I hate the St Kilda Matchup - Tell me how we win this game???

[mjp]

I really hate this match-up.

It just seems that the Saints are strong where we are weak...and their fast method of ball movement causes huge trouble for our zoning defence. Further to all that, they are at the very least 'solid' (Ruck + inside mids) where we are strong (inside mids) and, well...

Is anyone else just thinking 'Why couldn't it have been West Coast? Or Collingwood? Or even Richmond?"

Looking forward with dread. Hoping I am wrong (of course) but just not feeling it.

[1eyedog]

I'm optimistic.

Our defence has been very solid over the past month. I think we're no 2 for goals against and our defence withstood a very direct Freo and a fast moving Melbourne side as well. Both teams were constantly hung up at half back or on a wing against us and spent a lot of energy trying to switch the play or looking for short options. In contrast the Saints have been treading water for a few weeks now and while they do have the ability to move the ball quickly so do Collingwood and Richmond. They're a young side, the vast majority playing in their first final.

There's no easy game from this point. If Wood can blanket Membrey and Keath can halve King's ability in the air I have faith in our mids being able to dominate possession. Our issue is forward we must take all of our chances when the opportunities present.

[dog town]

I am also feeling the anxiety about this one MJP.

Their small/medium forwards really concern me getting forward or even out the back completely. Our ball use is important to our defensive organisation even more than normal.

They have been more methodical in their build up since we played them but will go extremely quick if the option is there which is where they got us.

Their small forwards are clever even on a slow entry as well and read the spill well.

Ruck is a worry at Gabba as it is fairly unforgiving if you’re conceding out of the middle. That is a major worry for me in that we have been going ok there and haven’t had a clear disadvantage for a few weeks.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I really hate this match-up.

It just seems that the Saints are strong where we are weak...and their fast method of ball movement causes huge trouble for our zoning defence. Further to all that, they are at the very least 'solid' (Ruck + inside mids) where we are strong (inside mids) and, well...

Is anyone else just thinking 'Why couldn't it have been West Coast? Or Collingwood? Or even Richmond?"

Looking forward with dread. Hoping I am wrong (of course) but just not feeling it.

I do agree. I am worried about their fast ball movement and our zoning defence as well as the ruck situation.

Our mids are going to have to play exceptionally well both with and without the ball.

That said, we do have 2 weeks to prep for them. They don't have a lot of stars and I think they are system driven so if we can figure it out we could shut them down. I just hope Bevo doesn't go into this game with a 'we play the game on our terms' mentality. We need to counter them rather than rely on playing our best brand to win.

Honnestly this game is as 50-50 as they come. I have no idea what to expect.

[comrade]

I'm hoping we just grind them down in the middle, and the Saints overall inexperience in big games gets the best of them.

It's not in our DNA but I wouldn't be against a GWS-style physical ambush from the first bounce.

Definitely a genuine 50/50, IMO but I'd certainly prefer the Saints first up than Richmond or WC in Perth.

[comrade]

Ruck is a worry at Gabba as it is fairly unforgiving if you’re conceding out of the middle. That is a major worry for me in that we have been going ok there and haven’t had a clear disadvantage for a few weeks.

I'm much less concerned about our ruck set up at centre bounces than around the ground.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The saints' shot charts in their wins vs their losses is telling. When they're able to get shots square on goal about 15m out (which is what they love) they will have a field day. Force them wide and high and we will fair better (just as the cats did to them). Having an extra defender back should help us out here. We can't give them space in their 50. Having Gardner in form will help us here as he along with Cordy and Keath will allow the likes of Wood, Crozier, Williams and Dureya to provide better intercept and ground support. We do not want a shootout that's for sure.

If our mids can pressure their forward 50 entries we'll have a decent shot.

[SonofScray]

(g+b)+1

[whythelongface]

The key to their success is the Ryder/ Marshall combo. If we can negate their influence then we should be right on top, however this will be a huge challenge for our MC. It won’t and can’t rest on English alone. If we aren’t dominated on this area our mids will be all over the Saints mids - this is their weakness. Steele is very good but the rest are hit and miss. The other key is Butlers influence. He has been exceptional.

[comrade]

Butler has trailed off the last month after having a barnstorming first half of the season. We've also got the perfect match up in Duryea for him now.

[dog town]

The key to their success is the Ryder/ Marshall combo. If we can negate their influence then we should be right on top, however this will be a huge challenge for our MC. It won’t and can’t rest on English alone. If we aren’t dominated on this area our mids will be all over the Saints mids - this is their weakness. Steele is very good but the rest are hit and miss. The other key is Butlers influence. He has been exceptional. Butler has actually dropped away recently but still a major concern. Liam Ryan and Garry Rohan may play differently but they have similar athletic attributes and both torched us.

[comrade]

Butler has actually dropped away recently but still a major concern. Liam Ryan and Garry Rohan may play differently but they have similar athletic attributes and both torched us.

I haven't watched a ton of St Kilda this season but I don't think Butler gets up the ground as much as either Ryan or Rohan. He's also no where near the aerial threat they both are. I think Duryea can stick in his back pocket and keep him quiet.

[Happy Days]

I haven't watched a ton of St Kilda this season but I don't think Butler gets up the ground as much as either Ryan or Rohan. He's also no where near the aerial threat they both are. I think Duryea can stick in his back pocket and keep him quiet.

He doesn’t but he is significantly faster than them (even Rohan). I’m confident with Duryea in the air but he’d want to be goalside at all times.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

They do match up well against us.

Our mids need to be accountable and at or close to their best - if they are, we win.

[Axe Man]

He doesn’t but he is significantly faster than them (even Rohan). I’m confident with Duryea in the air but he’d want to be goalside at all times.

Nobody is significantly faster than Rohan, he's consistently been measured as one of the quickest in the league by GPS data.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I haven't watched a ton of St Kilda this season but I don't think Butler gets up the ground as much as either Ryan or Rohan. He's also no where near the aerial threat they both are. I think Duryea can stick in his back pocket and keep him quiet.

Butler does get up the ground but he's no danger there. He's a fairly ordinary kick when he's not 15m out from goal. He also dislikes physical contact so we should make his life difficult in this area. Although he is almost as bad a flopper as Riewoldt so we'd need to be careful with the umpires.

[Bulldog4life]

Looking at St.Kilda they have a number of down hill skiers which looks great if your team has the pill. That is the key. Our on ballers.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Looking at St.Kilda they have a number of down hill skiers which looks great if your team has the pill. That is the key. Our on ballers.

Yep. But we've had plenty of games this year where we've made downhill skiers looks amazing. Our pressure since the Lions game has been way better so hopefully we don't revert back.

[AshMac]

Our issue is forward we must take all of our chances when the opportunities present.

This. 100%. We need to capitalise on our opportunities and focus on efficiency inside 50 (should be a focus every week).

I think we can match them around the ground everywhere but the ruck and we can compensate for that.

[The bulldog tragician]

This entire thread makes me nervous.

I’ve got an uneasy feeling too. We need to be focused and physically strong. In our EF defeat last year it was as though GWS knew and were prepared for the extra urgency of a final and we weren’t. We must reverse that from the opening bounce. This is also where my uneasy feelings about Gardner and R Smith return to haunt me. They’ve both improved a lot but are both players that have struggled with confidence. “Nearly there” players like Hayes and Dale were rabbits in the headlights against the Giants. We can’t afford to have poor contributions from the bottom six.

On the other hand...we are likely to have around nine premiership players out there. (Bont, Dunkley, Hunter, Wood, Macrae, Cordy, Libba, JJ, Daniel). Duryea is also a premiership player. We should have the edge. Why doesn’t it feel that way?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

This entire thread makes me nervous.

