Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

[mjp]

I know that everyone is excited about the additions to our list but I continue to battle with it.

1/. Treloar: We have recruited an excellent player...but one who simply does not fill a need. To me, he is more of what we already have...for FIVE YEARS. I worry about the impact on Bailey Smith, on Rhylee West...on our other young mids who really should be the ones putting us over the top. We already have a group that doesn't defend well in transition - I think Treloar is better than his harshest critics suggest (I mean, he knows WHO his opponent is even if he doesn't know exactly WHERE he is) but anyone who has watched our side in the past two seasons will know that we can be heavily scored against in transition and how exactly does Treloar help that? We are weak in outside mids...he doesn't play that role (and it is a genuine position with specific skills and responsibilities that take time to learn and understand...We are weak with regards hard-running, competitive hhf's and he doesn't really do that either...

Yes - I get it that he will be 'a rotator' but for us to get value from him he really needs to be spending the vast majority of his time inside the centre square - ditto Bont, Macrae, Liber, Dunks, Smith...only 3 at a time so how does this work??? Rotations are really dependent on the players and our mids are not exactly known (in recent seasons) for their selfless approach to the game...I wonder (and the recent "I wanna go to Essendon" saga with Dunks supports this) whether a couple of them would rather have 40 touches and lose than 18 touches and win. I worry Treloar also has this tendency and I worry his arrival at the club does nothing to address our areas of need.

2/. Martin: Where does he play? Ruck? If so, where does English play? I simply don't get it because to me this is simple maths - we cannot have two players in the side to fill ONE position. If we needed a bigger, stronger body, well, JT could have filled the bill of support player in 2020 (or 2019 for that matter)...but was never picked. You would have though St Kilda would have been the PERFECT opponent for him - two ruckman and they rotated in the Saints f50...and JT is an experienced AFL defender...but STILL we didn't pick him...why will we pick Martin??? I have heard the argument that we got him mostly to work with English at training and lift his level through consistent competition...I don't see it. There isn't much competitive work at training in any case, and with a drastically shortened pre-season...when will this happen? Or are we planning on playing English forward or back ahead of Bruce (goodness knows what his salary is) and Schache...and then using HIM as the support ruckman? Well...I don't know much but I am pretty confident you don't get better at playing in the ruck by standing inside forward 50m and waiting for the ball to be kicked in...

I know, I know. We WON the trade period and Sam Power is a genius and the world is a much better place, but I still maintain the players we need in our side right now are:

1/. Clay Smith - Aggressive, team first forward.
2/. Liam Picken - Aggressive, team first forward who could play mid if required.
3/. Matt Boyd - Aggressive, team first defender who understands how to play mid and can fill in as necessary.
4/. Dale Morris - Aggressive, team first defender able to play on smalls and talls.

If that is simplistic, well, it is intended to be so - but we need GRUNT. I guess in many ways Martin is 'all grunt'...but that means English goes forward and well, all grunt does not really spring to mind when I think of English as a forward. If you want to tell me Duryea can fill the Boyd role I am listening...but the others???

Treloar is an excellent player...Martin has been an excellent player. I just don't know if they are what we need right now in order to step forward as a footy side. I really, really wish I could figure this out.

[Sedat]

Your point about some of our mids preferring 40 possessions and losing instead of 18 and winning reminds me very much of Cotchin. He was a perennial 35-40 possession 'do everything' mid for the first half of the decade up to 2016, and more often than not in losing causes. He reinvented his game significantly at the end of 2016, and while he was bloody lucky to play in the 2017 premiership (should have been suspended) he is the ultimate example for our inside mids to follow of a quality senior player sacrificing their game for the betterment of the team.

I also agree wholeheartedly about the gnawing chasm of heart and soul types who were aggressive, team first players. We sinply haven't replaced the 4 of them we lost. Duryea is definitely one (I was gobsmacked by the ease with which some thought he could be delisted) and Libba is clearly one of theses types albeit in our midfield rotations. We definitely need more uncompromising team-first pricks up forward in the Picken and Clay Smith vein - you don't know what you've until it is gone.

I'm worried that Stefan Martin is cooked, but if 2020 is an aberration and he can recapture his excellent form prior to that, I have no problem with him being our no. 1 ruck and English playing primarily forward and only pinch-hitting in ruck. English is not, and I personally have doubts whether he ever will be, a no. 1 ruck. If English plays forward, it makes Naughts so much more dangerous. It also leaves Bruce without a position as key forward, so he can either play at Footscray or train all summer with the defensive crew - Liam Jones turned his career around so perhaps Bruce can as well. I would much rather lose big on Bruce in the short term as a (thus far) dud investment and invest heavily in Naughts and English as a devastating key forward duo who compliment each other with different skill sets.

[boydogs]

Martin as #1 ruck and English as 7th defender?

Bailey Smith & Rhylee West might become our hard nosed forwards

[jeemak]

I'd be utterly shocked if we weren't trying to improve our list in other ways beyond securing Martin and Treloar (and agree on the needs identified by the OP), though without being privy to the machinations of trade week, who we targeted and at what price one can only speculate.

Over the years though I've firmed in the belief that if you can't completely satisfy specific needs then your next best option is to improve upon what you've got and I think we've done that.

English will improve as a first ruck over time, even when playing second ruck to Martin. Our midfield is more congested on paper but players get injured and can adapt to new circumstances or positional requirements (see Sedat's post).

