‘The only club I wouldn’t put my hand up for right now’: Why Hawks legend Cyril Rioli has stayed away

[bornadog]

Link (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the-only-club-i-wouldn-t-put-my-hand-up-for-right-now-why-hawks-legend-cyril-rioli-has-stayed-away-20220331-p5a9n9.html)


It is almost four years since Hawthorn president Jeff Kennett spoke to Cyril Rioli’s wife Shannyn in a manner that ultimately precipitated the champion footballer’s dramatic exit from the football club and the game he had so richly punctuated for more than a decade.

The incident has been privately acknowledged by the Hawks and publicly downplayed by Kennett but never have the Riolis publicly addressed what took place in Launceston during the Indigenous round of 2018 after the club’s narrow victory over Port Adelaide.

Rioli described the incident as “the final straw” in the club’s precarious relationship with its Indigenous players and their culture after a string of events in previous years.

Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli was standing in Launceston Airport with her mother-in-law Kathy - who had designed the Hawks’ Indigenous round guernsey - when Kennett approached her and commented upon her designer ripped jeans. According to Shannyn, Kennett asked her what was wrong with her jeans. After making a retort about his boots, Shannyn asked Kennett: “What’s wrong with what I’m wearing Jeffrey?”

The Hawks president then placed his hands in his pockets and offered her - he claims as a joke - some loose change to buy thread to sew up the jeans.

In the days that followed the exchange between Shannyn and a man she barely knew, her husband Cyril missed training and a crisis developed with a number of top-level club meetings involving Kennett, football boss Graham Wright, coach Alastair Clarkson, Rioli’s manager Adam Ramanauskas and teammate Shaun Burgoyne among others. Kennett sent text messages to Rioli and then wrote the Riolis a letter. The couple still keep the letter in their Darwin home. Shannyn says now that his handwriting was superb, but the words were not enough.

“I felt belittled and humiliated,” she said. “The club kept saying I was over-reacting, but they were portraying me as the angry black woman. They said later I had wanted to go home to Darwin for a while. That’s not right.”

Added Cyril Rioli: “I’ve never really spoken about what happened in Tassie, but I think there was a lot of gaslighting at the end of my career by the club.” Rioli’s relationship with Hawthorn is complex and multi-layered, but he remains estranged from the Hawks and doubts he will attend the next 10-year premiership reunion in 2023.

Of the club president, Rioli said: “I wouldn’t want to be there while he’s there.”

There were many incidents that built to Rioli’s decision. Twice Shannyn says she prompted the club to improve its cultural awareness, but there was little response. In an incident that still devastates the couple, they say that on an end-of-season trip in 2013 a senior player asked teammates whether the partner of an Indigenous teammate was “also a boong”.

Kennett insists the Tasmanian incident was misconstrued and that he was disappointed that Rioli felt the way he did. He said on Friday he had exchanged messages as recently as five weeks ago with the champion footballer while Kennett was in Darwin visiting his son, and that he still hoped to catch up with Rioli in-person when the Hawks played in Darwin next month.

“We’re very disappointed his career ended with us when it did. We’ve reached out to Cyril so many times. He is part of Hawthorn, and he is part of Hawthorn’s history, and I’m so disappointed he’s come to this conclusion. But it is what it is.”

Kennett reiterated that his airport comment to Shannyn regarding her jeans was similar to jokes he had made many times previously with many other people. He said he had not meant to cause offence.

Like several past and present senior Hawthorn personnel contacted by The Age, Kennett said Rioli’s welfare remained of paramount concern.

Rioli, the 2015 Norm Smith medallist and a three-time All-Australian, said: “I look back on a lot of things that happened there and it makes me feel all right about myself. There’s a lot of love and I get taken aback a bit about the influence I had.

“But bloody oath it was hard sometimes. Some things that happened to my teammates. The comments by coaches about the blackfellas all sitting together. The white fellas were always welcome to join us. I don’t think they (the club) really had any idea of what it was like for us, in reality.

“Seeing the way they treated Shan. It was the final straw. It opened my eyes seeing how distraught she was and defending her and seeing how they were to us.” Of Kennett’s letter, Rioli said: “It didn’t really explain anything.”

After the Launceston incident, teammate Burgoyne visited the Riolis and attempted to persuade Cyril to stay. Shannyn told The Age of Burgoyne’s visit: “I wasn’t included in the conversation. He never spoke to me about what was happening.”

Football boss Wright visited Shannyn and she says he wondered aloud whether the Kennett comments had triggered some bad memories from her childhood. Wright told The Age he had no recollection of making this comment. Coach Clarkson contacted Shannyn’s mother and sister in a bid to defuse the situation, offering to fly sister Jordan to Melbourne to intervene.

According to the Riolis, Kennett insisted that he had been joking about the jeans and said he had spoken to Shannyn in a way he regularly spoke to his children. The Kennett letter briefly outlined his experience working with First Peoples communities and opened: “I am very sorry my comments at the Launceston Airport offended you. They were not intended to do so.”

Kennett wrote: “I would never, and have never intentionally or unintentionally been disrespectful to a member of the First Peoples community.”

Although Kennett expressed the hope that he and Shannyn could get their relationship “back on track” this never happened.

She recalls that weeks later towards the end of June 2018, after the Riolis had flown back to Melbourne after two soul-searching weeks in Darwin, Kennett spoke over her at a meeting in the offices of Rioli’s TLA management. “I’ve already apologised,” he said. “What more do you want me to do?” Shannyn said she regretted shaking Kennett’s hand at the end of the meeting that laid the foundations for the Rioli’s retirement announcement days later.

An AFL team in the Top End? It’s not as out there as you might think
Shannyn believes Rioli’s only AFL coach Clarkson genuinely tried to do the right thing by her husband despite what she described as some uneducated comments over the years. Clarkson hosted Rioli, Burgoyne and Paul Puopolo at his farm for a Rioli farewell dinner, but Shannyn wishes Clarkson had not tried to influence her through her family after the Kennett incident.

“Junior only ever wanted to finish his career at Hawthorn,” she said. “He wanted to retire at 30, that was always his plan. But he was retired at 28. I feel guilty. I still cry myself to sleep at night wondering if I made my husband walk away from his career.”

And there have been many times, too, that Rioli has told his wife how wrong she is to think that way. That he wouldn’t change a thing. “I told her again the other day. ‘Don’t think that way. Things happen for a reason.’ And I wouldn’t change her for anything.”

continues next page

[bornadog]

Article continues

The exchange seen as an over-reaction by some at the club and yet so hurtful to the Riolis followed a challenging 2017 in which Rioli managed just seven games after a season-ending knee injury, followed by the massive heart attack suffered by his beloved father Cyril Senior. It had been a difficult time for the family and for the couple.

“The way things happened after that,” he said, “it just hurt so much and it hurt her. I just thought I don’t need to take that shit, so it was fight or flight and I said, ‘let’s get out of this shit storm’.”

The couple believe some of Rioli’s mental struggles since retiring from Hawthorn date to his time at boarding school at Scotch College, where he “lost a part of himself” and then trying too hard at Hawthorn to be “a people pleaser”.

Said Rioli: “For a long time it was easier for me to shut up. That was a part of me for a long time. It was hard work, a lot of hard work keeping the peace, and then it was like, I don’t want to be a part of that any more.“

Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli is currently living in Melbourne and has started work this week with designer Silvana Tedesco. She has broken her silence in a bid to explain that the Kennett incident was, as her husband explained, the final straw after a long line of racial red flags that took place during the Riolis’ time at Hawthorn.

In a long meeting with The Age, she still becomes emotional recalling the events of 2018 - Rioli had been contracted until 2020 - and becomes equally moved when trying to explain her husband’s impact upon communities across the Northern Territory and upon his place of birth the Tiwi Islands. “It has such a big impact on him, it’s difficult to explain the effect he has on people, and it means so much.”

Rioli’s time at Hawthorn was a golden era for the club, but it was also a time when the club paid lip service to cultural awareness, largely through lack of education. It was a time when Rioli watched the battles encountered by teammates, notably his fellow Hawk of two years Amos Frank from the remote APY Lands of far north-west South Australia as he navigated the impossible task of becoming an elite sportsman without anywhere near the required support.

Shannyn said those who called her response to Kennett an over-reaction could never understand its context in the events over the years that preceded it. She recalled when a young Indigenous player - still playing with another club - moved in with the Riolis in late 2012 the club was not happy with the influence of his partner and pushed her to return home. She remembered the manner in which a club official spoke to a young relative of the Riolis when he accompanied her into the rooms one post-game occasion.

She recounts an incident on an end-of-season trip in 2013 when a senior player asked teammates whether the partner of one of his Indigenous teammates was “also a boong”. The Indigenous player was at the table at the time. “Cyril found out about it,” said Shannyn, “and was very upset, but when it went to the leadership group they told him to ignore it and just said: ‘Don’t worry about it’. No one in the leadership group stood up to act.”

Added Rioli: “Nothing really happened. We spoke about it, but it was like: ‘You’re there to play footy.’ You move on, but we should have dealt with it. Being young and not really knowing how to deal with it was hard.” Of the Indigenous teammate, Rioli said: “He was really hurt about it.”

Shannyn urged the club to improve its cultural awareness. In 2012, while working with the Victorian Aboriginal Community Controlled Organisation, she emailed the Hawks ′ welfare officer regarding the club’s Indigenous programs but says she received no response. In 2016, she suggested to Clarkson that the club introduce cultural awareness training, but again she said she received no meaningful response.

In 2015, the Hawks’ Indigenous programs were gifted $1 million over five years from the Epic Good foundation in an announcement that heralded the appearance of Rioli, Burgoyne and their three Indigenous teammates just days after Hawthorn supporters had booed Adam Goodes at the MCG. Rioli remembers he and his teammates meeting about Goodes and wishes now he had spoken up.

The club’s subsequent appointment of highly rated Indigenous liaison officer Leon Egan lasted barely one year with Egan only employed one day a week. The club has said the million-dollar funding was largely spent on Hawthorn’s community programs at Katherine. Now the welfare officer role has been mandated as full-time by the AFL and the Hawks appointed Brady Grey two weeks ago.

Cyril Rioli remains in Darwin, where he is working with young Indigenous offenders at First Step, an alternative sentencing and youth diversion program. He has worked with the Northern Territory Thunder and is open to working back in the AFL system, passionate about coaching young Aboriginal men and women, but said he wants no part of being associated with Hawthorn’s Reconciliation Action Plan. “If they want to use my image or get me to the club I want to be paid,” he said. “I deserve that.“

Estranged from Hawthorn and only occasionally in contact with associates from his Hawthorn days, such as former club football boss Mark Evans, Rioli did not watch his former teammate Lance Franklin’s successful quest for 1000 goals last Friday night, but enjoyed the highlights. Of his AFL playing cousins Daniel and Willie Rioli, he said: “I send them random messages every now and then, but I probably should watch a few more of their games and give them more feedback.” His favourite player right now is Kysaiah Pickett.

