Our club was born in blood and boots...

[mjp]

So.

I finally got to watch the game last night.

I know I have said this before - and I KNOW it was only a practice game in February - but watching our team play is exhausting. And frustrating.

From the GF team (a different era now, to be sure) we clearly miss performances like the one Tom Boyd put up. But more than that, we miss:

Morris.
Picken.
M. Boyd.
C. Smith
We probably also miss Biggsy.

We have not come close to replacing any of those players. We seriously play like the Footscray Millionaires now - and I'm not sure what team that is but it's not one I have ever supported in the past. Where is the grit and grind. Where are the players who are head over the footy no matter what? We seem to be celebrating Josh Bruce actually not being fat and jumping at a couple of footies? Where is this going? Where are the players we look up to not because of their skills/natural ability but because they play with an unrelenting spirit?

I know, I know. It isn't as if I did that in my own footy career (particularly not between the ages of 18 and 23 when I was all about getting possessions and running between the raindrops on wet days) but for goodness sake.

I didn't like that performance yesterday. I didn't like what I saw from the defenders who seemed to be conceding possession before the ball had been won...and add the mids to that group who simply trail along when the opposition have the ball. I am sitting at my desk right now and have a Bont bobble-head just to my right...he is happy and smiling. Gee I wish I could see an occasional snarl and a "Find an opponent" type approach to defensive transition when he is leading the way.

You know something else? I didn't like what I saw yesterday and I am concerned it is being dissected in terms of ball movement errors and defensive positioning mistakes...of course, we need that...but isn't there (and tell me if I'm wrong) an element of "How about we just have a go" about yesterday's game. Not to mention the last couple of finals we have lucked into.

With recruiting, there is no secret that I have never been in love with the Alex Keath signing - I just thought he was a 'nice player' and an interceptor...last year, he proved me wrong and performed well - I thought he was great and showed real commitment and leadership. Yesterday...well...he was so NICE. Doesn't he LOOK like a player though? Tall. Strong. Nice hair. A lot of our guys LOOK like players. But outside of Liber, Daniel and maybe young West, who else have winning as #1 on their game-day list? Who else would happily say to the coach at half time "Sure, I know I've had 20 possessions already and am having the game of my life but you have told me to shut down Liam Ryan so by hook or by crook that is what I am gonna do?" (Liam Ryan is just an example.)

I am lost with what to do or say. We are just a bunch of great young guys. Good footballers with nice skills. Great in the media - muscles in the right places and great at interviews. We look great onfield when things are going our way. I'm not so sure we have the fight to be a great team despite the names on the page (particularly in the mids). I'm not so sure we have players with the capacity to sacrifice their own games - even for ONE LOUSY PASSAGE OF PLAY - to make sure the opposition don't score. And for the first time ever I am asking myself if we have the right people leading them.

I think I wrote this last year after the Giants game. Stop telling me that we have learned from the final and are out to turn it around. SHOW ME. We had our first chance yesterday to show what we stand for as a group - and I have been incredibly underwhelmed.

The teams of my life-time are the teams of 97 and 2015 - teams that didn't win it all but you knew after round 1 that they were 100% up for the fight - and if they lost, so be it...but they went down fighting. And to be honest - that's really all I am looking for in the team I spend way too much time watching and obsessing over.

[comrade]

Nailed it. There is just something lacking with this side, and we can talk defensive set ups and a muddled forward line but a lot of sins would be absolved if all our players just had a red hot crack every minute of the game.

Outside of a few, we don't play for the team's sake. The fact that Dunks wanted to scoot off to another club so he could be the 'alpha dog' should ring alarm bells about the mindset within the playing group, given how close he is to our captain.

Got a bad feeling 2021 is going to be another incredibly frustrating season. A switched on, prepared and dedicated football side would have romped it in yesterday with Hawks missing 5 of their top 7 or 8 players.

[jeemak]

Mentioned it in the game thread, it was really clear that Hawthorn looked the team more willing to pressure/ fight. Not sure if they were good or it was because we weren't flash.

Will be looking for improvement over the coming weeks.

[bornadog]

Good Analysis of a practise match, but personally I see it as a glorified training run and that is all.

I will wait till the real season before I start to stress out over our performances.

Will be great to see Naughton, Macrae, Wood, Treloar, Duryea back in and maybe a couple more changes - who knows.

[Scraggers]

Mentioned it in the game thread, it was really clear that Hawthorn looked the team more willing to pressure/ fight. Not sure if they were good or it was because we weren't flash.

Will be looking for improvement over the coming weeks.

It loathes me to use the term, but right now I can't think of a better description ... Eye Of The Tiger ... where is the hunger??

[mjp]

Good Analysis of a practise match, but personally I see it as a glorified training run and that is all.

I will wait till the real season before I start to stress out over our performances.

Will be great to see Naughton, Macrae, Wood, Treloar, Duryea back in and maybe a couple more changes - who knows.

That's fair enough BAD - but I am losing faith mate.

What I am talking about is beyond personnel. It is about an attitude that we win and fight no matter what...I mean, you only get ONE CHANCE to make a first impression...why would letting Breust cruise around kicking goals be a good thing - we are playing them again! He is going to roll-up licking his chops and who knows what happens then.

For me we play millionaires footy, we have too many players (starting with that blue blood midfield) who simply will not chase, tackle or pressure and, well...when's it EVER going to change? Why is it accepted by the coaches? I would ask about the on-field leaders but to me they are culpable.

[josie]

Tend to agree we have too many "nice" players. That's why Libba, young West & Vandermeer appeal. I also like the way Jongy gives his all. We need more of that. Liked a passage of play where Wallis ran down a player to lay a tackle as if his life depended upon it. Need more of that too.

I know it was only a practice match against hawks yesterday but what I saw of match I thought our backline looked decidedly dicey (inability to punch ball, stay close to dangerous talls - all problems we've had for a number of years now).

[AshMac]

Can’t think of a practice I’ve ever seen and been impressed by the intensity. Agree we need more players w mongrel in there.

I am astonished that it isn’t a trait Bevo doesn’t seem to value and instill in the players.

[GVGjr]

That's fair enough BAD - but I am losing faith mate.

What I am talking about is beyond personnel. It is about an attitude that we win and fight no matter what...I mean, you only get ONE CHANCE to make a first impression...why would letting Breust cruise around kicking goals be a good thing - we are playing them again! He is going to roll-up licking his chops and who knows what happens then.

For me we play millionaires footy, we have too many players (starting with that blue blood midfield) who simply will not chase, tackle or pressure and, well...when's it EVER going to change? Why is it accepted by the coaches? I would ask about the on-field leaders but to me they are culpable.

Spot on, they played in our jumpers so I expect the team to roll out and do better from an effort perspective than what we saw

We don't seem to learn from previous seasons, last year we had a combination of dubious selections and some half arsed efforts and were found wanting and struggling at times and there were little consequences for doing so

Practice games are important, club games are important and training sessions are important and everyone should bring their best efforts. Whilst there are probably always an element of experimenting in practice and pre-season games it shouldn't diminish that we insist on the players bringing the required effort

Coaches and players need to step it up and as supporters we should be setting a expecting a high level performance every time

Every session and game is important for us

[bornadog]

last year we had a combination of dubious selections

In the eyes of supporters - yes

[bornadog]

That's fair enough BAD - but I am losing faith mate.

What I am talking about is beyond personnel. It is about an attitude that we win and fight no matter what...I mean, you only get ONE CHANCE to make a first impression...why would letting Breust cruise around kicking goals be a good thing - we are playing them again! He is going to roll-up licking his chops and who knows what happens then.

For me we play millionaires footy, we have too many players (starting with that blue blood midfield) who simply will not chase, tackle or pressure and, well...when's it EVER going to change? Why is it accepted by the coaches? I would ask about the on-field leaders but to me they are culpable.

I do get what you mean.

I guess I am hoping the team has matured a bit and we get some better performances than the last few years.

Not long to go till we find out.