I kind of get the concern but I guess we'll just have to figure out how best manage things. It's not like getting these guys in is going to cause a massive shuffling of players that results in clear best 22 positional players missing out on games whilst we try and shoehorn them in.

[GVGjr]

The addition of Treloar just proves that you can add very good players to the list but perhaps you aren't necessarily improving the list
We've effectively added a significant amount of depth to a position we were already deep in and it doesn't address the lack of a defensive minded midfielder. Perhaps that is Dunkley's role now
The challenge for the club is to make all these pieces fit into a productive midfield

To me Martin is far easier to explain, he allows for us to select English on form rather than being an automatic selection. We will play both of them on occasions but I don't expect that to be a lot
English and Sweet will get plenty of competition from Martin at training and will be able to learn from him. A decent investment in the development of both ruckman

Last year we talked up how we would play 3 tall forwards and never went close to doing that. Hannan gives the MC the opportunity to play 2 tall forwards with him being the pseudo 3rd tall

All 3 players were not ideal fits for us so it's going to be interesting to see how we manage this. If we get it right it could pay a huge dividend

[bornadog]

Some interesting points raised in the OP and worth discussing.

Treloar

Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime? I am not counting the VFL days when for example we went to WA and picked up 10 players including Beasley, Purser and these guys, but rather an AFL player from the current playing list. Most of the players we have recruited were in their last years of playing, well past their best, eg Aker, Hall, etc where we only got a couple of seasons out of them.

To pickup a Treloar is a real coup and I will take it any time. He may not be what we 100% needed but he will lift the midfield group. Imagine the Bont and Treloar in the middle together, or Macrae and Treloar, while the Bont takes a rest. I don't care that we have other mids, let them all compete for a spot and the best man wins. Yeah, sounds like depth, but there have been times when our mids lost the game for us because they couldn't get their hands on the ball eg GWS final, and Pies first round this year - the two worse games we have played in the last two seasons.

Martin

My issue with Martin is the unknown, ie is he cooked, and that is only based on his 2020 season. The other issue is that he can only play one role, ie ruck and bench.So did we make a mistake in recruiting Martin? The answer is probably no, but he is also not the ideal player we would have chosen if we had a choice. Bevo would have preferred to have an athletic ruckman that can change with English and also be useful around the ground as an extra mid. In the end I don't believe we had much choice here as there aren't too many ready made rucks available.

What was the alternative? We could have pulled the trigger and played English and Sweet, and recruited a developing ruckman, or we could have pushed someone like Schache to be a second ruck (he played Ruck/forward as a junior and has played the role for us in previous seasons). However these alternatives would not really solve our ruck situation as we most likely would have still lost the ruck duals as English and Sweet are still developing.

At least Martin can be a mentor, doesn't have to play every game, and can be kept fresh throughout the season, depending on the opposition. We have to learn from his experience.

In the end, we had very little alternative in the ruck, so Martin is a yes. As for Treloar, well he is icing on the cake, but hey, why would you knock it back.

[Mofra]

Martin is a one year stop-gap / playing coach that will afford Tim English two full pre-seasons before he takes the no 1 ruck mantle again. In terms of timing I can understand it.

I also think we had one genuine burst mid last year (Smith) and now we have two. I was concerned about bringing in a $900k mid for five years but someone who gives us a POD to other mids (bar Smith) who is genuine quality, for a future second, even at $600k pa is hard to argue with.
I actually like the Hannan acquisition as well. I don't think we're going anywhere with players who disappear when the pressure is on (Dale, Schache). Hannan is at the very least a small upgrade on these guys when we don't have the ball.

As for the tough mid-sized defender... Cordy. He's not Moz, but who is? Dane Rampe yes, but who else? The brief moments when Dylan Grimes is vertical?
Clay Smith & Liam Picken are the toughest to replace - Wally does his best but lacks Smith's pace at the ball carrier.

Guys like Picken - we have to rookie one. They don't come from the main draft.

I have questions about whether Cordy & Wood play in the same team, even with the height difference they seem to take the same defender. Wood obviously the far better interceptor but Cordy genuinely enjoys hurting people.

[Happy Days]

I think differently on Martin. He's gonna play every week and Tim is gonna play as a key forward with a license to roam. The Saints and Port have laid a great blueprint for this with Marshall and Ladhams, and English has it in him to be better than both of them the less emphasis is placed on him to do actual ruckwork. I'm in the Martin is washed camp but I just can't see the sense in recruiting a guy to not play, particularly in a clear position of need. English is absolutley not a liability around the ground, is pretty quick and has excellent skills below his knees - ergo, none of the stuff that would make this not work.

Re Treloar, Mike is obviously right in that he's an outstanding player who's maybe the best first receiver in the game but has only demonstrated a capacity to play as a centre square player. But - we don't need one of those, and surely this was a consideration before we recruited him. We do need outside players, and while I appreciate that it's a different position that takes time to learn (Macrae in Hunter's absence being a perfect example of that), how long is long enough? From day one of pre-season to round one? He hasn't shown he can but he hasn't shown he can't either.

[The bulldog tragician]

Were we that great in centre square clearances last year? it might have been because of the ruck situation but I thought we were often thrashed in clearances (cue someone to actually find the data, but even so, clearances where we got really clean possession and then quality entry into fwd line seemed lacking).

But I really think our weak point is exactly what mjp has said. Those four with a brutal mindset unafraid to use their bodies as battering rams and had an insane appetite for the ball have not even come close to being replaced. They are what is needed to win finals, and I'm not sure who we have that can even grow into such a role.

