Libba speaks out on Carlton tanking

[Topdog]

pretty weak interview for the most part.

Lots of "maybe", "I think so", "personally not me", I'm not sure who said it"

Name names if you are going to do something like this.

[hujsh]

When i heard the intro i was ROFLing:D

Who will he take down next.

You're right that there was allot of "well personally" and "i can't speak for him/them"

Still he was right but didn't tell anyone what we didn't know.

NO CLUB WILL HIRE HIM AGAIN.

Still, pretty funny and the AFL does have a problem here.

[BulldogBelle]

l think he can pretty much kiss his coaching carer goodbye.

No one will touch him now.

So who will he go after next?

[Twodogs]

l think he can pretty much kiss his coaching carer goodbye.

No one will touch him now.

So who will he go after next?



I heard he was intimately involved in the last few months of the Howard and he's planning to tip the bucket on Alexander Downer.

[hujsh]

l think he can pretty much kiss his coaching carer goodbye.

No one will touch him now.

So who will he go after next?

Thats the big question.

Is there anyone left?

[Throughandthrough]

l think he can pretty much kiss his coaching carer goodbye.

No one will touch him now.




I came on here going to post the same thing.

I actually feel very sad for him now.

This will end very poorly for him.




Vale Libba

He needs to go away and hide for 5-10 years and apologise for the massive brain fart he had in 2006-7-8.

[Dry Rot]

Interesting thread.

Of course, there's the question why he's come out and said this?

And he has no future with any club now.

But what he alleged about Carlton makes sense.

IMO, the AFL is an absolute joke if they chase Paul Roos without following this up.

Also begs a question about other bottom teams like us under Rohde and if we've ever done this sort of thing?

[FrediKanoute]

Pretty weak and smacks of sour grapes (again).

If he had these concerns or thought these things why did he wait so long to air them? If he is coming out now to clear his conscience then it begs the question of whether he had a conscience whilst he was still employed by Carlton or whether they conscience developed once his services had been terminated.

I'm all for supportiung whistleblowers, but there is a VERY definite line between dumping on your previous employer and blowing the lid on something. Poor form Libba. lets hope your son isn't cut form the same cloth!

[The Coon Dog]

AFL rocked by Carlton 'tank' claims (http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/afl-rocked-by-tank-claims/2008/03/13/1205126118754.html)

The Age - Thomas Arup - March 14, 2008


CARLTON deliberately underperformed in its last four matches last season in a bid to secure better players in the AFL draft, its former assistant coach Tony Liberatore said last night.

In an explosive interview, Liberatore said Carlton was more concerned with securing high draft picks, which enabled it to sign up superstar Chris Judd, than winning the games.

Speaking on last night's Footy Show, he said that the Carlton coaching staff didn't prepare properly, played players who didn't deserve a game, refused to make moves in the coaching box and sent key players off for surgery when they could have played.

It is the first time that someone from inside the club has publicly confirmed what was widely suspected in the broader football community.

His remarks will put pressure on the AFL to deal with "tanking", which its chief executive Andrew Demetriou last year insisted did not exist.

When asked whether Carlton's behaviour constituted tanking, Liberatore said: "Personally I would say yes."

The former Western Bulldogs champion and Brownlow medallist, who left Carlton at the end of last season, said the club's actions made him feel extremely uncomfortable.

He said after Carlton lost the last match of the season — ensuring it won a priority draft pick — he did not attend an after-match function because he had "a bit of an empty feeling".

He said his fellow coaching staff were unconcerned by the loss and he felt that there was no point in suggesting moves in the coaches' box.

Asked if he thought Carlton coach Brett Ratten had deliberately lost the last game to Melbourne, he responded: "Maybe … I can only talk for myself. I would not try to lose it, maybe others in there tried to lose it."

He contrasted Ratten's attitude with that of Denis Pagan, who was sacked after round 16.

"This might coincide with Denis moving on as well, because I always thought Denis always wanted to win, no matter what," he said. Ratten, who spoke to The Age from last night's AFL season launch, said that he had "heard a whisper" yesterday about Liberatore's interview, but would not comment without having seen it.