I’ve got an uneasy feeling too. We need to be focused and physically strong. In our EF defeat last year it was as though GWS knew and were prepared for the extra urgency of a final and we weren’t. We must reverse that from the opening bounce. This is also where my uneasy feelings about Gardner and R Smith return to haunt me. They’ve both improved a lot but are both players that have struggled with confidence. “Nearly there” players like Hayes and Dale were rabbits in the headlights against the Giants. We can’t afford to have poor contributions from the bottom six.

On the other hand...we are likely to have around nine premiership players out there. (Bont, Dunkley, Hunter, Wood, Macrae, Cordy, Libba, JJ, Daniel). Duryea is also a premiership player. We should have the edge. Why doesn’t it feel that way?

It's something about the Saints BT. Can't quite put my finger on it myself. I dunno, everything seems to fall their way when we play them. Reading recaps of the 09 prelim certainly doesn't help.

Re Gardner, call me crazy but I feel a lot more confident in our defence with him in it now. Just a lot more assured with him, Cordy and Keath. Without him I'd be having anxiety attacks of the thought of Max King clunking mark after mark and kicking 6 along with Marshall.....wait I still have that anxiety.

[Grantysghost]

Ratten has only ever won one final and that was against Essendon so doesn't count.
I'm confident our contested game will stand up in finals.

[1eyedog]

. We should have the edge. Why doesn’t it feel that way?

I don't gamble but the betting market suggests we do.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Ratten has only ever won one final and that was against Essendon so doesn't count.
I'm confident our contested game will stand up in finals.

The last time the Saints won a final was the 2010 prelim against us.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The last time the Saints won a final was the 2010 prelim against us.

Time to turn the tables.
Very much Bevo v Ratten.

[LostDoggy]

This. 100%. We need to capitalise on our opportunities and focus on efficiency inside 50

One of my St Kilda mates is quietly nervous about Josh Bruce producing one of those dominant performances forward of centre that he seems to produce a maximum of twice per season (ie. against North this year). Will be playing his first final so it'll be interesting to see how he goes against his old side.

I'd be rapt if he could take his chances up forward and help Tim break even in the ruck, which would go a long way in helping us get a result.

[comrade]

One of my St Kilda mates is quietly nervous about Josh Bruce producing one of those dominant performances forward of centre that he seems to produce a maximum of twice per season (ie. against North this year). Will be playing his first final so it'll be interesting to see how he goes against his old side.

I'd be rapt if he could take his chances up forward and help Tim break even in the ruck, which would go a long way in helping us get a result.

That would be so, so sweet.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

One of my St Kilda mates is quietly nervous about Josh Bruce producing one of those dominant performances forward of centre that he seems to produce a maximum of twice per season (ie. against North this year). Will be playing his first final so it'll be interesting to see how he goes against his old side.

I'd be rapt if he could take his chances up forward and help Tim break even in the ruck, which would go a long way in helping us get a result.

Ohh that'd be sweet. I know we got to a flag before they did, but I still feel like it's our time when it comes to playing the saints. They've had it fall their way the last decade when playing us. Now it's our turn. Bruce kicking a bag would be the perfect start.

[jeemak]

I'm thinking we can exploit the Saints desire to move the ball quickly and with some risk, particularly if they're not fielding a team of seasoned finals campaigners. If we can get our pressure levels to where they need to be then we can cause turnovers and create opportunities.

My biggest concern is that we don't capitalise on the opportunities presented, we should get plenty and we need to make the most of them.

This year compared to last we've not had the same high performance levels on the run home, but we've been competitive for a while now and have had to win each game for the last three weeks to make it. For some reason the preparation and the way we're playing gives me confidence.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

If it rains, who does it benefit most? Both teams like to move the ball quickly. I'd think us but it's not like we are any good in wet conditions.

[comrade]

If it rains, who does it benefit most? Both teams like to move the ball quickly. I'd think us but it's not like we are any good in wet conditions.

Rain is our game plan's kryptonite.

[bornadog]

If it rains, who does it benefit most? Both teams like to move the ball quickly. I'd think us but it's not like we are any good in wet conditions.

Won't be raining

[Axe Man]

Won't be raining

You got tonights Powerball numbers too?

[bornadog]

You got tonights Powerball numbers too?

As a matter of fact :D

https://media3.giphy.com/media/utmZFnsMhUHqU/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47wyhxrkpem8h27cbgcr8f6y6p9ciwpn4wanbjef dw&rid=giphy.gif

[Topdog]

I'm very confident for this one which is a weird feeling as I am a glass qtr full kind of guy.

Our form lines are nearly polar opposites as they have been quite poor recently.

Our mids are in sublime form at the moment and I'm expecting Libba to be in beast mode again.

[comrade]

Our mids are in sublime form at the moment and I'm expecting Libba to be in beast mode again.

Yeah, Bont is pretty much in full flight and Libba is like a marauding beast. If they both are at their best against Saints, good luck stopping us.

[SonofScray]

Scoreboard pressure is the key I think. If we can play "on our terms" that's great and should go a long way to beating them. However, if we haven't cashed in for the moments that our scoring grinds to a halt and the pressure dips, they'll get their tails up and start getting creative. We don't respond well when its getting away from us, or when we have to get going again.

Cash in when the goings good.

Goals from Bruce, English and Bont are gold in this contest IMO.

[bornadog]

Saints are one of the best for centre clearances and this is an area we need to negate and at least break even.

The other area is the Saints are very good at tackling inside 50 and rank second and this is where they get their run from their defense.

In most other stats, we are pretty even.

We need to be accurate getting the ball inside 50, or they will punish us.

[DOG GOD]

I really hate this match-up.

It just seems that the Saints are strong where we are weak...and their fast method of ball movement causes huge trouble for our zoning defence. Further to all that, they are at the very least 'solid' (Ruck + inside mids) where we are strong (inside mids) and, well...

Is anyone else just thinking 'Why couldn't it have been West Coast? Or Collingwood? Or even Richmond?"

Looking forward with dread. Hoping I am wrong (of course) but just not feeling it.

I’m very concerned. Firstly, their ruck. I think Timmy will be smashed by Ryder/Marshall, and that in turn with give first use to their “less” flashy midfield. Billings has been a huge problem the last 3 times we have met, averaging 25 disposals and 2 goals per game. The likes of Ross and Steele always play well against us. My saints mate says we have the midfield to be top 2-3, but we always struggle against lesser midfield. Saints are solid down back, but they have plenty of marking power, And pace in the front half. If they get first use out of the ruck, I’d expect a lot of inside 50’s for the saints, and our backs under immense pressure. We cannot allow them to have easy set shots directly in front from 20-30 metres, and we certainly can’t afford to let Butler run onto the ball over the back for goal square goals.

I’m hoping we can negate the ruck influence. I’m very concerned about how Wallis and Naughton will play, and without them being an influence, I feel we will be lucky to kick 6-7 goals.

[Doc26]

Responding to the OP, our ball use efficiency is one area that will be key. Last time around the Saints had 9 players going at greater than 75% kicking efficiency, we had 1 (Williams). From the same game, of those players with 4 or more Clangers, the Saints tally was 9, ours tallied 28.

There will be in the order of 6 changes to our list from that selected in our last encounter, notably Hunter and Libba as ins makes us significantly better where it counts. Cordy, Duryea and Wood as ins gives as added experience, particularly finals experience down back.

Dale, Gowers and Lloyd all offered very little in our previous encounter and unless Mitch fails to come up our forward half is unlikely to have these 3 in the mix.