[soupman]

I think differently on Martin. He's gonna play every week and Tim is gonna play as a key forward with a license to roam. The Saints and Port have laid a great blueprint for this with Marshall and Ladhams, and English has it in him to be better than both of them the less emphasis is placed on him to do actual ruckwork. I'm in the Martin is washed camp but I just can't see the sense in recruiting a guy to not play, particularly in a clear position of need. English is absolutley not a liability around the ground, is pretty quick and has excellent skills below his knees - ergo, none of the stuff that would make this not work.

This has been my thoughts on the matter as well.

English is great at a lot of things, ruckwork not being one of them. I definitely think this is worth a go, and Martin being 34 gives us half a season to try it properly without having committed to it long term should it not work. English has the potential to be the perfect second ruck, I do have queries on his aggression as a forward still but he does seem to find the ball naturally in general play (isn't reliant on getting his touches at the coalface like say Ben Hudson) and I like the idea of him providing us with an aerial option where we need it.

On Treloar I was pretty strong on not wanting him pre trade and while the trade itself is a fantastic piece of work i am sceptical if he does improve the side. I think he beefs up the one part of our side that doesn't need more beef, and is yet another pure mid that means the guys that are ok elsewhere (Bont, Dunkley and Smith) will spend even more time in their secondary not as good position. I also suspect that we had about a $600K size hole in our salary cap going forward which we have opted to fill with Treloar, and the opportunity cost of that is that we now cannot use that on a position we actually need like a key defender or small forward unless we lose someone (like say Dunkley).

I've also had reservations that our midfield performance has not been greater than the sum of all parts for a while now, I am not sure Treloar helps that although as a burst mid he atleast offers us something slightly different.

On the plus side one issue that continually costs us games is that when Bont goes forward for a quarter we capitulate. Maybe Treloar helps carry our midfield in his absence in which case he would make a meaningful difference.

[Axe Man]

Were we that great in centre square clearances last year? it might have been because of the ruck situation but I thought we were often thrashed in clearances (cue someone to actually find the data, but even so, clearances where we got really clean possession and then quality entry into fwd line seemed lacking).

But I really think our weak point is exactly what mjp has said. Those four with a brutal mindset unafraid to use their bodies as battering rams and had an insane appetite for the ball have not even come close to being replaced. They are what is needed to win finals, and I'm not sure who we have that can even grow into such a role.

We were around middle of the road for both centre clearances and stoppage clearances.

Richmond are well known to be near last in the league for clearance numbers. Goes to show clearances aren't everything.

[Bulldog4life]

Martin as #1 ruck and English as 7th defender?

Bailey Smith & Rhylee West might become our hard nosed forwards

Yes I can see Martin playing the main ruck role and English showing his best work as a extra man in defence as well as up forward. I can quite easily imagine Martin and English on the field together. Who knows Tim might be part of the mid field rotations if a few players tire. He can be elite around the ground.

[Ozza]

I just can't see how this would be the 'wrong' thing.

We gave up very little to get these players in - and have added significantly to the overall talent of the list.

Martin was available and cheap to pick up - and if we went through next year with English experiencing the same issues against the really mature, top line ruckman - we'd all be screaming about why we didn't take the opportunity to bring in an experienced ruck to bridge this period where English is still developing physically.

As for Treloar, in my view you can never bat too deep in the midfield, and he is a proven top level performer. Its up to the mids and their coaches to ensure that we have the right mix of attack and defence - but with the level of talent in our midfield, the opposition will have a lot to think about.

I also don't think we can assume Tom Libba is going to be able to get through next year in the same way he did this season. Tom benefitted from the delayed restart to the season and to shorter quarters and a shorter season. I don't think we can bank on Libba playing 22 games - I really think that 15-16 is realistic for him. Treloar will be inside mid - and may play some high half forward. But most of our mids are versatile anyway. Macrae is proven as a wingman as well as inside mid. Bont and Dunks obviously do both. Bailey Smith is probably the one who might need to be tooled up a bit to spend time out of the inside mid.

I also think the club benefits from having a few older heads. We saw many examples during the year where we had down periods in games and lacked some experience and composure in getting it back under control.

In a period where the soft cap has been reduced significantly, having Martin impart his experience will be valuable. Treloar joins what is still a pretty young side and youngish midfield - is incredibly consistent, and is still at the top of his game.

[Prince Imperial]

Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime?


It was a bit before my time, but Adrian Gallagher probably fits this bill. We obtained him from Carlton in 1973 as a 26 year old and he was good enough to be later named in their team of the century.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Adrian_Gallagher.html

[Mofra]

We were around middle of the road for both centre clearances and stoppage clearances.

Richmond are well known to be near last in the league for clearance numbers. Goes to show clearances aren't everything.
We were absolutely pillaged at throw-in clearances last year, but surprisingly ok at centre clearances.

It will be interesting to see if we ask Martin to play the old Scott Wynd type role that English played well in 2020 or more of a traditional ruck role. Would be a real blast from the past if English was our Galaxy Coleman who took F50 ruck contests and Martin remained a tall sweeper.

[comrade]

Im not smart enough to debate the pros and cons but what I do know is our midfield cohort wasn’t getting it done when it mattered (ruck included) so I can’t see the downside of adding some new personnel and structuring up differently (I’m choosing to believe we will play Martin and English together until proven otherwise).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I get the uncertainty but I think the three posts above sum it up well too.

