View Full Version : Bulldogs By the Numbers
merantau
13-05-2021, 05:36 PM
Steve Kretiuk does some prosthetic testing in the field.
https://youtu.be/Nn1NXt_pI2A
merantau
13-05-2021, 05:58 PM
Debuting in 2015 in the #35 Caleb Daniel has now played 116 games, played in a Premiership and won a B&F.
He is an exceptional player in the true meaning of the word. Few players have his sense of geography - knowing where everyone is. His skill by foot is elite, his timing uncanny. He can change direction like a dragon fly, his creativity with the ball makes him a standout. In tight situations he maintains his calm. The action may be whirling around him but it's as if he, the ball carrier, is in the eye of the storm, unhurried, unruffled, weighing up the options, looking to deliver the ball to advantage. A superb footballer.
merantau
13-05-2021, 06:03 PM
Caleb Daniel 2020 Highlights
https://youtu.be/KbiPt69ECDQ
Twodogs
13-05-2021, 09:35 PM
Beginning in 1992 in the #46 Steve Kretiuk took over #35 the following season. He had a 12 years 170 career with us and was a much loved player. He gave no quarter and asked for none in return. What you saw was what you got. A hard tackling, take no prisioners, defender who made you earn every kick.
He would have been a 200 game player if not for recurring hamstring injuries. Definitely a Bulldog favourite. He often conceded size to his opponents but "it's not the size of the dog in the ... "
This is a great tribute to Steve from the Club website. Western Suburbs thru and thru.
Whatever happend to: Steven Kretiuk?… https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/20758/whatever-happend-to-steven-kretiuk
A few years ago I was talking to Steve Kretiuk at a club function. We got onto the topic of the 1994 Qualifying Final when Ablett torched Kritter in the first quarter. Steve said that as they ran to the first contest Ablett pushed his hand into Kritter's face and pushed his eyeball back so far that it lodged underneath his eye socket and Steve couldn't see a thing! The doctors managed to manoeuvere the eye and dislodge it out from under the socket at quarter time.
That's seriously tough!
Prince Imperial
13-05-2021, 09:58 PM
A few years ago I was talking to Steve Kretiuk at a club function. We got onto the topic of the 1994 Qualifying Final when Ablett torched Kritter in the first quarter. Steve said that as they ran to the first contest Ablett pushed his hand into Kritter's face and pushed his eyeball back so far that it lodged underneath his eye socket and Steve couldn't see a thing! The doctors managed to manoeuvere the eye and dislodge it out from under the socket at quarter time.
That's seriously tough!
I was right behind the goals and saw exactly what happened. Ablett deliberately gouged Kretiuk's eyes and then kicked a simple goal when Kretiuk was unable to see or even compete.
Always think of it when Brownless gloats about his last goal of the game. Ablett was a dirty thug.
bornadog
13-05-2021, 10:28 PM
I was right behind the goals and saw exactly what happened. Ablett deliberately gouged Kretiuk's eyes and then kicked a simple goal when Kretiuk was unable to see or even compete.
Always think of it when Brownless gloats about his last goal of the game. Ablett was a dirty thug.
I remember seeing him belt Epplestun in the guts when he was being beaten.
EasternWest
13-05-2021, 11:18 PM
A few years ago I was talking to Steve Kretiuk at a club function. We got onto the topic of the 1994 Qualifying Final when Ablett torched Kritter in the first quarter. Steve said that as they ran to the first contest Ablett pushed his hand into Kritter's face and pushed his eyeball back so far that it lodged underneath his eye socket and Steve couldn't see a thing! The doctors managed to manoeuvere the eye and dislodge it out from under the socket at quarter time.
That's seriously tough!
Hashtag just Ablett things
merantau
14-05-2021, 06:03 AM
Hashtag just Ablett things
He's a "Christian" so that excuses everything.
merantau
14-05-2021, 07:54 AM
From '70 to '73 Charlie Pagnocollo played 46 games and kicked 51 goals in the #36. He one the Best First Year Player Trophy and had great pace apparently. But I never saw him play as I was overseas. He came from Werribee Imperials. Went to Melbourne where he played one game. I believe he suffered a very serious injury when he was with us. Can anyone confirm?
merantau
14-05-2021, 10:19 AM
We had to wait until 1995 for our next significant #36 to arrive - but what a player he turned out to be. He actually wore #11 in his first season with us but took up #36 - the number he wore at North - in his second season with us. Josè Romeo - what a gun player. I was really surprised when North traded him as he was playing very good football for them
His record:
Years Club Games (Goals)1988–1994 North Melbourne 89 (98) 1995–2001 Western Bulldogs 122 (71) Total 211 (169)
He arrived in Australia, aged 7, from Chile and was recruited by North from the Jacarna Football Club.
He was a running machine and according to Wickipedia still holds the AFL Beep Test record at 17.1.
He was a very tough and durable midfielder who could play on the inside as well as outside.
He won our B&F in his second season with us and also served on the board. A really good player and Club person. He was very popular with supporters.
merantau
14-05-2021, 10:36 AM
Josè Romero's first goal in Bulldog colours.
https://youtu.be/jX--x7UOTtQ
And another v the Crows.
https://youtu.be/x8mvAuT9uBg
merantau
14-05-2021, 10:44 AM
From 2002 to 2012 Brian Lake played 197 games in the #36 before being traded to Hawthorn where he played in 3 Flags and won the Norm Smith Medal in 2013. He won our B&F and was All Australian a couple of times.
He was one of the best full backs of the modern era. At 6'5" and 98 kg he had the height and bulk to handle any forward. He had great anticipation - intercept marking: he was the master. One-on-one - he was the immovable object. Turning defence into attack: he was your go-to man.
What a pity he went to Hawthorn. He was a fine player.
https://youtu.be/I3pnlQEbP58
Happy Days
14-05-2021, 11:03 AM
09-10 Brian Lake is a top 5 Bulldogs player in my lifetime. He was untouchably great and changed the way defenders play the game.
Grantysghost
14-05-2021, 11:16 AM
He's still running around (up forward) for Caroline Springs in div 1. WRFL.
bornadog
14-05-2021, 11:33 AM
09-10 Brian Lake is a top 5 Bulldogs player in my lifetime. He was untouchably great and changed the way defenders play the game.
It was a shame Macca got rid of Lake.
merantau
14-05-2021, 11:41 AM
It was a shame Macca got rid of Lake.
