Honest reflection and the path forward

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I truly believe the worst thing a club can do is to not accurately evaluate its list. Get it wrong and you can set yourself up for years of pain at the bottom (see Carlton) or forever lurking in the middle of the pack (see St Kilda - don't let their ladder positioning fool you, they're not a top 4 side).

I've been critical of our list management for a while, despite us making a Grand Final last year. For a long time we've been short on rucks, short on key defenders and short on natural forwards. Understand that it's rare you can ever tick EVERY box, but if you want to compete deep, you need to mitigate your weaknesses and maximise your strengths. Sounds simple, and yet we have neglected our areas of weaknesses for too long.

It hasn't 'cost us' until now. We have never been a highly skilled team under Bevo and we've never had a strong structure. We've relied on a number of other areas, namely;

1. Strong midfield - in the past we have just overwhelmed our opposition.
2. Contributions from 22 - we've had our stars but we've relied on even contributions.
3. Flexibility - talls who can play on smalls, smalls who can play taller, ability to play multiple positions etc.
4. A grinding mentality - questionable whether this is sustainable. Saw it succeed in 2016 and succeed for large parts of 2021, but when our ability to grind dissipates we have little structure to 'save us', which sees us fall in a hole (2017, 2018, arguably 2019/2020, 2022)

In my mind, the following is apparent;

1. Our midfield has dropped away and it's overrated. The end of the H&A season last year ahs become a trend. We recovered in the finals until the GF capitulation and we really haven't recovered since. The names on paper look good, but how effective are they REALLY? Stats aside, Bont's form has been... concerning. Dunkley's effort is good but his limitations are severe (ball use, lack of spread from the contest). Treloar has been disappointing and is a defensive liability. I might cop some flak for this and I love the guy, but Macrae is a bit of a stat padder - his influence on games has been 'meh' this year (maybe the average form of Bont and Treloar has an impact on Jack). Hunter has been well down and is similar to Macrae, there's little 'hurt' factor in his game. Libba looked good stat wise today but he's nowhere near the level he was in tight and his ability to spread is AWFUL. Smith has been pretty good, save for some crap disposal.

One of the biggest issues I have with our midfield group is their inability to spread. We are slow and our desire AND acceleration to defend is plainly terrible.

2. Contributions from the 22 are well down. Who has improved, let alone maintained their form from last year? English is the obvious improver, Dale has maintained his form, Gardner is an improver ... there's not much else to write about. Who is well down on production? Bont, Treloar, Williams, Daniel, Hunter, Duryea, Vandermeer, Keath. Meanwhile some of our fringe types who gave us something, have given nothing (McNeil, R Smith, Sweet, Garcia, Hannan).

3. Flexibility is largely form dependent. It hasn't worked - the ruck situation, Bont as a forward, Daniel, Cordy etc.

4. We aren't grinding. We don't look hungry. We look heavy both mentally and physically. We lost a GF to Melbourne and read about all the on-field and off-field bickering, but we turned up to R1 and were MEEK. Problem is, we simply can't be 'off' in this area and still win because our structure is non-existent. Melbourne can have moments where they're playing poorly but their defensive structure is so good that they can 'get by' until the tide turns.

OK, so where to from here?

** Evaluate the list honestly and act accordingly. We have too many half back flankers and too many mids. We have few natural forwards, next to no rucks and next to no KPDs. Fix it. Call it a mini-rebuild, call it a refresh, whatever. It's clear it needs fixing.

** Understand that we need more balanced talent on the list. How do we get it? Listen to offers for Dunkley, Hunter and Daniel for a start. I'm open to going to the draft if we rate it. Can we get 3 top 15 picks i.e. x1 for Dunkley, x1 for Daniel and then our own.

** Draft/trade in natural forwards. That's a mix of medium forwards (i.e. Dickson/Fritsch types) and small crumbing forwards.

** Draft/trade in x2 key defenders and a lockdown defender (Morris/Boyd type - Duryea is almost done).

** Draft/trade in x2 rucks. Not sure who is out there, could we/would we entertain somebody like Rory Lobb to partner with English? Likely would cost too much, and maybe Darcy is that player. Either way, English needs support because Martin is done and we don't rate Sweet.

** Make calls on McLean (harsh - but we can't keep carrying him), Wallis, Schache, West, Butler, McComb, Khamis.

** Consider a reboot for certain players. The first one I'd be looking at is Williams to the midfield. He looks 'done' as a defender for now, can he play inside mid or wing? Big body, good above his head, big kick. Showed a bit in the midfield around 2018, then followed it up with a poor pre-season which led him to a crossroads before he rejuvenated as a defender. Worth trying again, would give us something different in the midfield which we need. Khamis as a forward/ruck sounds like it's happening at VFL level, can Hannan move back? Could West play as a small defender? Vandermeer as a running half back? Daniel further up the ground?

** Lastly, do we need a change in coaching? I'm inclined to say yes and I think our targets should be Clarko and Buckley if so. The former is a great, the latter will be much better the second time around. I feel like Bevo (and his coaching group) are out of ideas and the same stubbornness which got us a Premiership and a GF birth is also partly why we're in a hole right now. Bevo has been wonderful for our club, but he's been the head coach for 8 years. That's a lengthy period of time, he looks disgruntled and tired. I could be wrong.

Apologies for the length of this post. Above all else, I'm convinced we have issues in both our playing personnel and in our coaching. Do you change one before the other? Do you change both?

What would you change?

[macca]

Great Post. Agree, Bevo looked a bit drained in the presser today. Its been an emotional week for the team. My condolences to Varcoe and the Wallis family.


The draft points accumulation to get JUH and Darcy I hope they don't come back to bite us because our current young crop in 20-23 age bracket is a concern , some of the younger players are not able to step up and challenge for the midfield positions.

Today being beaten by a harder working Adelaide younger midfield was really disappointing.

In 2016 - we at least head some depth like Jong, Prudden, Adcock, MArcus Adams and Suckling . Jong played without fear, and Adcock was a good kick.

A lot has to go right to win a Premiership, but it is always a few years of good planning.

Thanks for the great write up.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great Post. Agree, Bevo looked a bit drained in the presser today. Its been an emotional week for the team. My condolences to Varcoe and the Wallis family.


The draft points accumulation to get JUH and Darcy I hope they don't come back to bite us because our current young crop in 20-23 age bracket is a concern , some of the younger players are not able to step up and challenge for the midfield positions.

Today being beaten by a harder working Adelaide younger midfield was really disappointing.

In 2016 - we at least head some depth like Jong, Prudden, Adcock, MArcus Adams and Suckling . Jong played without fear, and Adcock was a good kick.

A lot has to go right to win a Premiership, but it is always a few years of good planning.

Thanks for the great write up.

Thanks Macca.

One point I neglected was the impact of JUH/Darcy and our draft pick points as you noted. I'm fine with that even now as both of these players can (hopefully) give us structure, but it's important we get some young talent on the list quickly. Trading two of Dunkley, Hunter and Daniel might hurt a bit short term but it would provide a chance for us to bounce soon after if we draft well.

I'd even consider trading all 3 to be honest...

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would trade Dunkley. In fact we might be in a better position now if we traded him out when he wanted to go.
Can't remember what the offer was exactly which might change things.
Hunter is family so I would say no. And Caleb Daniel is such an iconic figure I wouldn't trade him either. He's too loved. And he's pretty damn good.

[Dancin' Douggy]

What drives me mad is how keep topping our list up with Bevo's army of mini-me's. The earnest battler who 'earned' his chance. The nuggety, driven 'warrior' who'll give his all. Instead of bringing in different types and flavours.

[jazzadogs]

I was going to start a thread titled blessing or curse last night, specifically focussing on the Darcy/JUH/Treloar transactions.

Although all 3 will be/are good players, none of them filled the needs of a side challenging for a premiership.
The Treloar year we had so much to juggle with keeping Dunkley, getting Treloar, and also adding a ruck (Stef) and a tall small forward (Hannan). If Treloar hadn't landed in our lap, could/would we have investigated other options?

JUH and Darcy - although both have potential to be elite talents, we spent a lot to get them and I think it is a fair question to ask whether having those multiple picks would have netted a better result. Would we better placed as a side if we had been able to trade one of those top picks for a ready made KPF, or been able to use them on 2 or 3 top young talents instead of 1?

I don't think it's the reason for our list management issues, and we have still brought in a lot of best 22 talent in the last few years alongside the ones falling in our lap, but I don't think the situation helped.

[GVGjr]

The opening post is the critical thinking that every club needs to do when assessing where their list is at and if their playing style is keeping up with the opposition teams.
Where a lot of teams struggle is having the mettle at the board and admin level to pull the trigger of kick starting a refresh.
They factor in considerations like membership and perhaps even sponsorship considerations before making the call.

Look at North, they cleared house and probably thought it would be a quick trip to the draft before they got the kick but it's now proven to be a far bigger challenge. The Hawks tried or at least teased a fire sale last year but couldn't quite pull the trigger.
Sydney lost a couple of players in Hewett and Dawson and have to factor in what might happen with Franklin, Rampe and Kennedy but have backed the growth in their younger player group to get them back into contention.
Then there is the draft dodging and top up approach of Geelong that has kept them competitive but hasn't delivered what they really want.

Given we made it to the GF last year and really positioning ourselves in the GF to win the game it's clearly a reflection that our list was talented enough and with a few tweaks we should have been right in the mix again this year.
While at the moment we look to be a bit off the pace I can understand why the club thought we were close. I find our lack of KP depth and our almost refusal to use a tag frustrating but there is no doubt that we should have entered this year with confidence that we were in the mix for 2022.

Like every year come the end of the season we will have to make the hard call on where we are as a club, the strengths and weaknesses of the playing list and the effectiveness of the footy department in developing players and our game plans within the coaches box.

The next few weeks might determine the direction we will need to chart going forward.
Will it be a few tweaks?
Could it be a refresh?
Or could it be adding some additional resources to the coaching and footy department is all we need to do?

Great thread TBB, I think we will be revisiting this frequently during the season.

[SquirrelGrip]

What disappoints me the most is the lack of visibility of our President. I have no idea what she stands for, other than perhaps “the brand”. Smorgo or Gordo would have stepped up this week and said what a tragic week it has been for the football club, and how the deaths of those close to us has impacted everyone at the Whitten Oval. As a club, we put our collective arms around all of us and support each other like the family we are.

Instead, again it is left to Bevo and his under-resourced team. How he cannot be emotionally spent is beyond me, especially with what he invests with the players and those close to him.

I would really love to see for once our President step up and take the load off some others for a change.

[Bullies]

I would trade Dunkley. In fact we might be in a better position now if we traded him out when he wanted to go.
Can't remember what the offer was exactly which might change things.
Hunter is family so I would say no. And Caleb Daniel is such an iconic figure I wouldn't trade him either. He's too loved. And he's pretty damn good. We were offered a first and second round pick for Dunks but wanted 2 1st rounders. Good luck getting anywhere near that now.

[Danjul]

When I reflect on yesterday’s game I immediately find myself in the same hole I have been in for a long time.

The quality players are not in their best positions and they are not playing smart football as a cohesive team. As a result we’re not getting the full benefits from their talent. Cordy in the ruck, 7 hitouts and 7 possessions. And some easy forward entries for the opposition.

one example from late in the game: Walker gets an easy possession 40m out and kicks a good goal. Analyse the possession. He ran into an open space and marked a soft kick. The hole was deliberate and both kicker and receiver knew it would be there and played it perfectly.

Shortly before this the ball was coming into our forward line. Schache was moving his opponent right and pointing to his left at the hole he was opening. Obviously he wanted to lead into it. But the ball holder kicked high to a pack around Naughton.

There is a lack of cohesion bringing the ball into the forward zone. One plan, kick it high to Naughton. Yes there are occasional good deliveries, Bont and McRae can do it but it’s pretty rare and our forward efficiency is very low. That is why we are not seeing those extra goals.That’s why JUH is struggling, he has to go and get the ball because it’s not being given to him. That’s why he tries to outmark Naughton.

We need players playing to a well thought out and practised plan. I’m not seeing it. We need a better match day plan (now).

[Mofra]

If we had a mid (besides Libba) who would set up to defend a stoppage, that would be a great start.

Keays gets two clearance in the last so what do we do? Leave him all alone on the crows goal side of a ruck contest when our back-up was competing with R. O'Brien. Silly. He gets a third clearance and pumps the ball forward. A la the GF.

Crows put a tall behind the play as an extra in defence. Our solution? Bomb high to that extra all day. Again, silly and a lack of game sense.

