Top of the table! Do we....

[mjp]

Pick a team to Win it?
Roll ‘me out there and see what happens?

What do you think we do? Are we going out there with a plan to contain Oliver and give Petracca fits? Are we providing Pickett with an environment 2nd only to the pits of hell in comfort? Shut down those outside running defenders?

Or do we just say “here we are Dees...no tricks, no tactics...give us your best show and let the chips fall where they may”?

2-questions:
1What would YOU do?
What do you think Bevo will do?

[GVGjr]

We aren't about to walk away from playing silly buggers with team selections on Thursday night so who knows what it might look like.

I think we should pick our best team and go hell for leather for a win. There is no shame in a loss unless we put up an insipid performance.
I think this is a great chance for Bevo and the coaches to see where we are really at.
As a test it doesn't get any better than this during the season and we should embrace the opportunity of having the spotlight right on us.

[mjp]

I think this is a great chance for Bevo and the coaches to see where we are really at.


So - do we see "where we are at"? Or "where we are at" when we do things like lock Clayton Oliver away?

I am really curious what the approach is going to be.

[GVGjr]

So - do we see "where we are at"? Or "where we are at" when we do things like lock Clayton Oliver away?

I am really curious what the approach is going to be.

We can do both. I'd be assigning him a run with player at least for part of the game.

[EasternWest]

Prior to this post I wanted to win but now I'm leaning towards mjp and a bunch of woofers rolled out there.

[comrade]

I don't think we'll show all our tricks.

[Mantis]

We can do both. I'd be assigning him a run with player at least for part of the game.

Like whom?

I’d love to see Libba match up on Oliver and whilst be accountable, do what he does best and win the ball.

Think they’d have as many concerns as us with regard to our mids so not sure taggers will come in to play as it will mess with the mix of players.

[FrediKanoute]

We treat this as a final in terms of intensity, but not in terms of tactics. Lets see how our A game compares to their game and who on their list gets off the leash. A win is important, but not critical and in some ways a loss playing our way will tell us more than a win.

[Go_Dogs]

Tag defensive runners.

Trust our midfield to win head to head.

Don’t worry about their small forwards too much - make them accountable and draw Pickett away from the action on transition.

We can and should win.

Demons height up front may challenge us, and their midfield is really good, but despite their win over Richmond I’m not sure how tough they are. Think we can expose them and out work them.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We would have learnt a bit from the pre season game. I wouldn't show all our cards just yet though. Play 'our' way and see how it goes.

[GVGjr]

Like whom?

I’d love to see Libba match up on Oliver and whilst be accountable, do what he does best and win the ball.

Think they’d have as many concerns as us with regard to our mids so not sure taggers will come in to play as it will mess with the mix of players.

Liberatore is the man, Macrae at times as well.

[SonofScray]

We’ll put up our system v theirs, which is Bevo’s way.

[Bulldog Joe]

I would be looking at making Macrae responsible for Oliver and just see how it works.

This would be an important experience to test Jack in his defensive side and still allow him to be where he can get a lot of the ball.

Let Libba do his stuff in the clinches and not let Oliver get it to/on the outside.

[Mofra]

Challenge the corrider with ball in hand, shallow F50 entires to nullify their intercept marking prowess. Kick long goals, win the game.

Melbourne are predictable, they're just damn good at it. We're relatively predictable too.
We lined up with Roarke and Scott on the wings from the opening bounce last weekend so it seems we have our own style - win the ball in the middle, and play defensive outside players (wings) so that the opposition can't get any outside game going.

[mjp]

I would be looking at making Macrae responsible for Oliver and just see how it works.


If we did this - and Macrae openly embraced the roll in front of his team-mates both in the team meeting and on Friday night - I am convinced we would win by 12 goals.

I have my doubts that he would be too keen though. As much as I love watching him play (which is a real, real lot) I still wonder at times if his 30+ possession winning streak is more important to him than whether or not we win.

I don't mean to sound negative (I don't - we're 9-1 and I am super, duper happy!) but he is one of the players who I wanted to 'prove it' pre-season re- sacrifice and team/self type attitude...and whilst he has played incredibly well, the team as a whole has been going so well that there has not really been a need for someone to go outside of their usual position and show that it is WINNING that means the most to them.

Chances of this happening Friday night? 99-1!

[bulldogtragic]

If we did this - and Macrae openly embraced the roll in front of his team-mates both in the team meeting and on Friday night - I am convinced we would win by 12 goals.

I have my doubts that he would be too keen though. As much as I love watching him play (which is a real, real lot) I still wonder at times if his 30+ possession winning streak is more important to him than whether or not we win.

I don't mean to sound negative (I don't - we're 9-1 and I am super, duper happy!) but he is one of the players who I wanted to 'prove it' pre-season re- sacrifice and team/self type attitude...and whilst he has played incredibly well, the team as a whole has been going so well that there has not really been a need for someone to go outside of their usual position and show that it is WINNING that means the most to them.

Chances of this happening Friday night? 99-1!

He can do both. In the Geelong game late in 2016 where he and Libba worked over Danger/Selwood at the contests and burned them the other way, Jack’s injury was at 80 time played of 121 minutes. About 20-25 minutes less owing to his injury. He had still accumulated 20 touches, 3 clearances, 4 tackles, 5 score involvements. While keeping his man controlled.

[bornadog]

He can do both. In the Geelong game late in 2016 where he and Libba worked over Danger/Selwood at the contests and burned them the other way, Jack’s injury was at 80 time played of 121 minutes. About 20-25 minutes less owing to his injury. He had still accumulated 20 touches, 3 clearances, 4 tackles, 5 score involvements. While keeping his man controlled.

2019, second game v Carlton, Macrae went on Cripps and kept him quiet with 22 disposals and Macrae racked up 37

In answering the OP, we need to ensure their quick ball movement players like Langdon, Salem are kept in check.

[Bulldog Joe]

If we did this - and Macrae openly embraced the roll in front of his team-mates both in the team meeting and on Friday night - I am convinced we would win by 12 goals.