Thanks for the heads up re that. Spending time overseas means I miss out on a lot of the back stories re trades.
merantau
14-05-2021, 12:01 PM
From '05 to "08 Cameron Wight played 36 gamed in the #37. At 200cm and 97kg he had size on his side and played some good games for us.
merantau
14-05-2021, 12:06 PM
From '05 to "08 Cameron Wight played 36 gamed in the #37. At 200cm and 97kg he had size on his side and played some good games for us.
There is a back story to his career which he shared with the public in 2016.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-finals-exwestern-bulldogs-player-cameron-wight-shares-story-of-depression-20160923-grmjdl.html
merantau
14-05-2021, 12:24 PM
From '94 to '97 Daniel Hargraves played 38 games and kicked 62 goals in the #37. He had bucket loads of talent. He went to Freo where he played 3 games in 2 years before heading to the SANFL where he won the Ken Farmer medal for the comp's leading goal kicker. I remember he kicked 12 in a Reserves final at the "G".
merantau
17-05-2021, 11:50 AM
From '85 to '89 Angelo Petraglia played 49 games for us in the #38. He played 5 games at North before being de-listed. 1985 saw him at Port Melbourne. He came to us at the end of the season and played in Rd 17 and 18.
He was a regular over the next two seasons and a regular goal kicker. He was a solid "in and under" rover with plenty of pace and a good left foot.He knew how to snag a goal too. His 49 games with us saw him boot 56 goals. His career was cut short by a knee injury. Good player.
Twodogs
17-05-2021, 12:35 PM
I think that Ian Rickman wore #37 too. Chops was one of those "could have been anything" types. He kicked 6 from a half forward flank on Keith Greig (who was no slouch) the last time we ever played at Arden street against North.
Then he went to Williamstown and played in a premiership while kicking plenty of goals from a HFF. I remember when Terry Wheeler took on the coaching job at Footscray he was really keen to get Chops back to the club. From memory Rickman started training with us but did his knee during the preseason. A massive shame because Chops was a terrific player.
merantau
17-05-2021, 01:37 PM
Indeed he was. I was at Arden St for that match too. He was a booming kick.
merantau
17-05-2021, 01:45 PM
Dale Morris played 253 games for us in the #38. A much loved and respected footballer he was and will always be a Bulldog hero. Possibly the most complete defender we have ever had in that he could hold his own against the biggest, stongest forwards and was agile and quick enough to play on smaller opponents too. His toughness and ability to overcome injury were legendary. He was well known for his tackling and his 2nd and third efforts. He saved the day for us on countless occasions during his 15 year career during which he came back from some horrific injuries.
Notes from Wikipedia.
Morris spent four years playing for Werribee Football Club in the Victorian Football League before being added to the Bulldogs' rookie list in the 2004 Rookie Draft. He quickly cemented his place in the Western Bulldogs' lineup, impressing many with his pace and consistency as a defender, and finished with 17 games for season 2005. He was elevated to the senior list at the end of 2005.
Morris was selected in the back pocket of the 2008 All-Australian team.
Morris played in guernsey number 38 for the duration of his career.
In Round 21, 2011, against the Essendon Bombers, Morris suffered a broken tibia in his lower right leg which prematurely ended his season. Morris returned to play one quarter in a Development Match game in Round 6, 2012, but suffered a stress fracture in the same leg which he broke in horrific circumstances in 2011. The injury sidelined Morris for the rest of the season.
Morris made his return to AFL in Round 1, 2013. In what was overall a successful campaign for Morris, he provided defensive solidity to the Bulldog's back line, and also managed to play all 22 games for the season.
In 2016, Morris was part of the Western Bulldogs premiership team that ended their long-standing premiership drought of 62 years. After the game, it was revealed that Morris had played the entire finals series with a fractured vertebrae.
Morris is known for his quick recovery from injury. He suffered a partial tear in his ACL in 2018 yet came back to play the back-end of the 2018 season. In 2019, he suffered another ACL, and was out of action until Round 19, where he rupture his ACL for the third time in 18 months. Prior to the 2019 final series, Morris announced his retirement after 253 games.
merantau
17-05-2021, 01:49 PM
Dale Morris executes a trademark tackle.
https://youtu.be/XksWfbV4Z4E
merantau
17-05-2021, 02:01 PM
From '61 to '65 Barry Ion played 40 games in the #38. He played on the half back flank in our '61 GF team.
merantau
17-05-2021, 02:13 PM
In his debut season, 1986, Tony Liberatore played 4 games in the #60 jumper. He took over #39 the next season. It took him four years to establish himself in the team but when he did he made a statement with his football and went and won the Brownlow Medal.
He played 283 games in a storied career spread over 16 years.He won the B&F in 1991 and was selected in the Bulldogs Team of the Century. A Bulldog champion, much loved and respected for his unstinting efforts on behalf of his teamates and the Club.
Notes from Wikipedia.
Liberatore played junior football for Brunswick City. He was recruited by North Melbourne, where he played both under-19s and reserve grade football. After winning the Morrish Medal in 1984, he called Hawthorn, St Kilda and Footscray in the hope of playing senior football. Mick Malthouse, who was Footscray coach at the time, invited Liberatore to train but made no guarantees that he would get a game. At his first training session with the club, Liberatore was teased by full-forward Simon Beasley, who said that due to his lack of height he would have been better off training to be a jockey at the nearby Flemington Racecourse. Although Liberatore made his senior level debut in 1986, he mainly played in the reserves that season, winning the VFL reserves' Gardiner Medal in both 1986 and 1988. He was a member of the team that won the 1988 VFL reserves premiership.
Standing at 163 cm, Liberatore played only 18 senior games until the 1990 season, when he played 19 games and won the Brownlow Medal for the best and fairest senior AFL player.
Liberatore played a total of 283 senior games for Footscray/Western Bulldogs in a career that included 13 finals, life membership of the club, and selection on the interchange bench in the club's Team of the Century.
Liberatore was noted for his ability to read the play and his prolific tackling. Throughout his senior career, he made 1,225 tackles in his careerNote; an average of 4.39 per game. In 1992 he became the first VFL/AFL player to exceed 100 tackles in a season, and then exceeded 100 tackles each season until 1996. His season tally of 142 tackles in 1994 stood as the VFL/AFL record until 2006, when James McDonald bettered it by one.
bornadog
17-05-2021, 02:21 PM
Dale Morris executes a trademark tackle.
https://youtu.be/XksWfbV4Z4E
I nominate Dale for best #38
merantau
17-05-2021, 02:32 PM
Libber 1990 Brownlow Medal acceptance speech.
https://youtu.be/LIQB9-9PVok
merantau
17-05-2021, 02:33 PM
I nominate Dale for best #38
Seconded.
bornadog
17-05-2021, 02:36 PM
Seconded.
