It's a very simple problem - Hit your Free Throws

[mjp]

It isn't just the misses.

It's what they mean to the players who miss AND the rest of the team.

Naughts and Bont have a serious problem right now. Fixing it will NOT be easy. They literally had ALL summer to fix it and they made zero progress...but now, well, now it's impacting everyone.

It impacts the players down the ground (ball in hand) - they simply don't want to release it by foot.
It impacts the players down the ground (defensively). - they WILL NOT press as they are worried about the rebound...which kills our second chance opportunities.

It impacts the players themselves - they wont lead straight up...they literally do not want easy shots on goal...because when you miss from there, well....

I get it - the comments about it being 'MORE' than the shots on goal...I mean, they're fundamentally right. But the misses - the repeated misses - they suck the life out the team, out of the group and pushing 30m across to support suddenly feels just 5% less important...and once that starts happening, it's over.

Compare that to Richmond literally rising as one when Riewoldt kicked one from outside 50m as time expired...I hate to say it but he is a champion player who understands the moment.

[Hotdog60]

I think just hit the nail on the head mjp.
If the team is busting a gut to get the ball in a scoring position the constant misses have to take some sort of mental toll.
Bevo tells us that all the forwards do plenty of goal kicking practice and if that is the case then that practice needs to be looked at.
Weather its how they practice or who is running the practice. Is it supervised or is player lead.
Time may come from management to hire a park time specialist coach for the forward group to work on their deficiencies.

[The Underdog]

Should Naughton just change his technique to a snap regardless of where he is? He’s clearly not improving as a set shot, something needs to change.

[G-Mo77]

Free Throws, my biggest bug bear. From a basketball background I cannot fathom how professional players cannot make FT's. I never played at any high level but I sat at there for hours practicing FT's because I knew one day it would help me. My team one a local GF on the back of me icing my shots.

Now enough about me these are professional footballers. It is completely inexcusable to miss so many. Normally I go to defence and say we don't get good shots or they're rushed and some of them were last night. Lot's of them were set shots, lots of them were wide open shots on the run. It is woeful! Hands up who thought Lachie Hunter would miss after the gimme 50M he got. I know I did. I walked out of the room to put my empty beer can in the bin saying "He'll f^&*$ miss it"

Goal kicking has been an issue for a long time as MJP said it has not been addressed. Miss easy goals and someone shanks a torp from outside 50 and it goes through, that breaks any heart you have left. Beveridge said in the presser he does not want to address it? Why the hell not? These are professional footballers, missing an easy goal is just as bad as a miss kick in play and player x who does that miss kick will be yelled at during the huddle. Stop mollycoddling these insecure athletes and put the dam heat on them to perform!

[Go_Dogs]

Naughts, Bont, Treloar, Smith, Dunkley, Hunter… yeah, it’s a good call. Bont has actually improved his goal kicking a lot the last few years. Last night an exception not the rule.

[EasternWest]

Free throws are a gimme. If you can't shoot free throws you're a sucker.

[bornadog]

There were alot of shots last night from various players that were long range and excusable to an extent, but both Naughton and Bont had gettable shots inside 50, that missed. 2.3 and 1.3 that is 6 that could have been at least halved and made a difference.

The players do practise goal kicking at training, but in a match there are other pressures and it starts to get into their.

I am convinced goal kicking accuracy is got to do with above the shoulder.

[GVGjr]

There were alot of shots last night from various players that were long range and excusable to an extent, but both Naughton and Bont had gettable shots inside 50, that missed. 2.3 and 1.3 that is 6 that could have been at least halved and made a difference.

The players do practise goal kicking at training, but in a match there are other pressures and it starts to get into their.

I am convinced goal kicking accuracy is got to do with above the shoulder.

It is but the technique and leg strength for some of the players are contributing factors as well.

[Danjul]

There were alot of shots last night from various players that were long range and excusable to an extent, but both Naughton and Bont had gettable shots inside 50, that missed. 2.3 and 1.3 that is 6 that could have been at least halved and made a difference.

The players do practise goal kicking at training, but in a match there are other pressures and it starts to get into their.