We're also not privy to what our plan is for 2021 but I suspect we'll see changes based on the club's messaging post season. It finally sounds like we're losing patience to get better quickly, which is the (good) impression I get. Perhaps this means Bont plays more time forward? Yes he is our best mid, but that hasn't helped us in finals in recent years. Maybe his hip isn't as great as we'd like it to be? I think there's certainly merit in him playing more forward. Both Martin and Dangerfield have arguably done their best work in the forward half of the ground, no reason why Bont can't too - the game has started to shift for some of the premier mids.

Does Treloar improve us defensively? No, but he improves us offensively. If he improves us offensively, well, by default he improves us defensively. I've said for a while our mid group has been overrated in the sense that in big games they've been really, really poor. Too often they've been belted off the park. While I agree Treloar isn't an outside player, his style improves us significantly - Smith is the only player of comparison who can win the ball and burst from stoppage. Smith has shown good signs at it, but he's nowhere near Treloar in this area YET.

When I think of a few recent games, our mids have looked pedestrian around clearances/stoppages when they're getting belted. A lot of that is their defensive mindset, a lot of it is also their 'sameness' and lack of pace/ability to spread and create space. How often did we handball the footy around in a circle and/or quick kick it 20-30m to nothing? I think Treloar's natural game and burst around stoppages will improve this. He does blast a little but HIS movement will create movement UP the ground. At present, the only time this happens is when Smith gets it or if JJ gets it.

As much as we (the fans) would like more grunt in a Boyd/Morris type, it's difficult to compare '16 to now. By that, I mean that we have strengths now that we didn't back then and vice versa. 16 is now proven, what we have now needs a lot of work but I think the ingredients of success are present. A Morris type would be handy though!

Martin I don't see being a problem if he's contributing. In the past we've had the likes of Richards, Hayes, Roarke etc. routinely pick up sub 10 possessions and offer nothing, so having adequate ruck support is a no brainer for mine. I think English can be dangerous as a ruck/resting forward, Martin I'd imagine would predominately ruck and go to the bench.

All in all, I think we could do with a quick small forward and a good key defender/Morris - the rest that's on the list we can make work.

[Twodogs]

Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime?.

Over the history of the club I can think of 4 and then then I'm reaching back into the VFA days.

1. Con McCarthy. 1921. We recruited him from Collingwood where he had been club captain, a premiership player and had captained Victoria all in the 2 year period we signed him. He as in his prime when he came across.

2. Alec Eason. 1922. Ex Geelong. Was a star and also in his prime when we made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Even though he was 30 when he came over we made him the highest paid player in the game (in either VFL or the VFA) at 12 pounds per game. He played in 2 VFA premierships with us but was banned from playing in the VFL (for crossing competitions without a clearance) so retired in 1925 when we were accepted into the VFL. Eason is in both Geelong's Hall of Fame and Team of the Century.


3. Bill Cubbins. Again he was 30 when we recruited him as captain coach in 1931 but he was St Kilda's captain at the time and still playing good footy.

As the fourth you could mount an argument for Harvey Stevens. He was mysteriously left out of Collingwood's 1952 finals team so we swooped and signed him. He won the B&F in 1953 and played a key role in our 1954 premiership team. He was in his prime when he came to us and I'm sure that if Collingwood could have their time over they would have pulled out all the stops to keep him.

But we haven't been a destination club for more than 50+ years.

[mjp]

Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime?

Aker.

Recruited after being run out of Bris-Vegas town due to issues with the coach and senior team-mates.
Later run out of Footscray town due to issues with the coach and senior team-mates.

I'm not saying there are parallels, but...

[comrade]

Aker.

Recruited after being run out of Bris-Vegas town due to issues with the coach and senior team-mates.
Later run out of Footscray town due to issues with the coach and senior team-mates.

I'm not saying there are parallels, but...

Aker was nowhere near his prime but I get your point.

[mjp]

Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime?

Rawlings.

But I'm not sure you could say we 'recruited' him.

What about 'manipulated the system' to force a player who wanted to play somewhere else (North) to play for us. One glorious debut game where he marked everything in the air (but unfortunately then showed with his goal-kicking exactly WHY he had been a defender at Hawthorn!) was followed by mediocrity and misery and an eventual transfer...to North!

[mjp]

Aker was nowhere near his prime but I get your point.

Ummm - I reckon Aker was 29. He was 100% in his prime and played some breath-taking footy for us. Unfortunately Aker and the LT model were not sympatico and 'handstand-gate' might not have been the end but it certainly was the end of the beginning...

[mjp]

Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime?

And then we move on:

Brad Hardie
Andrew Purser
Shorty Daniels
Tony McGuinness
Simon Beasley
Jimmy Sewell

I'm trying to think who else.

Phil Krakouer was in the twilight but Nicky Winmar was still going strong.
Paul Hudson.
Jose Romero
Tony Liberatore (though you could say he only 'became' elite after joining us)
Richard Osborne
...

[Grantysghost]

And then we move on:

Brad Hardie
Andrew Purser
Shorty Daniels
Tony McGuinness
Simon Beasley
Jimmy Sewell

I'm trying to think who else.

Phil Krakouer was in the twilight but Nicky Winmar was still going strong.
Paul Hudson.
Jose Romero
Tony Liberatore (though you could say he only 'became' elite after joining us)
Richard Osborne
...

Did we get Ben Hudson's best years. My memory says yes but I think he did well at the Crows for a brief while too.