#Libba senior takes #39 - Brownlow medalist and in team of the century.
merantau
17-05-2021, 02:47 PM
Debuting in 2012 JJ has now played 151 games in the famous #39. Blessed with great speed he has been a very important part of our team because he has that rare speed that enables him to burst clear into open space and catch a defence out of position. His run that resulted in the Bont's goal against GWS is a classic example of this. He is a beautiful long kick and his after the siren goal to defeat Sydney at the SCG is a fond memory.
He is working his way back into form after losing his way somewhat. An in form, confident, pro-active JJ is a big plus for our team.
Norm Smith Medallist in a Premiership team
EasternWest
17-05-2021, 02:50 PM
Dale Morris played 253 games for us in the #38. A much loved and respected footballer he was and will always be a Bulldog hero. Possibly the most complete defender we have ever had in that he could hold his own against the biggest, stongest forwards and was agile and quick enough to play on smaller opponents too. His toughness and ability to overcome injury were legendary. He was well known for his tackling and his 2nd and third efforts. He saved the day for us on countless occasions during his 15 year career during which he came back from some horrific injuries.
Notes from Wikipedia.
Morris spent four years playing for Werribee Football Club in the Victorian Football League before being added to the Bulldogs' rookie list in the 2004 Rookie Draft. He quickly cemented his place in the Western Bulldogs' lineup, impressing many with his pace and consistency as a defender, and finished with 17 games for season 2005. He was elevated to the senior list at the end of 2005.
Morris was selected in the back pocket of the 2008 All-Australian team.
Morris played in guernsey number 38 for the duration of his career.
In Round 21, 2011, against the Essendon Bombers, Morris suffered a broken tibia in his lower right leg which prematurely ended his season. Morris returned to play one quarter in a Development Match game in Round 6, 2012, but suffered a stress fracture in the same leg which he broke in horrific circumstances in 2011. The injury sidelined Morris for the rest of the season.
Morris made his return to AFL in Round 1, 2013. In what was overall a successful campaign for Morris, he provided defensive solidity to the Bulldog's back line, and also managed to play all 22 games for the season.
In 2016, Morris was part of the Western Bulldogs premiership team that ended their long-standing premiership drought of 62 years. After the game, it was revealed that Morris had played the entire finals series with a fractured vertebrae.
Morris is known for his quick recovery from injury. He suffered a partial tear in his ACL in 2018 yet came back to play the back-end of the 2018 season. In 2019, he suffered another ACL, and was out of action until Round 19, where he rupture his ACL for the third time in 18 months. Prior to the 2019 final series, Morris announced his retirement after 253 games.
If not my favourite Bulldog ever, certainly top 3.
merantau
17-05-2021, 02:51 PM
Jason Johannisen 2016 v GWS.
https://youtu.be/M21wzr0iqFQ
merantau
17-05-2021, 03:20 PM
Debuting in 2007 in the #40 Jarrod Harbrow played 70 games for us in four seasons before, as an uncontracted player, he elected to return to Queensland and play for the newly formed Suns.
We tried very hard to keep him as he had developed into one of the League's top rebounding defenders. A very fine footballer indeed.
merantau
17-05-2021, 04:03 PM
So we've now completed nos. 31 thru 40. Nominations for #31 are closed. It's KT by the length of the straight. #32 thru #40. It's over to you.
bornadog
17-05-2021, 04:14 PM
#32 - Foster
#33 - Royal
#34 - Truck
#35 - Steve Kretiuk
#36 - Lake
#37 - Hargraves (not many played in #37)
#38 - Dale Morris
#39 - Libba
#40 -Harbrow as there is no one else.
Twodogs
17-05-2021, 06:31 PM
I nominate Dale for best #38
Seconded.
Thirded.
Not long after the premiership I was at the Bulldog museum talking to a couple of Irish backpackers when the premiership team walked past all kitted out in their jumpers (I assume that they were off to get the commemorative photo taken) One of the backpackers asked me which one was the toughest player was and I pointed to Dale. They were a little on the sceptical side and said "him? He's the toughest out of all them blokes? Are you sure you're not bullshitting us?"
So I showed them the Buddy tackle on my phone and then told them that he had a broken bone in his back wipe he did it. One of them said "yep. That's tough"
Twodogs
17-05-2021, 06:41 PM
#32 - Foster
#33 - Royal
#34 - Truck
#35 - Steve Kretiuk
#36 - Lake
#37 - Hargraves (not many played in #37)
#38 - Dale Morris
#39 - Libba
#40 -Harbrow as there is no one else
Brian Perrin. Somebody bought that sign every time he played that said "KEEP PERRIN IN THE SENIORS" or "PUT PERRIN IN THE SENIORS" If he didn't play to every game between 1980-1983. I have always assumed that it was his mum. There was Troy Moloney he wasn't a bad player and I'm pretty sure that Luke Darcy started in number 40 too.
merantau
17-05-2021, 07:28 PM
Brian Perrin. Somebody bought that sign every time he played that said "KEEP PERRIN IN THE SENIORS" or "PUT PERRIN IN THE SENIORS" If he didn't play to every game between 1980-1983. I have always assumed that it was his mum. There was Troy Moloney he wasn't a bad player and I'm pretty sure that Luke Darcy started in number 40 too.
I remember both of those players and I remember seeing a counter sign that read "Keep Brian Perrin in the Seconds". I thought he was a pretty good player. He had plenty of pace and was a good kick. I saw him get smashed in one game and stretchered off. But he only played 36 games and Troy Moloney only played 34.
As a rule of thumb I used 40 games as the general point needed to make the cut. There were some exceptions such as if a player had some distinguishing characteristic that I thought should be recognised.
Nuggety Back Pocket
17-05-2021, 09:03 PM
Dale Morris played 253 games for us in the #38. A much loved and respected footballer he was and will always be a Bulldog hero. Possibly the most complete defender we have ever had in that he could hold his own against the biggest, stongest forwards and was agile and quick enough to play on smaller opponents too. His toughness and ability to overcome injury were legendary. He was well known for his tackling and his 2nd and third efforts. He saved the day for us on countless occasions during his 15 year career during which he came back from some horrific injuries.
