The Moment: Elimination Final, 2020 vs St Kilda

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The moment, the best, most courageous moment that caught your eye in this afternoon's Elimination final against St Kilda. Was it the moment that told you 'we've got this' or 'we lost this one right here'? Or was it the moment that you went 'wow....that is crazy courage

[GVGjr]

Bump

[comrade]

Kicking it straight to Coffield 4 times in 3 minutes in the last.

[chef]

Wally missing in the last. Hes been so reliable this season so when that missed that was my moment.

[whythelongface]

Bazza and Hunter’s misses in the 3rd. Bazza gets it and we are within one point. Hunter gets it and we are 17 points down. Big big misses in the context of the game.

[Sedat]

Ryder outmarking English both in D50 and F50 within a few minutes in the 3rd qtr. It deflated the group and left far too much to do in the last qtr.

[FrediKanoute]

Bazza and Hunter’s misses in the 3rd. Bazza gets it and we are within one point. Hunter gets it and we are 17 points down. Big big misses in the context of the game.

This was it for me. Clawing back 4 goals in the last quarter of a final is a phenomenal effort We ran all over them. If we have to only claw back 2 goals then the game would have been ours. Its been a bugbear all season, but missing set shots from 20 to 30 out is unforgiveable.

[Happy Days]

English not burying the Saints defender into the turf in the 4th. He kills that guy and its HTB and a set shot, instead it's a goal going the other way.

[bornadog]

English not burying the Saints defender into the turf in the 4th. He kills that guy and its HTB and a set shot, instead it's a goal going the other way.

But it was holding the ball, the umpire just let it go. It was a disgraceful decision.

[anfo27]

English trailing Ryder by 2 metres at the boundry throw in in the last quarter. Easy tap out to saints mid & easy F50 entry for the saints only goal in the last.
For me English was my biggest concern leading in & the way he played was why I was concerned. How do we fix this? He is the biggest problem on our list & we have no back up!

[angelopetraglia]

The ball bouncing and sitting up nicely for Membrey to handball to a running player for another open goal against the trend of play in the last quarter. That was it. Game done.

All the momentum for one solitary goal. Then from nowhere they get a goal. Kills you.

[Sedat]

But it was holding the ball, the umpire just let it go. It was a disgraceful decision.

Sorry BAD, it just wasn't holding the ball. Steele was tackled and got rid of it with a kick. Umpires give players ample opportunity to correctly dispose of it and Steele did. English could have and should have demolished Steele in that tackle. For mine that piece of play is indicative of his mindset as a player - lacks that uncompromising killer instinct. The big question is can that be taught in a player?

[josie]

English trailing Ryder by 2 metres at the boundry throw in in the last quarter. Easy tap out to saints mid & easy F50 entry for the saints only goal in the last.
For me English was my biggest concern leading in & the way he played was why I was concerned. How do we fix this? He is the biggest problem on our list & we have no back up!

Yep-same for me. I said to hubby that’s it then as soon as Saints took it away so easily.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Sorry BAD, it just wasn't holding the ball. Steele was tackled and got rid of it with a kick. Umpires give players ample opportunity to correctly dispose of it and Steele did. English could have and should have demolished Steele in that tackle. For mine that piece of play is indicative of his mindset as a player - lacks that uncompromising killer instinct. The big question is can that be taught in a player?

Can you imagine if that was Picken, Morris or Clay tackling from 2016? They'd still be digging Steele out of the ground.

Now not everyone can exude their intensity, but when you're 200cms+ and you have the chance to bury an opposition mid, well, you'd better take it.

[Happy Days]

But it was holding the ball, the umpire just let it go. It was a disgraceful decision.

BAD I love you but it wasn't. English had a moment and didn't execute.

[Eastdog]

A few moments:

- The free against Bruce right at the end.

- Wally’s miss in the last.

- Bailey Smith and Lachie Hunter missing in the 3rd quarter.

[SonofScray]

Roarke Smith over cooked one early in the game which would have put us 2 goals up and applied scoreboard pressure early on and reflected the effort we'd invested. It wasn't an easy shot, but it was a moment that would have set the tone I believe. They swung up the other end and scored instead.

[macca]

The last 2 mins of the second quarter:
Macro on 50 m fwd , handballs to Lipinski and he gets tackled down . Just stupid , macrae should have a go at kicking a goal
Ball gets rebound and saints goal. We did not offer any pressure to keep it in the forward line ... sigh...

Wallace’s miss in the last few moments . So crucial

Then the start of the 3 rd , Bailey smith misses 30 m out on a slight angle. Saints stream ahead to a 21 point lead in the pasty 10 mins of the 3rd. We just keep getting in these situations of catch up footy .

