Treloar as an outside mid - Please explain.

[mjp]

So - We have recruited the very good player Adam Treloar.

Since his debut year in 2012, he has pretty consistently increased his possession rate every year...except this year when shortened quarters didn't really help. He is an ELITE first handball receiver and often gets on the end of the hands of 'in and under' players.

BUT. He handballs a LOT.

He is regularly criticised for making less than optional kick-handball decisions...and in particular less than optional kick decisions.

He has played NINE seasons of AFL footy...after 9 years, most players are who they are.

I don't think he is an outside mid because nothing he has done to this point suggests he is. Outside mids are all about positioning, being 2nd possession receivers and run+carry+kick players. Adam is an elite FIRST possession receiver and tends to find his footy inside the contest rather than 'outside'. His marks per game have dropped pretty much every season since he came into the league (his marks were highest when his possessions were lowest if you can believe this) and a key role of a winger is being that exit kick/switch kick receiver (which is often a mark)...he doesn't really DO that.

So now that the dust has somewhat settled - and with the understanding that I still think he is a quality player - where EXACTLY is he going to fit in...and if it is outside the game, what changes to his on-field behaviours will he need to make in order to adapt...and can he??

[comrade]

Play him inside at contests around the ground (not centre square), Hunter, VDM and JJ to play through wing.

[Go_Dogs]

What is an outside player these days? He’s definitely inside-out, but no reason why he can’t do more work running and kicking in our side where there will be less reliance on him getting the ball in tight.

[Happy Days]

I was citing it more as a way he could fit into what we're trying to do, as at first glance we absolutely do not need another centre square midfielder. You're right in saying that he's never done it before, but is that because he can't or because he can do other things that teams find more valuable? There's a clear weakness in our team and has been for years, and Treloar is as suited as anyone else in the side to fill it.

Handballing a lot is not fatal to a winger's game and using handball to be involved in possession chains can be incredibly valuable. And who knows, maybe the split second extra he'll have to dispose of the ball will improve his kicking (which honestly really isn't that bad).

He's probably just going to be a rotation with Baz, but I don't see any reason why, with the tools in his kit, that he wouldn't be fantastic at a role on the outside, and at any rate I kinda wanna see it.

[boydogs]

Was Chris Judd an outside mid? Not known for his kicking either

[Mofra]

He will be fantastic for us given so much footy these days is played through multiple stoppages.
We have one player who can genuinely breakaway from congestion (Smith) and now we have two. I'd have one of Treloar or Smith at the contest at all times given Baz can also win his own ball or receive.

Pure inside: Dunkley/Libba
Breakaway/burst mids: Treloar/Smith
Evasive 'do to all' mids: Bont/Macrae

There's our rotations. Macrae is going to have to learn to play high half forward again to allow others their chance in the centre.

[jeemak]

He will be fantastic for us given so much footy these days is played through multiple stoppages.
We have one player who can genuinely breakaway from congestion (Smith) and now we have two. I'd have one of Treloar or Smith at the contest at all times given Baz can also win his own ball or receive.

Pure inside: Dunkley/Libba
Breakaway/burst mids: Treloar/Smith
Evasive 'do to all' mids: Bont/Macrae

There's our rotations. Macrae is going to have to learn to play high half forward again to allow others their chance in the centre.

I can see this working.

Not to say that the likes of Macrae and Treloar can't take some time on the outside alongside Smith. It may not be their full time roles but all of these players are smart enough to find an advantage and bring different skills to the table.

I actually think Jacko does some of his best work when given some space and able to cut the angles with lateral kicking to open up the ground.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I can see this working.

Not to say that the likes of Macrae and Treloar can't take some time on the outside alongside Smith. It may not be their full time roles but all of these players are smart enough to find an advantage and bring different skills to the table.

I actually think Jacko does some of his best work when given some space and able to cut the angles with lateral kicking to open up the ground.

Agree on Macrae particularly - in a different way, he might be a bit Caleb like in his ability to hit angles across HF.

[Mofra]

I actually think Jacko does some of his best work when given some space and able to cut the angles with lateral kicking to open up the ground.
I'd actually like to see him outside a little more so he can bring back his sidestep. It was beautiful in his first couple of seasons but we don't see it anywhere often enough these days.

