Western Bulldogs Game Day V St. Kilda - Week 1 2020 Elimination Final Two

[bornadog]

The one thing I am happy about is we didn't role over, we gave it a real crack. We just need a couple of more players and we will be top four. It's been tough for all teams (except Port, West Coast most of the season, Brisbane and Suns ) living in a hotel room. Lockdown would have been worse without the sacrifice the players have made.

Gutted with this loss knowing we had our chances.

[Sedat]

Ryder had 4 marks and 9 disposals. He won the hitouts but we smashed them in clearances and stoppages. This game was lost because we stuffed around inside 50 and missed easy goals.

Respectfully disagree. Ryder was a massive influence on that result - he was clearly best on for mine, and he did it at both ends of the ground.

They were +4 in centre clearances and it was these clearances that created so many good looks.

Maybe we need to tweak the game plan so that our clearance wins around the ground are so much more impactful.

[GVGjr]

We didn't take our chances and that is the real shame of this loss

We probably carried two injured players into the game and then had 3 or 4 players underachieving on the day

It's really hard to know what we need to focus on to keep improving.

[bornadog]

Respectfully disagree. Ryder was a massive influence on that result - he was clearly best on for mine, and he did it at both ends of the ground.

They were +4 in centre clearances and it was these clearances that created so many good looks.

Maybe we need to tweak the game plan so that our clearance wins around the ground are so much more impactful.

Well I respectfully disagree too.

We didn't lose because of Ryder. We had 15 more inside 50's and missed easy goals. Wallis should have nailed two, Smith easy miss in the 3rd, Hunter hitting the post and lost by 3 points, let alone some stupid decisions by guys like Lippa's hospital handpass to Bont, Macrae and Gardener refusing to have a shot inside 50 and turning the ball over. Make no mistake, we were all over the Saints, but we just stuffed it again.

[FrediKanoute]

The one thing I am happy about is we didn't role over, we gave it a real crack. We just need a couple of more players and we will be top four. It's been tough for all teams (except Port, West Coast most of the season, Brisbane and Suns ) living in a hotel room. Lockdown would have been worse without the sacrifice the players have made.

Gutted with this loss knowing we had our chances.

I agree. We lost, but we made them earn it. Yes we probably should have won it, but the game threatened to be burst open in the third and we held on and made a game of it

[Rocket Science]

We got a look at Ryder and Marshall killing English in round 2 and combatted it with Dunkley as our first choice backup. We deserved that loss. I'm so angry.

Aye. Bravo to anyone who can be philosophical after that performance.

I can't.

[angelopetraglia]

Libba or Bont didn’t get a centre clearance all night. We lost the centre clearances 12-8 but didn’t get many clean looks.

[Eastdog]

Can’t fault our endeavour but gutted with that loss. So close yet so far.

[FrediKanoute]

Respectfully disagree. Ryder was a massive influence on that result - he was clearly best on for mine, and he did it at both ends of the ground.

They were +4 in centre clearances and it was these clearances that created so many good looks.

Maybe we need to tweak the game plan so that our clearance wins around the ground are so much more impactful.

He had a great game, an probably tipped the contest their way, but for the free ride he gave their mids, to win by 3 points isn't the domination.

[Sedat]

Well I respectfully disagree too.

We didn't lose because of Ryder. We had 15 more inside 50's and missed easy goals. Wallis should have nailed two, Smith easy miss in the 3rd, Hunter hitting the post and lost by 3 points, let alone some stupid decisions by guys like Lippa's hospital handpass to Bont, Macrae and Gardener refusing to have a shot inside 50 and turning the ball over. Make no mistake, we were all over the Saints, but we just stuffed it again.

If St Kilda took their chances in the 1st half they would have been out of sight before we woke up. Their structure was better and more reliable than our chaos style set up. They lapped up rebound marks with regular monotony, they had more dangerous key forwards, their rucks completely negated the one area we could dominate them and then turned it into a major strength. Their small forwards were very dangerous, more so than ours.

We busted our arse and we showed a lot of ticker to come back, but the damage done in the first 3 quarters was so pivotal to the final result.

[bornadog]

If St Kilda took their chances in the 1st half they would have been out of sight before we woke up. Their structure was better and more reliable than our chaos style set up. They lapped up rebound marks with regular monotony, they had more dangerous key forwards, their rucks completely negated the one area we could dominate them and then turned it into a major strength. Their small forwards were very dangerous, more so than ours.

We busted our arse and we showed a lot of ticker to come back, but the damage done in the first 3 quarters was so pivotal to the final result.

3 points, many misses. end game

[SonofScray]

Saints looked more dangerous all night. Their system beat ours. Our effort was probably higher for longer than them. Bevo had his pants pulled down.

Season over. It was another failure.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

A lot of the inside 50s were just bombs to no one in particular. We make it so hard for ourselves, though I'm not sure if we bomb because we have no faith in the forwards? I saw Naughton lead and be ignored a couple of times. The easy misses just kill you, and there was also JMac 1) not taking a shot when he should have and 2) missing everything when he had a shot.

I hope the close finish doesn't disguise the fact that we were outplayed for large chunks of the night. And the urgency we displayed in the last 10 minutes should have been there in the third quarter where the match was lost. Even in the first minutes of the last quarter we still looked flat.

Hindsight's a great thing, but the speed of Vander would have been handy.

This. We were a long way of it. We cannot go into next season with the same plan.
Our intensity was embarrassing tonight. It was not up to finals standard. Neither was the saints yet we still lost. We had a team that wasn’t up to finals standard and we didn’t take advantage. We have that experience. We talked up being ready for a physical match. Well, that is NOT how you play physical football. We should have smashed the saints players into oblivion. Instead they swatted our meek tackles away. I’m so disappointed with our effort because it’s like this season was just a big nothing. Didn’t learn a thing. Didn’t improve. Just like we didn’t give a yell in rounds 1 and 2 after two pathetic prior efforts, we then back up our last final and last poor performance against the saints with almost an exact replica. We don’t deal well with a week off.

[bornadog]

This. We were a long way of it. We cannot go into next season with the same plan.
Our intensity was embarrassing tonight. It was not up to finals standard. Neither was the saints yet we still lost. We had a team that wasn’t up to finals standard and we didn’t take advantage. We have that experience. We talked up being ready for a physical match. Well, that is NOT how you play physical football. We should have smashed the saints players into oblivion. Instead they swatted our meek tackles away. I’m so disappointed with our effort because it’s like this season was just a big nothing. Didn’t learn a thing. Didn’t improve. Just like we didn’t give a yell in rounds 1 and 2 after two pathetic prior efforts, we then back up our last final and last poor performance against the saints with almost an exact replica. We don’t deal well with a week off.

You can't say effort wasn't there. We had 41 tackles to their 32.

[DOG GOD]

We were outplayed and out coached for 2.5 quarters.
Ryder was easily the best big man on the ground, and made all those sainters around him stand tall.
Saints were more committed to the contest for longer periods and swatted our tackles away like flies.
Don’t let the last 10 mins flatter the team performance.
We learnt nothing from the loss in round 2.
Yes, we missed easy shot and so did they.

I’m not even that livid. I picked saints by 5 points and I said the Ryder/Marshall vs English would be the main issue. It was, but blind Freddy could’ve predicted that.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You can't say effort wasn't there. We had 41 tackles to their 32.

And we had just as many missed tackles. We got killed on transition AGAIN. The intensity required for finals just wasn’t there until it was too late. I’m sick of seeing so many mild mannered players in our side.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

If St Kilda took their chances in the 1st half they would have been out of sight before we woke up. Their structure was better and more reliable than our chaos style set up. They lapped up rebound marks with regular monotony, they had more dangerous key forwards, their rucks completely negated the one area we could dominate them and then turned it into a major strength. Their small forwards were very dangerous, more so than ours.

We busted our arse and we showed a lot of ticker to come back, but the damage done in the first 3 quarters was so pivotal to the final result.