I am convinced goal kicking accuracy is got to do with above the shoulder.
It is definitely poor technique. For example, against Sydney, Naughton kicked a very good goal from a significant distance. Shortly after, he missed to the left with a set shot from much closer. His body stance was obviously very different from where I was sitting. In the first he was over the ball and kicked through it. In the second he was leaning back. It was a repeat of Bruce in 2020. Needs to practise kicking from 30, 35 then 40 m with his right foot to refocus body alignment.

[bornadog]

It is but the technique and leg strength for some of the players are contributing factors as well.


It is definitely poor technique. For example, against Sydney, Naughton kicked a very good goal from a significant distance. Shortly after, he missed to the left with a set shot from much closer. His body stance was obviously very different from where I was sitting. In the first he was over the ball and kicked through it. In the second he was leaning back. It was a repeat of Bruce in 2020. Needs to practise kicking from 30, 35 then 40 m with his right foot to refocus body alignment.

Technique issues has to do with the way you approach your shots. You have to go through your routine in your head and make sure you have it right. Bont's three misses were not set shots, they were on the run, but Naughton's were set shots and as Danjul says he didn't set up right.

[GVGjr]

Technique issues has to do with the way you approach your shots. You have to go through your routine in your head and make sure you have it right. Bont's three misses were not set shots, they were on the run, but Naughton's were set shots and as Danjul says he didn't set up right.

Bont also has no problems with his leg strength. He missed his options to inspire the team as the captain.

[DOG GOD]

Naughton is always going to be 50/50 no matter where he is. Actually I’d rather see him kicking from 55 than 25.

[Ghost Dog]

I think it's a secondary thing. With the Western Bulldogs there is always this thing that we don't belong there, or don't deserve it.

As in the original post, it just takes that one goal to lift and get a tail up.
But fail to miss that and things start to sag. Resiliance!

Set shots have to be taken with the right technique.
It's natural, young people
Maybe to be in the best 22 players have to pass a mid week kicking exam.
They have to pass fitness tests, so why not?

People are being woken up here at 4am to do their testing.
I've just had my 16th test.
Be grateful for the chance to get to games, enjoy the sights and smells, get behind the team.

[Torpedo]

I noticed the players on club video practicing goal kicking during the week. There is no point perfecting poor technique. The fault lies at junior level I think where the skills of the game should be paramount. The club has needed a specialist kicking coach for a decade or so. But I do recall an interview some years ago where Leon Cameron reckoned it was almost impossible to correct poor kicking by the time players were drafted. Not sure Bruce Andrews (of the taut instep) would agree.

[GVGjr]

I noticed the players on club video practicing goal kicking during the week. There is no point perfecting poor technique. The fault lies at junior level I think where the skills of the game should be paramount. The club has needed a specialist kicking coach for a decade or so. But I do recall an interview some years ago where Leon Cameron reckoned it was almost impossible to correct poor kicking by the time players were drafted. Not sure Bruce Andrews (of the taut instep) would agree.

For someone like Naughton as a junior he was a strong marking back with great defensive awareness. His job was probably to mainly kick the ball sideways to the better users who would run and carry the ball forward and not be aiming for goals.
His kicking was awkward but effective in that role and his character and confidence shone through.

By chance at a practice game at Ballarat he was moved forward and he has performed very well there and except for his set shot conversions it's been a positive move. I'm not sure the coaching at the junior level is to blame.

While I think Leon is somewhat correct in his assessment I do think we could improve Naughton's goal kicking. It might not come naturally to him but even a 20% improvement would be significant.

[josie]

Didn’t the Blues help improve Casboults goal kicking a fair bit? Didn’t one of Rocca brothers help Cloke too? 20% improvement would’ve worth it.

[MrMahatma]

Surely it can be improved. Golfers improve their swing. I get it… ball moving etc. Tennis players can become better at serving.

[chef]

Should Naughton just change his technique to a snap regardless of where he is? He’s clearly not improving as a set shot, something needs to change.
Yeah he should give what Harry McKay does a go

[GVGjr]

Didn’t the Blues help improve Casboults goal kicking a fair bit? Didn’t one of Rocca brothers help Cloke too? 20% improvement would’ve worth it.

All true, it can happen.