Notes from Wikipedia.
Morris spent four years playing for Werribee Football Club in the Victorian Football League before being added to the Bulldogs' rookie list in the 2004 Rookie Draft. He quickly cemented his place in the Western Bulldogs' lineup, impressing many with his pace and consistency as a defender, and finished with 17 games for season 2005. He was elevated to the senior list at the end of 2005.
Morris was selected in the back pocket of the 2008 All-Australian team.
Morris played in guernsey number 38 for the duration of his career.
In Round 21, 2011, against the Essendon Bombers, Morris suffered a broken tibia in his lower right leg which prematurely ended his season. Morris returned to play one quarter in a Development Match game in Round 6, 2012, but suffered a stress fracture in the same leg which he broke in horrific circumstances in 2011. The injury sidelined Morris for the rest of the season.
Morris made his return to AFL in Round 1, 2013. In what was overall a successful campaign for Morris, he provided defensive solidity to the Bulldog's back line, and also managed to play all 22 games for the season.
In 2016, Morris was part of the Western Bulldogs premiership team that ended their long-standing premiership drought of 62 years. After the game, it was revealed that Morris had played the entire finals series with a fractured vertebrae.
Morris is known for his quick recovery from injury. He suffered a partial tear in his ACL in 2018 yet came back to play the back-end of the 2018 season. In 2019, he suffered another ACL, and was out of action until Round 19, where he rupture his ACL for the third time in 18 months. Prior to the 2019 final series, Morris announced his retirement after 253 games.
David Young, Orthopedic Surgeon, who treated Dale Morris claimed that in all the years he had treated top Sports people from Olympic Games athletes and beyond he had never seen any one like Morris who had the strength of character and durability to recover from so many serious injuries and continue to play so well.
Certainly one of our best ever who was rarely beaten. Delighted to see him back on staff at the WB.
Twodogs
17-05-2021, 09:14 PM
I remember both of those players and I remember seeing a counter sign that read "Keep Brian Perrin in the Seconds". I thought he was a pretty good player. He had plenty of pace and was a good kick. I saw him get smashed in one game and stretchered off. But he only played 36 games and Troy Moloney only played 34.
As a rule of thumb I used 40 games as the general point needed to make the cut. There were some exceptions such as if a player had some distinguishing characteristic that I thought should be recognised.
Perrin came from North Melbourne I think.
And I remember reading that Troy Moloney's dad played with us wearing the #40 too. I think his name was Brian.
bornadog
17-05-2021, 09:24 PM
Perrin came from North Melbourne I think.
And I remember reading that Troy Moloney's dad played with us wearing the #40 too. I think his name was Brian.
Brian played 6 games in the #40
merantau
18-05-2021, 05:34 PM
The first #41 I can recall is Lyal Anderson who played 24 games between 1957 and 1959. He wore #41 for the first two and switched over to #7 in his last season. Another Bulldog from the famous Braybrook Football Club.
merantau
18-05-2021, 05:45 PM
I have been unable to find a player who has played more than 24 games in the #41.
merantau
18-05-2021, 06:00 PM
From 2009 to 2017 Liam Picken played 198 games in the #42. He was a terrific player, loved by teamates, coaches and supporters. He was just so totally reliable. You knew you would get 100% effort from him every time he ran out.
He first tried out at Collingwood but was rejected. Then he had two pre-seasons with us to no avail. So in 2008 he went to Williamstown where he won the B&F.
Williamstown insisted that we pick him in the 2009 Rookie Draft. We did and the rest is history.
He began as a tagger and quickly took some major scalps. He was the complete tagger who could win his own ball too.
It was no surprise when he was given a a more attacking role. He was a fierce competitor at ground level and was excellent in the air. He had pace and grit. He could lay tackle and his desire to win the hard ball was unequalled. His performance in the 2016 Finals was epic and he won the Best Finals Player Award.
Sadly he missed a lot of football due to concussions. He missed the entire 2018 season and ill health forced him into early retirement.
He was simply a marvellous player and will forever be remembered by all who saw him play. A Champion for sure.
merantau
18-05-2021, 06:27 PM
Liam Picken 2016.
https://youtu.be/4x9zpF5_UTA
merantau
18-05-2021, 06:49 PM
This was a great win. And Liam Picken played a big role in it.
https://youtu.be/bcNmgIoiLhA
merantau
18-05-2021, 07:04 PM
Round 2, 2017 v Swans at Etihad. Deep in the last quarter Liam Picken clears a loose ball from deep inside defensive 50 with an outrageous sideways kick to space. I think it was Lachie Hunter who gathered the ball and relayed it upfield where Trav Cloke spilled the mark but recovered the ball and drove it forward to where Liam Picken marked on his chest on the boundary, just inside forward 50! Liam quickly boots the ball into the 10 yard square from where the Bont casually strolls in, plucks the ball out of mid air and kicks a goal in one fluid movement.
That gut running by Liam Picken and the Bont was astonishing.
He's still running around (up forward) for Caroline Springs in div 1. WRFL.
Imagine it won’t be for long, he just returned after appealing a life suspension because of his total weeks suspended was over sixteen weeks threshold.(25% discount for AFL suspensions)
Already had to front the tribunal again.
Nuggety Back Pocket
18-05-2021, 08:00 PM
The first #41 I can recall is Lyal Anderson who played 24 games between 1957 and 1959. He wore #41 for the first two and switched over to #7 in his last season. Another Bulldog from the famous Braybrook Football Club.
Anderson was highly regarded by Braybrook’s greatest Coach in Jim Middleton and was tremendously skilled with an ability to play a lot more League games. Unfortunately for whatever reasons he disappeared from senior football far to early.
Twodogs
18-05-2021, 11:44 PM
I have been unable to find a player who has played more than 24 games in the #41.