The other plus for us this time around is that they’re missing their A grader in Gresham who really hurt us with 420 metres gained, 12 kicks, 12 handballs and 5 tackles. Handy to have out. Whilst not as damaging as Gresham it would seem unlikely that Lonie comes up who also hurt us as a small forward.

The ruck is no doubt a significant concern. I’m more concerned by the damage that Ryder could inflict than Marshall in this area.

Ryder had a whopping 55.6 hit out to advantage rate and 64.3 hit to to win % against Tim. Marshall’s numbers were relatively matched to Tim. So it’s critical that we’re aware of this discrepancy with Ryder and more important that we can address it this time around.

Whilst Steele has become their prime midfielder, and Zak Jones return will strengthen them on the outside it’s Billing’s that I’d like us to put work into and mitigate him getting anywhere near the 470 metres gained that he racked up last we met.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I think we beat them in the guts and at the coalface. Libba, Macrae, Bont, Bailey Smith, Dunkley and Libba. Did I mention Libba?
They should be able to control the contested ball. That's where we win.

[Twodogs]

I'm thinking we can exploit the Saints desire to move the ball quickly and with some risk, particularly if they're not fielding a team of seasoned finals campaigners. If we can get our pressure levels to where they need to be then we can cause turnovers and create opportunities.

My biggest concern is that we don't capitalise on the opportunities presented, we should get plenty and we need to make the most of them.

This year compared to last we've not had the same high performance levels on the run home, but we've been competitive for a while now and have had to win each game for the last three weeks to make it. For some reason the preparation and the way we're playing gives me confidence.

If we control the ball we will win. Luckily that's what we've done for the last few weeks.

[mjp]

Responding to the OP, our ball use efficiency is one area that will be key. Last time around the Saints had 9 players going at greater than 75% kicking efficiency, we had 1 (Williams). From the same game, of those players with 4 or more Clangers, the Saints tally was 9, ours tallied 28.


I like a few of your points but this one concerns me because it DIRECTLY relates to game-style. We have not defended well vs fast ball movement teams for a couple of seasons now (hell, think back to the 2015 elimination vs Adelaide in q4) and that is what the Saints do...we structure up a strong zone defense vs mark and kick teams but don't react quick enough on opposition play-on to close down a direct opponent...which means they will have open players (literally) everywhere...

I hate this match-up.

[dog town]

I like a few of your points but this one concerns me because it DIRECTLY relates to game-style. We have not defended well vs fast ball movement teams for a couple of seasons now (hell, think back to the 2015 elimination vs Adelaide in q4) and that is what the Saints do...we structure up a strong zone defense vs mark and kick teams but don't react quick enough on opposition play-on to close down a direct opponent...which means they will have open players (literally) everywhere...

I hate this match-up. The first change of angle or 45 kick they use to open up running lanes is critical I think. Always is but that’s where it seems to open up for them.

[Bulldog Joe]

I see the concern from mjp and understand.

Over the last few games we have controlled teams that are not fast ball movement, but we have looked vulnerable when the opposition move it quickly.

Personally I have what I would class as an apprehensive confidence.

I think Tim English will be much improved from the round 2 clash and have us much closer to break even. What I have observed is that Tim is getting more hitouts than earlier, but he can get decisive hitouts.

We also have Libba (who missed rd 2) in superb form and Bont has improved his output throughout the season.

I see our mids as better than theirs.

Hunter gives us a big plus from round 2 as well.

We do need to take our chances, as well as defend their movement, but I truly believe we are just better.

GO DOGS!!

[jeemak]

I like a few of your points but this one concerns me because it DIRECTLY relates to game-style. We have not defended well vs fast ball movement teams for a couple of seasons now (hell, think back to the 2015 elimination vs Adelaide in q4) and that is what the Saints do...we structure up a strong zone defense vs mark and kick teams but don't react quick enough on opposition play-on to close down a direct opponent...which means they will have open players (literally) everywhere...

I hate this match-up.

Does the fast ball happen more often when we swamp the disputed footy and leave outlets open? Is it more likely to be an issue when we compress our forward 50m and waste countless opportunities?

I reckon it is and these things seem to have been alleviated somewhat by us in recent times, through being more organised and having had a team/ defenders with a little bit more continuity in playing together compared to when we were touched up on the spread by teams earlier in the year.

Our major concern should be how do we adapt to having the things we want to do stifled, as the Saints will put a lot of time into stopping the likes of Bont, Jacko, Caleb and Hunter who are all integral to us winning.

[Sedat]

From the R2 debacle, our midfield is much stronger with Libba and Hunter in. Theirs is weaker with Gresham out. They aren't going to get a +17 hitouts to advantage (the largest differential ever apparently) that they enjoyed in R2.

I am confident we can get the win. They are a good team with weapons, so are we.

[boydogs]

You beat them by controlling the midfield, that's why Essendon haven't been successful because they are so weak in the middle

[jeemak]

You beat them by controlling the midfield, that's why Essendon haven't been successful because they are so weak in the middle

Excellent ball kicking of Essendon in an unrelated thread. We need more of this, BD, keep up the good work!

[merantau]

I believe we are in better form than them at the moment and are fielding a much stronger team than in R2. We should we comfortably
My concern is that we keep them in the game with poor kicking, especially poor kicking for goal, thus opening the door for some dodgy free kicks to be paid at the death and we get done.

[Mofra]

I am confident out midfield brigade is better than theirs, but I'm really worried about the ruck situation. I think the ruck issue from R2 hasn't been resolved and they will have a significant advantage there - especially if it becomes a slog and a territory game, where multiple ruck stoppages in a row can gain the stronger rucking side some territory.

Hunter is a huge in though. I'm really hoping Wally gets up too

[comrade]

I'd be pretty disappointed if we didn't have some sort of plan to combat the ruck issue, given all 3 of our possible EF opposition heading into the last round have dominant big men.

We basically let Timmy get destroyed on his own in round 2, at least now Bruce is being used to provide a chop out. He's not going to tap it down Bont's throat over and again but if he can at least halve his contests and ensure the ball doesn't get ripped out of the ruck easily by the Saints ruckman, that's a big improvement on earlier in the year.

[Eastdog]

Yeah they have had the wood on us in recent times but I reckon we are in some very good form right now really should have beaten the Cats and if we get a strong output from our midfielders and get the goals will hopefully win. Hoping Josh Bruce has a big game.

[bornadog]

Yeah they have had the wood on us in recent times but I reckon we are in some very good form right now really should have beaten the Cats and if we get a strong output from our midfielders and get the goals will hopefully win. Hoping Josh Bruce has a big game.

We have won 6 of the last 10, with 2018 our last win

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We have won 6 of the last 10, with 2018 our last win

2 of those 4 wins were in games where Clay did his ACL for the 4th time and the other when Wallis broke his leg and Redpath did his ACL.

Have I mentioned that before?

Our last two losses have been disappointing though.

[Go_Dogs]

Saints are definitely a tough match up. They’re quick, they will kill us on the turnover, and they have enough variety in their avenues to goal that makes them unpredictable. As much as I was gutted Wally didn’t make the AA squad (he should have) in the half dozen Saints games I’ve seen bits and pieces of Butler has been phenomenal and gives them a very dangerous look.

Why we will beat them:
Bont
The Big Chilli Bush
Caleb
Libba
Crozier
Williams

We have enough quality and ability to shutdown/work off to not give them any easy ball. English is critical and that is likely to involve significant work taking pack marks around the ground, in the hole, up front.

