What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

[GVGjr]

What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws? (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-finals-2020-western-bulldogs-problems-analysis-loss-to-st-kilda-elimination-final-list-build-josh-bruce-recruits-trade-targets/news-story/4cafd9adc7669714cfbdd2ebb65b43d6)

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/ecf2738d38731f4db6fd6f005602d184?width=700

GOLD COAST — The day after the Western Bulldogs clinched a drought-breaking premiership in 2016, defender Dale Morris delivered a bold statement.

“This is just the start for this young group,” Morris told reporters at Whitten Oval.

“Anything is possible. We’ve got some really good young talented players and some not so bad older guys too, so anything is possible.”

He was right. The finals run in 2016 was the definition of ‘anything is possible.’

The remarkable run to a second Dogs premiership was meant to be a launching pad: A springboard to more success. Marcus Bontempelli, Lachie Hunter, Jack Macrae, Caleb Daniel, Tom Liberatore and Jason Johannisen finished in the top 10 of the club’s Charles Sutton Medal in 2016. You could argue all six are the same - if not better - players than they were then.

But in the four years since the Dogs shocked the football world – and Sydney – at the MCG, something has been amiss.

The following year they finished 10th and in 2018 came 13th.

The last two seasons have been better, but almost more frustrating at the same time for Dogs fans. On the surface, finishing seventh in consecutive years is a positive, but losing elimination finals suggests they remain off the pace.

he incredible flag four years ago has given Luke Beveridge and co some cushioning, but how long can the club position itself as ‘up and coming’ for?

On the weekend the Dogs were the youngest and the least experienced team. Across the season, they were the fifth youngest and 12th most experienced.

Clearly, there is merit to the ‘we are young’ messaging. And winning premierships is hard. But the Dogs’ journey since 2016 has been curious at best.

Should we expect more from them after 2016? Or should we appreciate that something magical took place that has no rhyme, reason or chance of being replicated?

KICKING GOALS

Without naming names, Luke Beveridge was relatively critical of his forwards after Saturday night’s defeat to St Kilda.

“We had a handful of guys who were not at their best and we can’t afford that with the vulnerabilities we have in our side,” the coach said.

He added shortly after: “I also think that our forwards didn’t get ourselves into the right spot and didn’t compete well enough in the air. It hurt us.”

According to Champion Data, the Dogs had 26 multiple goalkickers in 2020, better than just Sydney (25) and Adelaide (21).

Josh Bruce booted six majors against North Melbourne, but from his 16 other games, the key forward and big name recruit managed just eight goals.

That’s 0.5 goals per game for most of the season for a player signed to a four-year deal. Speaking on Fox Footy’s The First Crack, Leigh Montagna – a former teammate of Bruce – conceded 2020 has been “a fail” for the left-footer. But he also suggested the Dogs recreate him as a defender, which is the position he played in his early days at St Kilda.

The Dogs scored from just 28 per cent of their inside 50s directed towards Bruce this year, the worst of the AFL’s top 15 targets.

But to blame Bruce for all the Dogs’ problems would be far too simplistic. Beveridge said the delivery on Saturday night was poor, while Aaron Naughton and Mitch Wallis managed just two majors between them.

n the stands was Josh Schache, who managed two senior games in 2020. Last November, he was handed a two-year extension that will see him remain at the Dogs until the end of 2022.

With Bruce tied in for another three years and Schache locked in for a further two, Beveridge and list manager Sam Power have some critical decisions to make on the look of their forward line in 2021.

They will secure a potential star in Jamarra Ugle-Hagan via the club’s next generation academy in December’s draft, but he is unlikely to offer an immediate solution.

“Some of the areas that we got touched up in tonight were because we didn’t have the role players to really see it through at different times throughout the course of the night,” a frustrated Beveridge said.

“Our boys will learn a lesson or two, but we’ll still be looking at what the possibilities are and whether there’s an acquisition in trade that would really help us and give us some depth as well as put some pressure on for spots and performance.

“We won’t be idle.”

TIM TIME

Beveridge lamented his team’s tall players compared to St Kilda’s. He rattled off the names of Rowan Marshall, Paddy Ryder, Max King and co, before agreeing Tim English is still a few years away from his best football.

He also made a half-serious plea for the AFL to reintroduce the third man up rule to help ease the burden on English, and explained how list cuts will further complicate key decisions around big men.

“They are at their full capacity as far as our height goes, our boys,” he said with a wry smile.

“I think it is (too simplistic to say we just need more tall players). Tim is progressing but a few years off his absolute best. You bide your time and you put the time into your players, support them and hope you can win games like this and continue on. Sometimes reality sets in which it did tonight.”

On Sunday morning, Essendon great Matthew Lloyd urged the Dogs to chase wantaway Melbourne ruckman Braydon Preuss.

“They have to hunt a ruckman. He has no idea how to defend,” Lloyd said on Channel 9’s Sunday Footy Show.

“He’s young but he is being exposed. They were never going to go deep with Tim English as their ruckman. I know Braydon Preuss is on the market for a team like the Giants.

“They have to be just as aggressive targeting a ruck in the trade period as well.”

The problem is, ready-made rucks don’t grow on trees. And more and more it appears clubs are waiting on other organisations to develop big men and then trying to poach them when they are ripe for the picking.

THE DEFENCE

They successfully wooed Alex Keath in last year’s trade period, but most pundits believe they need to attract another big bodied defensive player to assist the ex-Crow Easton Wood and Bailey Williams.

Max King clunked four contested marks in the first half alone on Saturday. In a tight game, his two goals proved critical.

It’s not as if there are many players who can outmark King at full stretch, but the Dogs look to have a problem dealing with height.

Williams was the AFL’s most improved player – according to Champion Data – during the home and away season, while Caleb Daniel was named in the All-Australian team.

The Dogs allowed the most points of any of the finalists in the 2020 season, finishing 10th in the AFL.

THE MIDFIELD

This is where the Dogs usually excel. With names such as Bontempelli, Liberatore, Hunter, Smith and prolific left-footer Macrae, it’s not hard to see why.

They flick the ball around like Barcelona did with Xavi, Messi and Iniesta. It’s handball happy, but generally worked from Rounds 3-18.

From a game plan perspective, it will be interesting to see how Beveridge tinkers in the summer. He’s free-thinking, free-spirited and not afraid to be different.

This is perhaps his greatest challenge. Reinventing a list and developing a strategy that will finish in the top four.

SO, WHERE TO NEXT FOR THE DOGS?

Some clubs publish strategic plans and sing their values from the rooftop. That’s not the Dogs style. They have a private document that spans 2019-2022. It covers community, facilities, AFLW and the men’s program.

It states a broad ambition to bring fans along for the journey, which they’ve done well since Beveridge arrived, adding almost 15,000 paid up fans since 2014.

Pay close attention to the Dogs this trade period. Beveridge was as pointed as he could be on Saturday night without revealing the club’s plans. Reading between the lines, they’d like another forward (Maybe Luke Bruest?) and some ruck help for Tim English.

“Improvement and development isn’t linear,” Beveridge said.

