Lets make the hard calls

[GVGjr]

With a humbling loss fresh in everyone's minds what will be our approach before reloading again for 2022

Coaches
Do we look to find a couple of new assistants to freshen up our approach or do we stick with the team that has served us well in 2021? Lets assume that the departure of King has been confirmed.

2021 GF 22 vs 2022 Round 1 22
Who comes in for Round 1 in 2022 and who gets dropped?

Our trade targets?
We need a ruckman but what else?
And which players are we prepared to part with assuming some clubs come calling?

Lets unwrapped the mystery of Josh Schache
Where does he play in 2022? Do we keep him?

Do we just need some minor tweaks or a more comprehensive review?
It's probably not as bad as it looks on today's performance but what do we need to do to keep improving?

[Grantysghost]

**deleted**

[Vred]

Coaches
Steven King is walking to GCS, so that's already our midfield/ruck coach gone. We need to target someone who has fresh ideas (not someone who's been with us already). Someone who can fix our defensive mid-field game and ruck work. I'd PERSONALLY move on both Smith and Hansen as well, I WOULD of targeted Teague as our forward line coach, arguably one of the best in the business, but that ship has sailed, so I doubt we move on our other two already-contracted coaches but a replacement for King is a good step in the right direction.

Can't comment on ins'/outs' for round 1 yet.

Trade Targets:
1. A number 1 ruckman who can play the season out, if BigFooty trade thread is to believed, we're after Ceglar from the Hawks, this does NOT thrill me and isn't fixing the issue long term. If we could somehow pry Nank out of Richmond I'd be happy with that, I'd also consider straight swapping Lynch for Lippa.

So our ruck department would look like:
Nank
Lynch
English
Sweet (rookie)

We need a ready-made KPD badly, Darcy isn't the answer, his a bean pole and will take years to come on, Tarrant from NM would of been great, but again, his off to Richmond so I'm not sure who target now. Realistically we have ONE A-Grade defender in Keath and then a bunch of 3rd strings in Gardiner, Cordy and Young, we need another topshelf A Grade defender down back.
Wood needs a tap on the shoulder and to be shown the door, why we gave him two years I'll never know, I'd rather give Buku / Schache that role next year then give Wood another game.

Midfield is fine, needs tuning, and a competent ruckman, wouldn't target anything there.

Forward line still lacks a natural crumbing forward, Weightman flys to much and needs to stay down, word is our future F/S in Kai Dimattina is a very good small crumbing forward but I don't think we can pick him up until next years draft, so I doubt it's something we look to fill anyway considering our other concerns.

[josie]

Is English going to be the ruck/forward we hoped he would be? I’ve been worried for a while. Tonight made me that bit more worried. If he wants to move back to WA I think we should seriously consider it.

I also think we should consider one or two experienced, seasoned coach assistants (ex senior coaches) to support Bevo.

A competitive ruck of course. Gardner to replace Cordy. Smith & Treloar more time in the midfield as we need more speed there. Richards in side. Perhaps Caleb to play more midfield.

[The Underdog]

The King departure was confirmed by Sam Edmund. Hopefully we go outside the club for a replacement.

Would like to see Ed come in for Easton. Not as strong in the air, but strong bodied and gives pace and run. Marra up forward with Schache, Naughton and Cody.
More time for Smith and Treloar in the middle. We lacked massively for burst tonight when it counted.

Aside from Lipinski and Wallis, I wouldn’t be surprised if West wants out, although i rate him and would like to hold onto him but I can’t see us doing anything drastic.

[Vred]

The King departure was confirmed by Sam Edmund. Hopefully we go outside the club for a replacement.

Would like to see Ed come in for Easton. Not as strong in the air, but strong bodied and gives pace and run. Marra up forward with Schache, Naughton and Cody.
More time for Smith and Treloar in the middle. We lacked massively for burst tonight when it counted.

Aside from Lipinski and Wallis, I wouldn’t be surprised if West wants out, although i rate him and would like to hold onto him but I can’t see us doing anything drastic.

We have a contract infront of Young and he hasn't signed it yet, good chance his off as well.

[Grantysghost]

I dont think anything bad happened.

So just keep keeping on.

[The Underdog]

We have a contract infront of Young and he hasn't signed it yet, good chance his off as well.

Yeah, you’re right. Can’t see him staying. Can’t blame him. Wish he’d been given a better shot down back.

[bulldogtragic]

Clubs needs to announce a review of the GF to learn and explain to us what happened and why.

Schache to defence. Every day with Morris. If games call for him to swing forward so be it. But he’s got in demand skills down back.

Decent fit first ruckman, not negotiable. Another KPP be it forward or back based on Schache.

I’d ask Wood to seriously think about retiring
I’d only consider Martin as a rookie only
I’d trade Lippa, Young, Wallis
Not sure anyone wants Crozier or West but I’m open to listening to offers
If JJ wants to play HBF and get super at another club, I’m open
I’d cut Jong, Martin (R), Cavarra, Hayes and maybe Sweet depending on trade weeks
I’d grab Sam Darcy with glee
On Darcy, I want an aggressive strategy with our Future First on the table too for a player of need
I want new JJ, Jamaine Jones as a Free Agent
I’d consider Raak & MacPherson to bulk up our defence in non KPDs

I want a non bulldog senior assistant. I like Sanderson.

I want more consistent MC and favourites earning games.

I want heaps of sports psychology sessions to get passed tonight in a meaningful way.
I want as much time invested in Gardner & VDM after their disappointment

I’d want an early preseason for VFL players who haven’t played since 3 months ago.
I want to hear about Marra continuing his extra sessions
I wouldn’t rush Josh Bruce back. Even more so Toby.

There is a lot to do to just keep up with the teams chasing us. We need to do even more to go one better.

[boydogs]

English for a competitive ruck

[macca]

Yeah, you’re right. Can’t see him staying. Can’t blame him. Wish he’d been given a better shot down back.

If I was West, Young, Lippa and Wallis shoes, I would be looking elsewhere. Scott, Garcia, VDM and even Butler seems ahead of them. We should try to trade them out whilst they have currency. Gardner would have very high currency at the moment, he goes under rated.

We seriously need a burst type midfielder. Melbourne have Oliver, Petracca and Harmes. Brayshw has some skill and knows how to find the ball. B.Smith is probably 2 years away from having the maturity in his frame. It was sickening to see Oliver break 3 tackles in the centre, and kick away with the ball. We need to learn to make tackles stick.

Sam Powell Pepper ? He would infuriate our fans with his inconsistency, but his a powerful unit. Seems out of favour at Port.

Delist Cavarra, Hayes, good VFL players but they would not take us to deep into December. We need to cut deep and move on anyone who just won't make it.

All players get some good sports pysch, and learn to switch on and be in the moment. Hannan had a poor game today. Cody loses his footy too much and he just needs to learn to keeps his feet. I would put games in Scott. His got good speed, good tackler and keeps his feet. Like wise for McNeil, but I see Scott slightly ahead of him.

Get some serious treatment on VDM hammies, pilates and strengthening work

We cannot have Wood and Cordy in the same side. Their deficiencies leaves too much for the others to fall back on and they both are not that strong overhead like a Lever/May. Put Gardner to be the number 1 defender, and let Keith be the interceptor. Sadly Young can play that role but he may be looking elsewhere, but his got terrible body positioning at times and gets too easily beaten.

I would be going after Nic Nat and see if we can get him for 2 years. English got beaten by Jackson today in the third quater to much dismay. His aggression goes missing.

Schache needs to put on 4-5kg and start learning to use his weight and power. Do 100'sof bench presses, chin ups, whatever to get POWER and STRENGTH in his core. He needs to learn how to outbody and outmuscle smaller opponent. Get a Jarrod Malloy like figure ( Travis cloke would have been handy) who taught the Rocca brothers to throw their weight around


Whoever is Melbourne's midfield coach, they have seriously put together a crazy talented unit who know how to turn up a gear. It was frightening and embarrassing to see our mids get totally smashed tonight in the space of 90 seconds.

[KT31]

How does English fit into our plans moving forward?
Forward, Ruck, part time ruck?
If we are going to lose him in a year or two is it worth us pulling the trigger now and getting quality value?
If we can wrangle a quality back, Improved ruckman and points for Darcy could be worth it.

[Go_Dogs]

Too soon to think through some of this but a couple of thoughts from me:

Our best is well and truly good enough - wholesale changes aren’t required, we need to make incremental changes in a few areas.
Schache should spend the summer working as a KPD. He can be that zone off defender who intercepts and I think we complement him with Keath and Cordy/Gardner. 3 headed monster at both ends.
A genuine ruck would be great - albeit it wasn’t really where we lost that game. English has a big future and should still spend at least 30% of his game time in the ruck.
Marra and Darcy should be given every opportunity to work themselves into the best 22 early doors. Get fit, get strong, add a different look and will make us a more dangerous side.
With 6:6:6 the midfield battle is just so critical so we need to have a way to stem the tide when it goes against us. Not sure if it’s the players we’ve got in there or the structure, or both. But. We need to find a way to grind teams to a halt.
We have plenty of players on the fringes who we need to make decisions on (or they need to decide) - Lipinski, Crozier, Wallis, Young etc. probably favour stability and depth, but if any of these players look elsewhere we need to be targeting role players to fill the void.

Best 22 in 22:
B: Duryea, Keath, Gardner
Hb: Dale, Schache, Williams
C: Daniel, Libba, Hunter
Hf: B Smith, Naughton, Treloar
F: English, Marra, Weightman
R: TBD, Bont, Macrae
IC: Dunkley, R Smith, Richards, Garcia - with another 10+ who are all very stiff. VDM, Hannan, McLean, Bruce, Cordy, Darcy, Scott, McNeil, West, etc etc. Gee it’s a deep list with plenty of scope to improve.

[GVGjr]

How does English fit into our plans moving forward?
Forward, Ruck, part time ruck?
If we are going to lose him in a year or two is it worth us pulling the trigger now and getting quality value?
If we can wrangle a quality back, Improved ruckman and points for Darcy could be worth it.

This is the challenge KT.
Do we find him some support and see if he has another level as a primary ruckman?
Is he good enough as a forward to play there 75% of the time?
Is he going to be one of those perceived versatile players who just doesn't cut it as a primary ruckman or key forward?

[SonofScray]

This is the challenge KT.
Do we find him some support and see if he has another level as a primary ruckman?
Is he good enough as a forward to play there 75% of the time?
Is he going to be one of those perceived versatile players who just doesn't cut it as a primary ruckman or key forward?

He’s a good player and will probably be a very good player somewhere else. Trade him out if the value is there. Feel like we are always trying to retrofit the system around him. If not him. The ruck situation in general.

[azabob]

I floated trading English pre finals and it received a very luke warm response.

I’d still consider it. Surely we can convince Sean Darcy to come back home?

I’d also consider trading Bailey Dale if we could identify genuine player in a position of need such as #1 ruck, key defender or burst midfielder.

[Sedat]

Luke Jackson last night showed the importance of being able to actually compete at stoppages for the nominal 2nd ruck. It was frightening (and very deflating) how easily he destroyed English at the centre bounces in that critical 10 mins before 3/4 time.

[comrade]

Why our mids don’t set up defensively when English is rucking I’ll never know.

[AshMac]

- Would love some external experience come into the club on the coaching panel
- Definitely need a mobile KPD defender - let Keath play the role of a Lever - he is mobile, reads teh play welll, is cool enough under pressure and has good hands
- spend the entire off season working on defensive midfield setup and execution
- agree w the comments on sports psych - learn how to absorb bad weather in sharp bursts and regain momentum
- Lippa, Wally, Young - happy for them to all go elsewhere for better opportunity

As for big names on the block - English the only player i can think of who doesnt have a clear role they are executing well

[Sedat]

Why our mids don’t set up defensively when English is rucking I’ll never know.
Not that I'll ever watch the replay, but any one of our starting mids should have decided to take the responsibility and go hard one-on-one to stop Petracca's influence out of the middle late in the 3rd. Are modern day mids not capable of switching automatically to a defensive mindset when the situation demands?

[SonofScray]

Not that I'll ever watch the replay, but any one of our starting mids should have decided to take the responsibility and go hard one-on-one to stop Petracca's influence out of the middle late in the 3rd. Are modern day mids not capable of switching automatically to a defensive mindset when the situation demands?

Even just hold on and give away a free, that’s better than letting it breeze by you unopposed.

[DOG GOD]

We have to do everything we can to get Nankervis and Darcy Moore.
I don’t care what. Just need to get it done.

[whythelongface]

Not that I'll ever watch the replay, but any one of our starting mids should have decided to take the responsibility and go hard one-on-one to stop Petracca's influence out of the middle late in the 3rd. Are modern day mids not capable of switching automatically to a defensive mindset when the situation demands?

It is very noticeable that this is our Achilles Heel in the middle. We don’t adjust, or don’t adjust fast enough or more than likely can’t adjust. They were able to clear the ruck area and their mids would just stream through. All too easy. We rely on Libba as our clearance king. This works when the ruck contest drops at the feet but when it doesn’t it just gets cleared way too easily. Libba and Macrae are too slow and can’t backtrack fast enough. Not sure why we don’t set up a mid between halfback and the centre circle ie. not a one on one contest. Maybe this doesn’t work as it means we aren’t one on one in the contest. What we really need is a ruck that negates their ruck thus minimising the advantage in centre clearances. We are good at stoppages. Apart from NicNat is there any ruck in the league that could have stopped Gawn/ Jackson last night? As much as Gawn is great he has taken years to adjust whereas Jackson is one of those players whom is a freak from the get go. Unfortunately for us English has taken awhile to develop and while he still may turn into a very good ruck we clearly need help in this area. Martin was ok for awhile this year but age and injury caught up. This is our no. 1 priority. We need the game played on our terms.

