Argue against us winning the flag.

[Grantysghost]

Hark the Bevolution.

As a 42 year member; I've seen it all.

I was inferior as a child; I was born a Bulldog.

Inferior no more. We have arguably the most talented list in the league, certainly the most talented in my lifetime.

So.

Tell me why we won't win it all.

[Grantysghost]

For me, it's defence and injuries.

Gardner, O'Brien and Keath could be the difference between taking it out or just making up the numbers.

Marra, Naughton and English would be very hard to stop.

Mids go without saying.

I'm bullish!

[mjp]

Hark the Bevolution.

As a 42 year member; I've seen it all.

I was inferior as a child; I was born a Bulldog.

Inferior no more. We have arguably the most talented list in the league, certainly the most talented in my lifetime.

So.

Tell me why we won't win it all.

I was at the Grand Final.
I watched what happened.
When Melbourne elevated, we either COULDN'T or WOULDN'T defend.
If we "COULDN'T", we have hope. And it had been a challenging schedule to say the least.
If we "WOULDN'T", well...

I haven't watched the replay but on the day it seemed all about what we wouldn't do and not even a little bit about whether we could. I'm worried about the same things I was last year. We have too many players who play their best in the same position. They all (and with some justification) THINK they should play there. They let those negative thoughts impact their output.

[GVGjr]

I'm bullish of our chances because given our talented list you shouldn't be able to have a midfield so strong and not be competitive.
We do however, need to add a defensive component to our midfield that we seem reluctant to do. This is where Marc Webb has a chance to shape our team and add another string to the bow.

What could hold us back is the distraction of so many unsigned top line players and perhaps a sense that the hunger isn't quite there much like what happened in 2017.
Getting to GF's is hard work so it's not going to just happen this year just based on a talented list, we have to have this playing group stung by the 2021 capitulation in a GF and showing up with a mindset of getting better.

[bornadog]

I was at the Grand Final.
I watched what happened.
When Melbourne elevated, we either COULDN'T or WOULDN'T defend.
If we "COULDN'T", we have hope. And it had been a challenging schedule to say the least.
If we "WOULDN'T", well...

I haven't watched the replay but on the day it seemed all about what we wouldn't do and not even a little bit about whether we could. I'm worried about the same things I was last year. We have too many players who play their best in the same position. They all (and with some justification) THINK they should play there. They let those negative thoughts impact their output.

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but I will offer excuses for the GF.

The travel in the end killed us, mentally we just couldn't get up anymore. Yes other teams travel but we had to endure lockdown in our hotels in Tassie, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, then Perth. Melbourne went straight to Perth and stayed there. This eventually got to us. Mentally we were shot and just couldn't fight back late in that 3rd quarter.

Injuries compared to Melbourne. Melbourne had one main injury (Tomlinson) and a couple of niggles. We ended up using 40 of our players.

That is my view :D

In answering the OP, injuries to key players will be the only thing that stops us.

[The Underdog]

I'm bullish of our chances because given our talented list you shouldn't be able to have a midfield so strong and not be competitive.
We do however, need to add a defensive component to our midfield that we seem reluctant to do. This is where Marc Webb has a chance to shape our team and add another string to the bow.

What could hold us back is the distraction of so many unsigned top line players and perhaps a sense that the hunger isn't quite there much like what happened in 2017.
Getting to GF's is hard work so it's not going to just happen this year just based on a talented list, we have to have this playing group stung by the 2021 capitulation in a GF and showing up with a mindset of getting better.

This. The Bailey Smith to …whichever club rumours are going to start early and continue on endlessly, on top of Dunkley, Macrae et al. But it’ll be the Smith ones that get the most publicity and traction and end up unsettling him and possibly the rest of the team (at least that’s my argument against us)

[Grantysghost]

I was at the Grand Final.
I watched what happened.
When Melbourne elevated, we either COULDN'T or WOULDN'T defend.
If we "COULDN'T", we have hope. And it had been a challenging schedule to say the least.
If we "WOULDN'T", well...

I haven't watched the replay but on the day it seemed all about what we wouldn't do and not even a little bit about whether we could. I'm worried about the same things I was last year. We have too many players who play their best in the same position. They all (and with some justification) THINK they should play there. They let those negative thoughts impact their output.

When you say Melbourne "elevated" was it purely midfield?

As some know a good mate of mine did oppo analysis for the Saints, and they were strong on the fact we didn't defend from the midfield.

I really hope the new coaches take guys like Macrae who is obviously talented running forward and teach him to be a more complete mid, or that we structure up in a more balanced way.

When Libba was stifled we were really in trouble.

[GVGjr]

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but I will offer excuses for the GF.

The travel in the end killed us, mentally we just couldn't get up anymore. Yes other teams travel but we had to endure lockdown in our hotels in Tassie, Brisbane, Perth, Adelaide, then Perth. Melbourne went straight to Perth and stayed there. This eventually got to us. Mentally we were shot and just couldn't fight back late in that 3rd quarter.

Injuries compared to Melbourne. Melbourne had one main injury (Tomlinson) and a couple of niggles. We ended up using 40 of our players.

That is my view :D

In answering the OP, injuries to key players will be the only thing that stops us.

I'm sorry but I can't agree and I don't think this is an accurate excuse. We were in a strong position in the game and our energy level was fine. With a bit more polish when it counted we would have been 30 points up and asking the question of Melbourne if they had it in them.
Once they got that run on and we didn't respond that's when we looked leg weary and lethargic.
Had we tightened things up when they got that run on we would have had more to play for in the last quarter and put up a better fight. Hopefully we have learned a lesson on how to shut things down when we need to.

[bornadog]

I'm sorry but I can't agree and I don't think this is an accurate excuse. We were in a strong position in the game and our energy level was fine. With a bit more polish when it counted we would have been 30 points and asking the question of Melbourne if they had it in them.
Once they got that run on and we didn't respond that's when we looked leg weary and lethargic.
Had we tightened things up when they got that run on we would have had more to play for in the last quarter and put up a better fight. Hopefully we have learned a lesson on how to shut things down when we need to.