We need our forward half functioning with space and shorter entry kicks that limit potential for fast break turnovers. The defensive effort our forwards put in to create contests and lock the ball in will be critical. Bruce is starting to hit form in the air and I’m quietly confident he could arrive next week.

[Bulldog4life]

I feel confident about this game. A number of positive changes to our side since we played them earlier in the year. We even have "premiership" experience which you just can't just buy. I think we will come out breathing fire....yes fire my friends. Much better than playing West Coast in WA I think we all agreed. Doggies by 3 goals plus for mine.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

One thing I’ve noticed in the recent game day summary videos is that in Bevos speeches to the players, he has emphasised being physical for the benefit of your teammates. Sacrificing your game for others. He clearly saw our work off the ball as a major weakness and reason for our losses. It’s certainly been a lot better in the last few weeks.

[1eyedog]

Saints are definitely a tough match up. They’re quick, they will kill us on the turnover, and they have enough variety in their avenues to goal that makes them unpredictable. As much as I was gutted Wally didn’t make the AA squad (he should have) in the half dozen Saints games I’ve seen bits and pieces of Butler has been phenomenal and gives them a very dangerous look.

Why we will beat them:
Bont
The Big Chilli Bush
Caleb
Libba
Crozier
Williams

We have enough quality and ability to shutdown/work off to not give them any easy ball. English is critical and that is likely to involve significant work taking pack marks around the ground, in the hole, up front.

We need our forward half functioning with space and shorter entry kicks that limit potential for fast break turnovers. The defensive effort our forwards put in to create contests and lock the ball in will be critical. Bruce is starting to hit form in the air and I’m quietly confident he could arrive next week.

You forgot Naughton. I know he was only just starting to regain touch but he is like an evil Supervillian to every single backman in the comp. Defenders go to water around him (look at how he got his goal against Freo).

If he's up and about and plays well he will create absolute bedlam in our forward line.

[SonofScray]

Josh Bruce is going to come from the clouds and tear this finals series apart.

[GVGjr]

Josh Bruce is going to come from the clouds and tear this finals series apart.

If he has a good game against the Saints it will go a long way towards a victory for us. He really needs to shop early against his old team and nail a goal or two

[GVGjr]

Does the challenge for Tim English get any bigger than against the Saints rucks of Ryder and Marshall?
The great part for English is he is coming off a great performance against Darcy and Lobb so he should be confident he can perform well

I think Comrade once said that after Bontempelli, English was the most talented of players on our list and a good performance by Tim will go a long way towards a win for us.

Projected line-up

Backs: Williams - Cordy - Gardner
HBack: Wood - Keath - Daniel
Centre: B.Smith - Macrae - Hunter
HFor: Crozier - Bruce - Johannisen
Forw: Wallis - Naughton - Liberatore
Rucks: English - Bontempelli - Dunkley
Int: Duryea - Richards - Lipinski - R.Smith
Emergencies: Sweet - Suckling - Lloyd - Dale

Will the inform tagger Jack Steele go to Bontempelli?
A lot might depend on how Carlisle and Howard perform against Bruce and Naughton

We might be starting as the underdog but I like our chances

[1eyedog]

Does the challenge for Tim English get any bigger than against the Saints rucks of Ryder and Marshall?
The great part for English is he is coming off a great performance against Darcy and Lobb so he should be confident he can perform well

I think Comrade once said that after Bontempelli, English was the most talented of players on our list and a good performance by Tim will go a long way towards a win for us.

Projected line-up

Backs: Williams - Cordy - Gardner
HBack: Wood - Keath - Daniel
Centre: B.Smith - Macrae - Hunter
HFor: Crozier - Bruce - Johannisen
Forw: Wallis - Naughton - Liberatore
Rucks: English - Bontempelli - Dunkley
Int: Duryea - Richards - Lipinski - R.Smith
Emergencies: Sweet - Suckling - Lloyd - Dale

Will the inform tagger Jack Steele go to Bontempelli?
A lot might depend on how Carlisle and Howard perform against Bruce and Naughton

We might be starting as the underdog but I like our chances

Ryder is a terrible match up for Tim because he can pretty much do to us what Tim can do to the Saints. I'm not sure how defensive Tim can be on him. I am worried about the ruck situation.

You don't think Laith will get up?

[Happy Days]

Ryder is a terrible match up for Tim because he can pretty much do to us what Tim can do to the Saints. I'm not sure how defensive Tim can be on him. I am worried about the ruck situation.

You don't think Laith will get up?

Ryder is also probably the second best tap ruckman in the game, which as we’ve all come to know and love as Tim’s glaring weakness. He’s not a guy you can just cede 40+ hitouts to because he will give his guys first and best use.

[GVGjr]

Ryder is a terrible match up for Tim because he can pretty much do to us what Tim can do to the Saints. I'm not sure how defensive Tim can be on him. I am worried about the ruck situation.

You don't think Laith will get up?

I hope Vandermeer is available but it's a slightly risky selection.

[ratsmac]

The last time we played the saints back in round 2 was a long time ago and English was still spooked from the belting he copped from Grundy. Since then he has played some best on ground performances a long with some ordinary games as well. His last month has been solid so he should come into the game with confidence. He just has to play his natural game which is pretty good and make Ryder/Marshall worry about him. Hopefully he can snag a couple of goals to keep them accountable. If Tim at least can break even in the ruck it will go a long way for us coming out on top in the end.

[WBFC4FFC]

Does not matter as much the match-up as it is as much what the Bullies bring.

Given the game-style, they MUST control the stoppages and contested ball to have any hope. Given we are a high-possession team, we are therefore susceptible to over-using it, especially when the pressure is on, given it is the Finals.

[mjp]

Given we are a high-possession team, we are therefore susceptible to over-using it, especially when the pressure is on, given it is the Finals.

We average 1-possession per player more than the Saints during 2020...when we played them in R2 they had MORE of the footy than us (336-319).

I keep hearing how this is an issue (high-possession Dogs vs low possession Saints) but based on 2020 numbers it just isn't true...

Lies and damned statistics I say...

[bornadog]

We average 1-possession per player more than the Saints during 2020...when we played them in R2 they had MORE of the footy than us (336-319).

I keep hearing how this is an issue (high-possession Dogs vs low possession Saints) but based on 2020 numbers it just isn't true...

Lies and damned statistics I say...

Need to break down the stats to first half of the season versus second half.

We are one of the better performed teams with Stoppages, clearances, contested poss in the second half than the first, which gives me confidence.

We also addressed our lack of defence after the Saints game and didn't leak as many goals in the second half of the season.

[dog town]

We average 1-possession per player more than the Saints during 2020...when we played them in R2 they had MORE of the footy than us (336-319).

I keep hearing how this is an issue (high-possession Dogs vs low possession Saints) but based on 2020 numbers it just isn't true...

Lies and damned statistics I say... Have to say that stats aside I’ve never thought our possession rate was an issue. Maybe in the odd game where conditions needed us to take territory but in general I’m very comfortable with it.

The last thing we can afford to do is blast the ball out of congestion, we need to use our numbers and get quality exits. The challenge for us is when to use numbers/take space once we are out but that’s the same for everyone and is influenced by what’s happening ahead of the ball.

[Bullies]

I think Vandermeer will play. We will be a little worried by Saints pace.

We get on top in the middle then we win. We can't let them dictate to us by holding onto the ball. We need to roll the dice and take them on but don't over use the ball.

Duryea being back has also settled our backline. He is the General down there.

[WBFC4FFC]

I think Vandermeer will play. We will be a little worried by Saints pace.

We get on top in the middle then we win. We can't let them dictate to us by holding onto the ball. We need to roll the dice and take them on but don't over use the ball.