Yep. Thinking our missed shots on goal was the reason we lost is papering over a lot of cracks. Ok, we would have won if we converted but the simple fact is any decent team would have obliterated the saints. They weren’t that good. They’re a system team and we gave them exactly what they wanted. This was extremely poor from Bevo and the players.

[G-Mo77]

I’m not even that livid. I picked saints by 5 points and I said the Ryder/Marshall vs English would be the main issue. It was, but blind Freddy could’ve predicted that.

I was less optimistic. When my brother texted me before the game and wished me all the best I texted back and said it would be 4 - 5 goals in the Saints favour. I'm not livid either but I'm pretty pissed off we're pretty much in the same position we were this time last season. The close game hopefully doesn't paper over the many cracks we have.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'm going to leave the angst and blame to others, I don't have any energy for that debate.
I just hope the club analyse and assess where we are at, and what needs to change to be a viable finals ready team.

My main takeaway from tonight was how ordinary both teams are in comparison to the level the others finalists have played at thus far.

[SonofScray]

I just hope the club analyse and assess where we are at, and what needs to change to be a viable finals ready team.


Not certain we'll get an honest, competent assessment.

[DOG GOD]

I'm going to leave the angst and blame to others, I don't have any energy for that debate.
I just hope the club analyse and assess where we are at, and what needs to change to be a viable finals ready team.

My main takeaway from tonight was how ordinary both teams are in comparison to the level the others finalists have played at thus far.

I was thinking the exact same thing watching it. Pressure wise and physically, both teams are miles from the top 4.

[Eastdog]

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/822117/bulldogs-season-comes-to-an-end


Bulldogs’ season comes to an end
A stunning final quarter surge wasn't enough to overcome St Kilda at The Gabba.


The Western Bulldogs’ 2020 season is over after a heartbreaking three-point loss to St Kilda in the Elimination Final at the Gabba.

A stunning last quarter surge from the Bulldogs was almost enough to get them over the line - a possibility which seemed highly unlikely at three quarter time.

The Dogs completely dominated the last term, kicking four of the last five goals to nearly overcome the 24-point deficit they faced at the final change.

Caleb Daniel drew the Bulldogs to within a single kick with only a couple of minutes on the clock, after goals from Tom Liberatore and Lachie Hunter.

But in the end, they ran out of time.

Earlier in the game, St Kilda’s dominance in the air was a cut above the Bulldogs, at both ends of the ground.

A leg injury to Dogs’ defender Zaine Cordy in the second quarter didn’t help their cause, with the Saints finishing the game with a season-high 21 contested marks for the match.

A stretch of three-straight goals from the Saints late in the third quarter split the game open, which was an arm-wrestle to that point.

Daniel finished his outstanding season with 26 disposals (including a game-high 12 contested possessions), despite spending large periods of the game being minded by St Kilda captain Jarryn Geary.

Bailey Smith toiled hard for his 24 possessions, while skipper Marcus Bontempelli finished with 20 disposals, four clearances and six inside 50s.

The Bulldogs finished the game with 16 more inside 50s than the Saints (including 13 more in the final term), and also narrowly won the clearance battle.


MATCH DETAILS

ST KILDA 2.2 5.4 9.6 10.7 (67)

WESTERN BULLDOGS 3.1 4.3 5.6 9.10 (64)


GOALS

St Kilda: King 2, Membrey 2, Ryder 2, Geary 2, Lonie, Butler

Western Bulldogs: Bruce, Johannisen, Crozier, Wallis, Dunkley, Naughton, Hunter, Liberatore, Daniel


BEST

St Kilda: Geary, Hannebery, Ryder, Clark, Howard, Membrey, Carlisle

Western Bulldogs: Smith, Daniel, Bontempelli, Williams, Crozier


INJURIES

St Kilda: Ryder (hamstring)

Western Bulldogs: Cordy (ankle)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm going to leave the angst and blame to others, I don't have any energy for that debate.
I just hope the club analyse and assess where we are at, and what needs to change to be a viable finals ready team.

My main takeaway from tonight was how ordinary both teams are in comparison to the level the others finalists have played at thus far.
This was mine too. But it’s worse for us than the saints. They haven’t played finals in 10yrs. We were there last year and got embarrassed. We spoke about that loss all season only to dish up a fairly meek effort again 12 months later.

Have we realistically improved?

[Bullies]

Just watching the Eagles vs Pies game. A player by the name of Roughead would have been handy to help out English in the ruck and down back.

[The bulldog tragician]

I’ve certainly seen matches where it was just our finishing that let us down but for me this didn’t feel like the main and definitely not the only issue.

Despite the rhetoric we didn’t raise our intensity to the right level. It was swept out of our defence too easily and we never look dangerous when it hits the deck in the forward line. We often scrambled really hard there only to see them somehow get it out. We didn’t react quickly when the Saints tactic on Caleb Daniel was paying dividends.

In those last 10 minutes we were desperate, yes, but it still felt like we had no real clue about how to win the game.

[whythelongface]

Just watching the Eagles vs Pies game. A player by the name of Roughead would have been handy to help out English in the ruck and down back.

I still don’t understand why we let him go. Anyway I need to move on.

[Sedat]

My main takeaway from tonight was how ordinary both teams are in comparison to the level the others finalists have played at thus far.
Could not agree more. The overall skill and pressure levels from both teams were not at the level of the first 2 finals.

We are a work in progress and need to address a number of key areas of concern, all of which have been well documented by many people on WOOF for the last couple of years. I hope we have a good look at the list and see how we can improve these areas of concern. St Kilda showed how specifically targeted recruits can have an instantaneous impact on an ordinary team. The reality is we are exactly where we deserved to be - we are 1-8 against finalists this year. We are a pretty good team and a long way from a great one.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I was thinking the exact same thing watching it. Pressure wise and physically, both teams are miles from the top 4.

I actually don't think we are THAT far off it, but we'll never get there by employing the same tactics of the last two years.

The fact we were playing HBFers as forwards tells you we have a severe lack of forwards on our list. If we don't rate Schache, Dale, Lloyd etc well get rid of some of them.

The ruck situation has been done to death and I know some above disagree, but surely one thing we CAN all agree on is that we can't go into 2021 as we have the last two years.

We need another solid key defender. We have one who has done absolutely nothing in two finals. Time to fill a need for us Naughty.

Vandermeer over Lipinski helps our severe lack of speed and we obviously could do with a small pressure forward.

We don't need wholesale changes, but we need a ruck and we need 1-2 high energy forwards.

[whythelongface]

I’ve certainly seen matches where it was just our finishing that let us down but for me this didn’t feel like the main and definitely not the only issue.

Despite the rhetoric we didn’t raise our intensity to the right level. It was swept out of our defence too easily and we never look dangerous when it hits the deck in the forward line. We often scrambled really hard there only to see them somehow get it out. We didn’t react quickly when the Saints tactic on Caleb Daniel was paying dividends.

In those last 10 minutes we were desperate, yes, but it still felt like we had no real clue about how to win the game.

Think this sums it up well. Our intensity, for whatever reason, just wasn’t there. We are just not up to finals footy at the moment. Our decision making is also an issue particularly our forward entries. We are just dumb. Hopefully as we mature this can be addressed. We need a couple more hard nuts in the middle (as well as some pace)

[angelopetraglia]

We lost the 2015 EF with 10 more i50 entries. We lost today with 16 more i50 entities. Except for a few small runs, Bevo has always struggled to stop conceding cheap goals against the flow and also to make the most of our forward entries. Particularly in pivotal matches that matter.

It’s a consistent trend except for the fairytale run in 2016.

[Hotdog60]

If you can read between the lines in Bevo presser he mentioned there could 6 different player in the team that played tonight.
He was referring to I suppose the list reduction but also there may be some heads on the block.

[Happy Days]

I'm still so angry.

[Vred]

I'm still so angry.

I turned off the game and stayed away from social media from half time onwards, kinda glad I did.

