Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

[Twodogs]

Alrighty. Tell us three things you know now that you didn't know before the game.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[bulldogtragic]

1. Our bad is quite bad. 40+ points from easy turnovers. No one to blame but ourselves.
2. Bevo better have a better plan B when we play them later in the H&A at the MCG.
3. The three headed monster got most our goals. Not sure why we didn’t try to feed it more.
4. Sam Power has just put a line through Lipinski.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

1. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose 2 elite mids, your first ruck, a key defender (Wood) and a couple of roleplayers you're not going to best the top 2-3 sides in the comp. It's just reality.

2. Unfortunately Lipinski is done with us.

3. English looks good - huge positive moving forward.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

1. Our crowd energises us. That's a negative now, but also a positive when hopefully crowds return.
2. Sometimes you've got to lose to learn. I reckon we will learn more out of our losses to Richmond and Melbourne, than they'll gain from the win.
3. I'm still very positive about our prospects. We played as sh1t as we could, and we only lost by less than 30 points.

[josie]

Was Lipinski that bad? Quite a few woofers seem to think so. Was it because he looked slow or a lack of pressure? I actually thought he did a few ok things as an inside mid. Got torched by a dreadful hand pass to him & coughed up a goal. Quite a few others turned ball over leading to 4 goal lead we never could peg back (Libba, Dale, possibly Bont, Macrae, possibly Daniel….).

[macca]

1. Players coming into to replace those who are injured, there is a substantial gap. Lipinski is not an inside mid, can't take a contested mark, and just does not know how to win back the ball. Who was Butler bought in for ? Gawn was a class act tonight, and Sweet should now know how hard he has to work to get to that standard.

2. Pressure, more pressure, makes us crumble back to bad habits. The tigers showed us up for 2 quarters, the demons did it for 4 quarters. Melbourne are the real deal and they were first to the ball to almost everything tonight. Most of our players got outplayed by their direct opponent, fumbled under pressure just did uncharacteristic things. When the team collectively gets beaten, they are playing from 2 steps behind.

3. We lost that hungry tonight. When the ball is not in our position, saw some players ball watching, and waiting for others to win the ball. Missed shots for goal in the 3rd and 4th quarter really deflated us.

Really should not have ended up with a 40 point difference at any stage.

[EasternWest]

Was Lipinski that bad? Quite a few woofers seem to think so. Was it because he looked slow or a lack of pressure? I actually thought he did a few ok things as an inside mid. Got torched by a dreadful hand pass to him & coughed up a goal. Quite a few others turned ball over leading to 4 goal lead we never could peg back (Libba, Dale, possibly Bont, Macrae, possibly Daniel….).

He was pretty bad, but more so he was bad in the same areas.

Being bad is ok, failing to improve in your weak areas is concerning.

[macca]

1. Our crowd energises us. That's a negative now, but also a positive when hopefully crowds return.
2. Sometimes you've got to lose to learn. I reckon we will learn more out of our losses to Richmond and Melbourne, than they'll gain from the win.
3. I'm still very positive about our prospects. We played as sh1t as we could, and we only lost by less than 30 points.

Great point on learning from our loses. Beating St kilda, just affirmed that we can beat lazy teams. Melbourne were hungrier than us tonight and they demanded the ball in every contest.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Was Lipinski that bad? Quite a few woofers seem to think so. Was it because he looked slow or a lack of pressure? I actually thought he did a few ok things as an inside mid. Got torched by a dreadful hand pass to him & coughed up a goal. Quite a few others turned ball over leading to 4 goal lead we never could peg back (Libba, Dale, possibly Bont, Macrae, possibly Daniel….).

He just had zero defensive ability tonight. I reckon coaches can forgive the odd execution error, but when after 4-5 years in the system you still are unable to be relied upon to apply a tackle when it's presented to you more times than not, you're in trouble.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

He was pretty bad, but more so he was bad in the same areas.

Being bad is ok, failing to improve in your weak areas is concerning.