Duryea being back has also settled our backline. He is the General down there.

Duryea has freed-up JJ, Crozier and Daniel. A critical component of the side, providing heaps of versatility for the side as a whole.

[comrade]

Duryea has freed-up JJ, Crozier and Daniel. A critical component of the side, providing heaps of versatility for the side as a whole.

JJ & Daniel have benefited, Crozier not so much. He's had a very quiet/ineffective last 4 weeks, IMO.

I don't believe Croz, Williams, Wood & Duryea all playing together provides us with balance in defence. Adding Cordy to the mix only makes it worse.

[Happy Days]

JJ & Daniel have benefited, Crozier not so much. He's had a very quiet/ineffective last 4 weeks, IMO.

I don't believe Croz, Williams, Wood & Duryea all playing together provides us with balance in defence. Adding Cordy to the mix only makes it worse.

Crozier's whole season has been kinda bad tbh.

[comrade]

Crozier's whole season has been kinda bad tbh.

First 10 or so matches were very good. Since the suspension he's had nowhere near the influence and adding another small defender (Doc) to the mix hasn't helped.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Crozier was excellent for most of the season but yeah since Dureya has returned it’s as though he’s playing a different role which he hasn’t quite adjusted to. Let’s hope he’s figured it out just in time

[whythelongface]

First 10 or so matches were very good. Since the suspension he's had nowhere near the influence and adding another small defender (Doc) to the mix hasn't helped.

Agree. Thought he has been excellent for the most part with form tapering off recently. Interested to hear why having other small defenders has affected his game.

[comrade]

Agree. Thought he has been excellent for the most part with form tapering off recently. Interested to hear why having other small defenders has affected his game.

Not sure why it has, but the logjam in defence seems to have stifled his ability to roam and intercept, prior to round 10 he had multiple games with 17+ possessions and since then he hasn't gotten more than 14. It's not the best indicator but in the first 10 matches he cracked 100 SC points 4 times and hasn't done it since round 10.

[Grantysghost]

Not sure why it has, but the logjam in defence seems to have stifled his ability to roam and intercept, prior to round 10 he had multiple games with 17+ possessions and since then he hasn't gotten more than 14. It's not the best indicator but in the first 10 matches he cracked 100 SC points 4 times and hasn't done it since round 10.

Could his role have changed slightly?

[Mitcha]

I also like the boy Vandemeer but am a bit concerned about him coming back in for a final after such a long layoff and with his hamstring issues since he has been with us. The last thing we need is another game where we are a soldier down before half time if the worst case scenario occured. Only the medical staff and the player will know if he is ready to go. I just hope the right call is made.

[Mofra]

Could his role have changed slightly?
We're playing 3 talls now instead of two, so no doubt it has.
He was traded in from Freo to be a forward. He did seem to find himself forward of the ball quite a bit against Freo.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I agree that Crozier's form has been off and he's been somewhat surplus to needs when we have Wood/Williams performing largely similar roles due in part to the return of Duryea.

He's obviously going to play but I hope we can find a way for Crozier to have an impact.

[The Pie Man]

We're playing 3 talls now instead of two, so no doubt it has.
He was traded in from Freo to be a forward. He did seem to find himself forward of the ball quite a bit against Freo.

Similar trajectory to Jeremy Howe in that respect.

[FrediKanoute]

MJP, hate to say it, but you were bang on. Exactly what you described were the saints strengths is exactly what they did to us for 3 quarters. Their run and ability to score from our forward line was incredible and we had no answers. If anything we played into their hands.

[anfo27]

How we win this game is to have a competitive ruckman! Ryder would have had the best 2 weeks sleep ever leading into this. Imagine how good our mids & particularly Bont would be if we had a good ruckman.

[bornadog]

How we win this game is to have a competitive ruckman! Ryder would have had the best 2 weeks sleep ever leading into this. Imagine how good our mids & particularly Bont would be if we had a good ruckman.

Yet they lost the clearances and Stoppages

[anfo27]

Yet they lost the clearances and Stoppages

Sometimes the stats don't tell you the true story. I rely on what i see. I saw a ruckman who seems allergic to physical contact at times. From the first few contests of the game Tim looked like he was already beaten. Thats what i saw & you obviously see it differently. How many times do we have to see the opposition ruckman get BOG before we question whether we are doing the best thing for the team having Tim in there?

[bornadog]

Sometimes the stats don't tell you the true story. I rely on what i see. I saw a ruckman who seems allergic to physical contact at times. From the first few contests of the game Tim looked like he was already beaten. Thats what i saw & you obviously see it differently. How many times do we have to see the opposition ruckman get BOG before we question whether we are doing the best thing for the team having Tim in there?

We didn't lose because of the rucks

[GVGjr]

Contrasting team set-up and structures but we could have easily won it.

Did we make error in playing two injured forwards?

[bornadog]

Did we make error in playing two injured forwards?

Wallis kicks those two misses and we wouldn't say that. Naughton didn't look confident. He needs to lead more and stop hanging around the defenders. He has alot to learn about forward play

[anfo27]

We didn't lose because of the rucks

Which player had the biggest impact on the ground? If its not Ryder then we are watching a different game. I'm not saying its your fault we lost Tim but geez if your direct opponent doesn't have such an enormous impact then we win in a canter.

[KT31]

Can we please just change the thread title to; “I @#$&ing hate St-Kilda and @#$&ing always will.

[Happy Days]

Congrats to St Kilda for their first finals win without a convicted rapist in their side since 1997.

[KT31]

Congrats to St Kilda for their first finals win without a convicted rapist in their side since 1997.

Well at least not any we know about.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Which player had the biggest impact on the ground? If its not Ryder then we are watching a different game. I'm not saying its your fault we lost Tim but geez if your direct opponent doesn't have such an enormous impact then we win in a canter.

I'm not sure modern footy is so binary.
Ryder was no doubt huge tonight....not sure he won them the game.
pretty sure I agree with Bevo that our inability to stop them from moving the ball from our forward line through their goal posts with rude regularity was a large problem.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm not sure modern footy is so binary.
Ryder was no doubt huge tonight....not sure he won them the game.
pretty sure I agree with Bevo that our inability to stop them from moving the ball from our forward line through their goal posts with rude regularity was a large problem.

Yep and multiple times it was a 12 point turnaround. We had them locked in yet they somehow escaped and then with ease transitioned into a vacant forward line. As disappointing as that is, it’s compounded by the fact that the saints love to play like that. It’s their style. And we let them do it for most of the night.

[anfo27]

I'm not sure modern footy is so binary.
Ryder was no doubt huge tonight....not sure he won them the game.
pretty sure I agree with Bevo that our inability to stop them from moving the ball from our forward line through their goal posts with rude regularity was a large problem.

Not saying that was our only issue. Clearly we have multiple issues to deal with over the summer but for me English plays with some presence, just a little then we win comfortably.

[azabob]

I really hate this match-up.

It just seems that the Saints are strong where we are weak...and their fast method of ball movement causes huge trouble for our zoning defence. Further to all that, they are at the very least 'solid' (Ruck + inside mids) where we are strong (inside mids) and, well...

Is anyone else just thinking 'Why couldn't it have been West Coast? Or Collingwood? Or even Richmond?"

Looking forward with dread. Hoping I am wrong (of course) but just not feeling it.

Did we lose the way you expected us to?

I expected to win and thought if we lost it would be because of Ryder / Marshall and their midfield and small forwards.

Not because their tall defenders and forwards would dominate all over the ground.