[angelopetraglia]

It is very noticeable that this is our Achilles Heel in the middle. We don’t adjust, or don’t adjust fast enough or more than likely can’t adjust. They were able to clear the ruck area and their mids would just stream through. All too easy. We rely on Libba as our clearance king. This works when the ruck contest drops at the feet but when it doesn’t it just gets cleared way too easily. Libba and Macrae are too slow and can’t backtrack fast enough. Not sure why we don’t set up a mid between halfback and the centre circle ie. not a one on one contest. Maybe this doesn’t work as it means we aren’t one on one in the contest. What we really need is a ruck that negates their ruck thus minimising the advantage in centre clearances. We are good at stoppages. Apart from NicNat is there any ruck in the league that could have stopped Gawn/ Jackson last night? As much as Gawn is great he has taken years to adjust whereas Jackson is one of those players whom is a freak from the get go. Unfortunately for us English has taken awhile to develop and while he still may turn into a very good ruck we clearly need help in this area. Martin was ok for awhile this year but age and injury caught up. This is our no. 1 priority. We need the game played on our terms.

Agree. It happened against the Bombers. The Lions also had a purple patch in the final when they did the same to us. I do think that we have a weakness in the ruck, but that is not the only problem. Our key mids outside of Baz (and I think he can get better, just look at Petracca's development) are too one paced. Macrae, Libba, Bont, Dunks - none of them are explosive runners. The teams that torch us out of the middle had players with genuine speed and acceleration. Stringer, Zorko, Petracca. We don't appear to be able to negate this type of player when they get a run on.

[Mofra]

I’d still consider it. Surely we can convince Sam Darcy to come back home?
Do you mean Sean Darcy?
He signed a contract extension in June and would just about be their most untouchable player.

[Mofra]

We need an intercepting defender or a FB to relase Keath to play the role.
We were forced to change our entire F50 set up because of May and Lever, they're too good at intercepting. Melbourne didn;t have to change a thing.

We really need the intercepting type to change the opposition gameplan.

Ruck is obvious.

[bornadog]

Our number one issue is the first ruck role. Steph is ok, but he is cooked as far as I am concerned. Don't give me a 30 plus hasbeen ruck, we need to find someone and find them quick.

[azabob]

Do you mean Sean Darcy?
He signed a contract extension in June and would just about be their most untouchable player.

Yeah, that’s who I meant. And yeah, I know he is untouchable.

Clutching at straws here.

[bornadog]

Yeah, that’s who I meant. And yeah, I know he is untouchable.

Clutching at straws here.

No not clutching at straws at all. WE need to make a big offer to a very good ruckman and prise them out of another clubs hands.

[DOG GOD]

We need to get serious with the ruck and KPD posts.
English will NEVER be the #1 so we need to find the best we can, who can.

An A-Grade defender is required.

I want a ruckman and FB who will play 22 games next year.

No bits players.

[azabob]

We need an intercepting defender or a FB to relase Keath to play the role.
We were forced to change our entire F50 set up because of May and Lever, they're too good at intercepting. Melbourne didn;t have to change a thing.

We really need the intercepting type to change the opposition gameplan.

Ruck is obvious.

Other than Clurey who is contracted and too expensive anyone else out there?

I’m actually concerned with Keath age and his hamstring issues.

[soupman]

Other than Clurey who is contracted and too expensive anyone else out there?


I like Clurey but is he a bit of a Cordy? Slightly undersized defender who relies on his competitiveness over having an elite trait? He isn't quite big enough, is a pretty mediocre ball user, is decent in the air but not intercept mark decent, and doesn't really have an ability to play anywhere else.

I think he might be a marginal upgrade but don't think he really fixes the problem, just adds another name to the Cordy/Gardner mix.

If we were going to look at fringe Port defenders i think Lienert is a similarly ranked alternative. Slightly taller than Clurey (but probably more of a flanker type), has a little more pace though and is a tidy user. Again I think he ends up being a bit similiar to another defensive option we have in Schache, but could b someone we look to put into the Wood role.

[MrMahatma]

We have to do everything we can to get Nankervis and Darcy Moore.
I don’t care what. Just need to get it done.

Yeah, we’re a good ruckman away from being in the top 4 for the next 5 years. It’s now at the point of needing to make a ballsy play for one. Imagine we had Grundy?

[DOG GOD]

Yeah, we’re a good ruckman away from being in the top 4 for the next 5 years. It’s now at the point of needing to make a ballsy play for one. Imagine we had Grundy?

And that is exactly the type of commitment to this I’m hoping for. I don’t want ceglar, Lynch, or whoever else isn’t going to take us to the next level.

If we are serious about this, and I hope to god we are, we need to make a play and FAST.

[1eyedog]

I'd like a heavily defensive minded midfield coach to replace King please. I'd even go Rossy Lyon. Who cares if he's a knob he's got the runs on the board when it comes to trying to kick goals against the teams he's coached.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm starting to think we cannot play Dunkley, Libba, Macrae and Bont all in the midfield. Too slow and when the opposition get momentum out of the middle, these guys just can't stop it because they're one paced.

For mine, starting mid next year should feature a lot more of Treloar AND Smith than it did this year.

Can Macrae transition to a wing?

Ironically trading Dunkley for a quicker mid would be preferable.

[DOG GOD]

I'm starting to think we cannot play Dunkley, Libba, Macrae and Bont all in the midfield. Too slow and when the opposition get momentum out of the middle, these guys just can't stop it because they're one paced.

For mine, starting mid next year should feature a lot more of Treloar AND Smith than it did this year.

Can Macrae transition to a wing?

Ironically trading Dunkley for a quicker mid would be preferable.

I’d seriously consider macrae on a wing and Bont half fwd to allow more mid time for Treloar/smith.

[angelopetraglia]

I'm starting to think we cannot play Dunkley, Libba, Macrae and Bont all in the midfield. Too slow and when the opposition get momentum out of the middle, these guys just can't stop it because they're one paced.

For mine, starting mid next year should feature a lot more of Treloar AND Smith than it did this year.

Can Macrae transition to a wing?

Ironically trading Dunkley for a quicker mid would be preferable.

Agree, but I think it is only an issue with teams with explosive athletic midfielders. There are not too many of those around. That is why for the majority of the season we get away with it. We struggle to contain those explosive players when they are on like Stringer, Petracca, Zorko, Dusty - but so do most teams.

It ain't an easy problem to fix as you need rare athletic specimens who have both footy smarts and desire to hunt the ball. How many of those players are there in the league? Or even in history?

Those players are truly special. Think Kouta, Cooney, Danger, Voss at their absolute peak of their powers. Their absolute best was almost unstoppable. Who is in that category now?

[Go_Dogs]

It’s more power to keep willing the ball forward and getting it out while under pressure. Pace sure - but we got our bodies / contested by the Melbourne midfielders which allowed their downhill game to work. Hack kicks, fumbled out (throws) that get the ball moving their way.

We just need to get better at showing different looks in the midfield again - more rotations and leveraging how deep we bat. Along with being stronger in the contest - both ways.

[Mantis]

I'm starting to think we cannot play Dunkley, Libba, Macrae and Bont all in the midfield. Too slow and when the opposition get momentum out of the middle, these guys just can't stop it because they're one paced.

For mine, starting mid next year should feature a lot more of Treloar AND Smith than it did this year.

Can Macrae transition to a wing?

Ironically trading Dunkley for a quicker mid would be preferable.

It all sounds good & well, but both Treloar & Smith aren't exactly known for their ability to defend. They run well with the ball in hand, but get lost when defending.

Agree with the call on Macrae... much like Brayshaw's move to the wing we need to get Jacko outside the contest more to give us outside support & structure.

[Mofra]

I like Clurey but is he a bit of a Cordy? Slightly undersized defender who relies on his competitiveness over having an elite trait? He isn't quite big enough, is a pretty mediocre ball user, is decent in the air but not intercept mark decent, and doesn't really have an ability to play anywhere else.

I think he might be a marginal upgrade but don't think he really fixes the problem, just adds another name to the Cordy/Gardner mix.

If we were going to look at fringe Port defenders i think Lienert is a similarly ranked alternative. Slightly taller than Clurey (but probably more of a flanker type), has a little more pace though and is a tidy user. Again I think he ends up being a bit similiar to another defensive option we have in Schache, but could b someone we look to put into the Wood role.
Lienert can play more of the 'third' role than Cordy or Clurey. If Gardner plays more of a stopper role we can play Lienert too. He's probably more suited to us than Clurey

[azabob]

Lienert can play more of the 'third' role than Cordy or Clurey. If Gardner plays more of a stopper role we can play Lienert too. He's probably more suited to us than Clurey

Lienert would also be a lot cheaper, but isn’t he 27-28?

[jeemak]

I'm starting to think we cannot play Dunkley, Libba, Macrae and Bont all in the midfield. Too slow and when the opposition get momentum out of the middle, these guys just can't stop it because they're one paced.

For mine, starting mid next year should feature a lot more of Treloar AND Smith than it did this year.

Can Macrae transition to a wing?

Ironically trading Dunkley for a quicker mid would be preferable.

Someone should start a thread about that.........add someone who can kick properly to the list as well.

[Webby]

What would we have to give up for Naitanui and is it even possible?

I ask because, I feel that if we had NN in our side, we’d have been a chance last night. Being dominated in the ruck is too big of a Achilles heel with the 6, 6, 6 rule in place. Because that’s where they got hold of us and swung the game. We fought hard for the secondary stoppage, but the dam wall eventually burst.

I can’t help thinking that big Nick would potentially turn us into the yardstick of the competition.

Would an English trade and a pick get him? JU-H?
Would we be prepared to do it?

[soupman]

What would we have to give up for Naitanui and is it even possible?

I ask because, I feel that if we had NN in our side, we’d have been a chance last night. Being dominated in the ruck is too big of a Achilles heel with the 6, 6, 6 rule in place. Because that’s where they got hold of us and swung the game. We fought hard for the secondary stoppage, but the dam wall eventually burst.

I can’t help thinking that big Nick would potentially turn us into the yardstick of the competition.

Would an English trade and a pick get him? JU-H?
Would we be prepared to do it?

We aren't trading JUH for anything. I don't mean that literally but it's pretty close, and a 31 year old ruckman with a suspect body and who can manage less gametime than Stefan Martin is not it.

I like the thinking but.

[G-Mo77]

What about someone like JJ? I don't like moving on good clubman, he seems to be a well liked player amongst the group but his role is diminishing. He gained a bit more stock later in the season and could be of some value on the table. Contract is pretty weighty as well.

Just throwing it out there.

[GVGjr]

What about someone like JJ? I don't like moving on good clubman, he seems to be a well liked player amongst the group but his role is diminishing. He gained a bit more stock later in the season and could be of some value on the table. Contract is pretty weighty as well.

Just throwing it out there.

He might look for a more permanent position in the back line at another club.
I doubt we would get much for him but even though I like him he might be having a rethink if he should stick with us.

[Happy Days]

We don’t need to move anyone if we get a ruckman who can move sideways.

[jeemak]

I've been a massive supporter of his, and think he's been unfairly maligned due to a change in role resulting in different types of performances whilst effective not being as noticeable as previous ones, however, the hard call I'd be making would be tapping Easton on the shoulder for an earlier than expected retirement.

We need a more defencive and pacier edge through the midfield, and this is where I think the challenge needs to be thrown at Rhylee West to get as fit and strong as he possibly can be to help with the former (keeping in mind that while he isn't the fastest in a straight line he placed third in the smart speed agility test at the draft combine and that helps with not being lost in traffic). This might mean we get Macrae onto a wing more often if West is going to play that role. Garcia can help with the pace and class, and I look forward to seeing how far he can go with a full preseason under his belt.

I'd also be looking elsewhere for a midfielder who is quick and defencively minded, at the expense of JJ and Crozier who should be traded out. We just don't get back quickly enough, and it was shown up in the second half of the game where Melbourne were on top of the ground probably due to being fresher than us, but also because they bust a gut to go both ways. The pace at which their mids run back versus the pace that ours do is noticeable.

There's no hard calls to be made regarding tall defenders and rucks. We're clearly deficient in these areas and one must assume they're front of mind for Sam Power and the MC etc.. I don't think Sweet is retained if we land someone, rather, Martin goes to the rookie list, we persevere with Tim and see what we can find in the state leagues as further back up for 2023 assuming competition gets rolling again in 2022.

I feel Treloar and Dunkley both get better with an uninterrupted preseason and this helps both of them with their two way running. The latter's kicking really really concerns me. It's just not good enough and crumbles under pressure. I know he won't be traded, but someone getting the ball as often as he does is a bit of a liability under pressure in big games, and I just don't know what we do about it or if he can get better.

In our heart of hearts do we really think Khamis is going to make further strides and reach the fitness levels required after another preseason? He might, but I wonder if the resources in development might be better placed elsewhere.

