Our best midfield (if we didn't have to worry about other positions)

[Dry Rot]

DR, Johnno might get more of a chance to play in the midfield it will all depend on how well Welsh performs. The midfield is a popular place...Aker also wants a shot in there aswell. Looking forward to watching it all unfold.

So what would be our best midfield if he didn't have to worry about other positions? Some combo of this?

Aker, C Cross/West, Johnno

R Hudson, Cooney, Griffin/Gilbee

[Sockeye Salmon]

So what would be our best midfield if he didn't have to worry about other positions? Some combo of this?

Aker, C Cross/West, Johnno

R Hudson, Cooney, Griffin/Gilbee

The thing about midfields is that you can't just list 1 ruckman and 5 midfielders. Rotations are so important you have to almost double that.

Ruck - Hudson 70%; Minson 30%
Inside mids - West, Cross, Boyd (60-70% each = two positions permanently)
Outside mids - Ray, Aker, Cooney = 2 positions
Casuals - Johnson, Higgins, Giansiracusa = 1 position

Griffen, Gilbee & Hargrave - ball users off half back
Eagleton will have to fit in there somewhere as well (he's not in my best 22 but we'll never have our best 22 on the park so he'll probably play every game).

[Go_Dogs]

Inside mids - West, Cross, Boyd (60-70% each = two positions permanently)

And this is where we'll continue to get hurt. (Although, unlike SS I would definitely classify Cooney as an inside mid. He's good in the contested situation and reading the ball from the centre breaks.) Until we have more inside players who can really hurt with their acceleration and foot skills we're going to be behind the pack imo.

FWIW, my best midfield combo would consist of guys like, Cross, Cooney, Griffen, Akermanis, Ray, West, Boyd and Gilbee. Giansiracusa and Higgins may also spend more time following the ball around this year.

The problem with it is, that we really need Gilbee at least, and possibly Griff to play quite a large part of football in the back half, and play Aker forwards, along with Higgins and Gia for the most part. That leaves us with essentially a group of Westy, Boyd, Cross, Cooney and Ray who'll be pretty much, 'just midfielders'.

[Dancin' Douggy]

The thing about midfields is that you can't just list 1 ruckman and 5 midfielders. Rotations are so important you have to almost double that.

Ruck - Hudson 70%; Minson 30%
Inside mids - West, Cross, Boyd (60-70% each = two positions permanently)
Outside mids - Ray, Aker, Cooney = 2 positions
Casuals - Johnson, Higgins, Giansiracusa = 1 position

Griffen, Gilbee & Hargrave - ball users off half back
Eagleton will have to fit in there somewhere as well (he's not in my best 22 but we'll never have our best 22 on the park so he'll probably play every game).

I've never been a fan of the 'inside' midfielder and 'outside' midfielder division.
I'd prefer the midfield to be something like Cooney Griffin and Higgins. They can all kick goals from outside 50. They are all fast and dangerous. Make THEM get their own ball instead of relying on a blue collar 'inside' midfielder to shovel it out to them. I think this creates Lazy soft outside runners, and hard nosed but slow and less skilled ball winners.

The Eagles midfield of Judd Kerr and Cousins had no "inside ' or 'outside' players. They all got their own ball and they could all kill you on the scoreboard.

Picture this. The siren goes in a grand final and we're two points down. We have a free kick 40 meters out, slight angle. Would you like to see the ball in the hands of Cross/West/Boyd or Cooney / Griffen / Higgins.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I've never been a fan of the 'inside' midfielder and 'outside' midfielder division.
I'd prefer the midfield to be something like Cooney Griffin and Higgins. They can all kick goals from outside 50. They are all fast and dangerous. Make THEM get their own ball instead of relying on a blue collar 'inside' midfielder to shovel it out to them. I think this creates Lazy soft outside runners, and hard nosed but slow and less skilled ball winners.

The Eagles midfield of Judd Kerr and Cousins had no "inside ' or 'outside' players. They all got their own ball and they could all kill you on the scoreboard.