[Hotdog60]

We made Howard look good for the Saints

[Sedat]

We made Howard look good for the Saints
He is good and has been all season. Really we shouldn't have expected much more from Naughts and Bruce than what we got yesterday on Howard and Carlisle - they similarly struggled badly against May and Lever earlier in the season but we found a way through slick ball movement and being able to minimise clean clearances (helped that Gawn didn't play and Preuss did). We weren't able to stop this yesterday with Ryder and Marshall giving them so many good looks from the centre bounces, and in actual fact St Kilda did to us what we do to most teams with their coast to coast scoring chains from D50.

There is nothing worse than losing from what you know. We got the blueprint in R2 on how the Saints will approach this final. MJP neatly summarised it again in this thread. They certainly didn't throw in any curveballs at selection or in their match-ups. The fact that we knew what was coming and utterly failed to curb any of their weapons until it was almost too late was the most disappointing aspect of yesterday. Steele aside, our midfield is so far ahead of theirs it is not even a comparison. Yet they were able to get so much clean ball into their F50 as a direct result of the Ryder/Marshall combination. By contrast they were very proactive in curbing our strengths. Daniel was sat on to great effect (great credit to Daniel for orchestrating our comeback in a different position). Their rucks in tandem wore down English and then both got dangerous around the ground after they fatigued Tim and nullified his around the ground strength. Their key defenders locked on as did their mid sized defenders on the likes of Wallis. And they obliterated us in the air both ways - we were so poor in zoning off to rebound mark and we were even poorer in bringing the ball to ground inside F50 and also on the Saints down the line kicks. Bevo had a really poor match day IMO and I suspect deep down he knows it.

[mjp]

Did we lose the way you expected us to?



Can I say "kind of".

They kicked so many easy goals in transition - they won with minus 16 inside 50's for goodness sake - and just went forward in a rush and scored.

What I didn't expect was the way that Coffield in particular was able to so effectively intercept behind the ball. And the disappointing thing was that the MC identified this and moved to man-him-up, but did so without providing sufficient instruction...when you are playing versus an interceptor, you DO NOT LEAD. You stick your elbow in his back, and force him to compete in every contest...unfortunately the player assigned kept leading...which we kept ignoring...so the intercept player kept getting in the way.

I didn't enjoy the game at all. We had chances - and good pressure - but MISSED tackles deep inside our f50 area probably cost us the game...one versus Sinclair I remember as being particularly galling...this enabled them to maintain a 'point and click (kick)' d50 exit strategy which enabled them to hold the ball....they were losing the territory game but at the same time were pretty effective defending WHILST IN POSSESSION. It wasn't until they were really being overwhelmed in the last q that they had to go to a traditional 'kick it long and wide' exit strategy which enabled us to win the ball back with numbers and create some scores.

[Hotdog60]

So we should have tried something different but what. Its been a crappy season as far as players that are not selected because I doubt the scratch matches would be as full on.
In hind sight and I've mentioned this elsewhere Sweet could have lined up at full forward and helped Tim out and Arron could have gone to full back. But do you take that risk in an Elimination final in that if it comes off your a coaching genius and if it doesn't your an idiot for not going with your best players.
I watched Sweet in the pre season game he got and to be honest he wasn't that awful and games should have been put into him in the season.

[FrediKanoute]

There is nothing worse than losing from what you know. We got the blueprint in R2 on how the Saints will approach this final. MJP neatly summarised it again in this thread. They certainly didn't throw in any curveballs at selection or in their match-ups. The fact that we knew what was coming and utterly failed to curb any of their weapons until it was almost too late was the most disappointing aspect of yesterday. Steele aside, our midfield is so far ahead of theirs it is not even a comparison. Yet they were able to get so much clean ball into their F50 as a direct result of the Ryder/Marshall combination. By contrast they were very proactive in curbing our strengths. Daniel was sat on to great effect (great credit to Daniel for orchestrating our comeback in a different position). Their rucks in tandem wore down English and then both got dangerous around the ground after they fatigued Tim and nullified his around the ground strength. Their key defenders locked on as did their mid sized defenders on the likes of Wallis. And they obliterated us in the air both ways - we were so poor in zoning off to rebound mark and we were even poorer in bringing the ball to ground inside F50 and also on the Saints down the line kicks. Bevo had a really poor match day IMO and I suspect deep down he knows it.

and yet, we found ourselves in a position to win the game with 2 minutes to go.......for all the bad the Saints were incapable of putting us away. Why?

[Sedat]

and yet, we found ourselves in a position to win the game with 2 minutes to go.......for all the bad the Saints were incapable of putting us away. Why?
Just my personal opinion, because we are better than them and we were in better form than them over the past 6 weeks. I was concerned with all the aspects raised by MJP in this thread and also how they schooled us in R2 but I thought we would have brought much more intensity as we have promised to do since the debacle in last year's EF, and I also thought we would be far too strong for them in the midfield with Libba and Hunter in for us and Gresham out for them from R2. Unfortunately, they got the game more on their terms than we did on ours. Credit to their players and especially their coaching group.

I hope we use it as a proper learning experience and make the necessary adjustments to our game plan and squad, because we have too many elite players in or entering their prime to be constantly fallling short of the contenders like we did this year.

[bornadog]

I hope we use it as a proper learning experience and make the necessary adjustments to our game plan and squad, because we have too many elite players in or entering their prime to be constantly fallling short of the contenders like we did this year.

The issue really is our bottom six who were woeful throughout the year and it showed up in a final. On top of Bruce, Lippinski and Richards were very disappointing, Roarke was ok in patches. Throughout the year we have tried Gowers, Hayes, Lloyd, Dale as well and they are also ordinary.

We really need more contributors and stop relying on the A graders all the time.

[SonofScray]

and yet, we found ourselves in a position to win the game with 2 minutes to go.......for all the bad the Saints were incapable of putting us away. Why?

Talent.

[Danjul]

The issue really is our bottom six who were woeful throughout the year and it showed up in a final. On top of Bruce, Lippinski and Richards were very disappointing, Roarke was ok in patches. Throughout the year we have tried Gowers, Hayes, Lloyd, Dale as well and they are also ordinary.

We really need more contributors and stop relying on the A graders all the time.

Is Dunkley an A Grader? If so, what talents does he display that make him one?

And didn’t we negate all of them by playing him in the ruck in a recent game? He went from a 30 possessions player to 13.

Or in your terms , A grader to bottom six.

Our strategy, for a long time, has restricted the natural talent of some very good players.

That’s why being the first out of the finals is the best we can aspire to.

[bornadog]

Is Dunkley an A Grader? If so, what talents does he display that make him one?

And didn’t we negate all of them by playing him in the ruck in a recent game? He went from a 30 possessions player to 13.

Or in your terms , A grader to bottom six.

Our strategy, for a long time, has restricted the natural talent of some very good players.

That’s why being the first out of the finals is the best we can aspire to.

I don't know what you are talking about, I didn't mention Dunkley

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Just my personal opinion, because we are better than them and we were in better form than them over the past 6 weeks. I was concerned with all the aspects raised by MJP in this thread and also how they schooled us in R2 but I thought we would have brought much more intensity as we have promised to do since the debacle in last year's EF, and I also thought we would be far too strong for them in the midfield with Libba and Hunter in for us and Gresham out for them from R2. Unfortunately, they got the game more on their terms than we did on ours. Credit to their players and especially their coaching group.

I hope we use it as a proper learning experience and make the necessary adjustments to our game plan and squad, because we have too many elite players in or entering their prime to be constantly fallling short of the contenders like we did this year.