I have my doubts that he would be too keen though. As much as I love watching him play (which is a real, real lot) I still wonder at times if his 30+ possession winning streak is more important to him than whether or not we win.

I don't mean to sound negative (I don't - we're 9-1 and I am super, duper happy!) but he is one of the players who I wanted to 'prove it' pre-season re- sacrifice and team/self type attitude...and whilst he has played incredibly well, the team as a whole has been going so well that there has not really been a need for someone to go outside of their usual position and show that it is WINNING that means the most to them.

Chances of this happening Friday night? 99-1!

I understand and echo your sentiments, but I really think Bevo needs to put that sort of responsibility on him.

I also believe he is the best player we have for a role on Oliver.

[Twodogs]

I'm a believer in never mucking around with form. While we are playing well we should always play to win and that's what we should do on Friday night.

[jazzadogs]

I don't think mjp is questioning whether we play to win - he is questioning HOW we go about winning.

Do we back in the system which has been working the past few weeks - dominate the midfield in a fairly attacking manner, rely on contested marks/contests from our tall forwards, team defence through stagnant opposition ball movement - or do we acknowledge some of Melbourne's strengths and adapt our gameplan to counteract them?

I would be very happy to see us play Roarke as a defensive wingman on Langdon (already been doing it to a degree) and Scott/JJ to shut down on Salem (if he plays). I think these are both likely moves for Bevo, without being strict tags.

Who is our best match up for Fritsch? Duryea, Williams, Crozier? I can see him being troublesome in the patches their midfield inevitably gets on top.

This is definitely the midfield that will challenge us the most, especially with no Treloar. Gawn, Petracca, Oliver + Harmes/Langdon/Brayshaw is probably ahead of Sweet, Bont, Macrae + Libba/Bazlenka/Hunter due to Gawn's potential to dominate. I don't think our instructions to the midfield group will change significantly, and I think the defensive work of Dunkley will be very much missed.

Forward entries will be interesting - I think we will continue to back in Naughton and Bruce (+ potentially English) to take marks or at least prevent intercept marks. Our ground level pressure has been exceptional lately, and I am comfortable with this.


I think Bevo will want to test his system against a good team. I hope that we are open to making changes throughout the game, but also view it as a learning opportunity for later in the season. I don't want us to hold back on any tactics that we think could win us the game - every win is important, and a decisive win now has the potential to alter the mindset of our opposition later in the season when they think "we tried everything and couldn't match them" - but I also don't think we should be drastically altering what has got us to the 9-1 position we are in.

[bornadog]

Will Melbourne try and tag the Bont? Does Melbourne even do that sort of thing and if they do, how do we counteract?

[Grantysghost]

Will Melbourne try and tag the Bont? Does Melbourne even do that sort of thing and if they do, how do we counteract?

Hibberd went to Dusty I believe.

[divvydan]

Hibberd went to Dusty I believe.

That's true but not in midfield, only as a fwd. I could see Harmes going to someone and potentially they would use Neil-Bullen or Melksham on one of our running defender.s

[boydogs]

Tag Oliver, he is far and away their best player whilst we are more balanced
It's gets tricky missing Treloar and Dunkley though, if we give up Macrae it's just Libba & Bont of the A graders winning the ball and attacking. Maybe Wallis comes in

[divvydan]

Midfield wise, I think we just keep our own setup. If Oliver or Petracca dominate, then it's something we can revisit later in the season but for now, I see no reason to cater to them, make them cater to us if anything.

[Mofra]

That's true but not in midfield, only as a fwd. I could see Harmes going to someone and potentially they would use Neil-Bullen or Melksham on one of our running defender.s
Teams do try and shut down the main 'playmaker' from defence (we use JJ, opposition teams try to sit on Daniel).
I dare say we'll back our midfield against theirs, and vice versa. Neither team would want to take an A grader out of the midfield rotations to shutdown just one part of the opposition midfield.

Oliver / Petracca/ Brayshaw / Viney
Bont / Macrae / Libba / Smith

All arguably A grade going head to head.

[Mofra]

Tag Oliver, he is far and away their best player whilst we are more balancedn
Petracca is arguably the best player in the competition this year

[bornadog]

Petracca is arguably the best player in the competition this year

Not according to this: https://www.afl.com.au/news/620396/brownlow-predictor-33-votes-between-them-young-guns-not-far-behind

Bont and Oliver favourites for Brownlow.

[Mofra]

Not according to this: https://www.afl.com.au/news/620396/brownlow-predictor-33-votes-between-them-young-guns-not-far-behind

Bont and Oliver favourites for Brownlow.
That article also has Petracca as second favourite in the betting. Certainly doesn't sound like Oliver is "far and away" their best player.

[mjp]

That article also has Petracca as second favourite in the betting. Certainly doesn't sound like Oliver is "far and away" their best player.

Let's face it. They are both good players.

[comrade]

Let's face it. They are both good players.

It’s going to be a fun match up.

Demons have got us at the best time when our overarching strength (mid depth) is at its lowest for the season.

A win on Friday would do wonders for our self belief in our system.

[Mofra]

Let's face it. They are both good players.
Yep. And Viney, and Brayshaw.
I certainly don't think we tag one as they are so far above the others, much like teams would find it hard to tag one of our mids (e.g. Bont).

We'll probably play the midfield the way we have in recent weeks - defensive outside players (Roarke, McNeill takes Scott's defensive wing role) and try and win it in the centre.

[Happy Days]

If we did this - and Macrae openly embraced the roll in front of his team-mates both in the team meeting and on Friday night - I am convinced we would win by 12 goals.

I have my doubts that he would be too keen though. As much as I love watching him play (which is a real, real lot) I still wonder at times if his 30+ possession winning streak is more important to him than whether or not we win.


This is kinda unfair. There’s nothing in Macrae’s game to suggest he’s not doing the defensive work or prioritising possession over position, and in fact our ability to stymie opposition inside 50s would suggest the opposite. He’s just a really, really great player.

