WB Game Day V Geelong R12 2022

[G-Mo77]

I don't agree, coaching is not the issue.

You don't see issues with our forward line setups/structure?

[Grantysghost]

I don't agree, coaching is not the issue.

Well, I saw a pretty well coached side tonight win an important game.

They took away our strengths tactically.

Our half backs who are so lethal got 0 easy outs all night with the Cats owning the corridor which meant we never got our overlap game going. We were forced wide all night and never got clean forward 50 entry. They structured up brilliantly behind the ball.
Bevo went his usual extra at the stoppage which played into Scott's hands as they matched it and this congestion coupled with their persistent attack on the second possession from the stoppage resulted in more dirty ball inside.

Once inside it was more of the same, super congested due to slow ball movement from upfield pressure, an overload from the Cats to drag in our press and leave space out the back for Cameron and Hawkins. Not sure why Gardner was on Hawkins it was a very strange matchup. He mauled him early which set the tone.
I think we had ten more inside 50s, five less shots, and seven less marks. It was clear early we were in trouble in the air in our forward 50, so I was surprised English didn't spend any time in there at all. Maybe that was a selection issue.

We seem to be so one speed, if teams take that away we rarely adjust enough to mitigate. We needed tempo and patience but I felt we constantly played fast and dumb and played into their hands. It's ok to play slow when will we learn this!

Our press was never adjusted and always felt too high which is great for winning time in forward half but that doesn't win games. I would've liked to see some variation in our depth here.

I don't think we changed a lot tactically to get back in it. It was work rate and they lost a handy player.

No Danger either so personnel wise I thought we had the edge.

Of course the players ability to execute has to be questioned. The effort was insipid early. Still at WC pressure levels.
From what I could tell once the work rate hit the mark we started to even things up though our execution continued to be poor which clearly isn't coaching.
McComb set shot, Dunkley wayward entries etc.

Bloody Geelong!

[GVGjr]

Gardner is not at league standard. He coughed up opportunites with regulation kicks gone bad with zero pressure. We don't have other options but when you compare who Geelong have in defence he doesn't stack up.

I think that is a bit of a harsh perspective on Gardner. He had a poor night but he's also had a more than reasonable year.

[GVGjr]

Can we move on from borderline state level players in McComb and McNeil?

I'd much rather invest time into Jones and Bedendo moving forward.

We shouldn't gift games, there are more deserving players than Jones and Bedendo at the moment.

[G-Mo77]

I think that is a bit of a harsh perspective on Gardner. He had a poor night but he's also had a more than reasonable year.

Ball in hand though he horrendous. Is there a better way we can hide that?

[GVGjr]

I can handle a mistake here and there, its going to happen to the very best. For many of his opponent's goals, there wasn't much I thought he did wrong. He's no A grader, but he's definitely shown he is able to play a role at this level.

Spot on YHF, he didn't have a great night but he's been a more than decent performer this year and has had some very creditable games.

[GVGjr]

I know there is always discussions around if players are we are being linked to from a recruitment perspective are tall enough but height alone doesn't necessarily make for effective back lines. The Cats are just far better organised and know their roles.

Losing Stewart somewhat early didn't overly effect them and the same with a late withdrawal of Kolodjashnij.

By the way, as someone old enough to remember Terry De Koning playing for us it's a shame we didn't have the right sort of picks to land one of his boys in their draft years.

[G-Mo77]

I don't remember him but for some reason I was googling the De Konig's and noticed their Dad was a former Bulldog

[GVGjr]

I don't remember him but for some reason I was googling the De Konig's and noticed their Dad was a former Bulldog

Don't you go flaunting your youthful age in front of the old farts. How dare you sir :)
He was a fairly limited player and played as a defender for us. His two boys are going along OK and should have long careers.

[DOG GOD]

Our best fwd for creating space is Wallis, but he wasn’t playing, possibly coz he’s slow and has no defensive pressure….oh hang on ;)

[merantau]

Just back from the game. Such a frustraing night.

We came out from the start with intensity but missed chances. They made us pay with coast to coast gaols and from difficult conversions to rub salt into the wounds. We also then gifted them goals with school boy turnovers. Then they got momentum and we were on the back foot. The way Geelong play you don't want to give them a lead to defend.

Every time we play Geelong they also play the game on their terms. They concede the midfield numbers and contest to us. However, they defend the front of the stoppage well. They force us backwards and they always have players behind the ball. We need to force the play into a crowded Bulldogs forward line. When they get a turnover they are then off to the races and get easier looks when they get behind us.

Our inability to even halve contests in the air is a massive concern. They just schooled us all night. The part that hurt the most was so many uncontested marks where they just had numbers and better positioning.

Even with all of that ... if we took our chances like they take their chances we win. Cameron kicks them from everywhere. Angles, distances, pressure all result in goals. McComb after the play of the night misses from 30m out directly in front. Weightman misses a set shot from 20m with a regulation snap. Naughton misses a snap from 15m out. West can't make the distance with a set shot snap from 30m. How are we so bad at converting? We win the inside 50 count 57-48 and lose again.

Even with all those missed goals, we absolutely gifted them two goals from horrific school boy turnovers in our back 50m. They gave us nothing easy all night.

We are close. But we are a mile away. Just not good enough to get the job finished and have now lost to Carlton by 12, Geelong by 13, Crows by 1 and Port by 17. Even win two of those and we would be flying. But to lose all of them is just puts us in a difficult position.

Nailed it in a nutshell or three. So frustrating.

[merantau]

I hate Geelong. Hate them. Hate them. Hate them.

That is 2 wins for us from our last 17 games.

Last few games.

Cats by 13
Cats by 5 after the siren.
Cats by 11.

They own us.

I hate them more and more each day.

[comrade]

That was a real ‘time to plan for next year’ type of game for me.

[merantau]

That was a real ‘time to plan for next year’ type of game for me.

Please, I'm depressed enough already. The season is not over yet but the gradient is getting steeper with every loss.

[Grantysghost]

That was a real ‘time to plan for next year’ type of game for me.
That game sort of felt like the par result for Bevo against the better sides. Apart from some lightning in a bottle in finals we are generally just a step behind in normality.
I’m not sure how we bridge the gap tbh.
Bont has a shoulder injury (AC) he’s been carrying plus the ankle, he’s so important he’s not influencing games atm. He’s just great and not god like !

[comrade]

That game sort of felt like the par result for Bevo against the better sides. Apart from some lightning in a bottle in finals we are generally just a step behind in normality.
I’m not sure how we bridge the gap tbh.
Bont has a shoulder injury (AC) he’s been carrying plus the ankle, he’s so important he’s not influencing games atm. He’s just great and not god like !

How do we bridge the gap? Stack your F50 with natural forwards, play a genuine 2nd ruck option that can also contribute elsewhere, have more marking power in defence and place a premium on foot skills and good decision makers.

Basically - structure up like every other top 4 side. Work ethic, mindset etc can only take you so far. The right type of players need to be in the right parts of the ground for it to matter anyway. We have both (chronic) structure and (regular) mindset issues which means we’re always chasing the leading pack.

[angelopetraglia]

How many games this year have followed this script?

When the other has any type of momentum they put us to the sword with multipe easy conversions (even North did this to us). When we gain the ascendancy and dominate possesion and territory we can't connect with out forwards and when we do they kick points. It saps your energy, confidence and mental well being.

Carlton game went like this.
Swans game went like this and we nearly lost.
Tigers game went like this.
Port game went like this.
Cats game went like this.

[Grantysghost]

How do we bridge the gap? Stack your F50 with natural forwards, play a genuine 2nd ruck option that can also contribute elsewhere, have more marking power in defence and place a premium on foot skills and good decision makers.

Basically - structure up like every other top 4 side. Work ethic, mindset etc can only take you so far. The right type of players need to be in the right parts of the ground for it to matter anyway. We have both (chronic) structure and (regular) mindset issues which means we’re always chasing the leading pack.

It was so evident last night. The cats guys were almost resting on the field as part of that huge space invaders formation they had going and our guys appeared to be working twice as hard.

Well structured sides like Melbourne and the Cats almost appear effortless compared to our mania.

[comrade]

How many games this year have followed this script?

When the other has any type of momentum they put us to the sword with multipe easy conversions (even North did this to us). When we gain the ascendancy and dominate possesion and territory we can't connect with out forwards and when we do they kick points. It saps your energy, confidence and mental well being.