We need to nail these opportunities

Losing Cordy was hard , as saints have 3 pretty good big men , Marshall , Ryder And king which we could not cover all. I think I am missing one more

[merantau]

For me it was Baz's miss. I was absolutely 100% sure he was going to kick that goal. And it would have made it two in quick succession from memory. Momentum. It's an above the shoulders thing. Kick the goal. Everyone lifts. Miss and it's hard to get it out of the collective head.
After that miss I knew we were done. The comeback was just bearable because I'd set myself up mentally for defeat.. Thank dog we weren't leading all game and went down by three points! I could not possibly handle that. My therapist has me booked in for 9am tomorrow morning. I hope to have my normal optimism restored by Round 1, 2021.

[AshMac]

English not burying the Saints defender into the turf in the 4th. He kills that guy and its HTB and a set shot, instead it's a goal going the other way.

This. Got me off the couch, let rip at the TV. That was the epitome of the intensity we brought to the game. He needed to be driven 9ft underground.

[SonofScray]

The Moment came after the game for me. Bevo lamenting the 3rd man up rule.

That's pathetic.

[azabob]

The Moment came after the game for me. Bevo lamenting the 3rd man up rule.

That's pathetic.

He also shot down the suggestion of changing our ruck set up and suggested if we bring in another ruckman English will leave.

[Danjul]

He also shot down the suggestion of changing our ruck set up and suggested if we bring in another ruckman English will leave.
Sounds like English is unhappy doing what is best for the team, or the coach is being dictated to by players.

Either way it’s a sad admission.

[G-Mo77]

The Moment came after the game for me. Bevo lamenting the 3rd man up rule.

That's pathetic.

Yep. 2017 called Bevo the rules aren't going to change no matter how many unconvenetial lineups you throw out there. Wake the *!*!*!*! up and move with the times.

[GVGjr]

Sounds like English is unhappy doing what is best for the team, or the coach is being dictated to by players.

Either way it’s a sad admission.

I think that is a bit of a long bow to draw, more likely is that Bevo believes we are more focused on finding a way to support English more than replacing him

[anfo27]

I think that is a bit of a long bow to draw, more likely is that Bevo believes we are more focused on finding a way to support English more than replacing him

How can we go into a season where a clear weakness in Tim's ruckwork has no back up or support?

[GVGjr]

How can we go into a season where a clear weakness in Tim's ruckwork has no back up or support?

I find it puzzling but it's how I interpreted his comments. I can't see us setting up like Port or the Saints unless we draft or trade for a hybrid forward/ruckman and he just commands a FP spot. It's Bruce and Naughton as key forwards because we need more pressure forwards than adding a 3rd tall. Ugle-Hagan could be that 3rd tall next season but it's unlikely to be someone who has a legitimate claim on being a ruckman

[anfo27]

I find it puzzling but it's how I interpreted his comments. I can't see us setting up like Port or the Saints unless we draft or trade for a hybrid forward/ruckman and he just commands a FP spot. It's Bruce and Naughton as key forwards because we need more pressure forwards than adding a 3rd tall. Ugle-Hagan could be that 3rd tall next season but it's unlikely to be someone who has a legitimate claim on being a ruckman

Does this concern you?

The Bont is coming into his prime & imo we can sit around & wait for Tim to be the player we want him to be when there is a chance he won't. We need to give Bont the best support crew we can, however we can.

[Danjul]

I think that is a bit of a long bow to draw, more likely is that Bevo believes we are more focused on finding a way to support English more than replacing him
The comment I responded to said English will leave if the current ruck situation is changed.

But it doesn’t matter, everyone is happy with how the ruck has been going for the last few years. We have seen a lot of creative ideas there. Gives the supporters something to talk about.

[GVGjr]

Does this concern you?

The Bont is coming into his prime & imo we can sit around & wait for Tim to be the player we want him to be when there is a chance he won't. We need to give Bont the best support crew we can, however we can.

Yes, but I think that is the way it's going to play out. He's very invested in this approach and I think it's how it will play out
Now unless something special happens and we just find someone that commands a senior spot his comments last night indicate it's Bruce and Co supporting Tim not bringing in a player to challenge or replace him

[GVGjr]

The comment I responded to said English will leave if the current ruck situation is changed.

But it doesn’t matter, everyone is happy with how the ruck has been going for the last few years. We have seen a lot of creative ideas there. Gives the supporters something to talk about.

I don't think you are on your Robinson Crusoe with our ruck position, we should be finding someone else. I just think some of us believe it's not a priority for Bevo and it's unlikely to change. He was quick to quote some figures last night to support his position.
Lets just say he's invested in this approach and accept that we need to find something creative to support English

By the way, I do enjoy debating it with our forum members

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Considering the opposition, the moment may have been last years trade period. Imagine the difference Ryder, Butler and Howard would have made for us considering our needs. Keath was a great get for us but you have to wonder, given our needs, how we missed these guys.

Oh and to add, if Bruce was still a saint we might’ve won.