Teams have worked us out, and Bevo has stopped adjusting as well as he used to mid-game

[josie]

Great posts. GVGJr mentioned this…..and it infuriates me no end when oppo midfields get a run on why we don’t we change tactics and lockdown, tag if necessary.

Same in backline, if you are being trounced make every player play man on man. Sometimes dour, boring football is better than the showy stuff.

[The bulldog tragician]

When I reflect on yesterday’s game I immediately find myself in the same hole I have been in for a long time.

The quality players are not in their best positions and they are not playing smart football as a cohesive team. As a result we’re not getting the full benefits from their talent. Cordy in the ruck, 7 hitouts and 7 possessions. And some easy forward entries for the opposition.

one example from late in the game: Walker gets an easy possession 40m out and kicks a good goal. Analyse the possession. He ran into an open space and marked a soft kick. The hole was deliberate and both kicker and receiver knew it would be there and played it perfectly.

Shortly before this the ball was coming into our forward line. Schache was moving his opponent right and pointing to his left at the hole he was opening. Obviously he wanted to lead into it. But the ball holder kicked high to a pack around Naughton.

There is a lack of cohesion bringing the ball into the forward zone. One plan, kick it high to Naughton. Yes there are occasional good deliveries, Bont and McRae can do it but it’s pretty rare and our forward efficiency is very low. That is why we are not seeing those extra goals.That’s why JUH is struggling, he has to go and get the ball because it’s not being given to him. That’s why he tries to outmark Naughton.

We need players playing to a well thought out and practised plan. I’m not seeing it. We need a better match day plan (now).

Being a bit closer to the action in Ballarat definitely showcased this issue for me. Our issue is not just personnel, it is the way we use them. Aaron Naughton so rarely gets quality delivery, Tex Walker did not have to crash packs, he could mark out on a lead. Their small forwards were also able to take unopposed marks. We shouldn’t just concentrate on “who we can get” but craft a game style around our strengths. Not one of our 2016 forward line were elite forwards but we weren’t expecting them to take speckies as the only option, and in the Eade years we made a virtue of a small mobile forward line.

Side note: there was a lot of finger pointing from the backs as to who should be doing what. Ironically I saw Daniel appear to rebuke Gardner for a down the line kick to a pack while we held the lead. Unfortunately Caleb minutes after coughed it up in a much worse fashion. I also noticed what poor 1-1 defenders Williams and Richards are. Is the balance in our defence right, even allowing for the Keath injury? We have a lot of guys who are there for attacking roles - Dale, Williams, Richards, Daniel - who aren’t strong defenders and from what I saw, once they went on the attack were bordering on lazy in getting back if it rebounded.

[bornadog]

I also noticed what poor 1-1 defenders Williams and Richards are. Is the balance in our defence right, even allowing for the Keath injury? We have a lot of guys who are there for attacking roles - Dale, Williams, Richards, Daniel - who aren’t strong defenders and from what I saw, once they went on the attack were bordering on lazy in getting back if it rebounded.

This is what I also picked up and discuss in another thread. We need to rethink these guys and their roles as they are leaking goals. Their three smalls killed us.

[Grantysghost]

This is what I also picked up and discuss in another thread. We need to rethink these guys and their roles as they are leaking goals. Their three smalls killed us.

Theyre there for the turnover game not because of their amazing defensive qualities.

The issue is they're not working hard enough, the game plan requires full time mania.
Someone else mentioned Melbourne can be poor for periods but their structure provides such a strong foundation they rarely are hurt during these times.

Our 8 goal run probably one of the rare occasions.

We need to strengthen the defense so we don't have to rely on manic ball hunting from our smalls to provide cover for our lack of structure.

I'd have a fair run at McKay from North.

[macca]

When I reflect on yesterday’s game I immediately find myself in the same hole I have been in for a long time.

The quality players are not in their best positions and they are not playing smart football as a cohesive team. As a result we’re not getting the full benefits from their talent. Cordy in the ruck, 7 hitouts and 7 possessions. And some easy forward entries for the opposition.

one example from late in the game: Walker gets an easy possession 40m out and kicks a good goal. Analyse the possession. He ran into an open space and marked a soft kick. The hole was deliberate and both kicker and receiver knew it would be there and played it perfectly.

Shortly before this the ball was coming into our forward line. Schache was moving his opponent right and pointing to his left at the hole he was opening. Obviously he wanted to lead into it. But the ball holder kicked high to a pack around Naughton.

There is a lack of cohesion bringing the ball into the forward zone. One plan, kick it high to Naughton. Yes there are occasional good deliveries, Bont and McRae can do it but it’s pretty rare and our forward efficiency is very low. That is why we are not seeing those extra goals.That’s why JUH is struggling, he has to go and get the ball because it’s not being given to him. That’s why he tries to outmark Naughton.

We need players playing to a well thought out and practised plan. I’m not seeing it. We need a better match day plan (now).

This has been a problem for a few years now and it’s rearing it’s ugly head now as a big problem . Great point
I don’t know why all our players lead to same position

Geelong fwd line , they protect their space and lead out into their patterns

We just seem to kick it always to Naughton

Kick it to JUH or Schache on his lead or open space and honor their lead.

We are a very easy team to score off the rebound

[Dancin' Douggy]

We were offered a first and second round pick for Dunks but wanted 2 1st rounders. Good luck getting anywhere near that now.
Should have taken it I reckon.

[Vred]

Coaching wise, I'd be looking at Dean Cox or Monty to take over Bevo's role if that's the way we're going, I'd throw offers out to Hird and try to lure Boyd back from Freo as well.
Forward coach, god, anyone who has experience playing forward would do, not a defender who's kicked 17 goals throughout his career...

I'd consider letting some of our HBF and Midfield go if it gave us the capital to get who we needed onto the park, Dunkley, JJ, Dale, Daniel, a mix of these guys for picks so we can try to trade in some KPD/Ruck to help fix our strucutre.

None of it will happen tho because Grant is in love with Bevo, and our CEO/President seem to be invisible, not to mention Bevo is contracted until the end of 23..

[Grantysghost]

How do we think Macrae is going as VC? With Marcus playing forward more he's the main man in the guts most of the time.
Do we see him as a natural leader?
Clearly an outstanding footballer, but I like many knowing his personality was surprised by that decision. Was also surprised it was appointment by decree and not a players vote.
I think Dunkley is probably the perfect guy he screams leadership.

[GVGjr]

How do we think Macrae is going as VC? With Marcus playing forward more he's the main man in the guts most of the time.
Do we see him as a natural leader?
Clearly an outstanding footballer, but I like many knowing his personality was surprised by that decision. Was also surprised it was appointment by decree and not a players vote.
I think Dunkley is probably the perfect guy he screams leadership.

Years back I've had a couple of Player sponsors encounters with Macrae who was fantastic to talk to and very polite but he was on the more quieter side of things and didn't appear to be a natural in terms of leadership. I can recall talking to one his sponsors a couple of years ago who was looking to move to another player because Macrae offered nothing at the dinners. That's quite a contrast but he does appear to be more naturally a quieter guy. While things change quickly though his promotion to a leadership did surprise me.

From the little I have seen he's doing OK and the fact that he's committed long term to the club seems to indicate he's invested.

A couple of years back Dunkley was in the leadership group but after his failed departure attempt he had to step back. If he signs up I'd say he is a natural for a return to the leadership group and he'd have the support of his best mate in Treloar and of course the captain. It all depends on if he recommits. One question about Dunks, he always seems overly happy and I wonder if it's time for him to project another more serious side?

[MrMahatma]

Coaching wise, I'd be looking at Dean Cox or Monty to take over Bevo's role if that's the way we're going, I'd throw offers out to Hird and try to lure Boyd back from Freo as well.
Forward coach, god, anyone who has experience playing forward would do, not a defender who's kicked 17 goals throughout his career...

I'd consider letting some of our HBF and Midfield go if it gave us the capital to get who we needed onto the park, Dunkley, JJ, Dale, Daniel, a mix of these guys for picks so we can try to trade in some KPD/Ruck to help fix our strucutre.

None of it will happen tho because Grant is in love with Bevo, and our CEO/President seem to be invisible, not to mention Bevo is contracted until the end of 23..

Grant’s “in love” with the guy who got us to a GF last year? You’re insinuating that Bevo is in his role cause people like him, not cause of performance? That’s actually quite the over reaction to a poor start to the season.

The sky isn’t falling. Reality is:
- Rd 1 we got beaten by the best (comfortably) team going around
- Rd 2 & 4 we lost cause players missed goals. Is that Bevo’s fault?
- Rd 6 we lost by 1 point, and no English, Hunter, Keath. Not to mention JJ and Bruce. Sucky loss but also, sucky situation.

Our list isn’t balanced enough, but I also think the circumstances of getting Treloar, JUH, and Darcy have tied our hands. We have the list we have, and while I’m sure Bevo is a big influence on the list, he actually isn’t the list manager.

[Grantysghost]

Years back I've had a couple of Player sponsors encounters with Macrae who was fantastic to talk to and very polite but he was on the more quieter side of things and didn't appear to be a natural in terms of leadership. I can recall talking to one his sponsors a couple of years ago who was looking to move to another player because Macrae offered nothing at the dinners. That's quite a contrast but he does appear to be more naturally a quieter guy. While things change quickly though his promotion to a leadership did surprise me.

From the little I have seen he's doing OK and the fact that he's committed long term to the club seems to indicate he's invested.

A couple of years back Dunkley was in the leadership group but after his failed departure attempt he had to step back. If he signs up I'd say he is a natural for a return to the leadership group and he'd have the support of his best mate in Treloar and of course the captain. It all depends on if he recommits. One question about Dunks, he always seems overly happy and I wonder if it's time for him to project another more serious side?

JT said the same when we were at a PS dinner. Macrae had to get up on stage and a few of the boys including Bont from memory were giving him a hard time. When I enquired why he said "he hates it" in reference to public speaking / attention. Which is fine of course.
I think maybe it's one of Bevo's moves to create a leader out of him I just hope it's not adding too much stress for him firstly and leaving a bit of a leadership void in the team secondly.

I did notice when he kicked a goal against the Tigers he touched the armband (he was wearing two) and looked up I wonder if he's lost someone close recently.

[bornadog]

Grant’s “in love” with the guy who got us to a GF last year? You’re insinuating that Bevo is in his role cause people like him, not cause of performance? That’s actually quite the over reaction to a poor start to the season.

The sky isn’t falling. Reality is:
- Rd 1 we got beaten by the best (comfortably) team going around
- Rd 2 & 4 we lost cause players missed goals. Is that Bevo’s fault?
- Rd 6 we lost by 1 point, and no English, Hunter, Keath. Not to mention JJ and Bruce. Sucky loss but also, sucky situation.

Our list isn’t balanced enough, but I also think the circumstances of getting Treloar, JUH, and Darcy have tied our hands. We have the list we have, and while I’m sure Bevo is a big influence on the list, he actually isn’t the list manager.

I agree on the over reactions. One thing I will say now, if Hird is ever employed by our club in any capacity, I am done.

[jeemak]

Did someone seriously suggest we get James Hird to the club or did I imagine it?

[GVGjr]

Did someone seriously suggest we get James Hird to the club or did I imagine it?

Lets just stay on planet Earth thanks Jee ;)

[Danjul]

Grant’s “in love” with the guy who got us to a GF last year? You’re insinuating that Bevo is in his role cause people like him, not cause of performance? That’s actually quite the over reaction to a poor start to the season.

The sky isn’t falling. Reality is:
- Rd 1 we got beaten by the best (comfortably) team going around
- Rd 2 & 4 we lost cause players missed goals. Is that Bevo’s fault?
- Rd 6 we lost by 1 point, and no English, Hunter, Keath. Not to mention JJ and Bruce. Sucky loss but also, sucky situation.

Our list isn’t balanced enough, but I also think the circumstances of getting Treloar, JUH, and Darcy have tied our hands. We have the list we have, and while I’m sure Bevo is a big influence on the list, he actually isn’t the list manager.l think this list is too short. It should go back to the Essendon game at the end of last year and then the explanation has to change.

we have lost 7 of the last 9 home and away games. An astonishing figure. Now to improve matters add in the finals. 8 of 13.

Which of these were the most difficult? Would have to say the finals - better teams and difficult circumstances. Suggests the talent factor is Okay. So what is the common thread through the losses to lower quality teams?

It has been the ruck. And particularly at centre bounces. I have been pleasantly surprised by English’s improvement this year but his hitouts are way down on what we expect to see from the genuine greats in that position. When he gets beaten the opposition has been getting a free ride into their attacking zone. Around the ground ( following) he is a spectacular success.

