. Before we won the flag, as supporters many of us were constantly accused of “celebrating mediocrity” if we were happy with a valiant effort, or realistic about the impact of injury or things beyond our control. Now it feels many can never see good even in wins. I’ve seen posts advising others not to watch the game again (I did...and saw even more to be happy about than when I was fretting and agonising). Suggestions that Roarke Smith is getting a game because he skateboards with the coach. And positive glee at times if selections don’t come off - many I’ve been dubious about myself, but I always hope I’m wrong!

I had to take a week off this forum because instead of the lively debate and black humour I was accustomed to, the mood felt bitter and nasty.

We have had ups and downs, but the team and coaching staff have worked really hard to craft something and get our season back on track in very difficult circumstances. I’d rather see us lose because of skill errors and poor finishing than a lack of heart. You only need to look at the Essendon/Melbourne train wrecks to see how easy it would have been to turn our toes up and say our season was gone at various points. We should have won by more, but we did win, and who’s to say that even if Darling had goaled from that shocker of a free, we wouldn’t have lifted yet again, pushed forward, and found a way..

[comrade]

You won’t find a single person on this forum that didn’t find something good in the win on the weekend or enjoy the fact that we won the game and kept our season alive. To suggest otherwise is just incorrect.

On the flip side, pointing out areas/aspects that weren’t good doesn’t equal ‘hyper-negativity’ to quote our friend.

But let’s keep posting about how negative the place is, it’s certainly helping things.

[jeemak]

Lol behaviour being called out? You’re unreal.

Nice edit by the way.

I posted it and edited it straight away because it seemed over the top (though not before Bulldog4life got his mitts on it!).

But that's what's happening right? Some posters are behaving/ posting in a way that others deem overly negative. You saying that being called out for that is the same as someone being gaslighted is an emotive equivalence to draw, right?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I posted it and edited it straight away because it seemed over the top (though not before Bulldog4life got his mitts on it!).

But that's what's happening right? Some posters are behaving/ posting in a way that others deem overly negative. You saying that being called out for that is the same as someone being gaslighted is an emotive equivalence to draw, right?

I get what you’re saying, but Comrade is eluding to the attempt, deliberate or not, to control what is posted on an Internet forum. That is the difference.

If people wanna see "unbearable", go jump on bigfooty for a few days and see what you think. I stopped going there because of how bad it became. On WOOF I just don’t see it. I agree that incessant, unreasoned negativity and blame doesn’t add anything to a discussion. But for the overwhelming majority of posts on here I just don’t see that. I appreciate all reasoned opinions on here as it leads to healthy and passionate discussion. If you find something incessant, simply ignore it.

Edit: sorry jeemak I’m not intending this specifically at you

[jeemak]

I get what you’re saying, but Comrade is eluding to the attempt, deliberate or not, to control what is posted on an Internet forum. That is the difference.

If people wanna see "unbearable", go jump on bigfooty for a few days and see what you think. I stopped going there because of how bad it became. On WOOF I just don’t see it. I agree that incessant, unreasoned negativity and blame doesn’t add anything to a discussion. But for the overwhelming majority of posts on here I just don’t see that. I appreciate all reasoned opinions on here as it leads to healthy and passionate discussion. If you find something incessant, simply ignore it.

Edit: sorry jeemak I’m not intending this specifically at you

Mate, I am wounded! How dare you? :)

Likewise I get what you're saying, and I left BF years ago for the same reasons.

It's a balance, possibly we need to air this stuff from time to time so we can all be a bit more considerate of each other irrespective of our points of view/ direction from which we're coming.

[FrediKanoute]

I like all the opinions, I just hate the pile on and hanging onto said opinion because it somehow may hurt your ego to admit, as we all are at times (me once but I was mistaken), we got it wrong.
Gardner is a prime example. The guy has played a handful of games and after a shaky start I've seen a little bit more each week to get excited about, I can't see a reason to continue any criticism.

I'll second that - credit where credit is due.

[Rocket Science]

And that is precisely the example of the lack of nuance that can be frustrating to converse with.

It's one fairly immutable snapshot of what we've achieved post-premiership.

Not an argument for quashing conversation around how and why.

[merantau]

To be fair we came into the season optimistic, then had the most demoralising and pathetic first two games actually possible, then came good but have still consistently been displaying the Beveridgisms that have plagued us for years, all wrapped up in a pandemic that has sucked the joy out of Melbourne.

I really enjoyed the other night fwiw, it was genuinely fun, but at the same time I think it's fair to acknowledge that we came very close to another frustrating loss with all the usual limitations on display.

I see you graduated from that "Realism 101" course with honours! I was in despair after those first two games. We have clawed our way back into contention with some good performances but, at the same time, have lost games against quality opposition, that we should have won. Why? Because of our our mistakes and the ability of the top sides to exploit our weaknesses. Our leading goal kicker is a small forward. Gang up on Naughton and Bruce is probably a mantra for opposition coaches. "And always be on the lookout for a quick release out of defensive 50, cos they don't defend deep and are always vulnerable to one over the top to Joe the Goose."

[merantau]

Mate, I am wounded! How dare you? :)

Likewise I get what you're saying, and I left BF years ago for the same reasons.

It's a balance, possibly we need to air this stuff from time to time so we can all be a bit more considerate of each other irrespective of our points of view/ direction from which we're coming.

In relation to other sites, I have not bothered to look at any of them except I do contribute to the WBFC Twitter feed and occasionally to the WB Supporters FB page.
However, in recent weeks I have spent quite a bit of time on Bomber Blitz and I highly recommend it. Herbatron's YouTube clips are top shelf. He is super talented, super perceptive and applies the blow torch mainly to the admin and coaches. There are also some very witty posters who resort to humour as the only way of coping with the years and years of absolute failure.
I feel the pain of these people. There are a lot of feral Essendon types on there too - but I just scroll past them and look for the gems such as:
"Don't forget to purchase your Limited Edition Cale Hooker's 200th Game Shiraz from the Marketing Department."

[Topdog]

Just like we ‘should’ have won by more, I guess?

Before the game we were 131.118 for the year.

So 52% of shots were goals. We then went at 33% accuracy
Darling was going at 33% from that position.

Not really the same.

We certainly could have lost but should have (and did) won.

[comrade]

Before the game we were 131.118 for the year.

So 52% of shots were goals. We then went at 33% accuracy
Darling was going at 33% from that position.

Not really the same.

We certainly could have lost but should have (and did) won.

Ok, whatever argument you’re tying to win, you win.

[MrMahatma]

6 wins from the flag.

[merantau]

Big game tonight. Cokers get the job done and that’s another nail in Saints/GWS/Pies coffins. We are the undertakers!

[Bulldog Joe]

Big game tonight. Cokers get the job done and that’s another nail in Saints/GWS/Pies coffins. We are the undertakers!

Actually think the Saints win tonight. West Coast have so many midfield outs.