Nic Nat and JUH - If West Coast can manage it, why can't we??

[mjp]

So - I actually watched WCE vs Essendon last night (yep, I feel dirty just saying it). And it was an entertaining game played by two pretty exciting teams (sorry). But it also made me think.

Natanui is BY FAR WC's most influential player.

He plays a minutes cap of 70% and supposedly not one second more. He's a massive unit who has broken down a few times and West Coast believe they are better off (far better off) with 70% access to Nic Nat that 0%. Which sounds fair.

I keep hearing how JUH is simply not fit enough to play AFL footy. So why don't we just manage him the same way? He comes on at the 5-minute mark, exits at the 20-minute mark...bing, bang, boom...we have another forward who needs to be accounted for.

Just looking at our forward line right now - if you take Naughton out of the equation, I suspect if we play JUH for the rest of the season instead of ANY OTHER forward on our list, by GF day JUH will be the better player. And no, Bruce kicking 3x goals in the last quarter on Friday really didn't inspire me to love him any more...every time we play a 'big' game he fails to deliver (with the potential exception of the PA game a couple of weeks back).

Thoughts?

[DOG GOD]

I agree. It’s a matter of time..If I was on the MC I’d be looking to unleash JUH after these next 3 games (Freo, Geel, WC). Imagine him debuting against NM at Marvel to give him a taste and a little less pressure, only then to play the following week, on the same ground as Buddy. Now THAT would be great viewing.

But absolutely, JUH has the ability to be able to do more with 50% game time than some others at 90%.
The time is soon I feel. ..well it should be anyway.

[Mantis]

Maybe this was the plan all along, but the head knock came at just the wrong time.. now with the COVID week off he won't have played for 4 weeks come this weekend so the fitness base he had been building has probably dissipated.

Agree that we need to give him a taste... hopefully he gets to play this weekend and if he can string a couple of good games in a row he should be a good chance to play after our bye.

It was good to hear JUH on the WB podcast talk about working on his fitness base whilst he hasn't been playing.

[jeemak]

Has anyone heard anyone call out that JUH has been doing extras and absolutely everything he can to get his fitness base up and fast track his path to playing senior football?

I haven't, and possibly it's not publicised that he has been, though that's the type of thing I do want to hear coming out of the club for a guy we'd be pretty eager to get senior experience into.

[Happy Days]

Well maybe that's because its Nic Naitanui they're managing, of course he's worth playing 70% of the time and hamstringing your rotations over.

JUH is no lock to be any sort of meaningful contributor in the AFL yet.

[DOG GOD]

Well maybe that's because its Nic Naitanui they're managing, of course he's worth playing 70% of the time and hamstringing your rotations over.

JUH is no lock to be any sort of meaningful contributor in the AFL yet.

Well, we certainly had a few passengers against Melb.

[Cyberdoggie]

I think the difference is he's a first year player and doesn't have a history of injuries or any body of work to consider the option.

I don't see why he should be treated any differently to the other players, that only creates problems in the group.

I'm sure he will get his chance when he's ready, having watched him a bit so far i agree that he's just a bit lazy/not fit enough.
Wouldn't last the game at AFL level.

[GVGjr]

Nic Nat is a proven commodity so therefore managing him to 70% playing time you pretty much know what your are going to get
JUH however, is an unknown commodity and I think he carries a higher level of an injury risk even at 70% playing time especially given he didn't play much last year.

I'd also ask the question of if he really fits into our forward line at the moment?

We will have to play him soon so I suspect a managed playing time is the best outcome

[bornadog]

. And no, Bruce kicking 3x goals in the last quarter on Friday really didn't inspire me to love him any more...every time we play a 'big' game he fails to deliver (with the potential exception of the PA game a couple of weeks back)

Halfway through the season and Josh has kicked 33 goals - I am more than happy with that.

On the idea of bringing JUH in, I would. Give the kid a taste and see how he goes.

[The bulldog tragician]

Three things would concern me about this:

Nic Nat has done umpteen pre seasons building a powerful body - JUH has not. It’s not just aerobic capacity, it’s upper body strength that he lacks.

Could his confidence be dented if he comes in and fails to dazzle? With all that number one draft pick attention, I’d be worried that a debut before he’s ready could knock that carefree attitude he seems to have for six.

And..can he play the team role? I suspect he’ll want to fly for speckies and attempt goal and mark of the week, every match. We already have Naughton and Weightman loving the spectacular mark, and it’s taken a while for Bruce and Naughton to build chemistry and understanding. Is Jamarra ready to sometimes do dummy leads, sometimes take his man to a dead pocket, sometimes shepherd instead of fly, or will he be too impatient (a la Rhylee West) to do the heroic things we’ve all been told he can and will do.