Ross Christensen is a notable #41 for us. He didn't play many games but is remembered for one outstanding game in 1982 v Hawthorn when he kicked 5 on Chris Mew. At the time we were on the bottom and Hawthorn were one of the big guns of the comp (I think they were third) and we knocked them over by 15 points. It was Ross's second game and he and Simon Beasley kicked ten between them (5 each)
I am pretty certain that Ross is the father of ex Geelong and Brisbane player Allen Christensen.
merantau
19-05-2021, 05:34 AM
Ross Christensen is a notable #41 for us. He didn't play many games but is remembered for one outstanding game in 1982 v Hawthorn when he kicked 5 on Chris Mew. At the time we were on the bottom and Hawthorn were one of the big guns of the comp (I think they were third) and we knocked them over by 15 points. It was Ross's second game and he and Simon Beasley kicked ten between them (5 each)
I am pretty certain that Ross is the father of ex Geelong and Brisbane player Allen Christensen.
Notes from Wikipedia re Ross Christiansen
Recruited locally from West Footscray, Christensen played 10 games for Footscray. His best performance came in just his second league game when he kicked five goals in a win over Hawthorn at Western Oval.[2] During the 1983 season he crossed to Geelong, where he would make two senior appearances. Two other players sharing his surname also played for Geelong in the 1980s, Damien and Marty, but they were not related to Ross.
Christensen continued his career in the Victorian Football Association. He won a club best and fairest award at Werribee in 1984 and another with Coburg in 1986.
merantau
19-05-2021, 06:09 AM
Mathew Boyd played 68 games in the #42 before switching to #5.
merantau
19-05-2021, 06:21 AM
From '88 to '91 Matthew Hogg played 59 games in the #43. He was a very reliable back pocket/tagger who went to Carlton and ended up playing 173 games in total and was a member of their 1995 Premiership team. A fine career. Why did we let him go?
merantau
19-05-2021, 06:38 AM
From '82 to '86 Rod MacPherson played 43 games in the #43 as a hard running forward/utility. He played 7 games for the Brisbane Bears but did his ACL and was forced into early retirement because of complications from the surgery. Went on to coach the Bendigo Pioneers
merantau
19-05-2021, 06:52 AM
From '14 to '18 Jack Redpath played 36 games in the #43 and kicked 57 goals. He was a big forward who marked strongly and kicked straight. His career was ruined by persistent knee problems. He was a very solid performer who just couldn't get a run at it.
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
19-05-2021, 07:03 AM
From '82 to '86 Rod MacPherson played 43 games in the #43 as a hard running forward/utility. He played 7 games for the Brisbane Bears but did his ACL and was forced into early retirement because of complications from the surgery. Went on to coach the Bendigo Pioneers
I met Rod not long after he'd joined the Bears, I was only 14 or so and playing at a school footy game in Rockhampton. The Bears must've been up there on a promo visit and were sitting nearby us. So I went over and spoke to Rod, who I recognised. I mentioned to Rod I was sorry to see him leave and wished' he'd stayed at Footscray and he said 'yeah me too'.
They'd watched our game and presented a signed footy to our team after our game.
merantau
19-05-2021, 07:08 AM
Brett Goodes debuted in 2013 in the #44 and played 22 games in 3 seasons. He was a journeyman footballer who travelled a long road in order to play AFL. In 2014 he played in our VFL Premiership Team and won the Norm Goss Medal for best afield in the Grand Final.
Notes from Wikipedia.
"He played for North Ballarat in the Victorian Football League (VFL) and NT Thunder in the Queensland Australian Football League (QAFL) before accepting a job with the Western Bulldogs as a player development manager. Whilst at the club, he played in the Bulldogs VFL reserves squad, Williamstown. At the end of the 2012 season, he was invited to train with the Bulldogs senior team, and was selected with the club's first draft pick in the 2013 Rookie Draft.
AFL career
He made his AFL debut for the Bulldogs in the opening round of the 2013 season against Brisbane Lions at Etihad Stadium. In the Round 2 match against Fremantle, he was amongst the best players afield. After a promising first year, Goodes struggled for form in the 2014 season, playing predominantly in the club's VFL reserves team, where he won the Best and Fairest.
Goodes was delisted at the conclusion of the 2014 AFL season, but was re-drafted by the Bulldogs in the 2014 rookie draft, and was elevated to the senior list prior to the club's 2015 opening round clash against West Coast.
He was delisted at the conclusion of the 2015 AFL season."
merantau
19-05-2021, 07:21 AM
Richard Osborne played 3 seasons for us in the #44. He was a gun forward over a long career with 4 clubs.
Here is his record:
Years Club Games (Goals)
1982–1992 Fitzroy 187 (411)
1993 Sydney 16 (39)
1994–1996 Footscray 51 (98)
1997–1998 Collingwood 29 (26)
Total 283 (574)
He won our goalkicking in 1995 with 53 goals. He was a top footballer.
merantau
19-05-2021, 09:17 AM
Tim English has now played 53 games in the #44. He has been an excellent player and has a lot of upside to his game. I expect him to play out his career with us. Potential 200 plus game player.
merantau
19-05-2021, 10:18 AM
Between '85 and '91 Michael Ford played 96 games for us in the #45. "Fruitcake" was a fine defender for us. He had a lot of dash and ran in straight lines.
Notes from Wikipedia
"Ford, a defender from Bairnsdale, was already 22 when he started his AFL career. He played finals in his first year and appeared in a further six seasons for Footscray. St Kilda secured his services in the 1992 Pre-season Draft, with pick 10, but he would only play two senior games for his new club.
He spent the next stage of his career at Sandringham and was a member of their 1992 premiership side.
In 1994 he coached Oakleigh, in what would be their final season in the Victorian Football Association. A knee injury forced him to retire as a player.
He coached Springvale to a premiership in 1995, when they defeated his former club Sandringham in the grand final. Despite this he was sacked as coach and replaced by Brad Gotch.
Ford has been appointed coach of North Shore Australian Football Club for 2020.
merantau
19-05-2021, 10:27 AM
I'm nearing the end of this long project and starting to run out of steam. If anyone can think of a player who has worn #46, #47, #48 or #50 for 40 games or more, or who has distinguished themself in some other way, I invite you to post.
Brian Cordy had a fine career in the #49. Between 1981 and 1988 he played 124 games and kicked 18 goals. He played every game in 1985 in a very good Bulldog team that went very close to making the GF.
Just about all of his football was played of half back. He had plenty of dash.
Grantysghost
19-05-2021, 10:33 AM
Between '85 and '91 Michael Ford played 96 games for us in the #45. "Fruitcake" was a fine defender for us. He had a lot of dash and ran in straight lines.