Edit : Reckon we did. Was 29-32 years of age with us probably close to prime ruck years.



Years

Club
Games (Goals)


2004–2007
Adelaide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_Football_Club)
55 (6)


2008–2011
Western Bulldogs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Bulldogs)
88 (9)


2012
Brisbane Lions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane_Lions)
18 (3)


2013–2014
Collingwood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collingwood_Football_Club)
7 (1)

[GVGjr]

Aker.

Recruited after being run out of Bris-Vegas town due to issues with the coach and senior team-mates.
Later run out of Footscray town due to issues with the coach and senior team-mates.

I'm not saying there are parallels, but...

Aker had played his best football before he arrived at the Kennel so perhaps a year or two past his prime as BAD raised.
Same with Hall

[w3design]

Treloar definitely adds something different to the midfield mix. As I said in a previous post, he is not an inside mid in the style of Libba or McCrae. I'd describe him as much more if a predator. His most elite trait is his capacity to choose his moment and pluck the ball out of congestion and break away with speed. He's not the sort of player that regularly feeds the ball out from under a pack. He's more reactive than that. I think he'd do well resting forward too as his capacity to read the congested ball and find space seem to be traits that a modern AFL forward line could do with. As for Martin, I like him as insurance and as a bit of protection for English. English is still a stick of a lad. He got smashed by Grundy in the first game of 2020. If he's going to be dogs first ruck for the next few years he needs some protection from the big brutes. Otherwise his body and his confidence might be too badly beaten.

[Bulldog4life]

Another 5 players who were terrific for their former clubs and came to us in their prime.

Stuart Magee made his debut for South Melbourne in 1962. By 1966 he was representing Victoria at interstate football.He was signed up by Footscray and became captain of the club during the 1970 season.

Greg Parke (born 18 April 1948) is a former Australian rules footballer who played for Melbourne, Footscray and Fitzroy in the Victorian Football League (VFL).
Parke made his VFL debut in 1968 with Melbourne and finished the season with more Brownlow Medal votes than any other Melbourne player. He played most of his football at centre half forward and in 1970 took 238 marks, the most in the league that season. He holds the AFL record for most marks in a game. His best year in front of goal came in 1972 when he topped Melbourne's goalkicking with 63 goals. In 1974 he crossed to Footscray where he played two seasons before finishing his career with one-year stints at Norwood in the South Australian National Football League and Fitzroy.

Terry Wallace was Hawthorn's centreman from the late 1970s through the 1980s. Recruited from VFA club Camberwell, he was a member of Hawthorn's 1978 premiership side in what was his debut season. Nicknamed 'Plough' for his knack of crashing through packs, Wallace was Hawthorn's best and fairest winner in 1981 and 1983, the latter in another premiership year. He played in one further premiership side at Hawthorn in 1986. Often polling well in the Brownlow Medal counts, Wallace finished equal third in 1982 and equal sixth in 1983.
After a contractual dispute with Hawthorn, Wallace received a clearance to Richmond but struggled in his only season with the club, eventually ending the year prematurely with a back injury. He finished his playing career with four seasons at Footscray which yielded back to back Charles Sutton Medals in 1988 and 1989.

Jose Michael Romero (born 1 August 1971 in Chile), is a former Australian rules footballer.
Romero, who was recruited from Jacana, played in the VFL/AFL for both the North Melbourne FC and Western Bulldogs.
Debuting in 1987 with the Kangaroos, Romero played 109 games for the club before moving to the Western Bulldogs, debuting in 1995.
Injury meant that the 1996 Charles Sutton Medallist (the Best and Fairest Award for the Bulldogs) was forced to retire during the 2001 season.[3] Romero served a stint as the club runner for the Bulldogs, as well as previously being part of the club's football department and serving as a member of the board.

In 1990,Paul Hudson followed in his father Peter's footsteps and joined Hawthorn, for which he would play until the end of the 1996 season. A half forward, in his seven seasons at the club, he kicked 264 goals, averaging nearly 38 goals a year. In 1991, just his second year of AFL football, he finished fifth in the Brownlow Medal and kicked a couple of goals in their grand final victory. In the 1992 pre-season competition, he won the first ever Michael Tuck Medal for his performance in the grand final. He was traded to the Western Bulldogs for the 1997 season and he earned All-Australian selection in 1998.

[The bulldog tragician]

And then we move on:

Brad Hardie
Andrew Purser
Shorty Daniels
Tony McGuinness
Simon Beasley
Jimmy Sewell

I'm trying to think who else.

Phil Krakouer was in the twilight but Nicky Winmar was still going strong.
Paul Hudson.
Jose Romero
Tony Liberatore (though you could say he only 'became' elite after joining us)
Richard Osborne
...

This is starting to be like in 'Life of Brian'...what have the Romans ever done for us?!

[Grantysghost]

This is starting to be like in 'Life of Brian'...what have the Romans ever done for us?!

Don't mention the war...I mean John Cleese! :cool:

[Twodogs]

And then we move on:

Brad Hardie
Andrew Purser
Shorty Daniels
Tony McGuinness
Simon Beasley
Jimmy Sewell

I'm trying to think who else.

Phil Krakouer was in the twilight but Nicky Winmar was still going strong.
Paul Hudson.
Jose Romero
Tony Liberatore (though you could say he only 'became' elite after joining us)
Richard Osborne
...

