Adam Treloar or Pat Lipinski...there can be only one.

[mjp]

Just a general quiz on how everyone is looking back at the 2020 trade period - when Treloar fell out of Collingwood's burning building and landed RIGHT on our doorstep!

Hi Adam!

Unfortunately meant that in the 2021 trade period, one of our young mids exited through the side door (landing - without even a hint or irony) at Collingwood.

Bye Pat.

We've now seen R1 of 2022 and both players performed strongly - albeit Lipinski is (approx cos I'm too lazy to look up the details) 6 years younger and $600k in the wallet lighter (each season - though which club is paying the wages is an interesting question)...

Is this trade that wasn't really a trade going the way we had hoped? Or are all the numbers coming up Pies??

[1eyedog]

You want to make an omelette you gotta crack some eggs. Treloar is comfortably in front of Lippa if that's what your asking but who knows what the future holds. Outside of his injuries I've generally been very impressed with Treloar as a player since he made the move over. He rarely puts in a bad game and immediately made us look better with his burst speed over the first 10 metres and his ability to hit the scoreboard on the run from practically anywhere.

As for Lippa, we simply couldn't sustain our plethora of slow mids, especially ones that appear to lack intensity. Lippa was way behind a number of our players.

Can the Pies utilise his skill set more effectively? Possibly. Can Lippa maintain the rage? I'm not so sure. What I do know is that Adz is repaying our faith in him every time he runs out on the ground for us. We've got so many stars that he sometimes goes under the radar for us, but he's a super player.

[Mofra]

Lippa would not get the same opportunity with us as he's getting with Collingwood.
His fortes are endurance and kicking which seems to suit the MCG better than Docklands.

Good luck to him but Treloar at his best is a game breaker. Lippa at his best is a 'good contributer'.
Treloar was possibly our best player in the GF which means he has to be considered ahead.

Some players leave us and I'd still like them to do well - Roughy and Hamling spring to mind, and Lippa is in the same boat for me.

[EasternWest]

Lippa would not get the same opportunity with us as he's getting with Collingwood.
His fortes are endurance and kicking which seems to suit the MCG better than Docklands.

Good luck to him but Treloar at his best is a game breaker. Lippa at his best is a 'good contributer'.
Treloar was possibly our best player in the GF which means he has to be considered ahead.

Some players leave us and I'd still like them to do well - Roughy and Hamling spring to mind, and Lippa is in the same boat for me.

Agree with this. Really happy if Lipinski does well. No losers in this trade.

[Bulldog Joe]

I am comfortable with where it sits, although I concede Lippa will be a major ball magnet at Collingwood way after Treloar has retired.

Treloar is much more likely to be a major game changer when it matters.

[Testekill]

Yeah ultimately Lipinski would have been pushed out of the team even without Treloar, he's a touch too slow to play outside and his physical efforts are a bit too slack to justify playing him anyone where he isn't part of the starting midfield brigade.

[Mantis]

Agree with this. Really happy if Lipinski does well. No losers in this trade.

We could be if Darcy & Jones don't have good AFL careers.

Whilst Lipinski was excess to our requirements given his skillset, you still need to be able to replace AFL standard players with players of need and not give them away for nothing.

[Cyberdoggie]

One good game doesn't make him elite. Let's see how he goes when he gets more attention.
He's got a lot of talent and is a great kick of the ball but has always been slow and lacking defensive efforts, and doesn't like
the the hard stuff.

[soupman]

I think the bigger cost of Treloar is one we won't know, in that I think whatever portion of his salary we are paying took up the last bit of leeway in our cap. So by recruiting Treloar we passed on our flexibility to bring in a different ready made recruit, whether that was a key defender or ruck or whatever.

I really liked Lipinski but the role he plays is basically Macrae, except Jackson is much much better, especially at the contested stuff. I think Treloar has done more to hold back Smith's move into the midfield than he did Lipinski's (although he did push Lipinski one spot further down the queue).

[whythelongface]

Treloar hands down. He will prove to be elite with us. Lippa played well against an average team. Let’s see how he goes against better midfields and becomes more consistent before determining the value of the trade for both clubs. It may well be a win/ win for both.

[Scraggers]

The only reason I was upset to lose Lipinski was the fact that he was a Bulldogs supporter.
If you go back through the game day threads and read the bazillion comments about his disposal, Treloar wins this trade every day of the week and twice on the Sabbath.

[GVGjr]

I'm dirty on the fact we lost Lipinski. He had a future with us.
Treloars clearly the better player but Lippa could have been a player we groomed to be a run with option

[Go_Dogs]

Lipinski is a victim of timing, and a good run with injury in his best position. If he was 4 years younger he was the ideal replacement for a Libba type role in our 22, but alas, he hit his prime years while we had better players in those spots.

