Which Player are you looking forward to seeing in 2021

[bornadog]

We have had two threads on players under pressure and who needs to improve. This thread is about which player are you looking forward to seeing in 2021.

Most will say JUH, but who else are you excited about?

I am really wanting to see how Vander has improved and can he take the next step and become a consistent, fast paced HFF/Wingmen in the best 22.

[Mofra]

Naughton with an injury free run.
I'd lik to see how Keath goes too after 12 months in our system. He was a huge success for mine but little talked about.

[GVGjr]

Yep, Naughton for me as well. He is capable of winning games and we need him in full flight

[comrade]

Praying that English has developed some core strength.

[azabob]

For me there are two.

Caleb Daniel. Huge season for him. During 2020 he showed if you give him time and space he will cut you up which was shown by him wining our B&F and Geary also sitting on him during our Elimination final. I am really keen to see if we play him of HB again or look to move him to a hybrid midfield / attacking role. If we do play him off HB I am looking forward to see how he works through the tag and how his teamates and coaches ensure he can still use his disposal to great effect.

The other is Lachie Hunter. He is a seriously good footballer and who is vital to our makeup.
I'm not sure most posters realised his importance to our team until he was missing. I know I certainly didn't.
I'm putting blind faith that he will be training extremely hard and take his game to another level and win his second B&F.

[Rocket Science]

Lewy Young, purely to confirm I didn't imagine him.

[Vred]

JUH
Naughton with a full pre-season under his belt
A ruckman who might give us a fighting chance vs the best

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Weightman, Josh Schache, Naughton, Josh Bruce.
Love goal power talent.

[Jeanette54]

For me, Josh Dunkley. Will he stand up, play his best football and become the powerhouse we all know he can be.

[FrediKanoute]

Naughton for me. really hoping he gets a free run with injury

Also looking at seeing how Treloar settles in and what this does to some other guys

[Eastdog]

- JUH
- Adam Treloar
- Stefan Martin
- Aaron Naughton
- Josh Dunkley
- Josh Bruce
- Rhylee West
- Tim English
- Laitham Vandermeer

[MrMahatma]

Naughty fo sho.

[Dry Rot]

Garcia for me.

Could he become one of those Richmond like small pressure forwards?

[jeemak]

I'm bundling all the midfielders into one and can't wait to see how we try and balance the seemingly abundant talent we have running through there.

Jacko and Smith look like the guys who will have to play outside for us more than they may be used to, so these are the guys I'll be watching to see if they can adapt.

As for the bookends, Bruce and Young have the capacity to contribute more thoroughly and I really hope they do.

[azabob]

I'm bundling all the midfielders into one and can't wait to see how we try and balance the seemingly abundant talent we have running through there.

Jacko and Smith look like the guys who will have to play outside for us more than they may be used to, so these are the guys I'll be watching to see if they can adapt.

As for the bookends, Bruce and Young have the capacity to contribute more thoroughly and I really hope they do.

Has Jacko ever played outside in his life?

[bornadog]

Has Jacko ever played outside in his life?

Isn't he a bit of both?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I can’t wait to see juicy. We know all the talent around him but after last years performance he is just like an extra draft pick. Really hoping he comes in fit, healthy and a bit of mongrel apart him.

The second is Step Martin. I recon he is the key to our flag hopes. Big body, hard body and should free up English and spoon feed our mids. If he delivers this will improve the output of English, Bont, Libba, Dunks, Smith ect by 15%

[Dry Rot]

I can’t wait to see juicy. We know all the talent around him but after last years performance he is just like an extra draft pick. Really hoping he comes in fit, healthy and a bit of mongrel apart him.

The second is Step Martin. I recon he is the key to our flag hopes. Big body, hard body and should free up English and spoon feed our mids. If he delivers this will improve the output of English, Bont, Libba, Dunks, Smith ect by 15%

Sorry, who is juicy?

[jeemak]

Sorry, who is juicy?

Bruce.

[jeemak]

Has Jacko ever played outside in his life?

Not in a dedicated way, though he has shown he can run and cut the zone up a bit with lateral kicking from the outside and has at times gotten penetration to break lines after some run and carry.

However, the reason I reckon he is in the van to play a bit more of an outside role is because he is probably a bit more adaptable than those who also prefer to play inside. Something has to give.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Has Jacko ever played outside in his life?

Jacko has always made an art form of working his arse to get into a position to receive, a key outside characteristic.

[mjp]

Jacko and Smith look like the guys who will have to play outside for us more than they may be used to, so these are the guys I'll be watching to see if they can adapt.