That's the worrying element. More's the worry is that I reckon there was a period of games where he'd played at Footscray in an inside role, got a promotion to the 1sts, did well for a patch of weeks (think it was 2019) and looked to have improved that part of his game...
He's dropped away alarmingly.. He doesn't fit our system right now, and I suspect it's a hard road back for him now. Which must suck extra given he's grown up supporting the Dogs. Sam Power has definitely moved him to the 'available for trade' side of his little red book now.

[bornadog]

1. I learnt we need those good starts, and tonight we lost the first quarter for the first time in 11 games and never recovered.

2. Melbourne may be top, but with a bit of tweaking we can beat them. We lost the last three quarters by a point

3. I hate the game plan od switching the ball from one wing to the other - too dangerous when you don't execute it well

[Vred]

1. That
2. Was
3. Shit

ill see myself out.

1. Our bad is beyond Terrible
2. 2/2 games lost without Anthony Scott
3. Game plan was too predictable, bombing long into Leaver and May killed us, HTB doesn’t exist anymore, Lippa is done.

goodnight

[westdog54]

1. Melbourne have very few weak links right now.
2. I can genuinely see why Roarke Smith is in our list.
3. We'll be out in straight sets in finals without Treloar and Dunkley.

[jeemak]

I think with Lipinski we're now just continually focusing on the things we know he doesn't do well and everything else is a blur.

The review will be kinder to him than it will be to a lot of other players this week because he tried all night and was more productive than a bunch of others.

[Mantis]

I think with Lipinski we're now just continually focusing on the things we know he doesn't do well and everything else is a blur.

The review will be kinder to him than it will be to a lot of other players this week because he tried all night and was more productive than a bunch of others.

But when the things he doesn’t do well continue to let the team down it’s hard to look past them... he has continually been tried as an inside mid and is yet to play with the hardness the role requires (the MC know this as he gets taken away from the midfield rotation mid game when he lets us down) and doesn’t have the skill set to play outside the contest.

When we get some players back he’s going to struggle to hold his place in the team.

[FrediKanoute]

1, Turnovers in the front half hurt;
2. Need a plan B when a team denies space and brings a quality pressure game;
3. Treloar out was a missing bod too far - our midfield is good, but it without Dunks and Treloar in the middle it comes back to the field

[whythelongface]

1. Hard to tell on the TV but Melbourne blocked our space extremely well and we weren’t good enough to work through them. Normally our fast, slick handball allows to be able to create gaps in the opposition’s defence. There was very little of that tonight. Instead we tried to switch the play. Again we didn’t execute this too well with some poor turnovers.

2. All hope is not lost. As BAD mentioned we only lost the last 3qtrs by 1 point. A few tweaks here and there and the addition of a few players - Dunks, Treloar, Martin, Wood and Vandermeer - we should be able to reverse this result come finals. The other plus is that our team had an off night - now is that a case of not turning up or Melbourne’s pressure exploiting some chinks in our game - time will tell.

3. We rate our mids but geez the Dees mids really outplayed us. That Clayton Oliver can play - he is everything I want Pat Lipinski to be - same height, weight and body type.

[DOG GOD]

1. I just cannot watch footy without crowds, especially when we are losing.
2. May and Lever are the 2 backs I wish we had...if we did we’d be unbeatable.
3. Lippa is truly a VFL standard player. Seems like a nice guy, but just a “nice” player too.

[DOG GOD]

But when the things he doesn’t do well continue to let the team down it’s hard to look past them... he has continually been tried as an inside mid and is yet to play with the hardness the role requires (the MC know this as he gets taken away from the midfield rotation mid game when he lets us down) and doesn’t have the skill set to play outside the contest.

When we get some players back he’s going to struggle to hold his place in the team.