[anfo27]

Yes, but I think that is the way it's going to play out. He's very invested in this approach and I think it's how it will play out
Now unless something special happens and we just find someone that commands a senior spot his comments last night indicate it's Bruce and Co supporting Tim not bringing in a player to challenge or replace him

I agree thats just how it is but i just don't accept it. I know Bevo will stick to his guns on this & many of us here will be debating this for a long time to come. Can you teach intensity & physicality?

[GVGjr]

I agree thats just how it is but i just don't accept it. I know Bevo will stick to his guns on this & many of us here will be debating this for a long time to come. Can you teach intensity & physicality?

I think you can certainly improve it but making sure the players know there will be consequences if the agreed standards slip

[Danjul]

Yes, but I think that is the way it's going to play out. He's very invested in this approach and I think it's how it will play out
Now unless something special happens and we just find someone that commands a senior spot his comments last night indicate it's Bruce and Co supporting Tim not bringing in a player to challenge or replace him
I have not seen Bruce giving any support in the ruck. That’s a clear misuse of the word ‘support ‘.

Just like all the others, it has taken away from his reason for existing.

I realise there’s a new football paradigm for the Dogs and we have become desensitised by the failures, but the football teams that establish a successful dynasty use ruckmen to hit the ball directly to a midfielder and a forward to kick goals. Bruce has done neither.

He has obviously been told that he is selected to crash the packs, which he is the only thing he is doing, Look at Noughton’s mark late in the game. Who did he outmark? Yes, Bruce. It’s part of the reason Naughton had 2 touches to three quarter time.

And a significant part of why we lost.

[Bulldog4life]

The moment for me was Bevo's presser. He said round one next year "there will probably be 6 changes to the team" that played against St.Kilda. Big statement.

[G-Mo77]

The moment for me was Bevo's presser. He said round one next year "there will probably be 6 changes to the team" that played against St.Kilda. Big statement.

I don't think it is. There was probably 5 changes to the team from the 2019 EF team to the team in Round 1 2020.

[The Adelaide Connection]

The moment for me was Bevo's presser. He said round one next year "there will probably be 6 changes to the team" that played against St.Kilda. Big statement.

I think that sounds more provocative than it is. 6 might be slight hyperbole, but with another preseason you would expect:

-Weightman, West, Garcia, L Young x2 would be pushing for spots.

-Add in the injured LDM and McLean (and maybe Schache)

-JUH and Raak/other draftees may get a debut

-Potentially a player or two traded in

The hard part is to take 6 out (and obviously depends on the draft/trades).

[The bulldog tragician]

The moment for me was Bevo's presser. He said round one next year "there will probably be 6 changes to the team" that played against St.Kilda. Big statement.
That is interesting, especially given that among the players who didn’t play yesterday we have Dickson (retired), Suckling (injured a lot, ageing, and not brilliant when he did appear), Trengove, Schache and Young who were consistently overlooked by the match committee, and players like Hayes, La Young and Porter whose abilities are limited and haven’t really shown much. Much though we love the Lin Jong story, he must be on thin ice. Toby McLean won’t play next season. So what does this talk of six less actually mean?

[GVGjr]

I think that sounds more provocative than it is. 6 might be slight hyperbole, but with another preseason you would expect:

-Weightman, West, Garcia, L Young x2 would be pushing for spots.

-Add in the injured LDM and McLean (and maybe Schache)

-JUH and Raak/other draftees may get a debut

-Potentially a player or two traded in

The hard part is to take 6 out (and obviously depends on the draft/trades).

I think you have nailed it TAC

We will revamp the forward line and Garcia, Weightman and West will fight it our for 2 forward spots. Vandermeer is an almost automatic inclusion
There will likely be a trade for someone like O'Halloran and one other and who knows if Ugle-Hagan will be ready for round one

6 sounds like a significant change but when you go through some of the scenario's it may not be

[bornadog]

I think you have nailed it TAC

We will revamp the forward line and Garcia, Weightman and West will fight it our for 2 forward spots. Vandermeer is an almost automatic inclusion
There will likely be a trade for someone like O'Halloran and one other and who knows if Ugle-Hagan will be ready for round one

6 sounds like a significant change but when you go through some of the scenario's it may not be

According to inside the club, we are also looking at another Key defender.

[Ozza]

The moment was probably several moments where English got brushed aside at boundary throw ins and St Kilda got easy clearances. I actually think English does ok enough in the middle, it is the boundary throw ins where decent rucks just man handle him, and he is ALWAYS behind at the throw ins, so if they drop short he is no chance.

It was absolutely the difference in the game. Bailey Smith's missed chance probably the most costly of the misses for me, that gets us within a point and in the game. Wally's miss, well - we kicked one within about 90 seconds, so might not be a huge difference, and he at least kicked one from the boundary earlier. Hunter's miss we were looking gone, and he at least kicked the next/harder chance. I know we want to kick ALL of them, but the saints missed a couple of sitters too.

Most nauseating moment would be Bruce grabbing his jumper after kicking the first goal.....when he absolutely shouldn't have played on and its a minor miracle it floated through.

