Exploding the Terry Wallace myth.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Terry Wallace has built his reputation and career on the '97 and '98 years with the Dogs.
The general perception is that he, as a genius coach, took a shabby list of perennial losers into two consecutive preliminary finals.

Let's diagnose this perception.

The Bulldogs had already made the finals in '92 (prelim) '94 (1st semi) and '95 (Qual).
So after the disaster of '96 Terry inherited a team that had played finals 3 out of the last 5 years.
This was a good list and a good team. 3 Brownlow medalists. ( Wynd, Libba and Chris)
Young gun leaders in West Johnson Smith and Darcy, and a solid line up of finals experienced players. '96 was an unexplainable aberration. '97 prelim was a tragedy I'm still not over, but '98, when he left Smith on Robran, and Robran,( who was never really a GREAT player) tore us apart was unforgivable. Robran was about 2 foot taller than Smith so they just bombed it long to him and Smith just had to cop the humiliation as Robran kicked 6 easy goals on him.

After that we slipped from 6th to 8th to 10th to 12th (Terry jumped ship) to WOODEN SPOON.

Along the way he traded away Loved players like Leon Cameron and Brett Montgomery,
which damaged the very fibre of the club. ( I know Eagleton FINALLY came through, but along the way Monty collected a best and fairest, an all Australian and a premiership.) Wallace also (we all know) STOLE Nathan Brown. He persisted in drafting skinny midfielders year after year and that's one of the reasons why we still have no key forwards today.

Then came the fanfare of Terry signing a 5 year deal with the Tigers ( surprise surprise, see above accusation).
At the time he said he chose the Tigers over the Hawks because the Tigers list was more advanced and closer to premiership success.......... But then last year he told impatient Tiger fans he had " inherited a train wreck of a list and don't expect any success until 2011". Meanwhile the Hawks look genuine top 4 material.
Hello?!?!?

And once again he is insistent on drafting wave upon wave of skinny midfielders.......


His win loss ratio since joining the Tigers is 36%
Myth busted?

Any thoughts?

[hujsh]

Because he wins the occasional game he shouldn't he gets the genius tag (see Essendon 2000 and Adelaide 06)

A greasy rat in my eys

[katemeehan]

A greasy rat in my eys


same goes here

[The Coon Dog]

I'm trying to couch this in the nicest possible way without meaning to offend anyone, so sorry to anyone (especially DD as the thread starter), but there just seem to be too many threads (perhaps a combination of BF & here) about Terry Wallace.

I loved what he did when he was our coach, but would much rather read about another Terry W who coached us. His blood, like all of ours is not only red, but has white & blue in it too.

I suppose I'm saying I'm over Plough, though you are spot on with your analysis DD.

[mjp]

I will say only this.

Firstly, much time has passed. We all need to move on.

Secondly, in '97 and '98 he was a key part of the two most enjoyable seasons of footy I have had as a Footscray supporter - remembering I was WA born (and in 1971). I try to remember him from those seasons.

Thirdly, he is a life member of our club and has contributed far more than many others who came before and others still who have gone since (though, I happily admit not as much as some others).

Fourth, players who he coached have moved on and are now in regular contact with him - they were disappointed at the time but most have forgiven him and moved on.

Fifth, whatever he is like as a coach is now Richmond's problem - but he does have the ability to get his players believing in his plans (otherwise events such as the Essendon win never would have been possible).

[westdog54]

If this thread were a Bay 13 thread on Bigfooty, I'd be all over it.

Here though, I'm with MJP and TCD. Its time to move on.

[Dancin' Douggy]

OK mjp and westdog 54. Time to move on but just let me say this.

My main point is that the bulldog team he inherited was not a bunch of no hopers, as is the popular perception, and his whole reputation is built on what he achieved with that list. Other than that, his track record as a coach is pretty poor

Also, he is actually still out there coaching so I'm not dredging up a long forgotten figure from the past.
I went to the Richmond v Geelong practice match and Richmond played like the team that's paid to look like goof balls against the Harlem Globetrotters. ( the Washington Generals?).
It was the worst I've ever seen an AFL club play. And I went to every dogs game in '96!