Picture this. The siren goes in a grand final and we're two points down. We have a free kick 40 meters out, slight angle. Would you like to see the ball in the hands of Cross/West/Boyd or Cooney / Griffen / Higgins.

Yeah, I don't understand why we just don't draft midfielders like Judd with our picks.

It's not about inside/outside it's about the best players you've got. It just so happens that West and Cross are two of our best players and their weeknesses are leg speed and kicking. They have to play that 'inside' role or they're not AFL players any longer.

If Cross and West are at the bottom of packs then there has to be someone for them to give it to. Someone who can run and kick.

I don't want Aker or Gilbee on their hands and knees getting dirty, I want them in space delivering pinpoint passes to Johnson and Welsh. That doesn't mean they don't go when it's their turn, it's about everyone playing to their strengths.

[bornadog]

I would throw Murphy in the midfield. I was watching a video tape on the weekend of Grants 250th game and Murphy was in the centre doing very well. I think he has the skills, he is elusive, can turn on a bit of speed and is a pretty good kick and decision maker.

[Mantis]

It's not about inside/outside it's about the best players you've got. It just so happens that West and Cross are two of our best players and their weeknesses are leg speed and kicking. They have to play that 'inside' role or they're not AFL players any longer.

Yes they do, but they have gotten away from this type of role. I never want to see West or Cross running past for a handball receive, but they do and it kills our momentum. West has the correct thoughts, but can't execute his skills whereas Cross gets lost when in open play and does more 360's than a Western Suburbs hoon. I would much prefer to see them hang back across the wings or half back waiting for the rebound rather than to go forward and cough it up. I understand there will be times when they need to work hard going forward, but there needs to be a much better balance.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Now that's just being sarcastic about "picking players like Judd" SS.

I've named Cooney and Griffen. They ARE players like Judd. But they haven't been given the responsibility of taking command of the midfield. While they have West and Cross shoveling it out to them they will always be outside players. Is it worth considering that we might be better off without Cross and West. As much as I love Westy and Cross, maybe that good old Blue collar Bulldog midfield is what's holding us back. I can't think of many teams that tolerate Poor kicks in their midfield like we do.
And it goes a long way back too. Cross West Libba Jose Atkins Plough.... Is that one reason we can't get across the line?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Now that's just being sarcastic about "picking players like Judd" SS.

I've named Cooney and Griffen. They ARE players like Judd. But they haven't been given the responsibility of taking command of the midfield. While they have West and Cross shoveling it out to them they will always be outside players. Is it worth considering that we might be better off without Cross and West. As much as I love Westy and Cross, maybe that good old Blue collar Bulldog midfield is what's holding us back. I can't think of many teams that tolerate Poor kicks in their midfield like we do.
And it goes a long way back too. Cross West Libba Jose Atkins Plough.... Is that one reason we can't get across the line?

OK. So the reason we're no good is because of our good players. Riiigght. Let me think about that one for a minute.

Perhaps if we had a forward or two it might help?


Picture this. The siren is about to go in a grand final and we're two points down. We have a free kick 80 metres out. Who would you like to see leading for the ball? Tony Lockett or Will Minson?

(To answer your question regarding the free kick for goal I'd like to see the ball in the hands of Scott Welsh actually).

[westdog54]

Now that's just being sarcastic about "picking players like Judd" SS.

I've named Cooney and Griffen. They ARE players like Judd. But they haven't been given the responsibility of taking command of the midfield. While they have West and Cross shoveling it out to them they will always be outside players. Is it worth considering that we might be better off without Cross and West. As much as I love Westy and Cross, maybe that good old Blue collar Bulldog midfield is what's holding us back. I can't think of many teams that tolerate Poor kicks in their midfield like we do.
And it goes a long way back too. Cross West Libba Jose Atkins Plough.... Is that one reason we can't get across the line?

In a word, no.

With most teams, when the ball is at the bottom of a pack, play will stop for a ball up.

When you have a player like Cross or West in said pack, that ball up will more than likely not eventuate, and the ball will end up in the hands of one of those 'outside players'.