From what I saw, we are not a top 4 club, we are barely a top 8 club. Things need to vastly improve for us to even think of contending.

Im so sick of Bevo and his one sided *!*!*!*!ing ruck strategy. Josh Dunkley should never ruck.
period.
Ever.
Fix this issue and you fix half our problems.

[soupman]

Classic Beveridge era Dogs game.

Our faith in Tim English is admirable, and he will be a very good player, but as he has shown many times now that when he gets beaten it is a walloping, and our keenness t almost double down on such a low percentage strategy with nothing even close to resembling a plan b continues to be baffling.

Thought our defensive setup was really good and we did a great job of stopping St.Kilda transition quickly and get us out the back. I'm not sure they ever went coast to coast uncontested, and didn't really kick any goals where they just sprinted into open goal. I mean they obviously did, but not like last time. The times they ended up running into open goal were because they took contested marks up the field and/or inside 50 which enabled them to feed it out to that last bloke. Our aerial game was the worst i have ever seen. Gardner was comfortably our best in the air today, and when your timid, beanpole spoiler is the best aerial threat you have you are not going well.

The last quarter saw a couple of guys clunk one or two (English, Naughton, Keath once) but the rest of the game we were terrible. English was continually just moved out the way and struggled to impact anything, Keath was outmarked repeatedly and may have been my biggest disappointment, Naughton didn't look like marking it (or even just flat out getting it) and Bruce did his usual impression of a blind Rhinoceros who is just happy to be involved. We were killed by our inability to take an offensive mark to give us space to setup an attack and could not kill contests going the other way. Geary managed to EXPOSE Daniel deep (bizarrely the first time all season we have had him caught deep like that) and again our many mid sizers struggled to mark while their guys did. Really missed Crozier flying through the air at his intercepting best today.

Forwardline as usual was a shitshow. Our best forward (Wallis) may as well have not turned up, the only way he even looked like "winning" the footy was through soft frees. To our credit the pressure was immense though, and I'm astonished how good St.Kilda/Hunter Clark were at getting out of what seemed like impossible scenarios. I reckon there were about 5 instances where we had them screwed deep in our forwardline and somehow they managed to escape every time. We should have gotten at minimum 2 goals, maybe even 3 from these instances and instead I'm confident they managed to rebound atleast one of them for a goal. Thats a huge swing and as we have experienced so often was a case of us dominating play for no reward and indeed the opposite.

Lipinski was comfortably worst on ground for mine, an impressive effort considering Cordy was almost literally on the team bus by halftime. I am a big fan of Lipinski and by no means am writing him off, but his inability to even get involved for a half, and then to flunk his big moments (missed tackle/handball to Bont etc.) was horrible to watch. I think he will be a good player still, but he really needs to lift his competitive side of the game.

Thought we weren't well coached today. I understand why we tried to do a lot of the things we did but we were slow to fix thing and change things up. Daniel in particular seemed to be kept in defence on Geary for 3 quarters despite getting no traction, he was much better late but earlier than that we should have been moving him around to free him up. Such an important player to our ball movement and was largely ineffective for the majority of the game.

A weird game where I felt like simultaneously the result was much closer than it should have been and yet an unlucky result considering I think we did enough to win. St.Kilda are very enjoyable to watch though and I wish them well, and really feel for Ryder if his injury does turn out to be not so good.

A frustrating end to a frustrating season, I bit like Gardners season it went from utterly atrocious to thoroughly serviceable with glimpses of being actually decent, but stuff needs to change if we are going to take the step forward we need to take next year.

[DOG GOD]

Some really hard decisions need to be made on players. Schache doesn’t get picked because of his lack of intensity, yet English does coz we pretty much have no other ruckman on our list.

At the end of the day, we are not going to be a top 4 side while we have English as our only ruck, Wallis as our best forward, Gardner, Cordy and Wood all down in defence, and no “true” forwards.

[jeemak]

Well that was extremely frustrating.

Too much running through my head to post or read anything substantial.

We were a bit dumb with the footy, a bit lazy at times in key moments without it, stupid in aerial contests which was exacerbated by poor communication among our defenders and very cautious in transition. We had too many players down.

And we almost stole the game.

The thing that annoyed me most apart from how meek some of our efforts in the air were, was that we couldn't finish off tackles and earn a free kick. So many times when we tackled someone it didn't stick or if it did, we didn't finish it off and let them off the hook.

[bornadog]

Yep. Thinking our missed shots on goal was the reason we lost is papering over a lot of cracks. Ok, we would have won if we converted but the simple fact is any decent team would have obliterated the saints. They weren’t that good. They’re a system team and we gave them exactly what they wanted. This was extremely poor from Bevo and the players.

Very confusing

[bornadog]

Some points from Bevo:

* THE WESTERN Bulldogs "won't be idle" during this year's Trade Period following its elimination final loss to St Kilda on Saturday.

* "Some of the areas we got touched up in tonight were because we didn't have the role players," he said.

"Our boys will learn a lesson or two, but we'll still be looking at what the possibilities are, whether there's an acquisition here or there on trade that will really help us, give us some depth, put some pressure on for spots and performance.

* "We couldn't quite spoil some of those long down the line situations well enough … and they got us out the back at different times," Beveridge said.


"They're at their full capacity as far as height goes our boys.

* "We do rely on help in the air, and our timing in helping each other in the air was not there today.


"You bide your time and put the time into your players and support them and help them and hope you can win games like this and continue on, but sometimes reality sets in, which it has tonight."


Bruce and Naughton were again disappointing in the forward half, kicking a goal apiece and combining for just five marks.

* "I think our forwards didn't get themselves in the right spots and they didn't compete well enough in the air. It hurt us.


"And the Saints got us with some of their speed at times.


"Those transitions out of our front end, where we not only didn't compete well enough, but we let them out of there too easy, I think that was the main difference tonight."

* "We had a handful of guys that weren't at their best and we can't afford that with the vulnerabilities we have in our side."

[The Bulldogs Bite]

With reduced list sizes, do we think there will be more or less trading done by all clubs?

[Happy Days]

Whatever. Its fine. We’ll be good next year and have Gowers and Bruce off the list by then. Its fine.

[bornadog]

With reduced list sizes, do we think there will be more or less trading done by all clubs?

Lists are looking at only a 2 player reduction

[Happy Days]

I’m still so cut anyone wanna meet up at Yarraville nets and punch each other in the mouth over and over?

[GVGjr]

With reduced list sizes, do we think there will be more or less trading done by all clubs?

Probably more trading gets completed because I think clubs won't necessarily want to wait until the draft for the fear another club will jump in before them

If lists get down to 38 then clubs may need to delist and then hopefully redraft the same player

I hope Sam Power is well in advance of looking at the likely scenario's

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Very confusing

Not really. Converting can mean we win. But missing doesn’t make it THE reason we lose.

[bornadog]

Not really. Converting can mean we win. But missing doesn’t make it THE reason we lose.

sorry still confusing

[Rocket Science]

So the coach boldly asserts probably "six" blokes who played today won't be in the 2021 opening round side.

I feel like culling twice that many right now but putting the Bevo genius cap on for a moment, who's he gunning for?

By way of replacements the only certainty for mine from the current list is Vandermeer.

[Dry Rot]

So the coach boldly asserts probably "six" blokes who played today won't be in the 2021 opening round side.



Did Bevo say that? Who do reckon he was referring to?

[Dry Rot]

OK, two questions for you all.

Q1. Which of our 22 players this afternoon won their position/role?

Q2. Which of our 22 players this afternoon broke even with their position/role?

[SonofScray]

So the coach boldly asserts probably "six" blokes who played today won't be in the 2021 opening round side.

I feel like culling twice that many right now but putting the Bevo genius cap on for a moment, who's he gunning for?

By way of replacements the only certainty for mine from the current list is Vandermeer.

Apparently 8 players didn't lay a tackle. That will account for some of the list surely.

[GVGjr]

Apparently 8 players didn't lay a tackle. That will account for some of the list surely.