[Mofra]

This is kinda unfair. There’s nothing in Macrae’s game to suggest he’s not doing the defensive work or prioritising possession over position, and in fact our ability to stymie opposition inside 50s would suggest the opposite. He’s just a really, really great player.
He did have 8 tackles last week and covers the ground really well.
He does regularly top the CBAs for our mids though (even over Libba) so I think he's less versatile than our other mids.

[westbulldog]

This is kinda unfair. There’s nothing in Macrae’s game to suggest he’s not doing the defensive work or prioritising possession over position, and in fact our ability to stymie opposition inside 50s would suggest the opposite. He’s just a really, really great player.

I agree that it is very unfair. The comment imo totally undersells Jack Macrae who is an absolute champion, twice All-Australian and is as hard at it as anyone. He doesn't need to tag Oliver or anyone else, they need to tag him.

[MrMahatma]

I think there’s a real benefit in making sure their play makers have a bad match. I mean, remember when JJ was first tagged and then went to water for a while. Get in their head. Make them think they can’t perform in big matches/against us.

There’s 4 points on the line and if we take this one, we’re oh so close to top 4 being locked away.

[Topdog]

I agree that it is very unfair. The comment imo totally undersells Jack Macrae who is an absolute champion, twice All-Australian and is as hard at it as anyone. He doesn't need to tag Oliver or anyone else, they need to tag him.

That isnt necessarily what is best for the team though. If Macrae gets 35 and Oliver gets 30 vs Macrae with 25 and Oliver with 20 we may be better off with that tag.

Personally I'm happy to back in Macrae who has drastically improved his F50 entry this season but I dont see the comment as disrespectful.

[Mantis]

That isnt necessarily what is best for the team though. If Macrae gets 35 and Oliver gets 30 vs Macrae with 25 and Oliver with 20 we may be better off with that tag.

Personally I'm happy to back in Macrae who has drastically improved his F50 entry this season but I dont see the comment as disrespectful.

I guess the pertinent question is who is more important to their team's performance? As good as Macrae is I would think Melb rely more heavily on Oliver than we do with Jack so for that reason alone we need to have someone accountable for his output... it doesn't necessarily need to be a hard tag, just keep him under control.

[Topdog]

Do we have all our players isolate due to Covid?

[Go_Dogs]

This is kinda unfair. There’s nothing in Macrae’s game to suggest he’s not doing the defensive work or prioritising possession over position, and in fact our ability to stymie opposition inside 50s would suggest the opposite. He’s just a really, really great player.

I agree.

He’s a confident guy and clearly rates himself does the Nator, but he also works hard defensively and puts his body on the line to buy time for team mates more often than any other player I’ve seen.

[DOG GOD]

I'm a believer in never mucking around with form. While we are playing well we should always play to win and that's what we should do on Friday night.

Agree, why give them added confidence if they win for next time when they face us. I’d almost go head to head in midfield, but give Roarke a tag on Langdon, and JJ a job on Salem (if he plays).

[whythelongface]

If we did this - and Macrae openly embraced the roll in front of his team-mates both in the team meeting and on Friday night - I am convinced we would win by 12 goals.

I have my doubts that he would be too keen though. As much as I love watching him play (which is a real, real lot) I still wonder at times if his 30+ possession winning streak is more important to him than whether or not we win.



Not sure how you come to this conclusion. I very much doubt, in fact I would be certain, that this is not the case. He is a team first player and his main role is to get his hands on the pill. Are we willing to sacrifice his game to play a negating role on Oliver? Surely there are others whom can play this role, if that is what we need to do.

[chef]

Pick a team to Win it?
Roll ‘me out there and see what happens?

What do you think we do? Are we going out there with a plan to contain Oliver and give Petracca fits? Are we providing Pickett with an environment 2nd only to the pits of hell in comfort? Shut down those outside running defenders?

Or do we just say “here we are Dees...no tricks, no tactics...give us your best show and let the chips fall where they may”?

2-questions:
1What would YOU do?
What do you think Bevo will do?

We go out all guns blazing ro win it. This game could be the difference betweem a home final and going interstate.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Not sure how you come to this conclusion. I very much doubt, in fact I would be certain, that this is not the case. He is a team first player and his main role is to get his hands on the pill. Are we willing to sacrifice his game to play a negating role on Oliver? Surely there are others whom can play this role, if that is what we need to do.

Yeah Macrae doesn't strike me at all as that sort of guy. He's completely selfless. He's an absolute gun and is constantly overlooked and underrated. If he wanted attention he probably would have demanded a trade to become numero 1 midfielder at another club. He's a team-first player no doubt.

[Grantysghost]

Yeah Macrae doesn't strike me at all as that sort of guy. He's completely selfless. He's an absolute gun and is constantly overlooked and underrated. If he wanted attention he probably would have demanded a trade to become numero 1 midfielder at another club. He's a team-first player no doubt.

He hates the limelight, and that's why he is under rated.

[1eyedog]

Teams do try and shut down the main 'playmaker' from defence (we use JJ, opposition teams try to sit on Daniel).
I dare say we'll back our midfield against theirs, and vice versa. Neither team would want to take an A grader out of the midfield rotations to shutdown just one part of the opposition midfield.

Oliver / Petracca/ Brayshaw / Viney
Bont / Macrae / Libba / Smith

All arguably A grade going head to head.

Is Viney an in? Last I heard on 20 May he was eyeing first game back post bye.

[comrade]

Is Viney an in? Last I heard on 20 May he was eyeing first game back post bye.

No, at least 3 weeks away.

[1eyedog]

I think with Tomlinson and Viney out it almost offsets Dunks and Treloar. Tomlinson has been excellent this year and Viney is an important inside cog.

[jeemak]

I guess the pertinent question is who is more important to their team's performance? As good as Macrae is I would think Melb rely more heavily on Oliver than we do with Jack so for that reason alone we need to have someone accountable for his output... it doesn't necessarily need to be a hard tag, just keep him under control.

It's a hard one to gauge, but with Oliver's current form you may be right. However, we possibly take Jacko a little for granted (and that's not a criticism) and would probably get a pretty serious dose of reality if he missed for any substantial chunk of time.