Carlton game went like this.
Swans game went like this and we nearly lost.
Tigers game went like this.
Port game went like this.
Cats game went like this.

What if our ongoing inability to convert inside 50s into scoring opportunities and scoring opportunities into actual goals was due to the fact that the personnel we select to play inside 50 aren’t forwards and don’t have the nous or ability to play there at a consistently high level?

We had McComb (not a natural forward) spraying a simple 30m set shot, they had Cameron slotting them from 55. They had Hawkins bullying Gardner, we had Naughts (not a natural forward) struggling to break even with De Koning. They had Close (a natural forward) causing issues for us, we had McNeil (not a natural forward) giving us nothing.

[angelopetraglia]

What if our ongoing inability to convert inside 50s into scoring opportunities and scoring opportunities into actual goals was due to the fact that the personnel we select to play inside 50 aren’t forwards and don’t have the nous or ability to play there at a consistently high level?

We had McComb spraying a simple 30m set shot, they had Cameron slotting them from 55.

Yes. Agree. Massive part of the issue.

[bornadog]

Looking at the positive side of the game, we held them to just 1 goal in the 2nd quarter and 2 points in the 3rd. We didn't take our chances with McComb missing a shot to put us within a goal going into the last, and the umpires making a huge mistake with the Ed down field not allowed was plain disgusting. We were within 5 points for most of the last quarter, but just couldn't crack that extra goal.

In the end we didn't have good enough tall backman to stop an inform Cameron kicking 6 goals.

The biggest negative was that 1st quarter. Overall very disappointing.

[Grantysghost]

Looking at the positive side of the game, we held them to just 1 goal in the 2nd quarter and 2 points in the 3rd. We didn't take our chances with McComb missing a shot to put us within a goal going into the last, and the umpires making a huge mistake with the Ed down field not a loud was plain disgusting. We were within 5 points for most of the last quarter, but just couldn't crack that extra goal.

In the end we didn't have good enough tall backman to stop an inform Cameron kicking 6 goals.

The biggest negative was that 1st quarter. Overall very disappointing.

When the intensity came we matched them as we should with the talent on the list.

Also the Cats being so for up early could sit back and soak up the pressure. If they had to score more we might’ve opened them up on the turnover but it rarely happened.

It seems a theme in a lot of our losses, if only we executed this better or kicked this goal which to me all just means not good enough. This is (with my terrible memory) going back to the Tigers game at the G last year when someone hit the post late…if only we didn’t hit the post.

[soupman]

That had huge shades of the ear of the Dogs game where Wallace makes the vomit comment. Great effort, but that gets you nothing, when you have such an insipid and disastrous first quarter.

Is this the least trustworthy Bulldogs side we have seen? Since 2016 we frequently have games that we don't turn up in. Important ones and irrelevant ones alike. This was typical Beveridge era ame after quarter time, maximum effort, dominant for multiple quarters, but horrifically inefficient. We make it so hard for ourselves, it's honestly just exhausting watching how hard we have to work to score goals. I'm sorry to harp on about list management and the like but the players we have in our squad mean we do everything on hard mode. Half our forwardline aren't forwards and are trying to manufacture something instead of it coming naturally, half our defence are undersized or effort based players (and certainly not natural one on one players), and the way we set up means maximum effort is required maximum time. To then frequently see the opposition kick the easiest of goals (how many times did we see some variation of energy sapping plays like kickout-Blicavs-Hawkins-Cameron?) is just flat out demoralising.



I was surprised Gardner went to Hawkins and Keath to Cameron. I would have thought the other way round made more sense.

I too thought the other way around made more sense. Gardner struggled with Hawkins physicality early (thought he was pretty good for most of the game though, but a few crucial early contests helped set the tone for them), and Keath never really managed to impact Cameron one on one so his physicality was wasted (of which he had plenty of opportunities, Cameron runs so well). I thought we would have been playing to obth players strengths much ore if we flipped them around.

Maybe the thinking was that Keath is a physical player but not as good as Hawkins and Gardner covers the ground well but not as good as Cameron, so flipping them meant they both retained those advantages in those areas and could hopefully break even in the other.



I liked Bukus ruckwork and dont think having Sweet in would have made a difference.


Agree in part, Khamis actually did great in the ruck contests. By my count he was involved in 8 and we won the clearance in all of them (often with Khamis involved in the chain) bar one (and that one involved about a minute of scrappy contests in the vicinity before Geelong eventually won it so I'd say it was a draw).

Would Sweet have made a bigger difference though? I think yes. Khamis played just 53% gametime (uninjured), had no impact at all outside of those ruck contests and a lucky goal, and never seemed to be in the play up forward. Yes I think he did well in the ruck but 8 contests is a blip and we couldn't have expected him to do that well in the ruck. So what was our plan for him?

We did well in the clearances particular after quarter time, but I'm not sure that was due to English's ruckwork. He rarely to my eye got a hitout to advantage, even when he did win it, but his follow up work as usual was great. There were a few instances where we would have a clear player in perfect position to be tapped to and English would go for the neutral tap to the side option. From what I've seen of Sweet he would've hit up more of those options, and possibly given us that advantage out of the middle. I also thought we struggled in the first quarter in the middle and Sweet would have helped give us a different look there. Importantly Sweet in the ruck would've allowed English to play proper forward, as Naughton needed help and it would've put us in a position to truly take an advantage out of Stewarts absence.

To be clear I was happy with Sweet being dropped and us running with Khamis as the forward/ruck, but when I see what I presume was the plan eventuate and it's Khamis spending half the game on the bench for the sake of 8 ruck contests and no obvious impact up forward I struggle to think how the MC thought that was a better option than what Sweet could offer, especially considering Khamis' form leading into this has been thoroughly droppable.



We did not play to our forward set up at all - we knew we were short, so needed to use our hit up players. It is hard to believe that the players willingly ignored instructions, so I can only assume those instructions weren't given and 'bomb it to Cody in a 3 on 1' was a team rule.

Typical us though. This could be written after virtually any game we play against even half decent key defenders. We made Billy Frampton look like a god doing this.

Again so many comments in here are bemoaning that it wasn't tactics but execution and effort that let us down, but virtually all of the big issues on display last night (including the slow start) have been frequently on display during Beveridges reign and i struggle to think of any we have been able to consistently work out of our game.

[soupman]

Looking at the positive side of the game, we held them to just 1 goal in the 2nd quarter and 2 points in the 3rd. We didn't take our chances with McComb missing a shot to put us within a goal going into the last, and the umpires making a huge mistake with the Ed down field not a loud was plain disgusting. We were within 5 points for most of the last quarter, but just couldn't crack that extra goal.




It seems a theme in a lot of our losses, if only we executed this better or kicked this goal which to me all just means not good enough. This is (with my terrible memory) going back to the Tigers game at the G last year when someone hit the post late…if only we didn’t hit the post.

It's classic Bulldogs. In every important game the game seems to hinge on one or two moments. We know that if we don't take them it's a huge blow to our chances, but conversely when the opposition misses they often get another look in or opportunity.

I know a lot of it is just the bias I watch games through, but i do think it is compounded by how difficult it is for us to generate actual good opportunities at goal vs how easy it is for the opposition.

This is compounded by us having so few players that seem to want that opportunity to kick that important goal, and our inability to get the ball into any forwards hands consistently enough for them to be the guy (Naughton is the exception to this).

Looking at Geelong for example, the 4 most likely players to have an important shot for them in the last quarter are Cameron, Hawkins, Close and Rohan. All of them would be odds on to kick it from anywhere possibly including the boundary. They all seem bred to take those shots. They also aren't relying on a Rhys Stanley to be taking those shots like we would.

Conversely who in our lineup would you consider better than a 60% chance of hitting that McComb shot at that junction of the game? Weightman, Libba, Treloar and Dale? Would you trust any of the most likely players to get it to exceed that 60% chance? Bont, Naughton, Dunkley, English? I wouldn't.

To me it feels like in those important moments it's almost inevitable that the opposition have someone who will kick that goal get the chance eventually, while we feel like we play musical chairs with a bunch of players that do not want that shot.

[jeemak]

Well....without Premier League to watch I decided to put myself through the pain of the first quarter again.

Not meaning to harp on a point, but if you watched that again and didn't think the issues came down to execution and commitment from the players then I don't really know what to say.

Not running both ways, missing targets, kicking to them, and bees to a honey pot killed us. Clear as day.