I guess I'm more interested in analysing his career and his carefully constructed image rather than just bitch and moan about him..............
Though bitching and moaning about Terry is obviously a very popular pastime!

[LostDoggy]

Terry is very similar to Rocket Eade. Both seem very good at motivating players for one or 2 yrs. Normally their best work is done in that period. Then they struggle to keep players up at the same level ( the message wears thin).

[Twodogs]

Thirdly, he is a life member of our club and has contributed far more than many others who came before and others still who have gone since (though, I happily admit not as much as some others).






Damn straight!

Terry didnt just front up halfway through '96 and stay until R21 2002. He was a double best and fairest, long term match commitee member and was a member of the coaching staff for more than 10 years.


My comment on him and his departure is while the method could've been it was time for us and him to move on anyway.

[westdog54]

OK mjp and westdog 54. Time to move on but just let me say this.

My main point is that the bulldog team he inherited was not a bunch of no hopers, as is the popular perception, and his whole reputation is built on what he achieved with that list. Other than that, his track record as a coach is pretty poor

Also, he is actually still out there coaching so I'm not dredging up a long forgotten figure from the past.
I went to the Richmond v Geelong practice match and Richmond played like the team that's paid to look like goof balls against the Harlem Globetrotters. ( the Washington Generals?).
It was the worst I've ever seen an AFL club play. And I went to every dogs game in '96!

I guess I'm more interested in analysing his career and his carefully constructed image rather than just bitch and moan about him..............
Though bitching and moaning about Terry is obviously a very popular pastime!

LOL, Washington Generals.

Might have to use that analogy on Bay 13.

If you were to post your OP word for word in a bay 13 thread, the response you'd get would be huge.

[bornadog]

I will say only this.

Firstly, much time has passed. We all need to move on.

Secondly, in '97 and '98 he was a key part of the two most enjoyable seasons of footy I have had as a Footscray supporter - remembering I was WA born (and in 1971). I try to remember him from those seasons.

Thirdly, he is a life member of our club and has contributed far more than many others who came before and others still who have gone since (though, I happily admit not as much as some others).

Fourth, players who he coached have moved on and are now in regular contact with him - they were disappointed at the time but most have forgiven him and moved on.

Fifth, whatever he is like as a coach is now Richmond's problem - but he does have the ability to get his players believing in his plans (otherwise events such as the Essendon win never would have been possible).

Spot on. His contribution to our club both as a player and coach must not be forgotten. I don't think we have ever played in finals four years in a row. As a player, he played some great games and won a B&F .

We were all upset the way he left the club, but from his point of view, the club was in dire straights with finance & facilities at the WO and big money was put on the table for him to jump ship - you can't blame any one for that. He didn't know that Rose was going to do what he has done.

As a coach, you are only as good as the players available to you and at Richmond, you have got to say, he is only now starting to build a team around the young players they have. Its going to be at least a few more years before they will play finals, but with the culture there, Terry may not be around to see it and some other coach will take the glory.

[col]

Nice work Dancin' Douggie - Wallace's feats as a footy coach have never impressed me at all.

I've included your post on our footy-tipping forum, http://dgesfootytalk.wordpress.com/

Hope that is ok with you.

Cheers Col

[Dancin' Douggy]

Nice work Dancin' Douggie - Wallace's feats as a footy coach have never impressed me at all.

I've included your post on our footy-tipping forum, http://dgesfootytalk.wordpress.com/

Hope that is ok with you.

Cheers Col

No worries Col.
By the way, a lot of people have stood up to defend Wallace as a clubman and a person on this thread. I have no problems with that but I'm merely assessing him as a coach. It's hard to defend his record and Richmond on Sunday were woeful again. Feel free to revise his win loss ratio down as well!

[1eyedog]

Terry who?