But Carlton last night issued a terse statement saying it "emphatically denies" Liberatore's claims. It called a press conference for today to discuss the tanking claims.

Carlton's last match was dubbed the "Kreuzer Cup" after young ruckman Matthew Kreuzer, whom Carlton secured with its top pick. When asked if anybody had talked directly about tanking before the match, Liberatore said: "I never heard it, but I could feel it."

After the season, West Coast, which lost Judd to Carlton, accused the Blues of tanking. Sydney coach Paul Roos said the fact Carlton was able to pick up the land's most desired player by losing 11 games straight was the "ugly side" of football.

Despite this, Demetriou rejected calls for an overhaul of the draft system, saying those who said coaches were trying to lose games were "delusional". He did not comment last night.

[LostDoggy]

He is stating the obvious here.
Last year wasn't the first year its happened either.
Don't worry the AFL have more important things on their plate, must expand to 18 teams . Two more teams to tank and get unfair advantages.

[Topdog]

Pretty weak and smacks of sour grapes (again).

If he had these concerns or thought these things why did he wait so long to air them? If he is coming out now to clear his conscience then it begs the question of whether he had a conscience whilst he was still employed by Carlton or whether they conscience developed once his services had been terminated.

I'm all for supportiung whistleblowers, but there is a VERY definite line between dumping on your previous employer and blowing the lid on something. Poor form Libba. lets hope your son isn't cut form the same cloth!

As am I but there are correct channels to go through and he has decided to not use them. He should have gone to the AFL first and if they refused to do anything then go to the media.

Alas there was nothing in the interview that was too groundbreaking. Most of it was already known and as Ernie said, not the first time it's happened and won't be the last.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I hate the way the AFL refuse to accept anything that will see them in a negative light until it simply can't be denied any more.

"We had an inquiry and found there was no substance to the allegations".



Since priority picks were introduced, something like:

22 clubs have missed out on a priority pick by 2 games*
16 clubs have finished exactly on the limit to allow them a priority pick*
7 clubs have finished 2 games below the priority pick limit*

Only one club (Geelong, 2003) has ever missed out on a priority pick by a single game and that was because Geelong and Melbourne were both on the limit and played each other round 22 that year).


This is not enough evidence to say "Melbourne tanked in 2003" but it is enough evidence to say "tanking is real and happens". Instead, Demetriou trots out the standard AFL-approved denial "tanking doesn't exist".


FFS. Wake up. Tanking is very real and will remain until the priority picks are scrapped altogether.




* These figures are estimates because I couldn't be stuffed getting the actual figures, but the gist of this is true.

[LostDoggy]

As am I but there are correct channels to go through and he has decided to not use them. He should have gone to the AFL first and if they refused to do anything then go to the media.


Correct channels? The AFL don't want to know.
I didn't see the interview but I sounds like too much is being made of it. Sounds like Libba basically inffered what everyone knows without actually saying. Channel 9 wanted the story and got it.

[LostDoggy]

* These figures are estimates because I couldn't be stuffed getting the actual figures, but the gist of this is true.

Scooper making them up ala mpsbulldog?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Scooper making them up ala mpsbulldog?

At least I admit it!

[Go_Dogs]

When I heard it on the introduction last night I thought it could've been us! Flicking between Lost I was glad to see that it was Libba and Carlton.

Surely the AFL will have to come in now and scrap priority picks, and lottery the bottom four clubs or 8 clubs for the PSD selections. Would certainly help prevent teams from tanking.

[Ozza]

I don't think Libba's strong suit is expressing himself - he's certainly not what I'd consider 'articulate'. Having said that - I think we all know he's point was that 'it didn't feel right' to be not trying to win.

I think everyone in the football world knew Carlton wasn't trying its hardest to win. Certainly not the non-playing insiders to the club. I'm not sure of Tony's motivations to come out and say it now - it has probably just hurt his own reputation and that is sad.

