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GVGjr
16-10-2021, 01:57 PM
https://images.ctfassets.net/u8w3l566ay8a/5KnEijiw7IQYowMc2FVTwJ/553b170971a4b16fce50bf15df2190e2/GFMeWB21GD2339.JPG?w=980&h=520&fit=fill&f=faces

We need to change how we think about Tim English (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/10/16/we-need-to-change-how-we-think-about-tim-english/)

The “ruck merry-go-round” became the calling card of the player exchange period, with six of the seven ruckmen to pursue a move finding new homes.

Mabior Chol, Callum Coleman-Jones, Darcy Fort, Jonathon Ceglar, Max Lynch and Peter Ladhams will each wear new colours next season.

It was speculated that the Western Bulldogs would be in the market, but the vanquished Grand Finalists did not put their hands up.

After list manager Sam Power lured experienced Hawthorn tall Tim O’Brien to Whitten Oval, with coach Luke Beveridge promising minutes behind the ball, the Dogs were done.

Power fended off interest from West Coast to pin down rookie ruckman Jordon Sweet until 2023, while Channel Seven’s Mitch Cleary has reported 34-year-old Stefan Martin will go around again.

This inaction has almost certainly consigned the Dogs to another season of having each loss explained away by relative inexperience in the ruck.

Tim English will likely reprise his role as the lightning rod, having been appraised as timid and too skinny to take the top ruck mantle permanently.

It is a narrative worthy of closer examination.

How was English deployed over the course of the season just past?

Late in the home-and-away season and early in the finals, Beveridge put English in the forward line and selected fringe tall Lewis Young to take the ruck contests.

It is said this illustrates a lack of trust in English, but the truth is that the 24-year-old was on ruck duties for three months, up until Josh Bruce ruptured his anterior cruciate ligament.

From Rounds 12 to 21, English averaged 23.2 hitouts, 4.2 marks and booted six goals, matching established players such as Sean Darcy, Nic Naitanui and Reilly O’Brien.

Even having spent more than half the season in the forward line, he recorded the second-most hitouts in a season of his AFL career to go with his 19 goals.

Would any of the ruckmen on the market have brought more to the team than English?

Difficult to shift, Ceglar recorded 20.9 hitouts, four clearances and two inside 50s per game, reflective of both his physicality and position as a permanent ruck.

The 30-year-old can jam up a stoppage and offer an aerial contest, but he isn’t going to move the needle against elite, experienced players.

Sydney recruit Ladhams averaged fewer hitouts, marks, tackles and intercepts than English in the same role, having lined up forward and gone into the centre when Scott Lycett needed a breather.

Chol for the most part offered mobility after the contest, Fort has had few senior opportunities while Coleman-Jones and Lynch are largely untested.

If the Dogs wanted to lure a contracted ruckman, they would have had to part with draft assets needed to secure Sam Darcy, and money needed to re-sign a handful of stars next season.

How has English improved as a ruckman year-on-year?

The West Australian made just nine appearances in his first two seasons, swaddled in cotton wool as Jordan Roughead and Jackson Trengove went through the centre.

Handed the keys in his third season, English improved to average 19.1 hitouts, 2.2 inside 50s and 2.1 clearances, lowering his colours only to Max Gawn, Brodie Grundy and Todd Goldstein.

In 2020 he was more competitive in the air around the ground, and honed a harder edge with contested possession, stoppage clearance and intercept numbers up.

The arc of his progression has been obfuscated by the recruitment of Martin, and the taste Beveridge has developed for his height and strong hands in the forward line.

To extrapolate from his spell as a permanent ruck in the middle of the season, it is clear English is bearing the fruits of having tapped into the former Lion’s experience and craft.

Is English going to be the same player as the Dogs continue to challenge?

At the same age, Melbourne premiership captain Max Gawn had played 39 games and booted 18 goals; English has played 69 matches and snagged 36 goals.

As a simple measure of competitiveness, Gawn registered 485 hitouts in 13 games in 2015; English recorded 341 in nine games as an out-and-out ruckman in 2021.

This isn’t to say he’ll get to that level - Gawn will be remembered as one of the greatest ruckmen of all time - but experience adds up.

Where other exponents of the craft have had their reputations and projections protected by a long apprenticeship in the twos, English has served his at the top level.

He’s going to get better, again.

Have the Bulldogs’ fortunes turned on the centre bounce?

It is indisputable that Luke Beveridge has been tactically frustrated by the reality the Dogs’ ruck division so far hasn’t been on the same timeline as their vaunted midfield.