I don't think we hang onto Young, Wallis or Lapinski and that's probably OK. But I do think Young could be a genuine interceptor and with Wood being retired we may now have the chance to configure our defence and train for that accordingly over the preseason but I'm resigned to that being unlikely.

But I think the hardest call needs to be made with how our on field leadership functions, and who helps Bont lead at the coal face. Bont seems to me to be a lead by example/ deeds type of captain and that's great, but there needs to be someone in the group who is respected and able to get into the ears of the likes of him, Jacko and Libba to help them think situations through more clearly and respond to what's happening on the ground in the heat of the moment........or after the same thing happening a few times, or being likely to happen as was the case last night and numerous times in the season.

[Vred]

What would we have to give up for Naitanui and is it even possible?

I ask because, I feel that if we had NN in our side, we’d have been a chance last night. Being dominated in the ruck is too big of a Achilles heel with the 6, 6, 6 rule in place. Because that’s where they got hold of us and swung the game. We fought hard for the secondary stoppage, but the dam wall eventually burst.

I can’t help thinking that big Nick would potentially turn us into the yardstick of the competition.

Would an English trade and a pick get him? JU-H?
Would we be prepared to do it?

If the media and rumors behind the scenes are to be bought into, hearing that the club is potentially shopping English around to the WA teams, for what? I don't know. Why? Supposedly wants to head back to WA to be with his missus.

Adam Cooney on his show is adamant English won't be on our list next year, but again, grain of salt.

Hypothetically, if we could turn English into an actual competent ruck, I'd take it. Is NicNat the answer tho? Doubt it.

[soupman]

Really good post Jeemak.

Wood just signed a deal for next year, and I will thus settle for his spot not being guaranteed. In his defence I thought he played a solid finals series excluding last night, and that was hardly just a him problem. I do want us to try to turn his spot into something else that isn't either he nor Crozier (who are both shadows of what they used to be in the air, not as good one on one as they need to be and liabilities by foot).

I quite like the idea of Schache there, he would brings good footskills and composure to the spot. Duryea becomes our only medium lockdown guy, and the Cordy/Gardner/any okish tall defender spot remains. Alternatively I'd look to get someone who can play as that main lockdown tall to take that spot and free Keath up a bit, but don't think thats really Bevos go.

[soupman]

As for the idea of getting a leader in, there are a few options.

Nick Vlastuin could be an option. Takes the Wood role and is an immediate upgrade (although shorter than what I mentioned). Tough and successful, i think he is a leader type and is only 27. Don't think he's gettable but could be an interesting one to ask the question.

Another different type could be Jeremy Howe, in a real effort to reincarnate peak Wood/Crozier. Is 31 and it a bit injury prone so not sure on him (don't watch much Collingwood) but would probably be cheap and we could "help" them with their salary cap. Less of a leader type though.

The other one I like (but would require us to find another spot in our midfield rotations) is Liam Shiels. Is only 30, has been kind of the unsung member of the Hawks dynasty, is a really good support mid who does the defensive stuff so the others don't have to. Could be an interesting option to give our midfield a bit more of a two way ability. Probably the best fit in terms of addressing our midfields weakness.

[jeemak]

Really good post Jeemak.

Wood just signed a deal for next year, and I will thus settle for his spot not being guaranteed. In his defence I thought he played a solid finals series excluding last night, and that was hardly just a him problem. I do want us to try to turn his spot into something else that isn't either he nor Crozier (who are both shadows of what they used to be in the air, not as good one on one as they need to be and liabilities by foot).

I quite like the idea of Schache there, he would brings good footskills and composure to the spot. Duryea becomes our only medium lockdown guy, and the Cordy/Gardner/any okish tall defender spot remains. Alternatively I'd look to get someone who can play as that main lockdown tall to take that spot and free Keath up a bit, but don't think thats really Bevos go.

Thanks soup.

While he should be tapped on the shoulder it's unlikely to happen so at a minimum the course of action you mention is something I'd be comfortable with, as long as we stick true to it. And again, I agree that his finals spot was justified but he did seem shaky a lot of the time and on edge irrespective of the solid performances. He had an injury interrupted year, so it will be interesting to see if he can stop the slide with a really good preseason or whether it's how it is from here on.

See I considered Schache because he has great foot skills and they're something that Young doesn't have. If you recall from earlier posts when debating his exclusion I've pointed to Young's disposal efficiency and the possibility that while he does play long minutes and cover substantial ground when in defence he might not do it to the level others can. Schache can be superior in these areas but the one thing Lewie does have is an innate ability to actually read the ball in flight and intercept. So I guess it comes down to what's more important for the role, and whether Schache can learn how to intercept at Lewie's level. If he can, which I'm kinda doubtful of - but willing to be surprised, he could be the right option.

[soupman]

If the media and rumors behind the scenes are to be bought into, hearing that the club is potentially shopping English around to the WA teams, for what? I don't know. Why? Supposedly wants to head back to WA to be with his missus.

Adam Cooney on his show is adamant English won't be on our list next year, but again, grain of salt.

Hypothetically, if we could turn English into an actual competent ruck, I'd take it. Is NicNat the answer tho? Doubt it.

I know he signed a contract already but would Lloyd Meek be worth talking to? If English goes surely you could get a top 10 pick + Meek back. Freo have pick 8 (and probably 6 for Cerra) so it's feasible.

That would fill the first ruck spot (this is assuming Meek is actually good).

Then if you still wanted a second ruck to replace English's spot in the side you could enquire about Ladhams who I don't think would cost much. He may be a bit of a douche but he's a decent mobile option and I'm getting the sense that there aren't a bunch of clubs fighting over him.

[soupman]

Thanks soup.

While he should be tapped on the shoulder it's unlikely to happen so at a minimum the course of action you mention is something I'd be comfortable with, as long as we stick true to it. And again, I agree that his finals spot was justified but he did seem shaky a lot of the time and on edge irrespective of the solid performances. He had an injury interrupted year, so it will be interesting to see if he can stop the slide with a really good preseason or whether it's how it is from here on.

See I considered Schache because he has great foot skills and they're something that Young doesn't have. If you recall from earlier posts when debating his exclusion I've pointed to Young's disposal efficiency and the possibility that while he does play long minutes and cover substantial ground when in defence he might not do it to the level others can. Schache can be superior in these areas but the one thing Lewie does have is an innate ability to actually read the ball in flight and intercept. So I guess it comes down to what's more important for the role, and whether Schache can learn how to intercept at Lewie's level. If he can, which I'm kinda doubtful of - but willing to be surprised, he could be the right option.

I liked the idea of Young in that role but have conceded that two seasons of the mc being utterly disinterested in playing him unless it's as our least-worst-non-ruck-ruck means that it isn't going to happen.

If Young was going to be picked I'd think he'd be fighting for the Cordy/Gardner spot. I don't think we would choose to play with three low output key defenders (Keath is ok but doesn't give a lot of drive). Schache I can see atleast becoming a bit of a hybrid one, maybe like a poor mans Lukosius? His ability with the ball is a real point of difference to the other tall backs.

[jeemak]

As for the idea of getting a leader in, there are a few options.

Nick Vlastuin could be an option. Takes the Wood role and is an immediate upgrade (although shorter than what I mentioned). Tough and successful, i think he is a leader type and is only 27. Don't think he's gettable but could be an interesting one to ask the question.

Another different type could be Jeremy Howe, in a real effort to reincarnate peak Wood/Crozier. Is 31 and it a bit injury prone so not sure on him (don't watch much Collingwood) but would probably be cheap and we could "help" them with their salary cap. Less of a leader type though.

The other one I like (but would require us to find another spot in our midfield rotations) is Liam Shiels. Is only 30, has been kind of the unsung member of the Hawks dynasty, is a really good support mid who does the defensive stuff so the others don't have to. Could be an interesting option to give our midfield a bit more of a two way ability. Probably the best fit in terms of addressing our midfields weakness.

Great suggestion but as you say, if the Tigers think they're going to have another crack at it he might be off limits. He'd definitely be able to bring some valuable leadership experience and knowledge of what it takes to play as a team consistently to the table. Also, I like the idea of a defender being that guy because he can see it from the point of view of the players really getting hammered by the results of the inaction we speak of. Plus defenders push so high up now they're constantly interacting with midfielders in general play, so communication shouldn't be an issue.

As for the other suggestions I kind of like the idea of peak Jeremy Howe, but not sure how the playing group would adjust to having Easton removed from regular footy to be replaced by someone pretty much the same age and injury prone.

How quick is Shiels these days?

[Danjul]

I liked the idea of Young in that role but have conceded that two seasons of the mc being utterly disinterested in playing him unless it's as our least-worst-non-ruck-ruck means that it isn't going to happen.

If Young was going to be picked I'd think he'd be fighting for the Cordy/Gardner spot. I don't think we would choose to play with three low output key defenders (Keath is ok but doesn't give a lot of drive). Schache I can see atleast becoming a bit of a hybrid one, maybe like a poor mans Lukosius? His ability with the ball is a real point of difference to the other tall backs.

For me the player who impressed most in the finals was Young.

He is not a ruckman but, because we had no one else, he was thrown into that role. And we all saw him get smashed. What nobody has mentioned is despite Essendon and Brisbane winning the hitouts they couldnÂ’t control the centre. Our midfielders won the centre clearances ( 14:7 and 13:10) in games we were worried about. Compare that to the GF. Our centres lost the clearances 11:19

I hope Young has impressed someone at another club who will give him some real opportunities.

[1eyedog]

As for the idea of getting a leader in, there are a few options.

Nick Vlastuin could be an option. Takes the Wood role and is an immediate upgrade (although shorter than what I mentioned). Tough and successful, i think he is a leader type and is only 27. Don't think he's gettable but could be an interesting one to ask the question.

Another different type could be Jeremy Howe, in a real effort to reincarnate peak Wood/Crozier. Is 31 and it a bit injury prone so not sure on him (don't watch much Collingwood) but would probably be cheap and we could "help" them with their salary cap. Less of a leader type though.

The other one I like (but would require us to find another spot in our midfield rotations) is Liam Shiels. Is only 30, has been kind of the unsung member of the Hawks dynasty, is a really good support mid who does the defensive stuff so the others don't have to. Could be an interesting option to give our midfield a bit more of a two way ability. Probably the best fit in terms of addressing our midfields weakness.

That's an interesting out of the box suggestion that I don't hate. I wonder if we are looking at all options whether Vandermeer can be this player? He's quick enough to run with, close space effectively and creates a lot of uncertainty in the forward line. He has bought into being a highly defensive forward and I think he's good at it.

Can he be moulded into a highly-defensive mid and play there flexibly when we start to struggle with centre clearances?

[bornadog]

For me the player who impressed most in the finals was Young.

He is not a ruckman but, because we had no one else, he was thrown into that role. And we all saw him get smashed. What nobody has mentioned is despite Essendon and Brisbane winning the hitouts they couldnÂ’t control the centre. Our midfielders won the centre clearances ( 14:7 and 13:10) in games we were worried about. Compare that to the GF. Our centres lost the clearances 11:19

I hope Young has impressed someone at another club who will give him some real opportunities.

How about Young taking over from Wood/Cordy and become the intercept player we are missing?

We can't play Wood and Cordy in the backline anymore.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

How about Young taking over from Wood/Cordy and become the intercept player we are missing?

We can't play Wood and Cordy in the backline anymore.

I don’t know why Young hasn’t replaced Cordy or Wood for this reason. Bevo obviously doesn’t trust him for one reason or another. But the kid can take a mark and reads the ball well. It’s another one of those unsolved mysteries.

[whythelongface]

I don’t know why Young hasn’t replaced Cordy or Wood for this reason. Bevo obviously doesn’t trust him for one reason or another. But the kid can take a mark and reads the ball well. It’s another one of those unsolved mysteries.

Good points. Maybe he is a work in progress. He is still very young for a Key position player. Hopefully he is fast tracked and further developed in the off-season.

[azabob]

I don’t know why Young hasn’t replaced Cordy or Wood for this reason. Bevo obviously doesn’t trust him for one reason or another. But the kid can take a mark and reads the ball well. It’s another one of those unsolved mysteries.

I wonder if Cordy would be best 22 if Gardner had played a full season?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I wonder if Cordy would be best 22 if Gardner had played a full season?

I don’t think so. I mean it was Gardner who started the season and Cordy in the VFL if I recall correctly. It’s why I was surprised Cordy was picked ahead of Gardner for the GF. I reckon we’ll see Gardner replace him again next year assuming he stays healthy. If we can’t land a KPD in a trade, we’ve surely got to put a lot of time into Schache and Young down back.

[Jam Donuts]

Not that I'll ever watch the replay, but any one of our starting mids should have decided to take the responsibility and go hard one-on-one to stop Petracca's influence out of the middle late in the 3rd. Are modern day mids not capable of switching automatically to a defensive mindset when the situation demands?

Thats a bit hard seeing that 2 of our best mids were on the pine straight away after we were 19 points in front and then only appeared after Melbourne were in front again, Bont should never, ever leave the ground, have a rest in the forward pocket, and whoever made the decision that we had the game won and we could rest them on the bench, should be sacked asap.