[DOG GOD]

The majority seem to think JUH is still a long way off, so what’s the likelihood we WONT see him debut this year? Surely that would dent his confidence more..the #1 draft pick (not injured) not playing for the year.

[bulldogtragic]

I’ve said it before, it’s a conceptual thing. If Jamarra was taken at Pick 1 as a super quick (2.95 seconds over 20m), athletic (8.3 seconds agility run), big leaping (93cm running vertical leap), small pressure forward with x-factor who loves to tackle at 178cm we’d probably have played him. The thing is, he’s all of those things except that he’s much taller, 195cm. So if you look at his extra height as just a ‘bonus’, he’s got the tools to be playing in a role more akin to small or medium forward who has 10-15cm on his opponent. At this point in his development I personally don’t see him competing against Bruce or Naughton, or even Schache, I have him against Hannan, VDM, Wallis, Scott, McNeil, Weightman, West, JJ, Bedendo. The closest comparison in combine results for Jamarra is actually Cody Weightman in terms of the tools he has (both excellent but Jamarra better) plus Jamarra has that bonus of extra height.

A bit of buzz and youthful exuberance might be a way of bringing that energy back to the group after Friday night.

[Grantysghost]

The majority seem to think JUH is still a long way off, so what’s the likelihood we WONT see him debut this year? Surely that would dent his confidence more..the #1 draft pick (not injured) not playing for the year.

He's not a long way off at all. I honestly wonder if half the issue is his more laconic disposition. For a first year player he's simply not that bad.

He will play soon, he will be as fit as most first year players of his size.

I think we need to reset our collective mindset regarding his fitness or lack thereof.

As for the OP and managing his time, would that not be reasonably normal for a first year KPP? For eg McDonald's (Swans pick 4) first 3 games this season were 72,72,74 percent time on ground.

I'd see something like this being appropriate for Jamarra too.
I think there's been a number of factors as to why he hasn't played so far mainly :

- lack of u /18s so being conservative and giving him time to get back up to speed with his match fitness.
- team doing so well
- recent concussion

On the last point I dare say he may have played Friday considering the injuries.

[DOG GOD]

Well I think the NM game would be the ideal game to debut, with Sydney, GC and Adel to follow. That would be a nice patch for him.

[mjp]

Three things would concern me about this:

Nic Nat has done umpteen pre seasons building a powerful body - JUH has not. It’s not just aerobic capacity, it’s upper body strength that he lacks.
Well - he's a young player. For the next 7-8 seasons he is going to be building his strength...at some point, he needs to play in order to understand exactly how strong he needs to become.




Could his confidence be dented if he comes in and fails to dazzle? With all that number one draft pick attention, I’d be worried that a debut before he’s ready could knock that carefree attitude he seems to have for six.
Every week there is a referendum on whether a player is considered 'good' by his coach/mc. It's called selection. If you think he will lose confidence playing, I'm here to tell you he is definitely losing confidence NOT playing.




And..can he play the team role?

Is there anything about JUH that makes you think he isn't a team-oriented player? If he is flying for marks when he shouldn't, then we need to coach him...but we can't coach him until he plays!

[mjp]

Halfway through the season and Josh has kicked 33 goals - I am more than happy with that.

Well, take away the 3 junk time goals against Melbourne. Take away the 10 against North.

I am just not sold. He has been better this year - 100% agree. I am really waiting for that game when he is playing against a quality opponent - and just delivers ANYWAY. Or that mark/goal when we are 100% desperate for it.

Am I saying he should be first out? Nope. But I am saying that if we decided the forward line moving forward would be English, Naughton, Jamarra instead of English, Naughton Bruce I wonder where would be at come GF day (should we get the opportunity to play that long) then I would kind of shrug my shoulders and say that on the body of work I have seen over 1.5 seasons, I understand where the MC is coming from.

[Mofra]

What's the rush?
Bruce is a mature body and after 2021 is contracted for two more years. It seems weird we would throw JUH in early (he just doesn't look ready) only to have $600-700k worth of mature player sitting in the VFL.
If anything, JUH could play as that forth player/mid sizer (due to his speed) once his defensive ability is even passable for AFL level. I think he's a few weeks off that and given we are sitting 2nd on the ladder and should rightfully consider ourselves as contenders this year, JUH plays when he's ready.

[DOG GOD]

What's the rush?
Bruce is a mature body and after 2021 is contracted for two more years. It seems weird we would throw JUH in early (he just doesn't look ready) only to have $600-700k worth of mature player sitting in the VFL.
If anything, JUH could play as that forth player/mid sizer (due to his speed) once his defensive ability is even passable for AFL level. I think he's a few weeks off that and given we are sitting 2nd on the ladder and should rightfully consider ourselves as contenders this year, JUH plays when he's ready.