Notes from Wikipedia
"Ford, a defender from Bairnsdale, was already 22 when he started his AFL career. He played finals in his first year and appeared in a further six seasons for Footscray. St Kilda secured his services in the 1992 Pre-season Draft, with pick 10, but he would only play two senior games for his new club.
He spent the next stage of his career at Sandringham and was a member of their 1992 premiership side.
In 1994 he coached Oakleigh, in what would be their final season in the Victorian Football Association. A knee injury forced him to retire as a player.
He coached Springvale to a premiership in 1995, when they defeated his former club Sandringham in the grand final. Despite this he was sacked as coach and replaced by Brad Gotch.
Ford has been appointed coach of North Shore Australian Football Club for 2020.
He was a solid defender Michael. Famously in a relationship with Libby Gore back in the day.
merantau
19-05-2021, 10:37 AM
Michael "Magic" McLean was a top footballer for us. I first saw him playing in the twos and I was really impressed by his "never give up" attitude. If he didn't win the ball he just kept on chasing and chasing. And he had the pace to run opponents to ground!
From the Territory he grew up playing both rugby and Aussie Rules. His Dad wanted him to pursue rugby but Michael opted to play football for the Nightcliff Football Club. He played 95 games for us in the #51between 1983 and 1988 before being cleared to the Brisbane Bears where he won 2 B&Fs and played a further 87 games.
His career with us was affected by persistent calf injuries and these would plague him at Brisbane too and eventually lead to his retirement.
He maintained his involvement with football post-retirement returning to the Territory to coach various teams and continue his commitment to his Indigenous brothers and sisters. He played an important role in setting up the Aboriginal All Stars game in Darwin. He was also the inaugural coach of the NT Football Club that debuted in the QAFL in 2009
Michael McLean was an excellent player for us.
Mofra
19-05-2021, 10:48 AM
I liked Jon Ballantyne as a player, #50. Surprised to see he only played 20 games for us.
Averaged 2.3 goals per game for us so he was no slouch.
Mofra
19-05-2021, 10:49 AM
#52 I'll note Mark Athorn, he only played a few games for us but he gave my dad reason to yell almost the entire game at him. It was not complimentary.
#58 is the highest number any Bulldog has worn in the VFL/AFL - Darren Stanley played 3 games in the number in 1991
bornadog
19-05-2021, 11:05 AM
#48 - Denis Collins played 38 games
bornadog
19-05-2021, 11:06 AM
#52 I'll note Mark Athorn, he only played a few games for us but he gave my dad reason to yell almost the entire game at him. It was not complimentary.
#58 is the highest number any Bulldog has worn in the VFL/AFL - Darren Stanley played 3 games in the number in 1991
Libba 4 games in the #60
merantau
19-05-2021, 11:11 AM
#52 I'll note Mark Athorn, he only played a few games for us but he gave my dad reason to yell almost the entire game at him. It was not complimentary.
#58 is the highest number any Bulldog has worn in the VFL/AFL - Darren Stanley played 3 games in the number in 1991
According to AFL Tables, Tony Liberatore debuted in 1986 and played 4 games in the #60! Sort of fits with the amazing Libber's journey which saw him head butt, and eventually knock down,
a few million kilowatt dams!
On the weekend in the VFL game between BoxHill Hawks and North, there was a North player wearing #81. That's got to be a record surely?
merantau
19-05-2021, 11:15 AM
So that brings me nearly to the end of this project. My next aim is to count up the number of players who've made the cut.
From that number I'll select my top 100 or maybe 150 players who have represented us since 1954 in order. Should create a bit of debate. Stay tuned.
bornadog
19-05-2021, 11:23 AM
So that brings me nearly to the end of this project. My next aim is to count up the number of players who've made the cut.
From that number I'll select my top 100 or maybe 150 players who have represented us since 1954 in order. Should create a bit of debate. Stay tuned.
Huge job, much appreciated.
merantau
19-05-2021, 11:25 AM
Mark Athorn played 83 games (17 with us) for four different clubs between 1987 and 1993. His last game was for Carlton in their 1993 GF loss to Essendon.
merantau
19-05-2021, 11:36 AM
Huge job, much appreciated.
No worries. I enjoyed doing it and will enjoy even more selecting my top 100 or 150.
Mofra
19-05-2021, 12:06 PM
According to AFL Tables, Tony Liberatore debuted in 1986 and played 4 games in the #60! Sort of fits with the amazing Libber's journey which saw him head butt, and eventually knock down,
a few million kilowatt dams!
On the weekend in the VFL game between BoxHill Hawks and North, there was a North player wearing #81. That's got to be a record surely?
Cheers, I had no idea. Interesting.
I remember Chris Grant played a game at Williamstown in number 77 returning from injury once.
Twodogs
19-05-2021, 12:08 PM
Rick Kennedy started in #54, Steve Kolyniuk started in #59 and one of my favourite players Kevin Sait wore #52 in his one season for before going back to dominate in the VFA. Stan Davidson who was a fair player and also went on to dominate in the VFA starts out in #53 before changing to #9.
Grantysghost
19-05-2021, 12:19 PM
So that brings me nearly to the end of this project. My next aim is to count up the number of players who've made the cut.
From that number I'll select my top 100 or maybe 150 players who have represented us since 1954 in order. Should create a bit of debate. Stay tuned.
Awesome work really enjoyed reading and taking the trip down memory lane :)
Bulldog4life
19-05-2021, 12:54 PM
From '61 to '65 Barry Ion played 40 games in the #38. He played on the half back flank in our '61 GF team.
At the same time he was a DJ at 3kz.
merantau
19-05-2021, 02:19 PM
Rick Kennedy started in #54, Steve Kolyniuk started in #59 and one of my favourite players Kevin Sait wore #52 in his one season for before going back to dominate in the VFA. Stan Davidson who was a fair player and also went on to dominate in the VFA starts out in #53 before changing to #9.
I remember Kevin kicking three goals in a quarter in one of his games at the Western Oval. He was a very courageous player. I think he weighed about 60kg wringing wet.
merantau
19-05-2021, 02:21 PM
I liked Jon Ballantyne as a player, #50. Surprised to see he only played 20 games for us.
Averaged 2.3 goals per game for us so he was no slouch.
Collingwood turned him into a defender and he was doing really well but then he got a bad injury and it was curtains. He was a glorious kick. He booted 46 goals in his 20 games with us.
Post football he played NFL Europe with a team called the Scottish Claymores. He then got signed by the Denver Broncos but did not get on the field.