“Off the back of last year we would have liked to have had a much better start… There has been significant growth in our year… I’m encouraged by it. We are enthusiastic about our future with our group.”

[Bulldog Revolution]

It asks some reasonable questions

We’ve been, and we were a bit disappointing

We should be giving ourselves a better shot at it - our bigs have under delivered

[macca]

Tall Defender:
How well would a Carlisle or Hurley fit into our team ? Is there much more they can offer ?

Midifelder: Fiorini is on the market it seems, another big body mid.
We need Jong to get his body right and put some resiliency into it so he does not get injured. Maybe a bit of luck as well to stay injury free.

Fwd: I can see us chase Breust to fill in the Dickson role. Not sure how much that affects the development of Cavarra or Weightman.

I hate to say this, but After yesterday's game, you can see Bruce's limitations as a footballer


Honestly, what has Preuss shown that he is AFL standard ?

Please get a kicking coach, and teach them to kick under scenario and fatigue.

[bornadog]

What we need to do is an analysis of how we get to the next level. No more Mr nice guy Bevo with loyalty to players, have some balls and delist the players that are just not going to make it, then trade, recruit in players to fill the roles we need.

[Happy Days]

I really think of all the flaws only the ruck is fatal at the moment. Goldstein doesn't want to leave North, but maybe we can make North want to part with Goldstein.

Bevo has got to change his slant on what it would mean for English not to be the only ruck in the side. I was zoom watching the game with a buddy and he said that English is a really unique case in that he's clearly a gun footballer being forced to do the absolute only thing he isn't able to do on field over and over again. Someone joked about making Fev a defender in another thread but that's almost what we're doing with Tim.

He's proven that he can dominate ruck work against lesser ruckmen, and he can do just about anything else that the game will ask of him. Why are we so resistant to put him in the position where that would be his whole game?

[1eyedog]

I don't think Bevo is the type of guy to bring in a Goldy or Pruess now and admit to getting it wrong between 2017-2020.

[comrade]

I don't think Bevo is the type of guy to bring in a Goldy or Pruess now and admit to getting it wrong between 2017-2020.

https://i.ibb.co/3sRjRJz/4hc09i.jpg (https://ibb.co/vBXTXtY)

[bornadog]

I really think of all the flaws only the ruck is fatal at the moment. Goldstein doesn't want to leave North, but maybe we can make North want to part with Goldstein.

Bevo has got to change his slant on what it would mean for English not to be the only ruck in the side. I was zoom watching the game with a buddy and he said that English is a really unique case in that he's clearly a gun footballer being forced to do the absolute only thing he isn't able to do on field over and over again. Someone joked about making Fev a defender in another thread but that's almost what we're doing with Tim.

He's proven that he can dominate ruck work against lesser ruckmen, and he can do just about anything else that the game will ask of him. Why are we so resistant to put him in the position where that would be his whole game?

I still don't think the ruck is our major issue - second ruck yes.

We need another Key backman who can compete with the 200cm forwards, and we need a small forward who can apply pressure and kick 30 goals.

I would love a pacy mid to add to the current mids, but this is not easy either.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What we need to do is an analysis of how we get to the next level. No more Mr nice guy Bevo with loyalty to players, have some balls and delist the players that are just not going to make it, then trade, recruit in players to fill the roles we need.

Yeah I think it's well overdue to cut hard. Even guys like Lipinski who have AFL quality abilities but lack a hard edge. I'm sick of players like that. I'd prefer to take a punt on someone with a bit of mongrel to get a better mix. Unfortunately for us, guys with mongrel typically lack skill and we need all the skill we can get.

How many mids/wings do we have that could slot a goal running from 45m out? I mean Dunks, Macrae and Hunter would barely make the distance. These guys can't kick the footy yet at the same time lack a hardened edge. Don't get me wrong, these players don't avoid physical contact like say Lipinski. They put their head over the ball as well as anyone. But they're also not the intense, physically dominating players that would make the opposition think twice. And it's this that we need. Guys like Picken, Clay Smith, Libba etc

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Just on the biff. Did anyone see the only bit of footage where we got stuck into the saints. I only saw it happen once and it was none other than Libba. He needs support desperately.

[The Pie Man]

I still don't think the ruck is our major issue - second ruck yes.

We need another Key backman who can compete with the 200cm forwards, and we need a small forward who can apply pressure and kick 30 goals.

I would love a pacy mid to add to the current mids, but this is not easy either.

I do - we've got a potentially great 2nd ruck forward on our list. Tim English.

Either we fast-track Sweet , trade one in, or we'll continue to be frustrated and not reach the group's potential.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I still don't think the ruck is our major issue - second ruck yes.

We need another Key backman who can compete with the 200cm forwards, and we need a small forward who can apply pressure and kick 30 goals.

I would love a pacy mid to add to the current mids, but this is not easy either.

So we have Trengrove that could Ruck. Tim to FF. Then Bruce or Naughton go back to sure up the defence. The biggest issue I see is inside F50. We get entries but lack hardness and forward craft. I Toby Green type is the answer. The ruck could work with the three above or if English puts on 20kg. With the weight he will loose his impact around the ground

[1eyedog]

I do - we've got a potentially great 2nd ruck forward on our list. Tim English.

Either we fast-track Sweet , trade one in, or we'll continue to be frustrated and not reach the group's potential.

I do too. Bevo has been too tech noir with our ruck and i feel we need to take a more traditional approach.

[SonofScray]

Adjust the ruck situation by bringing in a guy ready to go as a bullocking, Hudson/Minson type. Trengove could have been this for us, I believe. Why not remains a mystery.


Play Schache. Stop worrying about he is not and look at what he is.

Get some dynamic runners into the forward line.

Play a defensive mid, more often.

Allow more space within the planning for match day to go after the opposition and mess with their stuff more often. Not purely just put ours up against theirs all the time.

[jeemak]

Adjust the ruck situation by bringing in a guy ready to go as a bullocking, Hudson/Minson type. Trengove could have been this for us, I believe. Why not remains a mystery.


Play Schache. Stop worrying about he is not and look at what he is.

Get some dynamic runners into the forward line.

Play a defensive mid, more often.

Allow more space within the planning for match day to go after the opposition and mess with their stuff more often. Not purely just put ours up against theirs all the time.

Good post/ questions.

Trengove - It's not a mystery, the coach/ MC don't think he can run and on exposed form this year - albeit minor - he can't.

Schache - Agreed. I get the principle of keeping him out until he hardens but some players only harden through top level experience, and agreeing with you again, he can actually do good things a lot of the time. I think he needs to get a lot bigger/ stronger, he's not Hipwood so there's no excuse for him being so slight. It's time for Josh to put the hours in and build his body up to ensure he has confidence in contests, and can influence them. He's too light on for someone who has been in the system for as long as he has and only he can change that.

Dynamic runners - Vander was a revelation this year, but aside from him the pantry is filled with hearty and chunky casserole and soup combinations, we need some two minute noodles

Defencive mids - given our ruck situation many of our mids would say they've been defencive all year. But your point is well taken. Toby in the role was someone a few of us called out as capable early on and before his injury he proved he could play it. Jong if retained can, and we'll be better for it because he can also mark and hit the scoreboard. Aside from those two I don't see where it's coming from unless West can take a step up in fitness and at over 180cm can offer material assistance.