[bornadog]

its a minor miracle it floated through.

Really???, you need to watch that again

[Scorlibo]

The moment was probably several moments where English got brushed aside at boundary throw ins and St Kilda got easy clearances. I actually think English does ok enough in the middle, it is the boundary throw ins where decent rucks just man handle him, and he is ALWAYS behind at the throw ins, so if they drop short he is no chance.


It was clearly part of St Kilda's plan to move the ball along the boundary and be satisfied in the knowledge that in a boundary throw-in situation English would be particularly exposed.

I'm still a bit salty, like Bevo, that the AFL sought to undo a couple of the big strengths of our 2016 side. Was anyone actually concerned at the time about the prevalence of third man up in the ruck? Every time I see a free kick given as a result of no nominated ruck I put my head in my hands and lose a bit of faith in the game. Such a nuisance.

Soon enough we'll be nominating for marking contests :rolleyes:

[bornadog]

It was clearly part of St Kilda's plan to move the ball along the boundary and be satisfied in the knowledge that in a boundary throw-in situation English would be particularly exposed.

I'm still a bit salty, like Bevo, that the AFL sought to undo a couple of the big strengths of our 2016 side. Was anyone actually concerned at the time about the prevalence of third man up in the ruck? Every time I see a free kick given as a result of no nominated ruck I put my head in my hands and lose a bit of faith in the game. Such a nuisance.

Soon enough we'll be nominating for marking contests :rolleyes:

That gifted goal for ruck nomination in the second quarter was an absolute joke - in a 3 point game, it is significant.

I really hate the administrators of the AFL.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It was clearly part of St Kilda's plan to move the ball along the boundary and be satisfied in the knowledge that in a boundary throw-in situation English would be particularly exposed.

I'm still a bit salty, like Bevo, that the AFL sought to undo a couple of the big strengths of our 2016 side. Was anyone actually concerned at the time about the prevalence of third man up in the ruck? Every time I see a free kick given as a result of no nominated ruck I put my head in my hands and lose a bit of faith in the game. Such a nuisance.

Soon enough we'll be nominating for marking contests :rolleyes:

The nomination makes sense because you can't have a situation where a ruckman is blocked from going for the ruck contest.

You're right though. What is stupid is the getting rid of 3rd man up. Clears congestion. Quickens the game up with less stoppages and the ball tapped into free play. I don't ever remember a concern about it. What rationale was there to get rid of it? I was on too much of a high post premiership to take notice.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

That gifted goal for ruck nomination in the second quarter was an absolute joke - in a 3 point game, it is significant.

I really hate the administrators of the AFL.

Not only that, but that advantage call was horrendous. Every player had stopped after the whistle. They probably kick a goal regardless but still.

[Mitcha]

That gifted goal for ruck nomination in the second quarter was an absolute joke - in a 3 point game, it is significant.

I really hate the administrators of the AFL.
Hmmm reminds me of another gifted goal to the captain of the German diving team in a prelim against this mob not so long ago.

[Sedat]

If we cannot adjust to a rule change after 3 years of it being implemented, then we are in more trouble than we thought. To bring that up in the presser on Saturday wasn't Bevo's finest hour.

[bornadog]

If we cannot adjust to a rule change after 3 years of it being implemented, then we are in more trouble than we thought. To bring that up in the presser on Saturday wasn't Bevo's finest hour.

I am glad he brought it up, because it was another stupid call from the AFL who continue to meddle with one of the best games in the world. Someone has to stick it to them.

[Sedat]

I am glad he brought it up, because it was another stupid call from the AFL who continue to meddle with one of the best games in the world. Someone has to stick it to them.
I'm not. It is a crap rule but every team has had 4 seasons now to adjust to it. Complete and utter waste of time bringing up yet again in the presser on the weekend.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm not. It is a crap rule but every team has had 4 seasons now to adjust to it. Complete and utter waste of time bringing up yet again in the presser on the weekend.

It wasn't a great reflection on Bevo. And it was compounded by what has been spoken about on here this season regarding not having seen changes in our approach to a variety of things since that rule was implemented.

[bornadog]

I'm not. It is a crap rule but every team has had 4 seasons now to adjust to it. Complete and utter waste of time bringing up yet again in the presser on the weekend.

I didn't see the press conference but no doubt he was answering a question. When a ridiculous thing like nominating who goes up in the ruck is one of the things that effects the result, of course you comment on it.

[bornadog]

It wasn't a great reflection on Bevo. And it was compounded by what has been spoken about on here this season regarding not having seen changes in our approach to a variety of things since that rule was implemented.

Why can't he comment on something that effected the game?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

BAD, you cut Bevo far too much slack.

Is it a crap rule? Absolutely, but why is he still banging on about it 4 years later when EVERY other club has moved on? You might say he should call it out (which he did at the time of them changing it), but when it's 4 seasons later and you haven't adjusted to the rule but continue to complain, it reflects the image of a stubborn individual who refuses to change with the times.