I'm not sure it will but here are the players

Wallis, Naughton, Keath, Gardner, Duryea, B.Smith, Williams and Hunter
Cordy, Naughton and Bruce got just 2 kicks each. Bruce got just one kick after the opening goal

[whythelongface]

So the coach boldly asserts probably "six" blokes who played today won't be in the 2021 opening round side.

I feel like culling twice that many right now but putting the Bevo genius cap on for a moment, who's he gunning for?

By way of replacements the only certainty for mine from the current list is Vandermeer.

So who would be the six? - R Smith; Richards; Bruce; Wood; Duryea; Cordy - some of these obviously won’t happen eg Bruce due to contractual arrangements, but just trying to think of the six

[Happy Days]

I never want to see Bruce again. If Schache was in the positions he was we would’ve won, and one season is enough of a chance. Tell me why he shouldn’t get the Trengove treatment.

[SonofScray]

I'm not sure it will but here are the players

Wallis, Naughton, Keath, Gardner, Duryea, B.Smith, Williams and Hunter
Cordy, Naughton and Bruce got just 2 kicks each. Bruce got just one kick after the opening goal

Thats even worse than I thought, without having seen the list initially. Not good enough from the talent on that list. A 5% improvement on that front from any of them and there's a whole bunch of extra what ifs to think about if we still lost.

Bruce's exposed form with us c.f to Schache is starting to really upset me as I reflect on it and the variance in how each have been treated. He tries, and I've warmed to him as the season has worn on, despite his form not really picking up at all. Held to a different standard than the better performed forward in Schache.

Naughton, looked like he could have been the guy to kill the contest late with a few marks. Once the tempo lifted from his peers up the ground, he started to look like a threat. But it was too little too late.

Cordy was part of a backline that looked under siege and ill prepared to deal with the tall timber and easy entries that St Kilda enjoyed. Not much joy in his footy this year.

[GVGjr]

Pleasing to see Bevo clean shaven, tidy hair and talking openly and honestly about the loss today in the presser

Expect us to trade for a tall and rejig the forward line for next season

The likes of Garcia could easily be in the plans for round one next season and Weightman should be prepared to work his backside off over the pre-season

It was interesting to hear his comments on ruckman and the fact that he is unsure of how the state league will look

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I never want to see Bruce again. If Schache was in the positions he was we would’ve won, and one season is enough of a chance. Tell me why he shouldn’t get the Trengove treatment.

Did someone take you up on your offer at the Yarraville nets? If Schache was capable of getting in the positions Bruce got into, we wouldn't have needed to trade for Bruce.

Don't get me wrong Bruce was ordinary....based on Bevo's unhappiness with our forward defensive pressure as a major contributor to the outcome, I'm not sure Schache would've changed things.

[Happy Days]

Did someone take you up on your offer at the Yarraville nets? If Schache was capable of getting in the positions Bruce got into, we wouldn't have needed to trade for Bruce.

Don't get me wrong Bruce was ordinary....based on Bevo's unhappiness with our forward defensive pressure as a major contributor to the outcome, I'm not sure Schache would've changed things.

If you’re gonna do the tug at the jumper then you don’t lose a one on one to a ruckman and you don’t give away A NEEDLESS FREE KICK CAUGHT OUT OF POSITION WITH 40 SECONDS LEFT YOU BASTARD JUST BRING THE BALL TO GROUND YOU MORON WHAT WERE YOU EVEN DOING

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Those mental heavyweights at Fox..querying Bonts performance.
I thought he was great.
We were sat next to our interchange; he definitely has a hip issue, and in the 2nd half he had work on his hip twice, and was being monitored by the medical team as he did warm ups along the boundary in the 4th Q.
I'm not concerned by his performance today, but I am concerned his hip is still a big concern.
It was obvious the medical team were concerned about it.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

If you’re gonna do the tug at the jumper then you don’t lose a one on one to a ruckman and you don’t give away A NEEDLESS FREE KICK CAUGHT OUT OF POSITION WITH 40 SECONDS LEFT YOU BASTARD JUST BRING THE BALL TO GROUND YOU MORON WHAT WERE YOU EVEN DOING

I'll give you that...

Do not head to the nets tonight, you're bound to take a life!!

[SonofScray]

Those mental heavyweights at Fox..querying Bonts performance.
I thought he was great.
We were sat next to our interchange; he definitely has a hip issue, and in the 2nd half he had work on his hip twice, and was being monitored by the medical team as he did warm ups along the boundary in the 4th Q.
I'm not concerned by his performance today, but I am concerned his hip is still a big concern.
It was obvious the medical team were concerned about it.

Its a huge concern that it keeps flaring up and seems to really limit him at times.

He was fairly well performed tonight I think. There's whole other levels he is capable of but I'm not sure we'll see it as often as we'd like because of this hip issue. He looked fresh after one of the 8 days breaks we had, his form really picked up. Took a knock late tonight and it just seemed to suck the life out of him.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If Bonts hip is bad, should we consider playing him elsewhere? CHF?

[Rocket Science]

Did Bevo say that? Who do reckon he was referring to?

"Our team will change significantly. By the time we play round one there's probably gonna be six different players in this team".

Interesting statement. Loaded with inference.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

"Our team will change significantly. By the time we play round one there's probably gonna be six different players in this team".

Interesting statement. Loaded with inference.

It's kind of an odd thing to say so soon after the game.

* I don't disagree. I could probably name 8.

[Rocket Science]

It's kind of an odd thing to say so soon after the game.

* I don't disagree. I could probably name 8.

It's curious isn't it?

Swinging the axe isn't hard after an outing, and frankly a season like that, but where are these ready-made replacements?

Musing randomly ...

Who might've stamped their own papers today?

If someone isn't worthy of selection in round one 2021 perhaps they shouldn't have been selected for an elimination final?

Who are we so confident of attracting, that's presumably best-22, to prompt the coach to volunteer that?

Is Ugle-Hagan in this conversation? And does that mean another lengthy experiment with the growing pains that ensue?

I really dunno, but the coach seems to.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

sorry still confusing

In a 3 point game you could pick out dozens of things as THE reason we lost. Lay one tackle in our friggin goal square and we win. Put a body on Max King and we win. Communicate with Daniel to switch so he isn’t left one out. Stick a tackle. One of our forwards leads to the right spot on the ground. Stick a tackle. Don’t get caught in transition etc etc.

Point is there were a multitude of reasons we lost. The score line flattered us. In purely looking at scoreline it’s fairly obvious to say if we kicked straight we would have won. But the saints could have said they’d have won by more if Geary doesn’t miss from 15m out. If we’re kicking ourselves ONLY because we missed two gettable shots then we’ve completely overlooked a lot of glaring deficiencies in our game. And it seems Bevo is well aware of it judging by his presser.

[Sedat]

With reduced list sizes, do we think there will be more or less trading done by all clubs?
With such a compromised draft due to a huge number of NGA's and F/S, I reckon there will be more trading than normal

[kruder]

Rapt to make the finals after an 0-2 start, at the start of the year I was hoping to win a final so weren't too far away but gee we pissed that final away today.

The frustrating thing was how we lost it, predictable indeed.

Interestingly Collingwood were prepared to bring in an extra ruck to help out Grundy which also enabled Cox play exclusively forward. It won them the game. They also tried this set up multiple times during the year.

Bevo waisted the opportunity by playing Dunkley their midseason rather than giving Trengove/Sweet a serious crack at it. I've loved that we continued to develop Timmy all year but ultimately it was a big reason why we lost this game

The whole football world knew that Caleb was going to get isolated deep in the finals, yet we took 3 quarters to wake up and get him dangerous. Loved his season but when the whips are cracking Caleb shouldn't be playing in defence.

What is with our love for half back flankers? It was so obvious before the game that we lacked natural forwards and that scoring was going to be an issue. Crozier has been playing exclusively in defence for three years yet because of our imbalance list and blind faith in Easton Wood(how he get a 2 year deal is beyond me) he becomes another player out of position under the banner of flexibility.