When they got a run on we hit a wall and mentally we couldn't go on anymore.

4 weeks locked in a hotel room is not good preparation for a GF, and with several players under done (Treloar, Dunkley ) we were shot

[jeemak]

I think people underestimate how much energy we burned trying to get back into the game in the GF, and then the wouldn't/ couldn't aspect of midfield/ team defending reared its head (I think all of our players both can't or won't at certain times, they have to be completely on to do so) due to being completely cooked physically and mentally.

So GG, if we have to get to the GF the hard way then I don't think we can win. If we don't do it the hard way we can. A lot will depend on Melbourne and how they respond to their success, and there could be a bolter ready to take a step we can't see just yet.

Good points raised by The Underdog......who knows whether the swinging dick mentality of some players who are out of contract will get in the way of them doing the team thing.

[Grantysghost]

I'm sorry but I can't agree and I don't think this is an accurate excuse. We were in a strong position in the game and our energy level was fine. With a bit more polish when it counted we would have been 30 points up and asking the question of Melbourne if they had it in them.
Once they got that run on and we didn't respond that's when we looked leg weary and lethargic.
Had we tightened things up when they got that run on we would have had more to play for in the last quarter and put up a better fight. Hopefully we have learned a lesson on how to shut things down when we need to.
I've wondered if the week off was a bad thing. 2016 people were banging on about how much of an advantage it was... I wonder if it paused our momentum.

Who knows, these are massive hypotheticals.

Our lack of ability to defend the after goal stoppage appears to have been an issue late in the game.

I do think the travel would have played some part, we can't deny it.

But not sure it was that defining.

[boydogs]

Did nothing in the off season to address our weaknesses, nor the new one created by Bruce going down

[GVGjr]

I've wondered if the week off was a bad thing. 2016 people were banging on about how much of an advantage it was... I wonder if it paused our momentum.

Who knows, these are massive hypotheticals.

Our lack of ability to defend the after goal stoppage appears to have been an issue late in the game.

I do think the travel would have played some part, we can't deny it.

But not sure it was that defining.
There was a two week break between the PF and GF so we had plenty of time to freshen up. We got beaten by a better team on the day and yet we were matching them in intensity and effort until they got the run on.
There is no shame in acknowledging that rather than saying it was a tough draw that drained the players.

[GVGjr]

I've wondered if the week off was a bad thing. 2016 people were banging on about how much of an advantage it was... I wonder if it paused our momentum.

Who knows, these are massive hypotheticals.

Our lack of ability to defend the after goal stoppage appears to have been an issue late in the game.

I do think the travel would have played some part, we can't deny it.

But not sure it was that defining.

The two things that stood out when they got that run on were our inability of the backs to defend the high ball when took those marks and that we couldn't match their intensity when Jackson went into the ruck.
By adding O'Brien for Wood and probably replacing Cordy with Gardner we might have covered being able to defend the high ball but unless Martin has a fountain of youth experience it remains to be seen if we can cover the ruck any better.

I'm not convinced the extra weeks break before the GF worked against us or that it was the travel demands that curtailed us. It probably made things tougher but professional sporting teams travel all the time. I've never heard that a superbowl was lost because of the travel demands.

I'm not saying it wasn't a factor but on GF day we were up for the challenge and didn't look flat and lethargic until Melbourne got that run on. Jee's summary that we spent plenty of tickets getting back into the game has some merits.

[comrade]

Did nothing in the off season to address our weaknesses, nor the new one created by Bruce going down

This. In fact we arguably got weaker in a position of need given our first choice ruckman for the first 2 weeks of finals has left the club.

[bornadog]

It probably made things tougher but professional sporting teams travel all the time. I've never heard that a superbowl was lost because of the travel demands.

A lot different in our case, we were locked in our hotel rooms for 4 weeks.

It's all a moot point now. We have to learn and do better in the future.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I guess for me the best case to make against us winning a flag is history. It's very hard to get back to the big game. History also shows most teams that cop a pasting in the prior year's flag, don't make it back the next year.
Are we going to be like the Bombers of 84 and 85 who put an 83 point shellacking in the 1983 GF behind them to win back to back.. Or like Adelaide in 2018 after they got pumped by Richmond in the GF?

Time will tell.
I suspect how well we do in 2022 will come down a lot to whether our guys are able to absorb and respond to the shortcomings that were exposed by Melbourne towards the end of the 3rd Qtr and beyond.

[Axe Man]

A lot different in our case, we were locked in our hotel rooms for 4 weeks.

It's all a mute point now. We have to learn and do better in the future.

https://i.postimg.cc/dQNJhtgd/Moot-Point-Mute-Point-e1341271002625.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Axe Man]

I guess for me the best case to make against us winning a flag is history. It's very hard to get back to the big game. History also shows most teams that cop a pasting in the prior year's flag, don't make it back the next year.
Are we going to be like the Bombers of 84 and 85 who put an 83 point shellacking in the 1983 GF behind them to win back to back.. Or like Adelaide in 2018 after they got pumped by Richmond in the GF?

Time will tell.
I suspect how well we do in 2022 will come down a lot to whether our guys are able to absorb and respond to the shortcomings that were exposed by Melbourne towards the end of the 3rd Qtr and beyond.

A good article from the mongrel punt talks about the grand final thrashing, among other things (you need to be a member for access to the entire article):

WESTERN BULLDOGS 2022 SEASON PREVIEW – THE BIG QUESTIONS (https://themongrelpunt.com/afl-season-2022/2022/01/30/western-bulldogs-2022-season-preview-the-big-questions/)

Basically they argue that we have more in common with Geelong of 2020 (in the game for 3 quarters), than Adelaide 2017 or GWS 2019 that were blown away.

[jeemak]

If you asked me which team would likely have more tickets in the second half of the 24th/25th game of the season I reckon it would be the one that's played a game every 9.7 days of the last month vs. the one that's played a game every 7 days. Especially if the latter had been travelling and locked up for the majority of that time.