Planning - tough call. Without having gone to games two years in a row (last year in Hanoi) I just don't have any idea what we look like holistically anymore. I've been relying on game day commentary and here, and could very well do without having to worry about the former if truth be told. My view is we're pretty cooked personnel wise in key areas and as a result it seems we're able to be exposed in more ways than one and throughout games it's fingers in the dyke stuff. I reckon if we improve our personnel our game day flexibility improves and the moves will flow

[Danjul]

Time to start dealing in facts.

If you cannot get more than a game and a half out of Schache in a season you have failed.

If you can’t get more than 1 game out of Lewis Young you have failed.

That the Dogs need 50 inside 50 for 10 goals when Naughton, Wallis, Bruce etc are there is also a bit of a head scratcher.

Back in 2013? Minson was getting 800 hitouts a season. He didn’t need a third man up. Since then the number has dropped steadily to about half of that, so dramatically that the mids struggle to contain far less talented opposition.

I am not concerned about bringing in players from other clubs, I suspect that we are only getting 75% from the playing group we have.

Dropping names like Max King is a distraction. He had 6 or 7 possessions in that loss. How we structured made him influential.

Talking about vulnerabilities in the side is just goobly gook to distract the audience. We gave Bruce a game as a key forward when he had not kicked a goal in over a month. Our team selection is based upon vulnerabilities.

look at what worked well in the last half of 2019. Did we see any attempt at recapturing it in 2020. No.

All the focus on being hard at the ball is simply an admission that when we have the ball we are not skilful enough to keep it.

Lets develop skills in who we have got, there’s already a lot of talent there.

[GVGjr]

Good post Danjul
We have a talented list and have been failing to a certain extent with developing players over the last 2 or 3 seasons
The only concern is that if Schache and Young can only get a total of 3 games for the season then we need to make an honest assessment if they fit our plans going forward or if it's time to move them on.
Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them

This would essentially require admitting fault, which I can't really see happening.

I think the chances of both being on the list next year are extremely unlikely, the chances of one are more likely but it would take a complete 180 for one or both to suddenly become a regular player.

Whilst Schache and Young have to assume a level of responsibility, I would expect they won't be afforded the same lenicy as others (i.e. Bruce, probably Gardner).

More likely I see a scenario of us trading in a KPD and playing them & playing JUH.

[Danjul]

Good post Danjul
We have a talented list and have been failing to a certain extent with developing players over the last 2 or 3 seasons
The only concern is that if Schache and Young can only get a total of 3 games for the season then we need to make an honest assessment if they fit our plans going forward or if it's time to move them on.
Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them
I think we need to change the plans. They have not worked in years.

As evidence:

Carlton destroyed the Dogs early in 2019. Yet they hadn’t won a game for a long time. They did it again in 2020 when the Dogs supposedly had a stronger team.

St Kilda has finished the season below the Dogs for 6? Years. Last year they humiliated the Dogs and did it again this year. Then in the final they were more than 4 goals ahead at 3/4 time.

If teams residing lower on the ladder can consistently worry a talented group there is a fault in the game plan.

Bringing in players from from other teams hasn’t worked because they cannot adjust to our game plan. In fact we have exported more successful players than are being proposed. We want a hard working small forward- get Dahl back. Want a full back - get Roughy back.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think we need to change the plans. They have not worked in years.

As evidence:

Carlton destroyed the Dogs early in 2019. Yet they hadn’t won a game for a long time. They did it again in 2020 when the Dogs supposedly had a stronger team.

St Kilda has finished the season below the Dogs for 6? Years. Last year they humiliated the Dogs and did it again this year. Then in the final they were more than 4 goals ahead at 3/4 time.

If teams residing lower on the ladder can consistently worry a talented group there is a fault in the game plan.

Bringing in players from from other teams hasn’t worked because they cannot adjust to our game plan. In fact we have exported more successful players than are being proposed. We want a hard working small forward- get Dahl back. Want a full back - get Roughy back.

I agree with what you're saying but I would never have Dal back. He can barely kick from 30m out and for his price is not worth it. Roughy, well yeah we mucked that up.

I've mentioned this before but what irritates me in terms of recruiting is we are sitting here lamenting our lack of small forward, full back and ruck. Last year the team that just knocked us out of the finals went and got Butler, Howard and Ryder all fairly cheaply. We got the wrong type of small forward in Llyod, no ruck and the wrong type of backmen in Keath. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we got Keath. But his strengths were always his intercepting ability. Not his 1v1 work.

Then you think Bevo hates playeres who can't move. So bye-bye Roughead. But then we recruited Trengove. And we don't play him. We recruit Bruce when we've got Schache and Naughton, knowing JUH is coming. This was with an eye to have a 3 pronged forward lineup but we never once saw it. And who is surprised? Bevo hates tall lineups. But then why recruit Bruce and extend Schache? We recruit a small marking forward in Lloyd which we have loads of, instead of a natural pacey crumber which we have none of. Then we've got loads of flankers. Quite frankly I don't see what we're trying to do as decisions made during trade period are not implemented the following season.

It might be a slow process to fill all our holes. But the saints filled 3 of them in 1 trade period. I'm not sure why we are struggling and if it's overrating the abilities of our list or thinking our gameplan doesn't require certain positions or not identifying the talent out there? Who knows but we've got work to do.

[comrade]

It might be a slow process to fill all our holes. But the saints filled 3 of them in 1 trade period. I'm not sure why we are struggling and if it's overrating the abilities of our list or thinking our gameplan doesn't require certain positions or not identifying the talent out there? Who knows but we've got work to do.

I sent a mate a message that if we had Saints off season last year of Howard, Ryder and Butler we'd have probably made top 4 and be set for next year and beyond. Ryder would have been a great mentor for both English AND JUH.

They completely nailed it last year. Made our trading over the past 4 years look like child's play.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I sent a mate a message that if we had Saints off season last year of Howard, Ryder and Butler we'd have probably made top 4 and be set for next year and beyond. Ryder would have been a great mentor for both English AND JUH.

They completely nailed it last year. Made our trading over the past 4 years look like child's play.

We'd probably have played Howard as a forward/ruck, Butler as a HBF and Ryder would have spent his days playing scratch matches and we'd have received no updates on him.

[SonofScray]

When I get a chance, I'd like to see our goalkicking lists, by season contrasted against some year by year averages for inside 50 and differentials.

[Grantysghost]

I agree with what you're saying but I would never have Dal back. He can barely kick from 30m out and for his price is not worth it. Roughy, well yeah we mucked that up.

I've mentioned this before but what irritates me in terms of recruiting is we are sitting here lamenting our lack of small forward, full back and ruck. Last year the team that just knocked us out of the finals went and got Butler, Howard and Ryder all fairly cheaply. We got the wrong type of small forward in Llyod, no ruck and the wrong type of backmen in Keath. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we got Keath. But his strengths were always his intercepting ability. Not his 1v1 work.