You may be right (re- role) but I hope you're not.

With all of our mids I think we need to be working out what 'type' of player we want playing inside/outside and making sure we are balanced.

- Smith and Treloar provide a lot of the same stuff and probably should be separated.
- Jacko and Dunks likewise
- Where does Liber fit - as a pure 'extractor' / in the opposition hit zone at clearances? Is Jong the 'other' player we have like this?
- Where does Bont fit?
- Who plays the run-with role that was successful when Toby was doing it? Is that West's path to the inside group? And does this player start inside and play a role at the stoppage OR start inside and play on his opponent OR start outside and roll-in/out after the clearance?

I'm still unclear on how all this is going to work!

[josie]

JUH and Naughton for me.

[jeemak]

You may be right (re- role) but I hope you're not.

With all of our mids I think we need to be working out what 'type' of player we want playing inside/outside and making sure we are balanced.

- Smith and Treloar provide a lot of the same stuff and probably should be separated.
- Jacko and Dunks likewise
- Where does Liber fit - as a pure 'extractor' / in the opposition hit zone at clearances? Is Jong the 'other' player we have like this?
- Where does Bont fit?
- Who plays the run-with role that was successful when Toby was doing it? Is that West's path to the inside group? And does this player start inside and play a role at the stoppage OR start inside and play on his opponent OR start outside and roll-in/out after the clearance?

I'm still unclear on how all this is going to work!

Well I'm glad you think I might be right, but hope I'm not and have nothing but questions mate! This might be news to you but we actually rely upon you to finish conversations rather than extend them when it comes to this type of thing.........!

To your point, I did think about the balances you've called out - but from a first change only, and without taking into account injuries etc. And to me the only fixed person is Libba as an extractor, albeit I have always wanted him to get a little bit more open ball so he can kick it given he's actually good at that.

To answer some questions with other questions that might kind of give an indication on how I see it:

- Is Jong able to stay on the park and play the role Toby played?
- Does West have the tools to replace Libba as an extractor given the longer season compared to 2020, assuming Libba's durability might be compromised?
- Does Bont play a Chris Grant/ James Hird role circa 1996/ and any time after that as needed between half forward and half back at his discretion when not being a prime midfielder? Is he mature enough to know when to play all three roles - are we smart enough to allow it to happen?

I get the last point is pretty much old world type of thinking towards how someone like Bont might play, but possibly we're so congested for options in the middle that we may need to innovate and set up phases of the game to allow for it.

[Mofra]

You may be right (re- role) but I hope you're not.

With all of our mids I think we need to be working out what 'type' of player we want playing inside/outside and making sure we are balanced.

- Smith and Treloar provide a lot of the same stuff and probably should be separated.
- Jacko and Dunks likewise
- Where does Liber fit - as a pure 'extractor' / in the opposition hit zone at clearances? Is Jong the 'other' player we have like this?
- Where does Bont fit?
- Who plays the run-with role that was successful when Toby was doing it? Is that West's path to the inside group? And does this player start inside and play a role at the stoppage OR start inside and play on his opponent OR start outside and roll-in/out after the clearance?

I'm still unclear on how all this is going to work!
I still have memories of Libba's job on Kennedy in the second half of the 2016 GF. Kennedy was clear BOG in the first half and Libba's job was vital to us getting over the line.

I really want to see one of Treloar or Smith in an "attacking" position at the stoppage so if the ball gets ahead of the contest we have a genuine burst capacity there.

As for the rest, I suspect even Bevo is still not sure yet. I know people want Macrae to play more outside but if he starts on the wing, can he hold his position without getting sucked closer to the contest? I'm not sure.

[EasternWest]

Mark Latham for me. I am a fan and he was a revelation last year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

There's a few for me.

Bruce looks in much better shape and is a quality player, but he had an appalling 2020 season. This is a real test for him as he's been whacked publicly by the footy community. Needs to assert himself early. The dividends for us could be huge.

Naughton needs to start doing more. I love him - equal to my favourite player (Bont) - but I want to see him perform on the big stage and against quality opposition consistently. His two finals don't sit well with me, despite the injury concerns around both games in different ways. Super talent who can do it all, we need him to be our Carey.

Treloar will have the eyes of all watching in the early part of the season and particularly R1. Always liked him as a player (and person), he has some personal challenges but I am hopeful he's setting himself for a big season. His style suits how we want to play and he could be lethal in our mid group.