[azabob]

I didn't see the press conference but no doubt he was answering a question. When a ridiculous thing like nominating who goes up in the ruck is one of the things that effects the result, of course you comment on it.

You should watch it so you understand the context. It was complete sour grapes and woe is me

He was asked are we going to look at our ruck strategy and he basically said

*he doesn't want to bring in a number one ruck and inferred that our current number one ruck will look to leave
*we will continue doing what we are doing
*If the AFL wants to bring back the third man up rule that will help.

[bornadog]

BAD, you cut Bevo far too much slack.

Is it a crap rule? Absolutely, but why is he still banging on about it 4 years later when EVERY other club has moved on? You might say he should call it out (which he did at the time of them changing it), but when it's 4 seasons later and you haven't adjusted to the rule but continue to complain, it reflects the image of a stubborn individual who refuses to change with the times.

My god you guys just want to jump on his back - that is how it feels anyway. Did you actually listen to the press conference.

Bevo was asked a question about the ruck and with a smirk he said a one liner "could always bring back 3rd man up". It was a nothing comment and a light hearted joke.

My posts above have nothing to do with 3rd man up, I was talking about the crap decision to nominate for the ruck where Keath and Bont had a mis communication and gifted them a goal.

[bornadog]

You should watch it so you understand the context. It was complete sour grapes and woe is me

He was asked are we going to look at our ruck strategy and he basically said

*he doesn't want to bring in a number one ruck and inferred that our current number one ruck will look to leave
*we will continue doing what we are doing
*If the AFL wants to bring back the third man up rule that will help.

Yeah a nothing comment, why make a big deal of it?

PS: BS on sour grapes.

[jeemak]

I thought the moment where JJ was incapable of marking the centred ball to get us away, or at least keep it in front of him and moving just prior to quarter time was a big moment.

A fully switched on or committed to the contest player wouldn't have done that and it kind of reflected our attention to detail.

[Rocket Science]

I didn't see the press conference but no doubt he was answering a question. When a ridiculous thing like nominating who goes up in the ruck is one of the things that effects the result, of course you comment on it.

He was answering a question, about how we can provide better support for English.

Quipping "bring back third man up" concedes our first choice ruck needs the help of another teammate to contest ruck taps ... with strong 'sending your young, string bean ruckman into the meat grinder to own league HQ' vibes.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Why can't he comment on something that effected the game?

Never said he couldn't.

But we don't want to sit and complain about a rule that has been in place for 4 years. We'll get nowhere with that attitude and our prior 4 years correlate to that. I don't like the abolishment of the 3rd man up either, but under the current rules, nominating rucks is vital. Otherwise players could simply block the ruckman from contesting the ruck contest. It was a free kick and poor communication on our part. We need to start focusing on what we can control and not worry about things outside of it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You should watch it so you understand the context. It was complete sour grapes and woe is me

He was asked are we going to look at our ruck strategy and he basically said

*he doesn't want to bring in a number one ruck and inferred that our current number one ruck will look to leave
*we will continue doing what we are doing
*If the AFL wants to bring back the third man up rule that will help.
What exactly did he say to infer this? If that's English's attitude then it's disappointing.

[bornadog]

Never said he couldn't.

But we don't want to sit and complain about a rule that has been in place for 4 years. We'll get nowhere with that attitude and our prior 4 years correlate to that. I don't like the abolishment of the 3rd man up either, but under the current rules, nominating rucks is vital. Otherwise players could simply block the ruckman from contesting the ruck contest. It was a free kick and poor communication on our part. We need to start focusing on what we can control and not worry about things outside of it.

Obviously you haven't listened to the press conference. There was no complaint.

I am done with this topic

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Obviously you haven't listened to the press conference. There was no complaint.

I am done with this topic

There's certainly more than one way to complain. Anyway, I never said Bevo complained. But there is plenty of complaining on here about the rule.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

There's certainly more than one way to complain. Anyway, I never said Bevo complained. But there is plenty of complaining on here about the rule.

Speaking of rules, did the AFL ever announce they would go back to interpreting holding the ball the way they did prior to Clarksons whinge? Because ever since the end of the Gillan's circus of footy, it's gone back to what it used to be and even moreso since the finals started. What a joke.

[The Doctor]

This final was lost the moment we didn't land Ryder in the trade period last year.

We needed a ruckman. He would have been excellent support for English. He would have been a great mentor for Jamarra. He was relatively cheap. It was all too good to be true but we missed out. Well done Saints.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

This final was lost the moment we didn't land Ryder in the trade period last year.

We needed a ruckman. He would have been excellent support for English. He would have been a great mentor for Jamarra. He was relatively cheap. It was all too good to be true but we missed out. Well done Saints.

Couldn't agree more. I said the same thing in this thread. The moment was last seasons trade period. Right now we're crying out for a ruck, a small forward with pace and a key defender. The saints got all of Ryder, Butler and Howard very cheaply. Well played to them.