[Sedat]

Thats a bit hard seeing that 2 of our best mids were on the pine straight away after we were 19 points in front and then only appeared after Melbourne were in front again, Bont should never, ever leave the ground, have a rest in the forward pocket, and whoever made the decision that we had the game won and we could rest them on the bench, should be sacked asap.
Bont rotation was quite possibly the worst timed rotation in interchange history. In light of Bont not being on the ground, I would have expected Dunks or Macrae or Libba to be proactive and have the game sense to go defensive side of Petracca after at worst the 2nd goal of their run (when we were still a goal in front). It was a fatal error of judgement by our senior mids at the time.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Bont rotation was quite possibly the worst timed rotation in interchange history. In light of Bont not being on the ground, I would have expected Dunks or Macrae or Libba to be proactive and have the game sense to go defensive side of Petracca after at worst the 2nd goal of their run (when we were still a goal in front). It was a fatal error of judgement by our mids at the time.

It's torture thinking about it.

We had a hand on the cup and Bont had a hand on the Norm Smith medal.

I guess the question is, what do we do moving forward? This midfield capitulation has happened FAR too often to throw out the
"we'll learn from this and train for it" line.

Without studying it more intently, who are the biggest culprits or who can we move into another area of the ground? I said it on another thread but can Macrae transition to the wing? Libba/Dunkley are limited both in speed of foot / where they can play.

I'm at a loss as to how we can actually rectify the problem.

[jeemak]

It's torture thinking about it.

We had a hand on the cup and Bont had a hand on the Norm Smith medal.

I guess the question is, what do we do moving forward? This midfield capitulation has happened FAR too often to throw out the
"we'll learn from this and train for it" line.

Without studying it more intently, who are the biggest culprits or who can we move into another area of the ground? I said it on another thread but can Macrae transition to the wing? Libba/Dunkley are limited both in speed of foot / where they can play.

I'm at a loss as to how we can actually rectify the problem.

Mindset and positioning is where to start.

You don't have to be quick to not be aggressive/ overly offencive in how you set up.

[Sedat]

Mindset and positioning is where to start.

You don't have to be quick to not be aggressive/ overly offencive in how you set up.
Viney waltzed through for one of the goals and he is slower than a Clydesdale. Any of the players mentioned could have done it if they had the mindset and the game sense at the time. It's brutally harsh but the differences on GF day are magnified 10-fold. Our senior players in our biggest area of strength let us down on the biggest stage and at the worst possible time.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's torture thinking about it.

We had a hand on the cup and Bont had a hand on the Norm Smith medal.

I guess the question is, what do we do moving forward? This midfield capitulation has happened FAR too often to throw out the
"we'll learn from this and train for it" line.

Without studying it more intently, who are the biggest culprits or who can we move into another area of the ground? I said it on another thread but can Macrae transition to the wing? Libba/Dunkley are limited both in speed of foot / where they can play.

I'm at a loss as to how we can actually rectify the problem.

This is my biggest worry. This is beyond a learning situation. If this hasn’t been learnt yet, it never will. Honestly it’s pretty fundamental stuff. So if we haven’t figured it out, then it’s time for either personnel or positional changes for some people. Identifying root cause would be a first step. Is it dumb players who just don’t get it? Laziness? Or poor situational awareness to know when to adjust? Or are there egos at play here?

[Danjul]

I don’t think so. I mean it was Gardner who started the season and Cordy in the VFL if I recall correctly. It’s why I was surprised Cordy was picked ahead of Gardner for the GF. I reckon we’ll see Gardner replace him again next year assuming he stays healthy. If we can’t land a KPD in a trade, we’ve surely got to put a lot of time into Schache and Young down back.

Are they staying? I got the impression that their papers were stamped a long time ago.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Are they staying? I got the impression that their papers were stamped a long time ago.

Isn’t Schache still under contract?

We’ve offered Young another deal but he’s understandably assessing his options.

[1eyedog]

Are they staying? I got the impression that their papers were stamped a long time ago.

Young has a deal in front of him Schache is contracted for another year we won't be moving either of them on unless they want to go.

[Danjul]

Isn’t Schache still under contract?

We’ve offered Young another deal but he’s understandably assessing his options.

Can someone add a clause to Young’s offer that he will get more than 6 games next year. It’s time to chase him.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Mindset and positioning is where to start.

You don't have to be quick to not be aggressive/ overly offencive in how you set up.

I agree and it should be an easy fix but for whatever reason, it hasn't been.

It happens from time to time for most sides, but the regularity and the way it's happened with our group has been truly astonishing.

I just have no faith or trust that anything will change next year if we leave it as is. The club / coach / players spoke repeatedly about us training for it throughout finals, yet it happens in a third quarter of a GF when we're in a near unbeatable position.

By my count it happened;
v Richmond
v Carlton (but we arrested it)
v Melbourne (twice)
v Essendon
v Hawthorn
v Port Adelaide

That is utterly ridiculous for a contending side with, on paper, arguably the best mid group in the comp. And unforgivable.

[GVGjr]

How about Young taking over from Wood/Cordy and become the intercept player we are missing?

We can't play Wood and Cordy in the backline anymore.

Is that both of them? or do you mean we can only play one of them in the 22?

[GVGjr]

For me the player who impressed most in the finals was Young.

He is not a ruckman but, because we had no one else, he was thrown into that role. And we all saw him get smashed. What nobody has mentioned is despite Essendon and Brisbane winning the hitouts they couldnÂ’t control the centre. Our midfielders won the centre clearances ( 14:7 and 13:10) in games we were worried about. Compare that to the GF. Our centres lost the clearances 11:19

I hope Young has impressed someone at another club who will give him some real opportunities.

Danjul, what is your thoughts of Schache as a defender?

[Mantis]

Is that both of them? or do you mean we can only play one of them in the 22?

I don't think we can play either them if we still want to play Williams, Dale, Daniel & Duryea in that zone. We need more height & intercepting capabilities.

If we don't add any ready-made defenders to our squad I would be training all pre-season to have Keath, Gardner & Schache as our key defenders with the players added above & Richards as our medium sized/ smalls.

I can't see the improvement in Cordy & Wood to make us a better team which is what we need to drive towards.

[Ghost Dog]

Not sure we would get much for Josh. Worth keeping as a depth player I guess.
Cordy, his time may have come.

[GVGjr]

I don't think we can play either them if we still want to play Williams, Dale, Daniel & Duryea in that zone. We need more height & intercepting capabilities.

If we don't add any ready-made defenders to our squad I would be training all pre-season to have Keath, Gardner & Schache as our key defenders with the players added above & Richards as our medium sized/ smalls.

I can't see the improvement in Cordy & Wood to make us a better team which is what we need to drive towards.

I tend to agree but I was interested in BAD's view.
A number of us have failed to see the benefits that Wood brings us for a couple of years now which made his 2 year offer confusing.
I don't think he can be trusted to play on talls or smaller players either.
We also know that Cordy is more of a battler and perhaps a depth player for us.

In an ideal set-up we play 3 talls like Keath, Gardner and Young or Schache) with three good users of the footy out of Dale, Daniel, Duryea, Williams and maybe Richards. Gardner is mobile enough to be matched against more mid sized opponents if needed.

[bornadog]

Is that both of them? or do you mean we can only play one of them in the 22?


I tend to agree but I wasn't interested in BAD's view.

Well why did you ask me then?

Sorry that should have read was interested. I will fix

[Bulldog Revolution]

Well why did you ask me then?

Im sure he meant he was interested BAD, surely...

[Danjul]

Danjul, what is your thoughts of Schache as a defender?
Against Port Adelaide Schache nullified Aliir and helped bring Naughton into the game. He also had 4 shots at goal ( one hit the post and one was touched on the line). In the GF I thought he held Lever but the delivery into the forward 50 was very poor so neither he nor Naughton could have any positive influence. Despite that I see Naughton and Schache working together as important forwards until Bruce returns.

His marking has definitely improved and he is reading the flight of the ball better, not relying on leads. I think he could become a significant defender when Bruce is ready to return.

Until then I would use Young as a key defender. Another preseason on top of his last few games wrestling with quality ruckmen should make him an versatile asset. Even though beaten in the ruck the opponent wasnÂ’t able to dominate and position the ball, so our midfielders were able to win the ball ( more often than not).

That makes him my preferred second ruck allowing English to focus his development on becoming a pure forward. Franklin, Hipwood, Daniher, Dixon, Brown etc are all taller than Martin but are either rarely or never put in the ruck to be beaten up.

[Hotdog60]

I can see JUH putting in a big pre season and be ready to go in round one. If the opposition defenders concentrate on Astro and Scheche JUH can get run riot.

[MrMahatma]

I can see JUH putting in a big pre season and be ready to go in round one. If the opposition defenders concentrate on Astro and Scheche JUH can get run riot.

I think that’s the kind of upside our squad has, and it’s really significant.


But we bloody need a ruck.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Is there a youngster out of contract that we can shake out?

Isaac cumming?

Or are we hamstrung by having no first round pick due to Darcy

[Twodogs]

What about Duryea as the vice captain/onfield type "voice" leader? I agree that Bont is more of a lead by example type leader and we need someone onfield who can organise and act as a strategist.

I also considered Keath but he doesn't seem to be a big talker out on the ground. We need someone who can say "OK boys this is what we are going to do" when things aren't going our way.

[GVGjr]

Is there a youngster out of contract that we can shake out?

Isaac cumming?

Or are we hamstrung by having no first round pick due to Darcy

One or two low key trades and maybe a FA signing is more likely because we just don't have the currency of picks to exchange.

[azabob]

What about Duryea as the vice captain/onfield type "voice" leader? I agree that Bont is more of a lead by example type leader and we need someone onfield who can organise and act as a strategist.

I also considered Keath but he doesn't seem to be a big talker out on the ground. We need someone who can say "OK boys this is what we are going to do" when things aren't going our way.

I like this idea. Ideally Dunkley would also step up to assist in the midfield.

[Mofra]

What about Duryea as the vice captain/onfield type "voice" leader? I agree that Bont is more of a lead by example type leader and we need someone onfield who can organise and act as a strategist.
Official or not, Hunter is our VC and our most vocal on the field in terms of positioning. He sees the game better than any other player on our list. Bont has even labelled him and on-field coach.

[Mantis]

Official or not, Hunter is our VC and our most vocal on the field in terms of positioning. He sees the game better than any other player on our list. Bont has even labelled him and on-field coach.

I hear this a lot, but why does nothing change?

How hard would it have been for the wings (to which Hunter is one) to take up a sweeper position at the end of the 3rd qtr to ensure Melbourne weren’t busting out the front of the stoppage?

[Mofra]

I hear this a lot, but why does nothing change?

How hard would it have been for the wings (to which Hunter is one) to take up a sweeper position at the end of the 3rd qtr to ensure Melbourne weren’t busting out the front of the stoppage?
The centre square prevents it?
The late patch was completely on our CBA mids to defend that space.

[azabob]

The centre square prevents it?
The late patch was completely on our CBA mids to defend that space.

Surely Hunter can still get in one of their ears say hey, this is what is happening.

Why didn't the runner come out and say hey, this is what is happening.

[Mantis]

The centre square prevents it?
The late patch was completely on our CBA mids to defend that space.

But instead of starting directly on the wing come into the centre from a position closer to our defence.. it might not change much, but it might mean the opposition have to move laterally rather than directly through that zone…. But I guess when it’s a wave of players it makes it tough to defend.

We should’ve had 1-2 mids holding a more defensive position with in the centre square which would’ve alleviated the issue.

[Sedat]

But instead of starting directly on the wing come into the centre from a position closer to our defence.. it might not change much, but it might mean the opposition have to move laterally rather than directly through that zone…. But I guess when it’s a wave of players it makes it tough to defend.

We should’ve had 1-2 mids holding a more defensive position with in the centre square which would’ve alleviated the issue.
Even manufacturing a deliberate 6-6-6 infringement warning would have been good game sense, just to delay Melbourne's momentum for 20 seconds of non-game time. Their adrenalin was through the roof.

Or a deliberate ruck infringement at the centre bounce. Jackson kicking behind the mark would have been infinitely more preferable to Petracca streaming through the centre square unabated.

[mjp]

But instead of starting directly on the wing come into the centre from a position closer to our defence.. it might not change much, but it might mean the opposition have to move laterally rather than directly through that zone…. But I guess when it’s a wave of players it makes it tough to defend.

We should’ve had 1-2 mids holding a more defensive position with in the centre square which would’ve alleviated the issue.

I think the second point (the mids needed to handle it) is the solution. With a team such as Melbourne who have two 'wide' wingers (Brayshaw and Langdon both hold their position) having a winger push in (hard) to take up a defensive position is really going out of the frypan into the fire...the ball will just be flipped wide and away they go.

A change in strategy from Hunter or another winger might have provided a bit of a circuit breaker but isn't something I would have wanted to do against this particular team.

The reality is that our inside mids simply had to put their egos aside and focus not on winning the footy but instead on making the Dee's mids kick the ball OVER them from behind the centre circle...even a 'twin sweeper' type model would have helped. For reasons I still don't understand I went back to re-watch the 3rd q and I am still confused how our 'solution' to the onslaught was 'just win the ball'. I mean, I get it - players always want to back themselves and good players (and our best players were 100% in there) really, really, really want to back themselves but still....