Jamarra has to get a mention. So much hype, though I'm OK with him taking his time given no footy last year. Exciting to see his development though. Vandermeer will be 22 by the start of the season so it's a good age to take another big step forward after an impressive year.

[comrade]

Naughton needs to start doing more. I love him - equal to my favourite player (Bont) - but I want to see him perform on the big stage and against quality opposition consistently. His two finals don't sit well with me, despite the injury concerns around both games in different ways. Super talent who can do it all, we need him to be our Carey.


I haven't got the stomach to go back and watch the EF, but my takeway from the second half was that when Naughts had a free run at it and didn't have Bruce bumbling into every contest like a drunkard, he was a hell of a lot more dangerous. If Bruce sorts his s*** out, Naughton will be a much better player for it.

[dog town]

I still have memories of Libba's job on Kennedy in the second half of the 2016 GF. Kennedy was clear BOG in the first half and Libba's job was vital to us getting over the line.

I really want to see one of Treloar or Smith in an "attacking" position at the stoppage so if the ball gets ahead of the contest we have a genuine burst capacity there.

As for the rest, I suspect even Bevo is still not sure yet. I know people want Macrae to play more outside but if he starts on the wing, can he hold his position without getting sucked closer to the contest? I'm not sure. I can’t think of any logical reason to play Macrae outside. He is arguably our best inside player and it would be counter productive to move him in my view.

[Happy Days]

I haven't got the stomach to go back and watch the EF, but my takeway from the second half was that when Naughts had a free run at it and didn't have Bruce bumbling into every contest like a drunkard, he was a hell of a lot more dangerous. If Bruce sorts his s*** out, Naughton will be a much better player for it.

If Wallis could kick straight and Bruce could do literally anything, us and every other media idiot would still be raving about Naughton taking over and winning us that game.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I haven't got the stomach to go back and watch the EF, but my takeway from the second half was that when Naughts had a free run at it and didn't have Bruce bumbling into every contest like a drunkard, he was a hell of a lot more dangerous. If Bruce sorts his s*** out, Naughton will be a much better player for it.


If Wallis could kick straight and Bruce could do literally anything, us and every other media idiot would still be raving about Naughton taking over and winning us that game.

It wasn't until the last quarter that he started looking dangerous and as much as I'd like to point the finger at Bruce, Naughty needs to be accountable too. He finished with 5 disposals, 1 goal and 4 marks. We should be expecting a lot more than that. For comparison sake, Bruce was 6 disposals, 1 goal and 1 mark yet only one of them received criticism.

Understand Naughty has had some injuries which doesn't help but 2021 is a big year for him.

[GVGjr]

There are a few players with something to prove this year

Lewis Young, despite being just 22 Young has already been at the club for 4 years. 2021 shapes as a huge season for him.
Clearly the match committee haven't got a lot of faith in him given his dwindling level of senior games since his promising debut season and with a contract that expires at the end of the season he needs to make some significant steps forward this year
Tall, quick and a good intercept mark Young has all the attributes required to prove himself. The big question is if he will receive the opportunities?

Josh Schache, for a player who arrived at us with 27 senior games of development at Brisbane we have only been able to add another 29 games in the next 3 seasons and the recruitment of Josh Bruce saw Schache dropped down the pecking order in 2020
He's apparently come back to us in career best shape so it will be interesting to see if we are planning on using him much in 2021
A highly skilled player and a beautiful set shot for goal and also a player with a high endurance base he will however need to make the most of his chances this year despite being contracted until the end of 2021.
While he missed some games due to injuries he wasn't given much of a go by the match committee in 2020 which was puzzling especially given we extended his contract in Nov of 2019
Does anyone think Schache can force himself into the senior selections this year?

Rhylee West is entering his 3rd year with us but I feel he has a lot to play for which is probably a harsh assessment. He's a quality hard at it midfielder and forward but we are stacked for depth in those area's. I remain confident that he will become a good player for us but I still think this is an important season for him. With the retirements of Dickson and Lloyd and the injury to McLean, West has a great chance to force himself into the senior selection miss. Does anyone else think it's time for him to take a step forward?

[Danjul]

There are a few players with something to prove this year

Lewis Young, despite being just 22 Young has already been at the club for 4 years. 2021 shapes as a huge season for him.
Clearly the match committee haven't got a lot of faith in him given his dwindling level of senior games since his promising debut season and with a contract that expires at the end of the season he needs to make some significant steps forward this year
Tall, quick and a good intercept mark Young has all the attributes required to prove himself. The big question is if he will receive the opportunities?