Guys like Schache get the finger from the MC because he lacks hardness, yet Lipinski is given chance after chance. He just doesn’t have the balls to be hard at it, in and under. He’s slow, and has no defensive traits. Can’t lay a tackle, and is fast becoming a whipping boy. He’s a good VFL player, but the next step is a step too far. Time to move on.I’d rather see Wallis in the middle (at least he can lay and hold a tackle), and that’s saying something.

[soupman]

Schache and Lipinski are not the same and shouldn't be compared.

Schache isn't getting picked because he lacks intensity, yeah true in part, but more than that we has an inability to get involved in games, does not play a role that is important to us and lacks versatility.

Lipinskindoes a lot well, he is clean with the ball, links up really well, can play midfield or forward, is a decent mark, suits our handball game really well and always gets involved. He lacks the intensity and hardness in the contest that he needs to actually compete with the better sides, but he offers everything else.

I like him, but he does lose key moments too often due to his lack of physicality which will hold him back forever. There are similiar players who have been part of great sides in the past so I'm not writing him off.

[SquirrelGrip]

1. When your best players kick it straight to the opposition, you can’t rely on your role players to make the difference.
2. We need to do whatever it takes to have Stef Martin ready to play in the finals, ready to compete against the competition’s best at the pointy end. He’s our Clark Keating.
3. Dunks & Treloar will be a big difference next time we play the Dees.

[Grantysghost]

1. Melbourne are the real deal.
2. Our midfield needs to do something different against the best pressure sides.
3. English is great.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

1. When your best players kick it straight to the opposition, you can’t rely on your role players to make the difference.
2. We need to do whatever it takes to have Stef Martin ready to play in the finals, ready to compete against the competition’s best at the pointy end. He’s our Clark Keating.
3. Dunks & Treloar will be a big difference next time we play the Dees.

Dunks and Treloar won’t be back next time we play the dees.

[1eyedog]

1. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose 2 elite mids, your first ruck, a key defender (Wood) and a couple of roleplayers you're not going to best the top 2-3 sides in the comp. It's just reality.

2. Unfortunately Lipinski is done with us.

3. English looks good - huge positive moving forward.

But Melbourne lost one elite mid in Viney, one key back in Tomlinson and they've lost role players as well (Hore).

[1eyedog]

Schache and Lipinski are not the same and shouldn't be compared.

Schache isn't getting picked because he lacks intensity, yeah true in part, but more than that we has an inability to get involved in games, does not play a role that is important to us and lacks versatility.

Lipinskindoes a lot well, he is clean with the ball, links up really well, can play midfield or forward, is a decent mark, suits our handball game really well and always gets involved. He lacks the intensity and hardness in the contest that he needs to actually compete with the better sides, but he offers everything else.

I like him, but he does lose key moments too often due to his lack of physicality which will hold him back forever. There are similiar players who have been part of great sides in the past so I'm not writing him off.

Sounds like you're talking about Bailey Dale two years ago when he was the same age as Lipinski. Not sticking up for Lippa he was putrid, but he's a developing player. Are we expecting too much?

[Scorlibo]

1. Melbourne have the best defensive setup in the competition, and we weren't ready for it

2. Fortune favours the brave, and we weren't brave enough with the ball after some skill errors early. Libba had the right idea with his kicks into the corridor. One came unstuck, three created opportunities.

3. Ruckmen are more important at centre bounces than at other stoppages. Max Gawn made Petracca, Oliver and Harmes look like the better midfield at centre bounces.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

But Melbourne lost one elite mid in Viney, one key back in Tomlinson and they've lost role players as well (Hore).

Viney I'll give you, though he's not on Dunkley or Treloars level and IMO is a limited but very good player.

But Tomlinson? He's bog average who was hidden by Lever and May, he's no loss at all as evidenced by Petty (also average) playing the same role.

Melbourne have hardly had to deal with injuries when we're using names like Tomlinson and Hore.

[SonofScray]

1. Crowds do influence umpires. No way a few HTB decisions in front of goal get missed with the fans howling.
2. Commentary is infuriating bad, always bashing the umpires. It’s toxic.
3. We really don’t like to change things up drastically in game at all.