What's stopping Cooney and Griffen from taking command of the midfield? Simple. West and Cross are older, more experienced and are better leaders. Nothing whatsoever to do with the type of player they are.

To suggest that Cross and West are holding us back from a flag (and don't try to back away from what you said, here are your exact words...

"Is it worth considering that we might be better off without Cross and West. As much as I love Westy and Cross, maybe that good old Blue collar Bulldog midfield is what's holding us back"

... to say that is absolute rubbish. Greg Williams didn't hold Carlton back from a flag, or himself from two Brownlows.

Good to see your sarcasm meter is in good working order as well.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I said. " is it worth considering"

[westdog54]

I said. " is it worth considering"

And I answered you very clearly, but I'll do it again.

No its not.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I disagree Westdog54 . I think it's worth considering.

[westdog54]

I disagree Westdog54 . I think it's worth considering.

Tell me this then, why do you believe that Cross and West are holding us back from a premiership, and how you believe we would have done for the past decade without Scott West on our list.

And allow me to present an alternative to your little 'scenario'. We're 5 points down in a Grand Final, there's a ball up 30 metres out directly in front of our goal, with about 20 players surrounding the pack. Who do you want at the bottom of that pack to get the ball to someone who can kick a goal? Cross/West, or Cooney/Griffen/Higgins.

I know my preference.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Tell me this then, why do you believe that Cross and West are holding us back from a premiership, and how you believe we would have done for the past decade without Scott West on our list.

And allow me to present an alternative to your little 'scenario'. We're 5 points down in a Grand Final, there's a ball up 30 metres out directly in front of our goal, with about 20 players surrounding the pack. Who do you want at the bottom of that pack to get the ball to someone who can kick a goal? Cross/West, or Cooney/Griffen/Higgins.

I know my preference.

I'm talking about a long history of midfielders who are not great kicks.
You are misquoting me by simply saying I believe Cross and West are holding us back from a premiership. Put it this way. If, in '97, '98 Libba, West and Jose were EXCELLENT kicks on top of their other strengths. Say they were slotting goals from 50m out or pinpointing passes down the forwards throats as well as doing what we loved them for I believe we would have made the GF at least in '97 and probably won.

I know you can't always have a perfect list but I'm imagining a perfect midfield.
If you build a midfield where each player can Get their own ball as well as burst out of the centre and slot goals from 50, SURELY that's a better scenario. I'm suggesting that we have never had in my memory a midfield like that and premiership teams often do. (Think Eagles and Cats)

As far as my "little scenario goes" Any of these guys can get the ball from under a pack. Granted West and Cross are better at it but you can't decide in the heat of the moment who will dive under the pack. It's wherever the ball lands. I'd rather have Griffen get it out to Higgins for a shot on goal than Cross get it out to West. (If it ever actually happens the romantic in me would rather see West kick the goal but I'd prefer Higgins chances)

By the way, this is a theoretical discussion. Not a battle. I love Scotty West and he has been an absolute tower of strength on the field. Maybe having West Cross and Boyd in the same midfield is too much. Maybe Cooney and Griffen will never blossom into Mid field power Houses like Ablett, Judd or Kerr until more responsibility is put on their shoulders, and it's not left up to players like Cross and West to do all their dirty work.

[Sockeye Salmon]

As far as my "little scenario goes" Any of these guys can get the ball from under a pack. Granted West and Cross are better at it but you can't decide in the heat of the moment who will dive under the pack. It's wherever the ball lands. I'd rather have Griffen get it out to Higgins for a shot on goal than Cross get it out to West. (If it ever actually happens the romantic in me would rather see West kick the goal but I'd prefer Higgins chances)


This has less to do with who gets the ball than you think. The player who acts first, the one who doesn't hesitate for a split second just throws himself at the ball will get their hands on it.

Put Eagleton and Cross 5 metres apart. Put the ball 1 m from Eagleton. Cross will get it (then handball it to Eagleton, probably).

[westdog54]

I'm talking about a long history of midfielders who are not great kicks.
You are misquoting me by simply saying I believe Cross and West are holding us back from a premiership.