Cameron was running up and down the ground and that should be taken care of by defenders being organised to deal with it. If that happens match ups don't mean a lot with two teams playing a systems based game. Our defenders need to be better, communicate better and get their shit together.

[merantau]

I'm as frustrated as anyone re our failure to win big games against, in particular, Geelong. It's pretty galling when you come to the realisation that having followed the Dogs for 66 years it's not too difficult to dial up our wins against Geelong.

The first I recall is Round 18, 1961 when we beat them at the Western Oval, knocked them out of the 4 and went on to reach the GF.

I can remember a game in the early 80s when the Pieman booted 12 at the Western Oval and another game in the same era at Kardinia Park when Les Bamblett took a few bounces and kicked a marvellous running goal.

I remember winning a really close one at Docklands about 14 years ago and the more recent one when we put 15 blokes on the mark and Hawkins??? had a shot after the siren - and missed. But that's all I can recall.

The defeats - especially the close ones - let's not go there.

So what is the solution? Keep doing the same thing and we'll get the same result. I would like to see us go as big and tall as possible. We haven't tried that yet. Play all of Sweet, JUH, Schache, Cordy and Khamis. Thus, McComb, Scott, McNeil and West make way.

English needs to spend more time forward. Schache and Cordy can play both forward and back. O'Brien also has that ability. JUH and Khamis can play on the wings or forward. With a tall forward line Weightman should be forbidden to fly for pack marks. He must crumb or lead into space only - either as a fair dinkum lead or as a decoy.

As people have pointed out we do have some issues in defence but these are more to do with skill errors, positioning and lack of communication.- too many players flying for the same ball.

The one thing I do know is this is yet another season, since 2016, when we have not delivered when we should have delivered with the personnel we have on hand. Yes, we have had injuries galore but we had those in 2016 and overcame them.

The season is only half over. We have a tough draw but that is based on the assumption that we don't turn up to play in the big games AGAIN!

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT!!!

[Bulldog4life]

Don't you go flaunting your youthful age in front of the old farts. How dare you sir :)
He was a fairly limited player and played as a defender for us. His two boys are going along OK and should have long careers.

I saw Terry's wiki page. For best position is bench.:)

[Bulldog4life]

After half time I would have liked Bevo to try O'Brien in the forward line. We couldn't have gone any worse and he has kicked goals and taken marks there in the past with Hawthorn. Plus we needed another tall in there. Surely the coaches could have seen this.

[bornadog]

After half time I would have liked Bevo to try O'Brien in the forward line. We couldn't have gone any worse and he has kicked goals and taken marks there in the past with Hawthorn. Plus we needed another tall in there. Surely the coaches could have seen this.

who would then pick up Rohan? Do you send Williams back, or maybe Buku?

[Bulldog4life]

who would then pick up Rohan? Do you send Williams back, or maybe Buku?

Maybe Williams and back to the wing next match. Something had to change.

[kruder]

One thing I found interesting at the ground is that Geelong man the mark a lot different to the way do and it seemed a lot more effective.

They actually hang back a bit and then at the last minute they move forward and man the spot, it actually put our players off and put them on the back foot on occasions which stopped us from playing on.

It was in stark contrast to our method which has 0 benefit make no mistake, I can't believe we are still doing it. Giving players space to wheel around and execute a kick with no pressure makes no sense. It's not like we have interceptors sitting back ready to take long bomb inside 50.

[Grantysghost]

One thing I found interesting at the ground is that Geelong man the mark a lot different to the way do and it seemed a lot more effective.

They actually hang back a bit and then at the last minute they move forward and man the spot, it actually put our players off and put them on the back foot on occasions which stopped us from playing on.

It was in stark contrast to our method which has 0 benefit make no mistake, I can't believe we are still doing it. Giving players space to wheel around and execute a kick with no pressure makes no sense. It's not like we have interceptors sitting back ready to take long bomb inside 50.

Im still trying to work out why we do that ! I guess it stops them running around the player on the mark which takes them out of the defence?
However it gifts so much space to good ball users I’m yet to see the benefit.

[Mantis]

After half time I would have liked Bevo to try O'Brien in the forward line. We couldn't have gone any worse and he has kicked goals and taken marks there in the past with Hawthorn. Plus we needed another tall in there. Surely the coaches could have seen this.

This should've been addressed during the week at selection and not at 1/2 time. Bevo's refusal to play height in our team costs us wins... it's as simples as that.

[Bulldog4life]

This should've been addressed during the week at selection and not at 1/2 time. Bevo's refusal to play height in our team costs us wins... it's as simples as that.

Agree entirely.

[bornadog]

This should've been addressed during the week at selection and not at 1/2 time. Bevo's refusal to play height in our team costs us wins... it's as simples as that.

Who should have come in for extra height?

[azabob]

Who should have come in for extra height?

Sweet and or Ugle-Hagan.

[bornadog]

Sweet and or Ugle-Hagan.

Debatable.

[Mantis]

Who should have come in for extra height?

Schache, Sweet or JUH? Like any of them!

Our forward-line was never a chance and we're mighty lucky Stewart went off and Kolo missed.

Like what was our plan with Stewart? I wasn't at the game, but on the vision it seemed like West and anyone else was on him... he's the competition's best interceptor and our plan was what exactly??

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Schache, Sweet or JUH? Like any of them!

Our forward-line was never a chance and we're mighty lucky Stewart went off and Kolo missed.

Like what was our plan with Stewart? I wasn't at the game, but on the vision it seemed like West and anyone else was on him... he's the competition's best interceptor and our plan was what exactly??

We didn't have a plan.

Stewart positioned himself on whoever he wanted - at times it was West, others it was Weightman or McNeil. All of these are terrible match-ups for us.

[Grantysghost]

Schache, Sweet or JUH? Like any of them!

Our forward-line was never a chance and we're mighty lucky Stewart went off and Kolo missed.

Like what was our plan with Stewart? I wasn't at the game, but on the vision it seemed like West and anyone else was on him... he's the competition's best interceptor and our plan was what exactly??

I was watching him closely at the game. There wasn't an obvious plan, he was doing what he wanted.

I was annoying my wife (who doesn't really follow the game but loves the dogs) by saying, look at 44, he's the best intercept marker in the league and he's on his own !

[Danjul]

Im still trying to work out why we do that ! I guess it stops them running around the player on the mark which takes them out of the defence?
However it gifts so much space to good ball users I’m yet to see the benefit.
Did you notice that the Geelong players run in quickly and try to steal a couple of metres. They stop with their arms out and wait for the umpire to call them back. Got away with it about 1 in 3.

[Grantysghost]

Did you notice that the Geelong players run in quickly and try to steal a couple of metres. They stop with their arms out and wait for the umpire to call them back. Got away with it about 1 in 3.

I did yes, they almost did the complete opposite to us.

[bornadog]

Schache, Sweet or JUH? Like any of them!

Our forward-line was never a chance and we're mighty lucky Stewart went off and Kolo missed.

Like what was our plan with Stewart? I wasn't at the game, but on the vision it seemed like West and anyone else was on him... he's the competition's best interceptor and our plan was what exactly??

I don't believe those players would have made much difference to the result. Our issue was Cameron kicking 6 goals. In the first quarter we were thrashed for inside 50s, so forwards didn't get much of a chance. After quarter time we kicked 9 goals to their 5

What we need to do is ask why they were allowed to kick 7 goals.


We didn't have a plan .

Do you actually believe that a coach wouldn't have a plan?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't believe those players would have made much difference to the result. Our issue was Cameron kicking 6 goals. In the first quarter we were thrashed for inside 50s, so forwards didn't get much of a chance. After quarter time we kicked 9 goals to their 5

What we need to do is ask why they were allowed to kick 7 goals.



Do you actually believe that a coach wouldn't have a plan?

BAD, I get you support the club no matter what, but surely you can admit that;

1. The 'plan', or complete lack of, to curtail Stewart was really evident. We're fortunate he went off early but otherwise he would have continued to absolutely dominate. Surely you yield to admitting having Weightman, McNeil and West 'cover him' only ends one way.

2. You've referred to the first quarter quite a bit and I get it, but why don't you hold the coaching group accountable for playing Keath on Cameron? Completely the wrong match-up and an obvious mistake. It's bewildering this was even tried.

[Mantis]

I don't believe those players would have made much difference to the result. Our issue was Cameron kicking 6 goals. In the first quarter we were thrashed for inside 50s, so forwards didn't get much of a chance. After quarter time we kicked 9 goals to their 5

What we need to do is ask why they were allowed to kick 7 goals.