So do we try to minimise his weakness until he improves further, by using a tag? No.

Do we make sure we dominate the second ruck aspect of the game? No, we totally surrender that by trying to give the opposition another 20 easy clearances. Opposition teams are laughing. They know that they can exploit a weakness and they set up for it. They know that they have a chance to go from middle of the ground to goal quickly. In that Essendon game that highlighted our weakness they did it 9 times for 6 goals 3 behinds (AFL website). We saw it used against us in the grand final and We saw elements of it this weekend.

Instead of carrying one not so good and pretty ordinary small tank and inexperienced ruckman who can fix part of the problem some of the time we choose to lose them all. We lost to Port by one point, missing the opportunity for an easier path to the Grand Final. And to prove it wasn’t a fluke we lost to Adelaide by a point and put this season at risk.

Talk about ‘groundhog day’ !

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

I agree on the over reactions. One thing I will say now, if Hird is ever employed by our club in any capacity, I am done.
Same

[Dancin' Douggy]

same

Same

[jeemak]

To the OP, there's been some interesting points made. I think we need to start with the following this year:

1 x lockdown medium defender
1 x lockdown tall defender
1 x competent second ruck
1 x medium sized natural forward

I can see us losing Dunkley, Wallis and Hunter (just a gut feeling) at the end of the year so some cap space should open up. If we don't lose Hunter, then we need to think about who we can trade out to free up some space to attract reasonable quality in the above positions I've mentioned. JJ may well be someone we look at.

As for coaching I'd be looking at trying to get Reece Shaw (or similar) to the club as a highly competent/ experienced senior assistant who has been exposed to the spotlight of senior coaching and probably has empathy for whoever's in the role but is unlikely to want to take it on again. That'd be unthreatening to Bevo, or should be at least.

The reality is we need to give our new assistants some time to settle in, and prove themselves capable. It was always going to be a risk that losing two experienced coaches at a time when much of the talent had been stitched up would leave us exposed and behind the eight ball a bit. This isn't Bevo's fault.

As for Bevo, he's funnily maligned even though we all admit that irrespective of selection idiosyncrasies we have major structural issues with our list and have always had them under his tenure. He might well be cooked - I mean I wouldn't really know - but I don't know what people expect of him when he's dealing with two new assistants in key roles, a sizeable list of injuries and absences to key players, and a captain that is being hidden forward due to either issues with his body or fitness/ form (for whatever reason).

We always want to think there's something more to it (every organisation has its issues) but most of the time the most apparent and fundamental issues are the ones causing the problems.

[GVGjr]

As for Bevo, he's funnily maligned even though we all admit that irrespective of selection idiosyncrasies we have major structural issues with our list and have always had them under his tenure. He might well be cooked - I mean I wouldn't really know - but I don't know what people expect of him when he's dealing with two new assistants in key roles, a sizeable list of injuries and absences to key players, and a captain that is being hidden forward due to either issues with his body or fitness/ form (for whatever reason).

We always want to think there's something more to it (every organisation has its issues) but most of the time the most apparent and fundamental issues are the ones causing the problems.

Jee, for what it's worth I think Bevo's fine. He frustrates me with the way we use rucks and our lack of KP depth but he's a very good match day coach.

[jeemak]

Jee, for what it's worth I think Bevo's fine. He frustrates me with the way we use rucks and our lack of KP depth but he's a very good match day coach.

I understand the first bit about rucks, but not so sure the latter is his doing. I'm sure if you asked whether he would want someone AFL ready and of quality to be available as a genuine KPD he'd be cool with it.

[GVGjr]

I understand the first bit about rucks, but not so sure the latter is his doing. I'm sure if you asked whether he would want someone AFL ready and of quality to be available as a genuine KPD he'd be cool with it.

We just don't bat deep enough with the KPP in my opinion. If he really wanted more he would get it.

[Grantysghost]

We just don't bat deep enough with the KPP in my opinion. If he really wanted more he would get it.

Surely they work very closely I don't see them as two separate groups.
They would have constant list management meetings, and I'm sure Bevo has the final say.

[Happy Days]

We can think that we tried to get some depth by chatting to Soldo or whatever, but the bare facts are that we didn’t and other clubs did. Watching Max Lynch and Peter Ladhams going head to head right now is infuriating to see knowing they were both gettable and we opted to (allegedly) target a worse, contracted player before deciding that another season of Martin was a better option. The Saints had a guy turn up from the SANFL in December who we would kill for right now. The options were there we just didn’t pursue them.

Why on earth we wasted one of our scarce draft picks on McComb over someone who could possibly help this year I’ll never know. Not even a slight on McComb, just that his type was the actual last thing we needed.

[GVGjr]

Surely they work very closely I don't see them as two separate groups.
They would have constant list management meetings, and I'm sure Bevo has the final say.

He would have a lot of say in it.

[mjp]

we have lost 7 of the last 9 home and away games. An astonishing figure. Now to improve matters add in the finals. 8 of 13.

Which of these were the most difficult? Would have to say the finals - better teams and difficult circumstances. Suggests the talent factor is Okay. So what is the common thread through the losses to lower quality teams?



I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

[bornadog]

We just don't bat deep enough with the KPP in my opinion. If he really wanted more he would get it.

Forward or back?

Naughton
JUH
Bruce
Schache
Keath,
Gardner

Plus Darcy unknown

[Mofra]

Forward or back?

Naughton
JUH
Bruce
Schache
Keath,
Gardner

Plus Darcy unknown
Given Marra & Darcy are developing, Keath injury prone since age 17, Bruce out with an ACL... that would have to be the thinnest KPP group in the AFL.

[azabob]

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

Firstly thanks for such an expansive post.

Out of the experts in the footy media only you and HB Meyers from the mongrel punt were questioning the recruitment of Treloar. My two questions are which midfielders would you look to trade and secondly why hasn’t the coaching group tried to fix the stat padding and one way running? Or do the coaching group not value a defensive mindset?

[Grantysghost]

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

https://media.giphy.com/media/xThtar0e9kO3WkwQ1O/giphy.gif

[bornadog]

Given Marra & Darcy are developing, Keath injury prone since age 17, Bruce out with an ACL... that would have to be the thinnest KPP group in the AFL.

Just asking what we need, forward or back.

[Grantysghost]

Just asking what we need, forward or back.

Back defintely. Look at Melbourne's KPF's

Ben Brown. Tom Mcdonald. Sam Weidemann.

[bornadog]

Back defintely. Look at Melbourne's KPF's

Ben Brown. Tom Mcdonald. Sam Weidemann.

McDonald dropped this week

[Grantysghost]

McDonald dropped this week
Are they all forwards? Yes. Mcdonald was a defender but been a forward for years.

[josie]

Thought provoking post mjp. The lack of accountability when other sides mids are off the leash is my biggest complaint, been happening for a while. Bevo seriously needs to think about tagging. It’s clear we are not as good as we thought we were in the midfield.

And there’s not much tall timber in the vfl side either. Our Achilles heel of not enough talls of high enough quality bites again. We just don’t seem to be able to develop and then hold good talls. If we lose English this will really compound the problem.

[GVGjr]

Forward or back?

Naughton
JUH
Bruce
Schache
Keath,
Gardner

Plus Darcy unknown

Bruce injured. We knew that.
JUH not ready yet, Darcy might need two season before he is ready. We should have known that.
That leaves Naughton, Schache Keath and Gardner.
Cordy doesn't make the list but he is a back-up ruckman.

English
Martin is struggling. We should have expected that.
Sweet hasn't displayed much this year but I remain hopeful.

[mjp]

Out of the experts in the footy media only you and HB Meyers from the mongrel punt were questioning the recruitment of Treloar.


OK - I'm not in the media but media in ALL sports chases the story.

Treloar is a very well known player and therefore a good story. Adding good players to your team is generally seen as a good thing.
I've just coached for a really long time. Players are happiest playing their role...they don't like shuffling around from week to week (though MOST can deal with it during a game - for example, "We need you to go to half back" or more simply, "GO TO HALF BACK"). During the week though, their friends and family and manager will be telling them how it isn't fair they aren't playing ... (insert position here). You need to tell the coach you should be playing ...'. They then complain to their team-mates - some of whom will also be disgruntled for whatever reason (players not getting a game are generally disgruntled on some level) and, well...if their team-mates fuel the fire...



My two questions are which midfielders would you look to trade

I don't really 'do' trades because I always believe that whichever team is bringing in the BEST player will do the best out of the deal. Trading - to use the example from 2020 - Dunks for 2x first round picks? I wouldn't want to do that as I suspect Dunks will be better than the 2x first round picks.




...secondly why hasn’t the coaching group tried to fix the stat padding and one way running? Or do the coaching group not value a defensive mindset?

We don't know that they haven't. They watch the games as well. Remember, a few weeks ago it was just our goal-kicking that was the problem!

[bornadog]

Are they all forwards? Yes. Mcdonald was a defender but been a forward for years.

So are you saying we need another tall forward on our list?

[bornadog]

Bruce injured. We knew that.
JUH not ready yet, Darcy might need two season before he is ready. We should have known that.
That leaves Naughton, Schache Keath and Gardner.
Cordy doesn't make the list but he is a back-up ruckman.

English
Martin is struggling. We should have expected that.
Sweet hasn't displayed much this year but I remain hopeful.

I know all that, but I was asking how many more do we need and do we need a backman or Forward. I know we need another ruck on the list.

Just a question, not disputing anything.

[bornadog]

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy.

Is this an assessment of this year, or last as well (ignoring the GF) ?

I think we didn't rate Adelaide and thought we don't lose in Ballarat, and this will be an easy win. Adelaide thought, the best way to stop these blokes is numbers around the ball and pressure, pressure pressure, and we didn't have a plan B.

[azabob]

We don't know that they haven't. They watch the games as well. Remember, a few weeks ago it was just our goal-kicking that was the problem!

Thanks mjp. I did know you were not in the media, didn’t mean to tar you with that brush!

My take on the coaches is they are happy with what the midfielders are doing otherwise one or two would’ve been dropped to the VFL.

[GVGjr]

I know all that, but I was asking how many more do we need and do we need a backman or Forward. I know we need another ruck on the list.

Just a question, not disputing anything.

I think a versatile tall and an extra ruckman is where I would invest in.

[bornadog]

I think a versatile tall and an extra ruckman is where I would invest in.

Ruck/Forward would be handy

[mjp]

Is this an assessment of this year, or last as well (ignoring the GF) ?


It's an assessment of the last 4 or 5 years. We lose games we shouldn't because we flirt with the footy and the opposition. We've lost games to Gold Coast, Carlton, a final to St Kilda...the list goes on. I don't think being a 'great side' is the most important thing to us...being a 'good side' but being a 'great player' seems more the balance we are going for.

[mjp]

Thanks mjp. I did know you were not in the media, didn’t mean to tar you with that brush!

My take on the coaches is they are happy with what the midfielders are doing otherwise one or two would’ve been dropped to the VFL.

...and play WHO?

[mjp]

I think a versatile tall and an extra ruckman is where I would invest in.

See - I don't want that.

I want a player with a clear 'bent' either way. A key forward or a key back - who knows his role and is comfortable with it.

A ruckman? Yeah. There is a draft every year...draft one every year.

[azabob]

...and play WHO?

This isn’t a new problem that has arisen over the last week or two so player availability isn’t why we are not making a change.

[FrediKanoute]

Did someone seriously suggest we get James Hird to the club or did I imagine it?

I coulnd't believe that I read that either. Thought maybe it was getting Shane Heard to the club mispelt

[GVGjr]

See - I don't want that.

I want a player with a clear 'bent' either way. A key forward or a key back - who knows his role and is comfortable with it.

A ruckman? Yeah. There is a draft every year...draft one every year.

I'm not sure that quite works either, we will just throw players into roles.
Lewis Young was around the mark of versatility we probably need but we wanted him to play ruck.
Schache has been on a wing, forward and back. Cordy forward, back and in the ruck.

I'd prefer a tallish defender and of course a ruckman.

[bornadog]

A ruckman? Yeah. There is a draft every year...draft one every year.

I have heard you say that every year and couldn't agree more.

We pickup hBF and Mids every year, why not some talls.

[mjp]

I'm not sure that quite works either, we will just throw players into roles.
Lewis Young was around the mark of versatility we probably need but we wanted him to play ruck.
Schache has been on a wing, forward and back. Cordy forward, back and in the ruck.

I'd prefer a tallish defender and of course a ruckman.

Good forwards play forward.
Good defenders play back.

Players who aren't quite good enough get thrown from one end to the other.

You can make you own decisions on what that means with regards a player like Young.