[jeemak]

Should probably note that this is also when he can be his most frustrating!

[Doc26]

Apols up front for some form of death by stats but in in terms of Adam's kick to handball ratio he does sit in the higher category of ~1.20 handballs per kick, but he is in very good company with Fyfe, Jacko, Libba, Mitchell all with higher ratios, and on par with Oliver.

However, of the 49 players who averaged more than 20 disposals per game this season, Adam was still ranked at #22 for most disposals by foot. This is a higher avg disposal by foot than Marcus, Jacko, Bailey and Libba, and ahead of Pendlebury, Tim Kelly, Petracca, Oliver, Steele, and Fyfe etc etc. Interestingly, of those players averaging more than ~20 disposals per game, Matt Crouch and Josh Dunkley sit way out on top of the league for their H/K ratio at 1.57, with Josh sitting in the bottom 40th percentile for disposals by foot (>=10 games played).

Anyway back on topic, Adam also sits in the top 15 in the league for average inside 50s, and ahead of the likes of Shiel, Josh Kelly, Shuey, Oliver, Steele, Prestia, and our own Bailey Smith etc etc.

As for average clearances, he sits in the top 8 in the league, ahead of all of our mids, and on par with Lachie Neale.

I don't think we should be selling Adam to short on his ability to be damaging on the outside.

[w3design]

Treloar is not an inside mid as such. I'd describe him as more predator who specialises in getting the ball from spillage and then sprinting into space. He relies heavily on his capacity to break free into space. If he's able to do that, he is a very damaging player. At Collingwood he was forced to play more as an inside mid as Adams is their only real first dibs, bottom of the pack mid. At the dogs, he'll have more support from the likes of Libba and McCrae. I think he'll be a better player at the dogs if his hammies hold out.

[kruder]

Apparently Treloar cant play on the outside.... Looks like the AFL.com highlights disagree :)

This guy adds a massive point of difference to our midfield group, we just need someone to cover him as he goes forward.

Dunks we need your help with something... ;)

https://www.afl.com.au/video/523574/get-excited-watch-the-best-highlights-of-adam-treloar?videoId=523574&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1605171614001&tagNames=ProgramType:Programs&references=AFL_COMPETITION:1

[bornadog]

Apparently Treloar cant play on the outside.... Looks like the AFL.com highlights disagree :)

This guy adds a massive point of difference to our midfield group, we just need someone to cover him as he goes forward.

Dunks we need your help with something... ;)

https://www.afl.com.au/video/523574/get-excited-watch-the-best-highlights-of-adam-treloar?videoId=523574&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1605171614001&tagNames=ProgramType:Programs&references=AFL_COMPETITION:1

Great highlights, exciting player. Isn't it great to get a quality player at his peak, rather than his latter years when he is near retirement like we have done in the past.

[Smads57]

I just like his goal kicking nous - looks like an upgrade on both Dunks and Macrae

[SquirrelGrip]

They are seriously good highlights.

[MrMahatma]

I just like his goal kicking nous - looks like an upgrade on both Dunks and Macrae

An upgrade in terms of, overall or just the goal kicking?

[mjp]

Apparently Treloar cant play on the outside.... Looks like the AFL.com highlights disagree :)



Clip 1 - Started as an inside mid.
Clip 2 - As above
Clip 3 - Difficult to tell but certainly received the ball from Pendlebury INSIDE the contest
Clip 4 - Inside mid - FORWARD of the contest to receive
Clip 5 - Receives the ball inside the corridor from the hhf.

If you want to convince me Treloar is a good player, you don't need to do that. If you want to convince me he can play as a genuine 4-q outside mid then these highlights don't do it.

What the highlights do show are that Adam is an ELITE 1st hb receive player with great speed and good skills by foot - which I have already said. He also really rolls the dice to get ahead of the play and receive...which is what our mids already do...

I think we are right to be excited about the addition of Treloar to our team but he is an INSIDE midfielder and we have an absolute logjam at that position...changes are going to have to be made because in the past we have seen Macrae, Dunks and Liber all variously sook it up about playing forward OR basically just sucked at playing forward...