You think whatever you liked, but having 1 tall forward + Khamis in against Geelong isn't going to get the job done and whilst we got smashed in the 1st qtr we controlled lots of the rest of the game, but didn't have anything in the front half to concern Geelong.

[bornadog]

BAD, I get you support the club no matter what, but surely you can admit that;

1. The 'plan', or complete lack of, to curtail Stewart was really evident. We're fortunate he went off early but otherwise he would have continued to absolutely dominate. Surely you yield to admitting having Weightman, McNeil and West 'cover him' only ends one way.

2. You've referred to the first quarter quite a bit and I get it, but why don't you hold the coaching group accountable for playing Keath on Cameron? Completely the wrong match-up and an obvious mistake. It's bewildering this was even tried.

1. The fact is Stewart did go off, however the ball rarely went into our F50 in the first quarter, so it didn't actually matter at that stage who was on Stewart. We don't know what would have happened if Stewart wasn't injured for the remainder of the game. You can't say there wasn't a plan - maybe in your eyes.

2. I have already said the matchups were wrong, but I don't think we had a player that could curtail Cameron. I don't believe Gardner could have stopped him, maybe we should have tried someone else? I think TOB went to him for a while. What we did do is stop the ball going into Geelong's F50 in the 2nd and 3rd quarter, so he didn't get a look in or a goal. That is what we should have done in the first, and also stopped his 3 in the last.

[bornadog]

You think whatever you liked, but having 1 tall forward + Khamis in against Geelong isn't going to get the job done and whilst we got smashed in the 1st qtr we controlled lots of the rest of the game, but didn't have anything in the front half to concern Geelong.

Sweet would have done F' all

Maybe JUH or Schache would have clunked a mark??? who knows.

Their back line other than De Koning were not very tall at all, no taller than Bont, Dunks, Buku who all rested there, so that wasn't the issue. Would have been different if Bruce was up forward.

[Grantysghost]

AFLCA votes

Western Bulldogs v Geelong
10 Jeremy Cameron (GEEL)
6 Tom Liberatore (WB)
4 Tom Atkins (GEEL)
3 Bailey Smith (WB)
3 Mitch Duncan (GEEL)
2 Jack Macrae (WB)
1 Sam De Koning (GEEL)
1 Cameron Guthrie (GEEL)

LEADERBOARD
63 Clayton Oliver (MELB)
58 Andrew Brayshaw (FRE)
58 Lachie Neale (BL)
53 Patrick Cripps (CARL)
52 Jeremy Cameron (GEEL)
50 Touk Miller (GCFC)
50 Christian Petracca (MELB)
48 Callum Mills (SYD)
43 Bailey Smith (WB)
41 Darcy Parish (ESS)
40 Max Gawn (MELB)
39 Jack Crisp (COLL)
39 James Sicily (HAW)
37 Charlie Curnow (CARL)
35 Sam Walsh (CARL)
31 Jordan De Goey (COLL)
31 Hugh McCluggage (BL)
31 Jack Sinclair (STK)
31 Tom Stewart (GEEL)
31 Jarrod Witts (GCFC)

[Danjul]

Sweet would have done F' all

Maybe JUH or Schache would have clunked a mark??? who knows.

Their back line other than De Koning were not very tall at all, no taller than Bont, Dunks, Buku who all rested there, so that wasn't the issue. Would have been different if Bruce was up forward.
Is that the 2020 version who was the worst bulldog full forward despite never being dropped or the 2021 version who got us into the finals and will always be viewed as a god?

[Danjul]

You think whatever you liked, but having 1 tall forward + Khamis in against Geelong isn't going to get the job done and whilst we got smashed in the 1st qtr we controlled lots of the rest of the game, but didn't have anything in the front half to concern Geelong.
We had 10 more inside 50s but the ball kept coming back out because nobody marked it.

Look at the 10 minute mark of the first quarter. Twice English kicked in to the forwards and the taller opponents outmark them. This was when we could have got back into the game.

The midfielders and Dale kicked a lot of the score.

[Grantysghost]

Is that the 2020 version who was the worst bulldog full forward despite never being dropped or the 2021 version who got us into the finals and will always be viewed as a god?

I hope we get the latter when he comes back. I feel like a lot is riding on his return probably completely unreasonable to expect last year's version but God I hope we get it.

[Mantis]

Sweet would have done F' all

Maybe JUH or Schache would have clunked a mark??? who knows.

Their back line other than De Koning were not very tall at all, no taller than Bont, Dunks, Buku who all rested there, so that wasn't the issue. Would have been different if Bruce was up forward.

Maybe Sweet could've taken a run in the ruck and allowed Tim a go up forward as he was very poor in the role he played.

But we've all seen the structure of one tall forward and the rest made of mids/ midgets fail against good teams so regardless of how tall the opposition was in defence we needed some forward targets and we only had Naughts... they knew it, made his life difficult and we had minimal other avenues to goal.

[Mantis]

1. The fact is Stewart did go off, however the ball rarely went into our F50 in the first quarter, so it didn't actually matter at that stage who was on Stewart. We don't know what would have happened if Stewart wasn't injured for the remainder of the game. You can't say there wasn't a plan - maybe in your eyes.



Our first 3 forward entries were marked by the opposition and in the other Naughts drew a free kick because Cameron had a brain fade ... if we had some forward targets the ball might not have trampolined out as easily as it did and we might have halted some of their momentum.

[DOG GOD]

The best we looked was when we started Naughton, Bruce and English fwd and Martin in the ruck.
3 tall fwds
Add in 3 tall backs, plus the ruck and you have the ideal balance of height in the team to move the chess pieces under all circumstances.

Ever since Martin got injured, English rucking alone, Bruce injured etc etc, we haven’t gone back to this game plan, and I’m not sure why, even though we had guys like sweet, JUH, Schache etc available to take the mantle.

[Grantysghost]

1. The fact is Stewart did go off, however the ball rarely went into our F50 in the first quarter, so it didn't actually matter at that stage who was on Stewart. We don't know what would have happened if Stewart wasn't injured for the remainder of the game. You can't say there wasn't a plan - maybe in your eyes.

2. I have already said the matchups were wrong, but I don't think we had a player that could curtail Cameron. I don't believe Gardner could have stopped him, maybe we should have tried someone else? I think TOB went to him for a while. What we did do is stop the ball going into Geelong's F50 in the 2nd and 3rd quarter, so he didn't get a look in or a goal. That is what we should have done in the first, and also stopped his 3 in the last.

Was 16-11 inside fifties first qtr (11 for us)

[bornadog]

Was 16-11 inside fifties first qtr (11 for us)

Unlike us, as we dominate inside 50s.

I am still pissed with that first quarter.

[Mantis]

Unlike us, as we dominate inside 50s.

I am still pissed with that first quarter.

It wasn't a 7 goals to 1 qtr though... we gifted them goals and got no reward going our way.

[Grantysghost]

Unlike us, as we dominate inside 50s.

I am still pissed with that first quarter.

You can't bring Eagles intensity to a cat fight!

[bornadog]

Is that the 2020 version who was the worst bulldog full forward despite never being dropped or the 2021 version who got us into the finals and will always be viewed as a god?

The one that kicked 48 goals

[Grantysghost]

It wasn't a 7 goals to 1 qtr though... we gifted them goals and got no reward going our way.

The one where Cameron came from 4 deep and ran around everyone to goal was inexcusable.

[Danjul]

Maybe Sweet could've taken a run in the ruck and allowed Tim a go up forward as he was very poor in the role he played.

But we've all seen the structure of one tall forward and the rest made of mids/ midgets fail against good teams so regardless of how tall the opposition was in defence we needed some forward targets and we only had Naughts... they knew it, made his life difficult and we had minimal other avenues to goal.
I think we practised it against Adelaide a few weeks ago (they were close to bottom of the ladder). This weekend was ‘ground hog’ day except we didn’t throw a backman forward to get a couple of goals.

Maybe next game we won’t bother with a forward line at all.

[Grantysghost]

I think we practised it against Adelaide a few weeks ago (they were close to bottom of the ladder). This weekend was ‘ground hog’ day except we didn’t throw a backman forward to get a couple of goals.

Maybe next game we won’t bother with a forward line at all.

It does kind of blow my mind that McNeil and McComb (the little Macs) get a gig before a bonafide forward in Schache.

I'm as hard on Schache as anyone (because I want him to succeed) but structurally he has to be better.