[1eyedog]

That isnt necessarily what is best for the team though. If Macrae gets 35 and Oliver gets 30 vs Macrae with 25 and Oliver with 20 we may be better off with that tag.

Personally I'm happy to back in Macrae who has drastically improved his F50 entry this season but I dont see the comment as disrespectful.

Saying Macrae is more enamoured with getting 30 touches rather than win a game of football is other-worldy and, if serious, is pretty disrespectful to Jack.

It's an interesting comment from someone who has only really seen him play live a handful of times.

[Grantysghost]

Saying Macrae is more enamoured with getting 30 touches rather than win a game of football is other-worldy and, if serious, is pretty disrespectful to Jack.

It's an interesting comment from someone who has only really seen him play live a handful of times.

It's not to be taken seriously.

[1eyedog]

It's not to be taken seriously.

Ok then.

[Grantysghost]

Ok then.

I'm with you. Macrae is a top 10 mid, equal first in score involvements and first in disposals.
As good as it gets, every year this raises its ugly head.

[mjp]

I agree that it is very unfair. The comment imo totally undersells Jack Macrae who is an absolute champion, twice All-Australian and is as hard at it as anyone. He doesn't need to tag Oliver or anyone else, they need to tag him.

No one said he wasn’t all of those things (hard at it, all aust etc). But if his attitude is ‘they should be tagging me’ as you suggest, well, we have no chance. Team above self.

[mjp]

Saying Macrae is more enamoured with getting 30 touches rather than win a game of football is other-worldy and, if serious, is pretty disrespectful to Jack.

It's an interesting comment from someone who has only really seen him play live a handful of times.

Settle down. Happy to debate with you on pretty much any point but if you are going to dismiss my opinion because I live in Perth and can’t go to the footy every week that’s bit of a joke...I doubt you saw too many games in 2020 but seemed to have an opinion on them all the same.

No ones saying Jack isn’t an excellent player. As per my comments pre season though - Prove It. We have a lost number ours games in the years following the premiership due to lack of effort and poor defending. We have started this season well but I am still not a true believer. Sorry if 9 good weeks doesn’t over write 4 years of inconsistency and poor results.

Jack has been getting a heap of the footy. Which is great. He gets a lot of it every week. Also great. Sometimes, opposition mids get a lot of it...not so great.

Running back to help the defenders is good...but mids play on other mids...and that requires a level of sacrifice. Sorry if I have not seen this from our group in the past 4 seasons...sorry if wanting to see it now is disrespectful.

Give me a break.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I can see MJP's argument here. I didn't see it as a slight on Macrae's abilities, but as a tactical opportunity to actually catch Melbourne off guard, by doing something they'd never expect and therefore not plan for.
I'm sure they're banking on Macrae doing Macrae things and accumulating and being attacking. How would they react if on game day he lines up on Oliver and instead of running off him after the clearance, sticking to him like glue?
Melbourne might be forced to be reactive and deviate away from their game plan which may open up further tactical opportunities elsewhere for us.
It would also send a couple of messages.
1. To other teams: We're not so predictable that you can take our game plan to the bank each week when setting up your team's plans
2. It lets Jack and the rest of the team know that whilst getting leather poisoning each week is one way to show you're all in and playing your part, another way is to submit to the team needs. Jack might only get 10-15 possies tagging Oliver, but he may actually end up with some coaches votes from it because his role was significant in the team being able to achieve what it wanted.

The only query I'd have is whether such a move might be more decisive if deployed during a final and just catch a team completely off guard and therefore see them poorly equipped to respond.

[mjp]

I can see MJP's argument here. I didn't see it as a slight on Macrae's abilities, but as a tactical opportunity to actually catch Melbourne off guard, by doing something they'd never expect and therefore not plan for.
I'm sure they're banking on Macrae doing Macrae things and accumulating and being attacking. How would they react if on game day he lines up on Oliver and instead of running off him after the clearance, sticking to him like glue?

So - just to be clear...using Macrae to tag Oliver was never my idea. What I said was if Jack was given the role and openly EMBRACED it, then that would represent a new level of selflessness in our footy side.

I DID (and I openly acknowledge this) say that I sometimes wonder if getting possessions (aka "playing well") is more important to Jack than winning games of footy. This is more a reflection on the fact that he DOES get some empty possessions - 41 touches last weekend without a single coaches vote is a reflection on that. To me getting "a lot" of the ball has always been what has defined him as a footballer and the stories of him screaming for the footy at u18 level remain legendary. When hunting the footy has been your footy "thing" since age 6, turning that around and playing a team first role is not that easy.



The only query I'd have is whether such a move might be more decisive if deployed during a final and just catch a team completely off guard and therefore see them poorly equipped to respond.

And that question right there is the ENTIRE point of this thread.

[Mofra]

Is Viney an in? Last I heard on 20 May he was eyeing first game back post bye.
I thought he was closer, cheers.
Hopefully our second mid rotation is still a little better than theirs even with Dunks and Treloar out.
That pre-season experiment of Hunter in the centre square for the odd rotation may bear fruit. He's got the best tank at the club so certainly offers us extra legs.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So - just to be clear...using Macrae to tag Oliver was never my idea. What I said was if Jack was given the role and openly EMBRACED it, then that would represent a new level of selflessness in our footy side.

I DID (and I openly acknowledge this) say that I sometimes wonder if getting possessions (aka "playing well") is more important to Jack than winning games of footy. This is more a reflection on the fact that he DOES get some empty possessions - 41 touches last weekend without a single coaches vote is a reflection on that. To me getting "a lot" of the ball has always been what has defined him as a footballer and the stories of him screaming for the footy at u18 level remain legendary. When hunting the footy has been your footy "thing" since age 6, turning that around and playing a team first role is not that easy.



And that question right there is the ENTIRE point of this thread.