Even if that is mid next year ? Surely by not playing, it’s hurting his confidence and putting MORE pressure on the kid ? How many #1 draft picks wouldn’t have played a game for 18 months of being drafted (uninjured) ?

[mjp]

What's the rush?
Bruce is a mature body and after 2021 is contracted for two more years. It seems weird we would throw JUH in early (he just doesn't look ready) only to have $600-700k worth of mature player sitting in the VFL.


I am not sure we should be worried about how much he is getting paid to play in what competition. The contract is signed and done - what happens next is up to him and being a 'mature body' really isn't doing it for me.

I just wonder when we are going to find out what we might have? We know what we have now - we know that vs Richmond and Melbourne when the heat came it wasn't enough. We have injury excuses to throw up against the wall - so, there's that I guess. But the players who are injured aren't coming back anytime soon. So why not find out what else we've got?

[Grantysghost]

Even if that is mid next year ? Surely by not playing, it’s hurting his confidence and putting MORE pressure on the kid ? How many #1 draft picks wouldn’t have played a game for 18 months of being drafted (uninjured) ?

Probably never. But they also get drafted into the bottom side.
It's a good discussion, from the defensive side of things I liked what he produced in the game he was concussed in the limited time he was on.
Couple of chase downs, one where he was injured. It's hard with the big 3 down there to add another but we need to get him in and have a look I think. Maybe manage Bruce for a game and play Marra.

[DOG GOD]

Probably never. But they also get drafted into the bottom side.
It's a good discussion, from the defensive side of things I liked what he produced in the game he was concussed in the limited time he was on.
Couple of chase downs, one where he was injured. It's hard with the big 3 down there to add another but we need to get him in and have a look I think. Maybe manage Bruce for a game and play Marra.
I agree, and surely North is THAT game. I’d give him 2 games to get the taste. North and Sydney, both at marvel....hopefully.

[Go_Dogs]

We need to get JUH in over the next 4 weeks to see if he can be a viable contributor in September.

Don’t mind the idea - but not across the detail of what it means for our rotations generally and if it increases the risk of other players getting injured / recovering slower.

[bornadog]

Well, take away the 3 junk time goals against Melbourne. Take away the 10 against North..

He kicked 1 goal in the 2nd quarter.

You can take away what you want, the fact remains he has kicked 33 and on target to kick more than 50 goals. No one has done that since 2015 at the Dogs.

[bornadog]

Jamarra on plane to Sydney

Edit - false alarm

[DOG GOD]

Jamarra on plane to Sydney
For the experience I’d say.

[bulldogtragic]

Jamarra on plane to Sydney

I think if we can announce early he’s playing, if he is, that should inject a strong enthusiasm in the group and excitement around us that seemed missing on Friday night.

[bulldogtragic]

For the experience I’d say.

You know he has flown on planes before now?

[bornadog]

Jamarra on plane to Sydney


For the experience I’d say.


I think if we can announce early he’s playing, if he is, that should inject a strong enthusiasm in the group and excitement around us that seemed missing on Friday night.

Sorry could be false alarm :o

[DOG GOD]

You know he has flown on planes before now?

Umm yeah, I’m referring to the experience of flying to Perth with a squad. We don’t normally fly a week before the game. I hope he is there to play, but I’d be shocked if he does.

[DOG GOD]

Sorry could be false alarm :o
Haha cmon Bornadog

[GVGjr]

He kicked 1 goal in the 2nd quarter.

You can take away what you want, the fact remains he has kicked 33 and on target to kick more than 50 goals. No one has done that since 2015 at the Dogs.

The goal kicking performance of Bruce isn't something you wanted to focus on last year preferring to measure his value against his physicality he displayed. I'm glad we've now moved past that.
While I agree he's had a good enough season pointing to the goals tally doesn't always measure the value of a player.

From a possessions perspective he's had 3 lean weeks after an impressive performance against the Blues but I'll concede the fact that he's hit the scoreboard in every game is impressive.

Back to Marra, he will be in the senior side soon enough but at the moment I have trouble finding a spot in the forward line for him.

[bornadog]

Haha cmon Bornadog

Someone told me, then they realised it was not.

don't know if he is going? sorry.

[bornadog]

The goal kicking performance of Bruce isn't something you wanted to focus on last year preferring to measure his value against his physicality he displayed.
.

I was trying to find a reason why he was not dropped, and it was Bevo who said his physicality was contributing to the team. Wasn't something I agreed with.


I'm glad we've now moved past that.
.

I don't think you have because you keep bringing it up.

[EasternWest]

You know he has flown on planes before now?

Far out this made me laugh out loud.

[Happy Days]

Yo so is he going or not?

[bornadog]

Yo so is he going or not?