We had quite a few premiership players out their today and I just don't think they are hungry enough yet, that game for 3 quarters looked like a regular season game. Our tackling was bloody awful and often resulted in over the back goals, it staggering considering the performance we dished up last year in the finals.

We can and must do better next year. I just hope we don't spend the first 15 weeks throwing players all over the joint looking for a best side again. It's time for Bevo to get serious, time is now.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think Bevo's presser was again revealing:

1. He is well aware of our ruck predicament. I mean its crystal clear for him. He's also very well aware of Tim's strengths and is bending over backward to find a way to accommodate them.

2. He's predicting 6 changes between now and round 1 21...Jayzus. he is clearly not happy or ticking a box for a finals appearance...I'm happy with that..
3. I don't care at all what happens in the finals in 2020..i just want to see how with JUH coming in (at a draft pick premium cost) how we work to still make changes Bevo has flagged.

[angelopetraglia]

Six changes sounds like a lot. But there were eight changes between our 2015 EF loss and 2016 GF win. Also, similar amount of changes from the 2020 EF and 2019 EF. Sounds about normal.

[angelopetraglia]

Player who played in the 2019 EF who were not there tonight:

McLean
Hayes
Young
Shaq
West
Suckers
Dale
Lloyd

[Eastdog]

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/822225/-we-re-enthusiastic-about-our-future-beveridge

We’re enthusiastic about our future’: Beveridge
Despite a falling short of the second week of AFL Finals for the second consecutive year, Luke Beveridge believes his squad has grown across the last 12 months.

The Western Bulldogs’ long and arduous Queensland ‘adventure’ is over, but the future remains bright for the Club, according to coach Luke Beveridge.

The Bulldogs fell agonisingly short of advancing to the second week of the finals, falling by three points to St Kilda at the Gabba on Saturday.

While clearly shattered to have been knocked out in an Elimination Final for the second successive year, Beveridge believes the squad has shown growth over the last 12 months.

“It’s been a really tough campaign. I couldn’t be any prouder, I couldn’t commend our players any more for the way they’ve persevered throughout the course of the year,” he said.

“We know improvement and development isn’t linear.

“Off the back of last year, we would’ve liked to have had a much better start. We know it was muddled. We know we were disappointing early.

“But there’s been significant growth in our year. I’m encouraged by it. We’re enthusiastic about our future with our growth.

“Ultimately you want to win tonight. We’d like to be in the top four. We’re not.

“We’d like to win an elimination final and give ourselves another look, and continue on. It ends in disappointment, even though there are some positive aspects of the year.”

The Bulldogs will leave their Gold Coast hub over the coming days, ending a three-month stint away from home.

Once the dust settles, they will turn their attention to how they can improve their list during the off-season.

“We’ve got to keep bolstering out list with the attributes that are important in the way the game is played,” Beveridge said.

“Some of the areas that we probably got touched up a bit in tonight were probably because we probably didn’t have the role players to really see it through at different times throughout the course of the night.

“Our boys will learn a lesson or two, but we’ll still be looking at what the possibilities are, whether there’s an acquisition here and there on trade that will help us, give us some depth, put some pressure on for spots and performance. We won’t be idle.”

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Six changes sounds like a lot. But there were eight changes between our 2015 EF loss and 2016 GF win. Also, similar amount of changes from the 2020 EF and 2019 EF. Sounds about normal.

What about from 2015 EF loss - 2016 R1 or 2016 GF - R1 2017 or 2019 EF loss - R1 2020?

Bevos message came across quite pointed, particularly given he referenced we don't have role players in the roles required, a number of players being down etc.

Interesting to see if this materialises into a deep cut into the list or if it's him blowing off smoke.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Bailey Williams increased his reputation and value.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Cant believe I'm subjecting myself to this. .
The opportunity for Geary at end of first Qtr..Thanks goodness Geary missed..
That was putrid..from all involved

[NoseBleed]

If you’re gonna do the tug at the jumper then you don’t lose a one on one to a ruckman and you don’t give away A NEEDLESS FREE KICK CAUGHT OUT OF POSITION WITH 40 SECONDS LEFT YOU BASTARD JUST BRING THE BALL TO GROUND YOU MORON WHAT WERE YOU EVEN DOING

What a dick.
You are everything that’s wrong with football fan sites, right there.

[Eastdog]

We are all venting at the moment. It will calm down in a few days.

[NoseBleed]

It’s a game folks.

We lost a game. By three points. After losing a tall backman that was part of the defense plan before half time.

I’m still waiting to see someone ask how/wonder how Cordy is.

We we’re poor today. The other team were less poor, and didn’t lose a lynch pin early.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

What a dick.
You are everything that’s wrong with football fan sites, right there.

He's hanging out at the Yarraville nets if you want to put one on his chin!

Seriously though, you need to read his volume of work to understand his intent and style.
He's not a dick, he's not even a naughty boy!

[Eastdog]

It’s a game folks.

We lost a game. By three points. After losing a tall backman that was part of the defense plan before half time.

I’m still waiting to see someone ask how/wonder how Cordy is.

We we’re poor today. The other team were less poor, and didn’t lose a lynch pin early.

Hopefully not too serious for Zaine. I think he needs to have some scans.

[hujsh]

Pleasing to see Bevo clean shaven, tidy hair and talking openly and honestly about the loss today in the presser

Expect us to trade for a tall and rejig the forward line for next season

The likes of Garcia could easily be in the plans for round one next season and Weightman should be prepared to work his backside off over the pre-season

It was interesting to hear his comments on ruckman and the fact that he is unsure of how the state league will look

Again? How many do we need? Would we not be better with a ruck to swap forward with English?

[Sedat]

Pleasing to see Bevo clean shaven, tidy hair and talking openly and honestly about the loss today in the presser

Expect us to trade for a tall and rejig the forward line for next season
Whilst I agree that we need to rejig our forward line mix, we were sold the concept last summer of a 3-pronged key forward set-up of Naughts, Schache and Bruce, as well as Keath as a defensive rebounding interceptor. We never saw the 3-pronged key forward set-up once all season and we used Keath in a completely different role as a lock-down key defender all season. Lewis Young barely played despite holding down a key defensive post late last year. Trengove wasn't used in defensive or ruck capacity save for 1 game as a late call-in, and we didn't give Sweet even one opportunity to at least have a look a different ruck set-up, instead choosing to use stop-gap alternatives like Dunks and Bruce in there to help English out.

I'm not really any the wiser after Bevo's presser today as to what we will be targeting and how we intend to structure up next season.

[GVGjr]

Whilst I agree that we need to rejig our forward line mix, we were sold the concept last summer of a 3-pronged key forward set-up of Naughts, Schache and Bruce, as well as Keath as a defensive rebounding interceptor. We never saw the 3-pronged key forward set-up once all season and we used Keath in a completely different role as a lock-down key defender all season. Lewis Young barely played despite holding down a key defensive post late last year. Trengove wasn't used in defensive or ruck capacity save for 1 game as a late call-in, and we didn't give Sweet even one opportunity to at least have a look a different ruck set-up, instead choosing to use stop-gap alternatives like Dunks and Bruce in there to help English out.

I'm not really any the wiser after Bevo's presser today as to what we will be targeting and how we intend to structure up next season.

There are a number of challenges but I took what he said in the presser to me was he was looking for ways to support English rather than bringing in someone to replace him.
He noted the lack of height but you would have to think that with Schache injured, Sweet not ready and Lewis Young and Trengove not in favor there were no other options so we will look at bringing in another tall via a trade.

I can't see us playing 3 tall forwards despite what we said so unless Naughton is moved back into defence (and that shouldn't happen) we need to find other homes for the likes of Schache and probably Lewis Young especially with Ugle-Hagan's pending arrival. It's very doubtful Trengove gets another season

There will be plenty of KPP available from other clubs this year so we need to unearth the next Gardner or Hamling to add some depth

[macca]

In the presser , Bevo mention “ wont be idle “ in the trade period . Does anyone know/ speculate who we may be targeting ?