Josh Schache, for a player who arrived at us with 27 senior games of development at Brisbane we have only been able to add another 29 games in the next 3 seasons and the recruitment of Josh Bruce saw Schache dropped down the pecking order in 2020
He's apparently come back to us in career best shape so it will be interesting to see if we are planning on using him much in 2021
A highly skilled player and a beautiful set shot for goal and also a player with a high endurance base he will however need to make the most of his chances this year despite being contracted until the end of 2021.
While he missed some games due to injuries he wasn't given much of a go by the match committee in 2020 which was puzzling especially given we extended his contract in Nov of 2019
Does anyone think Schache can force himself into the senior selections this year?

Rhylee West is entering his 3rd year with us but I feel he has a lot to play for which is probably a harsh assessment. He's a quality hard at it midfielder and forward but we are stacked for depth in those area's. I remain confident that he will become a good player for us but I still think this is an important season for him. With the retirements of Dickson and Lloyd and the injury to McLean, West has a great chance to force himself into the senior selection miss. Does anyone else think it's time for him to take a step forward?

I have not got a clue about what these players have to do to extend their careers. I have thought all are talented.

Lewis Young had the best debut as a key defender I’ve seen in years. His replacement is not half as good.
Schache is our best goal kicker but was kept out of the team by the worst forward I have seen in years.
West was excellent at ground level but then tried to jump over packs. Why?

l would love to see them all allowed to play their natural game, I suspect that it would increase our win rate. But I think they are doomed.

[GVGjr]

I have not got a clue about what these players have to do to extend their careers. I have thought all are talented.

Lewis Young had the best debut as a key defender I’ve seen in years. His replacement is not half as good.
Schache is our best goal kicker but was kept out of the team by the worst forward I have seen in years.
West was excellent at ground level but then tried to jump over packs. Why?

l would love to see them all allowed to play their natural game, I suspect that it would increase our win rate. But I think they are doomed.

I'm not sure we are at the doom phase yet Danjul but all 3 have a lot of work to do to get right back into the mix
Here is hoping their efforts are rewarded this year

[EasternWest]

I have not got a clue about what these players have to do to extend their careers. I have thought all are talented.

Lewis Young had the best debut as a key defender I’ve seen in years. His replacement is not half as good.
Schache is our best goal kicker but was kept out of the team by the worst forward I have seen in years.
West was excellent at ground level but then tried to jump over packs. Why?

l would love to see them all allowed to play their natural game, I suspect that it would increase our win rate. But I think they are doomed.


I'm not sure we are at the doom phase yet Danjul but all 3 have a lot of work to do to get right back into the mix
Here is hoping their efforts are rewarded this year

Young on the edge, Schache is done, West plenty of time.

[soupman]

Before I start keep in mind that like you i do rate these guys and have been very optimistic on them in the past, however.



Lewis Young had the best debut as a key defender I’ve seen in years. His replacement is not half as good.


Young is a key defender that sucks body on body and one on one, is a very good intercept mark, lacks composure with ball in hand and doesn't have the size to be the main guy. Could be a handy intercept defender, but in the multiple seasons since his debut he has never really looked like commanding a spot for more than 2 weeks in a row. Has been thrown around as a key forward and a ruck despite not really having the skill set to excel in either. Him not coming on at all is not all just down to us not playing him. Atm I liken his trajectory to Mark Austin. Atheltic and impressive to look at key defender who just hasn't shown that he can be an effective best 22 member and doesn't really have he strengths to offset the areas he is mediocre in.



Schache is our best goal kicker but was kept out of the team by the worst forward I have seen in years.


Schaches one thing he does very well is kick for goal, after that he is ok for forward IQ. THose are his positives. Meanwhile his footy IQ still lacks enough to mean he is just naturally involved in games, he is a timid slowish tall forward who is a mediocre mark, prone to going very missing, lacks a trick that makes him actually dangerous and has one position which is basically a high tall medium forward pocket. Ben Brown is probably the player I think he is closest to in terms of strengths, except Brown at the very least works his arse off all game and is a much stronger mark on the lead than Schache. And Brown was wanted by nobody even though his price was stuff all.



West was excellent at ground level but then tried to jump over packs. Why?


West is an industrious mid with tenacity who is undersized to play as the main ball winner, zippy but too slow and unskilled to play outside, not a natural forward and as you say (and like every single one of our players) prefers to fly for marks even when he is 100% the guy that should be waiting on the ground. I like West and think he could be something, but I really query what happens now considering the one spot I am confident he would be decent at we are overflowing with talented players in. I think he is a good chance to follow the Anthony Miles/Jarryd Lyons career path of moving clubs due lack of opportunity, kind of showing he is good enough but never really excelling and then either his career fizzles out (Miles) or a club finds a specific role which he can perform really well (Lyons).