Must come in next game for one of those guys.

Bevo and his obsession with the turnover game/legspeed.

[Danjul]

The one that kicked 48 goals
Ah, the one that got 33 in the first half of the season as part of a team where English shared the ruck role and acted as a third tall forward.

[bornadog]

Ah, the one that got 33 in the first half of the season as part of a team where English shared the ruck role and acted as a third tall forward.

Not sure your problem with Bruce?

[bornadog]

It does kind of blow my mind that McNeil and McComb (the little Macs) get a gig before a bonafide forward in Schache.

I'm as hard on Schache as anyone (because I want him to succeed) but structurally he has to be better.

Must come in next game for one of those guys.

Bevo and his obsession with the turnover game/legspeed.

McNeil is ranked 15th best tackler inside 50 in the AFL

[Grantysghost]

Not sure your problem with Bruce?

I think Danjul is pointing out the structure was better back then rather than Bruce was bad.

[Grantysghost]

McNeil is ranked 15th best tackler inside 50 in the AFL

I love McNeil I was trying to be balanced.

[Danjul]

It does kind of blow my mind that McNeil and McComb (the little Macs) get a gig before a bonafide forward in Schache.

I'm as hard on Schache as anyone (because I want him to succeed) but structurally he has to be better.

Must come in next game for one of those guys.

Bevo and his obsession with the turnover game/legspeed.His natural game is like Cameron who Uses leading patterns (instead of contested pack marks) and accurate kicking. Geelong relies on the other tall forward to do the heavy stuff.

Together they cover all bases and give multiple targets that are hard to control,

We could really learn a lot from that Geelong debacle.

[Danjul]

I think Danjul is pointing out the structure was better back then rather than Bruce was bad.
Exactly. Our forwards were unstoppable. By this point of the season Bruce had 30 goals, Naughton had 30, Bont had 20, English had a dozen despite missing games. Treloar was kicking goals too. So many goals. So many wins.

Get the ball into tall forwards quickly (ruck aspect) and they know how to deliver success.

Living proof of what we should do.

[Grantysghost]

His natural game is like Cameron who Uses leading patterns (instead of contested pack marks) and accurate kicking. Geelong relies on the other tall forward to do the heavy stuff.

Together they cover all bases and give multiple targets that are hard to control,

We could really learn a lot from that Geelong debacle.

Cameron is much more dynamic. Has tons of speed. Shack is a bit of a plodder.

[Danjul]

Cameron is much more dynamic. Has tons of speed. Shack is a bit of a plodder.
The video in another thread shows him kicking multiple goals from outside 50 , getting the ball from fast leads. Admittedly a lower standard but his finishing ability can’t be denied. Put him in the firsts and tell the midfielders to honour his leads. Count the goals.

Or waste his talent. Glad it’s not my choice.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Cameron is much more dynamic. Has tons of speed. Shack is a bit of a plodder.

Schache is a leading forward but given our poor delivery into the forward line often gets bypassed. His kicking for goal is superb in direct contrast to Naughton. Would rarely be seen flying with either Bruce or Naughton.

[Grantysghost]

Schache is a leading forward but given our poor delivery into the forward line often gets bypassed. His kicking for goal is superb in direct contrast to Naughton. Would rarely be seen flying with either Bruce or Naughton.
He would've kicked 70 goals every year in the 90s

[jazzadogs]

You can compare the style of Schache (75 goals from 68 games, best year 24.8 from 14 games in 2019) to Cameron (503 goals from 198 games, averaging 2.53 per game with 6 out of 10 seasons 40+ goals) but you can't compare the results.

I would have Shack in the team this week, but let's not get too carried away about him being the difference.

[bornadog]

I love McNeil I was trying to be balanced.

Yeah what happened to that Avatar. :D

To me McComb is improving every week, but he is not best 22/23 but a good back up to have.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

You can compare the style of Schache (75 goals from 68 games, best year 24.8 from 14 games in 2019) to Cameron (503 goals from 198 games, averaging 2.53 per game with 6 out of 10 seasons 40+ goals) but you can't compare the results.

I would have Shack in the team this week, but let's not get too carried away about him being the difference.

He will not be the difference but neither is our current structure. We need two genuine ruck men which includes Sweet and a second tall forward be it Schache until Bruce is fit again. There is also a lack of experience on the forward line with McComb McNeil and West. Players like Bont Dunkley and Treloar need to play more time forward to provide more experience and goal kicking abilities.
Until we get the balance right we can expect more of the same as was experienced against Geelong

[Grantysghost]

Yeah what happened to that Avatar. :D

To me McComb is improving every week, but he is not best 22/23 but a good back up to have.
What avatar ?

[azabob]

I love McNeil I was trying to be balanced.

I see what you did there…

[Grantysghost]

I see what you did there…
Can you let me know what it was?

Also why do you hate Levi so much I’m a huge advocate.

[bornadog]

What avatar ?


Can you let me know what it was?

Also why do you hate Levi so much I’m a huge advocate.

Who is that old bloke?

[Danjul]

He will not be the difference but neither is our current structure. We need two genuine ruck men which includes Sweet and a second tall forward be it Schache until Bruce is fit again. There is also a lack of experience on the forward line with McComb McNeil and West. Players like Bont Dunkley and Treloar need to play more time forward to provide more experience and goal kicking abilities.
Until we get the balance right we can expect more of the same as was experienced against GeelongWe should thank Geelong for forcing us to look at our history/future?

After the premiership we hit the middle of 2017 at 6:6.

Then we spent seasons as cellar dwellers. Bottom 4 for too many games.

We are now 6:6 after a grand final. It is time to get serious.

[Danjul]

You can compare the style of Schache (75 goals from 68 games, best year 24.8 from 14 games in 2019) to Cameron (503 goals from 198 games, averaging 2.53 per game with 6 out of 10 seasons 40+ goals) but you can't compare the results.

I would have Shack in the team this week, but let's not get too carried away about him being the difference.
During 2018 and 2019 Schache played 27 games and was goalless 4 times. That’s in a struggling team. His 20 goals in the second half of 2019 helped restore some dignity to a club whose catastrophic failure after a premiership had everyone scratching their head. He worked well with Dale and Naughton who also got about 20 goals late in the season.

Then the bizarre stuff happened.

I have no expectations. If he is benched and sits out half the game I won’t be surprised. In fact what will surprise me is if he comes into the team.

[jeemak]

We didn't have a plan.

Stewart positioned himself on whoever he wanted - at times it was West, others it was Weightman or McNeil. All of these are terrible match-ups for us.

Have you considered that we did have a plan and that in a lot of instances it would have worked if we had have not butchered the footy in the first quarter?

I'm not sure if you've decided to torture yourself like I have and re-watched the first quarter, but it was the execution and lack of help and numbers assisting the ball carrier, that fed Stewart. And Dekoning for that matter.

Additionally, the old bees to a honey pot mentality was in our game and we didn't respect the wider side of each stoppage and contest and were burned more than a few times because of it. Holding width is the buzz phrase around the AFL, if you don't do it you get torched all over the ground, and if the coaches aren't preaching that then it's very bad news (see Cameron's miss-kick receive/ sealer).

Not pissing in your pocket TBB, you're a really smart guy when it comes to footy, but there's a bit of a blind spot with you on this one in my view.

Edit - If it is as you say then we're riddled with incompetence across our entire football department because every shit head commentator knows you need to have a plan for counter-balancing Stewart's influence, and it's gross incompetence not to have one. This could be the case, sure, but essentially you're suggesting we spent our entire planning for the game last week avoiding the most obvious issue we need to deal with and that's concerning and to me, entirely unbelievable.

[comrade]

So we either didn’t plan adequately and adapt our usual game plan to counter Stewart or we did have a plan but the coaching group was unable to coordinate the playing group and get them to buy in and adhere to it?

Either way, not great.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So we either didn’t plan adequately and adapt our usual game plan to counter Stewart or we did have a plan but the coaching group was unable to coordinate the playing group and get them to buy in and adhere to it?

Either way, not great.

So there is no situation where the player's need to shoulder blame for failing to implement what was in all probability a pretty clear instruction of what not to do against Geelong?

I'm not sure any of our coaches could've done anything game plan wise to combat the horrible skills errors that saw us commit unforced, costly turnovers. Similarly our constant bombing to Stewart and De Koning was probably rule number 1 that the coaches instructed the players to avoid. Beveridge even spoke of the poor decisions in the first quarter when delivering the ball inside 50. Pointing out that they chose the wrong options when there were better targets open.