No I'm not. Here's that quote again:

Is it worth considering that we might be better off without Cross and West. As much as I love Westy and Cross, maybe that good old Blue collar Bulldog midfield is what's holding us back.

I can do the maths.


I know you can't always have a perfect list but I'm imagining a perfect midfield.
Perfect midfield? Come on, who ever has a perfect midfield?


As far as my "little scenario goes" Any of these guys can get the ball from under a pack. Granted West and Cross are better at it but you can't decide in the heat of the moment who will dive under the pack.

But you can decide who gets the free kick 40 metres out? Give me a break.


By the way, this is a theoretical discussion. Not a battle. I love Scotty West and he has been an absolute tower of strength on the field. Maybe having West Cross and Boyd in the same midfield is too much. Maybe Cooney and Griffen will never blossom into Mid field power Houses like Ablett, Judd or Kerr until more responsibility is put on their shoulders, and it's not left up to players like Cross and West to do all their dirty work.

So the only way that Cooney and Griffen will be elite midfielders is if we trade Cross and make West retire. Got it. Thanks.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Don't you think any midfield would be better if the "inside" players could kick long and straight as well. And the 'outside' players could get their own ball if needed. I started my DISCUSSION by saying I'm not a fan of dividing midfielders into inside and outside players. Will you at least concede that?

Also you are not really reading my quote. I said.
"is it worth considering......" and "MAYBE our blue collar midfield is holding us back........" referring to a long list of players. I did not say "West and Cross ARE holding us back from a premiership"

I'm opening a line of discussion not forcefully stating an opinion.

By the way, Who was the Blue collar ball gatherer shovelling it out to Cousins Kerr and Judd?
Trade Cross? For a good key forward?............mmmmmmmmmmm

[Sockeye Salmon]

Don't you think any midfield would be better if the "inside" players could kick long and straight as well. And the 'outside' players could get their own ball if needed. I started my DISCUSSION by saying I'm not a fan of dividing midfielders into inside and outside players. Will you at least concede that?

Also you are not really reading my quote. I said.
"is it worth considering......" and "MAYBE our blue collar midfield is holding us back........" referring to a long list of players. I did not say "West and Cross ARE holding us back from a premiership"

I'm opening a line of discussion not forcefully stating an opinion.

By the way, Who was the Blue collar ball gatherer shovelling it out to Cousins Kerr and Judd?
Trade Cross? For a good key forward?............mmmmmmmmmmm

Kerr and Fletcher (then later Priddis).


Trade Cross and in 2 years time they'll be no-one getting the ball to Cooney and Griffen.

Don't you remember just a few years ago when West had to do all the ball winning on his own?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Kerr and Fletcher are not blue collar

[GVGjr]

Kerr and Fletcher are not blue collar

Whats your definition of blue collar? I rate them as very classy blue collar types

[Mantis]

Trade Cross and in 2 years time they'll be no-one getting the ball to Cooney and Griffen.

Don't you remember just a few years ago when West had to do all the ball winning on his own?

Bull dust.

Cooney will win his own ball so to will Griffen.

The infatuation we have with our own players is giving me the shits.

[hujsh]

Bull dust.

Cooney will win his own ball so to will Griffen.

The infatuation we have with our own players is giving me the shits.

Cooney yes Griff could but not sure.

When West goes we will have IMO

C: Higgins Cross Ray

R:Hudson Cooney Griff

Boyd first on off the bench

Pretty good balance IMO

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'm saying Kerr and Fletcher are fast skilled goal kicking midfielders as well as being high possession gatherers. Not just blue collar ball winners.

[LostDoggy]

I love Scotty West and if it wasnt for him our performances in the last 10 years would have been much worse that they were. BUT, as long as we rely on West playing the main midfield role for us, we wont win a premiership. He is slow (pace), cant kick over 40 meters and just doesnt have the penetration on his kicks. Compare his kicking skills to those of Griffen / Cooney / Aker / Higgins and they just dont wash up. I think we will see Westy playing a pretty different role this year - more run with roles and less of a free reign to just go and win the ball. Someone on the bottom of the packs is important, but surely at the elite level you need to have the full bag of skills (kicks / pace) to be a premier midfielder. Griffen / Cooney have the goods to be an elite midfielder, I just hope that Rocket gives them the responsibility now.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Here Here Mantis. Of course they can win their own ball!