[comrade]

Couldn't agree more. I said the same thing in this thread. The moment was last seasons trade period. Right now we're crying out for a ruck, a small forward with pace and a key defender. The saints got all of Ryder, Butler and Howard very cheaply. Well played to them.

You look at the Saints at the sort of impact their traded in players have had: Steele, Ryder, Butler, Jones, Carlisle, Howard, even Hannebury was influential.

Then you look at ours: Keath has been great so far, Crozier has been a definite win and Duryea is solid, but beyond that you have Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Lloyd & Suckling that are all chewing up decent salary and this year have given us absolutely nothing.

Our trading has been a complete failure since 2016 and is probably a big factor as to why we're treading water.

[Scorlibo]

The nomination makes sense because you can't have a situation where a ruckman is blocked from going for the ruck contest.

You're right though. What is stupid is the getting rid of 3rd man up. Clears congestion. Quickens the game up with less stoppages and the ball tapped into free play. I don't ever remember a concern about it. What rationale was there to get rid of it? I was on too much of a high post premiership to take notice.

Yes I don't remember taking much notice either. Aside from basking in 2016's warm glow, at the time the Roughead-Boyd partnership was working nicely and we had no reason to believe the rule would be game-changing for us.


Never said he couldn't.

But we don't want to sit and complain about a rule that has been in place for 4 years. We'll get nowhere with that attitude and our prior 4 years correlate to that. I don't like the abolishment of the 3rd man up either, but under the current rules, nominating rucks is vital. Otherwise players could simply block the ruckman from contesting the ruck contest. It was a free kick and poor communication on our part. We need to start focusing on what we can control and not worry about things outside of it.

I don't entirely agree with you regarding Bevo's press conference. Without getting forensic, I didn't interpret his comments to be so much a complaint as a statement of fact in response to questions. He talked about the ruck role being so niche as to prohibit young rucks developing at the level, which I think is an interesting point, albeit something that's always been true (perhaps exacerbated by removing the third man up - hence the remark). The other impact of it being a niche role is that proven ruckmen are tightly held.


I thought the moment where JJ was incapable of marking the centred ball to get us away, or at least keep it in front of him and moving just prior to quarter time was a big moment.

A fully switched on or committed to the contest player wouldn't have done that and it kind of reflected our attention to detail.

I agree jeemak, that was a big moment that could have resulted in a goal for us if not for JJ's fumble.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You look at the Saints at the sort of impact their traded in players have had: Steele, Ryder, Butler, Jones, Carlisle, Howard, even Hannebury was influential.

Then you look at ours: Keath has been great so far, Crozier has been a definite win and Duryea is solid, but beyond that you have Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Lloyd & Suckling that are all chewing up decent salary and this year have given us absolutely nothing.

Our trading has been a complete failure since 2016 and is probably a big factor as to why we're treading water.

I think it’s even more disappointing because we all thought after our flag, with such a young list, that we were on our way to a dynasty with the ability to attract good players from other clubs. We either won’t or can’t do that. Keath was a great get but apart from that we haven’t landed a gun.

[bornadog]

You look at the Saints at the sort of impact their traded in players have had: Steele, Ryder, Butler, Jones, Carlisle, Howard, even Hannebury was influential.

Then you look at ours: Keath has been great so far, Crozier has been a definite win and Duryea is solid, but beyond that you have Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Lloyd & Suckling that are all chewing up decent salary and this year have given us absolutely nothing.

Our trading has been a complete failure since 2016 and is probably a big factor as to why we're treading water.

LLoyd was leading goal kicker last year with 38 goals, and Suckling has been excellent up to this year where he has had continual issues with injuries.

[comrade]

LLoyd was leading goal kicker last year with 38 goals, and Suckling has been excellent up to this year where he has had continual issues with injuries.

As I said, both gave us nothing this year.

And Suckling hasn’t been excellent. He’s been a solid role player at best when injury hasn’t been an issue.

Trying to build an argument for our trading record using Lloyd and Suckling is akin to building a house on very shaky ground.

[soupman]

Yeah i think Suckling has been a win for us. His 2016 was seriously impressive, especially the first half. After that we have seen a consistent decline from him but he has still played important roles at both ends of the ground. Mid 2019 onwards though has been pretty poor and i think we lose nothing if we cut him, but overall his recruitment should be considered a success.

[Danjul]

You look at the Saints at the sort of impact their traded in players have had: Steele, Ryder, Butler, Jones, Carlisle, Howard, even Hannebury was influential.

Then you look at ours: Keath has been great so far, Crozier has been a definite win and Duryea is solid, but beyond that you have Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Lloyd & Suckling that are all chewing up decent salary and this year have given us absolutely nothing.

Our trading has been a complete failure since 2016 and is probably a big factor as to why we're treading water.

In 2019 the Dogs were smashed by Carlton, who were in a 25 game stint at the bottom of the ladder. Who wasn’t selected for the Dogs that week? Trengove and Schache. Who was in the team when the Dogs had their most successful winning streak in 4 seasons later in the year ? Trengove and Schache.