The premiership coach has spoken of doing “different things to try and get an edge,” often giving up on and “risk-managing” hitouts when up against the best ruckmen in the competition.

The angle has been inflamed by what could be interpreted as Beveridge's disdain for the position, having sent midfielders into the ruck throughout his tenure.

From defender Brett Goodes contesting centre bounces against Fremantle giant Aaron Sandilands in 2015 to Lin Jong and Josh Dunkley rucking around the ground in more recent times, he has been willing to dispense with the role.

If Beveridge could pick a dominant tall and let the players focus on their strengths rather than mitigating opposition hitouts to advantage, it would afford the Dogs a greater degree of control.

However, they were able to risk-manage - or indeed risk - their way to a 19-point lead in the third quarter of a Grand Final.

Irrespective of Stefan Martin’s fitness for purpose, or the progression of English and Sweet, there are perhaps more pertinent questions of the Dogs’ midfield than whether they control the ruck.

How the players were arranged, combinations of strength, acceleration and defensive intent, and on-field leadership all factored into the Grand Final outcome as much or more than the taps.

So, what does this mean?

We need to recalibrate our perspective of Tim English, basically.

It can be contended that he isn’t as far along as the Dogs need him to be, but his evolution and contribution has been measured against those circumstances, unfairly so.

Similarly, his gentle character and softly-spoken nature has been projected onto his game.

He has been an important piece in a finals team for three seasons now, progressed in multiple roles while building out his body, and is still young for a player of his height.

As for the Dogs, there is work to do, but no personnel change short of adding a Gawn or a Brodie Grundy is going to be as transformative as has been speculated.

Grantysghost
16-10-2021, 02:30 PM
We do seem quick to discount English as a ruck option. I've been guilty of it as he seems to get out positioned so easy but it's easy to forget how young he is.

Not sure how Gawn was going at the same age but I'm all for not wasting time with guys 30+.

We have our first rounder next year, Jammara and Darcy we are in a good spot.

I like our conservative approach and think maybe there's still a better ruckman in Tim yet with the aid of Sweet and the guidance of Martin.

From what was available we didn't go overboard with any knee jerk decisions and I'm ok with that.

Bulldog4life
16-10-2021, 03:56 PM
Often while reading WOOF I feel Tim is hard done by.

bulldogsthru&thru
16-10-2021, 04:17 PM
More his competitiveness and agression that concerns me rather than his craft. His ruck craft can develop. His competitiveness and aggression I’m not so sure. For a guy his size, he should never ever be beaten in contests like his is.

GVGjr
16-10-2021, 04:18 PM
We do seem quick to discount English as a ruck option. I've been guilty of it as he seems to get out positioned so easy but it's easy to forget how young he is.

Not sure how Gawn was going at the same age but I'm all for not wasting time with guys 30+.

We have our first rounder next year, Jammara and Darcy we are in a good spot.

I like our conservative approach and think maybe there's still a better ruckman in Tim yet with the aid of Sweet and the guidance of Martin.

From what was available we didn't go overboard with any knee jerk decisions and I'm ok with that.

It's really hard to compare players at the sames ages as it all depends on who's ahead of them when they arrive. Tim has at least been given plenty of opportunities and was always going to be a longer term pay off.
I'd prefer to see him as our number 1 ruckman but he is a handy forward as well.

jeemak
16-10-2021, 05:13 PM
Who wrote this balanced nonsense?

GVGjr
16-10-2021, 05:22 PM
Who wrote this balanced nonsense?

Nathan John, I've added the link that I should have inserted.

comrade
16-10-2021, 05:23 PM
I just saw a social media piece on Luke Jackson and his progress since getting drafted. Had some clips from the GF. Did not reflect well on Timmy at all.

GVGjr
16-10-2021, 05:26 PM
More his competitiveness and agression that concerns me rather than his craft. His ruck craft can develop. His competitiveness and aggression I’m not so sure. For a guy his size, he should never ever be beaten in contests like his is.

Just a few things to iron out and we won't see the best from him for another season or two. He's a intelligent player who I hope can work out the right balance.

bulldogsthru&thru
16-10-2021, 05:36 PM
I just saw a social media piece on Luke Jackson and his progress since getting drafted. Had some clips from the GF. Did not reflect well on Timmy at all.

Hey the photo in this article looks pretty good!

Grantysghost
16-10-2021, 05:55 PM
I just saw a social media piece on Luke Jackson and his progress since getting drafted. Had some clips from the GF. Did not reflect well on Timmy at all.