He did not attend the Hawks’ fixture in Darwin last year and “respectfully declined” an invitation from Clarkson to go fishing while his former coach was recently in the Northern Territory. Clarkson had reportedly set aside several days in a bid to spend time with Rioli, who many believe had become estranged from the majority of his former teammates. “Alastair’s wanted to come up and throw a bone to me,” Rioli said. “He wanted to go fishing, but it was short notice and my boat was in service.”

Should Shannyn choose to remain in Melbourne for the long term, Rioli is open to relocating, but he added of the wife he has known since she was 13: “It’s her journey and I’m so proud of her.

“I would love to work more with young kids and improve their pathways. We haven’t had enough draftees from Alice or the Northern Territory and I think I have something to offer encouraging their development. And I wish we had more player managers looking after their interests.

“They need to know how to look after the business side of footy better and I would advise any young player like me to make sure you are properly looked after and get the right representation.”

Hawthorn’s new coach Sam Mitchell contacted Rioli in December in a bid to make peace between player and club, while also reinforcing a renewed club quest to forge stronger ties with Indigenous Australia. Mitchell told his four-time premiership teammate he was passionate about facilitating change and that he was looking to focus the club’s community involvement away from the Kokoda program initiated by then rookie coach Clarkson and towards the Northern Territory.

Rioli appeared appreciative of Mitchell’s approach, but the journey back to a constructive relationship with the club appears obstacle-laden, particularly while Kennett remains in charge. “I’d be up for helping clubs if they wanted me … Richmond or West Coast … but I wouldn’t go back to Hawthorn after what’s gone on. It’s the only club I wouldn’t put my hand up for right now.”

[Grantysghost]

Very interesting read.

Shame we missed a few years of Cyril.

[EasternWest]

Jeff Kennett being a massive, detestable piece of human garbage?

There's just no way anyone could have seen this coming.

[bornadog]

I always thought Hawks were good at looking after their indigenous players, but I guess bully boy Kennett can't help himself.

Cyril certainly helped attract alot of boys over to Hawthorn, but this article is scathing and I am disgusted people are treated this way.

[Ghost Dog]

How about storm in a tea cup?

[EasternWest]

How about storm in a tea cup?

Wut?

[Grantysghost]

How about storm in a tea cup?

The actual pants comment on their own; maybe. But it has connotations Jeff would've been well aware of.

As part of a litany of issues I can see the reason for the reaction.

[hujsh]

The Hawks president then placed his hands in his pockets and offered her - he claims as a joke - some loose change to buy thread to sew up the jeans.




It's fine everyone he was just joking. Classic





According to the Riolis, Kennett insisted that he had been joking about the jeans and said he had spoken to Shannyn in a way he regularly spoke to his children.




Perfect.






The Kennett letter opened: “I am very sorry my comments at the Launceston Airport offended you. They were not intended to do so.”



Chef's Kiss. Kennett is a true master of not actually taking any responsibility


Kennett spoke over her at a meeting in the offices of Rioli’s TLA management. “I’ve already apologised,” he said. “What more do you want me to do?”

And the coup de grace. Marvelous. It's your fault for not accepting my non-apology. You're being unreasonable

[jazzadogs]

It was a surprising read for me, as Hawthorn and Essendon have always been portrayed as two leaders in the field of indigenous relations. Rioli and Burgoyne are icons, but Wingard and Impey were both reportedly lured to Hawthorn over the dogs because of their indigenous programs. It would be interesting to hear from other indigenous players from Hawthorn, and if these views are shared.

Kennett being terrible was definitely not surprising though.

[Ghost Dog]

Wut?

Hi Jeemak

The cascading length of this article diminishes the journalist in stature when one considers the trifling points here-within.
Jeff had a go at humor with a player's wife on a footy trip regarding the style of her Jeans. Jeff declined to go on a fishing trip. In 2013 someone made a racial comment.
Ok fine, but that's far too many pixels, and smacks of moral outrage, which of course The R-Age is highly awarded for.

The age is just trying to politicize football before an election.
No, am not a fan of the Liberal party.

[Bulldog4life]

Hi Jeemak

The cascading length of this article diminishes the journalist in stature when one considers the trifling points here-within.
Jeff had a go at humor with a player's wife on a footy trip regarding the style of her Jeans. Jeff declined to go on a fishing trip. In 2013 someone made a racial comment.
Ok fine, but that's far too many pixels, and smacks of moral outrage, which of course The R-Age is highly awarded for.

The age is just trying to politicize football before an election.
No, am not a fan of the Liberal party.

So Jee and EW are the same. Always knew it.;)

[EasternWest]

Hi Jeemak

The cascading length of this article diminishes the journalist in stature when one considers the trifling points here-within.
Jeff had a go at humor with a player's wife on a footy trip regarding the style of her Jeans. Jeff declined to go on a fishing trip. In 2013 someone made a racial comment.
Ok fine, but that's far too many pixels, and smacks of moral outrage, which of course The R-Age is highly awarded for.

The age is just trying to politicize football before an election.
No, am not a fan of the Liberal party.

Nah GD, I know you're a decent fella. I just have a different opinion on this.

Jeff Kennett has never done anything but punch downwards, and in my opinion this is just true to type.


So Jee and EW are the same. Always knew it.;)

That explains why Brad Pitt keeps appearing when I'm not expecting him to.

[bornadog]

‘Racism is unacceptable’: Hawks issue apology to Cyril and Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/racism-is-unacceptable-hawks-issue-apology-to-cyril-and-shannyn-ah-sam-rioli-20220402-p5aa90.html)

A prominent Hawthorn supporter group outraged by Jeff Kennett’s treatment of premiership star Cyril Rioli has called for the president to immediately step down.


The Hawks on Saturday apologised to Rioli and his wife Shannyn Ah Sam-Rioli for the racism they experienced at the club, after the four-time premiership winner revealed comments by Kennett contributed to his decision to quit in 2018.


The apology came after Rioli told The Saturday Age that the incident with Victoria’s former Premier was “the final straw” in the club’s precarious relationship with its Indigenous players and their culture after a string of events in previous years.


Members of prominent Hawthorn supporters group Hawks for Change, outraged by the revelations that Rioli will not return to the club, were on Saturday circling to put pressure on Kennett to immediately stand down.


The group, which successfully pushed for former AustralianSuper boss Ian Silk to join the board in December, have been angling for change. It issued a statement on Saturday saying it was “deeply disappointed and concerned” by Kennett’s comments.


“Jeff Kennett’s disrespect of the Rioli family is the latest shameful example of why he is not fit to serve as President of our beloved football club,” the Hawks for Change statement said.


“Jeff Kennett, through his actions, has again brought the reputation of the Hawthorn Football Club into disrepute.“


The group also referenced comments Kennett made in 2016 about his love of golliwogs, a black-faced toy, and how he has one named Buddy after former Hawks champion Lance Franklin.


“Hawks for Change now calls on Jeff Kennett to resign immediately and directors of the Hawthorn Football Club must take a stand and seek Jeff’s resignation today,” they said.


‘The only club I wouldn’t put my hand up for right now’: Why Hawks legend Cyril Rioli has stayed away
“When Eddie McGuire realised he had done the wrong thing he resigned.


“Under the new leadership of Sam Mitchell, the Hawthorn Football Club is fiercely united on the field, but under the stale leadership of Jeff Kennett our Club is clearly divided off it.


“Hawks for Change will continue our campaign for greater diversity and democracy in the leadership of our Club.


“For the good of the mighty Hawthorn Football Club Jeff Kennett must go.”


The club issued an apology to the Rioli family on Saturday, declaring “racism in all shapes and forms is unacceptable”.


“We are sorry that Cyril and Shannyn experienced these incidents during their time at the club. We are saddened these experiences have left them feeling the way they do,” the club statement said.


Kennett’s second term as president is scheduled to end in December next year, but there has been debate about him leaving early. This issue should become clearer when the Hawks’ nomination committee reports back to the board by June 30, with Silk a potential candidate to replace Kennett.


The Hawks said on Friday, the day before the story on Rioli broke, the nominations committee had met for the first time earlier this week.


The six-person committee, chaired by vice-president Peter Nankivell, consists of directors Katie Hudson and Anne-Marie Pellizzer, former board member and club benefactor Geoff Harris, champion ruckman Don Scott and former premiership player Andy Gowers, who is aligned with the Hawks for Change.


Sources close to the Hawks’ board insist current directors Hudson, Owen Wilson and Nankivell also have support to win the presidency.


On Saturday the Hawks told The Age the club did not believe there was a need to launch their own Do Better report, in reference to the review conducted by Collingwood, which sparked major upheaval and ultimately led to president Eddie McGuire’s departure.


Hawks’ indigenous players, including Chad Wingard, Jarman Impey and Tyler Brockman, met with club bosses on Friday. They said they felt culturally safe at the club, and that the club was doing a good job with its Indigenous welfare programs.


The programs have been driven by new coach Sam Mitchell, who introduced a renewed club quest to forge stronger ties with Indigenous Australia. Mitchell told Rioli he was passionate about facilitating change and focusing the club’s community involvement away from the Kokoda program and towards the Northern Territory. Mitchell also encouraged Rioli to “reach out” if he wanted “to be part of the change we are trying to make”.


Rioli has had a complex relationship with the Hawks, which culminated in his decision to quit during the 2018 season. The four-time premiership star and 2015 Norm Smith medallist said “the final straw” for him, including the club’s precarious relationship with its Indigenous players and their culture, came in ’18 after a post-match incident at Launceston Airport between Shannyn, a woman she calls her “mother-in-law”, Lulu, and Kennett.


Shannyn and Lulu - who had designed the Hawks’ Indigenous round guernsey used that day against Port Adelaide - were chatting when Kennett commented upon Shannon’s designer ripped jeans. According to Shannyn, Kennett asked her what was wrong with her jeans. After making a retort about his boots, she asked Kennett: “What’s wrong with what I’m wearing, Jeffrey?”


The Hawks president then placed his hands in his pockets and offered her, he says as a joke, loose change to buy thread to sew up the jeans.


This sparked a crisis between the club, Rioli and his family, and one which remains unresolved despite Kennett’s apology and repeated attempts to rebuild the relationship.


Rioli, who was also dealing with a knee injury at the time, retired soon after, aged 28, and returned home to his family in Darwin.


He remains estranged from the club he played 189 games with and doubts he will attend the next 10-year premiership reunion in 2023.