Treloar is a jet, and point of difference for our team. Remain very happy with this, although sure the Pies are happy they got one back on us too. Swings and roundabouts…

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I like Lippa but he's a contributor and not much more than that given his severe lack of pace and intensity. The latter looked better in his R1 outing, but I feel intensity is a thing you either have or you don't and I suspect we see more of what we know from him across the year.

He's actually a perfect foil for a side like Collingwood, in that he isn't good enough to be a starter in a contending midfield, but he's an option for sides in the 6th-18th range.

I thought we should have put him up for trade a year earlier to maximise value, but alas, it happened how it happened.

I wish him well but his 'type' isn't hard to find in the draft. Treloar's is pretty bloody hard, though.

[Twodogs]

Trealor for mine. It's not often that a player you've always wanted lands in your lap and I've been a huge Trealor fan since he was at GWS.

[angelopetraglia]

Treloar > Lippa.

Treloar is a proven big game player. He also has line breaking attributes that are rare in the league. Lippa failed a number of big tests in big games for the Bulldogs. Didn't seize the moment and also didn't commit harder enough when it was required. Lippa may improve, but I'm not convinced on his competitiveness in big tough matches or his ability to make the right decision when it really matters under pressure.

[Mofra]

We could be if Darcy & Jones don't have good AFL careers.
I doubt we would have passed on Darcy if we didn't trade Lipinski, and we may have taken Jones anyway as well

[Happy Days]

Been waiting for this one.

Obviously Treloar is better and will probably always be better, but the inference that one begat the other is incorrect. The coach decided at some point that the rules applied more to Lipinski than pretty much everyone else in the team and was never going to work to fit him and his beautiful face and kick in the side. The opportunity was there, we just decided to redirect it to players who Bevo preferred for whatever reason.

This is so frustrating because it’s another one of those things where I call it, I’m right, and my reward for my insight is my footy team getting made worse.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Been waiting for this one.

Obviously Treloar is better and will probably always be better, but the inference that one begat the other is incorrect. The coach decided at some point that the rules applied more to Lipinski than pretty much everyone else in the team and was never going to work to fit him and his beautiful face and kick in the side. The opportunity was there, we just decided to redirect it to players who Bevo preferred for whatever reason.

This is so frustrating because it’s another one of those things where I call it, I’m right, and my reward for my insight is my footy team getting made worse.

I've been critical of Bevo, but I think Lippa was given ample opportunity to prove himself and failed almost every time. He was even thrown into centre bounces last year (vividly remember the Tigers game) and he was awful in his ability to win the ball but also negate the opposition.

He has nice skills, he's a neat player, but the only thing we should be critical of is the fact we didn't trade him 12 months earlier when he had more value.

[jeemak]

Been waiting for this one.

Obviously Treloar is better and will probably always be better, but the inference that one begat the other is incorrect. The coach decided at some point that the rules applied more to Lipinski than pretty much everyone else in the team and was never going to work to fit him and his beautiful face and kick in the side. The opportunity was there, we just decided to redirect it to players who Bevo preferred for whatever reason.

This is so frustrating because it’s another one of those things where I call it, I’m right, and my reward for my insight is my footy team getting made worse.

Would you have continued to play Lippa these past few years and possibly shoehorned him into another role?

[Happy Days]

Would you have continued to play Lippa these past few years and possibly shoehorned him into another role?

Yes. Over the last two years he was never given a consistent run of games to build off the back of his nice finish to 2019 and really only trialled in two positions with any meaningful effort. We were crying out for a wingman to partner with Hunter but his limitations as a player seemed to write him off as a genuine option in that role. I love Ed but how many countless chances has he been given to show something in similar positions, compared to Lipinski who seemed to get banished from the team for losing track of Trent Cotchin at one stoppage?

I really think the cart was put before the horse with Lipinski. The focus on what he couldn’t do was so overblown and we let a talent leave for nothing.

[mjp]

Would you have continued to play Lippa these past few years and possibly shoehorned him into another role?

I understand what HD is saying but you can only play 22.

Once Treloar came in, it really did compress Lipinski's opportunities. What 'OTHER' role would the kid play? We are flooded with half-backs...outside mid/half forward was a chance I suppose (and the R. Smith role was to me one he COULD have played - but Smith seemed to want it 'more' and was prepared to do the sacrificial running required to win and keep the spot)...

I don't disagree that Treloar is "BETTER" - but that doesn't mean it wasn't a sliding doors moment.