English needs some serious support . I would hate to wear him out like what happened to Josh Fraser at the pies

I get a sense he has lost some patience with some players . My Guess is schache , gowers and potentially Young might be cut . I don’t like saying as I would love for them to achieve their potential.

[SonofScray]

Whilst I agree that we need to rejig our forward line mix, we were sold the concept last summer of a 3-pronged key forward set-up of Naughts, Schache and Bruce, as well as Keath as a defensive rebounding interceptor. We never saw the 3-pronged key forward set-up once all season and we used Keath in a completely different role as a lock-down key defender all season. Lewis Young barely played despite holding down a key defensive post late last year. Trengove wasn't used in defensive or ruck capacity save for 1 game as a late call-in, and we didn't give Sweet even one opportunity to at least have a look a different ruck set-up, instead choosing to use stop-gap alternatives like Dunks and Bruce in there to help English out.

I'm not really any the wiser after Bevo's presser today as to what we will be targeting and how we intend to structure up next season.
That reads very poorly on the vision our coach has. He also lamented the 3rd man up rule change, according to comments I read overnight. That stinks.

[GVGjr]

Bevo's comments about ruckman weren't positive

"With list sizes shrinking adding another ruckman was an interesting conundrum for clubs"
Bevo was hesitant a rivals back-up who wanted to change clubs to be the number No.1 man because he wasn't convinced with that attitude
He then talked about the 3rd man rule

If we take that as a well thought out comment we might look at adding another ruckman but I wouldn't count on it being a quality ruckman capable of competing with English for the number one spot. At best we might target a player capable of playing a few positions like a more mobile and younger version of Trengove or maybe and experienced player who is happy to be the number 2.

On game day though I suspect we will still use forwards to help out more than setting up like the Saints or Port

[comrade]

There are a number of challenges but I took what he said in the presser to me was he was looking for ways to support English rather than bringing in someone to replace him.
He noted the lack of height but you would have to think that with Schache injured, Sweet not ready and Lewis Young and Trengove not in favor there were no other options so we will look at bringing in another tall via a trade.

I can't see us playing 3 tall forwards despite what we said so unless Naughton is moved back into defence (and that shouldn't happen) we need to find other homes for the likes of Schache and probably Lewis Young especially with Ugle-Hagan's pending arrival. It's very doubtful Trengove gets another season

There will be plenty of KPP available from other clubs this year so we need to unearth the next Gardner or Hamling to add some depth

In hindsight, last years trade period was the time to go harder. We had an early-ish pick not tied to any sort of NGA points.

The side and game plan overall has not improved a bit in 12 months.

[GVGjr]

In the presser , Bevo mention “ wont be idle “ in the trade period . Does anyone know/ speculate who we may be targeting ?

English needs some serious support . I would hate to wear him out like what happened to Josh Fraser at the pies

I get a sense he has lost some patience with some players . My Guess is schache , gowers and potentially Young might be cut . I don’t like saying as I would love for them to achieve their potential.

Early days yet on potential recruits but we will start to be linked with players soon enough
We should look at moving at least one of if not both of Schache and Young on if they have fallen out of favor from being considered for senior spots.

[GVGjr]

In hindsight, last years trade period was the time to go harder. We had an early-ish pick not tied to any sort of NGA points.

The side and game plan overall has not improved a bit in 12 months.

It absolutely was

The interesting part to me is hearing Bevo say we needed to add some height, well we did that last year by adding two established bookend players from other clubs and now 12 months on we still need more depth.
I assume he is acknowledging that we are either still too light on for KPP or he's as good as put a line through Young and Schache and we need to trade with other clubs for what we want

[SonofScray]

In hindsight, last years trade period was the time to go harder. We had an early-ish pick not tied to any sort of NGA points.

The side and game plan overall has not improved a bit in 12 months.

I'm going with us having taken a backwards step.

Last year when we went on the big run to finals, our football was pretty joyful. We beat more than one Top 8 side (Eagles barely count this year either). Players on their toes, kicking goals and really looking like they'd hit their straps after some genuinely awful performances.

We got the awful performances again. We got an upswing in form again. We've failed in an Elimination final again (3rd time under Bevo). 2020 has been a mess, so there's a bit of leniency in my assessment, we're in the margins. Win a final and I would feel better. We didn't. I don't.

There is enough talent on the list to expect better. I want to see our guns playing well, to their strengths and enjoying their footy. They've been hamstrung by a shit system.

[azabob]

Some points from Bevo:

* THE WESTERN Bulldogs "won't be idle" during this year's Trade Period following its elimination final loss to St Kilda on Saturday.

* "Some of the areas we got touched up in tonight were because we didn't have the role players," he said.

"Our boys will learn a lesson or two, but we'll still be looking at what the possibilities are, whether there's an acquisition here or there on trade that will really help us, give us some depth, put some pressure on for spots and performance.

* "We couldn't quite spoil some of those long down the line situations well enough … and they got us out the back at different times," Beveridge said.


"They're at their full capacity as far as height goes our boys.

* "We do rely on help in the air, and our timing in helping each other in the air was not there today.


"You bide your time and put the time into your players and support them and help them and hope you can win games like this and continue on, but sometimes reality sets in, which it has tonight."


Bruce and Naughton were again disappointing in the forward half, kicking a goal apiece and combining for just five marks.

* "I think our forwards didn't get themselves in the right spots and they didn't compete well enough in the air. It hurt us.


"And the Saints got us with some of their speed at times.


"Those transitions out of our front end, where we not only didn't compete well enough, but we let them out of there too easy, I think that was the main difference tonight."

* "We had a handful of guys that weren't at their best and we can't afford that with the vulnerabilities we have in our side."

BAD, what did you make of Beveridges ruck comments?

It appears we will not be changing our ruck strategy and we will be hoping English develops into a strong, competitive player, and then we will be able to compete as a top four club. A lot of faith is being placed in English.

His throwaway line on 3rd man up was disappointing.

[azabob]

If you can read between the lines in Bevo presser he mentioned there could 6 different player in the team that played tonight.
He was referring to I suppose the list reduction but also there may be some heads on the block.

I wouldn't take too much into it. Typically sides have turn overs, even Grand Final teams it is very rare the exact same 22 run out the next year.

[azabob]

Probably more trading gets completed because I think clubs won't necessarily want to wait until the draft for the fear another club will jump in before them

If lists get down to 38 then clubs may need to delist and then hopefully redraft the same player

I hope Sam Power is well in advance of looking at the likely scenario's

I wonder how much time being our COVID compliance officer has taken Sam away from doing his list management role?

[SonofScray]

I wouldn't take too much into it. Typically sides have turn overs, even Grand Final teams it is very rare the exact same 22 run out the next year.
I do not think it has ever happened, where a GF winning side goes into R1 unchanged.

[Danjul]

Bevo's comments about ruckman weren't positive

"With list sizes shrinking adding another ruckman was an interesting conundrum for clubs"
Bevo was hesitant a rivals back-up who wanted to change clubs to be the number No.1 man because he wasn't convinced with that attitude
He then talked about the 3rd man rule

If we take that as a well thought out comment we might look at adding another ruckman but I wouldn't count on it being a quality ruckman capable of competing with English for the number one spot. At best we might target a player capable of playing a few positions like a more mobile and younger version of Trengove or maybe and experienced player who is happy to be the number 2.

On game day though I suspect we will still use forwards to help out more than setting up like the Saints or Port

Who beat us regularly. Nothing to learn from that.

[azabob]

What a weird game.

Reality is we should have won but did not deserve to.

We were sluggish across all areas of the ground until mid way through the fourth quarter.

Our midfield was well down and were extremely disappointing. I was extremely disappointed in Bailey Smith and Tom Liberatore. Smith started ok, but faded very quickly. I'm not even going to bother talking about Lipinski (Vandameer should've come in for him).