Of the club president, Rioli said: “I wouldn’t want to be there while he’s there.”


Kennett insists the Tasmanian incident was misconstrued and that he was disappointed Rioli felt the way he did.


Shannyn believes Rioli’s only AFL coach, Alastair Clarkson, genuinely tried to do the right thing by her husband despite what she described as some uneducated comments over the years. Shannon says there was a long line of racial red flags during their time at Hawthorn.


She recounted an incident on an end-of-season trip in 2013 when a senior player asked teammates whether the partner of one of his Indigenous teammates was “also a boong”. The indigenous player was at the table at the time.


The couple believe some of Rioli’s mental struggles since retiring from Hawthorn date to his time at boarding school at Scotch College, where he “lost a part of himself”, and then trying too hard at Hawthorn to be “a people pleaser”.


“Junior only ever wanted to finish his career at Hawthorn,” Shannyn said told The Age.


“He wanted to retire at 30, that was always his plan. But he was retired at 28. I feel guilty. I still cry myself to sleep at night wondering if I made my husband walk away from his career.”


Shannyn said she unsuccessfully urged the club to improve its cultural awareness in 2012, while in 2016, she suggested to Clarkson that the club introduce cultural awareness training, but again she said she received no meaningful response.


The Hawks a fortnight ago appointed Brady Grey as their full-time AFL mandated Indigenous liaison officer.


“Combating racism and educating everyone both within our own walls and in the community is something we are constantly working on and believe we are getting better at. But there is always more work to be done,” the Hawks said in their statement on Saturday.


“We are committed to reconciliation and ensuring our First Nations players are culturally safe and have a voice that is both listened to and acted upon. At Hawthorn, all of our staff and players deserve to be respected. Our doors will always be open to Cyril and Shannyn.”


Hawthorn great Dermott Brereton defended Kennett against calls for his removal as president, saying he had done a “Herculean” job for Hawthorn and had “unfinished business”, and was critical of the Hawks For Change group.


“They have no answers. They just want change for change, and there’s a feeling there’s a personality-driven edge to this,” Brereton said on SEN.


“I don’t think they have any answers to move the club forward in a better shape than what it’s currently doing.”

[angelopetraglia]

Jeff Kennett. Is anyone surprised? Do you remember this from 2011?

******

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/031a7caddc21ef75009bb8f429458883?width=1024

FORMER premier Jeff Kennett has once again courted controversy with his love of the golliwog.

The Hawthorn president has revealed the latest member of his golliwog collection wears a brown and gold uniform, is tall and thin and goes by the name of Buddy, after Hawks forward Lance "Buddy" Franklin.

"Buddy (Franklin) is long, tall and thin and I hope he is as proud of the golliwog as I am," Mr Kennett said when asked what Buddy Franklin's response would be to his namesake.

"They are a major part of my life and I love them," he said.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

"Every golliwog has a name. This one is in Hawthorn colours and he will be my Buddy. He joins Jacko, Mr King - named after boxing promoter Don King - and 40 other gollies in my collection."

But not everyone shares his love of the doll, and former Brisbane Lion Chris Johnson yesterday voiced concern about Mr Kennett's latest golly, which comes after a string of incidents involving racism in football.

"It's definitely a little bit inappropriate," he said.

"He probably should be thinking of the pressure he is putting on Franklin.

"I don't think it matters what colour you are, he is being disrespectful to one of his marquee players who should be focusing on a big game this weekend."

Mr Kennett has previously sung the praises of golliwogs, last year describing them as "the most repressed toys in society today".

He has 40 in his collection, including Jacko who was a present when he was born.

"They are a major part of my life and I love them," he told the Herald Sun.

"I don't intend to listen to those who have lost their sense of humour and seek to make a political correctness issue out of everything.

"I have a complete series of golliwog books to read to my grandchildren and I don't intend to abandon the things in my life that give me pleasure. I'm not hurting anyone and I am not committing any crime."

Mr Kennett said his Buddy would not be attending Sunday's match against Collingwood.

"I never take any golliwogs to the game."

Source: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/good-golly-jeff-kennett-is-at-it-again/news-story/51e70207699c29bb6c7d59c1b315cf11

[hujsh]

Racial issues aside...quite a strange hobby.

[angelopetraglia]

Racial issues aside...quite a strange hobby.

Indeed. A small window into the soul of the man.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Hi Jeemak

The cascading length of this article diminishes the journalist in stature when one considers the trifling points here-within.
Jeff had a go at humor with a player's wife on a footy trip regarding the style of her Jeans. Jeff declined to go on a fishing trip. In 2013 someone made a racial comment.
Ok fine, but that's far too many pixels, and smacks of moral outrage, which of course The R-Age is highly awarded for.

The age is just trying to politicize football before an election.
No, am not a fan of the Liberal party.
GD I think you are ignoring the fact that clearly the Riolies felt belittled by Kennett over the journey.
You opine it was just a joke but discrimination is judged not by intentions but by the victims' feelings.
Clearly Rioli is a better judge of that than you.

[bornadog]

GD I think you are ignoring the fact that clearly the Riolies felt belittled by Kennett over the journey.
You opine it was just a joke but discrimination is judged not by intentions but by the victims' feelings.
Clearly Rioli is a better judge of that than you.

Exactly, and it wasn't just that one issue, it was the last straw

[Ghost Dog]

GD I think you are ignoring the fact that clearly the Riolies felt belittled by Kennett over the journey.
You opine it was just a joke but discrimination is judged not by intentions but by the victims' feelings.
Clearly Rioli is a better judge of that than you.

Hi BorninDroopSt

FIY I did not ignore the fact that the couple felt slighted.
I understand they felt slighted. Teasing someone because of their ripped jeans is not discriminatory and I don't read the paper is article is claiming this. Rather, that this was a straw that broke the camel's back on top of a discriminatory remark made in 2013 and other personal factors.

And excuse me, my cultural background? judge me?
Well, that rather personal attack seems counter to the spirit of the forum, but if you wish.

Here it is. Jeff Kennett is unpopular and frankly I feel this is very justified.
But The R-Age is running an anti-liberal platform up to the election and the length of this article is way out of proportion to make it very obvious. Let's call it for what it is. And now Jake Niall is running a front page follow up. I mean please.

The R-age is the biggest peddler of petty moral outrage in the Australian media. Used to be my favourite paper. Is it a story, sure.

[hujsh]

Hi BorninDroopSt

FIY I did not ignore the fact that the couple felt slighted. Can you point out WHERE I said this?
I understand they felt slighted. I am to understand that this in itself was not a discriminatory remark from Kennett, rather a poor attempt at humor ( teasing someone because of their ripped jeans is not discriminatory ).
Rather, that this was a straw that broke the camel's back on top of a discriminatory remark made in 2013.

And excuse me, how do you know my culture background? or anything about me for that matter to judge me?

So, I feel a little slighted myself. Thanks for that.

Would you make that kind of joke to an Aboriginal woman you probably don't have a close relationship with, implying they're too poor to afford proper pants, or would you think better of it?

If you did and they expressed they were offended by it would you apologize or say 'sorry if you were offended'?

I think the fact that you presumably wouldn't do either of the things Kennett did says enough about how he handled himself.



I'd also mention the article claims "a string of events in previous years" not just the one from 2013. Which alludes to something going on culturally but we just have the 2 examples to go off.

I'll admit though that this incident alone probably wouldn't have caused Cyril to retire and makes for a good story with a clear villain. Good for selling papers.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

HI GD.
I have no idea what you are referring to re: cultural background.
I know you and me are/were ESL teachers and so I respect you so much.

[Raw Toast]

These matters can be hard to discuss and hard to process, but for what it's worth GD, I disagree very much with your take that this is a storm in a tea-cup that is being used by a newspaper for election politics.

I highly recommend this piece by Jack Latimore (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/can-t-you-afford-thread-the-trope-at-the-heart-of-cyril-rioli-s-retirement-20220401-p5aa44.html), an excellent First Nations journalist who happens to currently work at the Age (and I agree that the Age has declined greatly in standard over recent years).

Also, Joel Wilkinson has an important twitter thread about why the focus has been mainly on Kennett, when the Hawks leadership & coaching were also clearly problematic on this as well. (https://twitter.com/joelwilkinson/status/1510171058472914944)

[NoseBleed]

My personal opinion of Kennett is clouded by not just politics, but personal interaction in the local shops and on the roads, and my personal take is that I think he’s an arseclown.

That said, while the article paints a pretty poor picture of Hawthorn’s culture towards indigenous Australians, the actual remark at the airport comes across as a fashion statement and a generational clumsiness.

The woke nature of the world let’s those who chose outrage to find it in what is otherwise innocent, and my read of the article could find outrage in many of the statements if I chose.

Outrage is a dangerous game, nobody wins.

[jeemak]

Hi Jeemak

The cascading length of this article diminishes the journalist in stature when one considers the trifling points here-within.
Jeff had a go at humor with a player's wife on a footy trip regarding the style of her Jeans. Jeff declined to go on a fishing trip. In 2013 someone made a racial comment.
Ok fine, but that's far too many pixels, and smacks of moral outrage, which of course The R-Age is highly awarded for.

The age is just trying to politicize football before an election.
No, am not a fan of the Liberal party.

Hey GD! This one you can't pin on me.....I'd be annoyed you'd have figured out my master puppetry skills!

As for The Age, they're owned by Nine Fairfax and their Chairman is slippery Peter Costello. They haven't been a left wing rag for years and are possibly the biggest Coalition apologists and mollycoddlers of the papers, noting the others are just cheer leaders. But that's political, and we don't do that around here! :)


So Jee and EW are the same. Always knew it.;)

And we're also both SquirrelGrip.....which is making it difficult!


Nah GD, I know you're a decent fella. I just have a different opinion on this.

Jeff Kennett has never done anything but punch downwards, and in my opinion this is just true to type.

That explains why Brad Pitt keeps appearing when I'm not expecting him to.

Sprung!

[jeemak]

Jeff Kennett. Is anyone surprised? Do you remember this from 2011?

******

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/031a7caddc21ef75009bb8f429458883?width=1024

FORMER premier Jeff Kennett has once again courted controversy with his love of the golliwog.

The Hawthorn president has revealed the latest member of his golliwog collection wears a brown and gold uniform, is tall and thin and goes by the name of Buddy, after Hawks forward Lance "Buddy" Franklin.

"Buddy (Franklin) is long, tall and thin and I hope he is as proud of the golliwog as I am," Mr Kennett said when asked what Buddy Franklin's response would be to his namesake.

"They are a major part of my life and I love them," he said.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

"Every golliwog has a name. This one is in Hawthorn colours and he will be my Buddy. He joins Jacko, Mr King - named after boxing promoter Don King - and 40 other gollies in my collection."