[SonofScray]

Laitham is the one player that has it in him to really carry the fan in terms of his footy matching our identity. We might be a thin on the ground for that naturally occurring grit and tenacity.

[jazzadogs]

Need to get McCartney back and teach them to crack in.

[jeemak]

Need to get McCartney back and teach them to crack in.

I think post flag I had a fair bit of shit put on me for suggesting a chunk of what Bevo did was on the back of some of BMac's good work. I still think there's something in it, however, our malaise is in recruiting.

Could be wrong, but I don't think the coach, MC or whoever would ask for nice players who show up conditionally. What we're seeing now is the fruits of things that have been happening for a while on the recruitment front.

[Vred]

I keep telling myself it was a practice game, but yes, you are right, and I've been saying this for awhile.

We lack edge and honestly, balls, something the players you mentioned had. Libba, West, Jong, Vader, only players I see on our team at the moment that will really push themselves no matter the situation. I honestly don't think its our playing group.

Said it once, and will say it again. Bevo has to go, and Bob needs to step away from the club also, I'm sick of this ''We're nice guys / gentle souls / so in touch with our feelings'' schtick they seem to radiate, I don't want us to turn into GWS thugs who are always up for a fight and only play for themselves, but there has to be a middle ground, and I feel we're so far to the 'gentle' side that it greatly affects our game play. It starts from the top, and that's with our head coach, if we do not make it deep into finals this year I'll happily start singing the 'sack Bevo' song for ANY coach that wants to instill some grit into our players (also one who doesn't take 3 seasons to realize we need more than one under-done ruckman on our team)...

[Hotdog60]

I think Bevo is a good coach and he may be stubborn and too friendly with some of the players.
Macca did install a hard defensive end to our game but I've said this before and the loss of Monty could be the telling factor.
could Bevo work with Monty or vise versa who knows but Monty was the sort of person that would tell it like it is and not worry about upsetting the status quo.
It didn't take us long to fall of the perch once Monty left and I don't know if players would work under Monty as the head man as he may upset their feelings and this generation seems a bit to me,me,me.
But as a hard nose assistant I think both coaches complimented each other and the question would be could they work together.
If they were both up for it I would welcome both men at the helm and see how far it would take us.

[comrade]

The Melbourne game should tell us more about our prep for 2021 and I hope we treat it like a full dress rehearsal.

I’m getting flashbacks to last year when Port put us away and there were plenty dismissing it as ‘just a pre-season game’ and then we came out and played 2 of the worst games of footy in rounds 1 & 2 you’d ever see.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The Melbourne game should tell us more about our prep for 2021 and I hope we treat it like a full dress rehearsal.

I’m getting flashbacks to last year when Port put us away and there were plenty dismissing it as ‘just a pre-season game’ and then we came out and played 2 of the worst games of footy in rounds 1 & 2 you’d ever see.

If we're serving this up in Round 1 or 2, I'll personally be driving the bandwagon for wholesale change.

[bornadog]

The Melbourne game should tell us more about our prep for 2021 and I hope we treat it like a full dress rehearsal.

I’m getting flashbacks to last year when Port put us away and there were plenty dismissing it as ‘just a pre-season game’ and then we came out and played 2 of the worst games of footy in rounds 1 & 2 you’d ever see.

They hardly put us away - 10 point to the team who were hot favourites for the flag and only lost 3 H&A matches. The next two were the worst games, especially the Pies one when were were never in it at all.

[bornadog]

Need to get McCartney back and teach them to crack in.

No thanks.

It is a myth that we learnt to "crack in" under Macca. Under Rocket we were one of the top 3 contested sides in the AFL.

[comrade]

They hardly put us away - 10 point to the team who were hot favourites for the flag and only lost 3 H&A matches. The next two were the worst games, especially the Pies one when were were never in it at all.

Yeah, we were just unlucky those first 2 rounds.

[Happy Days]

Sometimes I feel like I’m the only one who remembers the McCartney years.

[bornadog]

Yeah, we were just unlucky those first 2 rounds.

Oh Please........... :rolleyes:

[Mofra]

This thread is the reason I love Wally.
He has completely sacrificed his game and preferred position for the good of the team.
I hope JJ is thinking along the same lines... he says the right things but has yet to put it out on the paddock.

The real question is "who do you trust" from our line up?

Libba
Wally
Naughton
Crozier
Ummm.... McNeil and Vendermeer?
For all his limitations, Cordy gives 100%

Hunter and Bont are close but Bont can't nail a set shot and Hunter works really hard to block space in transition but he hardly a defensive threat.
English is almost there.
Macrae - I love him but can he play elsewhere at 100%? Dunkley wanted out so that's a no from me.

[Mofra]

I think Bevo is a good coach and he may be stubborn and too friendly with some of the players.
Macca did install a hard defensive end to our game but I've said this before and the loss of Monty could be the telling factor.
could Bevo work with Monty or vise versa who knows but Monty was the sort of person that would tell it like it is and not worry about upsetting the status quo.
It didn't take us long to fall of the perch once Monty left and I don't know if players would work under Monty as the head man as he may upset their feelings and this generation seems a bit to me,me,me.
But as a hard nose assistant I think both coaches complimented each other and the question would be could they work together.
If they were both up for it I would welcome both men at the helm and see how far it would take us.
I agree with this - in his playing days if a rookie got a bit "yappy" at training it was Monty who would sit him on his arse during a drill.

There's a reason quite a few of us want Matthew Boyd back as a coach at the club.

[ratsmac]

Great topic. Yeah Yeah it's only a practice match, but the same ol same ol Bulldogs showed up and it irks me too. I remember last year (or the year before) being filthy when GC beat us in a praccy and it was divided here on woof. There were plenty here saying its only a practice match and others as filthy as me. But for me it was the way we played the way we lost and the way we treated the game, the way we couldn't stop them scoring, etc. You train like play, you play like you train.

MVP nailed it naming Picken, Boyd, Morris and C Smith types that we lack. We need our next gen mongrels. Griffen was one of my all time fave bulldog players especially when he was captain. He would leave nothing on the field. He would throw himself into every contest like it was his last, he didn't necessarily have mongrel but he had grit. Its a shame his career ended where it did, but we all know how that panned out. Like others have me Libba has it, West has it, VDM maybe. I think Bailey Williams has potential mongrel/grit, Wallis has grit with no mongrel. Is it coachable, can you coach mongrel into a player or is it instinctive?

I totally agree with the OP and this something is off or just isn't quite right with our team. Anyway hopefully we a jumping at shadows and we click into gear in our next scratch against Melbourne but I'm not hold my breath.

[GVGjr]

The Melbourne game should tell us more about our prep for 2021 and I hope we treat it like a full dress rehearsal.

I’m getting flashbacks to last year when Port put us away and there were plenty dismissing it as ‘just a pre-season game’ and then we came out and played 2 of the worst games of footy in rounds 1 & 2 you’d ever see.

Good point. Practice and preseason games are typically a good indicator of where we are at and I don't understand why anyone would dismiss them as a way of gauging how we are performing unless we have intentionally held back 8 out of our better players for other reasons. Still if you have depth in the playing list like we have it's still not a good excuse. We've been saying this for years but the effort we bring is a direct indicator of how we perform

The likes of Macrae, Treloar and Naughton will make a significant difference for us but we've still got a lot of work to do

[GVGjr]

I think Bevo is a good coach and he may be stubborn and too friendly with some of the players.
Macca did install a hard defensive end to our game but I've said this before and the loss of Monty could be the telling factor.
could Bevo work with Monty or vise versa who knows but Monty was the sort of person that would tell it like it is and not worry about upsetting the status quo.
It didn't take us long to fall of the perch once Monty left and I don't know if players would work under Monty as the head man as he may upset their feelings and this generation seems a bit to me,me,me.
But as a hard nose assistant I think both coaches complimented each other and the question would be could they work together.
If they were both up for it I would welcome both men at the helm and see how far it would take us.