I find it sad that people now think of him as the loud mouth who bagged out our club and now Carlton, and in the same vein I feel sad that people remember him as a 'dirty scragging type player'. People forget what a champion he was - partiicularly the early 90s where he was revered as a courageous ball getter and tackler who beat the odds of being undersized to win a brownlow, gardiner and Morrish medal.

I think all Bulldogs still have a spot in the hearts for little libba.

[LostDoggy]

Surely the AFL will have to come in now and scrap priority picks, and lottery the bottom four clubs or 8 clubs for the PSD selections. Would certainly help prevent teams from tanking.
They might act well after the horse has bolted.
If Carlton win a premeirship again from cheating, will they take it off them?

[Go_Dogs]

There is little they can do now, and I really doubt the AFL will actually be able to prove they tanked. I know a lot of clubs have put any player with a niggle away towards the end of the season, Power did it in 2006 and played only kids for the rest of the year, almost every club does it. I'm sure we do it too.

I'm not so worried about them winning a premiership from it, sure they got a few decent players, but hell, we've done alright off the priority system too, hasn't won us a premiership yet.

[LostDoggy]

There is little they can do now, and I really doubt the AFL will actually be able to prove they tanked. I know a lot of clubs have put any player with a niggle away towards the end of the season, Power did it in 2006 and played only kids for the rest of the year, almost every club does it. I'm sure we do it too.
I'm sure if they investigated properly they would find something. Can't find anything if you don't want to know about it.
Cheating and Carlton go hand in hand. How Judd got there isn't above board either.



I'm not so worried about them winning a premiership from it, sure they got a few decent players,
Tanking may not have won a premeirship yet but other forms of cheating like drugs use and the salary cap have. Won't be long.


but hell, we've done alright off the priority system too, hasn't won us a premiership yet.

2 players compared to how many at Carlton?. If we tanked, it was the Griffen year.

[Go_Dogs]

I don't think Carlton have been tanking for that many years, I think they've just been pretty damn ordinary. Last year they certainly seemed to have gone to a greater extent to make sure they don't win many games.

I'm just not convinced that Libba has much credibility left, and if an AFL investigation ensues I highly doubt that all the Carlton board/coaches etc are going to put their hands up and say 'Yes, we lost on purpose'.

Their most likely response will be 'We were trying to evaluate the list in the lead up to the 2008 season, and determine which players we wished to keep/move on, in the post-Dennis era. We had injuries to a lot of our key players and were forced to play the kids.'


In regards to the Judd stuff, can't disagree there. It's quite obvious to any observer that Carlton probably couldn't have made the trade happen without a few cardboard boxes.

As far as our priority picks, we had them the Cooney year and the Griffen year, however due to the idiocy of our then coach at one stage we blew a whole heap of great picks for nothing. We could be further ahead than we are. Again though, I wouldn't say that we outright tanked, we were just a pretty ordinary team at those times.

[Topdog]

Cheating and Carlton go hand in hand. How Judd got there isn't above board either.


I know someone that works for Mr. Pratt. Judd was secure in July. They had to sign confidentiality agreements about not leaking it.

[Sockeye Salmon]

When I heard it on the introduction last night I thought it could've been us! Flicking between Lost I was glad to see that it was Libba and Carlton.

Surely the AFL will have to come in now and scrap priority picks, and lottery the bottom four clubs or 8 clubs for the PSD selections. Would certainly help prevent teams from tanking.

I think the AFL have said that uncontracted players will be included in the National draft from now on. The PSD will only be for leftovers and I imagine will die a natural death.

It will make for a much fairer system.

If Cousins nominates next year, how high will someone be prepared to go? Do you pass over a potential 18yo gun for a 31yo?

[Dry Rot]

I know someone that works for Mr. Pratt. Judd was secure in July. They had to sign confidentiality agreements about not leaking it.

So they corrupted the draft process by tanking AND corrupted the trade process with a July deal while Judd was under contract to WCE.

[Dry Rot]

I don't think Libba's strong suit is expressing himself - he's certainly not what I'd consider 'articulate'. Having said that - I think we all know he's point was that 'it didn't feel right' to be not trying to win.