I think those trades were good. Lloyd proved his worth. The malaise does not stem from a lack of available talent.

[comrade]

In 2019 the Dogs were smashed by Carlton, who were in a 25 game stint at the bottom of the ladder. Who wasn’t selected for the Dogs that week? Trengove and Schache. Who was in the team when the Dogs had their most successful winning streak in 4 seasons later in the year ? Trengove and Schache.

I think those trades were good. Lloyd proved his worth. The malaise does not stem from a lack of available talent.

If the coaching group doesn’t select the players traded in, does it not make the trading strategy a failure.

[Danjul]

If the coaching group doesn’t select the players traded in, does it not make the trading strategy a failure.
The trading strategy can be brilliant and the coaching group can be a failure.

Look at drafting Williams. I couldn’t believe how talented he was when he started playing. He was getting over 20 possessions every week, and obviously going to be a star. Think of a Richards x2. Then couldn’t get a game.

Look at Young. His 1st ten game stats are double Gardner’s in every category. He can’t get a game.

Talent and getting a game at the Dogs are not mutually exclusive, quite.

Looking at our recent record, if you were outside the club would you be interested in playing there?

I’m more concerned about keeping the talent we have, because if the last 4 seasons are any indication some will see an incentive to leave.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

The trading strategy can be brilliant and the coaching group can be a failure.

Look at drafting Williams. I couldn’t believe how talented he was when he started playing. He was getting over 20 possessions every week, and obviously going to be a star. Think of a Richards x2. Then couldn’t get a game.

Look at Young. His 1st ten game stats are double Gardner’s in every category. He can’t get a game.

Talent and getting a game at the Dogs are not mutually exclusive, quite.

Looking at our recent record, if you were outside the club would you be interested in playing there?

I’m more concerned about keeping the talent we have, because if the last 4 seasons are any indication some will see an incentive to leave.

Hmmm. You raise a point. Even Lloyd and Gowers has great first years with us. Although their form at other clubs wasn’t fantastic.

[Danjul]

Hmmm. You raise a point. Even Lloyd and Gowers has great first years with us. Although their form at other clubs wasn’t fantastic.
You raise a good point too.

In 2018 Gowers was our leading goal kicker. He was the most reliable thing about the team in a season that was pure garbage. I think we languished in the bottom 4 all year. But he kicked goals in almost every game.

Then he comes out in 2019 and his instructions were obviously to ‘crash the pack ‘. What use was he? None. Who’s been given that role in 2020? Bruce. What use is he? None.

The more I think about it the more certain I am that our trajectory is not necessarily upwards. Falling into 1 final is a bonus.
The thrashings by lowly teams is now in our DNA. Talent is irrelevant, that’s easily discarded.

[AshMac]

According to inside the club, we are also looking at another Key defender.

Thank god for that

[MrMahatma]

Re: Bevo’s presser, I didn’t pick up that he suggested Tim would leave. My take on his comment was he didn’t see the point bringing someone in who wants to leave cause they aren’t getting enough opportunities in the ruck, only to have them as our 2nd ruck.

So English is our #1 ruck and at best we’ll get support... but it prevents the Dunkley/Bruce rucking rather than much else.

Also, Bevo said something about our fwd line being a man down every week. He said it twice. What was he on about there?

[josie]

Yeah I thought that was weird too Mr M, especially as we were overstocked with CHB’s. Was it recognition of not have a pressure small forward? Cannot believe it was a kind of swipe at Bruce seeing as Bevo decided to play him every week despite Bruce struggling.

[bornadog]

Trying to build an argument for our trading record using Lloyd and Suckling is akin to building a house on very shaky ground.

Did i say that? Show me where?

I was pointing out the two players that have done well from your list.

[Scorlibo]

Also, Bevo said something about our fwd line being a man down every week. He said it twice. What was he on about there?

A man down by choice is what he meant, I believe. We choose to play five forward of the ball rather than six, to enable an extra mid/defender so I think he said something like 'usually they make up the numbers with their endeavour'.

[jeemak]

A man down by choice is what he meant, I believe. We choose to play five forward of the ball rather than six, to enable an extra mid/defender so I think he said something like 'usually they make up the numbers with their endeavour'.

Correct. We play seven either mid or back.

[1eyedog]

You look at the Saints at the sort of impact their traded in players have had: Steele, Ryder, Butler, Jones, Carlisle, Howard, even Hannebury was influential.

Then you look at ours: Keath has been great so far, Crozier has been a definite win and Duryea is solid, but beyond that you have Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Lloyd & Suckling that are all chewing up decent salary and this year have given us absolutely nothing.

Our trading has been a complete failure since 2016 and is probably a big factor as to why we're treading water.

It's not like we haven't tried: Hurley, Jack Martin, Isaac Smith, Wingard.