I agree that B-Mac played his role in getting a harder edge with players which is what we needed but we should also never forget the role that Monty played in keeping the players focused. He was very good at motivating players because they knew he was watching them closely and would call them out if he thought they were distracted

[Axe Man]

You can take what you like out of pre season games. In 2016 we beat GWS, yet lost to Melbourne and Collingwood (who both missed the 8 that season). I imagine supporters were unimpressed back then as well.

Practice games don't mean nothing, but they don't mean everything either.

[GVGjr]

I agree with this - in his playing days if a rookie got a bit "yappy" at training it was Monty who would sit him on his arse during a drill.

There's a reason quite a few of us want Matthew Boyd back as a coach at the club.

I suspect we really do miss that Monty and Boyd type intensity around the club. They helped make everyone be more accountable

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Plenty of good points raised in this thread.

Ultimately there's no more excuses for this footy club. Time to deliver.

It's a really big year for the group.

[Mantis]

This thread is the reason I love Wally.
He has completely sacrificed his game and preferred position for the good of the team.


Did he sacrifice his game because he wanted to or had to?

Kudos that he has changed roles, but if he stayed a midfielder he'd be wearing different colours now.

[Mofra]

Did he sacrifice his game because he wanted to or had to?

Kudos that he has changed roles, but if he stayed a midfielder he'd be wearing different colours now.
That's kind of the point. He could have sought midfield time elsewhere but he sacrificed his preferred position for the club.
I wish a few teammates had the same mentality.

[Mofra]

I suspect we really do miss that Monty and Boyd type intensity around the club. They helped make everyone be more accountable
... and Cross' training mania. And Morris. And Picken who was freezing his arse of at Williamstown as a 23 year old in front of a few hundred diehards.

God I hope McNeill makes it. A mature ager who seems to work defensively (based on limited vision) and toiled at state league before getting a chance.

The shame is we used to laud those types. Now a bloke who trains hard but has barely made it into the system (Gardner) cops all sorts of abuse... as does his family. I hope Scott doesn't cop the same criticism.

[mjp]

... and Cross' training mania. And Morris. And Picken who was freezing his arse of at Williamstown as a 23 year old in front of a few hundred diehards.

God I hope McNeill makes it. A mature ager who seems to work defensively (based on limited vision) and toiled at state league before getting a chance.

The shame is we used to laud those types. Now a bloke who trains hard but has barely made it into the system (Gardner) cops all sorts of abuse... as does his family. I hope Scott doesn't cop the same criticism.

I wish I could like this post twice!

[comrade]

The shame is we used to laud those types. Now a bloke who trains hard but has barely made it into the system (Gardner) cops all sorts of abuse... as does his family. I hope Scott doesn't cop the same criticism.

If Scott gets picked repeatedly despite showing very little at AFL level, he will cop the same treatment. Gardner has been thrown to the wolves by Bevo.

[Topdog]

You can take what you like out of pre season games. In 2016 we beat GWS, yet lost to Melbourne and Collingwood (who both missed the 8 that season). I imagine supporters were unimpressed back then as well.

Practice games don't mean nothing, but they don't mean everything either.

If it were something new and something that we hadnt seen 22 times last year then I wouldnt be concerned.

Unfortunately it was very much same old same old.

We do need mongrel in the team.

[Mofra]

If it were something new and something that we hadnt seen 22 times last year then I wouldnt be concerned.

Unfortunately it was very much same old same old.

We do need mongrel in the team.
Round 1 2020.
GWS final 2019.

We simply can't afford to 'cruise' and think we can flick the switch when it matters. This list has shown it just can't do that. I hope we come out breathing fire against Melbourne.

I would go so far to say Libba is almost becoming the most important player on the list.

[Bulldog4life]

So.

I finally got to watch the game last night.

I know I have said this before - and I KNOW it was only a practice game in February - but watching our team play is exhausting. And frustrating.

From the GF team (a different era now, to be sure) we clearly miss performances like the one Tom Boyd put up. But more than that, we miss:

Morris.
Picken.
M. Boyd.
C. Smith
We probably also miss Biggsy.

We have not come close to replacing any of those players. We seriously play like the Footscray Millionaires now - and I'm not sure what team that is but it's not one I have ever supported in the past. Where is the grit and grind. Where are the players who are head over the footy no matter what? We seem to be celebrating Josh Bruce actually not being fat and jumping at a couple of footies? Where is this going? Where are the players we look up to not because of their skills/natural ability but because they play with an unrelenting spirit?

I know, I know. It isn't as if I did that in my own footy career (particularly not between the ages of 18 and 23 when I was all about getting possessions and running between the raindrops on wet days) but for goodness sake.

I didn't like that performance yesterday. I didn't like what I saw from the defenders who seemed to be conceding possession before the ball had been won...and add the mids to that group who simply trail along when the opposition have the ball. I am sitting at my desk right now and have a Bont bobble-head just to my right...he is happy and smiling. Gee I wish I could see an occasional snarl and a "Find an opponent" type approach to defensive transition when he is leading the way.

You know something else? I didn't like what I saw yesterday and I am concerned it is being dissected in terms of ball movement errors and defensive positioning mistakes...of course, we need that...but isn't there (and tell me if I'm wrong) an element of "How about we just have a go" about yesterday's game. Not to mention the last couple of finals we have lucked into.

With recruiting, there is no secret that I have never been in love with the Alex Keath signing - I just thought he was a 'nice player' and an interceptor...last year, he proved me wrong and performed well - I thought he was great and showed real commitment and leadership. Yesterday...well...he was so NICE. Doesn't he LOOK like a player though? Tall. Strong. Nice hair. A lot of our guys LOOK like players. But outside of Liber, Daniel and maybe young West, who else have winning as #1 on their game-day list? Who else would happily say to the coach at half time "Sure, I know I've had 20 possessions already and am having the game of my life but you have told me to shut down Liam Ryan so by hook or by crook that is what I am gonna do?" (Liam Ryan is just an example.)

I am lost with what to do or say. We are just a bunch of great young guys. Good footballers with nice skills. Great in the media - muscles in the right places and great at interviews. We look great onfield when things are going our way. I'm not so sure we have the fight to be a great team despite the names on the page (particularly in the mids). I'm not so sure we have players with the capacity to sacrifice their own games - even for ONE LOUSY PASSAGE OF PLAY - to make sure the opposition don't score. And for the first time ever I am asking myself if we have the right people leading them.

I think I wrote this last year after the Giants game. Stop telling me that we have learned from the final and are out to turn it around. SHOW ME. We had our first chance yesterday to show what we stand for as a group - and I have been incredibly underwhelmed.

The teams of my life-time are the teams of 97 and 2015 - teams that didn't win it all but you knew after round 1 that they were 100% up for the fight - and if they lost, so be it...but they went down fighting. And to be honest - that's really all I am looking for in the team I spend way too much time watching and obsessing over.

After the first match of 1997 I thought we were in for a long season. We were beaten in a home game against Fremantle. The first 2 games in our premiership year "54 we lost. There is a long way to go but can understand your frustration MJP.

[mjp]

After the first match of 1997 I thought we were in for a long season. We were beaten in a home game against Fremantle.

We were beaten by less than a goal in round 1 '97.

I know that this was a 'shock' to everyone in Melbourne but I'm not in Melbourne and was fairly close to what was happening at Freo back then. There were some players in that Dockers side (Clement, Chisolm, Abraham, Ben Allan, Dale Kickett) who were either just waiting for a chance or already playing really good footy - and some others (Parker, McManus, Jones) who would go on to have super solid careers.

Losing by a goal was disappointing but I never thought that the players didn't care.

On numerous occasions in the past two seasons I have genuinely thought we lost because we:

1. Refuse to get our hands dirty around the contest.
2. Allow our opponents too much space when the ball is either in opposition hands or still in dispute.

I know there was a mass celebration back in 2019 when we kicked 20 in a row against the Bombers then 12 or 13 or whatever in a row against the Giants the next week. What I would like to see is us keep the opposition to < 10 goals 5x weeks in a row...and concede no more than 3x goals in a quarter for double that...if we start doing things like that, then I will know we are making progress.