It's OK to acknowledge that's a huge factor, alongside other major factors (like talls not defending well, and midfielders not defending at all etc.). I get that it's not an excuse that we can moan about publicly because it's our own fault that we put ourselves in that position, but it's a massive factor.

[Grantysghost]

This. In fact we arguably got weaker in a position of need given our first choice ruckman for the first 2 weeks of finals has left the club.

I think if I was arguing against us then the ruck situation would certainly be front of mind.
Big questions around English's ability to physically compete against an accomplished ruck who uses his body well, and around Martin being able to complete a season.
Sweet might just be the wildcard, if he improves into a competent AFL ruckman it will go along way to help alleviate the "ruck situation".
I've seen some glimpses from Sweet; I'm pretty bullish about him long term.

[Grantysghost]

I guess for me the best case to make against us winning a flag is history. It's very hard to get back to the big game. History also shows most teams that cop a pasting in the prior year's flag, don't make it back the next year.
Are we going to be like the Bombers of 84 and 85 who put an 83 point shellacking in the 1983 GF behind them to win back to back.. Or like Adelaide in 2018 after they got pumped by Richmond in the GF?

Time will tell.
I suspect how well we do in 2022 will come down a lot to whether our guys are able to absorb and respond to the shortcomings that were exposed by Melbourne towards the end of the 3rd Qtr and beyond.

The Hawks got over run by the Swans and Mitch Morton of all people in 2012. It wasn't as big a margin of course but they rebounded pretty strongly xD

That's a good hypothetical argument against for sure. The GF pantsing memories and how they handle it.

[Vred]

Ill answer this question after round one...

If we can get over the scars/mental side of beating Melbourne and somehow do something with our makeshift ruck setup than maybe I have hope for the rest of the season, if not and it's another 100 point flogging...

[mjp]

A good article from the mongrel punt talks about the grand final thrashing, among other things (you need to be a member for access to the entire article):


Want to know how disengaged I am right now.

I am a MP member. I would have received a notification about this article. I would (you would think) have clicked on something like this...

Yet - somehow, it's 100% just gone through to the keeper.

You want me to add another reason we can't win? If the GF has really sapped my confidence in the resilience of our team, what has it done to the players?

[Grantysghost]

Want to know how disengaged I am right now.

I am a MP member. I would have received a notification about this article. I would (you would think) have clicked on something like this...

Yet - somehow, it's 100% just gone through to the keeper.

You want me to add another reason we can't win? If the GF has really sapped my confidence in the resilience of our team, what has it done to the players?

I guess I look at Melbourne in the years prior, coming from outside the 8 to win a flag * and that Prelim pummelling in 2018

Certainly have a touch of worry though about the possible damage to the core of the group (Hunter, Macrae, Daniel etc).

I'm really not looking forward to Rd 1. The season, yes; Rd 1 no.

[GVGjr]

I guess I look at Melbourne in the years prior, coming from outside the 8 to win a flag * and that Prelim pummelling in 2018

Certainly have a touch of worry though about the possible damage to the core of the group (Hunter, Macrae, Daniel etc).

I'm really not looking forward to Rd 1. The season, yes; Rd 1 no.

You know the Melbourne players had talked about not letting it (the work ethic) slip like happened to the Dogs after 2016.
I'll say they will be up for the challenge of 2022.

[westbulldog]

The capitulation at the GF was bewildering, whilst I was there I still can't believe what unfolded. Anyway my take on it is this - traversing across the country for weeks and isolating was a factor and a bridge too far although it was of our own making and the loss to Hawthorn at UTAS proved significant. Some players simply did not perform on the big stage - Weightman did nothing whilst Hannan and Cordy are surely not imo best 22 in 2022. Our first quarter defence was uncharacteristically deer in the headlights stuff where Williams had a mare ; Dale had a poor day by his season standards and Wood was demolished by Fritsch. Their third quarter momentum started with Jackson and our mids not defending and closing them down at centre bounces, little reaction from the coaching bench was evident. Martin is sadly not an answer in this day of athletic and hard running ruckmen. Langdon ran riot down the wing and nobody went or could go with him, I am maybe looking at Hunter here.
That loss should stick in our gut all season, starting at the MCG on Wednesday March 16 when there is a statement to be made.

[GVGjr]

You want me to add another reason we can't win? If the GF has really sapped my confidence in the resilience of our team, what has it done to the players?

As someone with a long coaching record how would you suggest we would be challenging the team to lift and do better rather than dwelling on the loss? Rebuilding confidence must be right within a good coaches playbook.

While there has been questions about or resilience I remain very confident for 2022. Getting into the top 4 is our first aim.

[Grantysghost]

You know the Melbourne players had talked about not letting it (the work ethic) slip like happened to the Dogs after 2016.
I'll say they will be up for the challenge of 2022.

They'll be wanting to win one at the G too.

I really hope they don't.

I guess some times you can say you're going to back it up but the small things that make all the difference you may let slip a touch.

Also you doubt they'd get a charmed run with injuries like they had last season.

But as you have pointed out they are saying all the right things and I think Lever pushed himself beyond exhaustion pre Xmas so standards are being set early.

[mjp]

As someone with a long coaching record how would you suggest we would be challenging the team to lift and do better rather than dwelling on the loss? Rebuilding confidence must be right within a good coaches playbook.


Just as well you didn't say 'with a long and successful coaching record'...

If it was me, I would be making significant changes to structures and pointing out how the old 'structures' had let us down under pressure...and as coach, I should have seen it. I let you down but I have learned...and this is the way forward. It's going to take a lot of work but...blahdey blah blah.

Something like that. It wasn't you. It was me. I was too focussed on winning and because we were successful I blinded myself to things that *could* go wrong...you guys did it right, I will NEVER let you down again type stuff.

[GVGjr]

Just as well you didn't say 'with a long and successful coaching record'...

If it was me, I would be making significant changes to structures and pointing out how the old 'structures' had let us down under pressure...and as coach, I should have seen it. I let you down but I have learned...and this is the way forward. It's going to take a lot of work but...blahdey blah blah.