[1eyedog]

I am comfortable with where it sits, although I concede Lippa will be a major ball magnet at Collingwood way after Treloar has retired.

Treloar is much more likely to be a major game changer when it matters.

Agreed but we are in our window and this is the precise time to bring in late 20 year old experienced talent in the hope that you maximise your time in the sun. Treloar offers us so much more now than Lippa possibly does in 2-3 years.

[jeemak]

Yes. Over the last two years he was never given a consistent run of games to build off the back of his nice finish to 2019 and really only trialled in two positions with any meaningful effort. We were crying out for a wingman to partner with Hunter but his limitations as a player seemed to write him off as a genuine option in that role. I love Ed but how many countless chances has he been given to show something in similar positions, compared to Lipinski who seemed to get banished from the team for losing track of Trent Cotchin at one stoppage?

I really think the cart was put before the horse with Lipinski. The focus on what he couldn’t do was so overblown and we let a talent leave for nothing.

Thanks. I understand what you're saying I guess, and I really do get annoyed when it seems some player weaknesses are emphasised in preferences and strengths are ignored.

However, in the case of Richards the coach has talked of him (as with Dale and Williams) as having standout attributes that need to be exposed at the top level as much as possible which is why they have all been given a lot of chances. Possibly the thinking with Lippa was his standout attributes were a bit same same to others who are better able to use them.

Good to have you back mate.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

However, in the case of Richards the coach has talked of him (as with Dale and Williams) as having standout attributes that need to be exposed at the top level as much as possible which is why they have all been given a lot of chances. Possibly the thinking with Lippa was his standout attributes were a bit same same to others who are better able to use them..

This is the key to being a good player at the top level.

Unfortunately, Lippa didn't have any standout trait and his weaknesses (lack of intensity and pace) are two critical downfalls for his positions.

Richards (good 1-v-1, great pace), Dale (pace and skill), D Morris (pace/intensity), Ed Langdon (pace, worth ethic) are some random examples that spring to mind.

Going the other way, players like Schache (Lack of pace and intensity), Lippa (ditto), Jack Watts (ditto) can find it difficult even if their footy IQ is high.

[Mantis]

Yes. Over the last two years he was never given a consistent run of games to build off the back of his nice finish to 2019 and really only trialled in two positions with any meaningful effort. We were crying out for a wingman to partner with Hunter but his limitations as a player seemed to write him off as a genuine option in that role. I love Ed but how many countless chances has he been given to show something in similar positions, compared to Lipinski who seemed to get banished from the team for losing track of Trent Cotchin at one stoppage?

I really think the cart was put before the horse with Lipinski. The focus on what he couldn’t do was so overblown and we let a talent leave for nothing.

It was Jack Graham... and to your point Bailey Smith does the same thing (lose his opponent) continually at stoppages, but Baz does have nice hair which trumps a nice face.

[MrMahatma]

Treloar can be BOG regularly within our mid set up. Lippa not so much.

Even if Adam is only 20% better, but paid 50% more… you ultimately need the best quality 22 each week. Adam is better than Lippa.

[Mofra]

Would this debate be a little different if we were paying for all of Treloar's contract?

[Mitcha]

Simple answer for the here and now while our window is open is that Treloar is the better option. He has line breaking speed and an ability to change a game in ten minutes. Lippa while having good footy IQ and a great field kick would not be a best 22 with us most weeks as he would not be playing the role he is at Collingwood presently.

[1eyedog]

Would this debate be a little different if we were paying for all of Treloar's contract?

Great question. My feeling is that we wouldn't have been able to pay all of Treloar's contract without bleeding a best 22 player. If we could have afforded him at 100% of his contract value and not bled a best 22 player I'd probably do it. We know we have to pay overs to get elite talent in the 25-28 age bracket into our club. We always have. If we had that sort of cap available though I'd have started trying to prise out a gun key back before another mid, but that's another story.

I'm not sure the Lippa / Treloar debate is about money as much as it is about Lippa knowing his card was stamped when a better version of him entered the club. His niche skill set and hence opportunity got sucked up in a vacuum as soon as Treloar agreed to come to the club.

[jeemak]

Would this debate be a little different if we were paying for all of Treloar's contract?

Yes. But we're not.

[chef]

Maybe we should wait a few games, Saints mids aint a great measuring stick.

[Mofra]

Great question. My feeling is that we wouldn't have been able to pay all of Treloar's contract without bleeding a best 22 player. If we could have afforded him at 100% of his contract value and not bled a best 22 player I'd probably do it. We know we have to pay overs to get elite talent in the 25-28 age bracket into our club. We always have. If we had that sort of cap available though I'd have started trying to prise out a gun key back before another mid, but that's another story.