Then you think Bevo hates playeres who can't move. So bye-bye Roughead. But then we recruited Trengove. And we don't play him. We recruit Bruce when we've got Schache and Naughton, knowing JUH is coming. This was with an eye to have a 3 pronged forward lineup but we never once saw it. And who is surprised? Bevo hates tall lineups. But then why recruit Bruce and extend Schache? We recruit a small marking forward in Lloyd which we have loads of, instead of a natural pacey crumber which we have none of. Then we've got loads of flankers. Quite frankly I don't see what we're trying to do as decisions made during trade period are not implemented the following season.

It might be a slow process to fill all our holes. But the saints filled 3 of them in 1 trade period. I'm not sure why we are struggling and if it's overrating the abilities of our list or thinking our gameplan doesn't require certain positions or not identifying the talent out there? Who knows but we've got work to do.

Is it partly beggars can't be choosers in terms of trades for us? For some reason I feel we still appear an unattractive proposition to players from other teams.
Saints clearly sold their vision really well to those guys.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Is it partly beggars can't be choosers in terms of trades for us? For some reason I feel we still appear an unattractive proposition to players from other teams.
Saints clearly sold their vision really well to those guys.

Perhaps. But you'd think only the big names. Butler, Howard and Ryder were hardly sought after. I think we were never in their ears.

[bornadog]

Good post Danjul
We have a talented list and have been failing to a certain extent with developing players over the last 2 or 3 seasons
The only concern is that if Schache and Young can only get a total of 3 games for the season then we need to make an honest assessment if they fit our plans going forward or if it's time to move them on.
Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them

With no VFL this year it was was hard to consider any players let alone develop them. Schache missed half the season with injuries.

[Happy Days]

I sent a mate a message that if we had Saints off season last year of Howard, Ryder and Butler we'd have probably made top 4 and be set for next year and beyond. Ryder would have been a great mentor for both English AND JUH.

They completely nailed it last year. Made our trading over the past 4 years look like child's play.

Have you seen the trade they did for Dougal and Ryder? 12 and 18 for Ryder, Howard and 10. That's mental value in hindsight so well done to them.

I believe at the time I said I was confused by and didn't realy rate the moves individually, but really hoped they worked because it might change the generally conservative list management approach adopted by all clubs. Well here we are, having seen it undisputedly work (regardless of how far they go in the finals, going from very realy bad to pretty good has to be tick), and sort of change the dynamic on the ruck position. We should look at it and learn, as should most of the other clubs.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Have you seen the trade they did for Dougal and Ryder? 12 and 18 for Ryder, Howard and 10. That's mental value in hindsight so well done to them.

I believe at the time I said I was confused by and didn't realy rate the moves individually, but really hoped they worked because it might change the generally conservative list management approach adopted by all clubs. Well here we are, having seen it undisputedly work (regardless of how far they go in the finals, going from very realy bad to pretty good has to be tick), and sort of change the dynamic on the ruck position. We should look at it and learn, as should most of the other clubs.

Yep. I'll admit I didn't rate the moves either. So it's a bit silly of me to pot our list managers. But the moves have certainly changed the narrative of recruiting. It has in my eyes and certainly with the saints' dramatic improvement it will change how list managers approach recruiting. And look it is still early but Howard and Butler had proven abilities and Ryder is known to only have a few years left, but valuable ones at that. Would these moves have had the same impact if Richardson was still in charge?

[GVGjr]

With no VFL this year it was was hard to consider any players let alone develop them. Schache missed half the season with injuries.

The development issue though isn't just limited to this season and we can always find convenient excuses. Next year we might use the excuse that it's because of the lack of development coaches.

The fact is Lewis Young, as an example, has gone backwards with us since his promising debut season and with just one senior game early in the season this year it's actually not because of a lack of VFL games.

I'll check further but I don't think Schache missed 9 games this year through injury. He was though made to earn his spot and performed strongly in his first game and then was selected in a rain sodden game the following week that he was never suited for before getting dropped for the balance of the season. I'll acknowledge injuries player its role we stuck with Bruce who was producing every little and ignored Young and Schache

Outside of Naughton, who has been an absolute gem, we haven't been convincing in developing our taller KPP for a while now

[bornadog]

Outside of Naughton, who has been an absolute gem, we haven't been convincing in developing our taller KPP for a while now

English.

Who else have we drafted other than Lewis Young?

[Bulldog Revolution]

Its probably worth noting that most would have not have expected Dan Butler to have had such an impact

He's had a fantastic year, and I personally love the way he goes about it

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I think we need to change the plans. They have not worked in years.

As evidence:

Carlton destroyed the Dogs early in 2019. Yet they hadn’t won a game for a long time. They did it again in 2020 when the Dogs supposedly had a stronger team.

St Kilda has finished the season below the Dogs for 6? Years. Last year they humiliated the Dogs and did it again this year. Then in the final they were more than 4 goals ahead at 3/4 time.

If teams residing lower on the ladder can consistently worry a talented group there is a fault in the game plan.

Bringing in players from from other teams hasn’t worked because they cannot adjust to our game plan. In fact we have exported more successful players than are being proposed. We want a hard working small forward- get Dahl back. Want a full back - get Roughy back.

We need to be careful about recruiting players from weaker Clubs eg Bruce from St Kilda who had been struggling, likewise Keath from a poor Adelaide team and similarly Gardner from Geelong reserves team. Successful Clubs have targeted obvious talent from GWS.
I am amazed that the Brisbane Lions would recruit a Daniher for example given his history of injuries etc and the poor culture that has existed at Essendon.
Not sure if it is a good policy to consider players like Roughead who should have been retained in the first place but was considered dispensable at the time and Dahlhaus.

[soupman]

English.

Who else have we drafted other than Lewis Young?

English is a controversial one as to whether we are developing him well but I'll still pay it.

Boyd, Cordy, Collins, Adams, English, Young, Mullenger-McHugh, Schache, Naughton, Gardner are all the young talls we have picked up in Beveridges tenure.

There are 3 AFL quality guys in there, with an additional 5 being borderline AFL quality. I suspect that's par but it's hardly inspiring.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

English is a controversial one as to whether we are developing him well but I'll still pay it.

Boyd, Cordy, Collins, Adams, English, Young, Mullenger-McHugh, Schache, Naughton, Gardner are all the young talls we have picked up in Beveridges tenure.

There are 3 AFL quality guys in there, with an additional 5 being borderline AFL quality. I suspect that's par but it's hardly inspiring.

English unlike John Schultz and Scott Wynd who were natural ruck men does not after 4 years appeal as a natural ruckman. Schultz represented Victoria in his first year and remained a State player for the next 10 years with both he and Wynd going on to win Brownlow Medals. Tim English has the skills to be a key forward but given our inability to attract another ruckman has been forced to continue as our number one ruck.

[jazzadogs]

English unlike John Schultz and Scott Wynd who were natural ruck men does not after 4 years appeal as a natural ruckman. Schultz represented Victoria in his first year and remained a State player for the next 10 years with both he and Wynd going on to win Brownlow Medals. Tim English has the skills to be a key forward but given our inability to attract another ruckman has been forced to continue as our number one ruck.