[1eyedog]

Viney I'll give you, though he's not on Dunkley or Treloars level and IMO is a limited but very good player.

But Tomlinson? He's bog average who was hidden by Lever and May, he's no loss at all as evidenced by Petty (also average) playing the same role.

Melbourne have hardly had to deal with injuries when we're using names like Tomlinson and Hore.

You're selling Tomlinson short. He's been fantastic all year and my Melbourne supporting mate is absolutely gutted he's down. He's been way better for them this year than Wood has been for us, and that was the comparison. Have you watched him / Melbourne much this year? While Lever and May have helped him immeasurably Melbourne were very very happy with Tomlinson and they view him as a big loss. Was having a breakout season and was not the player you remember at GWS.

As for Viney he was slated for AA in 2016 but got injured. He's won a B&F and been runner up twice. How many has Dunks won? I'm all for rating our players but sometimes you've got to take the glasses off. Melbourne were two best 22 down, one mid, one defender we are two best 22 mids down and (probably) one best 22 defender down.

As for Hore he's a role player much like ours.

Injuries are no excuse for what we dished up.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You're selling Tomlinson short. He's been fantastic all year and my Melbourne supporting mate is absolutely gutted he's down. He's been way better for them this year than Wood has been for us, and that was the comparison. Have you watched him / Melbourne much this year? While Lever and May have helped him immeasurably Melbourne were very very happy with Tomlinson and they view him as a big loss. Was having a breakout season and was not the player you remember at GWS.

As for Viney he was slated for AA in 2016 but got injured. He's won a B&F and been runner up twice. How many has Dunks won? I'm all for rating our players but sometimes you've got to take the glasses off. Melbourne were two best 22 down, one mid, one defender we are two best 22 mids down and (probably) one best 22 defender down.

As for Hore he's a role player much like ours.

Injuries are no excuse for what we dished up.

Anyone could play as a third tall behind Lever and May. You're giving Tomlinson way too much credit. He really isn't a loss on his own and isn't as important to Melbourne as Wood is to us. That's not rose coloured glasses, it's just fact.

Not sure 'would have been AA if not for injury' is worth mentioning, particularly considering Dunks has had major injuries which has robbed him of the same opportunity. I'd pick Dunks over Viney every day of the week, he can play multiple roles which Viney can't and it's clear we're missing his aerial presence, defensive running and ball winning ability. It's really compounded by our other injuries, especially Treloar. It allows sides to sit on / shut out the likes of Libba. Vineys a loss of course, but anyone who makes the argument that we aren't heavily disadvantaged by injuries in comparison to Melbourne is ignoring a truth about footy - you can't have multiple elite players and key cogs out of your side and expect to beat other top teams.

I agree last night's performance was poor but there are explanations for it. I've ridden the team as hard as any since 2016, last night's result doesn't concern me at all. Staying healthy and st the right time does and we need to continue to bank wins any way we can, especially against the middle to lower teams, until we get key players back.

[1eyedog]

Anyone could play as a third tall behind Lever and May. You're giving Tomlinson way too much credit. He really isn't a loss on his own and isn't as important to Melbourne as Wood is to us. That's not rose coloured glasses, it's just fact.

Not sure 'would have been AA if not for injury' is worth mentioning, particularly considering Dunks has had major injuries which has robbed him of the same opportunity. I'd pick Dunks over Viney every day of the week, he can play multiple roles which Viney can't and it's clear we're missing his aerial presence, defensive running and ball winning ability. It's really compounded by our other injuries, especially Treloar. It allows sides to sit on / shut out the likes of Libba. Vineys a loss of course, but anyone who makes the argument that we aren't heavily disadvantaged by injuries in comparison to Melbourne is ignoring a truth about footy - you can't have multiple elite players and key cogs out of your side and expect to beat other top teams.