Bernard Toohey. Glenn Coleman had retired but played some great footy with us. Ian Hampshire played 100 games with Geelong and 100 games with us

If you're going with interstaters we should include Murray Rance, Ray Huppatz and Richard Cousins too. Maybe Ryan Hargrave's dad, Steve? He was a huge recruiting coup for us. He was WA's SOO captain when he came over but ended up stepping into one of the holes where the goalposts go while doing laps during preseason and wrecking his knee.

Libba hadn't played a senior game with North he doesn't make the qualification criteria of being an established star. But if he did you would have to include Peter Foster.

A few ful forwards.

Alan Rait from Tasmania. He kicked 152 goals the year before he joined us and kicked 59 goals in his only full season with us before being injured.

Bill Wood from NSW. Kicked 294 goals in 115 games, including 9 on debut v Collingwood in 1944. Also kicked 22 goals in a game for North Sydney during the war which was a senior record for many years.

Jack Hutchinson from Richmond joined us in 1908 after setting the VFA record for a single season with 67 goals, then broke the record in his first season with us in 1909 with 68. Hutchinson kicked 16 goals in a game v North in 1908 and still holds the record for the most goals in a game for us.

And George Bayliss also from Richmond in 1924. Won the VFL goalkicking with 63 in 1920 then joined us in the VFA in 1924. He played in our last VFA year and our first VFL year but didn't really set the world on fire.

[Twodogs]

Dare I say Robbert Klomp? A dual premiership player who was 28 when he came over from Carlton. He did seem to promptly lose any talent he had the moment he walked through the door though.

Greg Towns. Only 26 when he transferred from Carlton and played a few good games for us.

Bruce Duperouzel. He was done at St Kilda but played some great footy for us coming off the bench when we needed an impact.

Mark Kellett played good footy for us after coming from St Kilda.

[FrediKanoute]

1/. Clay Smith - Aggressive, team first forward.
2/. Liam Picken - Aggressive, team first forward who could play mid if required.
3/. Matt Boyd - Aggressive, team first defender who understands how to play mid and can fill in as necessary.
4/. Dale Morris - Aggressive, team first defender able to play on smalls and talls.



Not saying I disagree with you MJP, but if the above four are the type we needed, who would you have targeted from opposition clubs? The thing about all of these guys, none of them would probably have been given a chance at other clubs. Certainly none would have endured as long as they did. They were Bulldogs players. Uniquely Bulldog players. To me these are guys you grow.

I'd argue that West is potentially a Clay Smith with his hardness at the ball and around the clinches; I'd suggest that Wallis/McLean could fill the Picken role (McLean more so if he comes back from his knee). You have said that Doc is the Matt Boyd clone, but possible Crozier as well. I just don't think you can go out and recruit guys like this.

[Mofra]

Not saying I disagree with you MJP, but if the above four are the type we needed, who would you have targeted from opposition clubs? The thing about all of these guys, none of them would probably have been given a chance at other clubs. Certainly none would have endured as long as they did. They were Bulldogs players. Uniquely Bulldog players. To me these are guys you grow.

I'd argue that West is potentially a Clay Smith with his hardness at the ball and around the clinches; I'd suggest that Wallis/McLean could fill the Picken role (McLean more so if he comes back from his knee). You have said that Doc is the Matt Boyd clone, but possible Crozier as well. I just don't think you can go out and recruit guys like this.
Three of those guys a rookies, and the one who isn't did 3 ACLs.
I don't think guys like that are generally found int he draft. The only rookie that wasn't passed over multiple times (Boyd) was taken from Frankston VFL seconds.

It's why we need to take a couple of rookies every year. You just don't find those obsessed scrappers in the main draft as much as you do in the rookie draft. The only one I can think of taken in the main draft was a late 50s pick (Cross).

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Three of those guys a rookies, and the one who isn't did 3 ACLs.
I don't think guys like that are generally found int he draft. The only rookie that wasn't passed over multiple times (Boyd) was taken from Frankston VFL seconds.

It's why we need to take a couple of rookies every year. You just don't find those obsessed scrappers in the main draft as much as you do in the rookie draft. The only one I can think of taken in the main draft was a late 50s pick (Cross).

Ollie Wines and Clay Smith we’re both taken high in the draft. Macrae gives his all too.

I do see what you’re saying though. Generally the guys with a never say die attitude are that way because they have less natural skills and need other qualities to make it.

[Jeanette54]

I remember Ken Greenwood, came over from Carlton, and played some great games for us.

Ken Greenwood (born 15 December 1941) is a former Australian rules footballer who played for Carlton and Footscray in the Victorian Football League (VFL).

A ruckman, Greenwood was recruited from South Bendigo and was an understudy to John Nicholls during his time at Carlton. In just his eighth league game, Greenwood appeared in the 1962 VFL Grand Final, which Carlton lost. He never established a regular place in the team until 1964 but even then received limited game time due to Nicholls.

Greenwood, after trying to get a clearance to Melbourne, was given to Footscray in order to keep Ian Robertson, who was part of Footscray's recruitment zone, at Carlton. In 1967, his first season, Greenwood was runner up in the 'Best and Fairest' to John Jillard by one vote. His VFL career ended in 1972 when he badly injured his knee and he spent the 1973 season as captain-coach of Preston.

[Mofra]

Ollie Wines and Clay Smith we’re both taken high in the draft. Macrae gives his all too.