I thought I'd look back at English's history in the ruck, and found this article link (https://www.afl.com.au/news/149481/was-new-bulldog-tim-english-the-draft-steal-of-2016).

This particular quote was pretty distressing:
"the beauty for the Bulldogs is that they can let the 19-year-old develop in the VFL for the first couple of years, with premiership ruckmen Jordan Roughead and Tom Boyd to hold down the senior position in the meantime.

When English adds size to his upper body and can cope with the demands of AFL footy, the Bulldogs' will become even more versatile, with Roughead to push forward or back and Boyd to spend more time stationed inside 50."

FWIW he was playing as a midfielder 3 years before the draft, then had his significant growth spurt. It makes sense that he is not a natural ruckman given that history, but he really needs to work on his grappling/wrestling at ball ups and boundary throw ins.

[Axe Man]

We need to get Tim angry, like Coach Klein did with Bobby Boucher.

[bornadog]

English is a controversial one as to whether we are developing him well but I'll still pay it.

Boyd, Cordy, Collins, Adams, English, Young, Mullenger-McHugh, Schache, Naughton, Gardner are all the young talls we have picked up in Beveridges tenure.

There are 3 AFL quality guys in there, with an additional 5 being borderline AFL quality. I suspect that's par but it's hardly inspiring.

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Boyd retired, so we leave him aside - but virtually BOG in a GF

Naughton and English are first rounders and no doubt makes a difference. Both developing nicely

Cordy - hardly a tall when you are the same size as Bont - but can't see issue in his development

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Adams - wanted to leave, also a mature recruit - doesn't count

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

Gardner - time will tell.


So in your list, I would argue only two where the jury is out for failing in developing them. Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

[jazzadogs]

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Boyd retired, so we leave him aside - but virtually BOG in a GF

Naughton and English are first rounders and no doubt makes a difference. Both developing nicely

Cordy - hardly a tall when you are the same size as Bont - but can't see issue in his development

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Adams - wanted to leave, also a mature recruit - doesn't count

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

Gardner - time will tell.


So in your list, I would argue only two where the jury is out for failing in developing them. Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

It's hard to argue that Gardner hasn't improved and developed while he's been on our list. Whether that improvement has got him to AFL standard is up for debate, but the overall development is undeniable.

[GVGjr]

English.

Who else have we drafted other than Lewis Young?

I thought you said ruckman were different to KPP? Either way with whatever interpretation is applied, English isn't the finished product yet (although I'm confident he can be) and Bevo is lamenting our lack of height around the ground.
We are certainly preferring to trade for the KP types with the likes of Hamling, Boyd, Trengove, Schache, Gardner, Bruce and Keath all traded or listed than necessarily developing our own. Perhaps we need to be prepared to invest a bit more on some taller prospects and back our development

This misses might be Collins, Adams, Young (I still have high hopes), Sweet, Mullenger-McHugh and Goetz

[GVGjr]

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Boyd retired, so we leave him aside - but virtually BOG in a GF

Naughton and English are first rounders and no doubt makes a difference. Both developing nicely

Cordy - hardly a tall when you are the same size as Bont - but can't see issue in his development

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Adams - wanted to leave, also a mature recruit - doesn't count

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

Gardner - time will tell.


So in your list, I would argue only two where the jury is out for failing in developing them. Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

Please don't misquote me, I never said we suck at it. You were offering up that the lack of development this year was because there was no VFL. What I said was our lack of development for KPP has been happening for more than this year and that we prefer to trade for established talls (the quicker fix) than develop our own.

I think what I have said is pretty accurate but I never said we suck at it. That is your interpretation of what I said and I don't believe it is accurate.

[bornadog]

Please don't misquote me, I never said we suck at it. You were offering up that the lack of development this year was because there was no VFL. What I said was our lack of development for KPP has been happening for more than this year and that we prefer to trade for established talls (the quicker fix) than develop our own.

I think what I have said is pretty accurate but I never said we suck at it. That is your interpretation of what I said and I don't believe it is accurate.

Ok maybe bad choice of words




Outside of Naughton, who has been an absolute gem, we haven't been convincing in developing our taller KPP for a while now

[soupman]

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.


Well two proper AFL quality talls (one of which is frequently not good at the one position we use him in) would suggest we aren't great.

I concede it's a really difficult argument because there are so many variables, for example Ryan Gardner can only be so good, if he only develops into a fringe AFL player is that a failure of development or a testament to how well we developed him that a player of his ability even got that good.

I'm not sure clubs typically develop an abundance of good talls anyway but arguably Naughton and English are the only two talls to feature in our side for the last few years that we can claim to have developed that would be automatic picks. Cordy might just sneak in but I'd hardly expect people to consider him a walk up start.



Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop


If Schache and Young have a 2021 like they did a 2020 is that due to development or do they become drafting failures as well? At the very least development works in tandem with the draft, with both needing to be successes to result in a good player. I understand Collins and NMM weren't very good, but we saw enough in them to give them both multiple years (Sweet as well) so not sure we can hide behind the "we were lumped with this crap by the recruiters" argument.


Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

Yeah they don't peak till they're 25 but they usually become contributors pretty early. Just looking at four clubs randomly (West Coast, Port, GWS and Essendon) and the only AFL quality talls they have that weren't already well on their way by the age of say 22 are Dixon, Lycett, Hooker and Bellchambers and they still managed about 12 games in their 22nd year.

Edit: I agree we probably don't suck at it but we are much closer to sucking at it than excelling imo.

[bornadog]

Edit: I agree we probably don't suck at it but we are much closer to sucking at it than excelling imo.

We also have to ask, is it failure to develop, or bad drafting, or the player is just not good enough?

Sometimes talls are brilliant in junior years, because they are so much bigger than other kids and they dominate. When the other kids catchup and become men, then it gets harder.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Well Schache arguably has talent doesn’t he? It’s mental with him. In my mind you either have the physicality or you don’t...there’s only so much you can do to "coach" it. On talent alone he’s a start in our 22 every week.

[DOG GOD]

Well Schache arguably has talent doesn’t he? It’s mental with him. In my mind you either have the physicality or you don’t...there’s only so much you can do to "coach" it. On talent alone he’s a start in our 22 every week.
And it gripes me to see someone talented, being shafted on the basis that he isn’t physical enough, yet Tim (because he’s pretty much the only ruck of note on our list) gets a free ride only based on where he plays. If he was a CHF, would he be given the same treatment as Schache ?

[GVGjr]

Well Schache arguably has talent doesn’t he? It’s mental with him. In my mind you either have the physicality or you don’t...there’s only so much you can do to "coach" it. On talent alone he’s a start in our 22 every week.

I think it can be coached into a player or at least improved by a fair bit.
Schache is a bit part of the problem for his lack of games this year. If he doesn't hear the warning bells now he will never hear them

I just think he is close to being an exceptional talent and we have to find a way of unlocking that
He, Naughton and Bruce could be a great forward combination but failing that perhaps a trial as a key defender might do wonders for him like it did Jones when he moved to Carlton.