But not everyone shares his love of the doll, and former Brisbane Lion Chris Johnson yesterday voiced concern about Mr Kennett's latest golly, which comes after a string of incidents involving racism in football.

"It's definitely a little bit inappropriate," he said.

"He probably should be thinking of the pressure he is putting on Franklin.

"I don't think it matters what colour you are, he is being disrespectful to one of his marquee players who should be focusing on a big game this weekend."

Mr Kennett has previously sung the praises of golliwogs, last year describing them as "the most repressed toys in society today".

He has 40 in his collection, including Jacko who was a present when he was born.

"They are a major part of my life and I love them," he told the Herald Sun.

"I don't intend to listen to those who have lost their sense of humour and seek to make a political correctness issue out of everything.

"I have a complete series of golliwog books to read to my grandchildren and I don't intend to abandon the things in my life that give me pleasure. I'm not hurting anyone and I am not committing any crime."

Mr Kennett said his Buddy would not be attending Sunday's match against Collingwood.

"I never take any golliwogs to the game."

Source: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/good-golly-jeff-kennett-is-at-it-again/news-story/51e70207699c29bb6c7d59c1b315cf11


Racial issues aside...quite a strange hobby.

I was going to post the same article and comment on how weird it all is, and how prejudiced his overall thinking has been for years (let's not forget his suggestion that gay men shouldn't be giving rub downs to footballers because.....well just because they can't control themselves or whatever).

The sooner the AFL world is rid of him the better.

[mjp]

The incident with Shannyn is a clear case of Kennett assuming a relationship that she did not believe existed.

HE thought he could joke around with her about her appearance...SHE did not believe they had a relationship of trust/friendship that would enable this.

Is that being racist or simply being a D*#&??? Well...it's probably the latter, but EVERYTHING about their relationship up-to-that point in time would clearly impact on how Shannyn interpreted things. And ultimately, how Cyril interpreted things when the story was relayed to him.

I think Kennett is mostly just being a D*#& in the story relayed in the article, BUT if the Rioli's perception was that it was racially based then it WAS.

As someone who coaches a LOT of indigenous players and regularly deals with their families, often they are justifiably suspicious of my motives when we first start working together....a few months down the line after regular communication and establishing a baseline of trust I find in most cases our communications can fall back to a more 'casual' level and - for example - I can poke fun at what they are wearing etc (and equally, they can and do poke fun at me). In some cases though, this doesn't happen and communications need to remain more 'formal'/polite.

Do I feel sorry for Kennett and Hawthorn? Well, yes and no. It's a very challenging situation and clubs with a very small number of indigenous players are always going to be lagging behind in cultural awareness...as for Cyril's comment that the "white blokes were always welcome to join us", that's a situation where he actually needed to take a bit of a look in the mirror and INVITE interaction rather than just saying 'everyone was welcome'...he knows that as well.

I don't know what to tell you. If you want to have a strong and positive relationship with the indigenous players then you have to really focus on it...

[Grantysghost]

Perfectly judged MJP.

I was thinking the same thing but down a different path.

I'm a bit of a war buff, the Nazis had two heils.

The formal and informal. One was the arm out straight like we can all visualise.

The other, a casual limp lift of familiarity.

You had to be part of the inner circle ie build trust to use the latter.

Jeff hadn't done that, and with the level of trust already at a low it was just a dumb move and I hope not deliberately pejorative but only Jeff would know that.

(nazi metaphor in no way a link to anyone involved).


https://youtu.be/57bNmzepNkM

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Psychopaths and sociopaths are strong words yet they walk amongst us as any teacher knows.
Also they are something of a spectrum or degrees.
They reach many postions of authority, including psychologists, doctors, psychiatrist and on a committe near you.
They can be amazing and helpful but just lack empathy.
They play the game of love thinking it is like believing in santa claus, a myth everyone goes along with.
Empaths can spot them when dealing with them personally.
I suggest this may have happened with the Riolies and Kennett.

[Ghost Dog]

The incident with Shannyn is a clear case of Kennett assuming a relationship that she did not believe existed.

HE thought he could joke around with her about her appearance...SHE did not believe they had a relationship of trust/friendship that would enable this.

Is that being racist or simply being a D*#&??? Well...it's probably the latter, but EVERYTHING about their relationship up-to-that point in time would clearly impact on how Shannyn interpreted things. And ultimately, how Cyril interpreted things when the story was relayed to him.

I think Kennett is mostly just being a D*#& in the story relayed in the article, BUT if the Rioli's perception was that it was racially based then it WAS.

As someone who coaches a LOT of indigenous players and regularly deals with their families, often they are justifiably suspicious of my motives when we first start working together....a few months down the line after regular communication and establishing a baseline of trust I find in most cases our communications can fall back to a more 'casual' level and - for example - I can poke fun at what they are wearing etc (and equally, they can and do poke fun at me). In some cases though, this doesn't happen and communications need to remain more 'formal'/polite.

Do I feel sorry for Kennett and Hawthorn? Well, yes and no. It's a very challenging situation and clubs with a very small number of indigenous players are always going to be lagging behind in cultural awareness...as for Cyril's comment that the "white blokes were always welcome to join us", that's a situation where he actually needed to take a bit of a look in the mirror and INVITE interaction rather than just saying 'everyone was welcome'...he knows that as well.

I don't know what to tell you. If you want to have a strong and positive relationship with the indigenous players then you have to really focus on it...

Hi MJP
Good points and fair ones except for one that's making me think for other examples.
Perhaps as a coach you have this perception and I know Paul Roos has said it in the past.
If someone perceives something as racist, it is?

With respect, In your view then, was Matt Rendell being racist ( leading to be fired )?

Making someone feel they are in the presence of racism ( which is unfortunate and an apology is warranted if you want to keep that relationship) is not quite the same as targeting someone with racist taunts or otherwise ( which is illegal ).

[bornadog]

The situation at Hawthorn is not just about the incident with the comments made about clothing. For Cyril and his wife, it was the last straw in a serious of things that happened at the club. If Cyril feels there was racial prejudice against him, then I believe Cyril.

Indigenous people have copped a lot over the years and it is no wonder they are very sensitive to anything that is said to them, no matter how innocent the comment may be.

[Twodogs]

Jeff Kennett being a massive, detestable piece of human garbage?

There's just no way anyone could have seen this coming.

I'm shocked it hasn't occurred to anyone else before now.

[GVGjr]

I think MJP has called it correctly. I have no political position with Kennett but a few years back I used to regularly see him on walks through the park near my place. He was always decked out in a Hawthorn polo's or t-shirts. Seeing me with a Bulldogs cap he stopped and said "How will those Doggies go this year?". After a brief chat where I introduced myself we went back to our walking.
Two days later we crossed paths again and I got a "Hi Gary" and the same a week or so later.
I think he has misread things with Rioli and it's going to sound silly given his years as a politician and exposure in public life but I think he is naive and socially awkward without an ability to read the room correctly. He's an OK guy and I doubt he meant too much by it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Grantysghost]

I think MJP has called it correctly. I have no political position with Kennett but a few years back I used to regularly see him on walks through the park near my place. He was always decked out in a Hawthorn polo's or t-shirts. Seeing me with a Bulldogs cap he stopped and said "How will those Doggies go this year?". After a brief chat where I introduced myself we went back to our walking.
Two days later we crossed paths again and I got a "Hi Gary" and the same a week or so later.
I think he has misread things with Rioli and it's going to sound silly given his years as a politician and exposure in public life but I think he is naive and socially awkward without an ability to read the room correctly. He's an OK guy and I doubt he meant too much by it.

Just my 2 cents.

The public perception often is in contrast to the person.

That's a decent insight.

This whole good guy v bad guy paradigm is such a trope, there are many shades of grey to everyone and unless you know someone; you don't know them.

Doesnt mean folks can't judge him on his public face, or his politics if they so choose of course. Personally I don't like to do that.

We can separate the person from their political leanings and connect harmoniously on many other levels I believe.

[GVGjr]

The public perception often is in contrast to the person.

That's a decent insight.

This whole good guy v bad guy paradigm is such a trope, there are many shades of grey to everyone and unless you know someone; you don't know them.

Doesnt mean folks can't judge him on his public face, or his politics if they so choose of course. Personally I don't like to do that.

We can separate the person from their political leanings and connect harmoniously on many other levels I believe.

If he really stuffs up then it needs to be called out with no exception but we need to understand that with his work with Beyond Blue he's certainly tried to do the right things for people. If he's being called out for racial insensitivity I get it but I also just don't see it in him at it's core.
If he is being called out for being socially awkward yep I could see that happening. We all get it wrong from time to time.

[mjp]

With respect, In your view then, was Matt Rendell being racist ( leading to be fired )?


Was Matt Rendell being racist?

Umm - how do I answer this? What he said was 100% a disgrace and everyone here would be sick of me going on about the draft issues experienced by players such as Sydney Stack over my time on this forum. But - and here's the BUT - what he was referring too was a societal problem rather than a race problem...Many commentators on the game have been lamenting the constant references to the (very expensive) private schools attended by so many of the games high draft picks - both the fact that a private school education seems to be a pre-requisite for top level picks (regardless of state) AND that the match-day commentators insist on mentioning it 1000000 times each day.

Rendell was referring to a situation relating to the challenges footy clubs face relocating - in particular, regional indigenous players to the big smoke AND integrating them into a professional sporting environment. What he was ultimately saying was that it's way easier to take a kid from a double income with both parents 'on the scene' who attends a private school and integrate them into the 'system' than relocate a potentially more talented player from a single parent environment in a regional area into the AFL. It is equally hard to integrate a low socio-economic non-indigenous player - particularly one from a single parent family into the AFL - but so many of those players (both examples) never come through the pathway because:

1/. They can't get to NAB League/WAFL/SANFL training due to transport issues.
2/. They are trying to hold down part-time jobs on top of school and have time pressures.
3/. They are often seen as ratbags/non-conformists as they don't always do the 'right' thing...the focus on 'good citizens' over 'talented players' has 100% gone too far.

I mean, back to Rendlell, he's right for so many reasons. But whereas once upon a time the AFL (and before that, VFL-WAFL-SANFL) clubs would just say 'stuff it' and take a chance, NOW they don't want to do it...why? Because back when they could say 'STUFF IT - let's role the dice' there were no worries about 'wasted' draft picks, contracts were limited to matchies (so if the player in question didn't play they got nothing) and if the player couldn't cope with life in the city, who cares? Let them go home and no harm, no foul. Some kid lands at West Perth (for example) from Kalgoorlie and doesn't make it? Who cares? He goes back to Kal with his tail between his legs in June and no-one ever knows he was there...these days, different scenario.