I've said hundreds of times that having a game style 'a' and a game-style 'b' is neat in theory but really not something that is easy to do in practice...but we are talking about a structural change here...again, Melbourne did the same thing to Geelong (but with Max as the ruckman) and I cannot believe with two weeks between games we hadn't prepared for this eventuality. I am reliably informed the players were in the lecture room twice each day leading up to the game...what exactly were they talking about?

We've all lost games of footy and it is always harder to 'DO' than 'say' but the onslaught out of CBD - led by a 19yo kid against players including Bont, Macrae, Liber and Treloar - 4 of the best clearance players in the last decade - was (and remains) quite staggering.

[Bullies]

Is there a youngster out of contract that we can shake out?

Isaac cumming?

Or are we hamstrung by having no first round pick due to Darcy We may have to give something up to get what we want.

[Scraggers]

I’m not sure if this has been said, but Stephan Martin has to go. Not to be held as a rookie, just gone. Tim English will be a great second ruck/ second forward; his ability below the knees is second to none at his height. He needs another two years to come into his prime. In the meantime, we need to find a proper ruck in his mid twenties. Not a 32 year old who has one/two years left, but someone who is able to give us 5/6 years until Darcy comes into his prime. Who? I have no idea really. I don’t think the names being bandied about (Ceglar/Ladhams) are worth the effort. I also don’t think Grundy will come our way.

[bornadog]

I’m not sure if this has been said, but Stephan Martin has to go. Not to be held as a rookie, just gone. Tim English will be a great second ruck/ second forward; his ability below the knees is second to none at his height. He needs another two years to come into his prime. In the meantime, we need to find a proper ruck in his mid twenties. Not a 32 year old who has one/two years left, but someone who is able to give us 5/6 years until Darcy comes into his prime. Who? I have no idea really. I don’t think the names being bandied about (Ceglar/Ladhams) are worth the effort. I also don’t think Grundy will come our way.

Totally agree, we don't need a short term solution like a Martin, we have to have a strong fit Ruckman who can compete with the Gawn's of the world.

[DOG GOD]

I’m not sure if this has been said, but Stephan Martin has to go. Not to be held as a rookie, just gone. Tim English will be a great second ruck/ second forward; his ability below the knees is second to none at his height. He needs another two years to come into his prime. In the meantime, we need to find a proper ruck in his mid twenties. Not a 32 year old who has one/two years left, but someone who is able to give us 5/6 years until Darcy comes into his prime. Who? I have no idea really. I don’t think the names being bandied about (Ceglar/Ladhams) are worth the effort. I also don’t think Grundy will come our way.

I agree. We were 2-3 years too late for Martin. He’s like the titanic out there, and even though he did his “job” so to speak coming back, his age and injuries have finally caught up.

The sooner we get a bonafide #1 ruck in the 23-26 age bracket the better. If we want to go all the way it’s non negotiable IMO.

[azabob]

I’m not sure if this has been said, but Stephan Martin has to go. Not to be held as a rookie, just gone. Tim English will be a great second ruck/ second forward; his ability below the knees is second to none at his height. He needs another two years to come into his prime. In the meantime, we need to find a proper ruck in his mid twenties. Not a 32 year old who has one/two years left, but someone who is able to give us 5/6 years until Darcy comes into his prime. Who? I have no idea really. I don’t think the names being bandied about (Ceglar/Ladhams) are worth the effort. I also don’t think Grundy will come our way.

So your plan is to get rid of our only real ruck option and have no alternate suggestion?

Ladhams is not worth the effort. He is a bog average ruck and a bog average tall forward.

When exactly will Tim English be a great second ruck / second forward?

[bornadog]

So your plan is to get rid of our only real ruck option and have no alternate suggestion?

Ladhams is not worth the effort. He is a bog average ruck and a bog average tall forward.

When exactly will Tim English be a great second ruck / second forward?

Martin is cooked

[Danjul]

So your plan is to get rid of our only real ruck option and have no alternate suggestion?

Ladhams is not worth the effort. He is a bog average ruck and a bog average tall forward.

When exactly will Tim English be a great second ruck / second forward?

Having seen Young against two quality ruckmen in finals I suggest that he is our second ruck. Although beaten for hitouts his opponents couldn’t place the ball to advantage, allowing our midfielders to easily win the clearances. Will he improve with coaching and another preseason?

[1eyedog]

So your plan is to get rid of our only real ruck option and have no alternate suggestion?

Ladhams is not worth the effort. He is a bog average ruck and a bog average tall forward.

When exactly will Tim English be a great second ruck / second forward?

Martin is done. Ladhams is ok. Competitive at least.

[MrMahatma]

Goldie too oldie?

[macca]

Suggestion on Young to be ruck, as we need to try him in one position.

His got a good tank and has all the physical attributes to play that position. At the moment his a jack of all trades not elite at any.

His a good intercepting mark.

Terrible body positioning and does not have the strength. Can these skills be learnt, or they demand it to be natural/innate for a ruck?

Strengthening work, power weights, lots of core exercises, and rucking drills, will he make it after 10 games next year ?


Rucks take time to come through, and out of nowhere they hit their straps. See Gawn. how in the world melbourne managed to get : Jamar , Jolly, Gawn and Martin and now Jackson is unbelievable.

A lot of the basics are there for him. I would put him ahead of Sweet at the moment as value into the team.

[azabob]

Having seen Young against two quality ruckmen in finals I suggest that he is our second ruck. Although beaten for hitouts his opponents couldn’t place the ball to advantage, allowing our midfielders to easily win the clearances. Will he improve with coaching and another preseason?

I agree with this. We should train him as a ruckman over the pre season and get him hardened.

Hopefully he signs the contract on offer.

[azabob]

Goldie too oldie?

Nah. I’d be ok with that

[Scraggers]

So your plan is to get rid of our only real ruck option and have no alternate suggestion?

Ladhams is not worth the effort. He is a bog average ruck and a bog average tall forward.

When exactly will Tim English be a great second ruck / second forward?


Yes; that is my plan. Get rid of our one and only bonafide ruck. He’s cooked and contributes nothing.

Two seasons for English. His year this year (pre getting knocked out) was good. He has great hands and is great below his knees. Great skills for his height. He is getting better year by year. Two more and he will be unstoppable.

[Scraggers]

Goldie too oldie?

I don’t think he’s too old, I just can’t see him walking away from Collingwood. I’d be okay with it if he did. He’s 27 isn’t he?

[azabob]

I don’t think he’s too old, I just can’t see him walking away from Collingwood. I’d be okay with it if he did. He’s 27 isn’t he?

Goldstein not Grundy

[EasternWest]

I don’t think he’s too old, I just can’t see him walking away from Collingwood. I’d be okay with it if he did. He’s 27 isn’t he?

Disregard

[DOG GOD]

Disregard
34 next July

[Scraggers]

Goldstein not Grundy

Argh … sorry. My bad. Yes, Goldstein is too old. I don’t want us chasing a stop-gap measure.

[MrMahatma]

Argh … sorry. My bad. Yes, Goldstein is too old. I don’t want us chasing a stop-gap measure.

Is a “stop gap” who is good, even for 1 or 2 years (Goldie has been ok with injuries I believed?) not better than getting a mediocre ruck who is 26?

I’d been very into Goldie, and would hope we prioritise capability and talent over age. Durability notwithstanding…

[Sedat]

I’d been very into Goldie, and would hope we prioritise capability and talent over age. Durability notwithstanding…
Goldstein is one of the most durable players in the entire competition. If an injury-riddled 34yo Martin can nullify Gawn in a GF (and he absolutely did), a slightly younger Goldy could do that and more given his proven ability to get up year after year.

[Scraggers]

What about Jarrod Witts from Gold Coast or Rowan Marshall from St Kilda? I will be honest and say I don’t know a lot about them but at least they are true rucks. Nankervis from Richmond? O’Brien from Adelaide?? (O’Brien would be my first choice if Grundy was definitely out).
Surely these guys are better than Goldstein

[azabob]

What about Jarrod Witts from Gold Coast or Rowan Marshall from St Kilda? I will be honest and say I don’t know a lot about them but at least they are true rucks. Nankervis from Richmond? O’Brien from Adelaide?? (O’Brien would be my first choice if Grundy was definitely out).
Surely these guys are better than Goldstein

Jarrod Witts is club captain, 29 and coming off an ACL. Not sure he is really an option.

Marshall is untouchable and would cost the world.

Nankervis - a lot of discussion has been had around him on this board and a few agree he would be the ideal solution. But with Chol and Coleman Jones leaving Richmond no way do they let him go.

The ruck role is a real conundrum for us.

[1eyedog]

Jarrod Witts is club captain, 29 and coming off an ACL. Not sure he is really an option.

Marshall is untouchable and would cost the world.

Nankervis - a lot of discussion has been had around him on this board and a few agree he would be the ideal solution. But with Chol and Coleman Jones leaving Richmond no way do they let him go.

The ruck role is a real conundrum for us.

Yep its gonna have to be something freaky or it will be a Ladhams / Max Lynch type. Both of which btw are an upgrade on English and probably Martin now too if were looking forward to 2022. Sweet can't cover the ground the way Bevo wants and has little to no versatility.

[Danjul]

Goldstein is one of the most durable players in the entire competition. If an injury-riddled 34yo Martin can nullify Gawn in a GF (and he absolutely did), a slightly younger Goldy could do that and more given his proven ability to get up year after year.
Martin and English combined for 17 hitouts against Goldstein early in the season.

Sweets worst performance was 17 against Gawn (who got only 27 and that was his fifth lowest for the season).

Sweets failure that day wasnÂ’t ruck contests but his around the ground play. Surely thatÂ’s not too difficult to improve. If he can add 6 possessions to his game he would be serviceable.

Against Port and St Kilda he personally had 4 clearances in each game (English did better than that once with 6) and the midfielders comfortably won the clearance count.

ThereÂ’s definitely something to work on there, is anything happening?

[1eyedog]

Yes; that is my plan. Get rid of our one and only bonafide ruck. He’s cooked and contributes nothing.

Two seasons for English. His year this year (pre getting knocked out) was good. He has great hands and is great below his knees. Great skills for his height. He is getting better year by year. Two more and he will be unstoppable.

I disagree. He went backwards this year. Had perhaps one ok game in the ruck and was battered flake in the rest. Had hard hands almost all year playing forward bar the Brisbane game in the Rat. I'm worried about him.

At this stage I'd be telling Sweet he's the number 1 ruck next year. Come to think of it he may be our only ruck.

[Scraggers]

I disagree. He went backwards this year. Had perhaps one ok game in the ruck and was battered flake in the rest. Had hard hands almost all year playing forward bar the Brisbane game in the Rat. I'm worried about him.

At this stage I'd be telling Sweet he's the number 1 ruck next year. Come to think of it he may be our only ruck.

I’ll agree to disagree regarding English.

Is our real need a ruck coach. A proper ruck artist who can teach Sweet to be the number one ruck and English number two. I know we had King as our midfield coach, but are we better off investing in both a midfield coach and a ruck coach.

[bornadog]

I’ll agree to disagree regarding English.

Is our real need a ruck coach. A proper ruck artist who can teach Sweet to be the number one ruck and English number two. I know we had King as our midfield coach, but are we better off investing in both a midfield coach and a ruck coach.

Martin was working with them as a mentor during the season.

[Danjul]

IÂ’ll agree to disagree regarding English.

Is our real need a ruck coach. A proper ruck artist who can teach Sweet to be the number one ruck and English number two. I know we had King as our midfield coach, but are we better off investing in both a midfield coach and a ruck coach.

You have put your finger on what we need to improve on 2021.

But I donÂ’t want English as number 2. That should go to Young. I see English as a dominant key position player.

The best number of clearances in a game was 47, when Young shouldered the early ruck against Brisbane in the finals. He lost the hitouts but prevented opponents from controlling the ball. Allowed English to then do well against a tired McInerney.

[macca]

You have put your finger on what we need to improve on 2021.

But I donÂ’t want English as number 2. That should go to Young. I see English as a dominant key position player.

The best number of clearances in a game was 47, when Young shouldered the early ruck against Brisbane in the finals. He lost the hitouts but prevented opponents from controlling the ball. Allowed English to then do well against a tired McInerney.

like your call to get Young in the ruck

We need to play him in one role
His got good enough physical attributes to be a ruck . Tall, fairly agile , good mark and does not lose his feet

Just lacks : body strength , positioning, tap work and learn Stoppage work .

We need to play him in one position and develop him to be elite at. His jack of all trades , master of none

[1eyedog]

like your call to get Young in the ruck

We need to play him in one role
His got good enough physical attributes to be a ruck . Tall, fairly agile , good mark and does not lose his feet

Just lacks : body strength , positioning, tap work and learn Stoppage work .

We need to play him in one position and develop him to be elite at. His jack of all trades , master of none

To be fair Macca this is 95% of what's needed to be a solid AFL ruckman and we need a 2022 ruckman.

[kruder]

I really like Bailey Williams from WCE just not sure he is ready to take the number 1 ruck role at a club yet.

He is one to keep an eye on though.

[Mofra]

I really like Bailey Williams from WCE just not sure he is ready to take the number 1 ruck role at a club yet.

He is one to keep an eye on though.
He is very highly rated at West Coast though, I don't think he's gettable.
I'm really surprised we didn't go harder on Strachan and at this stage we haven't really been linked to anyone solidly.