I agree last night's performance was poor but there are explanations for it. I've ridden the team as hard as any since 2016, last night's result doesn't concern me at all. Staying healthy and st the right time does and we need to continue to bank wins any way we can, especially against the middle to lower teams, until we get key players back.

Agreed Wood is more important to us than Tomlinson is to them and that really is part of the problem because Wood really hasn't been very good for a long time. He has not played the role of the inceptor since 2016 and has become defensively minded for the benefit of the team. He basically plays third man up. His kicking is dreadful. At the start of the year many didn't have him in the side and he hasn't done a heap to suggest he should be, but he's needed because our second talls are crap.

Viney vs Dunkley / Treloar. Sure, we are down one there and a good one too, but I'm only conceding one as I disagree that (let's say Treloar then and not Dunkley) is a massive upgrade on Viney. So where are we on it? Easton Wood who hasn't been very good for a long time more important to us than Tomlinson, ok, and Dunkley down.

Take out Treloar for Viney because surely that's fair enough. Add Wood if you like but I don't see the improvement there.

That leaves Dunkley. If Dunkley plays last night do we win?

Great that you're not concerned about last nights win, fantastic, but I am. Last night was a mirror image of the GWS final and the Saints Final. Not switched on, beaten up early / completely destroyed not even a top 8 performance in the first half. What I'm trying to say is (as per your OP), we cannot blame injuries for the loss. We could possibly look at the balance of the list, who we brought in etc. but we are mentally weak (still), we overrate our depth and again, Bevo was reluctant to try anything different, hoping it would just turn around for us.

Happy to agree to disagree.

[bornadog]

Agreed Wood is more important to us than Tomlinson is to them and that really is part of the problem because Wood really hasn't been very good for a long time. Viney vs Dunkley / Treloar. Sure, we are down one there and a good one too, but I'm only conceding one as I disagree that (let's say Treloar then and not Dunkley) is a massive upgrade on Viney. So where are we on it? Easton Wood who hasn't been very good for a long time more important to us than Tomlinson, ok, and Dunkley down.

Take out Treloar for Viney because surely that's fair enough. Add Wood if you like but I don't see the improvement there.

That leaves Dunkley. If Dunkley plays last night do we win?

I really don't rate Viney at all. He has been poor for a number of years and is just an average mid who only gets around 20 disposals a game.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agreed Wood is more important to us than Tomlinson is to them and that really is part of the problem because Wood really hasn't been very good for a long time. Viney vs Dunkley / Treloar. Sure, we are down one there and a good one too, but I'm only conceding one as I disagree that (let's say Treloar then and not Dunkley) is a massive upgrade on Viney. So where are we on it? Easton Wood who hasn't been very good for a long time more important to us than Tomlinson, ok, and Dunkley down.

Take out Treloar for Viney because surely that's fair enough. Add Wood if you like but I don't see the improvement there.

That leaves Dunkley. If Dunkley plays last night do we win?

Wood has been very good this year. He's not the intercept king he was in 2015/2016 but he's still important given our structure and lack of KPDs. That he's much more important to us than Tomlinson is to Melbourne is a symptom of our list management, I agree. We really need to find a quality KPD quickly.

If Dunkley plays it's a hell of a lot closer. I think people underestimate the impact of having two first choice elite mids out has. The midfield is our competitive advantage; no side can go with them at full strength IMO. If you took Oliver out of Melbourne last night, all of a sudden sides would put all their time into Petracca and they become a shell of their best self.

You can cover a few injuries, and our depth is great, but when you add Martin (Sweet got hammered as expected) and have to pick kids like Garcia and Butler (because McLean, Richards, Scott, Jong are all out) then last night shouldn't surprise.

[1eyedog]

Wood has been very good this year. He's not the intercept king he was in 2015/2016 but he's still important given our structure and lack of KPDs. That he's much more important to us than Tomlinson is to Melbourne is a symptom of our list management, I agree. We really need to find a quality KPD quickly.