You are right. I am frustrated. We always lose in the same way.

[Bulldog4life]

We were beaten by less than a goal in round 1 '97.

I know that this was a 'shock' to everyone in Melbourne but I'm not in Melbourne and was fairly close to what was happening at Freo back then. There were some players in that Dockers side (Clement, Chisolm, Abraham, Ben Allan, Dale Kickett) who were either just waiting for a chance or already playing really good footy - and some others (Parker, McManus, Jones) who would go on to have super solid careers.

Losing by a goal was disappointing but I never thought that the players didn't care.

On numerous occasions in the past two seasons I have genuinely thought we lost because we:

1. Refuse to get our hands dirty around the contest.
2. Allow our opponents too much space when the ball is either in opposition hands or still in dispute.

I know there was a mass celebration back in 2019 when we kicked 20 in a row against the Bombers then 12 or 13 or whatever in a row against the Giants the next week. What I would like to see is us keep the opposition to < 10 goals 5x weeks in a row...and concede no more than 3x goals in a quarter for double that...if we start doing things like that, then I will know we are making progress.

You are right. I am frustrated. We always lose in the same way.

The Dees had an 11 point win over Richmond so it will be interesting to see how we go against them next. Not sure when it is played couple of weeks I think.

[bornadog]

The Dees had an 11 point win over Richmond so it will be interesting to see how we go against them next. Not sure when it is played couple of weeks I think.

Monday week

[Jam Donuts]

Good Analysis of a practise match, but personally I see it as a glorified training run and that is all.

I will wait till the real season before I start to stress out over our performances.

Will be great to see Naughton, Macrae, Wood, Treloar, Duryea back in and maybe a couple more changes - who knows.

This is in no way criticism of your post Bornadog, but it seems to me that saying it was just a practice match is a convenient cop-out. I remember years ago and i do mean years, that before a practice match the cricket team were still sharing the dressing room with the footy side and EJ was the coach he gave a marvelous pre game address and during this he said and i quote, " it doesn't matter if this is a practice match or a Grand Final, once you put this jumper on and run out on the field you must, you have to give 100%, there were a few more expletives mixed in as well, but as a youngster at the time I was in awe of the man and also his message.

Every year I feel let down by the practice matches, sure they are just that, practice matches, but put that jumper on and give 100%, a winning culture is what we should be cultivating, not some show pony exercise. It is really disappointing to see this happen year in, year out. We are lacking some mongrel and bulldog spirit, we have the players to do some real damage but get some spirit happening or 2021 will be more of same.

[GVGjr]

Every year I feel let down by the practice matches, sure they are just that, practice matches, but put that jumper on and give 100%, a winning culture is what we should be cultivating, not some show pony exercise. It is really disappointing to see this happen year in, year out. We are lacking some mongrel and bulldog spirit, we have the players to do some real damage but get some spirit happening or 2021 will be more of same.

Practice sessions and games are important aspect of building towards a seasons. For example, Tennis players train hard to get the most out of themselves so I agree with you that when our players put on the jumper they should come with the mindset of giving their best
It's easy to write off a result that doesn't go our way as it was "just a practice game" or when the home and away season starts write it off as being underdone or that it's the early part of a long season or use the old chestnut of injuries or a lack of experience etc but I think we have seen enough since the flag that when our intensity drops so does our performances.
The way to address that is to put a higher level of expectation on how we perform in all games and training sessions

There were enough positives in what I saw to be enthused enough around having a good season but there is also plenty to work on as well

[bornadog]

This is in no way criticism of your post Bornadog, but it seems to me that saying it was just a practice match is a convenient cop-out. I remember years ago and i do mean years, that before a practice match the cricket team were still sharing the dressing room with the footy side and EJ was the coach he gave a marvelous pre game address and during this he said and i quote, " it doesn't matter if this is a practice match or a Grand Final, once you put this jumper on and run out on the field you must, you have to give 100%, there were a few more expletives mixed in as well, but as a youngster at the time I was in awe of the man and also his message.

Every year I feel let down by the practice matches, sure they are just that, practice matches, but put that jumper on and give 100%, a winning culture is what we should be cultivating, not some show pony exercise. It is really disappointing to see this happen year in, year out. We are lacking some mongrel and bulldog spirit, we have the players to do some real damage but get some spirit happening or 2021 will be more of same.

When the real games start, the intensity right through the competition increases, because a lot of footy is played above the shoulders, and in many players heads(not just us) they know what is a training run and what is a real match. Of course those players trying to get into the best 22 will try harder.

This is not a cop out this is reality.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We’re just waiting for OUR intensity to go up once the real season starts. It’s been flatlining since 2016. I don’t expect anything to change this year so we’ll once again simply rely on our awesome handball game to get us over the line. What we saw against hawthorn was nothing but a carbon copy of everything we’ve seen the last 4 seasons. We’ve now got one of the most talented midfields ever assembled yet at the same time probably one of the meekest.

I know, I know. It’s only preseason.

[SonofScray]

We’re just waiting for OUR intensity to go up once the real season starts. It’s been flatlining since 2016. I don’t expect anything to change this year so we’ll once again simply rely on our awesome handball game to get us over the line. What we saw against hawthorn was nothing but a carbon copy of everything we’ve seen the last 4 seasons. We’ve now got one of the most talented midfields ever assembled yet at the same time probably one of the meekest.

I know, I know. It’s only preseason.

Share similar concerns and remain adamant that, had I been a position to make the call, Bevo would have been sacked R2 2018. My great fear is that we’ve seen what’s on offer and know exactly what we will get for a while now.

That being said, I’m not feeling quite as grim about our prospects right now. Think there has been just enough moments that suggest the weight talent will carry us somewhere and it’s going to be a battle upstairs or under the jumper that makes the difference.

2 goals and a fight. That’d be what I would want to emphasise, consecutive scores and then emphasise the really aggressive, combative elements of the game to try keep their heads in that dogged space, rather than the millionaire mindset.

[bornadog]

We’re just waiting for OUR intensity to go up once the real season starts. .

You know that is not true. It is natural for human beings to play harder when the real stuff starts.

You watch any preseason game and compare it to a game for points and then a game in the finals. The intensity level is different in all three.

Maybe we will be rubbish this year, who knows, the competition is such that anyone can win any time

[jeemak]

You know that is not true. It is natural for human beings to play harder when the real stuff starts.

You watch any preseason game and compare it to a game for points and then a game in the finals. The intensity level is different in all three.

Maybe we will be rubbish this year, who knows, the competition is such that anyone can win any time

I think what some are arguing is that we've failed to bring intensity in all of these types of games in recent seasons, starting off with a lack of intensity in practice games, followed by a lack of intensity in home and away games to kick off the season, followed by a lack of intensity in first week finals.

The theory being that we don't have the ability to flick the switch for the season, or for finals and we should try bringing it to every type of game we play as a standard.

[azabob]

The concern for me is that all the points raised in the thread have been raised and discussed previously.

I will not be surprised one bit if we are discussing exactly the same points in Feb 2022.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yeah I mean for sure we will lift our intensity for round 1. But relative to the competition, it isn’t enough and is not at the level required to be a serious threat. We might even make the 8 with the suspected level of intensity we have given the talent we have. But I’m sure we all agree we have the pedigree to seriously push for a premiership. I just don’t care for week 1 finals exits where we go out without a whimper.

And as azabob said, this is a recurring theme for years and it’s well evident there is frustration on here with the lack of change at the club to address the same old problems.

[1eyedog]

Is this thread inferring the players don't care enough to try or is it simply comparing 1990s football to 2021 football?

[bornadog]

Is this thread inferring the players don't care enough to try or is it simply comparing 1990s football to 2021 football?

Not at all.

[Topdog]

Is this thread inferring the players don't care enough to try or is it simply comparing 1990s football to 2021 football?

Neither, the effort compared to other 2021 teams was terrible.

That final against the Saints was just painful to watch.