Sam Power is going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hat

[bornadog]

He is very highly rated at West Coast though, I don't think he's gettable.
I'm really surprised we didn't go harder on Strachan and at this stage we haven't really been linked to anyone solidly.

Sam Power is going to have to pull a rabbit out of his hat

I am a little undecided on whether Ceglar is the right choice.

[LostDog]

Besides Ladhams are we being linked to anyone

[KT31]

Besides Ladhams are we being linked to anyone

Ceglar seems to crop up a bit.

[azabob]

I am a little undecided on whether Ceglar is the right choice.

I think the club is undecided on a ruckman!! So you are not on your own!

[Scraggers]

I really like Bailey Williams from WCE just not sure he is ready to take the number 1 ruck role at a club yet.

He is one to keep an eye on though.

Another Bailey?? That would surely mess with the space time continuum!!!

[LostDog]

I wanted May so bad years ago, surely there's a KPD out there we can shake out

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Another Bailey?? That would surely mess with the space time continuum!!!

Sam Power has so far shown he tends to hold his cards very close to his chest at this time of year. I look forward to seeing how things play out over the coming weeks.

[Mofra]

I am a little undecided on whether Ceglar is the right choice.
Ceglar is better than noone but that's not a very high hurdle.
I'd prefer we look at someone like Ceglar and a young developing ruck. Max Lynch is about the only one left OOC & gettable.

[kruder]

Another Bailey?? That would surely mess with the space time continuum!!!

The more the better I reckon, love them all.

[LostDog]

Sounds like there's no fear of losing English with his mrs playing netball in WA,
Why did we no go hard after Tarant, geez even Majak would of been low risk high reward

[Scraggers]

Martin was working with them as a mentor during the season.

We need more than a mentor. A legitimate ruck coach is what is required if we are going with Young and English is 2022 and beyond.

[1eyedog]

We need more than a mentor. A legitimate ruck coach is what is required if we are going with Young and English is 2022 and beyond.

Steven King has been in control of the mids and has been here forever prior to taking on a new role with the Suns. Was one of the best ruckman in the comp when at Geelong.

Young is too small and English is too timid in the role. Need a real ruckman.

[Danjul]

Steven King has been in control of the mids and has been here forever prior to taking on a new role with the Suns. Was one of the best ruckman in the comp when at Geelong.

Young is too small and English is too timid in the role. Need a real ruckman.

I agree, We certainly need a real ruckman. Young isn’t up for the number one ruckman position.

Young is 1cm shorter than Jackson and 10 kg heavier. As second ruck Jackson turned the game in the GF. As second ruck Young should be able to improve our options.

[Scraggers]

Steven King has been in control of the mids and has been here forever prior to taking on a new role with the Suns. Was one of the best ruckman in the comp when at Geelong.

Young is too small and English is too timid in the role. Need a real ruckman.

No doubt he was a good ruckman, but was he a good ruck coach? Watching the Sutton Medal last night, Bont, Macrae, Libba all thanked King for helping their game. But can he/ did he coach a ruckman?? I’m not in the inner workings (nor do I know anyone that is) I couldn’t tell you if he could coach a ruckman.

[1eyedog]

No doubt he was a good ruckman, but was he a good ruck coach? Watching the Sutton Medal last night, Bont, Macrae, Libba all thanked King for helping their game. But can he/ did he coach a ruckman?? I’m not in the inner workings (nor do I know anyone that is) I couldn’t tell you if he could coach a ruckman.

You raise a good point and I have no idea mate. He's a good coach and was a good ruckman is all I've got to go on.

[GVGjr]

I’ll agree to disagree regarding English.

Is our real need a ruck coach. A proper ruck artist who can teach Sweet to be the number one ruck and English number two. I know we had King as our midfield coach, but are we better off investing in both a midfield coach and a ruck coach.

He's been at the club for 5 years and this is a harsh reflection on how we value the role.
Got rid on Minson when Tim arrived, 2 years later Campbell and Roughead gone with just a rookie in Sweet and JT who was more of a spare parts player than genuine ruck man before adding Martin.
We have clearly not invested the time and effort in developing English into being a premier ruck man.

[Axe Man]

We have clearly not invested the effort in developing English into being a premier ruck man

I must be missing something, how is this clear? From the outside it appears to me up until this year we have been all chips in on developing Tim as our number 1 ruck. Given Tim's lack of progression in the role we decided to get some support for him this year and my guess is most people have supported that move. Despite spending much more time forward this year how do we know we still haven't been trying to develop Tim's ruckwork?

[bornadog]

He's been at the club for 5 years and this is a harsh reflection on how we value the role.
Got rid on Minson when Tim arrived, 2 years later Campbell and Roughead gone with just a rookie in Sweet and JT who was more of a spare parts player than genuine ruck man before adding Martin.
We have clearly not invested the time and effort in developing English into being a premier ruck man.

Not sure why you keep ignoring Tom Boyd - retired early 2019


I must be missing something, how is this clear? From the outside it appears to me up until this year we have been all chips in on developing Tim as our number 1 ruck. Given Tim's lack of progression in the role we decided to get some support for him this year and my guess is most people have supported that move. Despite spending much more time forward this year how do we know we still haven't been trying to develop Tim's ruckwork?

I agree. I don't get the talk that Bevo doesn't value the ruck role? From what I have seen he prefers a mobile ruckman.

Minson - great tap ruck but did nothing around the ground, and was coming to end of career anyway.
Campbell - not up to it, had plenty of chances
Roughead - ok, but his ruck work was disguised by third man up.
Boyd - Mental health issues, but I think would have been great with Tim.

We were clearly caught out with Tom retiring and Tim hasn't progressed as much as we thought he would. WE tried to make up by getting Sweet in and last year we had no hope because we recruited Bruce and Keath so had no way to get another ruck. We still had Trengove, but he was passed his best. Steph was what was available for this year.

Tim is the type of tall that matures slowly.

[soupman]

We have clearly not invested the time and effort in developing English into being a premier ruck man.
Whilst I suspect your reasoning for this line is much more nuanced this reads very much like the lazy media line that "the Bulldogs have not given English enough opportunities to succeed in the ruck role" when the truth is comfortably the opposite. We certainly haven't set him up to succeed through the help of other competent ruckmen, but he has certainly had almost too much faith placed in him and his ruck abilities.



I agree. I don't get the talk that Bevo doesn't value the ruck role? From what I have seen he prefers a mobile ruckman.


It isn't that he doesn't value rucks, he clearly values a mobile ruck who contributes around the ground very highly. The issue is that failing that he would rather not pick a ruck at all.




We were clearly caught out with Tom retiring and Tim hasn't progressed as much as we thought he would. WE tried to make up by getting Sweet in and last year we had no hope because we recruited Bruce and Keath so had no way to get another ruck. We still had Trengove, but he was passed his best. Steph was what was available for this year.


We have gone into the last two seasons making a pretty big gamble that English would "progress as we thought he would", when prior to each campaign he has shown very little to indicate he is ready or capable of nailing that role full time. That's fine except our backup plans were 2020-nothing, 2021-a ruckman that was cooked.

Sweet was brought in as a long term plan, I'd guess that we didn't envisage him playing in his first two seasons with us.

Yes we got Bruce and Keath in but nothing was stopping us trying to get something else of at least "solid enough to call upon" quality.

I'm sure we are trying to attract players, but not getting anybody except for a well-done Martin would indicate to me that we aren't trying hard enough.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Martin was recruited 4 years too late and now in his mid 30’s and injury prone is a big risk. Tim English hasn’t improved as a ruck man in 4 years and is better suited as a key forward.
Sweet was a Premiership ruck man in the SANFL but has obviously fallen out of favour.
Young does have potential but desperately needs more game time in the ruck.
The dominance of Gawn and Jackson in their demolition of both WB and Geelong in the finals to be a key factor in their Premiership win proves how far we have slipped in this key area.

[1eyedog]

Young exploring options, Sweet getting courted by rival clubs and Martin Cooked. Hope Sam has had a plan cooking.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/682678?fbclid=IwAR0EUTnYiuxPXnBGSlZqTEsE2M5UwNh5zD0DEbJEXsMR iS2t0a2M_75JRtA

[GVGjr]

I must be missing something, how is this clear? From the outside it appears to me up until this year we have been all chips in on developing Tim as our number 1 ruck. Given Tim's lack of progression in the role we decided to get some support for him this year and my guess is most people have supported that move. Despite spending much more time forward this year how do we know we still haven't been trying to develop Tim's ruckwork?

No ruck coach, minimal support has resulted in a talent who is somewhat stalling in his development.
Even before Bruce was injured we had moved him into more of a forward role.

[GVGjr]

Whilst I suspect your reasoning for this line is much more nuanced this reads very much like the lazy media line that "the Bulldogs have not given English enough opportunities to succeed in the ruck role" when the truth is comfortably the opposite. We certainly haven't set him up to succeed through the help of other competent ruckmen, but he has certainly had almost too much faith placed in him and his ruck abilities.



It isn't that he doesn't value rucks, he clearly values a mobile ruck who contributes around the ground very highly. The issue is that failing that he would rather not pick a ruck at all.




We have gone into the last two seasons making a pretty big gamble that English would "progress as we thought he would", when prior to each campaign he has shown very little to indicate he is ready or capable of nailing that role full time. That's fine except our backup plans were 2020-nothing, 2021-a ruckman that was cooked.

Sweet was brought in as a long term plan, I'd guess that we didn't envisage him playing in his first two seasons with us.

Yes we got Bruce and Keath in but nothing was stopping us trying to get something else of at least "solid enough to call upon" quality.

I'm sure we are trying to attract players, but not getting anybody except for a well-done Martin would indicate to me that we aren't trying hard enough.

Playing opportunity is the main thing we have given him but we also ran him into the ground along the way because he's had minimal support.

Regarding Martin, it was a low level investment that hasn't quite worked out.

[Hotdog60]

I mentioned this before but we should have persevered with Sweet while Martin was out and I can see why Sweet may look at other options. For a team crying out for a ruckman we have one under our noses and who's to say any of the other left overs out there would be any better.

[Raw Toast]

Have a late growth spurt to get to 202cm and suddenly everyone is interested in you.

More seriously however, I hope for us that Young stays.


Young exploring options, Sweet getting courted by rival clubs and Martin Cooked. Hope Sam has had a plan cooking.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/682678?fbclid=IwAR0EUTnYiuxPXnBGSlZqTEsE2M5UwNh5zD0DEbJEXsMR iS2t0a2M_75JRtA

[bornadog]

Yes we got Bruce and Keath in but nothing was stopping us trying to get something else of at least "solid enough to call upon" quality.

Not sure how we were going to do that with no draft picks left.

[boydogs]

Not sure how we were going to do that with no draft picks left.

What did we get for Tom Campbell?

[bornadog]

What did we get for Tom Campbell?

Not much I think, but he was gone after 2017

[Danjul]

I mentioned this before but we should have persevered with Sweet while Martin was out and I can see why Sweet may look at other options. For a team crying out for a ruckman we have one under our noses and who's to say any of the other left overs out there would be any better.

Last year against Melbourne the Dogs had 13 hitouts for the whole game.

Macrae and Dunkley contributed 1 each, Bruce 5 . English had 6 hitouts and 6 disposals, proving that he is not a ruckman. Gawn didnÂ’t play.

The next week English had 10 hitouts and a couple of weeks later he only managed 8 against Ryder. The concept of developing English into the number 1 ruckman was and is flawed.

[Danjul]

What did we get for Tom Campbell?

In 2017 Campbell gave Goldstein a hiding, 49 hitouts to 25. I didnÂ’t get to that game but a friend who did said he was best on ground. The following week the Dogs played West Coast and he had 47 hitouts and 9 disposals (Stringer also had 9). West Coast had 32 hitouts. The next week He was dropped from the team. Roughead was then the first ruck.

[boydogs]

In 2017 Campbell gave Goldstein a hiding, 49 hitouts to 25. I didnÂ’t get to that game but a friend who did said he was best on ground. The following week the Dogs played West Coast and he had 47 hitouts and 9 disposals (Stringer also had 9). West Coast had 32 hitouts. The next week He was dropped from the team. Roughead was then the first ruck.

Campbell was delisted then rookied by North, we got nothing for him

The market may have changed but if that calibre of player is free then surely we can grab a ruck better than anyone that took the field for us in 2021

Do we win the 2021 premiership if Tom Campbell plays instead of Tim English?

[1eyedog]

Campbell was delisted then rookied by North, we got nothing for him

The market may have changed but if that calibre of player is free then surely we can grab a ruck better than anyone that took the field for us in 2021

Do we win the 2021 premiership if Tom Campbell plays instead of Tim English?

No because Bevo wouldn't have played him. We'll go hard at a Ladhams / Lynch type that can cover ground.

My feeling on Ceglar is that it will be weird if get and play him. He's basically everything we've either moved out of the club, or have had since 2017.

[GVGjr]

No because Bevo wouldn't have played him. We'll go hard at a Ladhams / Lynch type that can cover ground.

My feeling on Ceglar is that it will be weird if get and play him. He's basically everything we've either moved out of the club, or have had since 2017.

Port would want a bit for Ladhams and Lynch is a bit of gamble given he is inexperienced.
Is there much difference between Sweet and Ceglar other than experience?

If we can Young back on board he might have been a pretty good option in supporting English.