If Dunkley plays it's a hell of a lot closer. I think people underestimate the impact of having two first choice elite mids out has. The midfield is our competitive advantage; no side can go with them at full strength IMO. If you took Oliver out of Melbourne last night, all of a sudden sides would put all their time into Petracca and they become a shell of their best self.

You can cover a few injuries, and our depth is great, but when you add Martin (Sweet got hammered as expected) and have to pick kids like Garcia and Butler (because McLean, Richards, Scott, Jong are all out) then last night shouldn't surprise.

Fair enough I understand and respect your position.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Fair enough I understand and respect your position.

It's a good debate 1ED and why I enjoy this forum so much. What I will say is that this group still needs to prove itself on the big stage and on big occasions, so the jury is still out on that. I was filthy after our recent losses in finals and even after our loss to a depleted Richmond. I just hope we aren't hamstrung by external factors when the next big challenge comes.

[westdog54]

I really don't rate Viney at all. He has been poor for a number of years and is just an average mid who only gets around 20 disposals a game.

Last night just demonstrated how little the Demons miss him.

His one strength is winning clearances and Oliver and Petracca had us well covered there.

I've watched very little of the Demons on the last couple of years and last night was my first good look at Clayton Oliver. I was astonished at just how good he is.

[bornadog]

His one strength is winning clearances and Oliver and Petracca had us well covered there.

We won Clearances 36 to 27. Of those they won 2 extra in centre clearance, but we won Stoppage Clearances.

[Dry Rot]

1. This team continues to have serious questions about handling pressure in crunch games: 2019 SF v GWS; 2020 SF v Saints; and now H&A v Demons.

2. Our depth is not quite as good as we thought, we are now playing guys who are not ready or sub standard now eg Butler.

3. R Smith can play a role; B Smith deserves a stint in the Twos to sort some things out

[boydogs]

English has become an amazing contested mark

Hunter's game stands up in finals like pressure

Lipinski tackles like Gary Ablett Jnr with one shoulder

[Ghost Dog]

1. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose 2 elite mids, your first ruck, a key defender (Wood) and a couple of roleplayers you're not going to best the top 2-3 sides in the comp. It's just reality.

2. Unfortunately Lipinski is done with us.

3. English looks good - huge positive moving forward.

We didn't make these excuses in 2016.

[comrade]

We didn't make these excuses in 2016.

Relying on players to come back is a bit fraught with danger anyway. Let's say there is 8 weeks to go until we get Dunks and Treloar back...are we really going to get through that period unscathed? We're copping injuries every week so hoping we'll overcome the best sides when our best 22 come together is hoping for something that is unlikely to every happen.

[Dancin' Douggy]

1. Melbourne have very few weak links right now.
2. I can genuinely see why Roarke Smith is in our list.
3. We'll be out in straight sets in finals without Treloar and Dunkley.

We really could have used Wallis in the guts. Without Treloar and Dunkley, Wallis has a role.

[Mantis]

1. This team continues to have serious questions about handling pressure in crunch games: 2019 SF v GWS; 2020 SF v Saints; and now H&A v Demons.

2. Our depth is not quite as good as we thought, we are now playing guys who are not ready or sub standard now eg Butler.

3. R Smith can play a role; B Smith deserves a stint in the Twos to sort some things out

Realistically how deep should our depth run?

We probably have 9 of our best 30 missing so when that happens you’re forced into playing those who are ranked lower on the list and many of those aren’t going to be ready to perform against the best teams in the competition... it’s just fact.

[The bulldog tragician]

1. Melbourne are an extremely good side, as someone who watches relatively little footy apart from us, comes as an unwelcome surprise.

2. Our team depends on the energy of the crowd. This lockdown if extended could make a big difference to our fortunes.

3. injuries do matter, no matter the ‘one soldier replaces another’ mantra. Gawn’s influence could have been curbed by being pitted against an experienced campaigner instead of a raw ruckman. Treloar’s run could have broken the lines. The roles being played by Scott and Hannan may have reduced the Demons freedom to intercept mark that damaged us so badly.