[Dancin' Douggy]

I love Scotty West and if it wasnt for him our performances in the last 10 years would have been much worse that they were. BUT, as long as we rely on West playing the main midfield role for us, we wont win a premiership. He is slow (pace), cant kick over 40 meters and just doesnt have the penetration on his kicks. Compare his kicking skills to those of Griffen / Cooney / Aker / Higgins and they just dont wash up. I think we will see Westy playing a pretty different role this year - more run with roles and less of a free reign to just go and win the ball. Someone on the bottom of the packs is important, but surely at the elite level you need to have the full bag of skills (kicks / pace) to be a premier midfielder. Griffen / Cooney have the goods to be an elite midfielder, I just hope that Rocket gives them the responsibility now.

Thankyou Teddy 54, I love Westy too but what's the point of drafting no1 pick and no 3 pick midfielders with the full bag of tricks if you don't let them take over the midfield?

[LostDoggy]

I fully agree Dancin' Douggy - fully agree!

[westdog54]

Kerr and Fletcher are not blue collar

Bollocks. Kerr and Fletcher are about as blue collar as it gets.

Kerr will have to step up and take a different role now that Judd and Cousins are gone, and Priddis will become more Scott West-like than he already is.

[Dancin' Douggy]

You think Kerr is a blue collar midfielder? You're mad.

And who said anything about Priddis? He was not part of their premiership midfield. He didn't even play.

[GVGjr]

You think Kerr is a blue collar midfielder? You're mad.

And who said anything about Priddis? He was not part of their premiership midfield. He didn't even play.

In my opinion he is an elite midfielder with a blue collar worth ethic. Does that make me mad?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Bull dust.

Cooney will win his own ball so to will Griffen.

The infatuation we have with our own players is giving me the shits.

So our good players are the reason we've been no good?

Here's me thinking it's been our crap players fault.

[Dancin' Douggy]

So our good players are the reason we've been no good?

Here's me thinking it's been our crap players fault.

Who are our crap players SS :confused:?

[Dancin' Douggy]

In my opinion he is an elite midfielder with a blue collar worth ethic. Does that make me mad?

AhAA! An elite midfielder with a blue collar work ethic. Perfect. Neither one or the other,:) but both in the same package. You finally get it. well done old boy!

[Sockeye Salmon]

Who are our crap players SS :confused:?

Going forward or looking back?

Seeing as we have been speaking about past failures, I'll be specific about last year.

Ray - underperformed to date.
Murphy - struggled most of last year.
Grant - his time had come, too slow.
Hahn - poor last year.
Eagleton - only works one way.
Street - a liability around the ground.
Williams - encouraging but not there yet.
Darcy - never got over his knee, a liability last year.
Power - thank Christ he's gone.
Faulkner - one game and it was a shocker.
Higgins - glimpses but not consistant enough.
Aker - see Higgins.
Addison - long way from AFL standard.
McMahon - his good was good, bad was terrible.
Minson - never got going.
Everitt - while encouraging for a 1st year player, wasn't really up to AFL standard just yet.
Robbins - lost his zip and had nothing left to contribute.
Hill - one game, out of his depth.
Mcdougall - hopeless up forward, a couple of good games in the backline late in the season.
Skipper - can be a role player as a back-up ruckman at best, maybe.
Tiller - not up to it yet.
Wight - not AFL standard.
Harbrow - see Everitt.
Lynch - two games, nowhere near AFL standard yet.

All of these guys are more to blame for our failures last year that Cross or West.
Some will become good AFL players in time, some won't.
Some were once and will be again. Some were once but have gone.

West and Cross have already proved that they are top line AFL players and until their output drops off they will remain two of the most important blokes we have.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Thanks SS. Now I know who our crap players are.
Sheeesh!!!!!!!!