[mjp]

Is this thread inferring the players don't care enough to try or is it simply comparing 1990s football to 2021 football?

I'll answer since it the comments were mine.

Yes - it is saying the players don't care enough about winning to do everything that is required to do so.

I think they DO care about being thought of as "GOOD" players. I think they absolutely care about that. But they are placing importance on things that don't really matter with regards the win-loss column.

[GVGjr]

It's very interesting to me that on a discussion forum people are dismissive of others who go to the effort to encourage conversations and challenge the status quo by adding some well thought out comments or opinions. The paradigm has shifted but we have all been starved for vision and updates on how the club is progressing so to me it's no wonder people are questioning where we are at because it's not like the club is out there selling a vision.

About WOOF

It seems it's more than okay for Bevo to keep reminding the members that as a club we are impatient for success but if a WOOF member exhibits a level of frustration or impatience with how quickly the club is moving forward or if they are learning from mistakes of the previous years then that really isn't okay

I could go on

We are a club that has won one flag since 54 so if many of our supporters are comfortable with that then that's fine but on a discussion forum I can't be critical of members being impatient for success after all the coach is saying it as well

Just a couple of points I want to make, I get why some people don't like reading comments that aren't all 'how good are we?' or ones that have a negative tone to it but.....you all have a chance and the option to drive discussions on here towards a more positive vibe

How many of you who are critical of some of the WOOF members in the Hawks practice game thread actually went to the effort to call out or reflect on the positives that you saw in the game rather than just sitting back and being critical of those who challenged the performance?

How many commented on how great it was to see Jongy back or that Rhylee West is making some progress? How many mentioned how Bailey Smith is getting better and that English looked impressive up forward?
Or did you just say nothing or very little preferring sit back and be critical of those who at least went to the effort to share their opinions because you think it was negative?

You all have the chance to change opinions and shape the direction of conversations towards a more positive reflection of the club. Lets see if you accept the challenge.

[Grantysghost]

I'll answer since it the comments were mine.

Yes - it is saying the players don't care enough about winning to do everything that is required to do so.

I think they DO care about being thought of as "GOOD" players. I think they absolutely care about that. But they are placing importance on things that don't really matter with regards the win-loss column.

That is an interesting observation. Do you think there is anything that will make the penny drop if that's the case? Ergo what will/can we do to change that maybe lack of killer instinct that the really successful sides have. I mean if someone had of told me Trent Cotchin would be a 3 time premiership captain 5 years ago I would have taken those odds.

How does it build, is it something organic or magical like the perfect mix, or is it something we can construct from within.

I agree with the sentiment that every time you put that jumper on you give it your all.

A great example is Besart Berisha the A League's greatest goal scorer. His desire to win is second to none and no matter where or when he plays, it's like its his last game.

I was lucky enough to go to a pre season match close to where I live, with basically no one there and stood right next to where Bes was on the pitch.
He had the rage, the white line fever, the crazy eyes and was so incensed with a part time linesman that called him offside twice he berated him for 5 minutes right in front of me. He wants to win. There are no "practise" matches. But he is a rare beast.

Can you create that or is it something genetic that some have and some don't?
Can you capture lightning in a bottle with the right mix like we did for a season, and the Tigers have done for 4?

I honestly don't know the answer but it's a great topic for discussion, enjoying how this is making me think about the team and what we need to take the extra step.

[josie]

That is an interesting observation. Do you think there is anything that will make the penny drop if that's the case? Ergo what will/can we do to change that maybe lack of killer instinct that the really successful sides have. I mean if someone had of told me Trent Cotchin would be a 3 time premiership captain 5 years ago I would have taken those odds.

How does it build, is it something organic or magical like the perfect mix, or is it something we can construct from within.

I agree with the sentiment that every time you put that jumper on you give it your all.

A great example is Besart Berisha the A League's greatest goal scorer. His desire to win is second to none and no matter where or when he plays, it's like its his last game.

I was lucky enough to go to a pre season match close to where I live, with basically no one there and stood right next to where Bes was on the pitch.
He had the rage, the white line fever, the crazy eyes and was so incensed with a part time linesman that called him offside twice he berated him for 5 minutes right in front of me. He wants to win. There are no "practise" matches. But he is a rare beast.

Can you create that or is it something genetic that some have and some don't?
Can you capture lightning in a bottle with the right mix like we did for a season, and the Tigers have done for 4?

I honestly don't know the answer but it's a great topic for discussion, enjoying how this is making me think about the team and what we need to take the extra step.

I know this is a dog’s forum but agree Besart Berisha is a great example of what we need more of. (And Melb. Victory does too!!). Hoping the footy gods allow Naughts and Libba to play most matches-they are both sparks. Then with Jong & Wallis acting as kindle who give their all and you never know - we might have a recipe for blood & boots like 2015/16 again. Personally would love Tim English to show a bit of a rough but fair stuff too-x fingers that comes with increased size and confidence.

[Before I Die]

The players referenced in the OP were Morris, Boyd, Picken, Biggs and Smith. Except for Smith, all these players got onto an AFL list through the rookie draft. Is this a coincidence or a pointer to the desperation they displayed throughout their decorated careers? Luke Dahlhaus and Lin Jong are another couple of ex-rookies who tick the desperation box. Without exception all these players fell into the 'no elite AFL skills' or 'to many sub-standard skills'. That's why they fell through to the rookie draft and I dare any poster to say they were wildly excited when the Dogs picked them up. And, with the possible exception of Morris, they all copped plenty of criticism for their lack of skills throughout their careers. But what they all had in spades was an insatiable determination to succeed. They understand blood and boots and they are incredibly important to the fabric of the team. I think we are a bit quick to judge our rookies on the basis of their lack of elite skills and begrudge them games earned through hard work on the track and sacrificing their own game for the team plan. I really hope that Roarke Smith, Ryan Gardner, Lachie McNeil and Anthony Scott can force their way into the best 22 along with Lin Jong because that will mean we have grit and determination in equal measure to class and elite skills.

[1eyedog]

I'll answer since it the comments were mine.

Yes - it is saying the players don't care enough about winning to do everything that is required to do so.

I think they DO care about being thought of as "GOOD" players. I think they absolutely care about that. But they are placing importance on things that don't really matter with regards the win-loss column.

This is really interesting.

Kids are becoming increasingly complex today and I do not begrudge the coach who has to turn skilful, nice players into win at all costs contested animals. Players either have this or they don't and while I do believe it can be coached into a young player to a degree that process is becoming increasingly difficult.

I have wondered whether Bevo has a Staff Sargeant approach and my guess is he doesn't. He seems to be a nurturer with little to no plan B. Not like I really know but somewhere in the middle of the two would be good. We saw where Macca's disciplinarian style got us i.e. players walking out the door but the polar opposite does not seem to get us anywhere either, other than as you say essentially having a team of downhill skiers.

[comrade]

This is really interesting.

Kids are becoming increasingly complex today and I do not begrudge the coach who has to turn skilful, nice players into win at all costs contested animals. Players either have this or they don't and while I do believe it can be coached into a young player to a degree that process is becoming increasingly difficult.

I have wondered whether Bevo has a Staff Sargeant approach and my guess is he doesn't. He seems to be a nurturer with little to no plan B. Not like I really know but somewhere in the middle of the two would be good. We saw where Macca's disciplinarian style got us i.e. players walking out the door but the polar opposite does not seem to get us anywhere either, other than as you say essentially having a team of downhill skiers.

It's a good point, and by the time players come into a club at 18/19 etc, their traits are ingrained so a coach only has so much influence.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I don’t think we’re suggesting it can be worked into the players. I think we want to recruit players who naturally have it.

[Topdog]

I don’t think we’re suggesting it can be worked into the players. I think we want to recruit players who naturally have it.

yep and the players listed as ones we missed have something in common.

Morris - rookie
Picken - rookie
M. Boyd - rookie
C. Smith - pick 17 but fought back from 3 knee recos
Biggs - rookie and then sent across to us for a packet of chips

[Grantysghost]

I don’t think we’re suggesting it can be worked into the players. I think we want to recruit players who naturally have it.