This to me is an absolute minefield that I'm not all that happy treading through but solutions like the one implemented by the Giants at Breakfast Point with the Lambert's effectively acting as surrogates to a whole swag of young kids regardless of background is one more clubs need to try and replicate...but the clubs would claim the softcap has put a stop to all that...has it? I actually don't know for sure but what I do know is there is less money available to be simply thrown around...

What's the answer? Hawthorn are trying by appointing the amazing Brady Gray as an ILO and trying to rebuild their relationship with their indigenous players/indigenous community but again, the soft cap...I know our club once had the brilliant Jason Mifsud in a similar role but he left to fulfill a BIGGER position in a regional area...how do we ensure our cultural health in these matters without someone like Jason at least providing some heavy support and consulting? Well, I doubt we do.

[Grantysghost]

If he really stuffs up then it needs to be called out with no exception but we need to understand that with his work with Beyond Blue he's certainly tried to do the right things for people. If he's being called out for racial insensitivity I get it but I also just don't see it in him at it's core.
If he is being called out for being socially awkward yep I could see that happening. We all get it wrong from time to time.

Totally agree that's a given.

[bornadog]

.I know our club once had the brilliant Jason Mifsud in a similar role but he left to fulfill a BIGGER position in a regional area...how do we ensure our cultural health in these matters without someone like Jason at least providing some heavy support and consulting? Well, I doubt we do.

I think you will find we have put alot of programmes into place to support our two indigenous players, plus we have the Nallei Jerring Koori Leadership Project which aims to support Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait islander young people, by providing opportunities through the Western Bulldogs as a way of encouraging leadership within the local Aboriginal community.

[mjp]

I think you will find we have put alot of programmes into place to support our two indigenous players.

We have "a LOT" of programmes for 2x players?

Without wanting to sound cynical I don't really know what that means. I know Jones is apparently exceedingly happy (I have no connection with Jamarra) but the players don't need a lot of programs...they need a stable and consistent support network outside of the leadership of the club.

I'm guessing the tribal leadership of Jamarra from the West of Victoria (apologies, my indigenous map of Australia isn't actually clear on which mob are from that territory) and the Noongar people of SW WA where Jones is from would be quite different...I'm unsure on the cultural implications of this (more my wife's specialty) but I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be a one size fits all solution.

Please understand BAD I'm not trying to criticise the club here (that is the opposite of my intention) but it's pretty typical of institutions to say they have a program in place when what the 'individuals' who should be accessing said program(s) have quite different needs/requirements.

[Mofra]

Please understand BAD I'm not trying to criticise the club here (that is the opposite of my intention) but it's pretty typical of institutions to say they have a program in place when what the 'individuals' who should be accessing said program(s) have quite different needs/requirements.
I don't think we're focussed on systems anymore, but are trying to get people with requisite cultural sensitivities in and around the club - Varcoe at a coaching level, CCP on a social level.

On Kennett: he's a 74 year old toff. It's quite possible he made a number of offensive comments over the years without realizing the gravity of what he was saying. That's not to excuse what he said, but obviously there are no systems (or inadequate systems) to pull someone up on their behavior at Hawthorn, and likely across the board in clubland.

It's exactly why ongoing focus and education are need, we're nowhere near "job done" on indigenous issues.

[bornadog]

I don't think we're focussed on systems anymore, but are trying to get people with requisite cultural sensitivities in and around the club - Varcoe at a coaching level, CCP on a social level.

On Kennett: he's a 74 year old toff. It's quite possible he made a number of offensive comments over the years without realizing the gravity of what he was saying. That's not to excuse what he said, but obviously there are no systems (or inadequate systems) to pull someone up on their behavior at Hawthorn, and likely across the board in clubland.

It's exactly why ongoing focus and education are need, we're nowhere near "job done" on indigenous issues.

Stuff like this contributed to Cyril's anger.


Much more troubling was the incident from a 2013 end of season trip (when Kennett wasn’t club president) when, according to Shannyn, a senior player asked teammates whether the partner of one Indigenous teammate was “also a boong”.

Cyril will not be going back to the club until Kennett is gone

[Ghost Dog]

These matters can be hard to discuss and hard to process, but for what it's worth GD, I disagree very much with your take that this is a storm in a tea-cup that is being used by a newspaper for election politics.

I highly recommend this piece by Jack Latimore (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/can-t-you-afford-thread-the-trope-at-the-heart-of-cyril-rioli-s-retirement-20220401-p5aa44.html), an excellent First Nations journalist who happens to currently work at the Age (and I agree that the Age has declined greatly in standard over recent years).

Also, Joel Wilkinson has an important twitter thread about why the focus has been mainly on Kennett, when the Hawks leadership & coaching were also clearly problematic on this as well. (https://twitter.com/joelwilkinson/status/1510171058472914944)

Thanks Raw Toast. I will have a look.
Like GVGjr, the article in Wilson makes no consideration for Kennett's considerable advocacy for depression with Beyond blue.
Not that I can recall anyway. Do we all feel it shouldn't be mentioned or is not worth mentioning? This is a good point from Gary.

Wilson is all about divisive angles and vitriol.
There is no counterbalance ( note the LB V Tom Morrison affair ).

Looking at the article, with follow up from Jake Niall and sitting beside an article on Morrison, how he is supposed to have slighted someone for their Lebanese background years ago, and an election so close, it's hard to agree with you RT, but variety of views is good for the brain.

[Ghost Dog]

Hey GD! This one you can't pin on me.....I'd be annoyed you'd have figured out my master puppetry skills!

As for The Age, they're owned by Nine Fairfax and their Chairman is slippery Peter Costello. They haven't been a left wing rag for years and are possibly the biggest Coalition apologists and mollycoddlers of the papers, noting the others are just cheer leaders. But that's political, and we don't do that around here! :)



And we're also both SquirrelGrip.....which is making it difficult!



Sprung!

Hi Jeemak,

It's interesting, when you look at The Age and how it runs a story compared to papers also under its banner in other states, you get to see how they play it. They are certainly the puppet masters. Ka-ching. Click.
This is in part due to the death of print and the need to keep those clicks coming. now that print advertising is ka-put.
Who owns the bank balance is a different thing. Sometimes you can play it left. ( just to get those clicks ) and when it counts you play it the other way. For one year I decided to keep every negative article on China I could find in The Age. I gave up after a while. Easier just to keep them all!

[EasternWest]

I gotta say GD, defending Jeff Kennett's honour is not the hill I saw you dying on.

[Grantysghost]

I gotta say GD, defending Jeff Kennett's honour is not the hill I saw you dying on.

He's shovelling soil in your face EW xD

https://i.postimg.cc/dVCYC51x/Screenshot-20220403-204044-Chrome.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Ghost Dog]

Would you make that kind of joke to an Aboriginal woman you probably don't have a close relationship with, implying they're too poor to afford proper pants, or would you think better of it?

If you did and they expressed they were offended by it would you apologize or say 'sorry if you were offended'?

I think the fact that you presumably wouldn't do either of the things Kennett did says enough about how he handled himself.



I'd also mention the article claims "a string of events in previous years" not just the one from 2013. Which alludes to something going on culturally but we just have the 2 examples to go off.

I'll admit though that this incident alone probably wouldn't have caused Cyril to retire and makes for a good story with a clear villain. Good for selling papers.

Howdy Hujsh

No, that is certainly not a joke I would make to a first-nations person or anyone but a close friend for that matter.

Was just on the phone to my Dad. We were discussing the plight of refugees.
Some of these people have been in detention for ten years. TEN YEARS, waiting for their applications to be heard, incarcerated, their freedoms taken away.


"The Age accepts that not all members of the leadership group were aware of the incident at the time."
Rioli is one of the most gifted players I can remember. Was his displeasure fully voiced? Seems not all the leaders knew about it.

If only Caroline Wilson would devote such editorial zeal ( 2700 words of it ) to our national racist shame, which is our treatment of refugees. Come off it. If these people in detention were Ukrainians there is no way they would have to languish in detention camps for 10 years. Issues like this may be a story, but 2700 words? there are bigger things going on in the world that deserve front-page attention.

[Ghost Dog]

I gotta say GD, defending Jeff Kennett's honour is not the hill I saw you dying on.

Hi East and W.
I'm not, , am not a fan of Jeff Kennett, or his honor.
( the cartoonists miss him dearly.)
What I would like to defend is accuracy and fairness. If this was a big issue as it is now claimed, would the whole leadership group have known about it? If Jeff had done something trump, I could say up to 3000 words would be justified.

"human piece of garbage" well, ok then ( hope I never get on your bad side Easty...)

Anyway he will finish in June. Election coming, get ready for more. Who will have offended who next?

One doesn't die on a hill unless you are always unwilling to move to another. It's always good to get the views of others, yours too.

[angelopetraglia]

"I'm not being racist when I say this, but when I saw some of the footage, the people who are making judgements while they wear these authoritative coats are not people who appear to have a great knowledge of our game," he said then on 3AW.

Kennett also used the phrase "new arrivals" in that interview.

The AFL and several senior officials at other clubs were furious with Kennett during this period, particularly when he initially refused to apologise.

Source: https://www.afl.com.au/news/734638

[angelopetraglia]

"Kennett was one of the prominent chorus of conservative white male voices trying to gaslight Goodes about whether the booing was driven by racism. The booing, Kennett said, was “out of envy, not hate”. Goodes had brought it all on himself, because “as good a player as he is, he is provocative”.

In his regular Herald Sun column, Kennnett bemoaned the way political correctness was robbing Australia of it’s larrikins. Goodes, in Kennett’s book, was no larrikin."

Source: https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/06/19/jeff-kennetts-scandal-comments/

[angelopetraglia]

Jeff has form. Lots of form. I can see how the ripped jeans comment taken in complete isolation can be see as some time of overaction. However, when looked through the lens of all the things he has said and done over a period of time you can see more of who he really is. You keep peeling back another layer of the onion.

After the Cain-Kirner Governments almost destroyed this once great state, I had a lot of time for what Jeff did to make Victoria great again albeit he used a blunt instrument at times and pissed a lot of people off (and he did hurt a lot of people). However, you can't argue with the actual economic results over that period of time and the springboard it provided for the Bracks and Brumby Governments. However, as more time has passed, I have less and less time for Jeff the person.

I can not get that image of him holding the Buddy doll out of my head. How could any reasonable person believe that not only it would be a good idea to have a midnight black golliwog named after Buddy, but to tell the world and then defend it. To actually rub our noses in it and talk about pollical correctness. Look at the image of Jeff and this doll. Is this a reasonable person?