[hujsh]

Going forward or looking back?

Seeing as we have been speaking about past failures, I'll be specific about last year.

Ray - underperformed to date.
Murphy - struggled most of last year.
Grant - his time had come, too slow.
Hahn - poor last year.
Eagleton - only works one way.
Street - a liability around the ground.
Williams - encouraging but not there yet.
Darcy - never got over his knee, a liability last year.
Power - thank Christ he's gone.
Faulkner - one game and it was a shocker.
Higgins - glimpses but not consistant enough.
Aker - see Higgins.
Addison - long way from AFL standard.
McMahon - his good was good, bad was terrible.
Minson - never got going.
Everitt - while encouraging for a 1st year player, wasn't really up to AFL standard just yet.
Robbins - lost his zip and had nothing left to contribute.
Hill - one game, out of his depth.
Mcdougall - hopeless up forward, a couple of good games in the backline late in the season.
Skipper - can be a role player as a back-up ruckman at best, maybe.
Tiller - not up to it yet.
Wight - not AFL standard.
Harbrow - see Everitt.
Lynch - two games, nowhere near AFL standard yet.

All of these guys are more to blame for our failures last year that Cross or West.
Some will become good AFL players in time, some won't.
Some were once and will be again. Some were once but have gone.

West and Cross have already proved that they are top line AFL players and until their output drops off they will remain two of the most important blokes we have.

I would call that brutal honesty.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would call that brutal honesty.

Yes but don't dare to mention that Cross or West have less than perfect foot skills.
Can't say that.:confused:

[bornadog]

Going forward or looking back?

Seeing as we have been speaking about past failures, I'll be specific about last year.

Ray - underperformed to date.
Murphy - struggled most of last year.
Grant - his time had come, too slow.
Hahn - poor last year.
Eagleton - only works one way.
Street - a liability around the ground.
Williams - encouraging but not there yet.
Darcy - never got over his knee, a liability last year.
Power - thank Christ he's gone.
Faulkner - one game and it was a shocker.
Higgins - glimpses but not consistant enough.
Aker - see Higgins.
Addison - long way from AFL standard.
McMahon - his good was good, bad was terrible.
Minson - never got going.
Everitt - while encouraging for a 1st year player, wasn't really up to AFL standard just yet.
Robbins - lost his zip and had nothing left to contribute.
Hill - one game, out of his depth.
Mcdougall - hopeless up forward, a couple of good games in the backline late in the season.
Skipper - can be a role player as a back-up ruckman at best, maybe.
Tiller - not up to it yet.
Wight - not AFL standard.
Harbrow - see Everitt.
Lynch - two games, nowhere near AFL standard yet.



and they were the good points:D wow

Now lets talk about the future SS

[hujsh]

Yes but don't dare to mention that Cross or West have less than perfect foot skills.
Can't say that.:confused:

I think people just feel strongly about the really good players. When i first joined WOOF i got in an argument about Johno. I don't see this happen for Cam Wight

[westdog54]

Yes but don't dare to mention that Cross or West have less than perfect foot skills.
Can't say that.:confused:

Neither did Paul Couch or Greg Williams.

Both were brownlow medallists, Williams played in a premiership, Couch a couple of grand finals.

They sure held their teams back didn't they?

[Mantis]

So our good players are the reason we've been no good?

Here's me thinking it's been our crap players fault.

No, they haven't. We both no that.

But to think that West and others are faultless and have been carrying the team is a myth.

If West, Johnson and Smith actually kicked the ball to a few others 5 or 6 years ago our development as a team may have been fast-tracked and we wouldn't have been in the predicament we were/ possibly still in.

[Mantis]

Neither did Paul Couch or Greg Williams.

Both were brownlow medallists, Williams played in a premiership, Couch a couple of grand finals.

They sure held their teams back didn't they?

Lie.

He was probably the best non-dominant kick of his time, til D.Jarman came along anyway.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Paul Couch kicked 203 goals in 259 games.
Greg Williams kicked 217 goals in 250 games.