Sorry, for my poor writing. I wasn't meaning put words into your mouth by suggesting you were advocating Macrae tag Oliver. I'm not even suggesting he tags Oliver per se. Just using it as an illustration of your point where adopting a team role might be a more influential indicator of his value outside of racking up loads of possessions, as shown by his zero coaches votes on the weekend.

[bornadog]

We know that Contested Poss. are extremely important in winning games, and Melbourne are ranked first (we are 3rd), and Oliver is the number 1 contested player. This means we have to stop him from getting the ball. Libba is 3rd on the list, and number one clearance player.

Do they go head to head?

[Grantysghost]

I vote go head to head. They've got two outstanding mids but without Viney they're significantly weaker. I really rate him.
If it starts to go south we can make a move but it start with head to head.

[mjp]

I vote go head to head. They've got two outstanding mids but without Viney they're significantly weaker. I really rate him.
If it starts to go south we can make a move but it start with head to head.

I would really like to get into their heads for the season to come.

1/. Shut down one of them inside (Oliver or Petraccca) and one on the outside (Langdon).
2/. Make life miserable for a back half distributor - prob Salem if he's back.

[Mofra]

I would really like to get into their heads for the season to come.

1/. Shut down one of them inside (Oliver or Petraccca) and one on the outside (Langdon).
2/. Make life miserable for a back half distributor - prob Salem if he's back.
Roarke to Langdon and JJ to Salem seem like obvious moves.
I'm not sure we'll go a shut down option on one of their mids as a Plan A. Plan B could be Libba noting his incredible job on Kennedy in the second half of the GF

[Bulldog4life]

I vote go head to head. They've got two outstanding mids but without Viney they're significantly weaker. I really rate him.
If it starts to go south we can make a move but it start with head to head.

According to afl.com he is still a chance.

[comrade]

According to afl.com he is still a chance.

Alan Richardson does the Dees injury update on their website and has definitively ruled out Viney for another 2-3 weeks. No surprises the AFL website journo isn't across it.

[bornadog]

According to afl.com he is still a chance.

Now showing out for 2 to 3 weeks

[comrade]

Roarke to Langdon and JJ to Salem seem like obvious moves.


Agree on these two, absolute musts to shut them down.

[1eyedog]

According to afl.com he is still a chance.

He's no chance. Heard him speak a week ago saying he is aiming for the first game back after the bye.

[Grantysghost]

Roarke to Langdon and JJ to Salem seem like obvious moves.
I'm not sure we'll go a shut down option on one of their mids as a Plan A. Plan B could be Libba noting his incredible job on Kennedy in the second half of the GF

Langdon is a super player, brilliant recruiting by the Dees I didn't realise how good he was.

If we can make him accountable naturally by our wingers being damaging that would be my preference but definitely have the plan there ready to go.

[Mofra]

Langdon is a super player, brilliant recruiting by the Dees I didn't realise how good he was.

If we can make him accountable naturally by our wingers being damaging that would be my preference but definitely have the plan there ready to go.
We have deliberately played 'defensive' wingmen for most of this year (last week our go-to pairing were Roarke and Scott).
I don't expect any radical departures from our regular gameplan this week. If English is available perhaps we play him deeper and Naughton plays a little higher to lead at the ball rather than jump into the deep contest. Play through Hannan a bit more so we have two real marking targets away from May & Lever. Adelaide's shallow entries strategy against Melbourne worked well.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We have deliberately played 'defensive' wingmen for most of this year (last week our go-to pairing were Roarke and Scott).
I don't expect any radical departures from our regular gameplan this week. If English is available perhaps we play him deeper and Naughton plays a little higher to lead at the ball rather than jump into the deep contest. Play through Hannan a bit more so we have two real marking targets away from May & Lever. Adelaide's shallow entries strategy against Melbourne worked well.

If English comes in, who makes way for him?

[comrade]

Really hope the roof isn't open. Demons thrive in wet weather (see the Richmond game), really suits their midfield.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Hopefully they keep the roof closed as long as possible prior to the game.

[Bulldog4life]

Really hope the roof isn't open. Demons thrive in wet weather (see the Richmond game), really suits their midfield.

Thinking the same thing. Our usual training interrupted, roof open. C'mon footy Gods.

[bornadog]

Really hope the roof isn't open. Demons thrive in wet weather (see the Richmond game), really suits their midfield.

Forecast at present -Small chance of rain - 0 to 1mm

Have you noticed alot of players at Marvel slipping and sliding. Not just our game but all games. The surface at the moment looks pretty bad

[comrade]

Forecast at present -Small chance of rain - 0 to 1mm

Have you noticed alot of players at Marvel slipping and sliding. Not just our game but all games. The surface at the moment looks pretty bad

Yep, and an open roof won't help things at all.

A cold Melbourne night means the dew will set in and make it wet and slippery even if there isn't much rain.

Just leave the roof closed, and make it 50% capacity.

[westbulldog]

Originally Posted by mjp
I[I]f we did this - and Macrae openly embraced the roll in front of his team-mates both in the team meeting and on Friday night - I am convinced we would win by 12 goals.

I have my doubts that he would be too keen though. As much as I love watching him play (which is a real, real lot) I still wonder at times if his 30+ possession winning streak is more important to him than whether or not we win.

I think your inference is that Macrae is a selfish player, prioritising his own possessions over the team's result. Imo that is insulting. Suggest you look at the vision of Jack after he kicked a late goal in the GWS prelim during our premiership year.

[Bulldog4life]

Yep, and an open roof won't help things at all.

A cold Melbourne night means the dew will set in and make it wet and slippery even if there isn't much rain.

Just leave the roof closed, and make it 50% capacity.

Afl would prefer the $$$$'s.

[comrade]

Afl would prefer the $$$$'s.

You'd think a smaller crowd capacity would be preferable given the outbreak.

[Bulldog4life]

You'd think a smaller crowd capacity would be preferable given the outbreak.

Agree totally plus love that roof shut.

[Grantysghost]

Yep, and an open roof won't help things at all.

A cold Melbourne night means the dew will set in and make it wet and slippery even if there isn't much rain.

Just leave the roof closed, and make it 50% capacity.