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_1%2C$multiply_1.4066%2C$ratio_1.777778%2C$width_546%2C $x_62%2C$y_9/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/61ef82faa6be1ca733567b275a1a5636b4117913

[bornadog]

Hi East and W.
I'm not, , am not a fan of Jeff Kennett, or his honor.
( the cartoonists miss him dearly.)
What I would like to defend is accuracy and fairness. If this was a big issue as it is now claimed, would the whole leadership group have known about it? If Jeff had done something trump, I could say up to 3000 words would be justified.

"human piece of garbage" well, ok then ( hope I never get on your bad side Easty...)

Anyway he will finish in June. Election coming, get ready for more. Who will have offended who next?

One doesn't die on a hill unless you are always unwilling to move to another. It's always good to get the views of others, yours too.


GD, this is a major issue, it is racism. Cyril refuses to have anything to do with Hawks and the club yesterday, has issued an apology.

Can you just accept that and stop trying to pick holes in the article.

[Grantysghost]

Jeff has form. Lots of form. I can see how the ripped jeans comment taken in complete isolation can be see as some time of overaction. However, when looked through the lens of all the things he has said and done over a period of time you can see more of who he really is. You keep peeling back another layer of the onion.

After the Cain-Kirner Governments almost destroyed this once great state, I had a lot of time for what Jeff did to make Victoria great again albeit he used a blunt instrument at times and pissed a lot of people off (and he did hurt a lot of people). However, you can't argue with the actual economic results over that period of time and the springboard it provided for the Bracks and Brumby Governments. However, as more time has passed, I have less and less time for Jeff the person.

I can not get that image of him holding the Buddy doll out of my head. How could any reasonable person believe that not only it would be a good idea to have a midnight black golliwog named after Buddy, but to tell the world and then defend it. To actually rub our noses in it and talk about pollical correctness. Look at the image of Jeff and this doll. Is this a reasonable person?

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_1%2C$multiply_1.4066%2C$ratio_1.777778%2C$width_546%2C $x_62%2C$y_9/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/61ef82faa6be1ca733567b275a1a5636b4117913

Its very odd that’s for sure !

But he’s done some amazing work with beyond blue so I guess you probably need to mention that too to be balanced.

I don’t get the doll what on earth was the context?? I have never seen that.

[angelopetraglia]

Its very odd that’s for sure !

But he’s done some amazing work with beyond blue so I guess you probably need to mention that too to be balanced.

I don’t get the doll what on earth was the context?? I have never seen that.

FORMER premier Jeff Kennett has once again courted controversy with his love of the golliwog.

The Hawthorn president has revealed the latest member of his golliwog collection wears a brown and gold uniform, is tall and thin and goes by the name of Buddy, after Hawks forward Lance "Buddy" Franklin.

"Buddy (Franklin) is long, tall and thin and I hope he is as proud of the golliwog as I am," Mr Kennett said when asked what Buddy Franklin's response would be to his namesake.

"They are a major part of my life and I love them," he said.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

"Every golliwog has a name. This one is in Hawthorn colours and he will be my Buddy. He joins Jacko, Mr King - named after boxing promoter Don King - and 40 other gollies in my collection."

[Grantysghost]

FORMER premier Jeff Kennett has once again courted controversy with his love of the golliwog.

The Hawthorn president has revealed the latest member of his golliwog collection wears a brown and gold uniform, is tall and thin and goes by the name of Buddy, after Hawks forward Lance "Buddy" Franklin.

"Buddy (Franklin) is long, tall and thin and I hope he is as proud of the golliwog as I am," Mr Kennett said when asked what Buddy Franklin's response would be to his namesake.

"They are a major part of my life and I love them," he said.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

"Every golliwog has a name. This one is in Hawthorn colours and he will be my Buddy. He joins Jacko, Mr King - named after boxing promoter Don King - and 40 other gollies in my collection."

Thats bonkers.

I mean I get previous generations had those dolls, my mum did for eg but crikey we are all educated around how they aren’t appropriate these days.

[angelopetraglia]

Thats bonkers.

100%

That was 2011. The world had changed by 2011. This isn't us judging some persons actions in the 1880s or the 1920s or even the 1970s from today's ethical and moral standards (which is not a very fair thing to do as we would basically cancel everyone from our history). This was very wrong in 2011 and he defended it.

[Grantysghost]

100%

That was 2011. The world had changed by 2011. This isn't us judging some persons actions in the 1880s or the 1920s or even the 1970s from today's ethical and moral standards (which is not a very fair thing to do as we would basically cancel everyone from our history). This was very wrong in 2011 and he defended it.
Almost child like.

[hujsh]

Howdy Hujsh

No, that is certainly not a joke I would make to a first-nations person or anyone but a close friend for that matter.

Was just on the phone to my Dad. We were discussing the plight of refugees.
Some of these people have been in detention for ten years. TEN YEARS, waiting for their applications to be heard, incarcerated, their freedoms taken away.


"The Age accepts that not all members of the leadership group were aware of the incident at the time."
Rioli is one of the most gifted players I can remember. Was his displeasure fully voiced? Seems not all the leaders knew about it.

If only Caroline Wilson would devote such editorial zeal ( 2700 words of it ) to our national racist shame, which is our treatment of refugees. Come off it. If these people in detention were Ukrainians there is no way they would have to languish in detention camps for 10 years. Issues like this may be a story, but 2700 words? there are bigger things going on in the world that deserve front-page attention.

I agree with all that. But we can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. I don't know how to prioritise calling out a culture or racism/prejudice against first nations people vs our treatment of refugees. I think we have to do both. Failure to do one doesn't mean doing the other is wrong.

Ultimately I think nothing will change from an article about our treatment of refugees. People know by now if they're engaged enough to find out. Maybe something might come from this article. Probably ultimately nothing though just some shame towards an individual.

[jeemak]

Its very odd that’s for sure !

But he’s done some amazing work with beyond blue so I guess you probably need to mention that too to be balanced.

I don’t get the doll what on earth was the context?? I have never seen that.

He also said during his time post politics and as chair of that organisation to a private group forum a relative of mine attended that he believed people who bite their nails are weak spirited (or something similar) and lack self control.

And then there's this:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/gay-footy-trainer-drops-case-against-kennett-20090908-ffb2.html

"The club felt that once this had been pointed out and you had this gentleman there who was obviously close to young men - massaging young men - it ran an unnecessary risk, and that's why it decided it was best that he not perform those duties again. So the club was trying to do the right thing," Mr Kennett said at the time.

He's an ignorant twat with a megaphone larger than he should have and it's about time the shit he's peddled for years comes home to roost and he's shamed publicly for it.

[Happy Days]

I’ve typed out longer comments but this all just makes me mad as hell, so I’ll just say that the entire western world needs to stop doing that thing where we shift the onus onto people of colour to make us feel better about ourselves when we do something racist.

Jeff Kennett is a horrible bastard and this gruff pigheaded garbage sums him and his “stop being poor and offended” approach to politics and life.

[EasternWest]

I’ve typed out longer comments but this all just makes me mad as hell, so I’ll just say that the entire western world needs to stop doing that thing where we shift the onus onto people of colour to make us feel better about ourselves when we do something racist.

Jeff Kennett is a horrible bastard and this gruff pigheaded garbage sums him and his “stop being poor and offended” approach to politics and life.

Every word of this is the truth. Testify.

[bornadog]

Every word of this is the truth. Testify.

Couldn't agree more

[Sedat]

When race is injected into every single part of life, our individual actions and behaviours become secondary to our immutable birth characteristics - nothing good in society ever comes from that mindset.

Compared to previous generations, racism is on life support in this country - I know this is an unpopular opinion, and contradicts the media narrative, but it is true. It will never be 100% extinguished but as a collective we are so much more understanding and respectful of the differences in cultures - we are absolutely trending in the right direction and will collectively continue to do so, which is a wonderful thing. The people amplifying racism in the media are desperate to keep the 'racism is out of control' narrative going so as to create further chaos and division.

I have no opinion on this particular issue - I wasn't directly involved/impacted and I do not trust words/intentions of the author of the article. If there is an issue between the parties involved, it is their business and theirs alone to resolve it (or to choose not to). As an aside, I have completely disengaged with modern media because of their dishonesty and deliberate intention to poison the mind and the soul of all of us. Life is far more affirming without this poison in your life.

[jeemak]

When race is injected into every single part of life, our actions and behaviours become secondry to our inmutable birth characteristics - nothing good in society ever comes from that mindset.

Compared to previous genertions, racism is on life support in this country - I know this is an unpopular opinion, and contradicts the media narrative, but it is true. It will never be 100% extinguished but as a collective we are so much more understanding and respectful of the differences in cultures - we are absolutely trending in the right direction and will collectively continue to do so, which is a wonderful thing. The people amplifying racism in the media are desperate to keep the 'racism is out of control' narrative going so as to create further chaos and division.

I have no opinion on this particular issue - I wasn't directly involved/impacted and I do not trust words/intentions the author of the article. If there is an issue between the parties involved, it is their business and theirs alone to resolve it (or to choose not to). As an aside, I have completely disengaged with modern media because of their dishonesty and deliberate intention to poison the mind and the soul of all of us. Life is far more affirming without this poison in your life.

You've never expressed dissatisfaction with media before......is everything OK?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Jeff has form. Lots of form. I can see how the ripped jeans comment taken in complete isolation can be see as some time of overaction. However, when looked through the lens of all the things he has said and done over a period of time you can see more of who he really is. You keep peeling back another layer of the onion.

After the Cain-Kirner Governments almost destroyed this once great state, I had a lot of time for what Jeff did to make Victoria great again albeit he used a blunt instrument at times and pissed a lot of people off (and he did hurt a lot of people). However, you can't argue with the actual economic results over that period of time and the springboard it provided for the Bracks and Brumby Governments. However, as more time has passed, I have less and less time for Jeff the person.

I can not get that image of him holding the Buddy doll out of my head. How could any reasonable person believe that not only it would be a good idea to have a midnight black golliwog named after Buddy, but to tell the world and then defend it. To actually rub our noses in it and talk about pollical correctness. Look at the image of Jeff and this doll. Is this a reasonable person?

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_1%2C$multiply_1.4066%2C$ratio_1.777778%2C$width_546%2C $x_62%2C$y_9/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/61ef82faa6be1ca733567b275a1a5636b4117913

Yeah nah to your political reckoning of Kennett.
Sorry but Kennett generated almighty income from selling state assets including the technical schools and all their irreplaceable technology.
And forced schools to sack teachers.

[Jeanette54]

With reference to the "jeans gate" incident, I cannot conceive how that could blow-out to have the major incident it has become. Most people would have told Jeff to get stuffed (then and there) and moved on. I have no doubt that it was a Dad joke, misunderstood and poorly received.

The whole world is all too ready to see offense where it may not be intended.