They were both good kicks.

[Dry Rot]

This has been an interesting read. Clearly there are different POVs, but after all this how does our midfield compare with the rest of the comp?

Top 4? 4-8? 9-12? Bottom 4?

[Mantis]

This has been an interesting read. Clearly there are different POVs, but after all this how does our midfield compare with the rest of the comp?

Top 4? 4-8? 9-12? Bottom 4?

There was a thread on the main page of BF about this very topic. The author of that thread had us in the 9-12 bracket which is probably about right.

To jump up the list we need Cooney, Griffen, Higgins and Ray to really come on to give us a bit of flair and class that is required.

We have cake in West, Cross and Boyd and now Hudson we just need the cream on top.

[Dry Rot]

There was a thread on the main page of BF about this very topic. The author of that thread had us in the 9-12 bracket which is probably about right.

.

If that's a fair rating, and adding in an unproven forward line and a backline missing a CHB then we're probably not looking at finals action unless Cooney, Griffen, Higgins and Ray really step up this year.

[Mantis]

If that's a fair rating, and adding in an unproven forward line and a backline missing a CHB then we're probably not looking at finals action unless Cooney, Griffen, Higgins and Ray really step up this year.

I wouldn't think our forwardline is unproven. Yes Minson is a bit of an unknown, but we have added Welsh from last year who is a proven performer. We still have Johnson who is an elite small forward and we will hopefully get a better return from Akermanis, Murphy and Hahn who will have more confidence in there bodies this year. Kicking goals wont be a worry. We do need our forwards to chase a little harder this year having a fit Aker and Harbrow will help, but we need the likes of Higgins, Johnson and Murphy to lift there efforts in this area.

We do need a CHB and the sooner Williams and even Everitt return the better, but I think our developing backline is ok. We may struggle for the first 4 to 6 games, but hopefully a few players step up so that we can get by.

Our midfield is the one area we can move forward quickly. Cross, West and Boyd are very good players who need there roles more refined this year and yes we need the players you mentioned to step up, but from what we have seen in the pre-season I am pretty confident they will.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Paul Couch kicked 203 goals in 259 games.
Greg Williams kicked 217 goals in 250 games.

They were both good kicks.

Tony Shaw is a premiership captain and Norm Smith medalist.
Brett Kirk is a (joint) premiership captain.
Robert Harvey hasn't kicked a ball over 40 metres in 15 years.

[wimberga]

So I suppose our Midfield is basically made up of

West Boyd Cross Cooney, and then rotating thrugh would be the likes of Hahn, Aker, Gia, Higgins, Griff?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Tony Shaw is a premiership captain and Norm Smith medalist.
Brett Kirk is a (joint) premiership captain.
Robert Harvey hasn't kicked a ball over 40 metres in 15 years.

Have to admit they are good examples SS.
If Cross (and I'm not saying he can't or won't) develops the on field presence and leadership of Shaw and Kirk, and if he can start to break tackles, weave through congestion and play direct purposeful footy like Harvey great too. Maybe that's what his future holds.

I think this thread has morphed into a for or against Cross/West argument.

I'm not against Cross or West, I'm against the idea of having clearly defined 'inside' and 'outside' midfielders. Where the 'inside' players aren't expected to have strong foot skills, and the 'outside' players are groomed to wait for someone else to get the ball to them.

If Gilbee could teach Cross how to kick like him, we'd be laughing all the way to September. If Cooney , Griffin, Higgins etc were capable of getting the footy like Cross and Westy as well, we'd have an incredible midfield. :):):)

[westdog54]

After the StKilda game I thought it timely to bump this thread.

I don't think the likes of Griffen and Cooney can be accused of not being willing to win their own ball.

DD, please don't take this as a dig at yourself as you made some very good points at the time.

I just think its worth reminding ourselves that some of our pups are really starting to grow up, and that Cross will have a role to play for many years to come.

A thought just occured to me, how would this be for our 2012 starting midfield:

Cordy, Griffen, Cooney, Hill

The mouth waters.