Macrae its hard to know how much of an impact the Long hit had on him - but I'm not sure how we best utilise Macrea in 2021, his kicking is a major major worry.

Beveridge can go on about score differential from the center clearances all he wants, reality is come finals time we need our ruckman to be able to influence each and every ruck contest. I don't want to wait four years and have blind faith that English will come good.

Whether he halves it or wins it - we need to give our midfield players a chance. I'd much prefer Bontempelli, Smith, Liberatore, Macrae to be pro active at ruck situations rather than re-active and guess where the opposition ruckman will hit the ball.

I get you need a point of difference to win football games, but our current ruck strategy does not work. Bevo, 3rd man up is not coming back... We need to adapt accordingly.

Not sure what to make of our defence, but things seem to improve once Cordy went off the ground and Crozier went back. I'd love to see Daniel train with the midfield group over pre season and play as a wingman - Does anyone know what his tank is like?

I think its also clear that the Keith, Gardiner and Cordy combination does not work. We need three big bodies, but not that mix.

Keith and Gardiner need to sort their sh*t out - still seems no love lost there - they are locker mates and our two key defenders, I assume that will also be the case in 2021. I think they need to have a few beers together and figure out a way to support each other rather than blame each other.

We cannot go into 2021 with our match day team having so many defenders as their best position Daniel, Williams, Duyrea, Crozier, Gardner, Johannisen, Keath, Wood, Richards, Cordy (and dare I say Naughton). They become liabilities when forced to play elsewhere.

Our forward line was terrible. No movement, no connection, no defensive intent. Naughton clearly was worried about his injury and Wallis should not have played.

Our forward system has been non existent since 2017 and something needs to change. I think both player personal and coaching strategy needs to change in this area of the game.

We need natural forwards. We are desperate for Bailey Dale and Josh Schache to step up and fill these roles.

Apparently there is not enough time to review this match and it will be reviewed once pre season resumes. I'm disappointed by this comment.

[kruder]

There is going to be a lot of talk about talls as there usually is come trade time but this group lacks a hard edge.

VDM/West can help little in this area, but it's something we need to address. Bevo has stated numerous times that this group doesn't play like that, but we need to add a few that will set the standard for the group.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Bevos presser was at the same time promising and worrying. He mentioned all the things we’ve all been concerned about for a few years - lack of ruck support, lack of quality KPPs, lack of role players. Yet our current list has largely been built under his tenure. Why have we continually recruited half back flankers? Why have we not been more serious about the ruck situation? Trengove, Schache and Bruce were all recruited to the club and have barely fired a shot.

The talk of 6 changes is nothing new. It’s the typical minimum turnover each year. I hope we’re doing all we can to shake this list up. I know Heath Shaw is past it and I’m not suggesting we recruit him but I’d love to see his biff in our side. Libba, again, was the only one applying the physicality required of a final.

[Hotdog60]

Apparently there is not enough time to review this match and it will be reviewed once pre season resumes. I'm disappointed by this comment.

I think that was more to do with the players were they sit down together and review the game. I'm sure the coach will have a good look before the exit interviews.

After this season as much as I like Astro up forward I'd be inclined to send him back and I would replace him with Sweet who at 203cm gives some good height in the forward line and a chop out for Tim. In hind sight this is what we should have done from round one and stuck with it.
If Sweet's tank is an issue then get him is own personnel aerobic instructor in the off season and send him off with Dunks and Bont to the USA.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

There is going to be a lot of talk about talls as there usually is come trade time but this group lacks a hard edge.

VDM/West can help little in this area, but it's something we need to address. Bevo has stated numerous times that this group doesn't play like that, but we need to add a few that will set the standard for the group.

What’s happened to Bailey Smith btw? That photo of him taking it up to Stringer was fantastic. Yet this year he’s been so placid. I hope we’re not turning him into an upright citizen and it’s affecting his natural game.

[Hotdog60]

What’s happened to Bailey Smith btw? That photo of him taking it up to Stringer was fantastic. Yet this year he’s been so placid. I hope we’re not turning him into an upright citizen and it’s affecting his natural game.

May be Bailey is just having the typical 2nd years blues.

[GVGjr]

I wonder how much time being our COVID compliance officer has taken Sam away from doing his list management role?

He will have stayed on top of things with the player managers.

Power has done an outstanding job at keeping us out of the headlines for covid issues

[GVGjr]

What’s happened to Bailey Smith btw? That photo of him taking it up to Stringer was fantastic. Yet this year he’s been so placid. I hope we’re not turning him into an upright citizen and it’s affecting his natural game.

I think he might have dropped off a bit after he was as good as KO'd earlier in the season.
He will get back on track quickly enough

[azabob]

Bevo's comments about ruckman weren't positive

"With list sizes shrinking adding another ruckman was an interesting conundrum for clubs"
Bevo was hesitant about a rival clubs back-up who wanted to change clubs to be the number No.1 man because he wasn't convinced with that attitude
He then talked about the 3rd man rule

If we take that as a well thought out comment we might look at adding another ruckman but I wouldn't count on it being a quality ruckman capable of competing with English for the number one spot. At best we might target a player capable of playing a few positions like a more mobile and younger version of Trengove or maybe and experienced player who is happy to be the number 2.

On game day though I suspect we will still use forwards to help out more than setting up like the Saints or Port

I do not expect us to bring in a ruckman of any note. We should and need to. I don't think we will.

[GVGjr]

I do not expect us to bring in a ruckman of any note. We should and need to. I don't think we will.

I suppose there is an outside chance something will just appear and excite him but the more likely scenario's are a young player who's been in the system a couple of years who comes to us via a low level trade or draft pick or a hybrid defender to can help out in the ruck

Of course if there happens to be a 194cm midfielder or Bilcavs type that could be some other options

It's more likely that it's English for the seniors and Sweet learning his craft at Footscray in 2021 with some mixes and matches along the way

[G-Mo77]

I do not expect us to bring in a ruckman of any note. We should and need to. I don't think we will.

It's kind of hard to do as well with the uncertainty of 2021. We needed to address this much earlier now we're stuck with this problem.

[Danjul]

I suppose there is an outside chance something will just appear and excite him but the more likely scenario's are a young player who's been in the system a couple of years who comes to us via a low level trade or draft pick or a hybrid defender to can help out in the ruck

Of course if there happens to be a 194cm midfielder or Bilcavs type that could be some other options

It's more likely that it's English for the seniors and Sweet learning his craft at Footscray in 2021 with some mixes and matches along the way
The ruck is going as planned. Here’s the team’s average hitouts per game.
2014 .....41
2015 .....38
2016 .....33
2017 .....34
2018 .....28
2019 .....24
2020 .....20

If that’s not a trend then I have never seen one.

[CarnTheScray]

Apologies in advance for my colourful language but English will never be a ruckman's a**hole. I am telling you now he is a half forward tall flanker. Get a ruck immediately.

I don't see JJ and Richards playing in our next premiership side, so trade them for second round picks (could get 2 out of JJ).

We carry a lot of list cloggers and downhill skiiers like Lipinski who will never stand up in finals. We have a few great great players that carry us week in week out. We won't be competing for a flag until they are replaced with people that actually have the desire to put in effort and have ambition to become a good player.

[Rocket Science]

Six changes to an entire list between seasons might be standard practice but the coach seemed to be referring to the selected side, not routine annual list turnover.

[mjp]

I do not expect us to bring in a ruckman of any note. We should and need to. I don't think we will.

We will draft an athletic kid - English clone - mark my words.

[bornadog]

Six changes to an entire list between seasons might be standard practice but the coach seemed to be referring to the selected side, not routine annual list turnover.

That is how I understood it.

Maybe Bevo was just angry and emotional how we all are so close after a game. When things settle down, everyone will look at things a bit more rationally.

[bornadog]

We will draft an athletic kid - English clone - mark my words.

Exactly how I see it as well. You can forget a Pruess, Goldy, type. In today's game lumbering rucks are a hindrance.