[Hotdog60]

I'd like to be a fly on the wall to see what happens when they review the tapes. Or do they review because that would be the time one on one to hold no punches. Do we have too many nice coaches and not enough to tell it how it is.

[jeemak]

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

Good post.

I've been questioning the leadership, discipline and ownership of the playing group for years. The lapses in these areas must be maddening to the MC.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's an assessment of the last 4 or 5 years. We lose games we shouldn't because we flirt with the footy and the opposition. We've lost games to Gold Coast, Carlton, a final to St Kilda...the list goes on. I don't think being a 'great side' is the most important thing to us...being a 'good side' but being a 'great player' seems more the balance we are going for.

Agreed - it's actually not dissimilar to GWS before 2016. The whole 'Ferrari' vibe. Essentially we have a midfield of guys who probably all think or want to be the #1 man. All shine no substance. On paper it looks unbeatable, in practice it just doesn't work because the best midfield is one that works together collectively for the betterment of the team and not the individual stat sheet

[BornInDroopSt'54]

We are a game and percentage out of the eight atm.

[WBFC4FFC]

It's a balancing act but we needed to play with more risk than what we did. The fact English was out made the kick down the lines hard to mark and control the footy.

English would have had 30 marks on the weekend if he played but then again, the Crows would have had to change their strategy in forcing the Bullies to kick along the wings to packs as a result. Was a huge out given the way he has improved this season.

Aside from the risk, a little more hunger/mongrel will help. They are trying and doing the one-percenters but just need a little spark to get the breaks happening their way. You make your own luck and this season they have not had much luck but they have not been daring enough either to date.

[FrediKanoute]

We are a game and percentage out of the eight atm.

No bad all things considered.....as bad as we have been we are a winning run away from being top 4.

[Grantysghost]

See - I don't want that.

I want a player with a clear 'bent' either way. A key forward or a key back - who knows his role and is comfortable with it.

A ruckman? Yeah. There is a draft every year...draft one every year.

Just a clear back it's not hard.

[Grantysghost]

No bad all things considered.....as bad as we have been we are a winning run away from being top 4.

Say what now. Top 4 is nigh on impossible.

Would need to win 13 of 16?

[GVGjr]

Say what now. Top 4 is nigh on impossible.

Would need to win 13 of 16?

Top 6 is still in play though but we will need to get a rattle on. Essendon game is now very important.

[GVGjr]

Good forwards play forward.
Good defenders play back.

Players who aren't quite good enough get thrown from one end to the other.

You can make you own decisions on what that means with regards a player like Young.

I sort of agree, the players that are getting thrown around is because we don't have depth in the positions they need to cover.

[Mantis]

Top 6 is still in play though but we will need to get a rattle on. Essendon game is now very important.

The Adelaide game was the important one and we played like millionaires.

We all expect us to flick a switch and away we go, but what are we basing this off? Names on a piece of paper?

[GVGjr]

The Adelaide game was the important one and we played like millionaires.

We all expect us to flick a switch and away we go, but what are we basing this off? Names on a piece of paper?

It's a good point, this needs to be a player led recovery.

[azabob]

The Adelaide game was the important one and we played like millionaires.

We all expect us to flick a switch and away we go, but what are we basing this off? Names on a piece of paper?

Yep, names on a piece of paper. We are now in a corner as we can't afford to drop any high profile players as the players in the VFL are not there.

[Happy Days]

I reckon we can drop one of the high profile defenders for Crozier and probably be about the same. Maybe if we drop one of the high profile defenders for Crozier we don’t turn it over 40m out from goal from a kick in with the game on the line.

[Danjul]

I reckon we can drop one of the high profile defenders for Crozier and probably be about the same. Maybe if we drop one of the high profile defenders for Crozier we don’t turn it over 40m out from goal from a kick in with the game on the line.

The game was only on the line because of the non backmen. I thought they held up well.

We have all seen Williams and Dale kick 50m goals. We could use some of that quick penetration permanently further up the ground.

At the moment there’s too much emphasis on chipping around on the backline, resulting in many interceptions and giving the opposition time to cover our forwards. A mistake on the backline is costly and obvious, and demands being dropped. Mistakes on the forward zones are far more frequent and quickly forgotten. A forward missing goals from 25 m simply brings calls to improve.

Need better foot skills all over the ground.

We don’t need to drop anyone but we can utilise their skills better. I suspect our backmen are not the source of the current problems.

[Happy Days]

The game was only on the line because of the non backmen. I thought they held up well.

We have all seen Williams and Dale kick 50m goals. We could use some of that quick penetration permanently further up the ground.

At the moment there’s too much emphasis on chipping around on the backline, resulting in many interceptions and giving the opposition time to cover our forwards. A mistake on the backline is costly and obvious, and demands being dropped. Mistakes on the forward zones are far more frequent and quickly forgotten. A forward missing goals from 25 m simply brings calls to improve.

Need better foot skills all over the ground.

We don’t need to drop anyone but we can utilise their skills better. I suspect our backmen are not the source of the current problems.

I’m by and large happy with the backline making due without our lead horse, but Daniel is seriously just going right now. All the flair from his game is gone and he’s making routine, costly mistakes seemingly every time he isn’t going down the line. Plus we gotta do *something* in response to that horrible performance at selection.

I’m guessing you want to play Sweet, which, sure. Draper is maybe the least skilled player I’ve ever seen and an actual idiot but he will run Martin all the way into the ground. Time to see what Sweet has got.

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.

[Go_Dogs]

It’s interesting that a side like Melbourne go and target Dunstan because they realise they had a great run with injuries and need depth in that area of the ground.

Meanwhile, we miss the opportunity to address our areas where the cupboard is bare. We didn’t need superstars (would’ve been nice) and could have targeted a player or two as coverage with a thought they’d play 5 - 8 games if needed. Instead we’ve got mature coverage in areas we probably didn’t need it and haven’t improved our list.

It’s time for Bont, Macrae and other leaders to step up and demand improved performance.

[mjp]

The game was only on the line because of the non backmen. I thought they held up well.


They held up 'pretty' well considering the number of entries.

However they were also responsible for the continued 'bang it down the line' defensive exit strategy we used (particular in q2 and q4 when the commentators indicated we were kicking with the aid of a breeze). So...yep, they defended well but I'm not 100% certain we can say the problems we had on the weekend weren't due to some of the actions/decisions made by the defensive group.

I guess the reality is you can't kick it where your team-mates AREN'T...at the same time, the player with the ball in hand is responsible for leading his team-mates to the ball and dictating the pattern of play. The player with the ball is the (temporary) king of the game...at least until they dispose of it!

[Scraggers]

I have sat down this morning and read this thread and really enjoyed the content. But I am confused about the talk of moving Bevo on. I have said before (and continue to say) he needs a senior assistant to bounce ideas off, even a protege to train up to one day take on a senior coaching position of his/her own team. But to consider moving him on? The year after we play in a GF???

As a reminder, Bevo has taken us to two Grand Finals in eight years. That's two more than Rocket, two more than Terry Wallace ... I go back to Bob Rose and Ted Whitten coaching us in the early 70s. No coach in that time took us to the GF. Why in God's name would we even remotely consider moving on our most successful coach in our long history?

As critical as people want to be of Bevo (media included), you cannot knock what he has done and will continue to do.

[Bulldog4life]

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

Even though he was a champion for all the players I have seen in the last 50 years G.Ablett jnr was a master of this.

[Bulldog4life]

We are a game and percentage out of the eight atm.

And played in 2 GF's in 6 years and won one. Not too bad of a run.

[Bulldog4life]

Just a clear back it's not hard.

Just like Naughty was. :)

[Boots]

I have sat down this morning and read this thread and really enjoyed the content. But I am confused about the talk of moving Bevo on. I have said before (and continue to say) he needs a senior assistant to bounce ideas off, even a protege to train up to one day take on a senior coaching position of his/her own team. But to consider moving him on? The year after we play in a GF???

As a reminder, Bevo has taken us to two Grand Finals in eight years. That's two more than Rocket, two more than Terry Wallace ... I go back to Bob Rose and Ted Whitten coaching us in the early 70s. No coach in that time took us to the GF. Why in God's name would we even remotely consider moving on our most successful coach in our long history?

As critical as people want to be of Bevo (media included), you cannot knock what he has done and will continue to do.

Further to this, it seems an article of faith that Bevo mobilises the team through long-term emotional connection. Take this with a grain of salt, but the interviews with players in A Wink from the Universe portray Bevo as a softly-softly 'player whisperer' - especially the interview with Easton Wood about how he became an intercept marker - all through a quiet word from Bevo trying to get him to play they way he felt right, and then moving him into the right spot after his skills started to blossom. He did the same thing with Picken, and Dale, and Williams... all because of a connection of trust with the players built up over time.

It seems hard to imagine a coach in the league who relies less on being 'hard' on players, and more on trust.

Imagine if we did get Clarkson, who didn't let his players wear long sleeves. Or someone like Buckley, who is smart but like ice with his players. Half the team would crumple and a significant proportion would want out. TBH I don't even think our boys could cope with a Goodwin after they've had Bevo - Goodwin also seems to have a hard streak Bevo just lacks.

Replacing Bevo is probably the only thing that isn't an option, unless we want to spend ages in a rebuild, St. Kilda or Carlton style. And we might be there anyway. The depth we had in 2016 is well and truly gone, and it's hard to see how we'll get it back without a serious rebuild.

It's hard to see how we didn't 'bet the farm' on a premiership when we kept Dunks and got Treloar, and we didn't win.

[Boots]

We are a game and percentage out of the eight atm.

Sure, but so are two other teams, and two more are only percentage out of the eight. It's harder to get back into the top 8 than it is to stay there.


No bad all things considered.....as bad as we have been we are a winning run away from being top 4.

I mean... that's never not true, of any team.


Top 6 is still in play though but we will need to get a rattle on. Essendon game is now very important.

It's VERY early in the season to have a "very important" game against a team we have a patchy record against, with more to prove than we have, and who can blow us off the park with manic effort alone.

I take the point fellas - need to stay positive. But I wouldn't bet on us making finals this year, and if we did I'd expect us to go out first week.

[1eyedog]

I am going to agree with you that the ruck is a major factor and I'm not going to comment much more except to say:

1/. I didn't like the recruitment of Martin. To me, if Brisbane couldn't keep him on the park then he simply couldn't stay fit...Combined with a player whose best footy was 100% in the rvm and, well, we've got what we recruited.
2/. By the time Sweet is ready this group will likely be done. I think we are looking 2024/25 not 22/23. I have hope for him though.

Setting that issue (the ruck) aside - we take teams for granted far too often. I wrote a post last year entitled "Our club was born in blood and boots" lamenting the effort we see from our bigger name players (at times). I feel like I am lambasted for criticising Macrae and his on-field body language whenever he is moved out of the centre square. Bont is blowing in and out like the wind. Smith has been amazing this year but is dead-set playing for 1-2 handball give + receive stats which is rubbish and my thoughts on the Treloar recruitment remain well known. Love him as a player, definitely best 22. Unfortunately he plays a position in which we already have strength when so many other areas needed bolstering.

In the Adelaide game - our reliance on inexperienced players in key positions really hurt us. Late in the game the ball was kicked forward to Jamarra who was in a 2-v-3 contest...but in front. His options were simple:
1/. Get it out of bounds, wait for the cavalry to arrive and live to fight another day.
2/. Roll the dice, keep it in by tap-tap-tapping it around and hoping for the best.

He chose option 2. He failed to recognise the importance of the moment (that's OK - he's played like 5 games) and Adelaide took the ball away and scored at the other end. Game.

Now - we can lament the loss of Bruce and blame the fact that Jamarra was the deepest and therefore the key target on injury. But I think that would be a mistake...because his MINDSET in this moment has been inherited from his team-mates.

I just think our mindset is ALL WRONG though. We treat the opposition with zero regard. Our mids zone off continuously, our forwards (exception of Naughton) go through the motions with regards applying pressure...as a result, our defenders are constantly chasing butt.

We give the opposition a look every week - our effort is not unacceptable by and large...but we don't play ruthless footy. We all want to play 'nice' footy, pretty footy...I still say we have too many who would rather LOOK good than BE good. I think our mids would all rather look at their name on the internet with a big number in the possession count than a 'W' in the win column. And I know when I say that (because I have before) I am told it isn't true and they are trying hard and don't I know there are AA players in there etc.

I know the guys I am talking about are magnificent players and I sincerely admire some of the things I have seen them produce on the footy field. But when Cripps runs around and does what he wants. When Ben Keys finishes with 33 (or whatever) and runs riot in the last q...when Petracca goes absolutely STUPID in the grand final (I mean, the GRAND FINAL) and not one player takes it upon themselves to actually DO SOMETHING about it, well, I think this means that there is something just a little bit awry with our outlook.