[bornadog]

Just a reminder, this thread is about who you are excited to see this year.

Which player are you looking forward to see how they will perform, how is their development progressing, will they take the next step, it take it up a notch.

In the OP I mentioned Vandermer, but I am also looking forward to seeing if English can improve further and become a genuine ruckman?

Lots to look forward to for 2021.

[soupman]

Like many Laitham Vandermeer is the player i am very excited to see this year.

He showed glimpses of tricks he has, and while I don't recall him putting it all together in one game I definitely think he has the ability to. A pacy, direct winger/half forward with spunk is what we need. We have been trying to make Richards into one but he has not excelled in that role, while I think Vandermeer can and will. He will be a lot of fun if it all comes together.

[Danjul]

Like many Laitham Vandermeer is the player i am very excited to see this year.

He showed glimpses of tricks he has, and while I don't recall him putting it all together in one game I definitely think he has the ability to. A pacy, direct winger/half forward with spunk is what we need. We have been trying to make Richards into one but he has not excelled in that role, while I think Vandermeer can and will. He will be a lot of fun if it all comes together.

Vandermeer reminds me of a young Griffin. He has similar instincts and natural moves.

But I suspect that he is not cut out for our modern game, not enough ruck skills.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

There are a few players with something to prove this year

Lewis Young, despite being just 22 Young has already been at the club for 4 years. 2021 shapes as a huge season for him.
Clearly the match committee haven't got a lot of faith in him given his dwindling level of senior games since his promising debut season and with a contract that expires at the end of the season he needs to make some significant steps forward this year
Tall, quick and a good intercept mark Young has all the attributes required to prove himself. The big question is if he will receive the opportunities?

Josh Schache, for a player who arrived at us with 27 senior games of development at Brisbane we have only been able to add another 29 games in the next 3 seasons and the recruitment of Josh Bruce saw Schache dropped down the pecking order in 2020
He's apparently come back to us in career best shape so it will be interesting to see if we are planning on using him much in 2021
A highly skilled player and a beautiful set shot for goal and also a player with a high endurance base he will however need to make the most of his chances this year despite being contracted until the end of 2021.
While he missed some games due to injuries he wasn't given much of a go by the match committee in 2020 which was puzzling especially given we extended his contract in Nov of 2019
Does anyone think Schache can force himself into the senior selections this year?

Rhylee West is entering his 3rd year with us but I feel he has a lot to play for which is probably a harsh assessment. He's a quality hard at it midfielder and forward but we are stacked for depth in those area's. I remain confident that he will become a good player for us but I still think this is an important season for him. With the retirements of Dickson and Lloyd and the injury to McLean, West has a great chance to force himself into the senior selection miss. Does anyone else think it's time for him to take a step forward?

Agree with your sentiments on Lewis Young and Josh Schache who were cast aside following the recruitment of Keath and Bruce. It will be a make or break year for both Young and Schache who have ability and a good start to 2021 will hopefully see them become regulars. Rylee West similarly has ability with plenty of opposition given our mid field talent. West needs to work on his leg speed as our smaller players are not quick.

[SonofScray]

I am keen to see what Dutch can bring to the side if if keeps building on what we saw from him in 2020. There’s some real dynamic footy that can swell up when a blood like that goes hell for leather. He has the right mentality too, bit of swagger in amongst a dogged, combative base.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Jackson Mead debut for Port (having taught him), but I don't think that is playing the game right.

The more preseason has drifted along, the more I am excited about what the possible English/Martin combo can do. Even breaking even in ruck contests (especially around the ground) would be amazing.

[1eyedog]

Treloar now. Hope he is everything he's built up to be and more.

[merantau]

I am looking forward to seeing Stefan Martin and Adam Treloar. Both are total pros and look to be in tip-top shape. Lin Jong has had a horror run for 4 years. He must be really keen to take every opportunity that comes his way. Lewis Young and Josh Schache similarly but for different reasons. Bailey Dale, Rhylee West and Pat Lipinski are yet to establish themselves as regulars. The competition for spots is going to be brutal.