Especially when around 25k is about max expected anyway; 25-30 would be my guess for attendance prior to this based on other games.

[comrade]

Especially when around 25k is about max expected anyway; 25-30 would be my guess for attendance prior to this based on other games.

I would prefer 20k raving fans with a roof closed, than 25k with the roof open and the ground becoming an ice skating rink.

[Mofra]

If English comes in, who makes way for him?
We have two forced outs via injury, can't see changes beyond those two outs

[Topdog]

Roof to be open

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We have two forced outs via injury, can't see changes beyond those two outs

Is Scott a definite out?

[jeemak]

I think when we've had our lapses over the last four years it's been all of our midfielders, not just Jacko, who haven't taken the appropriate mindset to defending space and players. Libba, Bont, Smith and Dunkley have all been as responsible as Jacko for them at different times.

I'd like to see Smith given the job of running with Oliver, getting in his face and giving him a really hard time, if that's what we're wanting to do. He's been playing some good football, this is something that in my view would add to his repertoire given he has excellent aerobic capacity and pace to run off.

[Grantysghost]

I would prefer 20k raving fans with a roof closed, than 25k with the roof open and the ground becoming an ice skating rink.

Agree, the two games are ours and Saints North. Not going to be locking too many out at 50 percent.
If it's considered to make a massive difference by the experts then I guess that's the right way to go, as I doubt it's about extra attendance.

[Mofra]

Is Scott a definite out?
I thought he didn't return to the field after he was off so the 12 days applies

[Grantysghost]

I thought he didn't return to the field after he was off so the 12 days applies

There was some ambiguity in the responses I have heard to that question so I think it's still unconfirmed.
My guess is if they haven't announced concussion by now then he will be ok to go, barring any other issues.

[bornadog]

I thought he didn't return to the field after he was off so the 12 days applies

Not listed as concussion.

Anthony Scott - Head - Test

[mjp]

I think your inference is that Macrae is a selfish player, prioritising his own possessions over the team's result. Imo that is insulting. Suggest you look at the vision of Jack after he kicked a late goal in the GWS prelim during our premiership year.

Happy to look at whatever you like though pretty sure watching the way someone reacts after THEY kick a goal won't prove much about their willingness to lock on to an opponent and shut him down for 10 minutes.

As an aside, when talking about Jack I pretty clearly referenced the performances of the club in matches in which we were beaten (badly) that followed AFTER the premiership year...I'm talking ridiculous losses to Gold Coast, Carlton, North etc in 2017/18/19 and 20.

There was a day when Sammy Seaton had 25 touches at half-time as an example.

I am not saying Macrae isn't a "good player". He is an excellent ball-winning mid. Do I think he is "wired" to hunt the ball above EVERYTHING else? Yes. Yes I 100% do think that. If me saying that is 'insulting' to you, well, I'm pretty sure you're a big boy and can cope with it. I'm pretty sure it isn't insulting to Jack because he wont be reading it...and if he did and wanted to chat about it then he could reach out and do exactly that.

When I read things like "he doesn't need to tag Oliver, Oliver needs to tag him" it just drives me crazy. The players need to do whatever the coach determines they need to do in order to win the game. Whether that's play in the ruck, back pocket, midfield or in Clayton Oliver's back pocket, that's what they do. If they DON'T want to do that stuff, well, there's always tennis.

Anyway - can we just agree that I never suggested Macrae tag Oliver - I just commented on a thread suggesting him as a candidate that if he was asked too and EMBRACED it that it would represent a big step forward for our club. Can we also agree that both of us think Macrae is an excellent footballer though you believe he is as good at defending as attacking whereas I see him as primarily a ball winner with defensive limitations.

I feel like I have taken my own thread off-the-rails with a debate about whether or not Jack Macrae is a good player...the answer is of course he is.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Perhaps Jackson has been instructed to win the ball because he's a great accumulator and distributor. He's often first to the ball or the first option out of the pack giving it off to his teammates. His kicking has gone up a notch this year too which makes him even more of an effective distributor.

We've certainly had mids over the last few years who haven't at times wanted to do the selfless defensive work, but like Jeemak said, this has been all our mids and not just Jackson.

[bornadog]

There was a day when Sammy Seton had 25 touches at half-time as an example.

We learnt our lesson with that and next time we played Carlton, Macrae was asked to look after Cripps and kept him to 22 touches and accumulated 38 himself.

Anyway, listening to SEN this afternoon the suggestion was made Melbourne should tag Bont and Libba.

[Happy Days]

We learnt our lesson with that and next time we played Carlton, Macrae was asked to look after Cripps and kept him to 22 touches and accumulated 38 himself.

Anyway, listening to SEN this afternoon the suggestion was made Melbourne should tag Bont and Libba.

They will. They've had Jordon covering for their more offensive minded mids all year, and think he'll give Bont some attention.

Re Macrae - think that his "hurt factor" is being drastically undersold. He's literally first in the AFL for score involvements and we've all recognised how damaging he is with the ball either entering 50 or when it's already inside the arc.

But on the other hand, while it was pretty harsh to suggest he focuses more on his individual possessions than team performance, MJP is right in saying that "they should tag me" is some 2013 Matt Boyd nonsense. Everyone should be accountable to something.

Am I crazy in thinking that Macrae actually has done a defensive job before though? Against Geelong I think?

[chef]

I think Libbas untagable the way he plays.

[Mofra]

Am I crazy in thinking that Macrae actually has done a defensive job before though? Against Geelong I think?
Down there at KP where we were just hanging in until Cloke gave away a silly 50 and we then copped an injury.
Macrae's defensive side wasn't natural to him - I still remember him getting dropped after a ~20 possession game, performing at VFL level, then coming back to a 43 & 2 goal game against GCS

When it comes to centre square opposition mids it been a rare occurrence for Bevo to tag someone as a plan A. If one of their mids gets off the chain we can send someone to them as a back up (and Libba is an incredible shut down player) but right now we have enough role players in the side to shut down their dangerous types on the spread (Salem and Newnes just can't be allowed to run around in space) and back our midfielders in to win the head to head battle.