Is this a bit of a recruiting tightrope? You want guys with inherent mongrel, who pass the d1ckhead test. I guess the other thing is how hard is it to detect at an early age? Very interesting topic.

[bornadog]

Is this a bit of a recruiting tightrope? You want guys with inherent mongrel, who pass the d1ckhead test. I guess the other thing is how hard is it to detect at an early age? Very interesting topic.

I don't think it is about mongrel.

It is about effort and passion and putting your body on the line. The desire to want the ball and doing everything you can to get the ball. Guys like Picken were not mongrels, but his desire and effort to get the ball was second to none.

This talk about we are to nice is rubbish, it has nothing to do with effort. You can be nice, but when you go for that ball, you give it everything. Big difference.

Have a look at Biggs, he wasn't a mongrel, but boy he gave it everything:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXftCtcv5PU&amp;ab_channel=XuanTruong

[1eyedog]

I don’t think we’re suggesting it can be worked into the players. I think we want to recruit players who naturally have it.

Like a team of Dylan Addisons? So you'd potentially forego a player with better skills for example than one who just cracks in? Having both in spades is like finding the pebble you just threw into the lake even with a high draft hand.

This type of list balance is extremely difficult. From my perspective you either get players with a high level of skill, or, because they don't have a high level of skill they need to make up for it with determination, attitude and a heavy attack on the ball.

Most times you don't even know you have a player who can crack in until they develop. Take Gryphon for example, pure outside evasive player who runs all day turns into a contested ball animal half way through his career. So yes, I think it can be worked into players.

We don't even need a team of these types of players we need someone down back with mongrel = Cordy, someone up forward with mongrel = Naughton and win at all cost players in the middle = Libba and West.

For me this thread stinks a bit and it flies in the face of all the respect that Bont has earned during his career starting with Michael Firrito all the way up to the GWS tactics over the past few years.

He nearly killed Haynes ffs I mean what sort of player do you want him to be?

[jeemak]

The hard part for us is finding who is surplus to needs from a positional perspective, what and who we can get for them at the trade table, and who we can draft to immediately help fix our tendency to not show up at times.

I mean we all get it's a problem, possibly by varying degrees, but a problem anyway. But who do we ship out and who is available to bring in?

It's all good and well to say we should load up on these gritty players, but when push comes to shove it's actually really hard to get them in because everyone is looking for them just as much as we are.

[1eyedog]

The hard part for us is finding who is surplus to needs from a positional perspective, what and who we can get for them at the trade table, and who we can draft to immediately help fix our tendency to not show up at times.

I mean we all get it's a problem, possibly by varying degrees, but a problem anyway. But who do we ship out and who is available to bring in?

It's all good and well to say we should load up on these gritty players, but when push comes to shove it's actually really hard to get them in because everyone is looking for them just as much as we are.

Agreed. And as has been showed above all of ours have been rookies and there are limited spaces even there. I may be confusing a player that cracks in with the OP that wants players who play to win but because list balancing is so hard, especially in the AFL, I feel you simply have to develop the best game plan around what you've got and coach limitations out of players the best you can.

[soupman]

The hard part for us is finding who is surplus to needs from a positional perspective

Oh thats easy.

Schache is behind Bruce, Naughton, English, probably JUH for a forwardline that doesn't even like playing more than two talls.

Hayes is a running winger who we refused to play even when our running winger was out for most of the season and even when he did play we left him on the bench for most of it.

Cavarra is a small pressure forward who we refused to play even when we had a glaring need for one.

Young plays a position we suck at, but he didn't get a go there and bizarrely at the start of the season we seemed to like the idea of playing him as a key forward despite the abundance of talent we had there already as covered by the Schache point.

Anthony Scott has been talked up as "putting pressure on midfield places", and we seem to be trying to find a role for him considering his role in defence last week, yet he is behind Treloar, Bont, Macrae, Smith, Dunkley, Hunter as first choice mids and we are going to have a hard enough time trying to fit Lipinski, Butler and West in the side ahead of him.

The point is it isn't hard to find list spots if we just stop clogging it up with players we refuse to play or players we already have an abundance of.


What and who we can get for them at the trade table,

Nothing. Because nobody rates them, including possibly us. Thats the point.


Who we can draft to immediately help fix our tendency to not show up at times.


No one specifically, although I have argued to mixed reviews for someone who can fill a role like Frawley or Kyle Hartigan, but we should turning our list over a lot more and making players fight for their spot on the list. I'm down for the argument "you can't teach the desperation into players" but making them actually earn their list spots could give them a kick up the arse. We've basically given multiple seasons of AFL wages to Roarke Smith, Ben Cavarra, Brad Lynch, Fergus Greene, Lewis Young, Will Hayes, Lukas Webb, Declan Hamilton, Jordon Sweet, Buku Khamis, Callum Porter etc for no return and no justification. If we were a bit more cut throat maybe there'd be a bit more desperation to retain their jobs from some of our list.

[mjp]

For me this thread stinks a bit and it flies in the face of all the respect that Bont has earned during his career starting with Michael Firrito all the way up to the GWS tactics over the past few years.

He nearly killed Haynes ffs I mean what sort of player do you want him to be?

I am not questioning the 'mongrel' component of ANY of our players. Quite honestly, I could care less about this and I'm surprised the thread has turned into one where I questioned our players willingness to sacrifice individual stats for the good of the team into one talking about 'mongrel' and whether or not Rian Griiffin was a 'Contested Ball Animal'...

The players I mentioned at the start as being 'MISSED' and not replaced - Matty Boyd, Picken, Smith, Biggs and Morris - all had some of what is being referred too as mongrel in them...but there is more too it than that simple cliche.

It is the ability to impact on games without the ball - through pressure and sacrifice. Maybe Biggs doesn't belong in the same company as the others - and i have been as critical of Smith as anyone on this board - but each of them had a willingness to climb the light-tower at the MCG if it meant preventing an opponent getting an easy touch. I think Morris had 3x kicks in the GF and could very well have been our most effective player.

Since this has suddenly turned into a Bont thread - without wanting to compare Bont to Cotchin, I don't think there is any doubt that key amongst the Richmond post 2016 'revolution' has been the willingness of their captain to sacrifice personal numbers for team outcomes. Now, in the Tiges 'model' Dusty is the star/best player (not Cotchin) so the comparison probably doesn't hold since we need Bont's output WITH the footy as much as ever...

Or do we? Maybe - but what I do know is we need him to lead the way through accountability and defensive actions...did anyone say the words 'guessing' and 'guarding space' and use it in the same sentence as the names 'Bont', Macrae, JJ or English? These guys read the ball well so rather than taking an opponent they make assumptions about what the opposition are doing and run 'there'...when it works, it works. When it doesn't, well.

I don't know the answer. I wish I did. I just watch with interest as we recruit Sam Lloyd, Josh Schache and (this is unfair as he hasn't played) Adam Treloar to fill the gaps left by those players I mentioned earlier. The new players are all GOOD players - I have no issue with that. They are highly skilled players. But I just wonder if they have the same willingness to self sacrifice as those who came before. The point has been made 'how do you recruit "THAT"'. Well, I don't know. But someone does 'cos we had them all on our list.

[Mofra]

Or do we? Maybe - but what I do know is we need him to lead the way through accountability and defensive actions...did anyone say the words 'guessing' and 'guarding space' and use it in the same sentence as the names 'Bont', Macrae, JJ or English? These guys read the ball well so rather than taking an opponent they make assumptions about what the opposition are doing and run 'there'...when it works, it works. When it doesn't, well.
It might be easier to list the guys who do "guard space".
I'm convinced Daniel does - hence he often found himself against taller opponents when he first shifted to defence.
Hunter does despite criticism to the contrary.
Wallis does, even if you can measure it with a sundial.
Vandermeer and Richards do with limited examples.
Naughton kind of does, but he really does pressure the ball carrier well for a tall.

I'm running out of names.

[mjp]

It might be easier to list the guys who do "guard space".