[Danjul]

I am looking forward to seeing Stefan Martin and Adam Treloar. Both are total pros and look to be in tip-top shape. Lin Jong has had a horror run for 4 years. He must be really keen to take every opportunity that comes his way. Lewis Young and Josh Schache similarly but for different reasons. Bailey Dale, Rhylee West and Pat Lipinski are yet to establish themselves as regulars. The competition for spots is going to be brutal.

Love the symmetry here.

We sent Roughy to the Pies in 2019 and he had a break out season. as many disposals and marks as he had in 2017 and 2018 combined with us. Collingwood hit the jackpot with Jordan.

Now they send us Treloar. Will we be so lucky?

[jeemak]

Love the symmetry here.

We sent Roughy to the Pies in 2019 and he had a break out season. as many disposals and marks as he had in 2017 and 2018 combined with us. Collingwood hit the jackpot with Jordan.

Now they send us Treloar. Will we be so lucky?

Roughead averaged pretty much the same amount of touches each game in his last two seasons with us as he did in his first with Collingwood, and taking into account shorter quarters in 2020 probably about the same again.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-collingwood-magpies--jordan-roughead

I can't think of a better example of why disposal statistics by themselves are a limited lens through which to analyse player performance, especially given he was used as a full back at the Pies and a changing ruck with us. Games played might be a better indicator, I suppose.

Roughy was a great fit for the Pies in 2019 and was I think just OK this year from what I saw, and good luck to him. I hope Treloar excels with us and I'm really looking forward to seeing him burst away from stoppages and run at defenders.

[Danjul]

Roughead averaged pretty much the same amount of touches each game in his last two seasons with us as he did in his first with Collingwood, and taking into account shorter quarters in 2020 probably about the same again.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-collingwood-magpies--jordan-roughead

I can't think of a better example of why disposal statistics by themselves are a limited lens through which to analyse player performance, especially given he was used as a full back at the Pies and a changing ruck with us. Games played might be a better indicator, I suppose.

Roughy was a great fit for the Pies in 2019 and was I think just OK this year from what I saw, and good luck to him. I hope Treloar excels with us and I'm really looking forward to seeing him burst away from stoppages and run at defenders.

i was using the statistics to indicate overall contribution to the team.

And yes, you are correct when you say games played is a good indicator. From memory, I think he played in only half of our games in 2017/2018. And all in 2019 with Collingwood.

The move was win/win for him and the Pies. I hope Treloar’s move works as well for us. In fact, I’m hoping he combines well with Martin and it’s even better.

And thanks for the link.

[AshMac]

I’m most looking forward to seeing Martin tbh - not so much as an individual player but in the way ‘could’ change the dynamic of the team. Fingers crossed he doesn’t miss a beat changing teams and returning from injury and we get a taste round 1 against Grundy.

[jeemak]

i was using the statistics to indicate overall contribution to the team.

And yes, you are correct when you say games played is a good indicator. From memory, I think he played in only half of our games in 2017/2018. And all in 2019 with Collingwood.

The move was win/win for him and the Pies. I hope Treloar’s move works as well for us. In fact, I’m hoping he combines well with Martin and it’s even better.

And thanks for the link.

You were using them as an aggregate comparison compared to his time with the Bulldogs, and ignoring that he played more games at Collingwood than he did at the Bulldogs and in a different position.

No worries about sharing the link. Given you're a proponent of statistics to back your arguments I'd personally get more from your posts if you also shared links to stats you reference and detailed why you think they are important beyond their totals in themselves.

[Danjul]

You were using them as an aggregate comparison compared to his time with the Bulldogs, and ignoring that he played more games at Collingwood than he did at the Bulldogs and in a different position.

No worries about sharing the link. Given you're a proponent of statistics to back your arguments I'd personally get more from your posts if you also shared links to stats you reference and detailed why you think they are important beyond their totals in themselves.

Not sure why you are so determined to (constantly?) misrepresent what I clearly said.

I specifically compared his possessions and marks in 2017/2018 (with us) with those in 2019 ( with Collingwood). And as you confirmed with different stats, Collingwood got as much from him on the field in that 1 year as we did in the previous two. They got an experienced player who immediately gave them great service. And for nothing??? He got a full season and seemed to enjoy his footy. I don’t see how things could have gone better for either Roughy or Collingwood.

I don’t see 24 games at Collingwood and 25 with us as significantly different (it’s actually less at the Pies, not more).

And I hope we do as well in return with Treloar.

My source of statistics is simply the AFL website, I’m pretty sure all contain the same information but presented differently. I don’t understand what you mean by the last part so I’m not sure if this addresses it- I didn’t use games played (probably should have) because I was emphasising output on the field, and games don’t do that.