[MrMahatma]

Is it worse to not be “hard enough”, or to regularly miss shots at goal.

Schache gets tossed around cause apparently he looks lazy or scared or something… but at least he can convert. I’d play him ahead of Hannan, McNeil, Butler, Scott… Cordy (as fwd).

[DOG GOD]

Is it worse to not be “hard enough”, or to regularly miss shots at goal.

Schache gets tossed around cause apparently he looks lazy or scared or something… but at least he can convert. I’d play him ahead of Hannan, McNeil, Butler, Scott… Cordy (as fwd).

Totally agree. He’d probably offer more to the team in team balance alone than all those players, who are nothing but bits players with no real position.

[Grantysghost]

All true, it can happen.

Nick Reiwoldt, Stewie Loewe, Tredrea all improved to an extent.
Naughton's technique is pretty horrible though, but I guess it's getting better.
So frustrating though!

[Ghost Dog]

Barry Hall would be an excellent kicking coach.

[soupman]

Is it worse to not be “hard enough”, or to regularly miss shots at goal.

Schache gets tossed around cause apparently he looks lazy or scared or something… but at least he can convert. I’d play him ahead of Hannan, McNeil, Butler, Scott… Cordy (as fwd).

This is a different argument.

Bringing in Schache doesn't fix the issues with everyone else re conversion, and while occasionally a steadying goal can help mitigate it Schache doesn't have a big enough influence on games for this to be anything more than an anomaly imo.

[soupman]

I think for a lot of our players we should be just changing the approach. Bont and Hunter for starters frequently miss easy shots inside 40. Both are great snaps on the run. Both should be adopting the Steve Johnson method to at least see if it has merit.

[Vred]

Barry Hall would be an excellent kicking coach.


His someone we really should of targeted for forward line coach, not an ex Eagles/Sydney/Hawks defender...

[Danjul]

This is a different argument.

Bringing in Schache doesn't fix the issues with everyone else re conversion, and while occasionally a steadying goal can help mitigate it Schache doesn't have a big enough influence on games for this to be anything more than an anomaly imo.
This is simply an urban myth.

Schache played consistent excellent games at the end of 2019 and was banished. Could not get a game after being a proven consistent goal kicker. He played consistent good games at the end of 2021 against finals teams and was banished.

I’m happy with that. Just stop insulting my intelligence by saying he is always crap - because it’s not correct. I’m tired of seeing players do as bad in a game and worse over consecutive games and be selected. We have seen players barely touch the ball this year but get told they are meeting KPIs.

Doesn’t anyone at the club know that KPIs are hierarchical. Kicking goals is up near the top, and Schache and 3 others can do it reliably from 50m. So the genius in the game plan is how to get the ball to them. Time to address that and stop serving up this 17 goals out of 70 shots rubbish.

[MrMahatma]

This is a different argument.

Bringing in Schache doesn't fix the issues with everyone else re conversion, and while occasionally a steadying goal can help mitigate it Schache doesn't have a big enough influence on games for this to be anything more than an anomaly imo.

But Hannan, Scott, Butler, McNeil do?

[Ghost Dog]

I really love Josh's kicking action. You are right Danjul he is an excellent shot for goal.

[macca]

It is definitely poor technique. For example, against Sydney, Naughton kicked a very good goal from a significant distance. Shortly after, he missed to the left with a set shot from much closer. His body stance was obviously very different from where I was sitting. In the first he was over the ball and kicked through it. In the second he was leaning back. It was a repeat of Bruce in 2020. Needs to practise kicking from 30, 35 then 40 m with his right foot to refocus body alignment.

ALL PLAYERS needs to practice technique under fatigue. When your tired , your body will revert backt to what comes naturally. LYON use to ask his forwards at end of training to practice goal kicking . I wonder what they actually do for practice ? If anyone can share observation from training sessions it would be greaf ?.

Jack and Nick Riewold were poor kicks at the start of their careers. Last nigths 50 m out torp,J.Riewoldt shows how much he improved ,he even practices with ear phones playing with the crowd noise

It irritates me, we picked grant ahead of Riewoldt, and his actually improved every year , whereas Grant , wtf did we see him as a long term footballer ???