Bont
Macrae
JJ
Dunkley
Crozier (last half of the year)
Daniel
Wood

You could prob name a few more.

The finger pointing can probably start and stop with the mids tho.

[comrade]

Wait, is guarding space good or bad?

[mjp]

Wait, is guarding space good or bad?

LOL.
Guarding Space = BAD.

Unless you are going a 'full zone' in which everyone guards space. But in a game like football when possession is retained without opposition in the event of a mark, you can start in a zone but an opposition play-on simply has to trigger an effort to find an actual opponent.

[comrade]

LOL.
Guarding Space = BAD.

Unless you are going a 'full zone' in which everyone guards space. But in a game like football when possession is retained without opposition in the event of a mark, you can start in a zone but an opposition play-on simply has to trigger an effort to find an actual opponent.

I thought so, but then Mofra started reeling off names like it was a good thing and now I'm confused.

[Mofra]

I thought so, but then Mofra started reeling off names like it was a good thing and now I'm confused.
I read it as working hard to guard against the opposition outlet possession i.e. working both ways.
Our defence was under pressure last year because a lot of players tend to run a lot harder when we have possession than when we don't. Most kids who were stars as juniors probably were taught to play that way.

The Dusty scenario is an interesting one because he clearly is a one-way runner but gets away with it because other players (primarily Cotchin) cover for that. Cotchin - a brownlow winner - has sacrificed his game for the team. That goes back to the topic of the thread really, who do we have that is prepared to sacrifice their game of the good of the team?
I'm adamant Wallis does and Bont seems ok to play forward more. Who else?

[jeemak]

Oh thats easy.

Schache is behind Bruce, Naughton, English, probably JUH for a forwardline that doesn't even like playing more than two talls.

Hayes is a running winger who we refused to play even when our running winger was out for most of the season and even when he did play we left him on the bench for most of it.

Cavarra is a small pressure forward who we refused to play even when we had a glaring need for one.

Young plays a position we suck at, but he didn't get a go there and bizarrely at the start of the season we seemed to like the idea of playing him as a key forward despite the abundance of talent we had there already as covered by the Schache point.

Anthony Scott has been talked up as "putting pressure on midfield places", and we seem to be trying to find a role for him considering his role in defence last week, yet he is behind Treloar, Bont, Macrae, Smith, Dunkley, Hunter as first choice mids and we are going to have a hard enough time trying to fit Lipinski, Butler and West in the side ahead of him.

The point is it isn't hard to find list spots if we just stop clogging it up with players we refuse to play or players we already have an abundance of.



Nothing. Because nobody rates them, including possibly us. Thats the point.



No one specifically, although I have argued to mixed reviews for someone who can fill a role like Frawley or Kyle Hartigan, but we should turning our list over a lot more and making players fight for their spot on the list. I'm down for the argument "you can't teach the desperation into players" but making them actually earn their list spots could give them a kick up the arse. We've basically given multiple seasons of AFL wages to Roarke Smith, Ben Cavarra, Brad Lynch, Fergus Greene, Lewis Young, Will Hayes, Lukas Webb, Declan Hamilton, Jordon Sweet, Buku Khamis, Callum Porter etc for no return and no justification. If we were a bit more cut throat maybe there'd be a bit more desperation to retain their jobs from some of our list.

Good post, but not sure I completely agree. You can only play 22 each week, some players are preferred over others and if you ditch the latter then they're probably likely to be replaced by players over which others will be preferred. Coaches have their reasons for it, and just because some players are out of favour at one point it doesn't always mean that will continue to be the case.

As for not turning the list over enough, players have to be given a chance to develop and you've got to try and build depth in your system. It's a balance, and I think we've gotten a bit better at it recently.

[bornadog]

you've got to try and build depth in your system. It's a balance, and I think we've gotten a bit better at it recently.

Over the years lots of posters have cried about depth, and I feel for once we have depth. KPD is a bit of a worry, but I am not that worried when I look at the stats and we certainly are not the worst at defending. (about mid table, but kicking goals top 6 last year) If you take out the first two rounds we would be even higher.

[Grantysghost]

Over the years lots of posters have cried about depth, and I feel for once we have depth. KPD is a bit of a worry, but I am not that worried when I look at the stats and we certainly are not the worst at defending. (about mid table, but kicking goals top 6 last year) If you take out the first two rounds we would be even higher.

It's probably one of the better lists in my time as a supporter.

[comrade]

This was posted on the Richmond BigFooty board and I thought it was relevant to some points raised here about why Richmond have kicked on since 2016:


TLDR – We pressure the opposition so that they rush their possessions and we intercept, our attacking style controls the ball enough and this leads to massive numbers of repeat efforts, so we wear teams out.



I’ve been thinking of this for ages and decided to write about why our game plan under Dimma is different, and how it keeps winning.

Why? Firstly I’m that kinda guy. Secondly many posters have, I reckon, the wrong way of thinking about how we do what we do.

The key thing is that I believe we have a different worldview on how to play the game. In other words, Richmond thinks about how the game actually works differently. That means we do things differently. We recruit, develop, train and play to our way of thinking, not the typical way used by other clubs, the media, commentators and most AFL fans.

I’m not putting in actual stats, because they’re hard to find and it’d make this post way too long when it’s already too long.

Three things that underpin everything else in this post

There an old bit of wisdom that there are 3 phases in footy. 1) You have the ball, 2) they have the ball, and 3) the ball is in contest. I propose that we play with 2 ‘shadow’ phases in between. When we or they have the ball, but the ball carrier is under pressure, so they can’t do a clean disposal. That is, we don’t use the normal 3 phases thinking and it advantages us.
We are the best repeat effort team in the AFL. This is because we went out and recruited the best repeat sprinters we could find. And we’ve trained for repeat sprints/efforts in a way other teams don’t. This means that our squad has the best innate ability to do repeat sprints/efforts in the AFL. This is really important. The stats I have seen we are 10% ahead of the next best AFL team. After that the gap just increases. I equate repeat sprints to repeat efforts (not just a sprint, but getting involved in play) more broadly. When playing well we are a better repeat effort team than any other in the comp.
Winning contested ball doesn’t matter much. When Dimma came in he was aware that the Hawks stats guy/s had shown that simply winning the ball had no correlation with goals. What is important was the first clean possession 2-3 meters from the contest. This is the heart of our game plan. Go back to my point 1. This means that phase 3, the ball is in contest isn’t related to winning the game directly. What is important is having the ability to truly control what you do with the ball when you have it, and to take away the ability of the opposition to control what they do after they win a contest.
What we do is try to is increase the duration of the shadow phase I mentioned before. This is because 1) we create turnovers from their pressured possessions, and 2) we have a unique style that assist us in breaking from contest and getting it forward.

To explain, starting from a contested situation. What we do is play one or two guys in the contest. Their goal isn’t mainly to win the ball, it’s to stop clean ball from the contest for other teams and to allow us to have an outnumber around the contest. Therefore, our inside mids are usually outnumbered (watch to see this in games). So Cotch went from Brownlow to good possessions but not elite. The club says that he sacrificed his game and that in the stats we cared about he was amazing. I reckon these stats are about setting the stage where we get that shadow phase ball. Cotch, Graham etc are playing to make sure the contest doesn’t allow easy ball out for the opposition. When the ball comes out we have an outnumber. We tackle them if they get it and force a turnover, if we get it the release is super-fast and often unclean. So don’t look for Tiger contested possessions, look for scores from contests.

Next comes the repeat effort side of how we play. We cause contest after contest and knock the ball on. Because we are the best repeat effort team in the AFL we continue to get outnumbers and shut down the oppo when they get the ball. Over time we slowly grind them down and the initial advantage in outnumbers slowly increases. By trying to force the shadow phases we make the whole game about repeat efforts. And we know that we will win that contest.

So what we do is ‘simply’ apply a heap of pressure in a certain way that forces the game into a place where clean possession is really hard for the opposition. So we create “chaos’ to most observers. But because we are set up for that it’s controlled chaos – our control, their chaos. The longer we can keep that game style going the greater our in-built advantage.