[josie]

In a side chock full of poor goal kickers Schache is a shining light. Let’s hope he has plenty of opportunities in 2021 in RWB. Then if he does not make it with us we have no annoying what ifs.

[Danjul]

Well Schache arguably has talent doesn’t he? It’s mental with him. In my mind you either have the physicality or you don’t...there’s only so much you can do to "coach" it. On talent alone he’s a start in our 22 every week.

Siren has gone, the player is 50 metres from goal on a significant angle, we are 3 points down. He runs in and kicks the goal.

No surprise because that’s why we got him. Who is he? Who’s a reliable long kick who engenders confidence?

This skill is lacking in our selection parameters and that’s why we need enormous numbers of inside 50’s to generate a few goals.

The reason we are no longer in the finals is from a possession 50 metres out we frequently (usually) need another 3 or 4 possessions.

[CarnTheScray]

Too be honest I think Schache has just as much talent if not more than Naughton. Naughton is just more confident in his ability and more physical. If Schache had those traits he'd be a great forward. He is a beautiful kick.

[GVGjr]

Too be honest I think Schache has just as much talent if not more than Naughton. Naughton is just more confident in his ability and more physical. If Schache had those traits he'd be a great forward. He is a beautiful kick.

Naughton has some swagger, Schache just needs some more confidence and a bit more mongrel about him

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Siren has gone, the player is 50 metres from goal on a significant angle, we are 3 points down. He runs in and kicks the goal.

No surprise because that’s why we got him. Who is he? Who’s a reliable long kick who engenders confidence?

This skill is lacking in our selection parameters and that’s why we need enormous numbers of inside 50’s to generate a few goals.

The reason we are no longer in the finals is from a possession 50 metres out we frequently (usually) need another 3 or 4 possessions.

Siren goes, Schache has kicked 1 goal and is lining up after the siren for a 2rd on a significant angle. He slots it, he's a beautifil kick. Unfortunately we lose by 4 goals.
The theme after the game is just how lacklustre and uncompetitive Schache looked, bringing no physicality, looking disinterested and not working defensively.

I like Schache, I want him to succeed, but lets not play the game where we pretend we're leaving John Coleman out of the side. Right now Schache is unrealised talent. Its up to him whether he's got it in him to be an AFL player.
Brisbane had no problem letting him go for pretty ordinary compensation given he was only pick 2 a couple of years earlier.

[Grantysghost]

Siren goes, Schache has kicked 1 goal and is lining up after the siren for a 2rd on a significant angle. He slots it, he's a beautifil kick. Unfortunately we lose by 4 goals.
The theme after the game is just how lacklustre and uncompetitive Schache looked, bringing no physicality, looking disinterested and not working defensively.

I like Schache, I want him to succeed, but lets not play the game where we pretend we're leaving John Coleman out of the side. Right now Schache is unrealised talent. Its up to him whether he's got it in him to be an AFL player.
Brisbane had no problem letting him go for pretty ordinary compensation given he was only pick 2 a couple of years earlier.

I agree with this.
Imagine what it's like for the coaches for a second. We just lost a final where we missed some crucial shots, and arguably our best goal kicker isn't out there because he may not be doing what they're asking. I understand he was injured but he just needs to make it impossible not to pick him when he's available. I hope he gets to that place.
If we are frustrated I can only imagine they'd be going grey.

[Happy Days]

Siren goes, Schache has kicked 1 goal and is lining up after the siren for a 2rd on a significant angle. He slots it, he's a beautifil kick. Unfortunately we lose by 4 goals.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqXfjp4Yls8&ab_channel=trapjaw

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqXfjp4Yls8&ab_channel=trapjaw

Hahaha. I loved that episode!

[Danjul]

Siren goes, Schache has kicked 1 goal and is lining up after the siren for a 2rd on a significant angle. He slots it, he's a beautifil kick. Unfortunately we lose by 4 goals.
The theme after the game is just how lacklustre and uncompetitive Schache looked, bringing no physicality, looking disinterested and not working defensively.

I like Schache, I want him to succeed, but lets not play the game where we pretend we're leaving John Coleman out of the side. Right now Schache is unrealised talent. Its up to him whether he's got it in him to be an AFL player.
Brisbane had no problem letting him go for pretty ordinary compensation given he was only pick 2 a couple of years earlier.

I didn’t mention Schache. I was thinking of a situation I have seen a number of times which none of our forwards are capable of.

But thanks for pointing out that Schache can be relied upon to get 2 goals. Bruce did that twice this year and so did Naughton. In fact it was almost comical to see them getting in each other’s way. Their lack of understanding of how to play on the same forward line really cost us. I’m trying to remove all memories of that wasted afternoon so I’m not sure if anyone actually got 2 goals.

I looked it up. The team with less talent, less disposals, 15 less inside 50’s ,less scoring shots won. None of the ‘physical ‘ forwards could manage a second goal when it was needed.

The Dogs lost another one that should not have been in dispute.

[kruder]

Can anyone work out where Easton Wood plays for the next 2 years? If we are successful and get another key defender and small forward surely Crozier goes back and gets dangerous along with Keath in the air and Williams Duryea JJ Daniel and Richards rotate through the running back roles. Easton just doesn't intercept mark anymore, and he obviously cant play as a key defender it's going to be very interesting in how we use him. Can you play as a lock down small defender and not offer anything offensively in the modern game?

[GVGjr]

Development of players has been given a bit of a mention of late. Just watching Mark Williams on the Front Bar and I feel we could benefit from having him at the club working with some of our players. He's still got something to offer

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Can anyone work out where Easton Wood plays for the next 2 years?

Footscray.

I've loved Woody over the years for the most part and he was spectacular in 15-16, but he offers next to nothing now. As you mentioned, he doesn't intercept anymore, he doesn't rebound and he can't play above his weight on the KPPs.

Simply needs to get back to intercepting to find a spot IMO.

[kruder]

Development of players has been given a bit of a mention of late. Just watching Mark Williams on the Front Bar and I feel we could benefit from having him at the club working with some of our players. He's still got something to offer

Whats the odds of no change in the coaching department you think? It's surprising no one in the media even gives it a mention.

[GVGjr]

Whats the odds of no change in the coaching department you think? It's surprising no one in the media even gives it a mention.

We won't change the coaching. We've made the hard cuts and I doubt we will push things further but if player development is a focus then Williams or someone like him might be a welcome addition

[Sedat]

Footscray.

I've loved Woody over the years for the most part and he was spectacular in 15-16, but he offers next to nothing now. As you mentioned, he doesn't intercept anymore, he doesn't rebound and he can't play above his weight on the KPPs.

Simply needs to get back to intercepting to find a spot IMO.

Wood's future lies as a hard lockdown defender on the opposition's most dangerous small forward, which he showed on Charlie Cameron earlier this year he can perform well in that role for the next 12-18 months. His days as a rebound marking defender are over.