I'm rambling again now and I've probably ridden this horse into town too many times now to be taken seriously but if the keys to the 2016 win were the commitment shown by Morris and Liber on the defensive side of the game together with the marking of Boyd providing us a pathway out of D50, well, who is there to perform those crucial (but pretty fundamentally SIMPLE) acts in 2022?

The Adelaide loss doesn't worry me as such - it's one point and whilst they deserved the points we nearly pinched it. But the continued effort based lapses are 100% a pattern and it really is time for the players to acknowledge it and FIX it. Believe it or not, they need to fix this as individuals....as in, "I am going to do it" rather than making it a 'collective' solution...a collective answer to this question (effort and defensive accountability) means one thing to me - we have players who are trying to hide behind the group when each person needs to be held to account.

I'm struggling to find an answer to why we refuse to leave everything on the park week after week. I'm worried that what you're saying is right and I'm not sure (or I'm worried) that it's not as simple as recognising the issue and making a change. It feels like this is a deeper, systemic psychological problem and I'm looking for someone to blame. Is it really the players? Is it a lack of coaching support? Is it the coach himself?

Adelaide showed what a younger, less-talented team who are prepard to get their hands dirty away from home can achieve. We are very bruise free at the moment.

[Danjul]

I’m by and large happy with the backline making due without our lead horse, but Daniel is seriously just going right now. All the flair from his game is gone and he’s making routine, costly mistakes seemingly every time he isn’t going down the line. Plus we gotta do *something* in response to that horrible performance at selection.

I’m guessing you want to play Sweet, which, sure. Draper is maybe the least skilled player I’ve ever seen and an actual idiot but he will run Martin all the way into the ground. Time to see what Sweet has got.

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.
Wasn’t it Draper that gave the Essendon midfielders a dream run to goal at the end of the season last year. I can’t remember what changed to give us a win over them in the finals. But whatever it was I hope the same logic is used again.

[bornadog]

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.

I am beginning to doubt this bloke

[azabob]

I am beginning to doubt this bloke

Happy Days or Jordan Sweet?!?!

[Axe Man]

It's VERY early in the season to have a "very important" game against a team we have a patchy record against, with more to prove than we have, and who can blow us off the park with manic effort alone.

We have won 7 of the past 8 games v Essendon with an average winning margin of 53 points. Not really a patchy record. I also think we have more to prove than just about every other side at the moment. However it is difficult to have much confidence going into this week with the way we have been playing so far this season.

[Danjul]

I’m by and large happy with the backline making due without our lead horse, but Daniel is seriously just going right now. All the flair from his game is gone and he’s making routine, costly mistakes seemingly every time he isn’t going down the line. Plus we gotta do *something* in response to that horrible performance at selection.

I’m guessing you want to play Sweet, which, sure. Draper is maybe the least skilled player I’ve ever seen and an actual idiot but he will run Martin all the way into the ground. Time to see what Sweet has got.

EDIT - I just checked the VFL stats and saw that Sweet got bodied by “Fraser Thurlow”, who it seems was delisted by Essendon in 2014 without playing a game. Maybe we stick with Martin.

I’m not expecting much from Sweet until he gets half a dozen consecutive games in the firsts. I’ve heard this and similar applied to others.

When I looked at the AFL website I see that he was the third best for Footscray with 93 points. For comparison Khamis had 72. When I looked on Woof Footscray thread I found a comment that said Sweet was OK and the Opposing ruckman was doing better when Khamis was in the ruck ( to be expected). I get the impression that Sweet’s game was also following Covid and concussion.

I think we must get games into Sweet and rest him on the forward line to take the second backman away from Naughton. We are putting games into others when their potential upside is minimal. I would also like to see Khamis tried in the forward line, apparently he has played well there recently.

[bornadog]

Happy Days or Jordan Sweet?!?!

Touche :D

[jeemak]

Happy Days or Jordan Sweet?!?!

Happy Days IS Jordan Sweet!

[mjp]

As critical as people want to be of Bevo (media included), you cannot knock what he has done and will continue to do.

I think Bevo is awesome and we are incredibly lucky to have him.

I get frustrated with his team selection decisions and seeming insistence that it is better to be 'clever' than just simply win, but he is a brilliant coach.

No 'Dogs supporter would deny this mate...

[Grantysghost]

I think Bevo is awesome and we are incredibly lucky to have him.

I get frustrated with his team selection decisions and seeming insistence that it is better to be 'clever' than just simply win, but he is a brilliant coach.

No 'Dogs supporter would deny this mate...

From your experience MJP can you see some signs of fatigue/over work? Maybe with the new assistants he's taken on more than his fair share.
He looks cooked to me, like he needs a month off in Noosa.

[GVGjr]

I think Bevo is awesome and we are incredibly lucky to have him.

I get frustrated with his team selection decisions and seeming insistence that it is better to be 'clever' than just simply win, but he is a brilliant coach.

No 'Dogs supporter would deny this mate...

That's pretty much as I see it, Bevo frustrates me on a few things but unless I was getting a Longmire I don't think I'd take the risk of losing him.

[Rocco Jones]

I think Bevo is awesome and we are incredibly lucky to have him.

I get frustrated with his team selection decisions and seeming insistence that it is better to be 'clever' than just simply win, but he is a brilliant coach.

No 'Dogs supporter would deny this mate...

Yep, my read as well.

[Scraggers]

I think Bevo is awesome and we are incredibly lucky to have him.

I get frustrated with his team selection decisions and seeming insistence that it is better to be 'clever' than just simply win, but he is a brilliant coach.

No 'Dogs supporter would deny this mate...

From an outsider looking in, does Bevo have one voice? the final voice? the only voice? when it comes to team selections? How much say does he have with recruiting? I am assuming he would salivate with the ability to have at his fingertips a Grundy style ruck or a Alex Silvani type backman. And like others, I'm hoping we haven't sold the farm to get JUH and Darcy (only time will tell if this was a master stroke or a catastrophic fail.

I have only met Bevo twice. The first time I met him was in 2017; he told me how much it hurt our team to lose Hamling. I'm sure it would be the exact same conversation about Marcus Adams right now too.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That's pretty much as I see it, Bevo frustrates me on a few things but unless I was getting a Longmire I don't think I'd take the risk of losing him.

What about if it was Clarko?

I've been a harsh critic of Bevo, but I can't deny his two results of a GF and a Premiership. Upon him signing on with us at the start we'd take that every minute of the day.

I've also met him multiple times and had a few conversations with him, he's a really likeable 1-on-1 guy.

Despite all that, I think it's worth investigating if he's the best man to take us forward given some of the signs have been concerning at best. I defended him in R1 but that, coupled with this demeanor of late, does have me wondering if he's spent.

[jeemak]

What about if it was Clarko?

I've been a harsh critic of Bevo, but I can't deny his two results of a GF and a Premiership. Upon him signing on with us at the start we'd take that every minute of the day.

I've also met him multiple times and had a few conversations with him, he's a really likeable 1-on-1 guy.

Despite all that, I think it's worth investigating if he's the best man to take us forward given some of the signs have been concerning at best. I defended him in R1 but that, coupled with this demeanor of late, does have me wondering if he's spent.

It's a great question, and putting aside the difficulty of the past two years - particularly during the lead into and during the 2021 finals. What would Clarko do with a list with holes all over it, injuries to key structural players, key/ depth players on personal leave, bereavements, two brand new assistant coaches and a team that couldn't hit the side of a barn with a shovel full of wheat for three out of six weeks?

He'd probably bash someone.

Now I'm being facetious, sort of....mainly I guess, though we can't have it both ways in our analysis of what's happening. Yes, Bevo might be struggling but is he struggling more than any other coach would in his circumstances?

[Grantysghost]

It's a great question, and putting aside the difficulty of the past two years - particularly during the lead into and during the 2021 finals. What would Clarko do with a list with holes all over it, injuries to key structural players, key/ depth players on personal leave, bereavements, two brand new assistant coaches and a team that couldn't hit the side of a barn with a shovel full of wheat for three out of six weeks?

He'd probably bash someone.

Now I'm being facetious, sort of....mainly I guess, though we can't have it both ways in our analysis of what's happening. Yes, Bevo might be struggling but is he struggling more than any other coach would in his circumstances?

The horrendous Wallis family incident aside isn't this part and parcel of the game?

He must bear some responsibility for the list. He just has to.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's a great question, and putting aside the difficulty of the past two years - particularly during the lead into and during the 2021 finals. What would Clarko do with a list with holes all over it, injuries to key structural players, key/ depth players on personal leave, bereavements, two brand new assistant coaches and a team that couldn't hit the side of a barn with a shovel full of wheat for three out of six weeks?

He'd probably bash someone.

Now I'm being facetious, sort of....mainly I guess, though we can't have it both ways in our analysis of what's happening. Yes, Bevo might be struggling but is he struggling more than any other coach would in his circumstances?

He's done a remarkable job with our club, especially in trying times - 2021 no better of an example. I'm not sure even Clarko could have got the same result last year after our H & A capitulation. Had we won the flag, it probably would have trumped 2016.

My question is not so much on what has been done, or if Bevo is a good coach. He is. Not a perfect one - no such thing exists - but my question is, after 8 years he looks and sounds tired. It happens to every successful coach, so respectfully ... Is an 8-year Bevo the best man to take us forward, or is a possibility refreshed Clarko (or Buckley)?

I hope we're asking that question of ourselves at the very least.

[MrMahatma]

The horrendous Wallis family incident aside isn't this part and parcel of the game?

He must bear some responsibility for the list. He just has to.

Responsibility for Naughton being one of the best forwards in the game? For Daniel and Dale moving to HBF and being All Australians? For perseverance with English to the point he’s, essentially, now having a break out season… I guess we could argue to toss over players. There’s a lot on our list who I don’t think are AFL quality and I think we seem to want to pick up a Footscray player each year and put them on the senior list… but without knowing how much of this Bevo drives, surely results over the journey matter most.

In all of these past few weeks, how many people on this forum have pointed the finger at Sam Power? Surely the main reason for our issues currently is list rather than coaching? And yet the list manager or whatever he is, gets ignored cause Bevo is, for some reason, an easier target? It’s a great thread but even the OP goes on and on about the list and doesn’t mention Power (apart from Sam being a religion and an avatar! :D)

I’m not saying Bevo isn’t influential in list management decisions, but he’s also the coach. So if the list is bad but the coaching is good, he’s doing something well. If the list isn’t right… what is Power doing right?

The WB website says of Power:

“ His role has overseen total list management strategy, including TPP management and compliance, player contracting, player acquisition and recruiting

Ahead of the 2021 season, Power’s portfolio expanded, to also include looking after Football Projects.”

Maybe it’s that last sentence we should be interrogating?
I actually don’t have an issue with Power. I think we’ve largely done well with the currency we have, and we’ve been conservative with trading, which I’d prob prefer than the stuff the Bombers and even Hawks have done in the past few years. But the anti Bevo chat is bizarre to me in the context of our actual issue… the list.

[GVGjr]

What about if it was Clarko?

I've been a harsh critic of Bevo, but I can't deny his two results of a GF and a Premiership. Upon him signing on with us at the start we'd take that every minute of the day.

I've also met him multiple times and had a few conversations with him, he's a really likeable 1-on-1 guy.

Despite all that, I think it's worth investigating if he's the best man to take us forward given some of the signs have been concerning at best. I defended him in R1 but that, coupled with this demeanor of late, does have me wondering if he's spent.

Not so sure about Clarko but I don't think I'd be as keen to try a new coach to the senior ranks given what we already have.
Things change of course but I'm in no real hurry to see him leave us.

[jeemak]

The horrendous Wallis family incident aside isn't this part and parcel of the game?

He must bear some responsibility for the list. He just has to.

Yes, as must Chris Grant and Ameet Baines as the escalation points in the organisation who ultimately should be making the calls to benefit the club if there's tension between Power and Bevo.

And to your question, yes, they are part and parcel of the game and they are very good reasons as to why we aren't playing good football! The reasons why we're not playing well are directly in front of us and we just have to accept them and hope the club figures out how best to deal with/ manage them.

[Grantysghost]

Yes, as must Chris Grant and Ameet Baines as the escalation points in the organisation who ultimately should be making the calls to benefit the club if there's tension between Power and Bevo.

And to your question, yes, they are part and parcel of the game and they are very good reasons as to why we aren't playing good football! The reasons why we're not playing well are directly in front of us and we just have to accept them and hope the club figures out how best to deal with/ manage them.