And there has been talk about the role of the 2nd ruck amongst many posters. Khamis' might not have won many hitouts, but athe ruck contests he was in, we won just about all of the resulting clearances. Others have said we were one tall short, up forward. OK, but without inside context of what we were hoping to achieve game plan wise, I don't know how we can objectively critique it.
What I'm confident of, is that the decision wasn't made lightly. They must've had a tactical reason for it. They didn't do it for shits and giggles.

I totally agree that the club has strategically been wrong footed on our list management and as a result we're short a decent 2nd ruck that fits in with our preferred game plan, and obviously our back 6 stocks are thin for key defenders. The club absolutely needs to correct this going forward.
That being said, knowing these strategic deficiencies and without ability to address it during a season, the club must therefore look for tactical ways to mitigate. I think that's the genesis for why we're seeing less than orthodoxy in our selections.

[Grantysghost]

So we either didn’t plan adequately and adapt our usual game plan to counter Stewart or we did have a plan but the coaching group was unable to coordinate the playing group and get them to buy in and adhere to it?

Either way, not great.

The plan appeared to be: go small.

McNeil, West, McComb, Weightman.

So that left Naughton and Khamis.

Naughts was the primary target for the most part so I guess that leaves Buku maybe as the plan to foil him in the air with the down stream group instructed not to kick it near him?
It was hard to tell.

[azabob]

The plan appeared to be: go small.

McNeil, West, McComb, Weightman.

So that left Naughton and Khamis.

Naughts was the primary target for the most part so I guess that leaves Buku maybe as the plan to foil him in the air with the down stream group instructed not to kick it near him?
It was hard to tell.

Not really. Buku only played 53% game time. Plan was to go small and stay small.

[Grantysghost]

Not really. Buku only played 53% game time. Plan was to go small and stay small.

It's certainly confusing. 53 percent, that's odd.

I guess then getting it in any which way and keeping it there was the tactic.

[GVGjr]

So there is no situation where the player's need to shoulder blame for failing to implement what was in all probability a pretty clear instruction of what not to do against Geelong?



It's basically on the players the way they zoned off on us. I wonder if we had the right players though



I'm not sure any of our coaches could've done anything game plan wise to combat the horrible skills errors that saw us commit unforced, costly turnovers. Similarly our constant bombing to Stewart and De Koning was probably rule number 1 that the coaches instructed the players to avoid. Beveridge even spoke of the poor decisions in the first quarter when delivering the ball inside 50. Pointing out that they chose the wrong options when there were better targets open.



Agree, bombing into the forward line has been problematic for a few years now and the decision making and skill execution was a real challenge for us. A more composed effort early in the game on Friday night would have ensured we didn't have to whittle away at their lead for as long as we did.



And there has been talk about the role of the 2nd ruck amongst many posters. Khamis' might not have won many hitouts, but athe ruck contests he was in, we won just about all of the resulting clearances. Others have said we were one tall short, up forward. OK, but without inside context of what we were hoping to achieve game plan wise, I don't know how we can objectively critique it.
What I'm confident of, is that the decision wasn't made lightly. They must've had a tactical reason for it. They didn't do it for shits and giggles.



Khamis as a 2nd ruckman doesn't work for me, it's a poor plan in my opinion.



I totally agree that the club has strategically been wrong footed on our list management and as a result we're short a decent 2nd ruck that fits in with our preferred game plan, and obviously our back 6 stocks are thin for key defenders. The club absolutely needs to correct this going forward.
That being said, knowing these strategic deficiencies and without ability to address it during a season, the club must therefore look for tactical ways to mitigate. I think that's the genesis for why we're seeing less than orthodoxy in our selections.

Good post, thanks for sharing.

[Grantysghost]

So there is no situation where the player's need to shoulder blame for failing to implement what was in all probability a pretty clear instruction of what not to do against Geelong?

I'm not sure any of our coaches could've done anything game plan wise to combat the horrible skills errors that saw us commit unforced, costly turnovers. Similarly our constant bombing to Stewart and De Koning was probably rule number 1 that the coaches instructed the players to avoid. Beveridge even spoke of the poor decisions in the first quarter when delivering the ball inside 50. Pointing out that they chose the wrong options when there were better targets open.

And there has been talk about the role of the 2nd ruck amongst many posters. Khamis' might not have won many hitouts, but athe ruck contests he was in, we won just about all of the resulting clearances. Others have said we were one tall short, up forward. OK, but without inside context of what we were hoping to achieve game plan wise, I don't know how we can objectively critique it.
What I'm confident of, is that the decision wasn't made lightly. They must've had a tactical reason for it. They didn't do it for shits and giggles.

I totally agree that the club has strategically been wrong footed on our list management and as a result we're short a decent 2nd ruck that fits in with our preferred game plan, and obviously our back 6 stocks are thin for key defenders. The club absolutely needs to correct this going forward.
That being said, knowing these strategic deficiencies and without ability to address it during a season, the club must therefore look for tactical ways to mitigate. I think that's the genesis for why we're seeing less than orthodoxy in our selections.

I guess for me the coaching part of a coaches role, ergo actually teaching your strategy to the players and getting them to carry it out seems to be a big problem at times?

I think the tactics were poor to begin with, so coupled with a failure to execute you end up with the first qtr.

Why aren't the players getting it? Either they're all dumb or it's not being taught properly. Or maybe they aren't buying in to it.
I guess you'd have to be on the inside to know.

[azabob]

It's certainly confusing. 53 percent, that's odd.

I guess then getting it in any which way and keeping it there was the tactic.

My guess is Khamis tank is still questionable and needed to spend all his time in the ruck.

It was noticed in our interchange rotations. We only used 62 of the 75. Normally we are at low 70's

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I guess for me the coaching part of a coaches role, ergo actually teaching your strategy to the players and getting them to carry it out seems to be a big problem at times?

I think the tactics were poor to begin with, so coupled with a failure to execute you end up with the first qtr.

Why aren't the players getting it? Either they're all dumb or it's not being taught properly. Or maybe they aren't buying in to it.
I guess you'd have to be on the inside to know.

My worry is not that our gameplan is poor per se, but that some of our supposed elite players are prone to making really horrifying skill errors that opens us up. Bont, Macrae & Dale all committed fundamental skill errors in the first qtr that led to easy Geelong scores. I understand that players make mistakes, but it seems to happen quite regularly. So my question for the coaches would be around 'Is our game plan suitable for the player skillsets we have? If we can't trust Macrae, Bont or Dale to execute reliably on fundamentals then maybe we need to account for this in how we set up? I don't even know if that is feasible.

[Grantysghost]

My worry is not that our gameplan is poor per se, but that some of our supposed elite players are prone to making really horrifying skill errors that opens us up. Bont, Macrae & Dale all committed fundamental skill errors in the first qtr that led to easy Geelong scores. I understand that players make mistakes, but it seems to happen quite regularly. So my question for the coaches would be around 'Is our game plan suitable for the player skillsets we have? If we can't trust Macrae, Bont or Dale to execute reliably on fundamentals then maybe we need to account for this in how we set up? I don't even know if that is feasible.

Good points YHF.

There's also the opposition's ability to negate it I guess. It looked perfect against the Eagles :)

[bornadog]

Good points YHF.

There's also the opposition's ability to negate it I guess. It looked perfect against the Eagles :)

Geelong are good at pressuring the ball carrier

[MrMahatma]

My guess is Khamis tank is still questionable and needed to spend all his time in the ruck.

It was noticed in our interchange rotations. We only used 62 of the 75. Normally we are at low 70's

But JUH can't get a game cause his tank isn't big enough? Or Sweet doesn't impact enough outside of the ruck contest?

Why we'd have a player and only give them 53% game time is beyond me. I didn't know that until just now and don't get the double standards on that one.

[comrade]

So there is no situation where the player's need to shoulder blame for failing to implement what was in all probability a pretty clear instruction of what not to do against Geelong?

I'm not sure any of our coaches could've done anything game plan wise to combat the horrible skills errors that saw us commit unforced, costly turnovers. Similarly our constant bombing to Stewart and De Koning was probably rule number 1 that the coaches instructed the players to avoid. Beveridge even spoke of the poor decisions in the first quarter when delivering the ball inside 50. Pointing out that they chose the wrong options when there were better targets open.