[Hotdog60]

The club has just announced a new development office and starts at the beginning of the pre season.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkDoaqGsO14

[SonofScray]

I don't think Schache is nearly as soft as most would have us believe. He is certainly not an aggressive, bustling player. But I'm not convinced he has to be, to be a very good footballer. He copped the soft tag early and it just won't go away.

At his best he is an efficient forward who can work up and down the field into space and bring others into the game by foot. He is capable player on the lead and has enough size to make it difficult for opposition to ignore him. Look at his 24 goals from 2019 and he is demonstrating an ability to find space, keep his feet, win the footy and finish.

Just play him and let him get some continuity into his game. We did it with Bruce for SFA return, but haven't been keen to do for a proven goal kicker. RidIculous.

[jazzadogs]

I don't think Schache is nearly as soft as most would have us believe. He is certainly not an aggressive, bustling player. But I'm not convinced he has to be, to be a very good footballer. He copped the soft tag early and it just won't go away.

At his best he is an efficient forward who can work up and down the field into space and bring others into the game by foot. He is capable player on the lead and has enough size to make it difficult for opposition to ignore him. Look at his 24 goals from 2019 and he is demonstrating an ability to find space, keep his feet, win the footy and finish.

Just play him and let him get some continuity into his game. We did it with Bruce for SFA return, but haven't been keen to do for a proven goal kicker. RidIculous.

A definite reason why Bruce got consistent games ahead of Schache was that he attacks marking contests with intent, and is willing to crash packs to create spillage. This didn't always happen, and he still needed to do more on top of that to justify his spot, but I'm sure the knowledge that Schache would not have been crashing packs played in to the MC mind.

[comrade]

A definite reason why Bruce got consistent games ahead of Schache was that he attacks marking contests with intent, and is willing to crash packs to create spillage. This didn't always happen, and he still needed to do more on top of that to justify his spot, but I'm sure the knowledge that Schache would not have been crashing packs played in to the MC mind.

I think Bruce took the 'crash packs' mantra way too far in the EF. He was literally crashing EVERY pack, even if Naughton had a good fly at it (except for the one where he inexplicably let Membrey mark uncontested late but lets not go there).

I'm not sure we're getting our money's worth, paying a bloke good money for 4 years just to make a contest.

[jazzadogs]

I think Bruce took the 'crash packs' mantra way too far in the EF. He was literally crashing EVERY pack, even if Naughton had a good fly at it (except for the one where he inexplicably let Membrey mark uncontested late but lets not go there).

I'm not sure we're getting our money's worth, paying a bloke good money for 4 years just to make a contest.

I have (probably too much) confidence that he will come out and have a great year next year, and kick 30+ goals. His four completed seasons as a forward before this year he kicked 50, 38, 36, 36.

It is entirely dependent on his fitness IMO. We know he has talent.

[Happy Days]

I think Bruce took the 'crash packs' mantra way too far in the EF. He was literally crashing EVERY pack, even if Naughton had a good fly at it (except for the one where he inexplicably let Membrey mark uncontested late but lets not go there).

I'm not sure we're getting our money's worth, paying a bloke good money for 4 years just to make a contest.

He was crashing every pack he could get to, but I actually found his inability to get to the majority of contests embarrasing. I hold his as accountable as English or anyone else for allowing those 21 contested marks to be taken.

[comrade]

He was crashing every pack he could get to, but I actually found his inability to get to the majority of contests embarrasing. I hold his as accountable as English or anyone else for allowing those 21 contested marks to be taken.

Yeah, I should have added a disclaimer *

[Danjul]

A definite reason why Bruce got consistent games ahead of Schache was that he attacks marking contests with intent, and is willing to crash packs to create spillage. This didn't always happen, and he still needed to do more on top of that to justify his spot, but I'm sure the knowledge that Schache would not have been crashing packs played in to the MC mind.

It was obvious that Bruce was following instructions to crash packs. He did it so well that Naughton could only get 2 possessions to 3/4 time. He was still doing it late in the last quarter. Naughton had to outmark him to get his only goal.

We saw Gowers do it earlier in the year, no attempt at grabbing the ball, just make sure nobody else can.

We can see it as part of Gardner’s development. He had 1 contested mark in his first 9 games.

The MC wants this to be part of the team’s DNA. And it’s working, we are a pretty reasonable middle order side.

[Happy Days]

It was obvious that Bruce was following instructions to crash packs. He did it so well that Naughton could only get 2 possessions to 3/4 time. He was still doing it late in the last quarter. Naughton had to outmark him to get his only goal.

We saw Gowers do it earlier in the year, no attempt at grabbing the ball, just make sure nobody else can.

We can see it as part of Gardner’s development. He had 1 contested mark in his first 9 games.

The MC wants this to be part of the team’s DNA. And it’s working, we are a pretty reasonable middle order side.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering our noted weakness at small forward. My concern is that if we bring in someone we believe to be a high level crumber that this will only cause Bevo to double down, instead of fixing the problem in a way that will actually work.

[Danjul]

I have (probably too much) confidence that he will come out and have a great year next year, and kick 30+ goals. His four completed seasons as a forward before this year he kicked 50, 38, 36, 36.

It is entirely dependent on his fitness IMO. We know he has talent.

Didn’t he make leads, take marks and kick goals in the practice match (and at the Saints). All things he doesn’t attempt now. This crash the pack disease is something he caught at the Dogs.

[Mofra]

A definite reason why Bruce got consistent games ahead of Schache was that he attacks marking contests with intent, and is willing to crash packs to create spillage. This didn't always happen, and he still needed to do more on top of that to justify his spot, but I'm sure the knowledge that Schache would not have been crashing packs played in to the MC mind.
Well Bruce plays like a KPF and Schache like a leading flanker.

Height aside, they are not comparable players. They play completely different styles of football.

[Danjul]

A definite reason why Bruce got consistent games ahead of Schache was that he attacks marking contests with intent, and is willing to crash packs to create spillage. This didn't always happen, and he still needed to do more on top of that to justify his spot, but I'm sure the knowledge that Schache would not have been crashing packs played in to the MC mind.
The definition of spillage is “the Dogs don’t have the ball and therefore can’t dictate what happens to it”.

I would much rather see a game style where the players keep control by using foot skills to put the ball in a teammate’s hands.

That is what the teams that comfortably beat us do.

And it’s what the premiership group did. Spoiling was limited to inside defensive 50, and it was directed towards Boyd and Biggs who set up to receive. It was purposeful, now nobody knows where the ball is going.

PS. Despite attacking marking contests with intent he took only 1 mark in the final. 2 might have won it.

[1eyedog]

I don't think Schache is nearly as soft as most would have us believe. He is certainly not an aggressive, bustling player. But I'm not convinced he has to be, to be a very good footballer. He copped the soft tag early and it just won't go away.

At his best he is an efficient forward who can work up and down the field into space and bring others into the game by foot. He is capable player on the lead and has enough size to make it difficult for opposition to ignore him. Look at his 24 goals from 2019 and he is demonstrating an ability to find space, keep his feet, win the footy and finish.

Just play him and let him get some continuity into his game. We did it with Bruce for SFA return, but haven't been keen to do for a proven goal kicker. RidIculous.