[Sedat]

On game day though I suspect we will still use forwards to help out more than setting up like the Saints or Port
St Kilda are an interesting contrast to us - they had Marshall as a sole ruckman last year and he was outstanding in the role, having a breakout season. And yet they changed up their ruck structure in the off-season by going two-pronged in the ruck. Their overall team performance improved markedly, despite their midfield numbers regressing apart from Steele. I notice with interest that they aren't resting on their laurels and are going after Tim Taranto big time to improve that area of their list, even though they are still a live chance this year.

We have banked on incremental improvement from the existing list to become a better team. There's no right or wrong way to improve your list but for some reason trading is seen as a desperation move whereas drafting and development is seen in a much more palatable light even though there may be a number of years before the investment pays off (and often doesn't with most drafted players)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Exactly how I see it as well. You can forget a Pruess, Goldy, type. In today's game lumbering rucks are a hindrance.

Goldy is far from a hindrance BAD.

No fan of Norf but he was and still is a very, very good player.

[azabob]

We will draft an athletic kid - English clone - mark my words.

What would you do with our ruck situation?

[bornadog]

Goldy is far from a hindrance BAD.

No fan of Norf but he was and still is a very, very good player.

You know what I mean, a lumbering type of ruckman - I can't see us recruiting one. We got rid of Minson, Campbell and Roughy because they weren't athletic types.

[MrMahatma]

St Kilda are an interesting contrast to us - they had Marshall as a sole ruckman last year and he was outstanding in the role, having a breakout season. And yet they changed up their ruck structure in the off-season by going two-pronged in the ruck. Their overall team performance improved markedly, despite their midfield numbers regressing apart from Steele. I notice with interest that they aren't resting on their laurels and are going after Tim Taranto big time to improve that area of their list, even though they are still a live chance this year.


We have banked on incremental improvement from the existing list to become a better team. There's no right or wrong way to improve your list but for some reason trading is seen as a desperation move whereas drafting and development is seen in a much more palatable light even though there may be a number of years before the investment pays off (and often doesn't with most drafted players)

We brought in Keath and Bruce last trade period. Schache the year prior. We use a mix of trade and development.

[bornadog]

We brought in Keath and Bruce last trade period. Schache the year prior. We use a mix of trade and development.

In Bevo's time we have brought in Suckling, Lloyd, Trengove, Schache, Bruce, Keath, Duryea, Crozier.

You have to ask if this strategy is working? In 2016, 22 players, only 3 were from other clubs, and they came off rookie lists.

[Sedat]

Goldy is far from a hindrance BAD.

No fan of Norf but he was and still is a very, very good player.
Goldy a lumbering ruckman??? Wow. He is an aerobic beast who is also extremely competitive one-on-one, is a brilliant tap ruck exponent, and can also clunk a mark up forward. To lump him in with Preuss and the other dinosaurs does him a great disservice. Preuss has a dreadful tank, doesn't have great ruckwork nous (hell, even Dunks was able to deal with him at stoppages) and gets by on being a physical and aggressive ruckman in short bursts (because that's all he can do). He is a million miles from Goldy in almost every way. If Goldy was a couple of years younger I'd throw a contract offer at him in a heartbeat and it would only benefit English's game not detract from it.

I don't think anybody is advocating we get a dinosaur type like a Preuss, who I don't rate for the reasons mentioned. Marshall and Ryder are a great example of complimentary strengths, as is Ladhams and Lycett. Alternatively, we can continue to play Tim as virtual sole no 1 ruck and see him continue to get monstered by the really good stoppage ruckmen in the better teams (whilst also robbing Tim of his great assets around the ground). And we can also continue to play around with other funky moves like using Dunks in ruck with Tim standing next to him in D50 and call this 'supporting' English.

[bornadog]

And we can also continue to play around with other funky moves like using Dunks in ruck with Tim standing next to him in D50 and call this 'supporting' English.

I don't believe one person is advocating that.

[Danjul]

Exactly how I see it as well. You can forget a Pruess, Goldy, type. In today's game lumbering rucks are a hindrance.
All the evidence is that we cannot be successful without one.

[SquirrelGrip]

We will draft an athletic kid - English clone - mark my words.

Who is out there who meets those criteria?

[Danjul]

I don't believe one person is advocating that.
We saw it yesterday. At a boundary throw in early in the game. Dunkley took the ruck and English ran away to the interchange.

Happening too often.

All the other teams have supporters who worry about what opposition coaches are planning. Can’t we go back to that?

[Sedat]

We brought in Keath and Bruce last trade period. Schache the year prior. We use a mix of trade and development.
Keath was a clear structural acquisition and a very good one at that. Bruce was an acquisition with an eye to replacing the previous key forward acquisition, Schache, that we don't seem to have faith in (otherwise the much mooted 3-pronged key forward set up of Naughts, Bruce and Schache would have been in play from R1). Preceding both of these was the specifically targeted KPP free agent acquisition of Trengove, who has barely played in 2 of the 3 years we signed him up for. So we have effectively done 3 trades/FA, all on decent coin and decent length of tenure, and have not materially improved our list at all with any of them so far. This replacement trading is counter-productive - if we identified a player we need in an area, that player should immediately make us much better and for many years.

Then you have the Duryea, Crozier, Lloyd, etc.. fringe type trades where you can get some gold (Crozier) but aren't really addressing an urgent area of deficiency and are more about adding depth to the list. These are fine but they aren't going to make a massive difference to sharp overall improvement, and we haven't improved sharply in the last couple of years even with these trades.

[DOG GOD]

What’s the bet we choose a hbf’er in the draft lol

[mjp]

Who is out there who meets those criteria?

There are a couple. One is from the same club Tim was recruited from.

[Sedat]

I don't believe one person is advocating that.
The MC have effectively advocated this as the support offered to Tim by using this tactic so often and also using Bruce as ruck relief, presumably because he has been so abject as a key forward target all season.

We haven't helped Tim's development at all in the last 2 years IMO. In fact, I think we are really hurting him in other areas. I don't think we understand what we have with him, as we are seemingly hellbent on trying to turn him into something he is not, hiding under the cover of 'development'.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The MC have effectively advocated this as the support offered to Tim by using this tactic so often and also using Bruce as ruck relief, presumably because he has been so abject as a key forward target all season.

We haven't helped Tim's development at all in the last 2 years IMO. In fact, I think we are really hurting him in other areas. I don't think we understand what we have with him, as we are seemingly hellbent on trying to turn him into something he is not, hiding under the cover of 'development'.

Needless to say we are also going about ruining Dunkley by asking him to play ruck, inside mid and 'rest' as a marking forward. I'm not sure who has had it worse in terms of a lack of support - English or Dunkley.

[DOG GOD]

Needless to say we are also going about ruining Dunkley by asking him to play ruck, inside mid and 'rest' as a marking forward. I'm not sure who has had it worse in terms of a lack of support - English or Dunkley.
Totally agree. I just don’t understand what the MC see in what they are doing.

[bornadog]

Totally agree. I just don’t understand what the MC see in what they are doing.

I think the MC felt they had no choice.

In the end Dunkley only played a couple of games in relief ruck when they were giving Tim a break.

[G-Mo77]

I think the MC felt they had no choice.

In the end Dunkley only played a couple of games in relief ruck when they were giving Tim a break.

It's happened most games BAD if not all. Ok not in the centre bounce but on boundary throw ins or ball ups. It happened yesterday. Are the MC and List Managers separate entities that don't communicate? This needed addressing much earlier and our failures will continue if we keep following the same broken path.

[bornadog]

Ryder out for rest of season - bad luck for him

[SonofScray]

It's happened most games BAD if not all. Ok not in the centre bounce but on boundary throw ins or ball ups. It happened yesterday. Are the MC and List Managers separate entities that don't communicate? This needed addressing much earlier and our failures will continue if we keep following the same broken path.

Hardly saw it happen in the last month. Return to the tactic at times last night.