For thou art wise.

[jeemak]

He's done a remarkable job with our club, especially in trying times - 2021 no better of an example. I'm not sure even Clarko could have got the same result last year after our H & A capitulation. Had we won the flag, it probably would have trumped 2016.

My question is not so much on what has been done, or if Bevo is a good coach. He is. Not a perfect one - no such thing exists - but my question is, after 8 years he looks and sounds tired. It happens to every successful coach, so respectfully ... Is an 8-year Bevo the best man to take us forward, or is a possibility refreshed Clarko (or Buckley)?

I hope we're asking that question of ourselves at the very least.

And that's fair enough.

I'd hasten slowly with the likes of Clarkson or Buckley. Just because they were great or good where they were respectively, it's no guarantee they'll be as good or half as good in their next stints at different clubs.

[jeemak]

For thou art wise.

Bahahaha.......

[Grantysghost]

Bahahaha.......

For thou art?

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Yea verily

[Bulldog4life]

Yes, as must Chris Grant and Ameet Baines as the escalation points in the organisation who ultimately should be making the calls to benefit the club if there's tension between Power and Bevo.

And to your question, yes, they are part and parcel of the game and they are very good reasons as to why we aren't playing good football! The reasons why we're not playing well are directly in front of us and we just have to accept them and hope the club figures out how best to deal with/ manage them.

I am glad you said if as I haven't heard a peep there is any trouble between Bevo and Sam.

[Ghost Dog]

Quick Re-cap of Footy on Nine

This should be called the Nine-o show because everyone's name ends in 'O' bar Hutchy-o

Kane-o - If we lost Dunkley we wouldn't be a worse side.
Car-o, takes a big breath in, so she can fit as many bad things about Bevo in as she can.
Admire her effort for trying to dress in the easter egg green, but wish for god's sake she would keep it buttoned up.
( 'You're being sexist'! I hear you say, No, worse! a fashion policeman, lighten up ).

Loyyyydooo has a theory. We have no area of strength and nobody is scared of our midfield.
Hutchy-o - too many of one type of player ( fair point )

1113

1112


Kane-o to his credit at least finished with a few positive bits of play from Ballarat.

[Grantysghost]

Quick Re-cap of Footy on Nine

This should be called the Nine-o show because everyone's name ends in 'O' bar Hutchy-o

Kane-o - If we lost Dunkley we wouldn't be a worse side.
Car-o uses every breath to beat up Bevo, nothing new.
Loyyyydooo has a theory. We have no area of strength and nobody is scared of our midfield.
Hutchy-o - too many of one type of player ( fair point )

1113

1112


Kane-o to his credit at least finished with a few positive bits of play from Ballarat.

Thanks for the recap Ghosto.

[Happy Days]

That criticism would bother me if I thought there was any way that Caro actually bothered to watch a 1:45 Saturday game in Ballarat. She’s played the man on this ever since Bevo went after her family friend Tom Morris.

And don’t get me started on Lloyd all but begging Dunkley to move over to Essendon.

[Ghost Dog]

Caro doesn't watch games. She's a petty-crime reporter basically. Tutt-tutt the misdemeanors of my lovely boys.

[jeemak]

I am glad you said if as I haven't heard a peep there is any trouble between Bevo and Sam.

There should always be tension and robust discussion between what the list manager wants and what the coach wants. As long as it's respectful and a process is followed to resolve it's all fine.

[macca]

Caro doesn't watch games. She's a petty-crime reporter basically. Tutt-tutt the misdemeanors of my lovely boys.

that explains everything about the kwality of her commentory. She never says anything bad about Richmond.

[bornadog]

There should always be tension and robust discussion between what the list manager wants and what the coach wants. As long as it's respectful and a process is followed to resolve it's all fine.

I think there is a committee which includes Sam's team, Bevo, and Chris Grant and they discuss all draft and trading.

[mjp]

that explains everything about the kwality of her commentory. She never says anything bad about Richmond.

I'm not a fan but this isn't true.

She is into Richmond ON FIELD all the time - to be fair, what bad things have there been to say about the Tiges since 2017. If the Dusty show hadn't exploded in the 2020 GF maybe a few more I guess but they have been rock solid for a while now.

She has been very critical of a few things they have been doing this year, notably:

- High number of 50m penalties and general on-field discipline
- Lack of direction in selecting a captain and the '50 cents each way approach'.
- Refusal to change their on-field system to better suit the changes in personnel.

[Bulldog4life]

There should always be tension and robust discussion between what the list manager wants and what the coach wants. As long as it's respectful and a process is followed to resolve it's all fine.

I agree with this.

[Bulldog4life]

Quick Re-cap of Footy on Nine

This should be called the Nine-o show because everyone's name ends in 'O' bar Hutchy-o

Kane-o - If we lost Dunkley we wouldn't be a worse side.
Car-o, takes a big breath in, so she can fit as many bad things about Bevo in as she can.
Admire her effort for trying to dress in the easter egg green, but wish for god's sake she would keep it buttoned up.
( 'You're being sexist'! I hear you say, No, worse! a fashion policeman, lighten up ).

Loyyyydooo has a theory. We have no area of strength and nobody is scared of our midfield.
Hutchy-o - too many of one type of player ( fair point )

1113

1112


Kane-o to his credit at least finished with a few positive bits of play from Ballarat.

When Llyod played he was Lloydy. For some reason as he stepped into the media Gary Lyon started with the Lloydo. Seems to have stuck. Must seem more chummy to them.

[macca]

I'm not a fan but this isn't true.

She is into Richmond ON FIELD all the time - to be fair, what bad things have there been to say about the Tiges since 2017. If the Dusty show hadn't exploded in the 2020 GF maybe a few more I guess but they have been rock solid for a while now.

She has been very critical of a few things they have been doing this year, notably:

- High number of 50m penalties and general on-field discipline
- Lack of direction in selecting a captain and the '50 cents each way approach'.
- Refusal to change their on-field system to better suit the changes in personnel.

What about the Martin's chopstick incident ?

Off-field issues with Stack ?

I don't really want to be negative or raise these negatives , but my point is , I question how balanced is her reporting ?

[azabob]

What about the Martin's chopstick incident ?

Off-field issues with Stack ?

I don't really want to be negative or raise these negatives , but my point is , I question how balanced is her reporting ?

macca, a quick google search will show Wilson went hard and often at Martin RE his offield issues.

[azabob]

Common themes from posters in the last 24 hours; (rightly or wrongly)

Coaches box too slow to react when O’Brien was subbed off
List management shambles in our rucks and key defenders
Injuries and conditioning - why so many soft tissue injuries during training, warm ups and now game day
Individual performance V team performance

As a club why can we not achieve sustained success? After 2016 we dropped right away in 2017, 2018 and started to rise up again 2019, 2020 and 2021. It seems we now be following a similar trajectory.

This is Beveridges team now; he has had a hand in breaking down the list post 2016 and building it back up.

Do we have strong enough personalities in Chris Grand and Ameet Baines to ask the hard questions and demand answers from the football department from Luke Beveridge, Sam Power, Chris Bell, Matthew Innes? Demand answers other than the soft cap…

[azabob]

Further to this the whole club onfield womens and mens seniors and reserves are a complete mess.

[Grantysghost]

Common themes from posters in the last 24 hours; (rightly or wrongly)

Coaches box too slow to react when O’Brien was subbed off
List management shambles in our rucks and key defenders
Injuries and conditioning - why so many soft tissue injuries during training, warm ups and now game day
Individual performance V team performance

As a club why can we not achieve sustained success? After 2016 we dropped right away in 2017, 2018 and started to rise up again 2019, 2020 and 2021. It seems we now be following a similar trajectory.

This is Beveridges team now; he has had a hand in breaking down the list post 2016 and building it back up.

Do we have strong enough personalities in Chris Grand and Ameet Baines to ask the hard questions and demand answers from the football department from Luke Beveridge, Sam Power, Chris Bell, Matthew Innes? Demand answers other than the soft cap…

Grant doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want any disruption.
Not saying that's bad or good but he's a conservative bloke.

[Swoop]

Grant doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would want any disruption.
Not saying that's bad or good but he's a conservative bloke.

Can you support your view with any evidence?

[Grantysghost]

Can you support your view with any evidence?
No.
Pure speculation.

[Swoop]

No.
Pure speculation.

He strikes me as a real risk taker. In my opinion, he's the kind of guy to eat two day old chicken.

[Grantysghost]

He strikes me as a real risk taker. In my opinion, he's the kind of guy to eat two day old chicken.
Haha. Gold.

[jeemak]

Common themes from posters in the last 24 hours; (rightly or wrongly)

Coaches box too slow to react when O’Brien was subbed off
List management shambles in our rucks and key defenders
Injuries and conditioning - why so many soft tissue injuries during training, warm ups and now game day
Individual performance V team performance

As a club why can we not achieve sustained success? After 2016 we dropped right away in 2017, 2018 and started to rise up again 2019, 2020 and 2021. It seems we now be following a similar trajectory.

This is Beveridges team now; he has had a hand in breaking down the list post 2016 and building it back up.

Do we have strong enough personalities in Chris Grand and Ameet Baines to ask the hard questions and demand answers from the football department from Luke Beveridge, Sam Power, Chris Bell, Matthew Innes? Demand answers other than the soft cap…

The piece around injuries is the one I want focused on as swiftly as possible.

The coaching team/ MC will always have excuses/ reasons for doing the things they do and it's hard to unpick or argue without overstepping the mark and putting noses out of joint mid year, while recruiting is a bit of a slower burn and hugely subjective and influenced by external factors. However, the casualty rate is something that must be addressed pronto.

Whether it's fair, unfair or neither the healthy teams have won flags in recent times. Even we were healthy in 2016 when we put our charge together albeit largely for the first time for the year (we're cheats, we are). We need to give our coaching team/ MC every opportunity to succeed by having as full a compliment as possible and take away any excuses for poor performance.

[azabob]

Grantysghost made an interesting point in another thread that we only make off field changes when they are forced.
Take that for what you will.

[GVGjr]

Can you support your view with any evidence?

I've had the privilege of talking to Chris grant a couple of times and he has a calm but determined passion for the club.
I don't think he would step away from tough decisions.

[Grantysghost]

I've had the privilege of talking to Chris grant a couple of times and he has a calm but determined passion for the club.
I don't think he would step away from tough decisions.

Once he runs it past Bevo ;)

[Mantis]

I've had the privilege of talking to Chris grant a couple of times and he has a calm but determined passion for the club.
I don't think he would step away from tough decisions.

Which tough decisions have been made in Chris's tenure?

I know it's hard to know what happens behind closed doors, but it seems not a lot has changed in his time as the footy boss.

[bornadog]

Which tough decisions have been made in Chris's tenure?

I know it's hard to know what happens behind closed doors, but it seems not a lot has changed in his time as the footy boss.

Trading Stringer, Dahlhaus for starters.

[Rocco Jones]

Not saying this is everything but the club has made two Grand Finals and won a flag in Grant's six years as Footy Director. The true definition of being conservative is about staying on a path that's worked. I understand frustrations, however I can also understand why he would be conservative.

We're a bloody weird club to follow in the Bevo/Grant years. As frustrating as it can get whilst delivering success like no other era in the club's history.

[Grantysghost]

Not saying this is everything but the club has made two Grand Finals and won a flag in Grant's six years as Footy Director. The true definition of being conservative is about staying on a path that's worked. I understand frustrations, however I can also understand why he would be conservative.

We're a bloody weird club to follow in the Bevo/Grant years. As frustrating as it can get whilst delivering success like no other era in the club's history.

Maintaining the status quo pretty much. Conserve.

Unless it's the climate and "conserve" ation with many "conserve" atives.

But yes spot on. Why would he disrupt when things overall have been very good.

There is an old business adage that standing still is going backwards too.

I'm not sure which part we fit into youre so right when you say it's a strange era. The best strange ever!

[Rocco Jones]

I’m not defending Grant/club btw. Just raising a point. If we won a flag and had 5 ACLs in that year, I’d hope we’d look into why we had so many.

[mjp]

I think we are all frustrated (I would put another word in front of frustrated to describe how I'm feeling) and I have honestly felt that way since the midway point of last year...and for the majority of 2018/19/20. Yes, we made the GF last year - a magnificent effort - but it really was achieved on the back of two outstanding performances (BL and PA) after what have been 2+ months of 'ordinary'.

Our challenges as a team are as follows:
- There are times when our effort is not up to scratch and we lose.
Think, finals against the Saints and Giants, game in Ballarat vs Adelaide, the Peter Wright game last year, Carlton game in 2020 etc.