[DHP]

Plough made a great contribution to the FFC. No doubt about that. We were all there in '97 and it was great. I think if Plough had his time again, playing a young N. Brown and and a seriously hurt Jose R. against Billy who had come out of suspension would cross his his mind.

But full marks to what the man did in his time.

[Dry Rot]

Nice work Dancin' Douggie - Wallace's feats as a footy coach have never impressed me at all.



Welcome to WOOF Col. :)

[ledge]

Terry is very similar to Rocket Eade. Both seem very good at motivating players for one or 2 yrs. Normally their best work is done in that period. Then they struggle to keep players up at the same level ( the message wears thin).

Sorry i cant agree with this one, Eade has a very astute brain where as Wallace just liked to think out of the square,which will work at times.
Eade seems to have a plan where Wallace seemed to work with what he had and after what, 3 years at Richmond? They are getting worse.
I believe we had Eade doing way too much first 2 years and this year him just concentrating on football has already started to show his worth.

[alwaysadog]

Terry Who?

[dog town]

Terry Wallace has built his reputation and career on the '97 and '98 years with the Dogs.
The general perception is that he, as a genius coach, took a shabby list of perennial losers into two consecutive preliminary finals.

Let's diagnose this perception.

The Bulldogs had already made the finals in '92 (prelim) '94 (1st semi) and '95 (Qual).
So after the disaster of '96 Terry inherited a team that had played finals 3 out of the last 5 years.
This was a good list and a good team. 3 Brownlow medalists. ( Wynd, Libba and Chris)
Young gun leaders in West Johnson Smith and Darcy, and a solid line up of finals experienced players. '96 was an unexplainable aberration. '97 prelim was a tragedy I'm still not over, but '98, when he left Smith on Robran, and Robran,( who was never really a GREAT player) tore us apart was unforgivable. Robran was about 2 foot taller than Smith so they just bombed it long to him and Smith just had to cop the humiliation as Robran kicked 6 easy goals on him.

After that we slipped from 6th to 8th to 10th to 12th (Terry jumped ship) to WOODEN SPOON.

Along the way he traded away Loved players like Leon Cameron and Brett Montgomery,
which damaged the very fibre of the club. ( I know Eagleton FINALLY came through, but along the way Monty collected a best and fairest, an all Australian and a premiership.) Wallace also (we all know) STOLE Nathan Brown. He persisted in drafting skinny midfielders year after year and that's one of the reasons why we still have no key forwards today.

Then came the fanfare of Terry signing a 5 year deal with the Tigers ( surprise surprise, see above accusation).
At the time he said he chose the Tigers over the Hawks because the Tigers list was more advanced and closer to premiership success.......... But then last year he told impatient Tiger fans he had " inherited a train wreck of a list and don't expect any success until 2011". Meanwhile the Hawks look genuine top 4 material.
Hello?!?!?

And once again he is insistent on drafting wave upon wave of skinny midfielders.......


His win loss ratio since joining the Tigers is 36%
Myth busted?

Any thoughts?
Way to simplistic for mine.

Not a great Wallace fan but the bugger can coach.

To compare the team under Alan Joyce that scraped into the finals and was never going to beat any serious contender to the team that came within a few errors of a grand final is ludicrous.

Say what you like about what he is doing now or about how he left the club but you cant take away the success he had early on with us.

Would the club be here today had Joyce or 95% of potential coaches held the job in 97/98 in stead of Wallace? Tough call IMO.

[LostDoggy]

Wasn't turf for the Punt Rd Oval included in his 5 year plan? Now its the reason why they are crap.
Fair dinkum this guy is a better spinner than Warne.

[alwaysadog]

DD...haven't watched Year of the Dogs for a while, but wasn't '96 the year that we had some severe injuries like Wynd and Croft being sidelined? Would explain a lot. I remember expecting a big improvement at the start of '97 and it wasn't because of the coach.

That's just some of it. Players hadn't trained properly before the season started, the rudder got lost and was never found.