And there has been talk about the role of the 2nd ruck amongst many posters. Khamis' might not have won many hitouts, but athe ruck contests he was in, we won just about all of the resulting clearances. Others have said we were one tall short, up forward. OK, but without inside context of what we were hoping to achieve game plan wise, I don't know how we can objectively critique it.
What I'm confident of, is that the decision wasn't made lightly. They must've had a tactical reason for it. They didn't do it for shits and giggles.

I totally agree that the club has strategically been wrong footed on our list management and as a result we're short a decent 2nd ruck that fits in with our preferred game plan, and obviously our back 6 stocks are thin for key defenders. The club absolutely needs to correct this going forward.
That being said, knowing these strategic deficiencies and without ability to address it during a season, the club must therefore look for tactical ways to mitigate. I think that's the genesis for why we're seeing less than orthodoxy in our selections.

What not to do against Geelong is go in with a small forward line and then just bomb it in long all game. We did both.

The first one is 100% on the coaching team, the second one is arguable as we revert to the same style against any decent team.

[Grantysghost]

Some reasonable analysis here : https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/afl-news-2022-western-bulldogs-finals-chances-defence-exposed-could-fritter-away-fox-footy-first-crack/news-story/f10a289e699dafe5ce3deffbb4a938f8

[azabob]

Some reasonable analysis here : https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/afl-news-2022-western-bulldogs-finals-chances-defence-exposed-could-fritter-away-fox-footy-first-crack/news-story/f10a289e699dafe5ce3deffbb4a938f8

lol. That is terrible.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Some reasonable analysis here : https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/afl-news-2022-western-bulldogs-finals-chances-defence-exposed-could-fritter-away-fox-footy-first-crack/news-story/f10a289e699dafe5ce3deffbb4a938f8

Yep saw that and it is reasonable. If the Dog's coaches don't acknowledge this, then they're kidding themselves.
Whether we went in too short up forward.. that's open for debate I think. I'd need to understand what tactical advantage they were trying to obtain and then assess that against what the players did and if it aligned with the tactic. If it did align with the tactic, then our coaching group should be under the pump and need to question their tactical assumptions. If the players just didn't execute the tactics agreed upon, yes its fundamentally on the coaches to adress that during the week, but during game its on the player's to own that they're not playing according to the plan.

[Grantysghost]

lol. That is terrible.

Had Keath watched any tape on Cameron? He runs that line a lot. He seemed to want to cover the out the back, and that goes to our mantra of numbers at the contest I guess. But when you send numbers up against good teams by foot and at the contest you can get seriously exposed if the work rate is off. It's a high stakes, low percentage gameplan. That's probably why when it works we go deep, but it doesn't work often enough to get us top 4.

[1eyedog]

Maybe Sweet could've taken a run in the ruck and allowed Tim a go up forward as he was very poor in the role he played.

But we've all seen the structure of one tall forward and the rest made of mids/ midgets fail against good teams so regardless of how tall the opposition was in defence we needed some forward targets and we only had Naughts... they knew it, made his life difficult and we had minimal other avenues to goal.

100% our over-reliance on our midfield kicking a winning score each week is flawed. Play Marra, play Schache, try Bedendo, try TOB or bring in Sweet and play English forward at times. Try something. Playing Khamis as the 3rd intercept defender his entire VFL life and then thrusting him into a defensive forward then forward-ruck role is a one way ticket to failure. Would have preferred to see Khamis go back to his customary role and bring TOB forward for a look than have Khamis running around in circles in the forward line.

I get what we were trying to do at least we really want the Hannan medium forward role filled and that's cool but it doesn't help Naughts, or at least its not at the moment. Just play a second key forward FFS. There's only one guy who is going to take a mark down there at the moment and he is being completely taken out of the game each week because he is 100% of the focus every week leading up to a game agaisnt us. We're not doing him any favours either btw. If you're a decent team with a well drilled midfield and you stop Naughton you will beat us quite easily.

We can play like rock stars against inferior teams but we cannot close the gap between our worse (and it's really bad) and our best. If we could we'd have won at least two more games than we have. We're a 8-12 team and we are where we should be.

[1eyedog]

He will not be the difference but neither is our current structure. We need two genuine ruck men which includes Sweet and a second tall forward be it Schache until Bruce is fit again. There is also a lack of experience on the forward line with McComb McNeil and West. Players like Bont Dunkley and Treloar need to play more time forward to provide more experience and goal kicking abilities.
Until we get the balance right we can expect more of the same as was experienced against Geelong

Possibly the weakest small-medium forward line based on talent in the league at the moment. Westy is worth playing for his defensive pressure at least he sets an example. Hopefully JJ can take McNeil's spot soon and I'd like to swap out McComb for a tall.

[1eyedog]

Yep saw that and it is reasonable. If the Dog's coaches don't acknowledge this, then they're kidding themselves.
Whether we went in too short up forward.. that's open for debate I think. I'd need to understand what tactical advantage they were trying to obtain and then assess that against what the players did and if it aligned with the tactic. If it did align with the tactic, then our coaching group should be under the pump and need to question their tactical assumptions. If the players just didn't execute the tactics agreed upon, yes its fundamentally on the coaches to adress that during the week, but during game its on the player's to own that they're not playing according to the plan.

Keath was caught in no mans land. I'm sure he's been pushed up the ground to utilise his intercepting ability but it was like he was trying to cover every contest rather than track the most dangerous man on the ground.

[comrade]

Possibly the weakest small-medium forward line based on talent in the league at the moment. Westy is worth playing for his defensive pressure at least he sets an example. Hopefully JJ can take McNeil's spot soon and I'd like to swap out McComb for a tall.

None of them are genuine forwards for a start.

[bornadog]

Possibly the weakest small-medium forward line based on talent in the league at the moment. Westy is worth playing for his defensive pressure at least he sets an example. Hopefully JJ can take McNeil's spot soon and I'd like to swap out McComb for a tall.

You know McNeil is 15th in AFL for tackles inside 50 and has kicked a goal a game. Not saying he is better than JJ, but also don't forget he is a 22 game player aged 20 years old.

[bornadog]

Some reasonable analysis here : https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/afl-news-2022-western-bulldogs-finals-chances-defence-exposed-could-fritter-away-fox-footy-first-crack/news-story/f10a289e699dafe5ce3deffbb4a938f8

This just proves what I have been saying in this thread. The forward line was not the problem on Friday, it was the loose backline and our inability to contain Cameron. Keath so far in this thread has not been criticised, only Gardner has been. Yes the forward line had it's flaws (like missing gettable goals), but when the forward line was given the opportunity, they outscored Geelong.

[GVGjr]

You know McNeil is 15th in AFL for tackles inside 50 and has kicked a goal a game. Not saying he is better than JJ, but also don't forget he is a 22 game player aged 20 years old.

McNeil isn't going to be a match winner but he's proven himself to be a more than reliable back-up. If he has been the one to cover JJ's absence I'm not sure we could ask for more. He just needs to tidy up some of his goal kicking and he could become a best 22 player for us. Knows his role so if he can improve a bit he will be a solid player for us.

[bornadog]

McNeil isn't going to be a match winner but he's proven himself to be a more than reliable back-up. If he has been the one to cover JJ's absence I'm not sure we could ask for more. He just needs to tidy up some of his goal kicking and he could become a best 22 player for us. Knows his role so if he can improve a bit he will be a solid player for us.

I think he will be ok. Had a quiet game v Geelong. His goal kicking has improved a lot and has only kicked 3 behinds this year in 9 games.

[GVGjr]

I think he will be ok. Had a quiet game v Geelong. His goal kicking has improved a lot and has only kicked 3 behinds this year in 9 games.

He plays a difficult position so he will have some cold games but as you have pointed out he finds other ways to contribute when he doesn't have the ball. It's why you necessarily just look at the stats to determine the real value of a player.
McNeil brings some other attributes.

[Mantis]

You know McNeil is 15th in AFL for tackles inside 50 and has kicked a goal a game. Not saying he is better than JJ, but also don't forget he is a 22 game player aged 20 years old.

Doesn’t anyone really care if you’re the 15th best tackler inside 50?

He has kicked well from set shots this year, but in 9 games he’s had over just 5 kicks just twice and one of these was against WC which doesn’t really count given how bad they are.

He needs to do more if he’s going to make it.