Stevo confirmed No Jamarra and no Wallis

[bulldogtragic]

Far out this made me laugh out loud.

My gift for your lockdown.

[Grantysghost]

Stevo confirmed No Jamarra and no Wallis

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ab2tLKySwKI48/giphy.gif

[comrade]

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ab2tLKySwKI48/giphy.gif

Opportunity missed to get Jamarra away with the team for a week.

[The bulldog tragician]

Well - he's a young player. For the next 7-8 seasons he is going to be building his strength...at some point, he needs to play in order to understand exactly how strong he needs to become.



Every week there is a referendum on whether a player is considered 'good' by his coach/mc. It's called selection. If you think he will lose confidence playing, I'm here to tell you he is definitely losing confidence NOT playing.




Is there anything about JUH that makes you think he isn't a team-oriented player? If he is flying for marks when he shouldn't, then we need to coach him...but we can't coach him until he plays!

Looks like I’m wrong on all 3 concerns I raised :( however, this is all part of the conversations on Woof.

Does it make a difference if we consider it from the perspective of whether his inclusion helps our chances in a year where we are contending, or whether it’s about nurturing his talent (the longer term?)

[1eyedog]

Well - he's a young player. For the next 7-8 seasons he is going to be building his strength...at some point, he needs to play in order to understand exactly how strong he needs to become.



Every week there is a referendum on whether a player is considered 'good' by his coach/mc. It's called selection. If you think he will lose confidence playing, I'm here to tell you he is definitely losing confidence NOT playing.




Is there anything about JUH that makes you think he isn't a team-oriented player? If he is flying for marks when he shouldn't, then we need to coach him...but we can't coach him until he plays!

Is he really losing confidence not playing? I think Weightman waited late last year? Surely he's coachable and the coaching staff are working closely with him, reinforcing what he is doing right and instructing where he needs work, looking after his self-esteem? They'll know when he's ready.

I'd prefer not to rush him for a perceived fast-tracked return.

[mjp]

Does it make a difference if we consider it from the perspective of whether his inclusion helps our chances in a year where we are contending, or whether it’s about nurturing his talent (the longer term?)

I think playing him now helps us.

Watching the Melbourne game, I just dont think we have 'enough' to worry the likes of Lever and May. We have Naughton who worries literally everyone - in terms of attack on the ball and defensive pressure. And we have Bruce who worries no-one. That's probably unfair I guess, but it must be 30-games in to his Bulldogs career and I am yet to see him perform in a 'meaningful' game. Why not see if the other player - the supposed most talented player in the draft who we took with the #1 overall selection! - can provide 'something'.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Stevo confirmed No Jamarra and no Wallis

With no VFL that says a lot about where those two are at.

[soupman]

With no VFL that says a lot about where those two are at.

Does it? At this stage we are looking at our squad travelling interstate for the Freo game and a bye? Surely we are basically just taking a group for this weekend and maybe enough to cover a game the following week just in case.

Any later games will be far enough away that either Melbourne is not locked down or we can fly up a more extended squad to wherever we end up.

On top of that, there is definitely no VFL interstate, but there might be in Melbourne in one of the two next weeks, so considering JUH hasn't played in a while maybe it's better that he stays here, keeps training with the players left behind, instead of being an awkward +1 on the trip for one game that he isn't even in consideration for? I'm tipping players don't really like going on an "adventure" with their teammates where they spend the entire time in the hotel for no actual reason, when they could be at home having backyard picnics with their pretty girlfriend and maybe getting a run in the VFL where they'll kick 6.

[Hotdog60]

If JUH comes in for a game and Bruce doesn't deserve to be dropped it might be time to throw Bruce to full back and see how it goes.

[Topdog]

Bruce was awful last year so I'm not sure including those games helps to paint an honest picture.

He is a different player this year and was good against West Coast, Carlton and Port this season in games that troubled us. Along with many others he was quite poor against the Dees.

[GVGjr]

Bruce was awful last year so I'm not sure including those games helps to paint an honest picture.

He is a different player this year and was good against West Coast, Carlton and Port this season in games that troubled us. Along with many others he was quite poor against the Dees.

Agreed, he's performing far better than last season although it's the lowest of benchmarks.
He doesn't deserve to be dropped.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Does it? At this stage we are looking at our squad travelling interstate for the Freo game and a bye? Surely we are basically just taking a group for this weekend and maybe enough to cover a game the following week just in case.

Any later games will be far enough away that either Melbourne is not locked down or we can fly up a more extended squad to wherever we end up.

On top of that, there is definitely no VFL interstate, but there might be in Melbourne in one of the two next weeks, so considering JUH hasn't played in a while maybe it's better that he stays here, keeps training with the players left behind, instead of being an awkward +1 on the trip for one game that he isn't even in consideration for? I'm tipping players don't really like going on an "adventure" with their teammates where they spend the entire time in the hotel for no actual reason, when they could be at home having backyard picnics with their pretty girlfriend and maybe getting a run in the VFL where they'll kick 6.