I think everyone in the football world knew Carlton wasn't trying its hardest to win. Certainly not the non-playing insiders to the club. I'm not sure of Tony's motivations to come out and say it now - it has probably just hurt his own reputation and that is sad.

I find it sad that people now think of him as the loud mouth who bagged out our club and now Carlton, and in the same vein I feel sad that people remember him as a 'dirty scragging type player'. People forget what a champion he was - partiicularly the early 90s where he was revered as a courageous ball getter and tackler who beat the odds of being undersized to win a brownlow, gardiner and Morrish medal.

I think all Bulldogs still have a spot in the hearts for little libba.

Welcome to WOOF Ozza.

I can't figure out why he came out with this now either.

[bornadog]

I know someone that works for Mr. Pratt. Judd was secure in July. They had to sign confidentiality agreements about not leaking it.

Well we know that Eade and co spoke to him back then, so he was available and in the market to the highest bidder.

[The Underdog]

Well if I want a bridge burnt I know who to employ to do it.
I'm seriously glad I watched the Soul Deep episode on James Brown and funk rather than the Footy Debacle.

[bornadog]

I'm seriously glad I watched the Soul Deep episode on James Brown and funk rather than the Footy Debacle.

I missed the whole thing, flipped over at 10.30 pm and now I remember why I don't watch that rubbish.

[Twodogs]

Two different situations in two consecutive years.


Late 2006. Port put a heap of players on the injury list, get a few injuries properly rested and send players who need surgery to get it well before the season ends. From R15 they only win two more games but make the GF next year.


Late 2007. Carlton start resting players and sending them off for surgery.




Why are we hanging Carlton and not Port?

[bornadog]

Why are we hanging Carlton and not Port?

We are questioning the whole draft system and priority picks.

[GVGjr]

Why are we hanging Carlton and not Port?

Because I enjoy it more.....a lot more :D

I think Libba is bitter and if he had these suspicions then why didn't he approach the president etc when he thought the footy department wasn't 100% after chasing wins?

The answer might be that the board etc were all in on it as well but at least his word now would mean a lot more.

Libba is burning more bridges than should be and the timing of these revelations are very strange.

Something is not quite right with all this.

[LostDoggy]

I think Libba is bitter and if he had these suspicions then why didn't he approach the president etc when he thought the footy department wasn't 100% after chasing wins?
The answer might be that the board etc were all in on it as well but at least his word now would mean a lot more.
You answered your own question.
:) Libba might be dumb but even he knows the president there is more crooked than anyone at that club. I was most likely his directive.
Libba had a chance for a job there still, no good talking up then.


Libba is burning more bridges than should be and the timing of these revelations are very strange.
Something is not quite right with all this.
I was more shocked at the Bulldog outburst. At least with this one he is 100% right.

[Go_Dogs]

Two different situations in two consecutive years.


Late 2006. Port put a heap of players on the injury list, get a few injuries properly rested and send players who need surgery to get it well before the season ends. From R15 they only win two more games but make the GF next year.


Late 2007. Carlton start resting players and sending them off for surgery.




Why are we hanging Carlton and not Port?


Exactly the point I was making.

However, having had a bit more time to think about it... If Carlton had failed to tank and gain access to the priority picks, they would have REALLY struggled to get the Judd deal off the ground, and would've most likely had to lose all their high picks for his services. By being able to finish with the priority pick, that were able to easily execute both the Judd trade, and still be able to hang on to another consecutive #1 pick.

Bit different to Port's scenario, although Boak is sure going to be a fantastic player.

Could we make a similar argument against ourselves too? No way was Hill ready to play against WC for example, and we booked a few guys in for surgery before we would have if we were vying for a spot in the finals. Ended up netting us the key forward we've long been after too. (Hopefully)

[Twodogs]

We are questioning the whole draft system and priority picks.


Are we? I was thinking it more an excuse to bag Carlton.:D


Because I enjoy it more.....a lot more :D.

There is that.




Something is not quite right with all this.


I get that feeling too. It just doesnt sit right does it? Like there's more to the story, or someone else is pulling the strings.



Were Port in a position to gain priority picks? If not, therein lies your answer.