[Danjul]

This just proves what I have been saying in this thread. The forward line was not the problem on Friday, it was the loose backline and our inability to contain Cameron. Keath so far in this thread has not been criticised, only Gardner has been. Yes the forward line had it's flaws (like missing gettable goals), but when the forward line was given the opportunity, they outscored Geelong.
The forward line was definitely a problem. Look at the 10 minute mark of the First quarter. I think we were already a few goals down and desperately needed some scoring. English marks, passes into the left forward pocket. Target is outmarked. Ball comes back out. English gets a free kick. Passes back in. Same thing, target outmarked.

We clearly had more inside 50s but very few set shots at goal resulted.

I saw Macrae set up passes to forwards for no avail. Not enough height. Williams also. The midfielders would be better off attacking the goals themselves.

How many times was Naughton double and triple tagged? In the game against West Coast we saw Sweet position himself behind Naughton to protect him. I saw none of that against Geelong.

And yet we still looked like winning with 15 minutes to go.

57 inside 50 … 9 marks inside 50.

[GVGjr]

The forward line was definitely a problem. Look at the 10 minute mark of the First quarter. I think we were already a few goals down and desperately needed some scoring. English marks, passes into the left forward pocket. Target is outmarked. Ball comes back out. English gets a free kick. Passes back in. Same thing, target outmarked.

We clearly had more inside 50s but very few set shots at goal resulted.

I saw Macrae set up passes to forwards for no avail. Not enough height. Williams also. The midfielders would be better off attacking the goals themselves.

How many times was Naughton double and triple tagged? In the game against West Coast we saw Sweet position himself behind Naughton to protect him. I saw none of that against Geelong.

And yet we still looked like winning with 15 minutes to go.

57 inside 50 … 9 marks inside 50.

How would you set-up our 6 or 7 forwards for the next game?

[josie]

I think he will be ok. Had a quiet game v Geelong. His goal kicking has improved a lot and has only kicked 3 behinds this year in 9 games.

Some dreadful sprays out on the full to add to that. I do agree he adds pressure in F50 and think he is likely to make it as a regular in best 22. McNeil is improving over time too, although I agree if JJ fit he might lose his spot. At present he is offering more then Scott who must be close to being dropped. Weightman has to offer more than flying for speccies and flopping for frees - he is so much better then that.

[bornadog]

The forward line was definitely a problem. Look at the 10 minute mark of the First quarter. I think we were already a few goals down and desperately needed some scoring. English marks, passes into the left forward pocket. Target is outmarked. Ball comes back out. English gets a free kick. Passes back in. Same thing, target outmarked.

We clearly had more inside 50s but very few set shots at goal resulted.

I saw Macrae set up passes to forwards for no avail. Not enough height. Williams also. The midfielders would be better off attacking the goals themselves.

How many times was Naughton double and triple tagged? In the game against West Coast we saw Sweet position himself behind Naughton to protect him. I saw none of that against Geelong.

And yet we still looked like winning with 15 minutes to go.

57 inside 50 … 9 marks inside 50.

The first quarter was a big problem. Only 11 inside 50s to 16, we got done like a dinner in that quarter.

We kicked 9 goals to 5 in the following 3 quarters, and held them to one for the 2nd and 3rd by locking the ball inside our half. Our defence fell apart in the first quarter and the last 10 min in the last quarter. It was only 6 points in it with 5 to go.

We let Cameron run loose.

[Danjul]

The first quarter was a big problem. Only 11 inside 50s to 16, we got done like a dinner in that quarter.

We kicked 9 goals to 5 in the following 3 quarters, and held them to one for the 2nd and 3rd by locking the ball inside our half. Our defence fell apart in the first quarter and the last 10 min in the last quarter. It was only 6 points in it with 5 to go.

We let Cameron run loose.

All true. But our 11 inside 50s resulted in 1 late goal and their 16 inside got 7.

That Is 1 from 11 versus 1 from 2. Catastrophic.

Then we got 9 goals from 46 inside 50s and some of those were kicked by backman (Dale) and midfielders (Libba x2)

I think the forwards got 5 goals from over 50 inside 50s. I thought we were cruising to a win but the forwards didn’t deliver their share.

[Danjul]

How would you set-up our 6 or 7 forwards for the next game?
Get as close as possible to Games 1-12 last year. They gave the best results I have seen in years.

[The Underdog]

How would you set-up our 6 or 7 forwards for the next game?

Sweet, Sweet, Sweet
Sweet, Naughton, Sweet

[azabob]

How would you set-up our 6 or 7 forwards for the next game?

HF: Johannisen, Ugle-Hagan, Treloar
F: West, Naughton, Weightman

Sweet to play as second ruck.

[bornadog]

Some dreadful sprays out on the full to add to that. I do agree he adds pressure in F50 and think he is likely to make it as a regular in best 22. McNeil is improving over time too, although I agree if JJ fit he might lose his spot. At present he is offering more then Scott who must be close to being dropped. Weightman has to offer more than flying for speccies and flopping for frees - he is so much better then that.

Scott does more than he is credited for. He is in the top 10 in the AFL for linking up play to goal. However, whether he holds his spot when JJ, or Hunter are back we will see.

On Weightman - I don't think he does anything wrong, yes he exaggerates some movements, but how many times a game? Once or twice, big deal, I don't care. All I care about is scoring goals, and he has kicked 16 in 10 games plus 3 assists.

[bornadog]

HF: Johannisen, Ugle-Hagan, Treloar
F: West, Naughton, Weightman

Sweet to play as second ruck.

Bruce is only weeks away. What would you do then?

[GVGjr]

HF: Johannisen, Ugle-Hagan, Treloar
F: West, Naughton, Weightman

Sweet to play as second ruck.

I like it but would have Schache ahead of Marra.

[Grantysghost]

I'd have
Marra, Schache, JJ
West, Naughton, Weightman.

Hannan for Marra (at this stage when fit) and Bruce for Schache again when fit.
If they're all in form then nice problem.

[bornadog]

I'd have
Marra, Schache, JJ
West, Naughton, Weightman.

Hannan for Marra (at this stage when fit) and Bruce for Schache again when fit.
If they're all in form then nice problem.

McNeil interchange?:)

[azabob]

Some dreadful sprays out on the full to add to that. I do agree he adds pressure in F50 and think he is likely to make it as a regular in best 22. McNeil is improving over time too, although I agree if JJ fit he might lose his spot. At present he is offering more then Scott who must be close to being dropped. Weightman has to offer more than flying for speccies and flopping for frees - he is so much better then that.

For mine Scott well ahead of McComb and McNeil.

Scott plays wing, forward and HB at times.

[josie]

Scott does more than he is credited for. He is in the top 10 in the AFL for linking up play to goal. However, whether he holds his spot when JJ, or Hunter are back we will see.

On Weightman - I don't think he does anything wrong, yes he exaggerates some movements, but how many times a game? Once or twice, big deal, I don't care. All I care about is scoring goals, and he has kicked 16 in 10 games plus 3 assists.

I think with Weightman he is/will miss out on frees he is due. I love him and just hope he pulls it back a bit, plus reduce going for same pack mark as Naughts to the latter’s detriment.

Agree Scott can be a good link up player - his two games at Mars this year were ok and I thought he was one of the few that mostly stood up to Crows. But to me I think he does not quite do enough, including unreliable goal kick (he was good at vfl level so assuming issue there is bw the ears) and seeing as he is favoured by MC I’m expecting more. I reckon we need to give Bedendo a go on wing (were he has been playing ok in last few VFL matches - looks like a silky player to me) or forward, possibly at expense of Scott.

[azabob]

Bruce is only weeks away. What would you do then?

Play Naughton back ;)

Bruce to replace either JUH or Weightman.

[azabob]

I like it but would have Schache ahead of Marra.

I'd have no issue with that, but I don't want Schache rucking though.

[bornadog]

I think with Weightman he is/will miss out on frees he is due. I love him and just hope he pulls it back a bit, plus reduce going for same pack mark as Naughts to the latter’s detriment.

Agree Scott can be a good link up player - his two games at Mars this year we’re ok and I thought he was one of the few that mostly stood up to Crows. But to me I think he does not quite do enough, including unreliable goal kick (he was good at vfl level so assuming issue there is bw the ears) and seeing as he is favoured by MC I’m expecting more. I reckon we need to give Bedendo a go on wing (were he has been playing ok in last few VFL matches - looks like a silky player to me) or forward, possibly at expense of Scott.

I don't like Weightman flying for the ball with Naughton.

[Grantysghost]

McNeil interchange?:)

He's captain coach in the guts.