Twodogs
19-05-2021, 08:36 PM
I remember Kevin kicking three goals in a quarter in one of his games at the Western Oval. He was a very courageous player. I think he weighed about 60kg wringing wet.
Against North I think. He won the competition in the VFA second division B&F (the Field medal) with Yarraville in 1980.
boydogs
20-05-2021, 12:15 AM
If anyone can think of a player who has worn #46, #47, #48 or #50 for 40 games or more, or who has distinguished themself in some other way, I invite you to post
Lin Jong #46, 65 games inc VFL premiership
merantau
20-05-2021, 07:19 AM
Lin Jong #46, 65 games inc VFL premiership
Thanks for that. I recalled him just before dozing off last night.
merantau
20-05-2021, 09:39 AM
So here's the first 24 of the Top 100 Bulldogs that I have seen with us since 1954
1. Ted Whitten
2. Chris Grant
3. Brad Johnson
4. Kelvin Templeton
5. Doug Hawkins
6. Charlie Sutton
7. Scott West
8. John Schultz
9. Marcus Bontempelli
10. Gary Dempsey
11. Simon Beasley
12. Scott Wynd
13. Tony Liberatore
14. George Bisset
15. Brian Royal
16. Bob Murphy
17. Dale Morris
18. Jack Collins
19. Matthew Boyd
20. Herb Henderson
21. Wally Donald
22. John Jillard
23. Tom Liberatore
24. Jim Gallagher
As well as my own observations, I have consulted our "Bulldogs Team of the Century" as the template for compiling this first group.
merantau
20-05-2021, 09:07 PM
Wow! I didn't realise how difficult this is going to be. I've selected another 26 players but sorting them in to some sort of order is really difficult. I have changed my mind a couple of times already!
To help me decide these are my biases: Premiership player - tick, games played - tick. B&F winner - tick, Brownlow - tick. Captain - tick. One club player - tick. Leading goalkicker - tick. Consistency - tick. My perception of the player's contribution to club success.
With each player I'll make a comment re why I've selected them.
merantau
21-05-2021, 08:56 AM
I just realised I left out Paul Hudson. He was an excellent #9. Played 5 seasons from '97 to '01. Won our goal kicking twice, was All Australian in 1998. 108 games 216 goals. A fine player.
Bulldog4life
21-05-2021, 09:51 AM
I just realised I left out Paul Hudson. He was an excellent #9. Played 5 seasons from '97 to '01. Won our goal kicking twice, was All Australian in 1998. 108 games 216 goals. A fine player.
wrong thread.
merantau
21-05-2021, 10:07 AM
So here goes. I'll leave it up to you to make your own judgements.
25. Liam Picken. Once he got a run he was never out the side. The supreme tagger who could win his own ball. Then became a manic running machine with great hands, a very sure kick for goal and a crunching tackler. Courage personified. Player of the Finals says it all.
26. Easton Wood. Premiership Captain. Led from the front. Got us on the board after a shaky start against the Hawks. Was magnificent against GWS and in the GF.
27. Jack Macrae Stepped up to kick the greatest pressure goal ever kicked by a Bulldog and his game has gone to another level since. Extreme courage, super fit: he goes all day.
28. Rick Kennedy. Captain courageous. Played on all the monster full forwards and was undersized for the job but never deterred. A fine leader.
29. Steve Wallis. Versatile and tough. Great in defence, in the midfield too
30. Rohan Smith. 300 games. Multiple roles. Great kick. Great run off half back. Never gave in.
31. Leon Cameron. You couldn't tell if he was a natural left or right sided player - he was that good.
32. Ryan Griffen. A tremendous in and out midfielder who stood up in big games. Totally consistent effort. We should never have made him captain. It was not his go. I was dismayed at the way it ended.
33. Lindsay Gilbee. Best kick in the League during his career. Great defender, great runner, an attacking weapon. Very versatile.
34. Luke Darcy. Excellent ruckman who could kick a goal
35. Adam Cooney An explosive player who could really break away from congestion.
36. Peter Foster. Mr Reliable. Great mark and kick. Could play both ends.
37. Bernie Quinlan. He was in the top half dozen players I ever saw but his career with us, although brilliant at times, was inconsistent. At Fitzroy he was mesmerisingly brilliant - better player that Ablett in my opinion.
38. Brian Lake. A fine attacking full back who could read the play and intercept all match.
39. Mitch Hahn. An absolute bulldozer who could play on ball and up forward
40. Caleb Daniel. Unique, unmatched cleverness by hand, foot and body movement. Great courage. User of the ball without peer.
41.Tory Dickson. Deadeye Dickson was in a class of his own and in big games he was a star.
42. Ian Dunstan. A three times B&F winner.
43. Steve Macpherson. Tough as nails forward/midfielder who always turned up to play.
44. Lachie Hunter. A running machine who is getting better each year.
45. Josh Dunkley. Getting better each year.
46. Matthew Croft. A rugged hard checking defender who could play either end.
47. Simon Atkins. Brilliant hands. In and under player.
48. Nathan Eagleton. Fantastic left foot kick. Very hard running and consistent
49. David Thorpe. Two times B&F A ball magnet
50. Steve Kolyniuk. Pace, skill, tough.
Twodogs
21-05-2021, 11:54 AM
That's an amazing effort Merantau. I genuinely can't think of a player you've left out or is too high or too low.
Except for KT obviously.:)
merantau
21-05-2021, 02:22 PM
So here we go - 51 thru 75. I think it gets tougher as you move down the list. There are groups of players you could throw a blanket over.