Something like that. It wasn't you. It was me. I was too focussed on winning and because we were successful I blinded myself to things that *could* go wrong...you guys did it right, I will NEVER let you down again type stuff.

Thanks for the insight, selling the story that it's a somewhat easy fix will be important for many players to get over it.
What can we do differently in the midfield to stop the opposition get a run on like Melbourne did?

[bornadog]

Thanks for the insight, selling the story that it's a somewhat easy fix will be important for many players to get over it.
What can we do differently in the midfield to stop the opposition get a run on like Melbourne did?

I would have thought it is a team responsibility not just the mids.

[GVGjr]

I would have thought it is a team responsibility not just the mids.

For sure but after a goal the ball was driven long a few times from the centre square. I'm asking what sort of setup we might have been able to use to curb that especially when a team gets a run on.
It's not like we employ lockdown players too often from the centre square.

GWS tend to throw De Boer in there with an assigned job to do.

[bornadog]

For sure but after a goal the ball was driven long a few times from the centre square. I'm asking what sort of setup we might have been able to use to curb that especially when a team gets a run on.
It's not like we employ lockdown players too often from the centre square

GWS tend to throw De Boer in there with an assigned job to do

Well maybe this is what is needed.

[Hotdog60]

Maybe we are too nice of a team and lack some mongrel.
Or is that too old school as in I would have tried my best to put two of their midfielders on the arse early in the piece to say welcome to the final.
Not in a reportable way but as hard as possible with it right on the border line.
We always seemed to be bullied and not the bullies.

[Grantysghost]

Maybe we are too nice of a team and lack some mongrel.
Or is that too old school as in I would have tried my best to put two of their midfielders on the arse early in the piece to say welcome to the final.
Not in a reportable way but as hard as possible with it right on the border line.
We always seemed to be bullied and not the bullies.

I think there's something in this still, especially in a GF.

Not like the old days with Sheedy and Merrett or Wallis but the way the Pies got stuck into Oliver at the SCG and completely nullified him.
I think DeGoey was suspended, but it was walking the line kind of stuff. Hawks unsociable football.

[jeemak]

Without wanting to simplify things too much everyone on the field had to be defencive side of their opponent/ minded to ensure that each Melbourne possession needed to go backwards or be locked in. Rinse and repeat until they start taking bigger risks to get the footy forward, expose them on the error/ turnover.

I go back to it time and time again, but the Libba overexuberance that led to the Petracca blind turn was so unnecessary.

Why are you making me angry GG you sociopath?

[Grantysghost]

Why are you making me angry GG you sociopath?

It was supposed to be about this season! Haha.

[bornadog]

It was supposed to be about this season! Haha.

True, however, not just the GF, but a few games, the opposition got a run on and we didn't stop it, so that is the issue we have to ensure doesn't happen again. I think we do rely on Libba too much in the centre, and once the opposition stops his clearances we were found out a bit.

So, who can help Libba? I think Dunks needs to spend more time in the middle. He has the size and strength, and has done it before.

[MrMahatma]

We can win. I mean, lots has to go right but we still have more upside, and shouldn’t have much downside, unless some players form falls off a cliff which it could.

We should be top 4.

[Grantysghost]

True, however, not just the GF, but a few games, the opposition got a run on and we didn't stop it, so that is the issue we have to ensure doesn't happen again. I think we do rely on Libba too much in the centre, and once the opposition stops his clearances we were found out a bit.

So, who can help Libba? I think Dunks needs to spend more time in the middle. He has the size and strength, and has done it before.

Yes agree, his injury and subsequent lack of form on return was a real blow. Hopefully with a full pre season under his belt again he can recapture his best.

[mjp]

Without wanting to simplify things too much everyone on the field had to be defencive side of their opponent/ minded to ensure that each Melbourne possession needed to go backwards or be locked in. Rinse and repeat until they start taking bigger risks to get the footy forward, expose them on the error/ turnover.

It's not a lot more complicated than that but having a defensive 'structure' will (or should) lead to a mindset change...as in, right now, the most important thing is getting a repeat stoppage, controlling the contest and not letting the ball be cleared.

On GF day, our mids genuinely seemed to have no grasp of this (and admittedly, once it was 'gone' it was gone and you do occasionally see that in Grand Finals) and were still trying to win the footy...I hate when people talk about 'Plan B' (as in "that team has no plan b") because being predictable to your team-mates is the #1 key to successful footy teams and (to me at least) "Plan B" contradicts that, but even so...the idea of being able to react to situations with structural changes and tempo changes - well, that should (I would think) be pretty straight forward. As it - there's 2 minutes to go - we're a goal down...play fast. Or there's 2 minutes to go - we're a goal up...play slow. And 'the other team has a massive run on - keep the footy inside the contest, don't let it out, compress the game and just take the air out of this...

And no - I'm not even reading that rambling commentary back...

[Mofra]

True, however, not just the GF, but a few games, the opposition got a run on and we didn't stop it, so that is the issue we have to ensure doesn't happen again. I think we do rely on Libba too much in the centre, and once the opposition stops his clearances we were found out a bit.

So, who can help Libba? I think Dunks needs to spend more time in the middle. He has the size and strength, and has done it before.
Rhylee West?

The kid is Jack Viney mk 2. Yes he's flawed, but there is no way you'd see Rhylee glory-hunting a possession ahead of the ball.
Libba was doing it but seemed to run out of gas as the finals series wore on. A shame, as his season was sublime.

[Mofra]

It's not a lot more complicated than that but having a defensive 'structure' will (or should) lead to a mindset change...as in, right now, the most important thing is getting a repeat stoppage, controlling the contest and not letting the ball be cleared.

On GF day, our mids genuinely seemed to have no grasp of this (and admittedly, once it was 'gone' it was gone and you do occasionally see that in Grand Finals) and were still trying to win the footy...I hate when people talk about 'Plan B' (as in "that team has no plan b") because being predictable to your team-mates is the #1 key to successful footy teams and (to me at least) "Plan B" contradicts that, but even so...the idea of being able to react to situations with structural changes and tempo changes - well, that should (I would think) be pretty straight forward. As it - there's 2 minutes to go - we're a goal down...play fast. Or there's 2 minutes to go - we're a goal up...play slow. And 'the other team has a massive run on - keep the footy inside the contest, don't let it out, compress the game and just take the air out of this...