I do see what you’re saying though. Generally the guys with a never say die attitude are that way because they have less natural skills and need other qualities to make it.
Personally I certainly don't see Wines and Macrae as "scrappers" - both were touted as high picks during their draft year and don't have the same obvious flaws that some of more speculative kids have, especially those who start as taggers/inside mids.

Clay Smith was a very unique one. I don't think I've ever seen a kid with his 'crazy eyes'. There won't be another

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Personally I certainly don't see Wines and Macrae as "scrappers" - both were touted as high picks during their draft year and don't have the same obvious flaws that some of more speculative kids have, especially those who start as taggers/inside mids.

Clay Smith was a very unique one. I don't think I've ever seen a kid with his 'crazy eyes'. There won't be another

Such as shame he had rotten luck with his knees. He would have been an absolute weapon. Bull at a gate and knew where the goals were.

[comrade]

Such as shame he had rotten luck with his knees. He would have been an absolute weapon. Bull at a gate and knew where the goals were.

2016 was blessed in a lot of ways. Clay having a clear run at it for a brief time was one of those blessings.

[EasternWest]

Such as shame he had rotten luck with his knees. He would have been an absolute weapon. Bull at a gate and knew where the goals were.

And he was scary as hell.

I loved Clay Smith.

[mjp]

Not saying I disagree with you MJP, but if the above four are the type we needed, who would you have targeted from opposition clubs?

I think that is kind of my point (and I know I have derailed my own thread talking about recruits from other clubs from seasons past) but the guys we are 'looking for' - or to my mind *SHOULD* be looking for aren't the guys we have targeted.

I guess a positive person would say the guys we are looking for are:

West (Smith)
Garcia (Picken) - even Wally I guess.
Duryea (Boyd)
Gardner (Morris)

But I'm not so sure any of the guys I have nominated fit the bill...or if we have anyone else on the current list who does. The thing I keep bouncing back to is 'Team First' - these guys simply don't get recruited anymore...the 'BEST' players at their level get recruited. The player we all loved playing with from our own days - the guy who could and would play multiple spots, was uncompromising in his attack on the ball AND the body...that's a player we no longer see at AFL level.

I think Richmond have found a way to manipulate things and have built a quality team based around essentially 'role players'. Their mid-sized runners who play in pockets/flanks/wings simply run and work so hard...but they know a single drop off can and will cost them at selection and they might not get back. Baker is a good example - undrafted in his 18th year, transferred from WP to Subi and played primarily half forward...now is a half-back who is constantly INVOLVED in the game...he is always doing 'something'. My concern with our role players isn't their ability at their best - it is the complete lack of impact most weeks. I like Richards as a player - lots of great AFL attributes - but I can't imagine Picken going through a game and having 5x possessions and donuts on the rest of the stat sheet (maybe he did but I think you all know what I mean).

Where are these guys on our list? Who do you trust to throw in anywhere from deep back to deep forward to midfield tagger and just make a nuisance of themselves, playing around the ball, first to the footy, getting low in the contest and initiating contact, pulling their team-mates up from the bottom of the pack, pushing 80m to cover an opponent because there is no-one else to do it...Who do you trust?

We are too pretty and too nice - too much cream and not enough cake. I think adding Treloar is adding cream and I don't get how adding another possession winning mid to a group of possession winning mids helps in any way. Of course I hope it does (like crazy) but I look at the team on paper (I know, games are played on grass) and it feels unbalanced and unwieldy and difficult to manage on gameday. I don't like the idea of all these inside mids playing inside forward 50m...it makes us worse at 2x positions when guys like Macrae are out of the midfield (we aren't as good in the mids - he's a mid, and we aren't as good in the forwards - he's a mid).

[bornadog]

But I'm not so sure any of the guys I have nominated fit the bill...or if we have anyone else on the current list who does. The thing I keep bouncing back to is 'Team First' - these guys simply don't get recruited anymore...the 'BEST' players at their level get recruited. The player we all loved playing with from our own days - the guy who could and would play multiple spots, was uncompromising in his attack on the ball AND the body...that's a player we no longer see at AFL level.

I think to find these guys is difficult and also a risk for recruiters, as they don't know how they will turn out. Typically they are less skillful but have the determination and guts to play their role. Much easier to pick the skilful players and those starring in the under 18 or lower leagues.

In the past few seasons, what we should have been doing is turning over the rookie list until we found these guys. We have hung to some rookies too long.

[Twodogs]

I think that is kind of my point (and I know I have derailed my own thread talking about recruits from other clubs from seasons past) but the guys we are 'looking for' - or to my mind *SHOULD* be looking for aren't the guys we have targeted.

I guess a positive person would say the guys we are looking for are:

West (Smith)
Garcia (Picken) - even Wally I guess.
Duryea (Boyd)
Gardner (Morris)

But I'm not so sure any of the guys I have nominated fit the bill...or if we have anyone else on the current list who does. The thing I keep bouncing back to is 'Team First' - these guys simply don't get recruited anymore...the 'BEST' players at their level get recruited. The player we all loved playing with from our own days - the guy who could and would play multiple spots, was uncompromising in his attack on the ball AND the body...that's a player we no longer see at AFL level.

I think Richmond have found a way to manipulate things and have built a quality team based around essentially 'role players'. Their mid-sized runners who play in pockets/flanks/wings simply run and work so hard...but they know a single drop off can and will cost them at selection and they might not get back. Baker is a good example - undrafted in his 18th year, transferred from WP to Subi and played primarily half forward...now is a half-back who is constantly INVOLVED in the game...he is always doing 'something'. My concern with our role players isn't their ability at their best - it is the complete lack of impact most weeks. I like Richards as a player - lots of great AFL attributes - but I can't imagine Picken going through a game and having 5x possessions and donuts on the rest of the stat sheet (maybe he did but I think you all know what I mean).