This is why we defend how we do and why when we get the ball we break fast through forward handball and ground kicks forward. We use that repeat effort advantage to create space for us and to grind the opposition down.

Our defence works off this style as well. Because it’s so hard to get out clean ball teams will dump kick it forward. So we set up 30-50 meters of the contest and intercept and then rebound. We’re not shutting it down like the Saints did in their prime years ago. We’re creating a free form game where you simply have to go again and again and again chasing dirty ball.

Our forward set up is also keyed off this. Because of our style we often move it forward under pressure. So we use forward handball from the contest. This does 4 things; 1) it forces the oppo to run and so wears them down, 2) it allows us an controllable way of moving the ball when we’re under pressure, 3) it makes the players face our goal (discussed later) and 4) opens up our forward line (defences have to play higher because we run it in so much – leaving JR/Tom/Dusty one out). When we get space we tend to kick the ball long to the top of the square for Tom/Jack/Dusty, go for a free player further out, or just to put dirty ball in and use our strong forwards and swarming pressure to get crumbed goals.

Our style of forward handballs and extending the contest turns the game to face our goals. This means that in almost all circumstances the ball is likely to go our way, and if the oppo gets the ball they have to turn around or move the ball backwards. By making the play go our direction we can make 50:50 contests almost always move the ball towards our goal. Look at the 2020 GF (2nd half) and watch how from the contest we knock on or kick the ball about 5-10 meters. This means that we move the contest for the ball towards our goals in a way where we are always coming along heading toward goal. As we do this it causes the oppo to do repeat efforts, and turns their set up into what we want. Someone gets a break and we can move the ball fast by foot or hand without pressure. But otherwise we just keep on doing something simple and easy – move the ball 5 to 10 meters on and try to create that break. Always increasing pressure as we get closer to our goal. Very simple, not easy, and relentless.

OK so we have this strange game style probably never played in the AFL before – cause we deliberately built a squad to do it. Around 2014/15 we started to recruit massive repeat effort players, and focused our training on repeat efforts – bore fruit in 2017. We have deliberately looked for the best repeat effort (usually running) player when everything else is even. The draft guys way back when realised that this attribute was undervalued in drafting, so we just kept recruiting these players. This means 1) our squad has more innate repeat effort ability, and 2) our development/training increases this advantage. Then we built a game style around this ability as I’ve described.

How do we get beaten nowadays? Good question BF.

We get beaten when we allow clean possession from contests and/or ball movement that goes around our structures. Sometimes teams get hold of our inside mids and we get ripped apart. Because if they can get that clean ball from the contest we are set up with way too much space. The clean ball goes outside of our set up and then because our defence is so deep for the intercept they have acres of space. Goodbye Irene! The other way is when teams get the ball, say in defence, and then move it around using safe kicks until we are out of position and they can run/kick through our set up and the same defensive problems come up. In both cases teams take that shadow phase away from us.

So what are we doing? We’ve realised that sometimes we just don’t have the inside mids to go with elite teams. So we’re fixing that – Prestia and game plan. We got Tom Lynch because we needed that tall marking outlet target. We have also adjusted to the kick the ball around style by adjusting our teasing distance. In 2020 we adjusted our centre contests as well.

When you watch our games see what happens if the contests are static, that is they occur in one spot. We tend to either lose them or cause a ball up. What we try and do is get the ball moving around. This means that instead of a few specialist inside mids getting hands on the ball, most players have to go inside and also play outside. It means that many players are doing many efforts. Because we train for this style of contest we usually win them. Teams then have to chase and we’ll simply grind them into the ground.

Summary, our main point of difference is that we try to make the game a game of multiple efforts, continually moving. This wears teams out. It also causes implied pressure – you know pressure is coming so you rush what you do. This can end up crushing teams as they tire and then start to do stupid things.

Recruitment and development of players: IMHO many people think that players that tick the typical metrics are better than those that are worse at those metrics but awesome in the shadow phases. Case in point, Jack Graham – he causes the game to be played our way through pressure and continuous efforts. Cotch has changed his game to impact how the game is played more than racking up stats. George and Dan R play to lock the ball in and move it forward (often messily) more than kick goals. We look to players who can do repeat efforts. Obviously, we look for pure talent even if they don’t have that repeat effort ability yet (RCD when drafted). But by consistently picking players that have the ability go more often than others we stay ahead of the rest in how we win games. The other thing I think we look for is ability to simply do things in contests and under pressure. Maybe not genius, but creativity and positive play. This is different to pure traditional footy skills, perhaps more about attitude.

This style is very taxing, which is partly why we try to ramp things up coming into September. We’re learning to do that better.

And IMHO we can win premierships without Dusty – it’s just harder. As in, Dusty makes about 3 or 4 goals difference. So we’d win 17, 19 and 20. But much tougher in 17 and 20.



Long post, but I tried to get my thoughts down. People think we’re playing some sort of ‘normal’ game style. We’re not. A lot of the key things we do aren’t in any published stats. Right now we are the only team built to do what we do. Hopefully we’ll stay ahead of the pack and our style, which is built for finals, will endure.

[jeemak]

So they essentially punish teams who get sucked into the contest, like we do when playing poorly, and or try and move the ball forward by hand to take territory and back their repeat effort players to nullify, continue to get it forward, or pressure the opposition after their own turning over of the ball. All due to their repeat effort prowess.

Pretty reasonable hypothesis.

Taking it on face value, it would be interesting to see where our repeat effort stats in game and on the track rank. Probably somewhere around the middle I guess.

[Mofra]

So they essentially punish teams who get sucked into the contest, like we do when playing poorly, and or try and move the ball forward by hand to take territory and back their repeat effort players to nullify, continue to get it forward, or pressure the opposition after their own turning over of the ball. All due to their repeat effort prowess.

Pretty reasonable hypothesis.

Taking it on face value, it would be interesting to see where our repeat effort stats in game and on the track rank. Probably somewhere around the middle I guess.
Interestingly we have given a good account of ourselves against Richmond in recent years, save for one injury hit performance.

In my view that's a tick for playing our own game to maximise the strengths of our playing list rather than just copying the latest trend.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

To any trained eye, that post isn't anything ground-breaking. Richmond have never been the most skilful nor the most talented across any individual line, but collectively he's right in that they effectively grind teams down mentally (inferred pressure) and physically.

It's both good coaching and development.

His end point about winning without Dusty is wrong - they simply don't win last year v Geelong without him. The final score is irrelevant, Martin kept them in the game in the first half and then won it in the second half. A 'small blowout' at the end flattered the game.

My question is, how do sides combat what they are doing?
1 - Meet fire with fire and recruit/develop/play the same way? St Kilda perhaps an example of this.
2 - Emphasis on winning the ball and using it well, maintaining your own systems to then lock the ball into your forward half? This hasn't seemingly worked. We're a side which probably fits into this category.
3 - A strong emphasis on a skill/decision making based game ala Hawthorn of the 3-peat. Not sure any sides are so highly skilled that can match what Hawthorn did. GWS were a chance a few years ago but have lost too many.

[comrade]

Saints definitely feel like they are trying to play a Richmond-esque, surge momentum style of footy, just without the real top end A graders.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

To add to my post above, if we are to give the benefit of doubt, Richmond's planning has been genius.

With an 18 team competition, the talent pool has significantly decreased. Talent is spread thin across 18 teams as opposed to 16 or less, so any attempt to be the most 'skilful' or the 'hardest/most contested' is almost a lottery at this point.

However, one thing that is achievable despite the reduced talent pool, is honing in on only drafting/developing players with a very specific skill-set of repeat efforts.

Who knows if they were that smart in the early days, or it just turned out that way, but it's interesting upon reflection.

[The bulldog tragician]

Wasn’t this very similar to our style in ‘16...and if so, how have they managed to maintain it? It’s often said our style is taxing and demanding. Do they just have more A-graders so the repeat efforts get more reward?