And no - I'm not even reading that rambling commentary back...
One of the best basketball coaches I knew said that match-day coaching is actually pretty simple.
It's like the RBA - during a game you only have one big lever to pull if things aren't going as planned. You can either speed the game up or slow the game down. We absolutely needed to slow the game down but we didn't, we let Melbourne play at their speed and it killed us.

I really think we need a 'scrapper' in the team (or at least, a second one). Roarke is one who had to fight tooth and nail just for his list spot and lo and behold he was in our top 5 players on GF day.

Riley Garcia could be that man - drafted late off the back of an ACL injury. Rhylee West's lack of senior opportunity thus far might mean he can be that guy too.

[Bulldog Joe]

Want to know how disengaged I am right now.

I am a MP member. I would have received a notification about this article. I would (you would think) have clicked on something like this...

Yet - somehow, it's 100% just gone through to the keeper.

You want me to add another reason we can't win? If the GF has really sapped my confidence in the resilience of our team, what has it done to the players?

The difference for you and the players, is that the players have in their control the opportunity to do something positive about it.

As supporters you and I are only able to hope or despair until we see the positive actually done.

[Mantis]

We can win. I mean, lots has to go right but we still have more upside, and shouldn’t have much downside, unless some players form falls off a cliff which it could.

We should be top 4.

Who are you most concerned about?

[MrMahatma]

Who are you most concerned about?

I guess we all just assume the likes of Naughton, Smith, Weightman, Dale, English will likely continue to improve. But, what if they go backwards or just have an off year?

We have depth which helps, but some of those guys had really strong years and excellent finals series. They may just have “ok” seasons and if that’s the case, maybe we don’t go so deep.

Of course, if they all improve and Dunks and Treloar and JUH all play to their ability… maybe we go undefeated all season. ��

[mjp]

One of the best basketball coaches I knew said that match-day coaching is actually pretty simple.


He's not wrong...but basketball coaches can call 'Time Out'.

[bornadog]

He's not wrong...but basketball coaches can call 'Time Out'.

We don't have runners any more during play (only after a goal) which makes things a little tricky as well.

[Grantysghost]

He's not wrong...but basketball coaches can call 'Time Out'.

Do you think the restriction on runners has stifled the coaching teams ability to control the play?

I've been lamenting our ability (maybe it's afl wide) to control the tempo. The Bont or Jacko should be calling the play when we need to go slow.

In the GF, back in the day we would've started a fight. Nothing major, just enough to stop the play. Then when you get control, play keepings off. When you're in front thats basically the game.
They have to get it!

I played at a very low local level to be fair.

One of Alan Border's (one of my heroes as a kid) tactics when he felt off was to pick a fight with the slips to get himself fired up.

[Grantysghost]

We don't have runners any more during play (only after a goal) which makes things a little tricky as well.

Beat me xD

[bornadog]

In the GF, back in the day we would've started a fight.

That was a tactic in the VFL days back in the 70s and 80s.

Personally I still don't understand why the runner has been restricted - just another thing AFL loves to meddle with to keep the rules committee in a job.

[Mantis]

That was a tactic in the VFL days back in the 70s and 80s.

Personally I still don't understand why the runner has been restricted - just another thing AFL loves to meddle with to keep the rules committee in a job.

Because runners were on the ground for tactical reasons (blocking up space) rather than just used to deliver messages. They should restrict the amount of time they can stay on the ground when delivering the message rather than limit the times than can go on the ground... but that's a derail.

[Bulldog4life]

Argue against us winning the flag. I think the main thing is Covid. With another spike expected in winter the premier will need luck in this regard. Otherwise I think the top 4 it is and from there the flag.

[Mantis]

I guess we all just assume the likes of Naughton, Smith, Weightman, Dale, English will likely continue to improve. But, what if they go backwards or just have an off year?

We have depth which helps, but some of those guys had really strong years and excellent finals series. They may just have “ok” seasons and if that’s the case, maybe we don’t go so deep.

Of course, if they all improve and Dunks and Treloar and JUH all play to their ability… maybe we go undefeated all season. ��

There's risks with all players & teams so we aren't alone so far but from the limited vision/ feedback we receive from the club it looks like Naughton & Smith are dead-set ''flying'' and Dale & English are improving too... obviously Flea is a wait & see based on his limited preparation, but confident he will be looking to improve on a promising back half on 2021 and by the sounds of it he was playing under duress which might allow him to move more freely.

[mjp]

Do you think the restriction on runners has stifled the coaching teams ability to control the play?

I've been lamenting our ability (maybe it's afl wide) to control the tempo. The Bont or Jacko should be calling the play when we need to go slow.

In the GF, back in the day we would've started a fight. Nothing major, just enough to stop the play. Then when you get control, play keepings off. When you're in front thats basically the game.
They have to get it!

I played at a very low local level to be fair.

One of Alan Border's (one of my heroes as a kid) tactics when he felt off was to pick a fight with the slips to get himself fired up.

1. Runners are a blight on the game and should be banned. Let the players play and keep the playing area clear.

Everyone is surprised when I say this as I've been coaching for so long but honestly, I think the week is for coaching and game day is for playing...the best coaches do their work during the week.

2. Smart man Alan Border. Starting - if not a fight but at least some "SH!T" as some kind of circuit breaker/attitude changer when the Melbourne come-back started would have been a great idea. You don't have to punch someone in the face to change the focus of the opposition...this stuff needs to come from your BEST players though.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

2. Smart man Alan Border. Starting - if not a fight but at least some "SH!T" as some kind of circuit breaker/attitude changer when the Melbourne come-back started would have been a great idea. You don't have to punch someone in the face to change the focus of the opposition...this stuff needs to come from your BEST players though.