No but they were able to improve their position in the draft order. That's still the same thing from where I sit.

[Twodogs]

Another way of looking at it.


Given the way the rules are set up would Carlton have been irresponsible if they won enough games to miss out on the priority pick? You can only play by the rules the competition lays down and if you can manipulate them to your long term competitive advantage, doesnt it make strategic sense? In fact I think there's almost an imperative to do it.

[The Coon Dog]

No but they were able to improve their position in the draft order. That's still the same thing from where I sit.

Port might have been able to improve their position by a pick or 2, hardly makes a dent in the scheme of things.

Carlton had picks 1& 3 in the draft last year. Had they won one, just one more game they would have only had pick 2.

That's a HUGE difference, nowhere akin to Port Adelaide.

Had they won just one more game they would have had EXTREME difficulty in engineering a trade for Chris Judd & if they did, then they would have had to offload pick 2, so no Kruezer (if he was available as Richmond might have already secured him with pick 1, which would have been theirs) or the next best available.

Chalk & cheese Carl.

[The Coon Dog]

Blues hit out at tanking claims (http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,23374017-23211,00.html)

CARLTON chief executive Greg Swann has strongly defended his club against allegations of "tanking" made by former assistant coach Tony Liberatore and said the Blues will consider legal action.
Swann said many of the things said by Liberatore, whose contract was not renewed for this season, were simply wrong and his allegation that the Blues sent senior players away for operations even when they did not need them were a "disgrace".

"The club strongly and emphatically denies there was any tanking in the last however many games as was alleged to have happened," Swann said.

He said in the five rounds prior to former coach Denis Pagan getting the axe the Blues lost by an average of 76 points and they actually improved when Brett Ratten took over as caretaker, losing the last six by an average of 30 points.

Swann said Ratten, who has since been installed permanently, was instructed to play the youngsters on the Blues' list, as the club was "on its knees" when he took over and needed to look to the future.

But he said there was never any instruction for him to try not to win matches.

"The mandate for Brett was to look at the list, play all the kids and have a look at them in positions we haven't seen them before, because obviously our list at that stage was not good enough to take us further," Swann said.

He named youngsters Shaun Hampson, Michael Jamison, Paul Bower and Mark Austin as players who were given a taste of senior football during that time and were now in line to play against Richmond in round one next Thursday night.

Swann said the club would consult with their lawyers over Liberatore's comments.

"We'll have a look at it, we've got people on our board who are lawyers, barristers and QCs," he said.

"We're pretty peeved about it, we'll have a look at it because a lot of the things that were said were just wrong."

He also said the AFL was welcome to investigate the claims, although he believed an investigation was not warranted and would be a nuisance for the Blues as they headed into the home and away season.

"There's been talk about an investigation, I don't think there's any need for that, but if the AFL wants to send someone down we're happy to talk about it, we've got nothing to hide," Swann said.

Ratten said he had told his players throughout his time as caretaker coach that he was aiming to win every match.

He also said the club had made a decision not to risk any players with injury concerns.

He denied an accusation by Liberatore that Bret Thornton was told to undergo ankle surgery when he did not need it.

Ratten said it was fortunate that Thornton had surgery when he did, as his recovery took longer than expected and it would otherwise have proved a significant interruption to his pre-season.

Liberatore last night told the Nine Network's AFL Footy Show that winning "wasn't the be all and end all" for the Blues during the final matches of last year.

Asked if he felt that constituted tanking, he said: "I would have to say yes."

The Blues lost their final 11 matches in 2007, ensuring they won few enough matches to earn a priority national draft pick, which they used to pick up talented young ruckman Matthew Kreuzer.

[LostDoggy]

Another way of looking at it.


Given the way the rules are set up would Carlton have been irresponsible if they won enough games to miss out on the priority pick? You can only play by the rules the competition lays down and if you can manipulate them to your long term competitive advantage, doesnt it make strategic sense? In fact I think there's almost an imperative to do it.

AFL made a big fuss about betting in the BS Cup with the Swans not taking it seriously which everyone knew was going to happen.
I suspect a lot more money was wagered in the last 4 Carlton games.