[Mofra]

I think we are right to be excited about the addition of Treloar to our team but he is an INSIDE midfielder and we have an absolute logjam at that position...changes are going to have to be made because in the past we have seen Macrae, Dunks and Liber all variously sook it up about playing forward OR basically just sucked at playing forward...
They will have to rotate to HF as various points, while Macrae will have to rotate to the wing at times - he says about 18 words a year so he can sook in silence. Libba and Dunkley would be too slow for wing rotations IMO. I expect we play Martin for a dozen games this year (unless he miraculously becomes durable again at age 34) and fans would riot if Dunkley is thrown into the ruck again so there's half of that problem solved.

I don't think Libba can play 22 rounds with 22 quarters as an inside mid anyway - he'll be managed next year. Assuming nobody else cops an injury, which is unlikely with reduced rotations next year.

It's not Libba or Macrae or Smith who would be most impacted by Treloar's arrival - it's Lipinski/Roarke Smith/Hayes and perhaps Richards.

[1eyedog]

Treloar could easily play 80% forward and be our best forward.

[Mofra]

Treloar could easily play 80% forward and be our best forward.
We're more likely to see Bont forward

[1eyedog]

We're more likely to see Bont forward

Treloar could be really damaging as a medium down there though playing the Lloyd / Dale role.

[Topdog]

If you want to convince me Treloar is a good player, you don't need to do that. If you want to convince me he can play as a genuine 4-q outside mid then these highlights don't do it. .

Yep really only the last highlight could show an outside mid hope.

Great highlights and I love his confidence in front of goal which none of our mids have.

[soupman]

Treloar could easily play 80% forward and be our best forward.

Based on?

Collingwood, who also have a shitload of good mids, played Treloar exclusively as a mid. He may very well become our best forward but that would be because we only have two good forwards atm (Naughton and Wallis).

I'm more than happy to bring in fringe guys from other sides and see if they excel in a different role (Crozier being a great example), but I think if you bring in a guy who is so good in his position that you are paying him $600K+ and then try and see if he can justify that wage in a position he hasn't ever really played then you are gonna have a bad time.

[Bulldog4life]

They will have to rotate to HF as various points, while Macrae will have to rotate to the wing at times - he says about 18 words a year so he can sook in silence. Libba and Dunkley would be too slow for wing rotations IMO. I expect we play Martin for a dozen games this year (unless he miraculously becomes durable again at age 34) and fans would riot if Dunkley is thrown into the ruck again so there's half of that problem solved.

I don't think Libba can play 22 rounds with 22 quarters as an inside mid anyway - he'll be managed next year. Assuming nobody else cops an injury, which is unlikely with reduced rotations next year.

It's not Libba or Macrae or Smith who would be most impacted by Treloar's arrival - it's Lipinski/Roarke Smith/Hayes and perhaps Richards.

He might just do this. His first game EVER was when he was 19. Should think he might have some decent footy left in him. This year he was also cruelled by injury.

[1eyedog]

Based on?

Collingwood, who also have a shitload of good mids, played Treloar exclusively as a mid. He may very well become our best forward but that would be because we only have two good forwards atm (Naughton and Wallis).

I'm more than happy to bring in fringe guys from other sides and see if they excel in a different role (Crozier being a great example), but I think if you bring in a guy who is so good in his position that you are paying him $600K+ and then try and see if he can justify that wage in a position he hasn't ever really played then you are gonna have a bad time.

He looks very sharp around goals at stoppages.

[mjp]

...and fans would riot if Dunkley is thrown into the ruck again...

Taking the temperature of the room, I think the prevailing sentiment of fans right now is that Dunkley can suck it and play where he is told.

I might be wrong on this but it seems to me Dunks has moved from a favorite player who would be a super-star if the coach played him in the right spot to someone who has to earn his stripes and win back the trust and respect of the group. People are actively joking that with the recruitment of Martin AND the retention of Dunks our ruck-stocks have never been better.

[Bulldog4life]

Players forgive and forget any issues these days their fellow teammates had. Personally I am happy to see Dunks back and spending more time in the guts.

[Mofra]

Taking the temperature of the room, I think the prevailing sentiment of fans right now is that Dunkley can suck it and play where he is told.