Our non-reaction to that third quarter blitz from Melbourne is as much to do with over coaching than anything, and that's not a direct hit at our coaches, more an observation at how 'professional' the game has become in general. And not just AFL - many other sports too.

In bygone eras, that is exactly what would happened. Somebody would have taken aim at Petracca. In today's era, teams are frozen by tactics; that is, they're likely discussing more about what they need to do (i.e. defensive positioning - which ironically we didn't do anyway, and sides when they are getting belted do poorly) than somebody taking it upon themselves to be a circuit breaker.

Unfortunately, emotion has been taken out of the game to a large degree. It's also why we achieved the ultimate in 2016 and against all odds MADE the Grand Final in 2021. For all the tactics in the world (and yes, you still need tactics) the game so often boils down to emotion.

Maybe we were simply frozen by fatigue, but it would have been nice to see somebody try to buck the trend and it had to happen in the middle. That third quarter is something nobody will probably ever see again - it was actually incomprehensible what happened in such a short space of time.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

To the original question, the reality is every Premiership boils down to good fortune at the right time.

Injuries - nothing ground breaking here. If you don't have your best side, or very close to it, you won't go deep.

COVID - the great unknown. What seems likely is players missing weeks, so every side will need some good fortune.

That aside, from a playing list perspective we should be hard to beat again. Sadly, nothing is guaranteed just because we were in the GF last year. Having said that, we tick a lot of the right boxes - young list with nobody near the 'edge', plenty with scope to improve, competition for spots, experience in big games/finals.

Starting the season well is seriously underrated. We need to start like we did last year - playing 'catch up' is just too difficult.

[FrediKanoute]

Leaving COVID aside my main concerns are:

1) who kicks the 40+ goals that Bruce did this year;

2) who is the Bailey Dale/Bailey Smith/Cody Weightman for 2022;

3) which teams from pack that didn't make the 8 are going to bolt.

Can we win the flag? Maybe. It takes a lot of work to make a Grand Final. It takes 120 minutes of good football to win a GF.

[jeemak]

Our non-reaction to that third quarter blitz from Melbourne is as much to do with over coaching than anything, and that's not a direct hit at our coaches, more an observation at how 'professional' the game has become in general. And not just AFL - many other sports too.

In bygone eras, that is exactly what would happened. Somebody would have taken aim at Petracca. In today's era, teams are frozen by tactics; that is, they're likely discussing more about what they need to do (i.e. defensive positioning - which ironically we didn't do anyway, and sides when they are getting belted do poorly) than somebody taking it upon themselves to be a circuit breaker.

Unfortunately, emotion has been taken out of the game to a large degree. It's also why we achieved the ultimate in 2016 and against all odds MADE the Grand Final in 2021. For all the tactics in the world (and yes, you still need tactics) the game so often boils down to emotion.

Maybe we were simply frozen by fatigue, but it would have been nice to see somebody try to buck the trend and it had to happen in the middle. That third quarter is something nobody will probably ever see again - it was actually incomprehensible what happened in such a short space of time.

I get what you're saying, but wouldn't it just have been nice to see someone enact something that we all really would have hoped had been coached into them at some point after the first one or two goals had been kicked against the momentum we had created?

Go the hit, sure. Make funny faces, sure. Do anything other than foot to the floor attack.............too hard. I don't know what shits me more, the thought the players ignored this element or if it wasn't coached to them in the first place.

[Grantysghost]

I get what you're saying, but wouldn't it just have been nice to see someone enact something that we all really would have hoped had been coached into them at some point after the first one or two goals had been kicked against the momentum we had created?

Go the hit, sure. Make funny faces, sure. Do anything other than foot to the floor attack.............too hard. I don't know what shits me more, the thought the players ignored this element or if it wasn't coached to them in the first place.

Yep just disrupt what was happening, either with a bit of a scuffle (nothing major), or playing keeping’s off for 5 to 10 minutes. Getting destroyed like that in a pre season game would be alarming let alone the ultimate game.

We kind of did it in the MCG match, we had some edge about us that night that I think we need more often this season.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I get what you're saying, but wouldn't it just have been nice to see someone enact something that we all really would have hoped had been coached into them at some point after the first one or two goals had been kicked against the momentum we had created?

Go the hit, sure. Make funny faces, sure. Do anything other than foot to the floor attack.............too hard. I don't know what shits me more, the thought the players ignored this element or if it wasn't coached to them in the first place.

Agreed which is why I wonder if we were frozen by fatigue. We became statues figuratively and literally, physically AND mentally.

Libba is one of my all time favourites, but he was diabolical in this period from a physical standpoint and his positioning / Russian roulette. It was really un-Libba like.

It would be interesting to know how we reflect on this game internally. I still can see Bont kicking his third, going 19 up and thinking 'we're gonna win this'. Maybe the problem is, so did the rest of the team....

[azabob]

Agreed which is why I wonder if we were frozen by fatigue. We became statues figuratively and literally, physically AND mentally.

Libba is one of my all time favourites, but he was diabolical in this period from a physical standpoint and his positioning / Russian roulette. It was really un-Libba like.

It would be interesting to know how we reflect on this game internally. I still can see Bont kicking his third, going 19 up and thinking 'we're gonna win this'. Maybe the problem is, so did the rest of the team....

Libba was so instrumental in 2016 sacrificing his own game in working over Kennedy which is even more puzzling why he didn't double down in 2021?

That image of Bont in the 3rd is etched in my mind forever.... if only...

[Grantysghost]

Agreed which is why I wonder if we were frozen by fatigue. We became statues figuratively and literally, physically AND mentally.

Libba is one of my all time favourites, but he was diabolical in this period from a physical standpoint and his positioning / Russian roulette. It was really un-Libba like.

It would be interesting to know how we reflect on this game internally. I still can see Bont kicking his third, going 19 up and thinking 'we're gonna win this'. Maybe the problem is, so did the rest of the team....

Do you think the Port game played any part. Once we got a roll on against them we literally rolled over them. Wonder if the players thought the same was going to happen?