How much faith do you have in this teams ability to learn? It was supposed to be after the EF last year. Then after round 1. Then after round 2. Saturday’s game was then meant to be an opportunity to rectify both the EF final last year and round 2 this year. Yet we played almost identically to both those prior games. For all the talk, we sure as hell don’t look like a side who lets their playing so the talking.

[Danjul]

I don't know what you are talking about, I didn't mention Dunkley
No you didn’t. I was simply using your descriptions to point out that we are not always getting the best from the players who have the talent to carry the team higher.

No, worse than that. Decisions are made which prevent them from having maximum input. Dunkley was just one of numerous examples one could use.

I suspect Bruce’s performance is hampered by being told his role is to crash packs . How many times did we see him make a lead?

[Sedat]

How much faith do you have in this teams ability to learn? It was supposed to be after the EF last year. Then after round 1. Then after round 2. Saturday’s game was then meant to be an opportunity to rectify both the EF final last year and round 2 this year. Yet we played almost identically to both those prior games. For all the talk, we sure as hell don’t look like a side who lets their playing so the talking.
You're right but I am the eternal optimist. On exposed form we beat none of the 6 remaining finalists all season, so if we aren't going to win the flag in 2020 I want to make sure there are key learnings, forensic reviews and measurable improvements, both incrementally with the current list and externally via shrewd trades that make an instant and lasting difference.

If 2017 was an unscheduled gap year, 2018 was a reset and 2019/2020 was the start of the climb back up the ladder, we simply have to make the next step to top 4 and stay there. We can and we should be aiming for that in 2021

The concern for me is that Bevo has not had a better H&A finish than 6th in 2015, his first season in charge. That's a very long time ago and we need to aim for bettering that consistently in the next 4-5 years.

[AshMac]

[/B]

How much faith do you have in this teams ability to learn? It was supposed to be after the EF last year. Then after round 1. Then after round 2. Saturday’s game was then meant to be an opportunity to rectify both the EF final last year and round 2 this year. Yet we played almost identically to both those prior games. For all the talk, we sure as hell don’t look like a side who lets their playing so the talking.

Right now have zero faith we'll learn anything. As you say after each "lesson" we talk up how much we've learnt and then produce the same old shit the next time! It's actually pathetic and I won't hear one word about how much effort they put in and they can hold their heads up high (you aren't saying that). As a playing group we should be disgusted by yesterdays performance and never mention it as a close game. If we aren't well then we just don't want to win, and that's even worse than not learning anything.

[FrediKanoute]

Just my personal opinion, because we are better than them and we were in better form than them over the past 6 weeks. I was concerned with all the aspects raised by MJP in this thread and also how they schooled us in R2 but I thought we would have brought much more intensity as we have promised to do since the debacle in last year's EF, and I also thought we would be far too strong for them in the midfield with Libba and Hunter in for us and Gresham out for them from R2. Unfortunately, they got the game more on their terms than we did on ours. Credit to their players and especially their coaching group.

I hope we use it as a proper learning experience and make the necessary adjustments to our game plan and squad, because we have too many elite players in or entering their prime to be constantly fallling short of the contenders like we did this year.

I agree. To me what irks is that when it came down to it we missed critical goals at critical points which cost us. I'm disappointed and I think they need to hurt and learn from it, much like the 2015 team did.

[azabob]

The issue really is our bottom six who were woeful throughout the year and it showed up in a final. On top of Bruce, Lippinski and Richards were very disappointing, Roarke was ok in patches. Throughout the year we have tried Gowers, Hayes, Lloyd, Dale as well and they are also ordinary.

We really need more contributors and stop relying on the A graders all the time.

On the weekend I would also say for 3 quarters our majority of our A graders were nothing more than C Graders.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You're right but I am the eternal optimist. On exposed form we beat none of the 6 remaining finalists all season, so if we aren't going to win the flag in 2020 I want to make sure there are key learnings, forensic reviews and measurable improvements, both incrementally with the current list and externally via shrewd trades that make an instant and lasting difference.

If 2017 was an unscheduled gap year, 2018 was a reset and 2019/2020 was the start of the climb back up the ladder, we simply have to make the next step to top 4 and stay there. We can and we should be aiming for that in 2021

The concern for me is that Bevo has not had a better H&A finish than 6th in 2015, his first season in charge. That's a very long time ago and we need to aim for bettering that consistently in the next 4-5 years.

Yes I agree. And taking out 2016, we haven’t won a final since 2010.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

On the weekend I would also say for 3 quarters our majority of our A graders were nothing more than C Graders.

Yep. When we lose, it’s typically because our A graders are not pulling their weight. Or at least not enough of them.

[azabob]

Yes I agree. And taking out 2016, we haven’t won a final since 2010.

That is a very damming stat.

[1eyedog]

That is a very damming stat.

So we're 4/3 with a flag? Take that.

[jeemak]

That is a very damming stat.

Yeah, but we're also sitting with a 4-3 ledger and a premiership. Which I reckon a few other teams would take.

[comrade]

So we're 4/3 with a flag? Take that.

If we're going to rely on fairy tales to win a flag, we might well be waiting another 50 odd years.

[jeemak]

So we're 4/3 with a flag? Take that.

Beat me to it!

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I don't think anyone is implying we wouldn't take the flag. It's just an indication of how we have performed the last 10 years. I know taking out a premiership year is a bit nonsensical but if we do, consider the saints now have 2 more finals victories than us despite not having played finals for 8 years.

[jeemak]

Do they?

[comrade]

I don't think anyone is implying we wouldn't take the flag. It's just an indication of how we have performed the last 10 years. I know taking out a premiership year is a bit nonsensical but if we do, consider the saints now have 2 more finals victories than us despite not having played finals for 8 years.

I've gotta say, hearing 'yeah but 2016' any time our finals record over the past decade is raised is pretty tiresome.

Each post season campaign should be looked at as it's own entity. In the Bevo era, we have 1 extremely successful campaign and 3 abject failures.

[The bulldog tragician]

I've gotta say, hearing 'yeah but 2016' any time our finals record over the past decade is raised is pretty tiresome.

Each post season campaign should be looked at as it's own entity. In the Bevo era, we have 1 extremely successful campaign and 3 abject failures.

I don't think 2015 was an abject failure. A young team that hadn't played finals lost composure in the last few minutes after having played very well for most of that night. The things that were identified as to why we lost were instrumental in why we were a much better team the following year and I've always seen 2015 as part of that journey.

However the reverse is true in 2019-2020, where I feel the same issues were repeated and we didn't learn enough. We didn't get beaten up physically like in 2019 but I don't think we brought enough intensity on each occasion.

[comrade]

I don't think 2015 was an abject failure. A young team that hadn't played finals lost composure in the last few minutes after having played very well for most of that night. The things that were identified as to why we lost were instrumental in why we were a much better team the following year and I've always seen 2015 as part of that journey.

However the reverse is true in 2019-2020, where I feel the same issues were repeated and we didn't learn enough. We didn't get beaten up physically like in 2019 but I don't think we brought enough intensity on each occasion.

Let's compromise and just call it a failure then, rather than an abject failure.

So 1 successful finals campaign, 1 failure and 2 abject failures along with 2 seasons of non finals in 6 years at the helm.

I know, I know 'yeah but 2016' absolves Bevo for some, but 2016 feels a long time ago.

[Happy Days]

Let's compromise and just call it a failure then, rather than an abject failure.

So 1 successful finals campaign, 1 failure and 2 abject failures along with 2 seasons of non finals in 6 years at the helm.

I know, I know 'yeah but 2016' absolves Bevo for some, but 2016 feels a long time ago.