We've practically taken every available player to Sydney except these two and maybe 1 or 2 others. Everyone else is injured.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I can't understand this discussion around Bruce. He's leading our goal kicking and is near the top of the Coleman. Sure there are questions around his ability to impact big games, but we could say that about a lot of our players. He was very good against Port (as were most of our players and it's the 1 game where we've stood up in a crunch game) and has been a presence up forward all season.

He didn't have a great game against the Dees but still managed to kick 3. You could barely count the number of players who had a good game against the dees on one hand. I think the issues around performing against quality opposition are issues for our team as a whole rather than just certain individuals.

[bornadog]

I can't understand this discussion around Bruce. He's leading our goal kicking and is near the top of the Coleman. Sure there are questions around his ability to impact big games, but we could say that about a lot of our players. He was very good against Port (as were most of our players and it's the 1 game where we've stood up in a crunch game) and has been a presence up forward all season.

He didn't have a great game against the Dees but still managed to kick 3. You could barely count the number of players who had a good game against the dees on one hand. I think the issues around performing against quality opposition are issues for our team as a whole rather than just certain individuals.

Spot on. I don't know what last year has got to do with any ones form.

I can't believe a guy kicks 33 goals in 11 games in the RWB and we aren't satisfied? Wow.

[Bulldog4life]

Spot on. I don't know what last year has got to do with any ones form.

I can't believe a guy kicks 33 goals in 11 games in the RWB and we aren't satisfied? Wow.

This year he has been very accurate too which is a huge plus for any forward.

[Mofra]

If JUH comes in for a game and Bruce doesn't deserve to be dropped it might be time to throw Bruce to full back and see how it goes.
Do we have to drop Bruce to fit JUH in though?
JUH is quick - seriously quick - and if his tank is up to scratch he can provide defensive pressure which is really what people mean when they trot out the old "top heavy" line.
I just don't think his repeat sprint ability is where we want it (yet).

No cricket team was ever stupid enough to name 4 quicks until the Windies dominated test cricket for two decades by doing it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Spot on. I don't know what last year has got to do with any ones form.

I can't believe a guy kicks 33 goals in 11 games in the RWB and we aren't satisfied? Wow.

I get 10 of those 33 were against North. But what's he meant to do? Kick less? We aren't happy with him kicking bags of 3 and 10?

He and Naughton have worked beautifully this year. There were a few issues this weekend but that was more on forward 50 entry and on English as that cohesion isn't yet there.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Do we have to drop Bruce to fit JUH in though?
JUH is quick - seriously quick - and if his tank is up to scratch he can provide defensive pressure which is really what people mean when they trot out the old "top heavy" line.
I just don't think his repeat sprint ability is where we want it (yet).

No cricket team was ever stupid enough to name 4 quicks until the Windies dominated test cricket for two decades by doing it.

I don't think so. I think he can come in for that Hannan role. Now if English has come in for Hannan, then things get a little tricky in the ruck.

I'm not sure JUH has the tank yet to replace a Scott, McNeil or JJ.

[Mantis]

Do we have to drop Bruce to fit JUH in though?
JUH is quick - seriously quick - and if his tank is up to scratch he can provide defensive pressure which is really what people mean when they trot out the old "top heavy" line.
I just don't think his repeat sprint ability is where we want it (yet).

No cricket team was ever stupid enough to name 4 quicks until the Windies dominated test cricket for two decades by doing it.

Naughton also has the ability to play small with his elite speed and ground game so agree it's not like we would be playing 4 dinosaurs if the forward-line included English, Bruce, JUH & Naughts.

If JUH didn't receive the untimely head knock I'm thinking he would've played by now, and the resulting enforced break has put him behind, but once he does debut it's up to him to if he stays in the team, and the form of other our forwards to what the make up of the team is come finals time.

[comrade]

#SendNaughtonBack

[Happy Days]

Bruce has been really good this year and I'm way more frustrated by our willingness to play into the Dees' hands through our ball movement allowing them to hit their exact defensive structure than I am with Bruce for only kicking three goals.

[mjp]

Do we have to drop Bruce to fit JUH in though?

OK. To be fair my first post said 'anyone but Naughton'. I have (from there) focussed in on Bruce for two reasons:

1/. Saying he has kicked 33 goals this year is a great PR exercise. Forget the North Melbourne witches hats - he kicked 2 in the final quarter against Melbourne which really (really) agitated me for some reason. He seemed most energetic when the game was OVER.