Not being aware or respecting your opponent is a good argument against winning if we have that mindset (see how I tied it in to the OP xD)

[Mofra]

Do you think the Port game played any part. Once we got a roll on against them we literally rolled over them. Wonder if the players thought the same was going to happen?

Not being aware or respecting your opponent is a good argument against winning if we have that mindset (see how I tied it in to the OP xD)
It's what 6-6-6 does - make it much harder for teams to stop momentum.

[Grantysghost]

It's what 6-6-6 does - make it much harder for teams to stop momentum.

Had this chat with some friends who have a bit of coaching experience. They were speculating you may be able to drop your wings deep to the back of the square with a mindset to run back into defence and your half forwards do the same to cover the centre.

Thought it had some merit, particularly if there's a fumbled mark or ground ball from the clearance.

Wonder if it's something we will see happen? Might just not be possible. As i've stated before on here I like watching amazing defence as much as I like scoring. 666 really just has one purpose and that's more goals which seems strange to me.

[Mofra]

Had this chat with some friends who have a bit of coaching experience. They were speculating you may be able to drop your wings deep to the back of the square with a mindset to run back into defence and your half forwards do the same to cover the centre.

Thought it had some merit, particularly if there's a fumbled mark or ground ball from the clearance.

Wonder if it's something we will see happen? Might just not be possible. As i've stated before on here I like watching amazing defence as much as I like scoring. 666 really just has one purpose and that's more goals which seems strange to me.
I actually thought about this early last year, but I wonder if that means teams would force a 'messy' clearance out to one side of the ground to an unopposed wingman?

FWIW I know we (and others) have had a HF sprint tot he contest at the centre bounce to try and gain an advantage as an outnumber. Probably works better for teams that can run and carry as any quick kick out of the centre would likely be marked by the opposition.

[bornadog]

Agreed which is why I wonder if we were frozen by fatigue. We became statues figuratively and literally, physically AND mentally. .

This is also what I have been saying, there seems to be no other explanation.

[mjp]

Had this chat with some friends who have a bit of coaching experience. They were speculating you may be able to drop your wings deep to the back of the square with a mindset to run back into defence and your half forwards do the same to cover the centre.

Thought it had some merit, particularly if there's a fumbled mark or ground ball from the clearance.


I hate it because you're conceding 1v none to the opposition wingers...who if they're smart would pull 15m back off the centre square (further away from the chasing half forwards and kick it over the heads of those sliding defenders.

BUT. It would have been nice to see us try SOMETHING.

[jeemak]

This is also what I have been saying, there seems to be no other explanation.

When have you ever mentioned that?

[Go_Dogs]

I’m very confident. This group is determined and supportive of each other. We don’t need to make big changes, we need consistency and a few minor tweaks around the edges with a bit of better luck with continuity.

Will we win? Who knows. But we will be right in the thick of it and we have Bont and Naughts and Baz.

[bornadog]

When have you ever mentioned that?

Not sure if this is serious or not.

[jeemak]

Not sure if this is serious or not.

:D

Not serious. I think it's been pretty clear you believe fatigue played a major factor if not being the main factor in our demise on grand final day.

To me it was a bit of a perfect storm of multiple factors including an opposition that had ultimate confidence in its ability to lift.

[bornadog]

To me it was a bit of a perfect storm of multiple factors including an opposition that had ultimate confidence in its ability to lift.

Once another teams confidence grows, and heads start to drop it is a recipe for defeat.

The mental side of sport is sometimes under rated. The old saying is 90% of performance is above the shoulders.

Anyway, enough said on the GF, we have to show in 2022, we are mentally tough enough for the whole season, and believe in each other.;Hopefully it will be another exciting season. A must is top four, no more getting there the hard way.

[Topdog]

I thought I was ready to return but reading through this thread I'm not sure.

[MrMahatma]

I thought I was ready to return but reading through this thread I'm not sure.

Rip the bandaid off.

Go dogs!

[AshMac]

I thought I was ready to return but reading through this thread I'm not sure.

Ditto. Was brutal. reckon the lid will be blown off in round 1. their fans will be feral - hope we have a point to prove. For the first off season in my life i haven't been interested in AFL.

We have arguably the best list in the league on paper - also one that is not complete. Gaps in defence and the ruck get shown up by great teams. on our day we can beat anyone

[jeemak]

I'll be in the UK for round one......actually grateful that I won't have to go and put up with Melbourne's disgusting fans.

[DOG GOD]

If Naughton goes down for a period we will struggle to kick a winning score, let alone take a contested mark in our fwd 50.
Too much depends on him, and with English rucking, and Bruce injured, a lot is on his shoulders. I’m not expecting anything much from Jamarra this year.

If Keath goes down for a period of time, I don’t wanna even think about it. Cordy and Gardner will not want to be our key backs too often.

The ruck situation worries me a lot. Can’t see Martin and sweet playing 15 games between them.

We SHOULD make the 8 based on list alone, but if we don’t play a TEAM game then I’m expecting a 5-8 ladder position.

[macca]

If Naughton goes down for a period we will struggle to kick a winning score, let alone take a contested mark in our fwd 50.
Too much depends on him, and with English rucking, and Bruce injured, a lot is on his shoulders. I’m not expecting anything much from Jamarra this year.

If Keath goes down for a period of time, I don’t wanna even think about it. Cordy and Gardner will not want to be our key backs too often.

The ruck situation worries me a lot. Can’t see Martin and sweet playing 15 games between them.

We SHOULD make the 8 based on list alone, but if we don’t play a TEAM game then I’m expecting a 5-8 ladder position.

You pretty much nailed it DG ,

Naughton and Keath down minus a ruck in English or Martin

It be interesting to see who rises from the depth list

Hoping they can step up : Buku , Gardner ( improved kicking and marking ) , Butler, Richards , crozier

The whole list needs to Improve and challenge each other for a spot , for us to get a chance for granny

[AshMac]

You pretty much nailed it DG ,

Naughton and Keath down minus a ruck in English or Martin

It be interesting to see who rises from the depth list

Hoping they can step up : Buku , Gardner ( improved kicking and marking ) , Butler, Richards , crozier

The whole list needs to Improve and challenge each other for a spot , for us to get a chance for granny

Agree we’re dependant on too few KPP’s but disagree the whole list needs to lift. I reckon apart from ruck and a key defender we have the best list in the comp

[SonofScray]

Are we still vulnerable to massive momentum swings?