I can’t remember why he missed so many games in his last 2 years with us, I assume significant injuries, and playing in a different position as you pointed out might have contributed to his managing 24 games in 2019. 24 in one year is exceptional.

Yes, Roughy’s move to Collingwood was an amazing story all round.

[jeemak]

His output statistically when he moved to Collingwood, on a game by game basis is pretty much on par with game by game output in his last two years with the Dogs. Equaling possessions in the first year at Collingwood versus his last two at the Dogs only tells part of the story, in that on average game for game he was on par but due to playing more games his statistical aggregate was higher.

That's the thing about basic stats, they don't lie and can't be misrepresented if you break them down a little bit.

The last part of my post refers to your use of stats to justify a lot of the positions or arguments you present, and I'm just saying that while I like your contributions I'd get more out of them if you elaborated on them or broke them down more thoroughly to tell the story I think you're trying to tell because sometimes it's not clear to me how they're being used.

Alternatively you can tell me to bugger off and that's fine! :)

[Danjul]

His output statistically when he moved to Collingwood, on a game by game basis is pretty much on par with game by game output in his last two years with the Dogs. Equaling possessions in the first year at Collingwood versus his last two at the Dogs only tells part of the story, in that on average game for game he was on par but due to playing more games his statistical aggregate was higher.

That's the thing about basic stats, they don't lie and can't be misrepresented if you break them down a little bit.

The last part of my post refers to your use of stats to justify a lot of the positions or arguments you present, and I'm just saying that while I like your contributions I'd get more out of them if you elaborated on them or broke them down more thoroughly to tell the story I think you're trying to tell because sometimes it's not clear to me how they're being used.

Alternatively you can tell me to bugger off and that's fine! :)

Sorry, I might be wrong about my source of data. The site is afltables.com

not sure now if there’s a connection to the afl. What I like is you can get individual details on players by game . Easy to get lost in there though.

For example,

When I search for Lewis Young I find that he had 21 possessions in his first game.

When I search on Dale Morris I can find that he had 9.

I can then go through his games and find that he first exceeded the 20 mark in game 52. He had 23 that day.

He had 22 in game 85, 21 in 109, 21 in 113, 23 in131, 23 in 144, 22 in 211.

The search is hard on the eyes on an iPad but the details are there.

What value you place on them is a personal decision.

But when I see that a champion like Morris did it twice in his first 100 games and a total of only 7 times in a 250 game career my conclusion is Young has talent and the club probably hasn’t made full use of it.

The search on Morris suggests that game 52 was special, he took 15 marks. It was the only time he exceeded Young’ s 10 in game 2 (following the 9 in his first game). This reinforces the conclusion I have already drawn.

I think he should be left in the team, on the backline, and not burdened with the demands that he has to be a ruckman and forward as well. I suspect that has done more harm than good.

I am not confident that we will see much more of Young. His reputation was permanently damaged in game 5 when Patton kicked 4 goals and had 15 disposals. For Patton, who was 10kg heavier, it was game 72.

Also, the data holds details like:

Young still had 11 disposals and 5 marks, the same as Jake Stringer and better than Dunkley, Liber and Wallis. Liam Picken had 3 kicks. All widely viewed as champions. This suggests the 8 goal defeat was due to more than Young’s ‘less good ‘ game, although I have the impression that in many people’s mind Lewis Young has sole responsibility. And Patton was probably the dominant forward in the competition at that time , having already kicked bags of 6,6, 5, 5, 4,4 and 4 goals in the previous 20 games before he came across Young.


Yes, you can get lost in the data but I think it supports my conclusions.

[hujsh]

Sorry, I might be wrong about my source of data. The site is afltables.com

not sure now if there’s a connection to the afl. What I like is you can get individual details on players by game . Easy to get lost in there though.

For example,

When I search for Lewis Young I find that he had 21 possessions in his first game.

When I search on Dale Morris I can find that he had 9.

I can then go through his games and find that he first exceeded the 20 mark in game 52. He had 23 that day.

He had 22 in game 85, 21 in 109, 21 in 113, 23 in131, 23 in 144, 22 in 211.

The search is hard on the eyes on an iPad but the details are there.

What value you place on them is a personal decision.

But when I see that a champion like Morris did it twice in his first 100 games and a total of only 7 times in a 250 game career my conclusion is Young has talent and the club probably hasn’t made full use of it.

The search on Morris suggests that game 52 was special, he took 15 marks. It was the only time he exceeded Young’ s 10 in game 2 (following the 9 in his first game). This reinforces the conclusion I have already drawn.