[Prince Imperial]

It irritates me, we picked grant ahead of Riewoldt, and his actually improved every year , whereas Grant , wtf did we see him as a long term footballer ???

They were in different drafts (R in 06 and G in 07). Everitt was selected a pick ahead of Riewoldt which was a total F up.

I remember in 2006 watching our Werribee affiliate play a televised match against Tasmania and the 17 year old Jack starred booting 4 goals. We were totally lacking tall forwards on our list at the time which made it even more crazier.

[GVGjr]

ALL PLAYERS needs to practice technique under fatigue. When your tired , your body will revert backt to what comes naturally. LYON use to ask his forwards at end of training to practice goal kicking . I wonder what they actually do for practice ? If anyone can share observation from training sessions it would be greaf ?.

Jack and Nick Riewold were poor kicks at the start of their careers. Last nigths 50 m out torp,J.Riewoldt shows how much he improved ,he even practices with ear phones playing with the crowd noise

It irritates me, we picked grant ahead of Riewoldt, and his actually improved every year , whereas Grant , wtf did we see him as a long term footballer ???

We miss goals early in the quarter so I think it's more of a case your technique is lacking it gets exposed later in the game or quarters but we do miss our share early in games.

[soupman]

But Hannan, Scott, Butler, McNeil do?

Again different argument.

This is about how by not taking our chances as a side (and particularly key players and leaders) and its resultant impact on the side.

Playing Schache has merit, but picking him doesn't fix our issues as a team with "free throws", unless we believe his 1-3 decent set shots have such a steadying influence on the team everyone else's performance is improved immeasurably.

[mjp]

We miss goals early in the quarter so I think it's more of a case your technique is lacking it gets exposed later in the game or quarters but we do miss our share early in games.

We miss 'em in the first quarter - or at least we have the past 2-weeks. And when you miss, you worry. And when you worry, you're technique falls apart - and your decision making becomes compromised.

The equivalent down the other end is the player who mis-hits a switch kick and decides to go long down the line for the rest of the day (or maybe he is just a limited player who is playing within his capabilities). Either way, once the oppo know you CAN'T or WONT, you become fresh meat and they make you the kicker EVERY TIME. We saw this with Morris early in his career when he basically refused to kick the ball and had 3 kick/11 hb stat lines (much like the 2016 grand final to be fair when he was an excellent contributor). But we can't have it. If you miss all the time (or even regularly) it impacts everyone and everything and it is folly to suggest otherwise.

This is killing us right now and something has to give.

Naughts numbers were absolutely diabolical in 2021 yet he remained an effective player most weeks. But with Jamarra and Weightman clearly not at the level right now - you can add Hannan, Scott, McNeil and Butler to that group btw - it is being magnified. I am not a Bruce fan but he at least demanded an opponent. The oppo simply clog the middle and make Naughts lead wide...they know he wont kick them and set up for a sling-shot...

It's bad right now.

[bornadog]

We miss 'em in the first quarter - or at least we have the past 2-weeks. And when you miss, you worry. And when you worry, you're technique falls apart - and your decision making becomes compromised.

This is exactly what I am talking about when I said it is above the shoulders right now. The more you miss the more you worry whether you will kick the next one.

[Grantysghost]

This is exactly what I am talking about when I said it is above the shoulders right now. The more you miss the more you worry whether you will kick the next one.

We could hardly miss in that prelim could we.

[bornadog]

We could hardly miss in that prelim could we.

Kick straight early, gain confidence, and go on with it

[soupman]

We could hardly miss in that prelim could we.

Bizarrely for all our poor kicking in season from memory we are always great in finals. Barely a wasted shot.

[Ghost Dog]

Bizarrely for all our poor kicking in season from memory we are always great in finals. Barely a wasted shot.

complacency? a bit over confident?

[Mitcha]

I've said it before and I will say it again. Naughton's issue is his guiding hand (left). All kids are taught to guide the ball onto your boot with the hand at the side of the ball but Naughton's hand is more towards the back. Surely someone who knows more than me must have noticed what I have and could try to fix or at least improve his ball drop otherwise they are not fulfilling the role they are paid to perform.