[EasternWest]

With reference to the "jeans gate" incident, I cannot conceive how that could blow-out to have the major incident it has become. Most people would have told Jeff to get stuffed (then and there) and moved on. I have no doubt that it was a Dad joke, misunderstood and poorly received.

The whole world is all too ready to see offense where it may not be intended.

Lol, what a take. I'm surprised you didn't chuck in some "woke" or "virtue signaling" just to hit a few more tropes on the way through.

I'm pretty sick of the "why don't they just get over it" mob and their imposition of their opinions on other people's lived experience.

[Mofra]

With reference to the "jeans gate" incident, I cannot conceive how that could blow-out to have the major incident it has become. Most people would have told Jeff to get stuffed (then and there) and moved on. I have no doubt that it was a Dad joke, misunderstood and poorly received.

The whole world is all too ready to see offense where it may not be intended.
It doesn't, nor does the article suggest that.
It was the final straw after a long period of behaviour.

[The bulldog tragician]

The whole thing was an example of what I understand as casual racism. If Kennett makes the comment to those of us without indigenous heritage we roll our eyes and think he’s just a stupid old fart who doesn’t understand modern day fashio. To those who’ve had a background of race- based discrimination and been stigmatised and lived in poverty it will have different layers of meaning and revive all the awful experiences of generations before. We’d all benefit from learning and thinking more about that and it’s not a bad rule of thumb for life in general that if someone perceives a slight in something we’ve said, to understand why that might be so.

[The bulldog tragician]

Should also add that when the jeans comment comes from someone who proudly boasts about a golliwog collection, it is likely to be more insulting.

[Bulldog4life]

Every word of this is the truth. Testify.

Now you are pinching quotes off Devon Dudley EW.

[Ghost Dog]

The whole thing was an example of what I understand as casual racism. If Kennett makes the comment to those of us without indigenous heritage we roll our eyes and think he’s just a stupid old fart who doesn’t understand modern day fashio. To those who’ve had a background of race- based discrimination and been stigmatised and lived in poverty it will have different layers of meaning and revive all the awful experiences of generations before. We’d all benefit from learning and thinking more about that and it’s not a bad rule of thumb for life in general that if someone perceives a slight in something we’ve said, to understand why that might be so.

Hi B-Tragician. Thanks for the view.

You mention those who have lived in poverty. We all know that poverty is a broad situation.

Can see American society is becoming polarized and fragmented by social media and news corporations plying this issue. ( Thanks Rupert )

Western Bulldogs take their colors from the Union Jack, as I understand it, as we do the British Bulldog. Are we going to change that too? If it really is invasion day, and a purge where one culture is held up above all others, go all the way. Let's become the Western Bullfrogs.

One authority gets to measure who has the most past-pain and force cultural sensitivities on people in a public court ( Caroline Wilson usually). But of course that authority is almost always not aboriginal are they? People need to be willing to sit down and sort these things out, and not let Corporate media and outrage positioning divide us. I've heard indigenous leaders give a similar view.

[EasternWest]

Now you are pinching quotes off Devon Dudley EW.

Well he's obviously a smart and handsome man.

[Jeanette54]

Should also add that when the jeans comment comes from someone who proudly boasts about a golliwog collection, it is likely to be more insulting.

I doubt any of Jeff's golliwogs have torn jeans, not even Ralph Lauren polo pony ones. Its a generational thing.

[hujsh]

When race is injected into every single part of life, our individual actions and behaviours become secondary to our immutable birth characteristics - nothing good in society ever comes from that mindset.

Compared to previous generations, racism is on life support in this country - I know this is an unpopular opinion, and contradicts the media narrative, but it is true. It will never be 100% extinguished but as a collective we are so much more understanding and respectful of the differences in cultures - we are absolutely trending in the right direction and will collectively continue to do so, which is a wonderful thing. The people amplifying racism in the media are desperate to keep the 'racism is out of control' narrative going so as to create further chaos and division.

I have no opinion on this particular issue - I wasn't directly involved/impacted and I do not trust words/intentions the author of the article. If there is an issue between the parties involved, it is their business and theirs alone to resolve it (or to choose not to). As an aside, I have completely disengaged with modern media because of their dishonesty and deliberate intention to poison the mind and the soul of all of us. Life is far more affirming without this poison in your life.

It's becomes less acceptable in broader culture sure but are things really that different now with stories about 'African Gangs' compared to the 90s and similar stories about Vietnamese people?

We're also rather fine connoisseurs of casual racism in this country. "The most comfortably racist place" John Oliver had ever been. Not the most racist, just the most comfortable with our racism. I think that somewhat holds true nearly a decade later.

[GVGjr]

Looks like Kennett will go quietly and he needs to.
Not sure why the Hawks are resisting an inquiry. Get it done and deal with the findings.

[Twodogs]

Hi B-Tragician. Thanks for the view.

You mention those who have lived in poverty. We all know that poverty is a broad situation.

Can see American society is becoming polarized and fragmented by social media and news corporations plying this issue. ( Thanks Rupert )

Western Bulldogs take their colors from the Union Jack, as I understand it, as we do the British Bulldog. Are we going to change that too? If it really is invasion day, and a purge where one culture is held up above all others, go all the way. Let's become the Western Bullfrogs.

One authority gets to measure who has the most past-pain and force cultural sensitivities on people in a public court ( Caroline Wilson usually). But of course that authority is almost always not aboriginal are they? People need to be willing to sit down and sort these things out, and not let Corporate media and outrage positioning divide us. I've heard indigenous leaders give a similar view.


The colours come from the French flag. Around the time the locals were first starting a footy club, Louis-Napoléon, the Prince Imperial of France was killed fighting for the British in the Zulu wars. The early Footscray football club adopted the colours of the tricouloer in his honour. The club was also called the Prince Imperials for a while after.


In his recorded reminisces, Charlie Lovett provides an answer as to why the name

Prince Imperial was chosen and his memoirs provides the strongest link to the past.

According to Lovett, the club was:

named after the Prince Imperial of France, who was serving with the

British Army in Africa in the Zulu War and during a scouting expedition was

killed by the Zulus. His death caused a great shock to the British nation as he was

a very popular officer in the British Army and as brave as he was popular. Out of

respect to him we named the first football club the Prince Imperial.



From
https://vuir.vu.edu.au/40552/


Arthur, Darren (2019) Foundation Narratives in Rowing, Cricket and Australian Rules Football: Sport in Footscray 1859-1886. Research Master thesis, Victoria University

[Grantysghost]

The colours come from the French flag. Around the time the locals were first starting a footy club, Louis-Napoléon, the Prince Imperial of France was killed fighting for the British in the Zulu wars. The early Footscray football club adopted the colours of the tricouloer in his honour. The club was also called the Prince Imperials for a while after.


In his recorded reminisces, Charlie Lovett provides an answer as to why the name

Prince Imperial was chosen and his memoirs provides the strongest link to the past.

According to Lovett, the club was:

named after the Prince Imperial of France, who was serving with the

British Army in Africa in the Zulu War and during a scouting expedition was

killed by the Zulus. His death caused a great shock to the British nation as he was

a very popular officer in the British Army and as brave as he was popular. Out of

respect to him we named the first football club the Prince Imperial.



From
https://vuir.vu.edu.au/40552/


Arthur, Darren (2019) Foundation Narratives in Rowing, Cricket and Australian Rules Football: Sport in Footscray 1859-1886. Research Master thesis, Victoria University

So our colours are for a French guy, helping the English invade and suppress an ancient native culture in Southern Africa?

https://media.giphy.com/media/iAYupOdWXQy5a4nVGk/giphy.gif

We should've went with these.

https://i.postimg.cc/zf5mj9Lt/Screenshot-20220405-080948-Chrome.jpg (https://postimages.org/)


His death caused a great shock to the British nation as he was

a very popular officer in the British Army and as brave as he was popular. Out of

respect to him we named the first football club the Prince Imperial.

Actually he was forced out of France as a young man after the Prussians defeated them in the Franco-Prussian war (1870); his family fleeing to England.

Caused issues but Queen Victoria vouched for him. He was the only heir to the throne, albeit a lame one as his father was removed from power following the war.

Against everyone's better advice he talked his way into going to Africa to see some action and whilst out sketching from a high point went down to a river to get some water despite scouts warning they were Zulu in the area.

They ended up being attacked and he fell trying to mount his horse in the scramble to escape and was set upon and killed.

Historically significant as it ended the Napoleonic line /empire however there were still Bonapartes around in France; just no one with enough status to be able to restore the dynasty.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So our colours are for a French guy, helping the English invade and suppress an ancient native culture in Southern Africa?

https://media.giphy.com/media/iAYupOdWXQy5a4nVGk/giphy.gif

Yikes..when you parse it like that.... Western Bullfrogs it is then.

[Twodogs]

So our colours are for a French guy, helping the English invade and suppress an ancient native culture in Southern Africa?

https://media.giphy.com/media/iAYupOdWXQy5a4nVGk/giphy.gif

We should've went with these.

https://i.postimg.cc/zf5mj9Lt/Screenshot-20220405-080948-Chrome.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



Actually he was forced out of France as a young man after the Prussians defeated them in the Franco-Prussian war (1870); his family fleeing to England.

Caused issues but Queen Victoria vouched for him. He was the only heir to the throne, albeit a lame one as his father was removed from power following the war.

Against everyone's better advice he talked his way into going to Africa to see some action and whilst out sketching from a high point went down to a river to get some water despite scouts warning they were Zulu in the area.

They ended up being attacked and he fell trying to mount his horse in the scramble to escape and was set upon and killed.

Historically significant as it ended the Napoleonic line /empire however there were still Bonapartes around in France; just no one with enough status to be able to restore the dynasty.

Yeah I remember reading that he ignored advice from his company and it left him exposed to the sortie from the Zulu warriors.



The quote I've used is from Charlie Lovett (from Darren Arthur's thesis on the early history of sport in Footscray-i recommend reading it, it's fascinating) who was a vital figure in the early history of the club. He was the guy who got us into the VFA by going around the town and selling enough memberships for us to qualify for admission. Basically if it weren't for him doing that back in 188ty whatever (nobody can be definitively sure exactly what year it was. If there was one thing they were worse at than playing footy back then it was keeping records) there would be no Footscray or Western Bulldogs football club now.

[Grantysghost]

Yeah I remember reading that he ignored advice from his company and it left him exposed to the sortie from the Zulu warriors.



The quote I've used is from Charlie Lovett (from Darren Arthur's thesis on the early history of sport in Footscray-i recommend reading it, it's fascinating) who was a vital figure in the early history of the club. He was the guy who got us into the VFA by going around the town and selling enough memberships for us to qualify for admission. Basically if it weren't for him doing that back in 188ty whatever (nobody can be definitively sure exactly what year it was. If there was one thing they were worse at than playing footy back then it was keeping records) there would be no Footscray or Western Bulldogs football club now.