I don’t think its totally busted. For all of our faults, and there are many, we lost a final by under a goal. If it were being played under Stockton/Pride rules we probably win, and are into a matchup with an opponent that our weaknesses are (theoretically) much less exposed against.

If we get Goldstein (which we will), swap out Bruce for a pressure forward and see sustained improvement from our back six then there is so much to be excited about.

[comrade]

If we get Goldstein (which we will), swap out Bruce for a pressure forward and see sustained improvement from our back six then there is so much to be excited about.

Hehe.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Do they?

You're right they don't. Unless you consider their prelim victory over us in 2010. So their 2 finals wins in that span are against us. I knew there was a reason I hated them

[1eyedog]

If we're going to rely on fairy tales to win a flag, we might well be waiting another 50 odd years.

I'm not relying on another fairy tale for our next one but let's be realistic, the past decade has been one of the most successful eras, if not THE most successful era, for the club. Need to at least acknowledge that.

I don't think we need to rely on fairy tales though, we've been super competitive in the past and it's been a subject of much discourse over the past week (85; 92; 97; 08-10), we've had our chances and a few things go right and we'd have 4-5 trophies in the cabinet.

But I digress and agree with you, well past time to move on. My feeling is that with a few tweaks of the current list I fully expect us, actually I demand that, we start giving ourselves a genuine shot by finishing top 4 across the next few years. A far larger number of players will be topping 150 games and with the younger talent moving to 50-100 games we should be up to our eyeballs in it.

If we do not improve next year and beyond it's time for broad sweeps with the broom.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

2015 and 2016 were fantastic years under Bevo. But that shiny newness has long worn off. He's had time to sculpt this list to his liking so hearing him bemoan it was a little concerning. It's been spoken about here ad nauseum but the signings of Trengove, Bruce and Schache, particularly the latters recent extension, are bewildering considering 2 of them are essentially never played and the remainder is only a handful of games away from experiencing the same fate.

The things we saw on saturday were so predictable I'm astonished how we a) didn't see it coming and b) didn't react sooner. We all knew Caleb or JJ would be isolated by Geary. Ratten has done it every time. We knew the saints loved an empty forward line and to sling shot the ball out the back from defensive 50. We knew Coffield loved to roam free and intercept. Yet it wasn't until over halfway through the match we decided to do anything about it. That's a consistent pattern since 2016. Same old, same old. 4 bloody years! And now, after cutting out bad boys, we have too many meek and mild players who will never stand up to finals pressure footy. The list needs a rethink. The gameplan needs a rethink. I don't think we need any drastic changes. We just need changes.

[bornadog]

I'm not relying on another fairy tale for our next one but let's be realistic, the past decade has been one of the most successful eras, if not THE most successful era, for the club. Need to at least acknowledge that.

I don't think we need to rely on fairy tales though, we've been super competitive in the past and it's been a subject of much discourse over the past week (85; 92; 97; 08-10), we've had our chances and a few things go right and we'd have 4-5 trophies in the cabinet.

But I digress and agree with you, well past time to move on. My feeling is that with a few tweaks of the current list I fully expect us, actually I demand that, we start giving ourselves a genuine shot by finishing top 4 across the next few years. A far larger number of players will be topping 150 games and with the younger talent moving to 50-100 games we should be up to our eyeballs in it.

If we do not improve next year and beyond it's time for broad sweeps with the broom.

I agree Ieye, I mean how far back do we want to go to examine failures, that is what gets tiresome for me.

The only disappointment for me right now is we had a chance to win on Saturday and we stuffed our chances.

We have the nucleus of a group that will make top 4. Solve the Fullback role, and a small pressure forward and I think we are just about there. We won't solve all our needs coming into trading and drafting, but we will be close.

[soupman]

I'm not relying on another fairy tale for our next one but let's be realistic, the past decade has been one of the most successful eras, if not THE most successful era, for the club. Need to at least acknowledge that.


It is and it isn't. The Premiership saves all and makes the decade a success, but in the 9 years aside from that we have seen 3 finals campaigns and no finals wins. We have been bottom 6 as many times as top 8, and despite the Premiership have never finished higher than 6th. By no means has it been a bad decade but aside from an improbable Premiership (Not trying to discount it, just think it's the anomaly in this argument) it has been a pretty mediocre and disappointing decade.

Saying the decade has been one of the most successful ones for us is technically true, but it also sound like we have been a good side this decade with our bad finishes being the aberrations when the evidence would suggest we have been mediocre at best this decade with the Premiership being an aberration.



But I digress and agree with you, well past time to move on. My feeling is that with a few tweaks of the current list I fully expect us, actually I demand that, we start giving ourselves a genuine shot by finishing top 4 across the next few years. A far larger number of players will be topping 150 games and with the younger talent moving to 50-100 games we should be up to our eyeballs in it.


Wasn't that our attitude going into this year? And haven't we seen no step forward?

Wasn't that our attitude going into 2017? And we saw a big step backward?

I agree with you in most parts I think, I just think we are very forgiving by continually postponing the moment when we actually judge the team on our expectations.




If we do not improve next year and beyond it's time for broad sweeps with the broom.

I'm sure this was said at the end of last year, and 2017 for that matter.

And arguably we did sweep the broom post 2017, and it would appear we are yet to see any real benefit from that.

[Twodogs]

Every premiership is a fairytale by the very definition of the word.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It is and it isn't. The Premiership saves all and makes the decade a success, but in the 9 years aside from that we have seen 3 finals campaigns and no finals wins. We have been bottom 6 as many times as top 8, and despite the Premiership have never finished higher than 6th. By no means has it been a bad decade but aside from an improbable Premiership (Not trying to discount it, just think it's the anomaly in this argument) it has been a pretty mediocre and disappointing decade.

Saying the decade has been one of the most successful ones for us is technically true, but it also sound like we have been a good side this decade with our bad finishes being the aberrations when the evidence would suggest we have been mediocre at best this decade with the Premiership being an aberration.



Wasn't that our attitude going into this year? And haven't we seen no step forward?

Wasn't that our attitude going into 2017? And we saw a big step backward?

I agree with you in most parts I think, I just think we are very forgiving by continually postponing the moment when we actually judge the team on our expectations.



I'm sure this was said at the end of last year, and 2017 for that matter.

And arguably we did sweep the broom post 2017, and it would appear we are yet to see any real benefit from that.
Well said. It feels at the end of each season we're wanting to cut the list deep. Then everyone seems satisfied after each trade period but at the end of yet another season, we ask to cut deep again and think it'll solve all our problems. We need to stop blaming the bottom players and start focusing on where we are going wrong with recruiting/development. I feel our club is not very selfaware which I think means a review is in order. Of course, having made finals that won't happen.

[MrMahatma]

It feels at times like we want to set up a dynasty - wait for Tim to develop, wait for Jamara, how good will Bailey Smith be... etc... but I reckon we have enough talent NOW to do some aggressive trades and make top 4 NOW. Our nucleus isn’t getting any younger, and we need them. We won’t get another Bont for a while, but we just need be honest about the diff between us and the top teams.

Getting a good 2-3 years out of a mature ruck or full back would serve us really well right now.

[WBFC4FFC]

It feels at times like we want to set up a dynasty - wait for Tim to develop, wait for Jamara, how good will Bailey Smith be... etc... but I reckon we have enough talent NOW to do some aggressive trades and make top 4 NOW. Our nucleus isn’t getting any younger, and we need them. We won’t get another Bont for a while, but we just need be honest about the diff between us and the top teams.

Getting a good 2-3 years out of a mature ruck or full back would serve us really well right now.

Hawks with Lake is an example of what you are referring to.