The GF was a brutal example, though of the times it has happened that’s the one I’ve been able to grapple with best. They’ve been a feature of Bevo’s tenure and while not exactly a black mark against his coaching, we’ve had so,e pretty spectacular swings go the wrong way against us.

[Grantysghost]

Are we still vulnerable to massive momentum swings?

The GF was a brutal example, though of the times it has happened that’s the one I’ve been able to grapple with best. They’ve been a feature of Bevo’s tenure and while not exactly a black mark against his coaching, we’ve had so,e pretty spectacular swings go the wrong way against us.

Agree. We need to be able to take the heat out of an opposition run on more effectively than we have in the past for sure. Tempo footy, if we can't add that string to our bow that would make it tough to win it for mine.

Teams on a run, call the play and keep the ball in our possession for 5 minutes and take the pressure down a bit.

[comrade]

Agree. We need to be able to take the heat out of an opposition run on more effectively than we have in the past for sure. Tempo footy, if we can't add that string to our bow that would make it tough to win it for mine.

Teams on a run, call the play and keep the ball in our possession for 5 minutes and take the pressure down a bit.

The last minute of the Geelong loss is a perfect example. Under pressure, we were unable to find the right tempo and we literally made every mistake possible when just one good decision would have won us the game.

[jeemak]

A strong intercepting presence, hopefully in the form of O'Brien, should help us weather more storms effectively.

But the big shifts need to be curtailed at the source by our midfield of apparent stars.

[Grantysghost]

The last minute of the Geelong loss is a perfect example. Under pressure, we were unable to find the right tempo and we literally made every mistake possible when just one good decision would have won us the game.

I forgot about that. Yes those last few plays we really didn't manage very well.

[Grantysghost]

A strong intercepting presence, hopefully in the form of O'Brien, should help us weather more storms effectively.

But the big shifts need to be curtailed at the source by our midfield of apparent stars.

I'd like to see the older guys, Macrae, Bont, Hunter, Treloar be really proactive at sensing the moment in a game and leading the way in changing how we are playing to mitigate the bleeding.

[comrade]

I'd like to see the older guys, Macrae, Bont, Hunter, Treloar be really proactive at sensing the moment in a game and leading the way in changing how we are playing to mitigate the bleeding.

It’s definitely an issue that needs to fall back on our on field leaders. I can’t imagine guys like Sam Mitchell, Luke Hodge, Selwood etc letting that 15 minute period of Grand Final hell just go on unabated like it did.

[bornadog]

It’s definitely an issue that needs to fall back on our on field leaders. I can’t imagine guys like Sam Mitchell, Luke Hodge, Selwood etc letting that 15 minute period of Grand Final hell just go on unabated like it did.

Well it did happen to Geelong in round 23 when Cats were up almost 6 goals at 3/4 time and Melbourne stormed home in the last winning out of the centre and kicking a quick 6 goals. It is a Melbourne style that all teams need to contend with.

[Mofra]

Well it did happen to Geelong in round 23 when Cats were up almost 6 goals at 3/4 time and Melbourne stormed home in the last winning out of the centre and kicking a quick 6 goals. It is a Melbourne style that all teams need to contend with.
... and then the prelim.
Selwood is past his best though, and I'm not sure Hodge won a final at Brisbane either?

I think we do have the ability, based on Libba's sacrificial job on JPK in the 2016 Grand Final. JPK was miles in front of anyone else for the normie at halftime.
Not sure, if the same scenario occurs, we turn to do stop an opposition run on. Send in Dunks and tell him they said nasty things about Treloar?

[Grantysghost]

... and then the prelim.
Selwood is past his best though, and I'm not sure Hodge won a final at Brisbane either?

I think we do have the ability, based on Libba's sacrificial job on JPK in the 2016 Grand Final. JPK was miles in front of anyone else for the normie at halftime.
Not sure, if the same scenario occurs, we turn to do stop an opposition run on. Send in Dunks and tell him they said nasty things about Treloar?

Was McLean being used in that type of role (lock-down mid) before his injury? I've got a vague feeling he was.

[bornadog]

Selwood is past his best though

Just announced he will play a new role this year - up forward - will be dangerous there I reckon.

[comrade]

Selwood was instrumental in the final minute in their win against us. We’ve also been Geelong’s bitch throughout his captaincy, so I wouldn’t be discounting his leadership abilities.

[bornadog]

Selwood was instrumental in the final minute in their win against us. We’ve also been Geelong’s bitch throughout his captaincy, so I wouldn’t be discounting his leadership abilities.

Should have got time for the two dirty acts in that last 2 minutes - but is untouchable according to AFL

[FrediKanoute]

Had this chat with some friends who have a bit of coaching experience. They were speculating you may be able to drop your wings deep to the back of the square with a mindset to run back into defence and your half forwards do the same to cover the centre.

Thought it had some merit, particularly if there's a fumbled mark or ground ball from the clearance.

Wonder if it's something we will see happen? Might just not be possible. As i've stated before on here I like watching amazing defence as much as I like scoring. 666 really just has one purpose and that's more goals which seems strange to me.

More goals = more TV ad breaks = more money in the AFL's coffers

If that had happened in an Home and away game I might have been sympathetic to the argument that we didn't know what to do or we froze, but given the rule has been in play for a while we needed to have a plan to combat this. Whilst the 3 goal minute burst our bubble it in no way should have precipitated the 70 loss that followed.

Why wont we win the flag? Mainly because winning flag's doesn't just happen. Just because you made the GF last year doesn't mean you are a walk up start this year. We have to have a LOT of things go right from injuries to player development to the ball bouncing our way in a critical 50-50. Top 4 is a minimum pass this year - it should make winning a flag easier.