I love history so this was right up my alley. Fascinating stuff. I never knew about the Prince Imperial, so now I realise why Prince Imperial uses the name Prince Imperial ! (say that sentence 3 times fast).

[Twodogs]

I love history so this was right up my alley. Fascinating stuff. I never knew about the Prince Imperial, so now I realise why Prince Imperial uses the name Prince Imperial ! (say that sentence 3 times fast).

I knew that Belgravia and Prince Imperials and a few more junior clubs had combined to form the senior Footscray football club but I hadn't known about the St John's club that preceded them all until I read Arthur's thesis.


There's some great stories in his work.

[jeemak]

So we all hate the Zulus now?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So we all hate the Zulus now?

Yep.. that's the main takeaway.. nailed it as usual Jee..;)

[Grantysghost]

So we all hate the Zulus now?

Ha - no comment.

This really went off thread in such a wonderful way.

Jeff would like the Zulus I assume with his proclivity for collecting African themed dolls. (back on thread).

[Twodogs]

Ha - no comment.

This really went off thread in such a wonderful way.

Jeff would like the Zulus I assume with his proclivity for collecting African themed dolls. (back on thread).

It only took me one post and we were in Africa 150 years ago!

I've got a talent for this sort of thing...

[Ghost Dog]

The colours come from the French flag. Around the time the locals were first starting a footy club, Louis-Napoléon, the Prince Imperial of France was killed fighting for the British in the Zulu wars. The early Footscray football club adopted the colours of the tricouloer in his honour. The club was also called the Prince Imperials for a while after.


In his recorded reminisces, Charlie Lovett provides an answer as to why the name

Prince Imperial was chosen and his memoirs provides the strongest link to the past.

According to Lovett, the club was:

named after the Prince Imperial of France, who was serving with the

British Army in Africa in the Zulu War and during a scouting expedition was

killed by the Zulus. His death caused a great shock to the British nation as he was

a very popular officer in the British Army and as brave as he was popular. Out of

respect to him we named the first football club the Prince Imperial.



From
https://vuir.vu.edu.au/40552/


Arthur, Darren (2019) Foundation Narratives in Rowing, Cricket and Australian Rules Football: Sport in Footscray 1859-1886. Research Master thesis, Victoria University

Thanks for that TD, keeper of lore. Well the Bulldog is a pretty British Symbol, and Imperials and so forth. But you take my point.
The Age, again today, front page, and yet why is the picture is about Kennett?
Get Cyril's picture on there. Let him write his own story and let's hear indigenous stories.
But instead it keeps becoming about Jeff. Because it’s an election year! If it were any other president it would be a club culture issue. But now it is a Jeff issue.

I understand Cyril is upset about the treatment of his wife by Jeff. Someone said something in 2013.
But right now, what I see are people only eating because we are being donated food, and that's the situation for much of 26 million people.
Think about it. ( I’m fine, neighbors keep donating me food, I have about 30 eggs ) That's the entire population of Australia dependent on bags of random vegetables handed out by the government.
And if you take Africa, that's the situation for much of the world every day. What am I going to eat today?

" Australia is one of the most racist places in the world" - You mean, more racist than here? When in 2020, so many Africans in Guangzhou ( only Africans, not others, get it? ) were being kicked out of their accommodation onto the street, to the point African embassies had to intervene and protest. Drivers would turn around if they saw a foreigner had called them in Didi and I couldn't get anywhere for weeks. You mean, more racist than that?

"Something is racist if you feel it is". Well, good luck with that. You may never learn a foreign language, never enjoy living in another culture without being offended every other day.

How many weeks is this going to be front page news?
If Caroline Wilson wanted to be an elder statesmen then sponsor a media event where you bring them together.

Sure it's a story, Cyril doesn't want to go to Hawks parties. He is indigenious and we all regret the treatment of our Australians, ongoing incidents. And yet the story keeps going back to Jeff. Storm in a tea cup. Age politicization ( if it isn't show Cyril! it's about him)

The media always likes to hold aboriginal people at arms length as a way of controlling their narrative.
For this reason I’d rather Mangrook tell this story than Wilson. I'm sure they have something much more meaningful to contribute about actual football life. Anyway, other things to deal with now, like growing mushrooms in my apartment.

[jeemak]

GD have you considered The Age might be running this as front page news in order to distract readers from the train wreck that is Scott Morrison and his government (internet search Friendlyjordies - The Prayer Room as another example of what's going on but isn't being reported) given they're already lagging in the poles, rather than it being a tenuous link to Kennett's ties with the Liberal party and putting negative press onto him to try and swing votes Labor's way?

Nine owns Fairfax now. The chair is Peter Costello. They don't and haven't done favours for the Labor party for a very very long time.

It would be great to hear from Cyril, but if he doesn't want to speak then that's his choice.

[hujsh]

" Australia is one of the most racist places in the world" - You mean, more racist than here? When in 2020, so many Africans in Guangzhou ( only Africans, not others, get it? ) were being kicked out of their accommodation onto the street, to the point African embassies had to intervene and protest. Drivers would turn around if they saw a foreigner had called them in Didi and I couldn't get anywhere for weeks. You mean, more racist than that?

Is this from my comment? Because (as I took care to point out) the quote was about how comfortable we are with our racism, not how racist we are.

[EasternWest]

GD you've lost the plot on this one mate.

Whataboutism manifest.

It's possible to care about multiple things at once.

Anyway, still love you mate. Hope you're keeping well and safe.

[Ghost Dog]

GD have you considered The Age might be running this as front page news in order to distract readers from the train wreck that is Scott Morrison and his government (internet search Friendlyjordies - The Prayer Room as another example of what's going on but isn't being reported) given they're already lagging in the poles, rather than it being a tenuous link to Kennett's ties with the Liberal party and putting negative press onto him to try and swing votes Labor's way?

Nine owns Fairfax now. The chair is Peter Costello. They don't and haven't done favours for the Labor party for a very very long time.

It would be great to hear from Cyril, but if he doesn't want to speak then that's his choice.

Cut scene to Fairfax board room.
"Right guys coming up to election, we need maximum clicks."
Keen junior journalist " How about we really go after Jeff on this Rioli, the left leaning Victorians hate him, and he doesn't matter to us anymore".Good idea! ok great. We can get maximum outrage on this one, and keep our agenda bubbling along.

Have you ever noticed how the same company keeps different plates spinning in different states?
Same stories, different angles depending on how they want to tailor it to the audience.
It's all about clicks and then, working where it counts.


GD you've lost the plot on this one mate.

Whataboutism manifest.

It's possible to care about multiple things at once.

Anyway, still love you mate. Hope you're keeping well and safe.

Thanks ED / Hujsh. Yes I am ok.

The Australian spin media divides people and makes it harder to reconcile, not easier.
I haven't seen any points here that make me think otherwise.

Hujsh, I just disagree.
Australia has casual racism and it deserves to be called out, yes. I've been all over Australia too and seen it, heard it.
I've spent time trying to help Indian guys get jobs, as soon as people see their name they get ignored.
I've taught Afghans in Corio, and when they walk in the street people hurl abuse at them from car windows or throw frozen bread at them. I know intimately what you are talking about.

I've been around the world and lived years life abroad.
I can think of 10 countries that have worse casual racism, racism and racial hatred than Australia.
Western Bulldogs for example, a program to help Jewish and Muslim kids play footy together for mutual understanding.
Try doing that in several countries and you know which. Would never ever happen.

Anyway, that's my take and I said enough.

[EasternWest]

Cut scene to Fairfax board room.
Right guys coming up to election, we need maximum clicks.
Keen junior journalist " How about we really go after Jeff on this Rioli, the left leaning Victorians hate him, and he doesn't matter to us anymore".
Good idea! ok great. We can get maximum outrage on this one, and keep our agenda bubbling along.

Have you ever noticed how the same company keeps different plates spinning in different states?
Same stories, different angles depending on how they want to tailor it to the audience.
It's all about clicks and then, working where it counts.

GD are you ok?

[Ghost Dog]

GD are you ok?

When facebook started to insert references to advertisers inside articles rather than outside them in banner ads, their advertising revenue increased by 4.5

How else are traditional ownerships supposed to compete?

"The Australian ( and Age) indicates that there’s an audience prepared to pay for a more intellectualised outrage mixed in with some decent journalism. And the success of the more journalistically traditional news.com.au shows that less outrage and more mass-audience news can work as an advertising driven online offering." Link (https://www.crikey.com.au/2018/12/03/what-do-changing-demographics-mean-for-the-news-corp-papers/)

[Sedat]

https://omny.fm/shows/3aw-is-football/mark-robinson-sheds-new-light-in-cyril-rioli-story

Interesting development. I note with interest none of Buddy Franklin, Shaun Burgoyne or Chance Bateman were aware of any racial issues at the Hawks - think I'll take their word (and Michael Long) over the gutter scribe with a vendetta pushing hard for the narrative, with no thought or care for the damage she causes to people and club along the way.

[bornadog]

https://omny.fm/shows/3aw-is-football/mark-robinson-sheds-new-light-in-cyril-rioli-story

Interesting development. I note with interest none of Buddy Franklin, Shaun Burgoyne or Chance Bateman were aware of any racial issues at the Hawks - think I'll take their word (and Michael Long) over the gutter scribe with a vendetta pushing hard for the narrative, with no thought or care for the damage she causes to people and club along the way.

What about Cyril's word?

[Topdog]

https://omny.fm/shows/3aw-is-football/mark-robinson-sheds-new-light-in-cyril-rioli-story

Interesting development. I note with interest none of Buddy Franklin, Shaun Burgoyne or Chance Bateman were aware of any racial issues at the Hawks - think I'll take their word (and Michael Long) over the gutter scribe with a vendetta pushing hard for the narrative, with no thought or care for the damage she causes to people and club along the way.

The whole thing is a mess and may be impossible for outsiders to ever know what really happened but Michael Long not knowing details really means nothing to me at all.
Have either of the 3 players mentioned spoken publicly?

[Ghost Dog]

GD are you ok?

hi East D.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore this.
yes I am ok but many are struggling here.
At least in Wuhan you could get food delivery.
It's a debarcle now, but neighbours are really good here, all pitching in. Thanks for asking.

[merantau]

I've read a fair bit of this thread but not all. For me the most dismaying issue was a team mate asking if another team mates partner "was a boong too". That is just so offensive and nothing was done about it.

What's that saying about culture and the standards you accept? What message does that send to the Indigenous members of any organisation in which people are able to get away with stuff like that?

That's more hurtful and has a longer lasting effect than the casual use of racist language.