[FrediKanoute]

I generally don't like to get drawn into commenting on Wallace, but having read a few things posted here I think I should. As a club we have a tendency to "hate" with a passion coaches who either "failed" us or "left" for greener pastures and Wallce for mine fits into this category. Like Malthouse before him he left because the club was essentialy bankrupt and he would have had to coach under severe dures which realistically would have hadversely affected his market value. I doubt Wallace would have done much better than Rhode with the players avaialable and budget cuts that were made. So did Wallace do a bad thing to jump ship and preserve his repiutation? No more than I or any other professional would do since you reputation is what gest you a job 99% of the time and in 2002/3 Wallace was regarded as a bloody good coach.I was disappointed when Wallace left, disappointed with his comments and disappointed that it went against his comments earlier in the season, but personally I ruled a line under the mattter and moved on (though I was horrified when we appointed Rhode.....).

When Wallace took the Richmond job, Nathan Brown being there aside, I couldn't undestand why he would make that decision. Sure the money must have been good, and yep, the timing was probably right given he'd been out of footy for 18 months or so, but realistically if there is a poisoned chalice in AFL football then Richmond over the last 25 years is it. They have burned greats like KB and Frawley. they have had players like Knights, Free, Richo, Gaspar, Campbell and have failed to consistently deliver. Their fans over expect and consequently there is constant pressure for success despite the factually reality of their list. Blind Freddy couls see that Richmond's list in 2004 was sh*t. perhaps it was capable of playing finals footy in Wallace's first season, but realistically they had a HUGE problem with aging veterans and almost no quality youngsters being developed. They had drafted worse than us and traded for guys like Simmonds, Johnson and Brown.

Probably the most difficult reason I had in understanding why Wallace went to the Tigers as coach was his history with them back in the mid-80's as a player - his career post Hawthorn was almost ruined by going to the Tgers where he fell out over coaching tactics/positions and of course his contract. Surely that experience would have made even the dumbest person wary about becoming involved with them again.

As for Wallace's contribution to the WB's, its too easy to focus on the final week of his tenure when he walked out on the players and to blame him for the recruitin of "downhill skiers". Its too easy to foget that he took a group of players in the latter part of 1996 and made them competitive and gave them a game plan that worked. He nearly made a GF in 1997 and whilst he was outcoached in 1998, you can't help but feel that we were out psyched by the Crows. He was prepared to make tough decisions in regards Cameron, Monty and Powell, but the rewards were securing draft picks for players like Murphy, Gilbee, Hargrave etc who are now key players in our side. He got the best out of guys like Liberatore, Dimma and Romero when many felt that they were either past it or unlikely to succeed in AFL football. I've been following the footy since I was a kid in the mid to lat 70's and the period 1997 through 2002 is the most successful and fun time I'v ever experienced as a fan, Wallace player a significant part in that.

[alwaysadog]

I generally don't like to get drawn into commenting on Wallace, but having read a few things posted here I think I should. As a club we have a tendency to "hate" with a passion coaches who either "failed" us or "left" for greener pastures and Wallce for mine fits into this category. Like Malthouse before him he left because the club was essentialy bankrupt and he would have had to coach under severe dures which realistically would have hadversely affected his market value. I doubt Wallace would have done much better than Rhode with the players avaialable and budget cuts that were made. So did Wallace do a bad thing to jump ship and preserve his repiutation? No more than I or any other professional would do since you reputation is what gest you a job 99% of the time and in 2002/3 Wallace was regarded as a bloody good coach.I was disappointed when Wallace left, disappointed with his comments and disappointed that it went against his comments earlier in the season, but personally I ruled a line under the mattter and moved on (though I was horrified when we appointed Rhode.....).