[Grantysghost]

I've said it before and I will say it again. Naughton's issue is his guiding hand (left). All kids are taught to guide the ball onto your boot with the hand at the side of the ball but Naughton's hand is more towards the back. Surely someone who knows more than me must have noticed what I have and could try to fix or at least improve his ball drop otherwise they are not fulfilling the role they are paid to perform.

Id hate to see it on a windy day because he’d have 0 control over the drop.

[Bulldog4life]

Should Naughton just change his technique to a snap regardless of where he is? He’s clearly not improving as a set shot, something needs to change.

Most of the time his shots for goal fade left like Dawson of Adelaide kicking the sealer against Port. The difference is that Dawson allowed for the fade. Naughty doesn't. So it is not hard to fix. I heard from the man himself that Hansen was working on it last year with him. So he knows about it.

[Mantis]

Most of the time his shots for goal fade left like Dawson of Adelaide kicking the sealer against Port. The difference is that Dawson allowed for the fade. Naughty doesn't. So it is not hard to fix. I heard from the man himself that Hansen was working on it last year with him. So he knows about it.

The Dawson reference isn't relevant as it was not his normal kick shape and was acknowledged as a miss-kick/ fluke.

Repetition is the only way to improve.. golfers pound balls all day long until there hands are covered in blisters/ callouses but AFL players training loads get managed and wouldn't spend nearly enough time on the skills that matter... I doubt that AFL players train as much in a week as golfers do in a day.

[soupman]

The Dawson reference isn't relevant as it was not his normal kick shape and was acknowledged as a miss-kick/ fluke.

Repetition is the only way to improve.. golfers pound balls all day long until there hands are covered in blisters/ callouses but AFL players training loads get managed and wouldn't spend nearly enough time on the skills that matter... I doubt that AFL players train as much in a week as golfers do in a day.

I think the golf analogy is pretty good, except I'd be trying to move away from it as it is clearly not working.

That's why I like the idea of adopting the snap shot set shot style.

With our current set shots you can see them thinking like someone who is learning golf thinks. "Shoulders straight, ball over my foot, steady paces, look at the goals, stop looking at the goals, follow through, head over the ball" etc. Certainly in my experience I've had difficulty both overthinking set shot routines and also taking them too casually.

I think there is merit in changing it to a more natural action, which to me is the snap. It means they can just set up side on, and effectively just drop in to the shot without having to "walk the plank" as such. Bont is such a good snap too that I think it'd work for him, and while the technique of Naughton and Dunkley is not amazing i don't see how they would be much worse.

Obviously it's only really an option inside 40m but I think it's worth a go (can't do worse) and it means when they do take shots from further out they don't have the easy misses from straight in shots at 30m weighing on their shoulders.

[Mofra]

I've said it before and I will say it again. Naughton's issue is his guiding hand (left). All kids are taught to guide the ball onto your boot with the hand at the side of the ball but Naughton's hand is more towards the back. Surely someone who knows more than me must have noticed what I have and could try to fix or at least improve his ball drop otherwise they are not fulfilling the role they are paid to perform.
His first or second shot on goal against Sydney showcased the worst ball drop I've seen in a set shot for years. The ball just seemed to fall out of his hand and helicoptered down rather than spun. It was just weird.

At this point it's more mental than physical though.

[bornadog]

His first or second shot on goal against Sydney showcased the worst ball drop I've seen in a set shot for years. The ball just seemed to fall out of his hand and helicoptered down rather than spun. It was just weird.

At this point it's more mental than physical though.

Yes, needs to concentrate more on following through the proper technique - a set routine like Dickson use to have.

[Grantysghost]

Yes, needs to concentrate more on following through the proper technique - a set routine like Dickson use to have.

Bring him back as a goal kicking coach.

[WBFC4FFC]

Bring him back as a goal kicking coach.

Can't be too hard to get Dickson to help. Doesn't he still live in West Footscray!

[Ghost Dog]

I had a bunch of underperforming students.
So I asked them to design a lesson and teach that subject to a bunch of primary kids.
Actually, it worked really well.
The Feynman technique.

Send them off to Spotswood primary. Then institute a mid-week pass or fail best 22 kicking test.