I'm biased because i love Schache but I'd prefer a less aggressive key forward who kicks goals, or at least kicks straight, rather than an aggressive one who...crashes packs.

[SonofScray]

A definite reason why Bruce got consistent games ahead of Schache was that he attacks marking contests with intent, and is willing to crash packs to create spillage. This didn't always happen, and he still needed to do more on top of that to justify his spot, but I'm sure the knowledge that Schache would not have been crashing packs played in to the MC mind.
Definitely.

Here's the issue I have with that though. It doesn't work. Not for us, probably not for anyone. As a strategy it exists in this weird footy space where it sounds good, makes sense but means SFA. Another one is kick it to the top of the square. Crashing packs is a euphemism for blokes who can't mark or get the footy. Kick it to the top of the square leads to a turn over more often than not, yet is deemed playing the percentages.

My coach used to ask me to crash the packs. It's because I was shit at footy.

[GVGjr]

So we have Naughton, Bruce, Schache and soon enough Ugle-Hagan
Is 4 tall left footed forwards a bit of overkill?

[Danjul]

So we have Naughton, Bruce, Schache and soon enough Ugle-Hagan
Is 4 tall left footed forwards a bit of overkill?

Only one of them knows how to play on the forward line without getting in the way. Hopefully UH will quickly show he can too.

[Grantysghost]

So we have Naughton, Bruce, Schache and soon enough Ugle-Hagan
Is 4 tall left footed forwards a bit of overkill?

Realistically without a season of top age u18 behind him this season, how many games do we see Jamarra playing?

[GVGjr]

Realistically without a season of top age u18 behind him this season, how many games do we see Jamarra playing?

Not many at all. I'm interested in if 3 left foot tall forwards would cause some congestion?

[Danjul]

Not many at all. I'm interested in if 3 left foot tall forwards would cause some congestion?
Naughton did extremely well when Schache was in the team during the last half of the season last year. Schache led defenders away and opened the forward line. Naughton had less to compete against and Dale was able to find space. The result was an avalanche of goals. The whole team played better with a functioning forward line.

This season there has been minimal leading, leaving Naughton and Bruce too close together, and encouraging ‘long bombs’ which assist the defenders.

It isn’t which foot they are using but which side of the brain.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Naughton did extremely well when Schache was in the team during the last half of the season last year. Schache led defenders away and opened the forward line. Naughton had less to compete against and Dale was able to find space. The result was an avalanche of goals. The whole team played better with a functioning forward line.

This season there has been minimal leading, leaving Naughton and Bruce too close together, and encouraging ‘long bombs’ which assist the defenders.

It isn’t which foot they are using but which side of the brain.

So Correlation equals causality in this case Danjul?
No other factors that we would really like to replicate each game, that could explain this dual Shache/Naughton success?
Just 'Schache led defenders away and opened the forward line'??
That's really what the data shows? unequivocally?

[jeemak]

So Correlation equals causality in this case Danjul?
No other factors that we would really like to replicate each game, that could explain this dual Shache/Naughton success?
Just 'Schache led defenders away and opened the forward line'??
That's really what the data shows? unequivocally?

Don't.

You're arguing against a highly sophisticated BOT.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So Correlation equals causality in this case Danjul?
No other factors that we would really like to replicate each game, that could explain this dual Shache/Naughton success?
Just 'Schache led defenders away and opened the forward line'??
That's really what the data shows? unequivocally?

I really want to swear here..

What you're saying Danjul is that our coaches did not like the spate of scoring that occurred with Naughton, Schache and Dale in our line up.. and were so take by its offensiveness that they sought to change that dynamic and ensure it never happened again!

Stop the hyperbole, please..
It's perfectly fine AND INTERESTING to push back against what the club has done to get us where we are... but please don't create an AFL equivalence of a Trumpist post truth argument.

I am pretty confident the club was creaming themselves at the prospect of a Naughton, Schache, Dale AND Bruce forward line in 2020...

I am also confident the club did not envisage Schache would not progress, or Dale.......

But lets not put any ownership on those guys.....

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Don't.

You're arguing against a highly sophisticated BOT.

That may be... but I heard 'Dont pay the ferryman' whilst walking through Bunnings last Sunday... and I've not head that for 25 years.....and that has me crapping my pants way more than this exchange, given you mentioned that very song here...
I audibly gasped...my son looked at my quizzically.. I am sure he thinks the matrix just showed itself. and I don't know what to tell him.

[jeemak]

That may be... but I heard 'Dont pay the ferryman' whilst walking through Bunnings last Sunday... and I've not head that for 25 years.....and that has me crapping my pants way more than this exchange, given you mentioned that very song here...
I audibly gasped...my son looked at my quizzically.. I am sure he thinks the matrix just showed itself. and I don't know what to tell him.

If you hear Elton John " I want to kiss the bride" then we're doomed, because I've been hearing that from the same source as "Don't pay the ferryman".

It's terrible.

[Mitcha]

Development of players has been given a bit of a mention of late. Just watching Mark Williams on the Front Bar and I feel we could benefit from having him at the club working with some of our players. He's still got something to offer
Reminds me far too much of Sheedy and Bomber Thompson, talks in riddles, hard too follow. Must be something about those Essendon types.

[Bullies]

Realistically without a season of top age u18 behind him this season, how many games do we see Jamarra playing?<br>
Kevin Sheehan said the other day that out of the Top 3 draft picks that Jamarra would be the one who will need time because of his build. He did say though that is not to say he won't play many games but it will take time with him as he is very raw. I think the other two were mid fielders and he said they fit in far easier these days and don't take as long to develop.

[Danjul]

So Correlation equals causality in this case Danjul?
No other factors that we would really like to replicate each game, that could explain this dual Shache/Naughton success?
Just 'Schache led defenders away and opened the forward line'??
That's really what the data shows? unequivocally?


I am just pointing out a few small facts that might get people talking and actually finding a solution to the clubs problems. Examine the games won in 2019. You will notice an interesting fact. Trengove. Look at the elimination final. No Trengove.

Now extend the observations to include the losses. You will see more patterns. None of them flattering to the management of the team, they have shown nothing that leads me to think 2020 won’t be the best season in a decade.

This is the same group that gave us a whole season in the bottom of the ladder in 2018. And blaming youth and experimentation doesn’t cut it. The management of the team has failed dismally and only a few talented observers can make any sense of it.

I thought the team could have gone further in 2015, was only slightly surprised in 2016 and totally mystified but what has happened since.

Saying the ruck is unimportant, putting training style ahead of game output, public humiliation by sitting someone on the bench from half time, not using position specialists - the list goes on. And so will the losses.

I can’t see how blatantly playing favourites is going to attract talent, I can foresee some of our own players looking elsewhere (maybe Roughead was a bigger warning sign about the team’s management than we realise).

I hope the people in positions of influence act on your suggestions, they are good ones and I can see how they will bring success , but until then us bewildered cretins who don’t understand statistics will just have to agitate.

[AshMac]

whilst walking through Bunnings last Sunday...

You tease!