2/. Saying 'what has last year got to do with this year'...well, at some point you have to look at a players body of work. I just wonder exactly what we are hoping to get from Bruce against the better teams in the comp and we only have 18-months of history to look at...those 18-months are pretty darned dismal. My take is he is a big, strong mature body who can beat up on younger defenders (who are in the bottom teams) or if he gets an occasional 'good matchup' against a good team...but that second one quite literally NEVER seems to happen. Or maybe it has but I missed it??

I look at our list for alternatives and we have two high draft picks sitting there - one tried, one untried.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we should play Schache over Bruce, but I would suggest you could mount an argument that - given a similar number of chances - he would deliver a similar outcome. Then of course there is Jamarra.

I suppose I am surprised that more people are not pushing for us to find out what the kid has got. We have NO HISTORY with this player - sure, we can watch his VFL performances and suggest he isn't ready...but truthfully no-one really knows what is going to happen when he gets a chance. It might be 'fish to water' or it might be 'fish to dinner plate'...but why wouldn't we try to find out?

Back to my original post, if West Coast can operate their MOST IMPORTANT player on a minutes cap and stick too it, surely we can do the same with someone who would be player #22 in the side??

[Mofra]

I suppose I am surprised that more people are not pushing for us to find out what the kid has got. We have NO HISTORY with this player - sure, we can watch his VFL performances and suggest he isn't ready...but truthfully no-one really knows what is going to happen when he gets a chance. It might be 'fish to water' or it might be 'fish to dinner plate'...but why wouldn't we try to find out?

Back to my original post, if West Coast can operate their MOST IMPORTANT player on a minutes cap and stick too it, surely we can do the same with someone who would be player #22 in the side??
NicNac isn't coming back from ~12 months without footy though. This kid looks gassed late in quarters and late in games at VFL level where due to the (stupid) idea of having different rules at VFL and AFL level he is doing less running than he would be required to do at AFL lvel.

I get the feeling everyone wants JUH in the team ASAP, but we disagree on what level of 'ready' he is at.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Bruce has been really good this year and I'm way more frustrated by our willingness to play into the Dees' hands through our ball movement allowing them to hit their exact defensive structure than I am with Bruce for only kicking three goals.

Yeah this. The same thing happened after half time against the tigers. We played right into their hands.

We also picked the worst night to not apply any pressure in our forward line. I saw a lot of standing around once the ball hit the deck.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

OK. To be fair my first post said 'anyone but Naughton'. I have (from there) focussed in on Bruce for two reasons:

1/. Saying he has kicked 33 goals this year is a great PR exercise. Forget the North Melbourne witches hats - he kicked 2 in the final quarter against Melbourne which really (really) agitated me for some reason. He seemed most energetic when the game was OVER.

2/. Saying 'what has last year got to do with this year'...well, at some point you have to look at a players body of work. I just wonder exactly what we are hoping to get from Bruce against the better teams in the comp and we only have 18-months of history to look at...those 18-months are pretty darned dismal. My take is he is a big, strong mature body who can beat up on younger defenders (who are in the bottom teams) or if he gets an occasional 'good matchup' against a good team...but that second one quite literally NEVER seems to happen. Or maybe it has but I missed it??

I look at our list for alternatives and we have two high draft picks sitting there - one tried, one untried.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we should play Schache over Bruce, but I would suggest you could mount an argument that - given a similar number of chances - he would deliver a similar outcome. Then of course there is Jamarra.

I suppose I am surprised that more people are not pushing for us to find out what the kid has got. We have NO HISTORY with this player - sure, we can watch his VFL performances and suggest he isn't ready...but truthfully no-one really knows what is going to happen when he gets a chance. It might be 'fish to water' or it might be 'fish to dinner plate'...but why wouldn't we try to find out?

Back to my original post, if West Coast can operate their MOST IMPORTANT player on a minutes cap and stick too it, surely we can do the same with someone who would be player #22 in the side??

Bruce's history against quality sides wasn't exactly great during his time at the saints either. I get what you're saying but I still think he's been more than OK this year. I can't think of a forward in the competition who would have had an impact playing for us on Friday night. The entries were woeful. Our entire team goes missing in crunch games. That needs fixing above all else.

I agree that we need to see JUH this year. We need to see what he's got. Some players just rise to the occasion at AFL level. But for a team that is pushing for top 4, we can't experiment by dropping our leading goal kicker. We might get away with it against North or the Hawks so perhaps he should debut then. Unfortunately COVID and concussion are not helping his cause.

[Mofra]

We have a leading goalkicker curse anyway so Bruce will win our goalkicking award this year then suffer some incredible misfortune before the start of the 2022 season.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We have a leading goalkicker curse anyway so Bruce will win our goalkicking award this year then suffer some incredible misfortune before the start of the 2022 season.

You mean Billy Gowers' sweet stuff will run out?