- There are times when our effort is generally MAGNIFICENT and our structural shortcomings mean we still fall short.
Think, Geelong last year, Port in Adelaide the year before.

I don't think there is actually anything we can do about the second point. Our draft capital has been severely restricted the past two years due to the Darcy/JUH selections. We HAD to take those players - I get it - but it has hurt the 'now'. I don't want to re-legislate the Steph Martin selection but I still see it as I did at the time - a massive mistake to recruit a player so far past his prime - even so, I wonder what would have happened had we selected another player...would we be playing him? What if we HAD chased someone to back-up Keath? Would we all be pulling our hair out because a backup KPD isn't up to it and is conceding goals?

The first point though? If we had the effort we got on Friday night against Adelaide, well...we beat Adelaide. This is the one that I'm battling with. Why does it take a situation like that - Bont out, Hunter out etc - for the players to acknowledge they really need to bring effort level "A+".

Part of me is VERY encouraged by the effort last Friday - we could very easily have turned up our toes and conceded...they players fought to the very end and if they can sustain that, it will hold them in good stead moving forward...the other part of me? We just lack depth in key areas. No side can cover for a Bontempelli being out...but we HAVE to be able to cover for Tim O'Brien. Will we be able to do that? I guess we are about to find out.

[Mantis]

Trading Stringer, Dahlhaus for starters.

I would've thought they were no brainers given the level of performances (extremely low) and disruption they caused within the group.

Keep going....

[azabob]

Have Treloar and Dunkley stood up enough week to week?

Especially considering Bontempelli has played a few games forward and missed one entirely.

I think it is also very evident that Bontepelli is our most important player ahead of English, Keath and Naughton.

[Grantysghost]

Have Treloar and Dunkley stood up enough week to week?

Especially considering Bontempelli has played a few games forward and missed one entirely.

I think it is also very evident that Bontepelli is our most important player ahead of English, Keath and Naughton.

Treloar for mine has been a dissapointment (ok qualify it by he's been good not great) . We've converted him to purely outside (he's certainly lost weight) and I'm not sure that's all he's capable of.
This guy should be making AA sides. Not sure he ever has.

Dunkley.... Maybe he's already peaked. This is what you get and it's pretty good but he's a B grade at best. Luke Parker type. Hard to complain about that.

[macca]

I think we are all frustrated (I would put another word in front of frustrated to describe how I'm feeling) and I have honestly felt that way since the midway point of last year...and for the majority of 2018/19/20. Yes, we made the GF last year - a magnificent effort - but it really was achieved on the back of two outstanding performances (BL and PA) after what have been 2+ months of 'ordinary'.

Our challenges as a team are as follows:
- There are times when our effort is not up to scratch and we lose.
Think, finals against the Saints and Giants, game in Ballarat vs Adelaide, the Peter Wright game last year, Carlton game in 2020 etc.

- There are times when our effort is generally MAGNIFICENT and our structural shortcomings mean we still fall short.
Think, Geelong last year, Port in Adelaide the year before.

I don't think there is actually anything we can do about the second point. Our draft capital has been severely restricted the past two years due to the Darcy/JUH selections. We HAD to take those players - I get it - but it has hurt the 'now'. I don't want to re-legislate the Steph Martin selection but I still see it as I did at the time - a massive mistake to recruit a player so far past his prime - even so, I wonder what would have happened had we selected another player...would we be playing him? What if we HAD chased someone to back-up Keath? Would we all be pulling our hair out because a backup KPD isn't up to it and is conceding goals?

The first point though? If we had the effort we got on Friday night against Adelaide, well...we beat Adelaide. This is the one that I'm battling with. Why does it take a situation like that - Bont out, Hunter out etc - for the players to acknowledge they really need to bring effort level "A+".

Part of me is VERY encouraged by the effort last Friday - we could very easily have turned up our toes and conceded...they players fought to the very end and if they can sustain that, it will hold them in good stead moving forward...the other part of me? We just lack depth in key areas. No side can cover for a Bontempelli being out...but we HAVE to be able to cover for Tim O'Brien. Will we be able to do that? I guess we are about to find out.

I am frustrated, but more lamenting how terrible complex getting players on the park ( injuries have been really bad luck) and in form is nowdays. If you told me last year that Carlton will be a top 4 team this year, it would be easiest joke to laugh at.

We have lost some good mature players during in that 2016 era : Morris, Picken, Hamling , Roughead ( subjective about good) , Clay smith ( scared daylights opposition ) , Jong (beast) , Suckling ( long kicks) , some of them would be in their prime now like Hamling, Roughead, Smith, Jong if injuries did not hit them. Injuries to our KPD has been terrible and the cupboard is truly bare.

Its the 3-4 year players on the list which are not filling the talent void mixed with senior players like Treloar, Dunkley not being able to dominate games in absence of Champ Bonts last week as an example. Freo is interesting example , they doing well now with their younger crop of players, Its extraordinary they lost Cerra . It this age range of players which will bring improvement on our list.

I am going to write this season off now and its time MC looks at who should be on the list for 2023 and test all them out.


The JUH and Darcy picks might just hurt as we could have used those picks to get quality in the mid field. All this is just pure speculation and easy to talk in hindsight , as recruiting is an inexact science and player development is complex.

I want to see Buku play forward for the rest of the season and play in one position.

I want to see West get a solid string of games to see if he can stay on our list .

I want to see Schache down back and stay there in one position.

Bedendo, Cleary, Parker, get a few games into them this year, to show them where they are at and what gap they need to bridge.

Mid season recruitment- find a good ruckman somewhere in the WAFL, VFL, QAFL ... there has to be someone available ? Can we use a pick here ?

[bornadog]

I would've thought they were no brainers given the level of performances (extremely low) and disruption they caused within the group.

Keep going....

Still a big decision to let go premiership players with their talent. Many clubs wouldn't.

I can't keep going because, what other decisions needed to be made? I Don't have any insight into the footy dept.

[Grantysghost]

Still a big decision to let go premiership players with their talent. Many clubs wouldn't.

I can't keep going because, what other decisions needed to be made? I Don't have any insight into the footy dept.

Vflw does anyone know what's going on there. Is that under Grant's portfolio?
It's an incredible failure.

[bornadog]

Vflw does anyone know what's going on there. Is that under Grant's portfolio?
It's an incredible failure.

That is under Debbie Lee

[Grantysghost]

That is under Debbie Lee

I don't get how it can happen. My local side is the best in the west atm it's not that hard to recruit decent players.

[Grantysghost]

That is under Debbie Lee

Actually I think she reports to Chris.

[FrediKanoute]

I think we are all frustrated (I would put another word in front of frustrated to describe how I'm feeling) and I have honestly felt that way since the midway point of last year...and for the majority of 2018/19/20. Yes, we made the GF last year - a magnificent effort - but it really was achieved on the back of two outstanding performances (BL and PA) after what have been 2+ months of 'ordinary'.

Our challenges as a team are as follows:
- There are times when our effort is not up to scratch and we lose.
Think, finals against the Saints and Giants, game in Ballarat vs Adelaide, the Peter Wright game last year, Carlton game in 2020 etc.

- There are times when our effort is generally MAGNIFICENT and our structural shortcomings mean we still fall short.
Think, Geelong last year, Port in Adelaide the year before.

I don't think there is actually anything we can do about the second point. Our draft capital has been severely restricted the past two years due to the Darcy/JUH selections. We HAD to take those players - I get it - but it has hurt the 'now'. I don't want to re-legislate the Steph Martin selection but I still see it as I did at the time - a massive mistake to recruit a player so far past his prime - even so, I wonder what would have happened had we selected another player...would we be playing him? What if we HAD chased someone to back-up Keath? Would we all be pulling our hair out because a backup KPD isn't up to it and is conceding goals?

The first point though? If we had the effort we got on Friday night against Adelaide, well...we beat Adelaide. This is the one that I'm battling with. Why does it take a situation like that - Bont out, Hunter out etc - for the players to acknowledge they really need to bring effort level "A+".

Part of me is VERY encouraged by the effort last Friday - we could very easily have turned up our toes and conceded...they players fought to the very end and if they can sustain that, it will hold them in good stead moving forward...the other part of me? We just lack depth in key areas. No side can cover for a Bontempelli being out...but we HAVE to be able to cover for Tim O'Brien. Will we be able to do that? I guess we are about to find out.

I agree MJP and think what you have said makes a lot of sense. The caveat though is that its not just covering O'Brien, its covering Keath as well as O'Brien. You run through the injury list and all are arguably best 25 or just about (Darcy excepted). We aren't just reaching to our 25th or 26th player, but we are reaching way down into our 30th and 31st player. That's touch to cover.

I too like the endeavour- could easily have rolled over in the last 10 mins and lost the game by 40 or 50 points.

[azabob]

So it looks like we are back here again.

Same questions; yet no real clear answers.

Senior players not standing up in the first quarter; questionable match committee decisions, questionable match ups.

What is clear we are a mid table team

Injuries are definitely not an excuse for last night and have not been an excuse during the year.

[G-Mo77]

I actually started to look ahead and was thinking, maybe? Last night kind of squashed that. I really can't see us getting enough W's from here on out to make the 8 and if we do manage to squeeze in I doubt we'll get through anyone in there.

We really need to review the coaching staff, match committee and any other game day tactician before 2023. Sitting on our hands is not an option IMO.

We need to review our midfield, too many of the same type. not enough grunt. Libba is our MVP in there, he was the reason the team started working their way back. His will and effort is elite, Macrae is a similar mold but outside of that when the chips are down the rest seem to be down and don't lift. I guess this comes under leadership as well?

Forward half is a debacle, selections can help here in some way but it's not going to stop having so many in the forward 50 and not getting a clear run at the ball. Our game plan is get it in there in anyway possible, keep it there and squeeze a goal out of it. How many times have we seen Naughton leading for the ball and someone gets in his way? Who ever is the coach of the forward half, I think it's the work experience kid, needs to be terminated at the end of this season.

We're still in this so we need to fight this out but at the same time we need to put some work into some younger players, Marra, Cleary, Sweet, Jones I'd really like to see play many times. I'd also like to give Shache a chance again and see if he's worth persisting with beyond 2022. It's not all doom and gloom but it's really hard not to be disappointed.

[Vred]

Somehow we have developed a coaching system and game structure that leaves us men down in both the forward 50 and defensive 50.

We are out manned at both ends of the ground, continuously, every game.

I don’t know how Bevo and co have come up with this stellar game plan but it is truely a marvel to watch.

[whythelongface]

I actually started to look ahead and was thinking, maybe? Last night kind of squashed that. I really can't see us getting enough W's from here on out to make the 8 and if we do manage to squeeze in I doubt we'll get through anyone in there.

We really need to review the coaching staff, match committee and any other game day tactician before 2023. Sitting on our hands is not an option IMO.

We need to review our midfield, too many of the same type. not enough grunt. Libba is our MVP in there, he was the reason the team started working their way back. His will and effort is elite, Macrae is a similar mold but outside of that when the chips are down the rest seem to be down and don't lift. I guess this comes under leadership as well?

Forward half is a debacle, selections can help here in some way but it's not going to stop having so many in the forward 50 and not getting a clear run at the ball. Our game plan is get it in there in anyway possible, keep it there and squeeze a goal out of it. How many times have we seen Naughton leading for the ball and someone gets in his way? Who ever is the coach of the forward half, I think it's the work experience kid, needs to be terminated at the end of this season.

We're still in this so we need to fight this out but at the same time we need to put some work into some younger players, Marra, Cleary, Sweet, Jones I'd really like to see play many times. I'd also like to give Shache a chance again and see if he's worth persisting with beyond 2022. It's not all doom and gloom but it's really hard not to be disappointed.

Great post. Agree - not all doom and gloom and a lot to look forward to given the age bracket of some of ‘potential’ gun players eg. JUH, Darcy along with Naughton, English, Weightman, Buku, West, Richards - some quality. Even the likes of Dale, Schache, Dunkley are relatively young. But we really need to reach this potential whilst the likes of Bont, Macrae, Treloar are at the top of their game. We also need to add some defensive talent to the mix.

[Grantysghost]

I actually started to look ahead and was thinking, maybe? Last night kind of squashed that. I really can't see us getting enough W's from here on out to make the 8 and if we do manage to squeeze in I doubt we'll get through anyone in there.

We really need to review the coaching staff, match committee and any other game day tactician before 2023. Sitting on our hands is not an option IMO.

We need to review our midfield, too many of the same type. not enough grunt. Libba is our MVP in there, he was the reason the team started working their way back. His will and effort is elite, Macrae is a similar mold but outside of that when the chips are down the rest seem to be down and don't lift. I guess this comes under leadership as well?