I'm not sure the Lippa / Treloar debate is about money as much as it is about Lippa knowing his card was stamped when a better version of him entered the club. His niche skill set and hence opportunity got sucked up in a vacuum as soon as Treloar agreed to come to the club.
That was where I was heading, so thanks - the debate might well have been Lippa + (insert player we lose) vs Treloar.

While not as clear cut, Treloar might still be the preferred option in that case. We paid a similar price in trade capital for Treloar as we received for Lippa, although Treloar (plus a second) was traded for 2 first rounders when he left GWS.

In any case, we got a bargain for someone rated so highly and Lippa joins a list of players who left us for more opportunity who look set to do pretty well at their next club. I expect the Pies will be happy with him.

[mjp]

Maybe we should wait a few games, Saints mids aint a great measuring stick.

LOL - that's fair. I have to admit I've been holding off on this one since the trade and had planned to post it after Lipinski's first game for Collingwood!

It just so happened he played well which I thought would be doubly good for a conversation!

I love Treloar as a player but I still maintain adding him to our group has created more complications than solved problems because he is a #A-grade player who plays in a position where pretty much ALL of our other #A-grade players already play!

[Testekill]

Maybe we should wait a few games, Saints mids aint a great measuring stick.

That's true, Saints really only have Jack Steele.

[chef]

LOL - that's fair. I have to admit I've been holding off on this one since the trade and had planned to post it after Lipinski's first game for Collingwood!

It just so happened he played well which I thought would be doubly good for a conversation!

I love Treloar as a player but I still maintain adding him to our group has created more complications than solved problems because he is a #A-grade player who plays in a position where pretty much ALL of our other #A-grade players already play!

Yeah it's a great idea for a thread. I'm keen to see how he goes against the gun mids of Port/Lions/Us/Dees before getting too worried about him going.

Oppo teams will start putting more time into him too and with the lack of options for the Pies he may be easier to negate.

[angelopetraglia]

Treloar was superb tonight.

[SquirrelGrip]

This thread should be changed to Dunkley or Lipinski, there can be only one. Had we traded Dunks for that first round pick and kept Lippa, now that’s a more interesting discussion…

[azabob]

This thread should be changed to Dunkley or Lipinski, there can be only one. Had we traded Dunks for that first round pick and kept Lippa, now that’s a more interesting discussion…

Jeemak is playing the long game signing up as SquirrelGrip back in 2007 (3 years before actually signing up as jeemak) to again bring up we should trade Dunkley... seriously he is just chasing post counts on his thread on Trade Dunkley

[jeemak]

Jeemak is playing the long game signing up as SquirrelGrip back in 2007 (3 years before actually signing up as jeemak) to again bring up we should trade Dunkley... seriously he is just chasing post counts on his thread on Trade Dunkley

I almost PM'd Twodogs to threaten a ball kicking if he didn't change the thread title back to simply "Trade Dunkley" immediately after the game to make sure the message cut through. However, TD has balls of steel and I wouldn't want to hurt my feet, and while I'm still off Dunkley I'm not ready to reignite that thread just yet.

As for me playing the long game and going incognito, I think the real question is whether I'm actually an alter ego if SquirrelGrip and I don't even know it.

[SquirrelGrip]

As for me playing the long game and going incognito, I think the real question is whether I'm actually an alter ego if SquirrelGrip and I don't even know it.

Our time is now Jeemak.

[Ghost Dog]

LOL - that's fair. I have to admit I've been holding off on this one since the trade and had planned to post it after Lipinski's first game for Collingwood!

It just so happened he played well which I thought would be doubly good for a conversation!

I love Treloar as a player but I still maintain adding him to our group has created more complications than solved problems because he is a #A-grade player who plays in a position where pretty much ALL of our other #A-grade players already play!

Hi MJP
If they can push up and all be kicking goals, don't see it as an issue.
Naughton, Bruce, JUH, I would all have as A-graders.
Down back it's a bit thinner.

[Twodogs]

I almost PM'd Twodogs to threaten a ball kicking if he didn't change the thread title back to simply "Trade Dunkley" immediately after the game to make sure the message cut through. However, TD has balls of steel and I wouldn't want to hurt my feet, and while I'm still off Dunkley I'm not ready to reignite that thread just yet.

As for me playing the long game and going incognito, I think the real question is whether I'm actually an alter ego if SquirrelGrip and I don't even know it.

Your feet are safe with me. In all conscience I couldn't let my testicles damage one of the few feet that can kick a footy properly so I'd feint one way when I saw it coming.