[comrade]

It's not like we haven't tried: Hurley, Jack Martin, Isaac Smith, Wingard.

Tried and failed.

[comrade]

I was pointing out the two players that have done well from your list.

Why?

[azabob]

A man down by choice is what he meant, I believe. We choose to play five forward of the ball rather than six, to enable an extra mid/defender so I think he said something like 'usually they make up the numbers with their endeavour'.


Correct. We play seven either mid or back.

From what I can gather we love to have 7 back and at stoppages roll a defender to try and out number the opposition at the contest.

This is a choice, is it game plan driven or personal driven?

If for example Naughton goes back would we need 7 in defense? Or can we trust the back 6 and play with 6 in the forward line and a player in the forward line such as Vandemeer roll up to the midfield stoppage to create that extra number if we want?

[Topdog]

I'm still too angry to comment properly other than to say our tackling was disgraceful for the entire match.

Stats will have us down as something like 50 tackles but lucky if 10 of them stuck.

We only started in the last qtr.

[SonofScray]

Watched the replay. I thought initially our effort was up, but you are correct. The tackling was really substandard. So many times they managed to get rid of the footy.
I'm still too angry to comment properly other than to say our tackling was disgraceful for the entire match.

Stats will have us down as something like 50 tackles but lucky if 10 of them stuck.

We only started in the last qtr.

[comrade]

Watched the replay. I thought initially our effort was up, but you are correct. The tackling was really substandard. So many times they managed to get rid of the footy.

I can’t find the motivation. What else stood out on second viewing?

[Rocco Jones]

Watched the replay. I thought initially our effort was up, but you are correct. The tackling was really substandard. So many times they managed to get rid of the footy.

Tackling is a funny one. I think we did great pressuring to get to the point of tackling but our actual tackles were very poor. Really missed out on a few opportunities when it was inside 50. I think it was less about effort and more about skill execution.

[jeemak]

Tackling is a funny one. I think we did great pressuring to get to the point of tackling but our actual tackles were very poor. Really missed out on a few opportunities when it was inside 50. I think it was less about effort and more about skill execution.

Yeah, didn't seem committed to stay the course in the tackle and kill it.

[hujsh]

Watched the replay. I thought initially our effort was up, but you are correct. The tackling was really substandard. So many times they managed to get rid of the footy.

The tackling really bugged me all day. They ALWAYS got a handball out in the direction of a team mate. We could not effectively hold them up.

[bornadog]

The tackling really bugged me all day. They ALWAYS got a handball out in the direction of a team mate. We could not effectively hold them up.

Also HTB rule out the door, didn't help

[DOG GOD]

Our tackling is laughable, and for every tackle we stick, we can’t hold another 5. Very few of our players tackle by grabbing an arm. It’s all around the waist, allowing the opposition to handball away. It’s frustrating to watch. And it’s been like this for many years. We seriously need a tackling coach, one that brings borderline aggression.

[SquirrelGrip]

Our tackling is laughable, and for every tackle we stick, we can’t hold another 5. Very few of our players tackle by grabbing an arm. It’s all around the waist, allowing the opposition to handball away. It’s frustrating to watch. And it’s been like this for many years. We seriously need a tackling coach, one that brings borderline aggression.

We missed Toby McLean at the end of the year. His tackling technique has improved out of sight.

[Topdog]

Also HTB rule out the door, didn't help

Works both ways that one. Our tackling was just absolutely pathetic.

[Ozza]

Really???, you need to watch that again

A mongrelly non-preferred snap under pressure....rather than Wallis straight in front from 20....it was low percentage at best.

[Ozza]

Re: Bevo’s presser, I didn’t pick up that he suggested Tim would leave. My take on his comment was he didn’t see the point bringing someone in who wants to leave cause they aren’t getting enough opportunities in the ruck, only to have them as our 2nd ruck.

So English is our #1 ruck and at best we’ll get support... but it prevents the Dunkley/Bruce rucking rather than much else.

Also, Bevo said something about our fwd line being a man down every week. He said it twice. What was he on about there?

Yes, that is definitely what he meant. I'm not sure how anyone could hear any different.

[jeemak]

Yes, that is definitely what he meant. I'm not sure how anyone could hear any different.

People are feeling the burn pretty hard. Many haven't watched the presser with a clear head from what's been said around here.

And that's actually fair enough.

[Jeanette54]

Our tackling is laughable, and for every tackle we stick, we can’t hold another 5. Very few of our players tackle by grabbing an arm. It’s all around the waist, allowing the opposition to handball away. It’s frustrating to watch. And it’s been like this for many years. We seriously need a tackling coach, one that brings borderline aggression.

It might be frowned upon these days, but I remember EJ talking about tackling to hurt. He said, and I am paraphrasing here, something along the lines of I hate to see a player tackle someone without throwing him to the ground. Player x did it to player Y quite legally in some final, and he broke his collar bone. I wonder how Ted would view the dangerous tackle rules these days.