Jackson was pick 3.

Very rare for a ruckman.

Sometimes it pays to be terrible after a decent season.

Didn't the Pies do something similar with Pendlebury (vague memory).

GVGjr
16-10-2021, 06:12 PM
Jackson was pick 3.

Very rare for a ruckman.

Sometimes it pays to be terrible after a decent season.

Didn't the Pies do something similar with Pendlebury (vague memory).

Club's often won't make that sort of investment on a ruckman so Melbourne should be praised for their selection courage.

Grantysghost
16-10-2021, 06:24 PM
Club's often won't make that sort of investment on a ruckman so Melbourne should be praised for their selection courage.

Their recruitment team has been pretty good recently.

Grundy was 18 in 2012. (They took Toumpas at 4)

GVGjr
16-10-2021, 06:34 PM
Their recruitment team has been pretty good recently.

Grundy was 19 in 2012. (They took Toumpas at 4)

There is always going to be some misses along the way. Thought pretty highly of Jimmy Toumpas back when he was a junior because he seemed to have plenty of time and was a good decision maker. Clearly he came up well short at the senior level though.

Grantysghost
16-10-2021, 06:40 PM
There is always going to be some misses along the way. Thought pretty highly of Jimmy Toumpas back when he was a junior because he seemed to have plenty of time and was a good decision maker. Clearly he came up well short at the senior level though.

Yeah spot on, Tim Walsh has entered the chat.

comrade
16-10-2021, 07:42 PM
Jackson was pick 3.

Very rare for a ruckman.

Sometimes it pays to be terrible after a decent season.

Didn't the Pies do something similar with Pendlebury (vague memory).

They absolutely smashed that draft out of the park. Jackson is just a natural competitive beast, you either have it or you don’t. Timmy doesn’t, unfortunately.

jeemak
16-10-2021, 07:52 PM
You can improve your competitiveness as you mature, just as you can lose it. Tim mightn't get to the levels of some others in that area, but it doesn't mean he can't improve drastically.

bulldogsthru&thru
16-10-2021, 08:00 PM
Hey we’re all on Tim’s side. Because if he can become what we want and need, it’ll change the face of our on field performances. The Bont is our best. But Tim is probably the most critical in terms of turning us from a top 4 team into a fearful threat year after year.

1eyedog
16-10-2021, 08:24 PM
Who wrote this balanced nonsense?

Danjul clearly

hujsh
16-10-2021, 08:42 PM
Danjul clearly


lots of stats

josie
16-10-2021, 10:15 PM
More his competitiveness and agression that concerns me rather than his craft. His ruck craft can develop. His competitiveness and aggression I’m not so sure. For a guy his size, he should never ever be beaten in contests like his is.

He looked like he was becoming the player we wanted this year until he was concussed. I’d also love him to demand and attack the ball more in the forward line. And even help as a backman when we are being pummelled - I recall he did ok supporting backline in past years from time to time. Hope he makes it to top echelon of ruck/forwards and that it is with us. Intelligent, thoughtful, well spoken young man.

jeemak
16-10-2021, 10:27 PM
He looked like he was becoming the player we wanted this year until he was concussed. I’d also love him to demand and attack the ball more in the forward line. And even help as a backman when we are being pummelled - I recall he did ok supporting backline in past years from time to time. Hope he makes it to top echelon of ruck/forwards and that it is with us. Intelligent, thoughtful, well spoken young man.

No matter what type of footballer he becomes, I'll always want to introduce him to my 94 year old Nanna.

Twodogs
16-10-2021, 10:31 PM
Danjul clearly

I'd like to think that I was too mature to laugh at that.

Sometimes things are as funny as a New Zealand policeman trying to say fish and chips though.

bulldogsthru&thru
16-10-2021, 11:26 PM
He looked like he was becoming the player we wanted this year until he was concussed. I’d also love him to demand and attack the ball more in the forward line. And even help as a backman when we are being pummelled - I recall he did ok supporting backline in past years from time to time. Hope he makes it to top echelon of ruck/forwards and that it is with us. Intelligent, thoughtful, well spoken young man.

Yeah unfortunately thoughtful, intelligent ones are often less courageous on the footy field because they think too much of consequences! ;) I think the concussion did affect him but he should have overcome it later in the year. If not it’s likely to affect him his whole career (I’m talking about him second guessing contests rather than the effects of concussion).

boydogs
16-10-2021, 11:59 PM
From Rounds 12 to 21, English averaged 23.2 hitouts, 4.2 marks and booted six goals, matching established players such as Sean Darcy, Nic Naitanui and Reilly O’Brien.