[Happy Days]

You mean Billy Gowers' sweet stuff will run out?

Bruce went past Bill's 2018 season total in the Carlton game. Gowers' "leading goalkicker" winner status was the falsest of flags and just showed how impotent our attack was at the time.

[mjp]

I get what you're saying but I still think he's been more than OK this year.

The KC Chiefs went deep into the playoffs and still sacked Alex Smith (pre- leg break) to insert Patrick Mahomes.

[Mofra]

Bruce went past Bill's 2018 season total in the Carlton game. Gowers' "leading goalkicker" winner status was the falsest of flags and just showed how impotent our attack was at the time.
Sam Lloyd
Mitch Wallis

It's a curse. Bruce is in the firing line

[bulldogtragic]

Sam Lloyd
Mitch Wallis

It's a curse. Bruce is in the firing line

So Naughton shouldn’t kick more goals than Bruce in the next 11 games ?!?!?!?!?

[comrade]

So Naughton shouldn’t kick more goals than Bruce in the next 11 games ?!?!?!?!?

Another good reason to send him back to CHB :D

[SquirrelGrip]

Listening to Barkly Street podcast last week, I felt JUH sounded remarkably comfortable with the situation, talking about how he trusts Bevo with what he is doing. This wasn't a guy frustrated by lack of opportunities - this was a young man who has had clear communication about what is going on, what he needs to do, and what the plans of the team are.

Even with his head knock, he has been doing extra running and training. Gut-running, speed and defensive pressure are all key attributes for our forwards (unfortunately for Wally), so if JUH can build his base for these, I have no doubt he will around the mark finals-time. So many first year players reach a wall during the season. My gut feel is that we are trying to avoid that for JUH so he is in peak form at the right time of the year.

[Mofra]

TBH one other reason I don't want to rush him is because of the Hannan situation - he looked underdone in his last VFL game before playing in the seniors and his first two games at AFL level weren't great. He seemed to be rushed in.
That is a 27 year old senior player. JUH as a kid would arguably fare worse.

[hujsh]

Spot on. I don't know what last year has got to do with any ones form.

I can't believe a guy kicks 33 goals in 11 games in the RWB and we aren't satisfied? Wow.
This time two years ago we looked like missing finals for the third year in a row and now we're 9-2 having lost to the reigning premiers on their turf and the ladder leaders in an empty stadium and (some) people are FAR from impressed with the team.

I say try to enjoy the good times while they last. We're playing good, entertaining and competitive football most weeks and have shown enough to indicate we should be playing at least 2 finals this year. If you can't enjoy a start to the year like this then I don't really get what enjoyment you get from the game. Even if the last loss was disappointing.

Bruce is a bit of a microcosm of that I guess where our second forward (Naughts is clearly number 1 and the guy with the ability to turn a game on it's head) is close to the Coleman and we're not happy.

Bruce for the most part hasn't been a big player in big games I suppose (how many have there been? How many have the club performed well in?) but he has absolutely kicked key goals at key moments in games we could have lost and may well have if he was performing to 2020 standards.

[The Doctor]

I love the idea of Jamarra coming in. During the Melbourne game while Lever and May were so difficult to beat I was wondering whether Jamarra might have made a difference. I think it could work for sure. How would they be able to counter all of Naughton, Bruce, English & Jamarra if we play our cards right in terms of structure.

[Axe Man]

All key forwards are going to have games where they struggle to get involved, whether through a lack of supply, a good opponent or simply having an off night. In such games surely all you can ask is they make the most of their limited opportunities, which is exactly what Bruce did on Friday.

[mjp]

All key forwards are going to have games where they struggle to get involved, whether through a lack of supply, a good opponent or simply having an off night. In such games surely all you can ask is they make the most of their limited opportunities, which is exactly what Bruce did on Friday.

Well, we had 52x i50's - more than Melbourne.

Josh had 0 contested marks and I think 4-possessions. I'm not sure in what world that is making the most of his opportunities.

[comrade]

Well, we had 52x i50's - more than Melbourne.

Josh had 0 contested marks and I think 4-possessions. I'm not sure in what world that is making the most of his opportunities.

Bruce was also up against a far superior defensive group than Melbourne was and their forwards also got plenty of clean looks due to unforced turnovers. Our guys were leading, waiting, leading, backing up etc while we played switcheroo across the ground.

I thought Bruce was a lot worse against Richmond where he did have good chances and muffed them.

[Happy Days]

Bruce was also up against a far superior defensive group than Melbourne was and their forwards also got plenty of clean looks due to unforced turnovers. Our guys were leading, waiting, leading, backing up etc while we played switcheroo across the ground.

I thought Bruce was a lot worse against Richmond where he did have good chances and muffed them.