When Wallace took the Richmond job, Nathan Brown being there aside, I couldn't undestand why he would make that decision. Sure the money must have been good, and yep, the timing was probably right given he'd been out of footy for 18 months or so, but realistically if there is a poisoned chalice in AFL football then Richmond over the last 25 years is it. They have burned greats like KB and Frawley. they have had players like Knights, Free, Richo, Gaspar, Campbell and have failed to consistently deliver. Their fans over expect and consequently there is constant pressure for success despite the factually reality of their list. Blind Freddy couls see that Richmond's list in 2004 was sh*t. perhaps it was capable of playing finals footy in Wallace's first season, but realistically they had a HUGE problem with aging veterans and almost no quality youngsters being developed. They had drafted worse than us and traded for guys like Simmonds, Johnson and Brown.

Probably the most difficult reason I had in understanding why Wallace went to the Tigers as coach was his history with them back in the mid-80's as a player - his career post Hawthorn was almost ruined by going to the Tgers where he fell out over coaching tactics/positions and of course his contract. Surely that experience would have made even the dumbest person wary about becoming involved with them again.

As for Wallace's contribution to the WB's, its too easy to focus on the final week of his tenure when he walked out on the players and to blame him for the recruitin of "downhill skiers". Its too easy to foget that he took a group of players in the latter part of 1996 and made them competitive and gave them a game plan that worked. He nearly made a GF in 1997 and whilst he was outcoached in 1998, you can't help but feel that we were out psyched by the Crows. He was prepared to make tough decisions in regards Cameron, Monty and Powell, but the rewards were securing draft picks for players like Murphy, Gilbee, Hargrave etc who are now key players in our side. He got the best out of guys like Liberatore, Dimma and Romero when many felt that they were either past it or unlikely to succeed in AFL football. I've been following the footy since I was a kid in the mid to lat 70's and the period 1997 through 2002 is the most successful and fun time I'v ever experienced as a fan, Wallace player a significant part in that.


Oh that Terry, now I remember who everyone's talking about, Fredi, and I agree with just about every balanced word you have written. Now please let's move on too.

[The Underdog]

Oh that Terry, now I remember who everyone's talking about, Fredi, and I agree with just about every balanced word you have written. Now please let's move on too.

Seconded and passed.
Let's concentrate on future glories not past near misses.

[mjp]

Well said Fredi.

[bornadog]

'Thread closed.

[1eyedog]

Plough sucks a**. He and his little bum-chum Browny.

[hujsh]

Oh that Terry, now I remember who everyone's talking about, Fredi, and I agree with just about every balanced word you have written. Now please let's move on too.


Seconded and passed.
Let's concentrate on future glories not past near misses.


Well said Fredi.


'Thread closed.


Plough sucks a**. He and his little bum-chum Browny.

Hahahaha. Just wanted to add that little bit did ya?:D

[Dancin' Douggy]

This is not an 'I HATE TERRY WALLACE THREAD!!!!!!!!!'
Is he a good coach or not?
Evidence suggests he is very over rated as a coach of Australian rules football.

[GVGjr]

This is not an 'I HATE TERRY WALLACE THREAD!!!!!!!!!'
Is he a good coach or not?
Evidence suggests he is very over rated as a coach of Australian rules football.

Very good coach in a number of areas especially innovation etc but the results would indicate that can't get the best out of players and his game plan is not sustainable.
He inherited a pretty good Bulldog side, got a fair bit out of them for a few seasons but slowly we started to slide. In fairness to him he did not have the resources that Eade now enjoys and the reduced salary cap that he had to work to I think caught him out.

[hujsh]

While i don't like him or rate him I wonder where the club would find itself without the 97/98 years. Leaving may have been dogact but he did provide a service for a short time before dragging us back eventually and jumping ship.

I believe Terry Wheeler was the coach before him (excuse my ignorance) but there is no guarantee we would have made a prelim under him (we may have won the GF with him as well though)

[ledge]

Hey Dancin your asking a bulldog website what they think of a bloke who walked out on the club.
Anyway will try and give you unbiased thoughts of mine.
Number 1 he did the best he could with what he had when he came to us.
Number 2 all coaches have a use by date and regardless of him leaving because of dodgy deals or whatever the last year he coached us it wasnt working at all.
He was a great coach for us at the time he came and whatever he did worked for us for a couple of years.
In saying that, he looks like another Denis Pagan now, was great at one club.
I think Terry is a seat of the pants coach, which in the end catches up with you when the opposition works you out.