51. Peter Box. 108 games.Won the '56 Brownlow playing in the centre and played CHF in 1954. B&F winner in 1955
52. Don Ross. Premiership centreman. B&F in 1956 129 games.
53. Ryan Hargrave. 203 games of no-nonsense football. Very consistent. Always backed up.
54. Tony McGuinness. 5 yrs 108 games 109 goals. Best kick at FULL pace that I can re-call. B&F 1987
55. Nathan Brown. He was a very skilled player. 137 games and 206 goals but the way he left soured my opinion of him.
56. Laurie Sandilands. Captain and 4 times leading goal kicker. A defender turned spearhead. Fine leader.
57. Geoff Jennings. Fast, skillful rover. Club captain.
58. David Darcy. Attacking full back. Glorious kick and mark. Could play CHF too.
59. Ted Whitten Jnr. Beautiful mover. Superb deliverer of the ball to KT. 144 games, 133 goals.
60. Terry Wallace. Played 69 games in 4 seasons but won two B&Fs. Speaks for itself. Great team player.
61. Ray Walker. Great back pocket combo with David Darcy. B&F winner 1963.
62. Tom Boyd. Saved the games of his life for the two most important games for the Club in 55 years. Not to be underestimated
63 Jason Johannisen. An attacking weapon of half back.
64. Gordon Casey. Solid as a rock back pocket.
65. Dave Bryden. Premiership ruckman/defender. 147 games
66. Mitch Wallis. Tough like Steve. Versatile. Accurate kick. Makes clutch goals. Great courage.
67. Andrew Purser. Lion hearted ruckman. B&F winner 1984. 112 games.
68. Luke Dalhaus. A terrier. Tackling machine. Not happy he left but we got the best out of him.
69. Will Minson. Played 191 games and gave his all. Loved to kick a goal and fire up his team mates.
70. Peter Welsh. B&F 1972. Ruckman back pocket. Always hard at it.
71. Jose Romero. Tough midfielder who could run all day. Always in the contest and could kick a goal.
72. Steve Kretiuk. Determined and tough. Battled through injury and gave his all - always. 170 games but injury robbed him of 50.
73. Terry Wheeler. 157 games of hard uncompromising defending. Crowd favourite.
74. Barry Round. Bullocking ruck. Super strong and good up forward. One that got away. 135 games, 136 goals.
75 Gary Merrington. Played 174 games at full back, wing and half forward. That's a decent career.
GVGjr
21-05-2021, 02:32 PM
Merantau, You have done a terrific job but there is a chance you are underrating Jose Romero and Tony McGuinness
merantau
21-05-2021, 02:57 PM
I can see an error. I have to slot Daniel Giansiracusa in. Let me think about it.
GVGjr
21-05-2021, 02:58 PM
I can see an error. I have to slot Daniel Giansiracusa in. Let me think about it.
He's another great player
merantau
21-05-2021, 03:30 PM
I would slot Daniel Giansiracusa in just after Bernie Quinlan. He played the 11th most games for the Club and sits ninth on the all time goal kicker's list. Very consistent performer over a long career and became our super sub at the end of his career.
merantau
21-05-2021, 03:56 PM
Merantau, You have done a terrific job but there is a chance you are underrating Jose Romero and Tony McGuinness
Yes, I think you're on to something with Jose. Not so sure about Tony. There's always a lot of subjectivity in this sort of thing.
merantau
21-05-2021, 05:39 PM
And so onto the final 24.
77. Ian Bryant. Half back/wingman. 160 games. Glorious drop kick.
78. John Kerr. Top rover. BOG in the 1954 Grand Final.
79. Paul Hudson played 108 games and kicked 214 goals. A terrific pick up for us. Great skill and a beautiful kick for goal.
80. Harvey Stevens. Premiership ruckman. B&F 1953.
81. Daniel Southern. A great competitor who ran straight and left nothing to chance.
82. Jim Edmond. Strong hands. 154 games 226 goals. Club captain.
83. Stuart Magee. Fine centreman/rover. Club captain 132 games.
84. Simon Garlick. 137 games 114 goals.. A quality small forward
85. Shaun Higgins. 128 games and 129 goals. Played some very good football and we lost out when he left.
86. Roger Duffy. A clever HFF in our 54 Premiership team. Won our goal kicking in his first year. 117 games, 117 goals.
87. Matthew Robbins. Small forward who had great pace and could mark well. 139 games, 135 goals
88. Mick Egan. 128 games of determined defence. Courageous player.
89. Mark Hunter. 130 games. Very accomplished tagger/defender.
90. Arthur Edwards. 120 games. Premiership ruckman.
91. Jake Stringer. Cannot forget his 2015 season. 89 games 160 goals. Brilliant but brittle.
92. Bob Spargo. Long striding centreman. Quality footballer. 80 games
93. Alan Stoneham. 128 games as a half forward/midfielder.
94. Jordan Roughead. 138 games. He saved his best for the 2016 finals campaign.
95. Brian Gilmore. 104 games Premiership ruckman.
96. Brad Hardie Only played 45 games but won a Brownlow and a B&F. Will be remembered for the wrong reasons sadly
97. Clay Smith. 3 knee re-constructions but overcame all to become a Premiership hero.
98. Don McKenzie 137 games 127 goals from HFF. Quality player.
99. Ross Abbey.128 games as a ruck rover. Played for Victoria.
100. Darren Baxter Ruck rover/tagger. Very consistent ball winner. 129 games.
Prince Imperial
21-05-2021, 09:21 PM
Great list.
If I was to choose the 101st it would be Bluey Hampshire. He was a huge warrior for us in the ruck in the post-Dempsey era when we really struggled as a team.
Twodogs
21-05-2021, 09:53 PM
Great list.
If I was to choose the 101st it would be Bluey Hampshire. He was a huge warrior for us in the ruck in the post-Dempsey era when we really struggled as a team.
Jim Sewell is 101st for mine.
boydogs
22-05-2021, 12:39 AM
Barry Hall was a better player than most on the list, though mostly not for us
merantau
22-05-2021, 07:25 AM
Great list.
If I was to choose the 101st it would be Bluey Hampshire. He was a huge warrior for us in the ruck in the post-Dempsey era when we really struggled as a team.
Bluey was actually my 102nd. Indeed he was with us in some tough times.
merantau
22-05-2021, 07:28 AM
Barry Hall was a better player than most on the list, though mostly not for us
Agree with you on this. But as I said my bias was for one club players although I made a few exceptions. I should have slotted Barry in. Only 2 seasons but he won the goalkicking both years and kicked big tallies.
Averaged 3.46 goals per game with us - 39 games 135 goals.
Bernie Quinlan played 177 and averaged 1.36 goals per game.
So, yes I should have had him in the top 30 players as I did include Brad Hardie and Paul Hudson and a few others.
merantau
11-06-2021, 05:37 AM
Who remembers this?
https://youtu.be/BCtmqUe_Yzg
1eyedog
11-06-2021, 09:13 AM
Merantau, You have done a terrific job but there is a chance you are underrating Jose Romero and Tony McGuinness
I thought Jimmy Edmond was a little low at 82 as well. Terrific, very clever player with real presence.
Mitch Wallis at 66 is a little controversial but I guess all best lists are.
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