Plan B run with player.... Lachie Hunter. Footy IQ and running capacity off the charts

[hujsh]

They will. They've had Jordon covering for their more offensive minded mids all year, and think he'll give Bont some attention.

Re Macrae - think that his "hurt factor" is being drastically undersold. He's literally first in the AFL for score involvements and we've all recognised how damaging he is with the ball either entering 50 or when it's already inside the arc.

But on the other hand, while it was pretty harsh to suggest he focuses more on his individual possessions than team performance, MJP is right in saying that "they should tag me" is some 2013 Matt Boyd nonsense. Everyone should be accountable to something.

Am I crazy in thinking that Macrae actually has done a defensive job before though? Against Geelong I think?

Him and Libba held Selwood and Danger for the first half in 2016 down there before both got injured

[1eyedog]

Settle down. Happy to debate with you on pretty much any point but if you are going to dismiss my opinion because I live in Perth and can’t go to the footy every week that’s bit of a joke...I doubt you saw too many games in 2020 but seemed to have an opinion on them all the same.

No ones saying Jack isn’t an excellent player. As per my comments pre season though - Prove It. We have a lost number ours games in the years following the premiership due to lack of effort and poor defending. We have started this season well but I am still not a true believer. Sorry if 9 good weeks doesn’t over write 4 years of inconsistency and poor results.

Jack has been getting a heap of the footy. Which is great. He gets a lot of it every week. Also great. Sometimes, opposition mids get a lot of it...not so great.

Running back to help the defenders is good...but mids play on other mids...and that requires a level of sacrifice. Sorry if I have not seen this from our group in the past 4 seasons...sorry if wanting to see it now is disrespectful.

Give me a break.

Fair enough I came across a little heavy handed in defence of Jack and I apologise for that. You being in Perth and not being able to watch most games live certainly does not make your assessment about Jack any less valid. On the contrary, your footballing background makes you probably better placed than anyone on this board to discuss what our players are doing right / could do better.

Obviously I mis-interpreted the metaphor for Jack's defensive (or lack thereof), ability.

[mjp]

On the contrary, your footballing background makes you probably better placed than anyone on this board to discuss what our players are doing right / could do better.


If you saw where my team was on the ladder right now I'm sure you'd change your opinion on this pretty quick smart...

I love Jack as a player and we are lucky to have him. I have no doubt my initial message about him valuing possessions more than winning came across poorly...whilst I meant it I wasn't trying to say he didn't want to win - just that to me his driving force is to get the ball - that's what he was put on the earth to do. Trying to set that aside and play a defensive role is something that is really (really) hard for him.

All of us are different and by extension all players are different.

[1eyedog]

If you saw where my team was on the ladder right now I'm sure you'd change your opinion on this pretty quick smart...

I love Jack as a player and we are lucky to have him. I have no doubt my initial message about him valuing possessions more than winning came across poorly...whilst I meant it I wasn't trying to say he didn't want to win - just that to me his driving force is to get the ball - that's what he was put on the earth to do. Trying to set that aside and play a defensive role is something that is really (really) hard for him.

All of us are different and by extension all players are different.

Ag mate I should have clarified with you first. I see your point and understand the premise behind the post. Thanks for following up.

[SquirrelGrip]

So against the Dees, their plan worked this time around. They played their one wood and didn't have to change it once they got out to an early lead and just kept it for the rest of the night.

Next time around, obviously things need to change from our end. We might get lucky and they get an early injury and be forced into their Plan B, but more realistically we need to mix it up. And it's not just for Melbourne, it's for when we play Richmond or Brisbane or Geelong if they get an early advantage.

As I see it, here are a few options:

1. Experience Returns

Put Dunkley, Treloar and Martin into the side and a few things change immediately - the opposition ruck doesn't get easy clearances, Dunkley can rotate in as a bigger bodied inside mid if Libba is struggling, and Treloar can break lines and provide different entry into (or over) our forward line.

2. Stop the Intercepts

Entry into the forward line has to be better than kicking straight to Lever/May or Bolta/Grimes/Astbury or Harris Andrews. The three headed monster English/Bruce/Naughton didn't stop the intercepts last week, so what will? Is it the addition of Hannan to play defensively up forward and prevent it (as Cordy did in '16)? Does Cordy himself come and do it? Is it two of the three monsters sacrificing to allow the other one to get off the leash (e.g. Bruce and Naughton clamp down on Lever & May so English is the target?). Is it Cody or Hannan who become our avenues to goal? Is it about getting the ball to the 50m+ kicks to just kick it over the intercepts for goal - Dale, Bont, Williams?

3. Clamp down when their mids get on top

Versus the Dees, it was Gawn and Oliver who got the early clearances and challenged us. Bolton dominated the third quarter against the Tiges. If a big bodied ruck is getting clearances when Martin isn't playing, surely Bruce goes in the middle for a bit to throw his body around and create a physical contest. If it's Oliver, I know much of this thread is about Macrae sacrificing his game, but what other options do we have?

McLean shouldn't be far off and has been used in this role in the past with some success. Some have suggested it would be a great step for the development of Bailey Smith - I'm uncertain if he has it in him but I'd love to be proven wrong. Rhylee West or Garcia could work but I think they'd be physically beaten up by someone Oliver's size. For me, I'd have Caleb as an option - whilst small in stature, his tackling and defensive pressure is fierce, and I still remember his game against Sam Mitchell in his first year which really made me stand up and take notice of him. Also, Caleb offensively forward of centre helps our entry inside 50 to dice apart any defensive web and intercept markers.

4. Beat the defensive web

All teams now play the evolution of Hawthorn's original team defence (seemingly designed by Bevo at that time). We certainly do and Richmond have for a number of years. In my opinion, Melbourne's improvement is 90% due to the buy-in of this team defence, combined with the athleticism required to achieve it.