[1eyedog]

Port would want a bit for Ladhams and Lynch is a bit of gamble given he is inexperienced.
Is there much difference between Sweet and Ceglar other than experience?

If we can Young back on board he might have been a pretty good option in supporting English.

My feeling is that English simply can't be the number 1 ruck which I think has been mirrored at the club through the acquisition of Martin, and probably the feeling out of Lobbe when we had some interest there.

I'm not totally lost on English being our number 1 ruck but you'd think he needs to finish his apprenticeship and this would be the only reason why I'd be getting a Ceglar type.

Totally agree that we'd need to cough up overs for Ladhams which I think would be too much of a risk when you consider the net reward.

[Axe Man]

My feeling is that English simply can't be the number 1 ruck which I think has been mirrored at the club through the acquisition of Martin, and probably the feeling out of Lobbe when we had some interest there.

I'm not totally lost on English being our number 1 ruck but you'd think he needs to finish his apprenticeship and this would be the only reason why I'd be getting a Ceglar type.

Totally agree that we'd need to cough up overs for Ladhams which I think would be too much of a risk when you consider the net reward.

The Lobbe almost debacle was a full 12 months before we even drafted English so that would have been some next level planning. :D

[1eyedog]

The Lobbe almost debacle was a full 12 months before we even drafted English so that would have been some next level planning. :D

Really? Goodness time flies.

[Axe Man]

Really? Goodness time flies.

Yup, tried to hand over pick 11 for Lobbe in 2015 which we ended up trading to Carlton for the Dunkley/Collins picks.

And people say Bevo doesn't rate rucks.

[Mitcha]

From my understanding pick 11 was what Port Adelaide demanded rather than what we were offering hence the trade was not completed. This keeps getting perpetuated incorrectly.

[Danjul]

My feeling is that English simply can't be the number 1 ruck which I think has been mirrored at the club through the acquisition of Martin, and probably the feeling out of Lobbe when we had some interest there.

I'm not totally lost on English being our number 1 ruck but you'd think he needs to finish his apprenticeship and this would be the only reason why I'd be getting a Ceglar type.

Totally agree that we'd need to cough up overs for Ladhams which I think would be too much of a risk when you consider the net reward.
Why cough up anything when we have a free ruckman under our noses. He looked reasonable when we got him and he has been trained by good ruckmen. His only problem is he has been denied experience.

When people look at Sweet they ignore how he fitted into the team.

During Sweets 5 games Bruce and Naughton averaged 3 goals a game. Weightman got 6 goals from 3 games, so average 2. English played mainly forward in the one game for 2 goals, and he had averaged 2 goals a game previously with Martin. BontÂ’s best return for the year was 4 goals in one of Sweet Â’s games. Only in one of Sweets games was Bont goalless, but he had 30 possessions.

Once Sweet was banished after the Melbourne game (where we still comfortably won the clearances) the goal scoring averages of these key forwards dropped by 50% over the rest of the season and (Weightman dropped slightly). The team had to rely upon midfielders for scoring. By the time it played the Hawks it kicked 5 goals for the whole game (and English managed only 10 hitouts).

[Bulldog4life]

Ceglar is better than noone but that's not a very high hurdle.
I'd prefer we look at someone like Ceglar and a young developing ruck. Max Lynch is about the only one left OOC & gettable.

Wouldn't surprise me if Lynch is a swap for Lipinski. I saw the game when Lynch beat Gawn for hit outs. A good swap for me.

[Axe Man]

Why cough up anything when we have a free ruckman under our noses. He looked reasonable when we got him and he has been trained by good ruckmen. His only problem is he has been denied experience.

When people look at Sweet they ignore how he fitted into the team.

During Sweets 5 games Bruce and Naughton averaged 3 goals a game. Weightman got 6 goals from 3 games, so average 2. English played mainly forward in the one game for 2 goals, and he had averaged 2 goals a game previously with Martin. BontÂ’s best return for the year was 4 goals in one of Sweet Â’s games. Only in one of Sweets games was Bont goalless, but he had 30 possessions.

Once Sweet was banished after the Melbourne game (where we still comfortably won the clearances) the goal scoring averages of these key forwards dropped by 50% over the rest of the season and (Weightman dropped slightly). The team had to rely upon midfielders for scoring. By the time it played the Hawks it kicked 5 goals for the whole game (and English managed only 10 hitouts).

What you are doing here and you do often is listing things that happened but demonstrate no causal links between them. I could say the covid cases in Victoria are down today because the NSW Premier resigned. Both things happened but unless I can at least theorise a plausible correlation between the 2 occurrences it is simply quoting random stats to push a narrative, whilst conveniently ignoring a wide range of other factors.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong but you aren't remotely making an evidence backed case.

[1eyedog]

Why cough up anything when we have a free ruckman under our noses. He looked reasonable when we got him and he has been trained by good ruckmen. His only problem is he has been denied experience.

When people look at Sweet they ignore how he fitted into the team.

During Sweets 5 games Bruce and Naughton averaged 3 goals a game. Weightman got 6 goals from 3 games, so average 2. English played mainly forward in the one game for 2 goals, and he had averaged 2 goals a game previously with Martin. BontÂ’s best return for the year was 4 goals in one of Sweet Â’s games. Only in one of Sweets games was Bont goalless, but he had 30 possessions.

Once Sweet was banished after the Melbourne game (where we still comfortably won the clearances) the goal scoring averages of these key forwards dropped by 50% over the rest of the season and (Weightman dropped slightly). The team had to rely upon midfielders for scoring. By the time it played the Hawks it kicked 5 goals for the whole game (and English managed only 10 hitouts).

It's an easy sell to me regardless of the stats. We need a ruckman and Sweet is a ruckman.

[1eyedog]

Wouldn't surprise me if Lynch is a swap for Lipinski. I saw the game when Lynch beat Gawn for hit outs. A good swap for me.

I watched it too. The Pies were very optimistic about his performance, social media was glowing. I know I went back and read it. Grundy is locked in, is better than Lynch and is durable. He'll be foolish not to take a chance elsewhere just like Lippa would be.

[Danjul]

What you are doing here and you do often is listing things that happened but demonstrate no causal links between them. I could say the covid cases in Victoria are down today because the NSW Premier resigned. Both things happened but unless I can at least theorise a plausible correlation between the 2 occurrences it is simply quoting random stats to push a narrative, whilst conveniently ignoring a wide range of other factors.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong but you aren't remotely making an evidence backed case.

Your example is not valid. For correlation you need multiple data points. If there is a spike in COVID every time a NSW politician resigns we can correlate the size of the spike with the importance of the politician.

Andrews successfully Predicted the spike by looking at the well established correlation between social behaviour and Covid outbreaks.

In Sweets case we have 5 data points, admittedly a small data set, but they are remarkably consistent. His presence in the team does no harm.

A causual link is not necessary.

[Axe Man]

Your example is not valid. For correlation you need multiple data points. If there is a spike in COVID every time a NSW politician resigns we can correlate the size of the spike with the importance of the politician.

Andrews successfully Predicted the spike by looking at the well established correlation between social behaviour and Covid outbreaks.

In Sweets case we have 5 data points, admittedly a small data set, but they are remarkably consistent. His presence in the team does no harm.

A causual link is not necessary.

So if I went to 5 games this year and we won them all would that be solid data? Links are absolutely necessary or you could just be talking in random coincidences.

If you want to make a case for Sweet sell it! Simply saying when Sweet was in the team these things happened - therefore Sweet was the cause is rubbish. Tell us why Sweet helped these things to occur if you want to convince anyone. Perhaps an acknowledgement of other possible influences on these outcomes wouldn't go astray if you want some balance and credibility.

[Danjul]

So if I went to 5 games this year and we won them all would that be solid data? Links are absolutely necessary or you could just be talking in random coincidences.

If you want to make a case for Sweet sell it! Simply saying when Sweet was in the team these things happened - therefore Sweet was the cause is rubbish. Tell us why Sweet helped these things to occur if you want to convince anyone. Perhaps an acknowledgement of other possible influences on these outcomes wouldn't go astray if you want some balance and credibility.
When Sweet was in the ruck for 5 games the team had over 40 clearances 4 times (80%rate) And 36 in the fifth.. Over the previous 3 seasons (60 games) the rate was 25%.

Same with Martin.

Why? Because they are both real ruckmen.

In the first half of the season (the Martin-Sweet era) the team had two 100 point victories, one each.

In the second half of the season the number of losses increased, the percentage was eroded and the team fell out of the top four. When the Martin-Sweet era finished the team went on to lose 4 of its last 7 home and away games.

There is no evidence that having either Martin or Sweet in the team does any harm and history shows that it probably did some good. People who disagree need to provide evidence, and none have. Simply saying that I havenÂ’t offered a sophisticated multi factorial statistical analysis is simply a cop out.

[LostDog]

Naughton has to go back no ifs or butts Cordy needs to bulk up
JUH and English and the Shaq are the targets up front
Hannan no sorry but your a VFL star not a AFL

[FrediKanoute]

Why cough up anything when we have a free ruckman under our noses. He looked reasonable when we got him and he has been trained by good ruckmen. His only problem is he has been denied experience.

When people look at Sweet they ignore how he fitted into the team.

During Sweets 5 games Bruce and Naughton averaged 3 goals a game. Weightman got 6 goals from 3 games, so average 2. English played mainly forward in the one game for 2 goals, and he had averaged 2 goals a game previously with Martin. BontÂ’s best return for the year was 4 goals in one of Sweet Â’s games. Only in one of Sweets games was Bont goalless, but he had 30 possessions.

Once Sweet was banished after the Melbourne game (where we still comfortably won the clearances) the goal scoring averages of these key forwards dropped by 50% over the rest of the season and (Weightman dropped slightly). The team had to rely upon midfielders for scoring. By the time it played the Hawks it kicked 5 goals for the whole game (and English managed only 10 hitouts).

I agree. Whilst a Grundy or a Goldy would be fabulous, Sweety is worth keeping and persisting with. He was good in most games he played this year.

[Grantysghost]

When Sweet was in the ruck for 5 games the team had over 40 clearances 4 times (80%rate) And 36 in the fifth.. Over the previous 3 seasons (60 games) the rate was 25%.

Same with Martin.

Why? Because they are both real ruckmen.

In the first half of the season (the Martin-Sweet era) the team had two 100 point victories, one each.

In the second half of the season the number of losses increased, the percentage was eroded and the team fell out of the top four. When the Martin-Sweet era finished the team went on to lose 4 of its last 7 home and away games.

There is no evidence that having either Martin or Sweet in the team does any harm and history shows that it probably did some good. People who disagree need to provide evidence, and none have. Simply saying that I havenÂ’t offered a sophisticated multi factorial statistical analysis is simply a cop out.

I think in hindsight (I mean we made the GF so did a lot right) not playing Sweet during the period Martin was out was a mistake. Many called for it in real time as well looking back.

I can only guess that he, as Trengove before him didn't contribute enough to Bevo's core tenet "the turnover game"; his GPS numbers maybe indicated this.

Problem I have with that is neither does Martin, and in the era of "the number of the beast" centre clearances are almost as important as his coveted anti counter attack mindset.

If Sweet leaves; wow: questions need asking. I mean he's no Gary Dempsey but we missed a great opportunity to see what he's got.

[SquirrelGrip]

When the Martin-Sweet era finished the team went on to lose 4 of its last 7 home and away games.


To think we had a “Martin-Sweet era”!

[bornadog]

Naughton has to go back no ifs or butts

Naughton and Bruce kicked almost 100 goals between them. Who kicks those if Naughton goes back?

No way should Naughton be moved from the forward line. His incredible marking power would be missed.

As I have mentioned previously a power forward is worth their weight in Gold.

[1eyedog]

Naughton and Bruce kicked almost 100 goals between them. Who kicks those if Naughton goes back?

No way should Naughton be moved from the forward line. His incredible marking power would be missed.

As I have mentioned previously a power forward is worth their weight in Gold.

Yep would spit the dummy big time if this happened. Need a quality key back way easier to find than a gun key forward.

[soupman]

Yep would spit the dummy big time if this happened. Need a quality key back way easier to find than a gun key forward.

Hell they don't even need to be quality.

A competent full back is both easier to find and is less of a downgrade on a quality one than the difference between the equivalents at the other end.

[Twodogs]

From my understanding pick 11 was what Port Adelaide demanded rather than what we were offering hence the trade was not completed. This keeps getting perpetuated incorrectly.

My memory is that the club's had agreed to the trade but Lobbe was on holiday and couldn't be contacted to give his imprimatur to the swap.

[Vred]

Naughton has to go back no ifs or butts Cordy needs to bulk up
JUH and English and the Shaq are the targets up front
Hannan no sorry but your a VFL star not a AFL


The second Naughton is sent back to defense in a permanent role is the second we lose him to another club the second his contract is up, he is arguably the best up and coming forward, and has the ego/swagger of a big key forward to match it, no way he'd be happy down back.

[LostDog]

Anyone from the hawks worth getting

[jeemak]

I thought Bailey Smith didn't drink, Jesus with all the news articles he makes Jake Stringer look like a wiggle
Clearly on the gear, step daughter said he looked cooked out in the town

This is a silly comment.

[hujsh]

I thought Bailey Smith didn't drink, Jesus with all the news articles he makes Jake Stringer look like a wiggle
Clearly on the gear, step daughter said he looked cooked out in the town

So trade him? Is that that hard call you're after here?