Yeah this one is on the mids for their conservative play and for the backline distributors for their horrible distribution. It's one thing for Melbourne to "trust the tackler" or whatever but another to be totally bemused by it for an entire game.

Bruce is having a really good year. Don't know how you could conclude otherwise.

[jeemak]

Well, we had 52x i50's - more than Melbourne.

Josh had 0 contested marks and I think 4-possessions. I'm not sure in what world that is making the most of his opportunities.

Just because the ball enters the forward fifty it doesn't mean it's party time for the forwards.

[Mofra]

Yeah this one is on the mids for their conservative play and for the backline distributors for their horrible distribution. It's one thing for Melbourne to "trust the tackler" or whatever but another to be totally bemused by it for an entire game.

Bruce is having a really good year. Don't know how you could conclude otherwise.
Melbourne defended the ground better than any team I've seen this year.
Brayshaw in particular just held position really well to not allow our defenders an easy switch. For a 'see ball, get ball' type to be able to do that was impressive.

[Happy Days]

Melbourne defended the ground better than any team I've seen this year.
Brayshaw in particular just held position really well to not allow our defenders an easy switch. For a 'see ball, get ball' type to be able to do that was impressive.

Harmes too. Part of the genius of his tag on Libba was when he chose not to bull rush him and put heat on.

Freo defended the whole ground really impressively against Port, and have shown a willingness to tank the individual games of their mids to stop the opposition. I think we can and should expect more of the same this week and it will be interesting to see our response.

[bornadog]

Harmes too. Part of the genius of his tag on Libba was when he chose not to bull rush him and put heat on.

Freo defended the whole ground really impressively against Port, and have shown a willingness to tank the individual games of their mids to stop the opposition. I think we can and should expect more of the same this week and it will be interesting to see our response.

Bevo did say they will be making some tweaks this week.

[Axe Man]

Well, we had 52x i50's - more than Melbourne.

Josh had 0 contested marks and I think 4-possessions. I'm not sure in what world that is making the most of his opportunities.

I'm not about to go back and watch that horror show again but I can't recall Bruce not marking much that he had a decent look at. As mentioned inside 50 numbers alone don't mean much. Perhaps he didn't work hard enough up the ground but it's really difficult to tell on TV.

I don't think anyone is claiming he had a great game, but he was a fair way from our worst in my opinion.

[ratsmac]

Is Nic Nat's managed game time costing the team late in games? West-coast have been over run a few times this season. While Nic sitting on the bench he is holding up rotations.

I think we should pick and choose the games JUH plays depending on who we play. It is flirting with form somewhat but we have banked some wins so far this year so we have the luxury to do so. But I am in the play JUH this season at some point basket

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think we should pick and choose the games JUH plays depending on who we play. It is flirting with form somewhat but we have banked some wins so far this year so we have the luxury to do so. But I am in the play JUH this season at some point basket

I recon we missed the opportunity with JUH. While English was out we should have guaranteed him two games. We were undefeated and he could have played then logically been dropped for Tim. That would have given him a taste and shown him how far off he really is. Hoping that he knuckled down to improve for a later return in the back of the year.

The issue is now with out injuries to key players, if we drop games they will get nervous about playing him and then when the injured players start coming back he most likely not going to be ahead of them.

It’s a really good problem to have while your winning games of football. But I would love him to get an opportunity this year along with West getting another crack sldo

[MrMahatma]

I recon we missed the opportunity with JUH. While English was out we should have guaranteed him two games. We were undefeated and he could have played then logically been dropped for Tim. That would have given him a taste and shown him how far off he really is. Hoping that he knuckled down to improve for a later return in the back of the year.

The issue is now with out injuries to key players, if we drop games they will get nervous about playing him and then when the injured players start coming back he most likely not going to be ahead of them.

It’s a really good problem to have while your winning games of football. But I would love him to get an opportunity this year along with West getting another crack sldo

But the message has been that JUH isn’t ready, and in the past month he’s not played footy due to concussion and COVID.

I’ve not heard it said he won’t get picked when ready, and I assume that remains the case.

It’ll be great to see him play but all along the message from Bevo has been about sustained form in the 2s before getting a gig, and that Jamarra isn’t quite ready yet.

I suspect we’ll see him in the coming weeks but he’ll need to put in a couple of matches in the 2s again to get fit enough after a lay off.

[soupman]

I'm not too fussed. History shows we love playing first year players, often surprisingly early. If JUH isn't getting a game yet I doubt it's because we don't want to play him, as soon as we think be is a viable option he'll be in.

[bornadog]

I'm not too fussed. History shows we love playing first year players, often surprisingly early. If JUH isn't getting a game yet I doubt it's because we don't want to play him, as soon as we think be is a viable option he'll be in.

He is 19 years old, plenty of time.