[The Coon Dog]

I suspect a lot more money was wagered in the last 4 Carlton games.

Be interesting to see what the bookies were holding both for a Carlton win & a Carlton loss, much more on the latter I suspect.

[FrediKanoute]

Carlton wont sue. For starters Carlton the club cannot sue, it would have to be the people who are defamed by Libba's comments.

The AFL though are in a bind over this one. Allegation have been made by a disgruntled employee through the media. Its a little different to the comments made by Roos overhead by a match official, though the results are the same.....the game is not being played on its merits. If the AFL is consistent (and God knows they are not), thenthey have to investigate this.

The manner in which Carlton have manipulated the situation, by orchestrating results that allowed them to hang onto the number one draft pick and obtain Chris Judd have meant that WCE lost a player who they could posibly have held onto and Richmond have been deprived of a player they could otherwise have picked up (Kruezner). This is a serious issue and brushing it under the carpet and saying blaming the idiotic ramblings of a disgruntled employee is a serious dereliction of duty!

Libba is an idiot though. If he had concerns he should have come up with them:

a) at the time; and
b) in confidence to the AFL.

The media is never the place to air dirty laundry.

Finally, claims that what Libba is saying is just "Heresay" are naive. His evidence would still be admissible as it would be first hand heresay evidence. As for Carlton attacking his credibility, it wouldn't be advisable because if they introduce issues of character then they would open themselves up to questions regarding their character.....lets face it they have some seriously bad history at rorting the system!

[bornadog]

Libba is an idiot though. If he had concerns he should have come up with them:

a) at the time; and
b) in confidence to the AFL.

The media is never the place to air dirty laundry.!

The thing is Libba never went to the media, he was interviewed by Channel 9. Channel 9 decided that they wanted to see if they could make a story out of the comments made by Paul Roos on Carlton losing the last 11 games. What better way to create something by chasing a former assistant coach of Carlton. Libba answered questions and was probably paid to go on the show and was careful in the words he used.

[LostDoggy]

Libba is an idiot though. If he had concerns he should have come up with them:
a) at the time; and
Well it happened in front of us and everyone suspected it. He was a paid employee at the time with a chance of future mepoloyment there.


b) in confidence to the AFL.
They don't want to know about it.

[Topdog]

They don't want to know about it.

We all know this to be 100% true however you still should go to the relevant authority first.

Then if nothing happens go back to Channel 9 and say "yeah I'll do that interview now".

Libba knew what it was about and should have gone to the effort (read wasted his time) purely so that no one can say he just wants his time in the limelight again.

[Dry Rot]

On a related topic, what do we all think of what is happening to Paul Roos?

Bloody useless vindictive witchunt, IMO.

[BulldogBelle]

Will be interesting to see what comes out of Libba's meeting with the AFL?

[LostDoggy]

Will be interesting to see what comes out of Libba's meeting with the AFL?

The same thing that has happened with the Braun-Channel 7-Aker allegation.
Nothing. They will hope people forget about it.

[Sockeye Salmon]

On a related topic, what do we all think of what is happening to Paul Roos?

Bloody useless vindictive witchunt, IMO.

Of course it was.


The AFL hold perception much higher than reality. It doesn't matter what happens - it's how the AFL looks in the eyes of the public that matters.

Performance enhancing drugs? Nah. Doesn't happen. Haven't had a positive test for 10 years. The reality is they so rarely test they're not likely to catch anyone and that's just how they like it.

Tanking? Nah. Never happens. FFS, every football follower in the country knows it happens.

Drugs? Nah. Never happens. What? Cousins? Oh, he's just one individual.

What about Fletcher? Nah. Never happened. Kerr? Nah. Never happened.

What about Selwood's comments about Headland's daughter? Nah. Never happened. Then why did Headland get off after belting him about 8 times? Ah, provocation. What provocation, Selwood didn't say anything? Thats right, it never happened.

[Topdog]

What never happened?

[LostDoggy]

What never happened?

Nothing.
Whats this thread about again?