I think he should be left in the team, on the backline, and not burdened with the demands that he has to be a ruckman and forward as well. I suspect that has done more harm than good.

I am not confident that we will see much more of Young. His reputation was permanently damaged in game 5 when Patton kicked 4 goals and had 15 disposals. For Patton, who was 10kg heavier, it was game 72.

Also, the data holds details like:

Young still had 11 disposals and 5 marks, the same as Jake Stringer and better than Dunkley, Liber and Wallis. Liam Picken had 3 kicks. All widely viewed as champions. This suggests the 8 goal defeat was due to more than Young’s ‘less good ‘ game, although I have the impression that in many people’s mind Lewis Young has sole responsibility. And Patton was probably the dominant forward in the competition at that time , having already kicked bags of 6,6, 5, 5, 4,4 and 4 goals in the previous 20 games before he came across Young.


Yes, you can get lost in the data but I think it supports my conclusions.

I reach the opposite conclusion which is that number of possessions per game can be completely irrelevant to you being a champion defender. This of course depends on role as for someone like JJ whether he finds the ball often enough is vital to his contributions to the team. Young plays a role (or we need him to play a role) of key defender where I would say possessions per game is a bonus and secondary priority at best. Actual defending what we need more than anything from a tall defender.

[Danjul]

I reach the opposite conclusion which is that number of possessions per game can be completely irrelevant to you being a champion defender. This of course depends on role as for someone like JJ whether he finds the ball often enough is vital to his contributions to the team. Young plays a role (or we need him to play a role) of key defender where I would say possessions per game is a bonus and secondary priority at best. Actual defending what we need more than anything from a tall defender.

I can only quantify a player’s performance by looking at what they did and comparing that to what others managed. I have seen people on WOOF praise Cordy as a defender because of his 1% ers. In the game described below against GWS Young’s stats are almost identical to Cordys. Both are listed for 1%s as 6. The only other player to get more than 2 was Bailey Williams (with 3). Between them these 3 players had more than half of those for the whole team.

Interestingly, when the next season began Young got 4 games in the next 40. Williams 22 and Cordy 38.

Cordy was selected in every game in 2019 despite numerous opponents kicking a personal best number of goals against him.

Admittedly, stats only give a view of what happened on the field and what happened off the ground can be influential in a footballers career. I assume that is why 2 of these three young backmen seemed to deteriorate and struggle to return to the team after extremely promising starts.

[hujsh]

I can only quantify a player’s performance by looking at what they did and comparing that to what others managed. I have seen people on WOOF praise Cordy as a defender because of his 1% ers. In the game described below against GWS Young’s stats are almost identical to Cordys. Both are listed for 1%s as 6. The only other player to get more than 2 was Bailey Williams (with 3). Between them these 3 players had more than half of those for the whole team.

Interestingly, when the next season began Young got 4 games in the next 40. Williams 22 and Cordy 38.

Cordy was selected in every game in 2019 despite numerous opponents kicking a personal best number of goals against him.

Admittedly, stats only give a view of what happened on the field and what happened off the ground can be influential in a footballers career. I assume that is why 2 of these three young backmen seemed to deteriorate and struggle to return to the team after extremely promising starts.

That's the rub isn't it? There's a lot we simply don't know.

I do agree that 1%ers are a good indicator of a players defensive efforts and generally agree that Young 'should' be better suited to the role Cordy plays. I have to assume there is reasoning behind the fact that Cordy gets selected before Young though.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That's the rub isn't it? There's a lot we simply don't know.

I do agree that 1%ers are a good indicator of a players defensive efforts and generally agree that Young 'should' be better suited to the role Cordy plays. I have to assume there is reasoning behind the fact that Cordy gets selected before Young though.

I agree. I would be super confident that the club is super keen for Young to step up and demand selection. The fact that Gardner and Cordy were consistently put ahead of him is more likely to be indicative that Young wasn't upholding his end of the contract in terms of KPI's than it is any incompetence or favouritism on coaching team's part.

[Twodogs]

Sorry, I might be wrong about my source of data. The site is afltables.com

not sure now if there’s a connection to the afl. What I like is you can get individual details on players by game . Easy to get lost in there though.


AFLtables is a privately run site. No official connection to the AFL. It's easy to get caught up in though. You can look up and realise you've spent 2 or 3 hours sifting through names and stats. Personally I use it as canon and don't dispute their facts.


https://afltables.com/afl/notes.html