Our way to beat it had been to use elite kicking to slice and dice this full ground press apart, and by and large it has worked this year, being unafraid to take the risk and trust out footwork and teammates. Mentally, we were shot in the first quarter of the Melbourne game when some of our leaders and best ball users didn't execute as we expect. Confidence dropped, the perceived pressure of Melbourne grew, as did their confidence. It's incredible how much of footy is played above the shoulders.

What is important though in beating the defensive web is having the right players in the right position around the ground to beat it. We now have wonderful kicking through our back six with Caleb, Dale, Williams and Duryea, which ideally gets out to our runners like Hunter, Bont, Treloar or Smith to then push up forward. We want some of the elite targeted short passing up closer to the half forward line and first entry into 50 to help beat that web. Maybe at times we need to push one of those defensive four up the ground to provide that better kicking option.


These are just some initial thoughts, open for discussion of course, but we need some extra tactics and options when things get tough.

[bornadog]

Great post SG. Agree with most of what you have said. Not sure about the use of Caleb, but worth a try.

[Mofra]

I was very surprised we didn't bring one marking tall (e.g. English) up into the corridor.
Melbourne's plan was to defend the corridor with their life, and use one disciplined player (Brawshaw) to stop any easy switching to the fat side of the ground.
The easy switch wasn't working, so call them out - have 207cm English either drag their 'third' tall out to go with him, or make a contest exactly where Melbourne don't want us to put the ball.

If in doubt, sticking to "what don't the opposition want us to do" can often give you the best path forward.

Realistically, if we tidy up our disposal that game is a lot closer than it was. 6 goals to turnovers not long after quarter time is an enormous amount to give up.

[GVGjr]

Gee Squirrel it would could get some more contributions like that from you. :) Many thanks

[jazzadogs]

Great post SquirrelGrip. I really hope that we didn't play all of our cards last week.

I've definitely fallen into option 1 when chatting to friends, but I think we need to be careful relying on the return of injured players as the solution to our woes. Both of our losses have followed a similar path in my view - unrelenting pressure for 20-30 minutes, resulting in some poor decisions and skill execution which allow the opposition to score easy goals.

Our system is set up to prevent the opposition getting first use of the ball, which prevents our backline from being caught out 1v1 and reduces opposition scoring. Against poor teams, our midfield can be so dominant that we score quickly and efficiently - occasional rebound goals don't seem to bother us. But against the good teams who a) can apply consistent high-level pressure and b) set up well defensively, we don't seem to have any easily accessible back-up plans.

I really like the idea of having English up the corridor, but that also relies on our mids/half-backs/half-forwards/anyone getting to that contest so we are not outnumbered if it hits the ground. I felt like we were consistently outnumbered at ground-level contests against Melbourne, particularly across our half-forward line.

Re: midfield clamp down, it is definitely needed. Does it need to be one specific player in a lockdown role, or does it need to be wholesale attitude shift through our midfield group? It still felt like we set up at the stoppages to win the ball first, defend second - but I haven't watched a replay to confirm if that was just my in-game frustration.

[SquirrelGrip]

I really like the idea of having English up the corridor, but that also relies on our mids/half-backs/half-forwards/anyone getting to that contest so we are not outnumbered if it hits the ground. I felt like we were consistently outnumbered at ground-level contests against Melbourne, particularly across our half-forward line.


Yes, I think we can all visualise our players being stuck out on the boundary side with the opposition blocking their options, then having our big blonde Tim clunk them in the centre square rather than them having to kick all the way across to the other side of the ground. If he's able to take every contested mark in that position, it would be a thing of beauty. But inherent dangers in going into the centre corridor means that if the ball does go to ground or we are outnumbered, it will mean a quick turnaround and likely scoring opportunity for the opposition.

[Bulldog Joe]

Great post SquirrelGrip. I really hope that we didn't play all of our cards last week.

....

My impression was that we didn't really play any of our cards and just allowed Melbourne to play their game.

While they are trying to force teams wide, I would like to see us lead to the corridor. If Naughton leads up he is so good in the air and recovering a ground ball, I feel he would really make any opposition very wary and change the dynamics of any game.

[Mofra]

Yes, I think we can all visualise our players being stuck out on the boundary side with the opposition blocking their options, then having our big blonde Tim clunk them in the centre square rather than them having to kick all the way across to the other side of the ground. If he's able to take every contested mark in that position, it would be a thing of beauty. But inherent dangers in going into the centre corridor means that if the ball does go to ground or we are outnumbered, it will mean a quick turnaround and likely scoring opportunity for the opposition.
Yes, that is the risk but we were being beaten... so you have to try something.

A very highly rated basketball coach once simplified coaching when you're losing to doing one of two things to change the game - speed it up, or slow it down.
Melbourne forced us to slow the game down from our natural game by defending the corridor, the down the line kick (because of their intercept marking ability with Gawn, May & Lever) and the switch (Brayshaw).
Taking a few chances in the corridor with a tall would force them to change they way they defend the corridor and give us a chance to speed up our ball movement which would make the game far closer tot he way we want to play.

In military terms - they took the initiative and kept it all game.

[comrade]

Yes, that is the risk but we were being beaten... so you have to try something.

A very highly rated basketball coach once simplified coaching when you're losing to doing one of two things to change the game - speed it up, or slow it down.
Melbourne forced us to slow the game down from our natural game by defending the corridor, the down the line kick (because of their intercept marking ability with Gawn, May & Lever) and the switch (Brayshaw).
Taking a few chances in the corridor with a tall would force them to change they way they defend the corridor and give us a chance to speed up our ball movement which would make the game far closer tot he way we want to play.

In military terms - they took the initiative and kept it all game.

It would have only taken one or two good kicks to pierce through the corridor to unsettle Melbourne. As you said, they had the initiative from literally the first bounce and we never looked like taking it back.

[boydogs]

It would have only taken one or two good kicks to pierce through the corridor to unsettle Melbourne. As you said, they had the initiative from literally the first bounce and we never looked like taking it back.

Libba pulled off a couple

[jeemak]

Libba pulled off a couple

They were excellent kicks and really broke open the game. We needed more of that especially exiting defence after the switch.