[FrediKanoute]

While i don't like him or rate him I wonder where the club would find itself without the 97/98 years. Leaving may have been dogact but he did provide a service for a short time before dragging us back eventually and jumping ship.

I believe Terry Wheeler was the coach before him (excuse my ignorance) but there is no guarantee we would have made a prelim under him (we may have won the GF with him as well though)

Alan Joyce was coach before Wallace, Wheeler before Joyce

[alwaysadog]

Hey Dancin your asking a bulldog website what they think of a bloke who walked out on the club.
Anyway will try and give you unbiased thoughts of mine.
Number 1 he did the best he could with what he had when he came to us.
Number 2 all coaches have a use by date and regardless of him leaving because of dodgy deals or whatever the last year he coached us it wasnt working at all.
He was a great coach for us at the time he came and whatever he did worked for us for a couple of years.
In saying that, he looks like another Denis Pagan now, was great at one club.
I think Terry is a seat of the pants coach, which in the end catches up with you when the opposition works you out.

Very smart post and analysis Ledge, does anyone need to add more?

Have some forgotten that we have had a very good start to the season and whatever one's gripes about what has gone down in the past, the present and the future are of far greater significance.

I love history, especially that of our club, as do lots of posters on this site, but self destructive anger only feeds itself.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Hey Dancin your asking a bulldog website what they think of a bloke who walked out on the club.
Anyway will try and give you unbiased thoughts of mine.
Number 1 he did the best he could with what he had when he came to us.
Number 2 all coaches have a use by date and regardless of him leaving because of dodgy deals or whatever the last year he coached us it wasnt working at all.
He was a great coach for us at the time he came and whatever he did worked for us for a couple of years.
In saying that, he looks like another Denis Pagan now, was great at one club.
I think Terry is a seat of the pants coach, which in the end catches up with you when the opposition works you out.

I'm asking what they think of his coaching. Not what they think of him.

[GVGjr]

I'm asking what they think of his coaching. Not what they think of him.

Thats the way that I answered it.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I know you did gvgjr. And it was a good post too. Just picking you up on your opening line.

[GVGjr]

I know you did gvgjr. And it was a good post too. Just picking you up on your opening line.

You know he is very good at getting players to believe in themselves and he networks so well with the senior group. One of the problems during his tenure was that he had two sets of rules and the senior group had a lot of scope to pick and chose which events they would attend regardless of the commitments to the sponsors to the supporter groups. Thankfully only a couple of them took advantage of that latitude but it did cause a few rifts for some of the other players.

[ledge]

You know he is very good at getting players to believe in themselves and he networks so well with the senior group. One of the problems during his tenure was that he had two sets of rules and the senior group had a lot of scope to pick and chose which events they would attend regardless of the commitments to the sponsors to the supporter groups. Thankfully only a couple of them took advantage of that latitude but it did cause a few rifts for some of the other players.

Was Nathan Brown wasnt it? i believe we were ok to give him what he wanted, but wanted him to visit schools and stuff but he wouldnt and club stood firm. Is that anywhere near the truth?
Looks like it was planned for him to follow Terry anyway.
I remember Browny saying he wanted to go to a club that was going to play finals footy, but had turned down Collingwood, who had just played in 2 grand finals! MMM Dont think he would have got away with anything under Mick Malthouse, if that was the case.
Maybe Terry got too close to some of his players in the end, its a fine line, every coach would have favourites, but its how you handle it.

[GVGjr]

I don't think it was solely Brown but yes he was very selective of the functions that he attended whereas others didn't have that luxury.

[Topdog]

Brilliant post Freddi. Spot on.