Where are these guys on our list? Who do you trust to throw in anywhere from deep back to deep forward to midfield tagger and just make a nuisance of themselves, playing around the ball, first to the footy, getting low in the contest and initiating contact, pulling their team-mates up from the bottom of the pack, pushing 80m to cover an opponent because there is no-one else to do it...Who do you trust?

We are too pretty and too nice - too much cream and not enough cake. I think adding Treloar is adding cream and I don't get how adding another possession winning mid to a group of possession winning mids helps in any way. Of course I hope it does (like crazy) but I look at the team on paper (I know, games are played on grass) and it feels unbalanced and unwieldy and difficult to manage on gameday. I don't like the idea of all these inside mids playing inside forward 50m...it makes us worse at 2x positions when guys like Macrae are out of the midfield (we aren't as good in the mids - he's a mid, and we aren't as good in the forwards - he's a mid).

While I think that you can't have enough good footballers on your list (and Trealor is a very good footballer) you are right. We need a couple of guys who will always do whatever it takes to get the team over the line. The sort of guys who always struggled to get onto lists/into the team and didn't just cruise by on natural ability.

But they seem to be hard to find all of a sudden. Recruiters seem to take safe options these days. They no longer seem to be willing to take a risk on a a Dale Morris or a Matthew Boyd because AFL list spots are seen to be a huge investment cost.

[mjp]

While I think that you can't have enough good footballers on your list...

Obviously to argue the counter is folly...but what you need is a team full of really good players who don't actually realise they are really good players.

Once the disease of more takes hold (you can thank Pat Riley for that one) then you are in trouble. Again - I think Treloar is terrific and has been terribly treated by Collingwood...and we probably would have been really (REALLY) stupid to not roll the dice. BUT having just watched the Dunkley saga play out - primarily (I suspect) related to money but with a "you'll be the main man" undercurrent" - I just worry that we have a heap of players who want/need POSSESSION in order to be happy...who want/need to play 'A ROLE' in order to be happy...and we have just added one more pea to the pod.

I am obviously not an AFL coach but would have a LOT of trouble balancing minutes between so many inside mids. Of course, you just 'ride the hot hand' from week to week and that should be fine but players are not robots and most play best with certainty about their role...of course, they need to be able to 'go with it' and play where they are told, but that is easier to say than do...

[Twodogs]

Obviously to argue the counter is folly...but what you need is a team full of really good players who don't actually realise they are really good players.

Once the disease of more takes hold (you can thank Pat Riley for that one) then you are in trouble. Again - I think Treloar is terrific and has been terribly treated by Collingwood...and we probably would have been really (REALLY) stupid to not roll the dice. BUT having just watched the Dunkley saga play out - primarily (I suspect) related to money but with a "you'll be the main man" undercurrent" - I just worry that we have a heap of players who want/need POSSESSION in order to be happy...who want/need to play 'A ROLE' in order to be happy...and we have just added one more pea to the pod.

I am obviously not an AFL coach but would have a LOT of trouble balancing minutes between so many inside mids. Of course, you just 'ride the hot hand' from week to week and that should be fine but players are not robots and most play best with certainty about their role...of course, they need to be able to 'go with it' and play where they are told, but that is easier to say than do...

Regarding mids I think that we were exceptionally lucky, or well managed, not to have more miss with injuries this year. While we seem to have a surplus right now maybe we will be relieved we have them all by July/August because a couple will be missing due to injury or needing a break. Especially if we return to 22 games (or maybe more?) of 18-20 minute quarters.


Obviously to argue the counter is folly...but what you need is a team full of really good players who don't actually realise they are really good players.

Do players tend to get onto AFL lists if they don't think they are good players? Some might miss an element that leaves them short of being truly great but one of the things I've noticed about your average AFL listed player is they aren't lacking in confidence. What you need is players who understand the team dynamic (that a good team is better than the overall sum of its parts) and are willing to do what it takes and sacrifice their own game for the betterment of the team.

I know that he's not the flavour of the month but the guy I would offer as an example for this is Josh Bruce. There were a lot of games this year where he'd go for a run to exactly where the ball wasn't in order to take a couple of opponents out of the forward 50 in order to let others have a clearer run at the ball.

[Go_Dogs]

2016 was blessed in a lot of ways. Clay having a clear run at it for a brief time was one of those blessings.

Sometimes this is all you need. A player to have a purple year or two and it can be the difference between being a contender or not. We’ve got a few players who are around the mark and could do that for us.

[kruder]

1/. Clay Smith - Aggressive, team first forward.
2/. Liam Picken - Aggressive, team first forward who could play mid if required.
3/. Matt Boyd - Aggressive, team first defender who understands how to play mid and can fill in as necessary.
4/. Dale Morris - Aggressive, team first defender able to play on smalls and talls.

It warms my little heart seeing the names above. Absolutely we haven't replaced them our team lacks their edge no doubt about it.

Treloar? Just the deal of a life time and if you're in the business of deals and it falls on your lap you have to take it.

[dukedog]

Really cant disagree to any part o the post mate. Other than a quality player that we wouldnt have got we got for relative peanuts. Game plan comes into play here. If you outwork your opponent offensively. You can give up some defense. Nice post