As a simple measure of competitiveness, Gawn registered 485 hitouts in 13 games in 2015; English recorded 341 in nine games as an out-and-out ruckman in 2021.

341 hitouts in 9 games would be 38 hitouts a game not 23

Bulldog Joe
17-10-2021, 07:34 AM
341 hitouts in 9 games would be 38 hitouts a game not 23

The problem with the stat quoted is that he did have 341 hitouts and he probably did play 9 games as the primary ruckman.

However he played a total of 22 games to get the hitouts, it was just in the majority of the games he was not operating as No 1 ruck.

To really understand they need to delve into what he did in those 9 games rather than use it as a throwaway line.

SquirrelGrip
17-10-2021, 08:45 AM
He looked like he was becoming the player we wanted this year until he was concussed. Hope he makes it to top echelon of ruck/forwards and that it is with us. Intelligent, thoughtful, well spoken young man.

There’s a lot to be said for this. Concussions are impacting sportspeople so much more now. Will Pucovski, Liam Picken, Boyd Cordner, Levi Greenwood…. Tim’s injury was quite horrifying and unconventional.

Hopefully time will help.

Most rucks don’t start to peak until 27+ So happy with where he is heading.

boydogs
18-10-2021, 12:18 AM
The problem with the stat quoted is that he did have 341 hitouts and he probably did play 9 games as the primary ruckman.

However he played a total of 22 games to get the hitouts, it was just in the majority of the games he was not operating as No 1 ruck.

To really understand they need to delve into what he did in those 9 games rather than use it as a throwaway line.

Max Gawn only played 13 games in 2015, not 13 games as the primary ruck and 9 games as a forward or ruck/forward

Max averaged 37 hitouts a game, Tim averaged 23 hitouts a game when he was number 1 ruck

Mofra
18-10-2021, 08:19 AM
There is always going to be some misses along the way. Thought pretty highly of Jimmy Toumpas back when he was a junior because he seemed to have plenty of time and was a good decision maker. Clearly he came up well short at the senior level though.
Toumpas was ruined by injury, his mobility and pace were killed by hip injuries.

Nuggety Back Pocket
19-10-2021, 10:47 PM
Danjul clearly

If you knew Danjul personally as I do you would understand his absolute fanatical support to our beloved Club. In another World he is a highly respected retired Teacher academic. The strength of WOOF is to respect those of differing views to our own.

azabob
20-10-2021, 07:47 AM
If you knew Danjul personally as I do you would understand his absolute fanatical support to our beloved Club. In another World he is a highly respected retired Teacher academic. The strength of WOOF is to respect those of differing views to our own.

NBP thank you for this post. It is a good reminder.

EasternWest
20-10-2021, 07:56 AM
Delete

Grantysghost
20-10-2021, 08:27 AM
If you knew Danjul personally as I do you would understand his absolute fanatical support to our beloved Club. In another World he is a highly respected retired Teacher academic. The strength of WOOF is to respect those of differing views to our own.

Yes well said I like the hear from many different people who analyse the game and express it from their perspective.

Beats an echo chamber that's for sure!

Edit : Unless we lose a GF then you can all get stuffed :cool: (when will it stop hurting!).

josie
20-10-2021, 08:55 AM
Yes well said I like the hear from many different people who analyse the game and express it from their perspective.

Beats an echo chamber that's for sure!

Edit : Unless we lose a GF then you can all get stuffed :cool: (when will it stop hurting!).

Like ‘97 prelim - probably never but a few GF wins will make the medicine go down but not in a delightful way ever.

GVGjr
20-10-2021, 09:45 AM
If you knew Danjul personally as I do you would understand his absolute fanatical support to our beloved Club. In another World he is a highly respected retired Teacher academic. The strength of WOOF is to respect those of differing views to our own.

I've really enjoyed reading his opinions, challenges the status quo the right way.

1eyedog
20-10-2021, 02:04 PM
If you knew Danjul personally as I do you would understand his absolute fanatical support to our beloved Club. In another World he is a highly respected retired Teacher academic. The strength of WOOF is to respect those of differing views to our own.

Agree 100% I like Danjul and mostly agree with his posts regarding the rucks . My post was merely a tip of the hat to him, the article reminded me of him. I also liked the article it was generally positive but tended to focus on specific data to make the case. We all do this from time to time. Being a former academic I now understand his attraction to data sets as well. Thanks NBP.