[wimberga]

Anyone from the hawks worth getting

Hearing lots of rumours about us and Tim O'brien

[Axe Man]

Hearing lots of rumours about us and Tim O'brien

He's been linked to Port Adelaide in the media. He seems much maligned by Hawks supporters, I guess we can always use another scapegoat!

[The Underdog]

Hearing lots of rumours about us and Tim O'brien

He’s a free agent, so I guess there’s that. Maybe they think they can turn him into an intercept defender. But not an inspiring potential addition, that’s for sure

[Ozza]

So trade him? Is that that hard call you're after here?

Some had him traded by half time of the Brisbane semi!! ;)

[westbulldog]

Originally Posted by LostDog
I thought Bailey Smith ...Clearly on the gear
He is a 20yo letting his hair down after playing every game, you are asserting that he was doing something illegal, where is your evidence of that ?

[Danjul]

He's been linked to Port Adelaide in the media. He seems much maligned by Hawks supporters, I guess we can always use another scapegoat!
Had one very good game this season. Against the Dogs. I hope we don’t chase him on the basis of that. Most games were poor.

One of Ceglar’s best was the same game. So same comment.

[Axe Man]

Had one very good game this season. Against the Dogs. I hope we don’t chase him on the basis of that. Most games were poor.

One of Ceglar’s best was the same game. So same comment.

Do you honestly think that little of Sam Power that he recruits players based just on how they play against us?

[Grantysghost]

Do you honestly think that little of Sam Power that he recruits players based just on how they play against us?

When is 2MP arriving?

[Mofra]

Power mentioned we'd be a little more active this year. Bevo cryptically mentioned our ruck division will look 'substantially different' next year.
Going to be interesting over the next week to see how true those statements are

[Mofra]

When is 2MP arriving?
Just after we sign John Butcher

[Axe Man]

Just after we sign John Butcher

The 3 pronged forward line with Majak Daw will be a sight to behold!

[EasternWest]

The 3 pronged forward line with Majak Daw will be a sight to behold!

We can rotate Jason Porplyzia through too.

[comrade]

I’m pretty sure we brought in Scott Welsh under that rule.

[Grantysghost]

Power mentioned we'd be a little more active this year. Bevo cryptically mentioned our ruck division will look 'substantially different' next year.
Going to be interesting over the next week to see how true those statements are

Third man up is coming back? :cool:

[jeemak]

We can rotate Jason Porplyzia through too.

It's a mystery he's not playing more senior football.

[Ghost Dog]

Finally this forum is starting to get serious....

[The Adelaide Connection]

We can rotate Jason Porplyzia through too.

Darcy Fort will slot in nicely as our bag kicking power forward.

[1eyedog]

Drew Petrie 2nd ruck next season you heard it here.

[EasternWest]

Drew Petrie 2nd ruck next season you heard it here.

We all know this is leading to reanimating the corpse of Peter Street's football career, so let's bypass the flirting and make with the magic.

[Mofra]

We all know this is leading to reanimating the corpse of Peter Street's football career, so let's bypass the flirting and make with the magic.
We could get his modern day equivalent for nothing.
Come on down Mason Cox

[Sedat]

Do you honestly think that little of Sam Power that he recruits players based just on how they play against us?
If Marty McGrath, Eddie Sainsbury and Luke Vogels are in the trade mix, I'll start to get concerned.

[Grantysghost]

If Marty McGrath, Eddie Sainsbury and Luke Vogels are in the trade mix, I'll start to get concerned.

Rove's cousin circa 2003 I'd be done.

[Vred]

Welcome to the club, Tim O'Brien

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-trade-news-rumours-whispers-2021-trade-blog-and-live-chat-for-october-6-free-agency-trade-period-updates-news/news-story/ca59f89dc466fcc65f3085dbb1de06cb

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Intrigued to see how he goes. If he can be a nice step up on Cordy/Gardner then it’s a win. Looking forward to seeing him out there.

[josie]

Bring back BTC, aka Soupy!

[Grantysghost]

I'm ok with this too. (O'Brien).

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm ok with this too. (O'Brien).

Given our restricted draft picks hand I think it’s a good, cheap pickup.

[Grantysghost]

Given our restricted draft picks hand I think it’s a good, cheap pickup.

In an area of need.

[Danjul]

I'm ok with this too. (O'Brien).
In 7 years he has had 1 game with more than 18 possessions. Just happened to be against the Dogs a few weeks ago. At 193 cm he is the same as Cordy. I thought we were after a key defender.

[hujsh]

In 7 years he has had 1 game with more than 18 possessions. Just happened to be against the Dogs a few weeks ago. At 193 cm he is the same as Cordy. I thought we were after a key defender.

In the last year Alex Keath had 1 game with over 18 possessions. Please explain to everyone here that's he's also no good.

[comrade]

O’Brien is an upgrade on Wood who is completely cooked as a top line defender. At no cost from a picks perspective, I don’t have a problem with it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

In 7 years he has had 1 game with more than 18 possessions. Just happened to be against the Dogs a few weeks ago. At 193 cm he is the same as Cordy. I thought we were after a key defender.

I don’t care how many possessions a defender gets.

I agree re his height. I would have preferred someone taller (like a Young) but he’s way more athletic than Cordy. I imagine Schache will also switch back to give us coverage and who knows how Darcy goes. Unfortunately I just don’t think there are many KPD options out there this year.

[Ghost Dog]

O’Brien is an upgrade on Wood who is completely cooked as a top line defender. At no cost from a picks perspective, I don’t have a problem with it.

Does Wood have any other role to play? time to go?

[1eyedog]

In 7 years he has had 1 game with more than 18 possessions. Just happened to be against the Dogs a few weeks ago. At 193 cm he is the same as Cordy. I thought we were after a key defender.

He's essentially a free upgrade on Cordy. He probably lacks the mongrel but he's quicker and will have far more confidence in the air. Must play as the third tall. I'm down with getting O'Brien in.

[comrade]

Does Wood have any other role to play? time to go?

Depth only next year.

[Danjul]

In the last year Alex Keath had 1 game with over 18 possessions. Please explain to everyone here that's he's also no good.
Keath is significantly taller, and in 30 games before we got him had 7 games over 18 possessions, yes 7 not 1. That’s a quarter of his games.

O’Brien certainly is not another Keath.
And where are we going to play him? I thought we need a key position player. At 193 cm he is simply a Cordy clone.

[hujsh]

Keath is significantly taller, and in 30 games before we got him had 7 games over 18 possessions, yes 7 not 1. That’s a quarter of his games.

O’Brien certainly is not another Keath.
And where are we going to play him? I thought we need a key position player. At 193 cm he is simply a Cordy clone.

But now he's only done it once in the last 2 years!

Obviously he's performing terribly with us these last 2 years with such a low possession count. Right?

[Grantysghost]

In 7 years he has had 1 game with more than 18 possessions. Just happened to be against the Dogs a few weeks ago. At 193 cm he is the same as Cordy. I thought we were after a key defender.

My hope is he can be an additional aerial presence down there (has a great leap) and coming from a good system based program will be drilled in the "turn over" game. Also he suits Bevo's swing man fettish.

Unfortunately KPD's dont grow on trees. I'm in the get Talia camp but... You know..the thing.

He's pretty much a free hit, he's 27 so can't see an issue.

[Axe Man]

Keath is significantly taller, and in 30 games before we got him had 7 games over 18 possessions, yes 7 not 1. That’s a quarter of his games.

O’Brien certainly is not another Keath.
And where are we going to play him? I thought we need a key position player. At 193 cm he is simply a Cordy clone.

At 193cm Bont is simply a Cordy clone too right? Perhaps there is a Cordy clone factory on Kamino that we don't know about?

[comrade]

O’Brien isn’t a Cordy replacement. He’s a Wood replacement.

Gardner is the Cordy replacement and should have played ahead of him in the GF.

[Grantysghost]

At 193cm Bont is simply a Cordy clone too right? Perhaps there is a Cordy clone factory on Kamino that we don't know about?

https://i.postimg.cc/MGDyrZZt/Screenshot-20211006-132550-Chrome.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Danjul]

At 193cm Bont is simply a Cordy clone too right? Perhaps there is a Cordy clone factory on Kamino that we don't know about?
Now if he was a clone of Bont I would certainly be interested, but as you should know there is more to a clone than 1 shared characteristic.

[Danjul]

But now he's only done it once in the last 2 years!

Obviously he's performing terribly with us these last 2 years with such a low possession count. Right?
Wrong, with us he plays as a lock down defender. Previously he was an intercept defender. Prior to his injury against Melbourne his figures were pretty good.

I assume you knew all that so the tone of your comment is coming from a desire to ridicule and not simply pure ignorance.

Others here managed to explain the reason for getting O’Brien. I was in error thinking we wanted a key defender and had not realised we were after a Wood replacement.

[hujsh]

Wrong, with us he plays as a lock down defender. Previously he was an intercept defender. Prior to his injury against Melbourne his figures were pretty good.

I assume you knew all that so the tone of your comment is coming from a desire to ridicule and not simply pure ignorance.

Others here managed to explain the reason for getting O’Brien. I was in error thinking we wanted a key defender and had not realised we were after a Wood replacement.

Ah so role and position in the team can be a consideration? Yet you when you thought he was a key back recruit (a lockdown defender like Keath is now) possessions mattered and now that people are saying he's a Wood replacement (an intercept defender historically though not great at it recently) it doesn't?

Isn't that the wrong way around?

[1eyedog]

O’Brien isn’t a Cordy replacement. He’s a Wood replacement.

Gardner is the Cordy replacement and should have played ahead of him in the GF.

Yep Cordy should actually be playing Wood's role as the third tall (even though Wood has played multiple roles this year). Keath, Gards, Cordy (O'Brien) is the way I see it with Wood a break glass in case of emergency depth player. As a third tall O'Brien is an upgrade on Cordy due to his athleticism and superior ability under a high ball.

I do feel sorry for Cordy because he's had to do a lot of heavy lifting over the past few years through no fault of his own but in this time we've had a good look at him and he is deficient in too many areas to continue to be played. He's competitive but slow and has little to no confidence under a high ball. He tries hard to maintain shape but is too prone to brain farts and he provides no benefit with his disposal. Hopefully O'Brien can bring some surety in this role and can mirror Cordy's desperation. Would be a win for us.

O'Brien has some key physical attributes that I like and I hope a change of clubs and Bevo's guidance can turn him into an effective player for us.

[GVGjr]

O’Brien isn’t a Cordy replacement. He’s a Wood replacement.

Gardner is the Cordy replacement and should have played ahead of him in the GF.

I think this is the most likely to be how we are planning this.

I'm OK about adding O'Brien but I thought we could do a bit better.
At 192/193cm tall he will be able to play on a variety of opponents.

[comrade]

Yep Cordy should actually be playing Wood's role as the third tall (even though Wood has played multiple roles this year). Keath, Gards, Cordy (O'Brien) is the way I see it with Wood a break glass in case of emergency depth player. As a third tall O'Brien is an upgrade on Cordy due to his athleticism and superior ability under a high ball.

I do feel sorry for Cordy because he's had to do a lot of heavy lifting over the past few years through no fault of his own but in this time we've had a good look at him and he is deficient in too many areas to continue to be played. He's competitive but slow and has little to no confidence under a high ball. He tries hard to maintain shape but is too prone to brain farts and he provides no benefit with his disposal. Hopefully O'Brien can bring some surety in this role and can mirror Cordy's desperation. Would be a win for us.

O'Brien has some key physical attributes that I like and I hope a change of clubs and Bevo's guidance can turn him into an effective player for us.

Agree with all that. We lack any intercepting ability in our D50 and it’s a critical component of modern footy. O’Brien is more than handy in the air.

[soupman]

I think O'Brien more addresses our inability to find good young key defenders (or really even try that hard).

The key defenders we have drafted of late have been:
2020-Nil
2019-Keath (trade)
2018-Gardner (MSD)
2017-Trengove (Trade), Naughton (Draft)
2016-Young (Draft), NMM? (Draft)
2015-Collins (Draft), Adams (Draft)

Ideally we would be able to turn to our list and have one waiting for more opportunity. We don't, and if we draft one it is unlikely they will be good to go in their first year (plus we don't know if they will even be available to draft). I prefer the idea of having a young tall we can give the opportunity to but O'Brien is a much more practical selection.

I mean really O'Brien is replacing Youngs spot in the squad, and since we were reluctant to play Young anyway it seems he doesn't need to do much to be an upgrade.

[Go_Dogs]

So, our key defensive stocks are now:

Keath
Gardner
Schache (swing man)
Cordy
O’Brien
Darcy (who knows, maybe he goes back? Like Naughty went forward)

It seems a reasonable mix of types and sizes to get the job done. Not elite, but I’m really keen to see how Schache can go (if we do that) as we suddenly have quite a bit of flex and a better user down there.

[whythelongface]

Does O’Brien play a similar role to Lever? Roughly same height and O’Brien is a decent mark who can read the play well and intercept. Obviously not in the same class as Lever but can see similarities. Continue to work on Gardner and Schache in the off season and we have a decent defensive unit with a number of options.

We will probably need Schache up forward but at least this gives us options prior to, and when, Bruce returns.