I might be wrong on this but it seems to me Dunks has moved from a favorite player who would be a super-star if the coach played him in the right spot to someone who has to earn his stripes and win back the trust and respect of the group. People are actively joking that with the recruitment of Martin AND the retention of Dunks our ruck-stocks have never been better.
The truth is, Dunkley is an injury to Libba away from playing his favoured position for most of the time he's on the ground, and Libba will turn 29 next year and has knees made of crepe paper.

If history is a guide, this wasn't Libba reverting to mean - this was an outlier of the post two-ACL Libba. I'm not confident Dunkley doesn't ask for a trade at the end of 2021 but I think he'll spend more minutes in the middle this year (and beyond if he stays).

[EasternWest]

Taking the temperature of the room, I think the prevailing sentiment of fans right now is that Dunkley can suck it and play where he is told.

I might be wrong on this but it seems to me Dunks has moved from a favorite player who would be a super-star if the coach played him in the right spot to someone who has to earn his stripes and win back the trust and respect of the group. People are actively joking that with the recruitment of Martin AND the retention of Dunks our ruck-stocks have never been better.

I can't speak for others but I don't think that at all.

[Twodogs]

I can't speak for others but I don't think that at all.

Me either. He's part of the club, part of the team. We long as he brings it next year I don't care what's happened in the past.

[comrade]

I don’t want Dunkley anywhere near the ruck because it’s stupid, but I also resent the fact that he used it as an excuse to try and score himself a payday at that ****hole of a club.

[FrediKanoute]

I can't speak for others but I don't think that at all.

Its my sentiment, well the suck it part. Dunk's plays where the team needs him. That may be in the middle, but that may be up forward. It shouldn't be in the ruck.

My sentiment for this is pretty simple, its one thing to express a desire for more midfield time and to boldly state that that is where you want to play. Its completely different to a) orchestrate a move to a rival organisation; and b) sit silent whilst your current organisation is trashed by people who you surround yourself with.

If I had to be honest if we weren't half a chance to really compete, I would be putting more time into Lippa and West than giving Dunks what he wants to have him leave in 2 years time.

[Smads57]

An upgrade in terms of, overall or just the goal kicking?
Goal kicking - in the highlights package Treloar seemed comfortable shooting for goal. Have felt Macrae (in particular) tends to be happier to pass the ball off versus having a shot himself.

[jeemak]

Goal kicking - in the highlights package Treloar seemed comfortable shooting for goal. Have felt Macrae (in particular) tends to be happier to pass the ball off versus having a shot himself.

It's an interesting one with Jack because a lot of the time when he gets it on the boot for goal he kicks truly.

To me that aspect of his game is going to be the biggest knock on his legacy. He deserves a B&F with us, he was almost best on in a grand final, and he kicked a sealer in the most important game in the clubs history and that's without mentioning his two AAs to date. If he pulls the trigger more often and scores more he'll be an absolute legend of the game.

[The Underdog]

It's an interesting one with Jack because a lot of the time when he gets it on the boot for goal he kicks truly.

To me that aspect of his game is going to be the biggest knock on his legacy. He deserves a B&F with us, he was almost best on in a grand final, and he kicked a sealer in the most important game in the clubs history and that's without mentioning his two AAs to date. If he pulls the trigger more often and scores more he'll be an absolute legend of the game.

It’s one of the great mysteries of Macrae. When he has to kick a goal, he seems pretty comfortable and reliable, but man it sure is his last resort. Not sure I’ve seen too many mids as reluctant to shoot at goal as he is.

[mjp]

It’s one of the great mysteries of Macrae. When he has to kick a goal, he seems pretty comfortable and reliable, but man it sure is his last resort. Not sure I’ve seen too many mids as reluctant to shoot at goal as he is.

He's not really a good shot for goal and goes a touch better than 50-50 for his career.

Reality is, the kids who kick goals in the u8's kick goals in the u14's. Those who kick 'em in the u14's kick 'em in the u18's. And those who kick 'em in the 18's tend to kick them in the AFL. I just think expecting him to add a goal a week to his game at age 25 is folly. He is a high possession winning inside mid who busts his gut in terms of running (forward and back), doesn't really play on a man and rarely (once every 5x games) kicks a goal. That's who he is...and he is an excellent player.