Forward half is a debacle, selections can help here in some way but it's not going to stop having so many in the forward 50 and not getting a clear run at the ball. Our game plan is get it in there in anyway possible, keep it there and squeeze a goal out of it. How many times have we seen Naughton leading for the ball and someone gets in his way? Who ever is the coach of the forward half, I think it's the work experience kid, needs to be terminated at the end of this season.

We're still in this so we need to fight this out but at the same time we need to put some work into some younger players, Marra, Cleary, Sweet, Jones I'd really like to see play many times. I'd also like to give Shache a chance again and see if he's worth persisting with beyond 2022. It's not all doom and gloom but it's really hard not to be disappointed.

Spangher, so close enough. Don't think he'd coached before? Was in an operations role at Collingwood.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Bit of a throw away line, but I'd love Clarkson.

I really don't rate Bevo tactically. Amazing motivator, poor tactically. The amount of times our supposed contending list gets outplayed / outcoached is ridiculous.

[jeemak]

So it looks like we are back here again.

Same questions; yet no real clear answers.

Senior players not standing up in the first quarter; questionable match committee decisions, questionable match ups.

What is clear we are a mid table team

Injuries are definitely not an excuse for last night and have not been an excuse during the year.

I agree they weren't last night, but earlier in the season not having a consistent blend of players definitely hampered us.

[jeemak]

Bit of a throw away line, but I'd love Clarkson.

I really don't rate Bevo tactically. Amazing motivator, poor tactically. The amount of times our supposed contending list gets outplayed / outcoached is ridiculous.

We all agree we lack personnel in key areas, and are too same same in others, but we just made a grand final with a coach who is a poor tactician? Not sure that stacks up.

And we can't have it both ways and say the coach is a great motivator, but it's not on the players for going out there asleep too often.

[Happy Days]

Bevo is a jet coach who is also a lightning rod because of who he is and how he handles basic interactions.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We all agree we lack personnel in key areas, and are too same same in others, but we just made a grand final with a coach who is a poor tactician? Not sure that stacks up.

I don't think it's hard to compute, with respect. If Bevo was a great tactical coach, why have we never finished top 4? Why did we fall from the sky after a flag, and fall again after making a Grand Final?

Our list has certainly been good enough, even despite the diluted talent pool with an 18 team competition.

As I said, great motivator - which is why he's got us to two GFs - his ability to sell a narrative and get players to buy in physically and emotionally is brilliant, but for me there are just far too many occasions we shoot ourself in the foot even against rubbish opposition.

Bevo has spoken about the connection between mids and forwards for years. Has the system actually improved?

We/he rely solely on midfield dominance for the most part.

[jeemak]

I think we can get a bit clever with our selections, but most of the time they're peripheral.

The big issues are we lack quality in defence and quality forward (including a forward/ ruck). Because of that we have to rely too much on team defence, and too much on spreading the goal kicking across too many players.

Our list management team (including Bevo) have to be better and get some genuinely talented players in to fill these clear deficiencies. The players need to take responsibility for showing up to work each week and doing the bare minimum consistently which they fail to do time and again.

[jeemak]

I don't think it's hard to compute, with respect. If Bevo was a great tactical coach, why have we never finished top 4? Why did we fall from the sky after a flag, and fall again after making a Grand Final?

Our list has certainly been good enough, even despite the diluted talent pool with an 18 team competition.

As I said, great motivator - which is why he's got us to two GFs - his ability to sell a narrative and get players to buy in physically and emotionally is brilliant, but for me there are just far too many occasions we shoot ourself in the foot even against rubbish opposition.

Bevo has spoken about the connection between mids and forwards for years. Has the system actually improved?

We/he rely solely on midfield dominance for the most part.

I guess this is the bit I disagree with. The players mentally fell away post 2016 and injuries hit. We then went into a rebuild and haven't recruited a balanced spread of talent.

We take a system approach to the game because of the personnel we have at our disposal. When the players buy-in the system works and as we saw last year worked really well for most of the year - and teams find it really hard to play against. You can't be poor tactically for that to happen, especially again, with the clear deficiencies we have in personnel.

Anyway, I don't think we'll agree and I respect your point of view.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Using last night's game as an example, tactically, Geelong got everything they want;

- Keath, a more of a lumbering type, v the hard running Cameron
- Gardner, critically undersized, v Hawkins
- Stanley/Blicavz v Khamis at times
- Stewart playing on Weightman and McNeil in the first quarter

We got beat by what we know. Yes, our effort was left in the rooms, but we continually make decisions like the above which only make it harder for us.

Just on the list, does anybody really believe Bevo doesn't have a large say in how it's brought together? To give him an excuse that our list is unbalanced is to believe he isn't one of the main culprits. He has a BIG say in our list - whether that's moving on Talia, Stringer and Roughead or recruiting Gowers and McComb.

[Grantysghost]

What are our tactics?

+1, get it in, keep it in, turnover or kick point and get scored against.

I rate Bevo too but he needs some experienced outside voices.
In my job my work is constantly reviewed by peers and it makes me better. If I insulate I make the same mistakes over and over.
I'd love an experienced senior assistant to come in from another system. Boyd would be perfect.

[GVGjr]

We all agree we lack personnel in key areas, and are too same same in others, but we just made a grand final with a coach who is a poor tactician? Not sure that stacks up.

And we can't have it both ways and say the coach is a great motivator, but it's not on the players for going out there asleep too often.

I'm not sure that we all agree though because typically during the trade period there is a strong push back when it's pointed out we should be linked to KPP or ruckman. Even suggesting we needed a short term replacement for the Bruce injury wasn't regarded as a priority.
Once the season starts and gaps in the depth of those key positions starts to appear the conversation moves towards that the list is lacking.

Bevo the coach is not the problem and while Clarkson say's he's not tactically great Clarko did what he could to undermine the way we used the 3rd man up tactic early in Bevo's coaching career that caught many clubs by surprise.

We are under performing to the quality of our list and that is on the club not just Bevo to sort out what we need to do to right the ship.

[jeemak]

I'm not sure that we all agree though because typically during the trade period there is a strong push back when it's pointed out we should be linked to KPP or ruckman. Even suggesting we needed a short term replacement for the Bruce injury wasn't regarded as a priority.
Once the season starts and gaps in the depth of those key positions starts to appear the conversation moves towards that the list is lacking.

Bevo the coach is not the problem and while Clarkson say's he's not tactically great Clarko did what he could to undermine the way we used the 3rd man up tactic early in Bevo's coaching career that caught many clubs by surprise.

We are under performing to the quality of our list and that is on the club not just Bevo to sort out what we need to do to right the ship.

I don't think anyone would disagree that we lack a better key defender than Gardner, at least one quality mid-sized forward and a second ruck who Bevo would actually play. But I don't read as many posts as you do so maybe I'm off the mark.

Who said who isn't tactically great?

[jeemak]

What are our tactics?

+1, get it in, keep it in, turnover or kick point and get scored against.

I rate Bevo too but he needs some experienced outside voices.
In my job my work is constantly reviewed by peers and it makes me better. If I insulate I make the same mistakes over and over.
I'd love an experienced senior assistant to come in from another system. Boyd would be perfect.

We definitely need to bolster our assistant stocks.

[Grantysghost]

I'm not sure that we all agree though because typically during the trade period there is a strong push back when it's pointed out we should be linked to KPP or ruckman. Even suggesting we needed a short term replacement for the Bruce injury wasn't regarded as a priority.
Once the season starts and gaps in the depth of those key positions starts to appear the conversation moves towards that the list is lacking.

Bevo the coach is not the problem and while Clarkson say's he's not tactically great Clarko did what he could to undermine the way we used the 3rd man up tactic early in Bevo's coaching career that caught many clubs by surprise.

We are under performing to the quality of our list and that is on the club not just Bevo to sort out what we need to do to right the ship.

Damn you GVG - you've almost swayed me to Levi.

He would've been useful structurally last night.

[GVGjr]

I don't think anyone would disagree that we lack a better key defender than Gardner, at least one quality mid-sized forward and a second ruck who Bevo would actually play. But I don't read as many posts as you do so maybe I'm off the mark.

Who said who isn't tactically great?

Clarko doesn't believe Bevo is great tactically.

[jeemak]

Clarko doesn't believe Bevo is great tactically.

When did he say that? Odd that he would target him specifically to pull him back into the AFL.

[GVGjr]

When did he say that? Odd that he would target him specifically to pull him back into the AFL.

My mistake, I have misread something else. Please ignore.

[jeemak]

My mistake, I have misread something else. Please ignore.

Bloody hell. Get your act together. :cool:

Now I want to know what you misread!!!

[Bulldog4life]

Bit of a throw away line, but I'd love Clarkson.

I really don't rate Bevo tactically. Amazing motivator, poor tactically. The amount of times our supposed contending list gets outplayed / outcoached is ridiculous.

Clarko was on a million plus at the Hawks. Could we afford him in our soft cap?

[bornadog]

Clarko was on a million plus at the Hawks. Could we afford him in our soft cap?

From some insiders at Hawks, Clarko was dubbed as stubborn and would not change many things.

I think alot of his success was having guys like Bevo, Simpson, Fagan as assistants, having some great players in Buddy, Roughead, plus a top midfield with Lewis, Mitchell and many other great players like Hodge. He no doubt brought all these guys together through good management.

However, the idea of changing coach who has been so successful to date is just not on.

[jeemak]

Just for shits and giggles, I thought I'd post the Hawthorn 2014 premiership side to show what Clarko was working with vs. what we have been (2014 purely chosen on the back of it being the middle year of three premiership years):

B: 6 Josh Gibson 17 Brian Lake 14 Grant Birchall
HB: 27 Matthew Spangher 24 Ben Stratton 15 Luke Hodge (c)
C: 3 Jordan Lewis 5 Sam Mitchell 16 Isaac Smith
HF: 22 Luke Breust 19 Jack Gunston 33 Cyril Rioli
F: 7 Ben McEvoy 2 Jarryd Roughead 28 Paul Puopolo
Foll: 20 David Hale 26 Liam Shiels 9 Shaun Burgoyne
Int: 4 Matt Suckling 10 Bradley Hill 29 Will Langford
8 Taylor Duryea (sub)

The battlers in Lanford and Duryea were both ordinary at that stage of their careers, whilst the former didn't really do much. But just take a look at the quality across the ground and the balance across the ground.

Yes, it took winning a flag to make some of these players better than battler level, like Spangher but he was better then as depth than what we have right now.

Either way, it's chalk and cheese compared to what we took to the last game of the season in 2021, and the lack of respect Bevo gets is alarming in this context.

I mean, how's the back three? How's the forward six? If Bevo has too much say in who we put on the list and it's all his fault then absolutely, we need to do something about it. But for the cattle we had it was an extraordinary effort to get a game together that could compete:

B: 10 Easton Wood 42 Alex Keath 34 Bailey Williams
HB: 35 Caleb Daniel 12 Zaine Cordy 31 Bailey Dale
C: 6 Bailey Smith 21 Tom Liberatore 7 Lachie Hunter
HF: 19 Cody Weightman 33 Aaron Naughton 1 Adam Treloar
F: 13 Josh Schache 44 Tim English 29 Mitch Hannan
Foll: 8 Stefan Martin 11 Jack Macrae 4 Marcus Bontempelli
Int: 39 Jason Johannisen 5 Josh Dunkley 15 Taylor Duryea
37 Roarke Smith 23 Laitham Vandermeer (medi-sub)

True, you can only play against what's in front of you, but Jesus, the difference is stark. I'm not in the mood to post what we put on the park last night, given the improvements are really peripheral.

[jeemak]

And by posting that I'm not saying Clarko isn't a gun. Just showing the difference between a balanced side and what our side was/ is.

[G-Mo77]

Spangher, so close enough. Don't think he'd coached before? Was in an operations role at Collingwood.

Don't worry GG, I know exactly who our forward line coach is, I'd rather have the work experience kid to be honest.:D

No coaching experience at all and is one of our senior assistants? Good lord!!! It's no surprise that our forward half just has no direction.

[Hotdog60]

I wonder how Rocket would go as senior assistant. Bevo would be safe on the boundary and never go in the box.
In seriousness if Rocket was happy playing second fiddle and Bevo was coaching from the bench to keep the players on the ball I reckon it would be a good coaching combo.

[Grantysghost]

Don't worry GG, I know exactly who our forward line coach is, I'd rather have the work experience kid to be honest.:D

No coaching experience at all and is one of our senior assistants? Good lord!!! It's no surprise that our forward half just has no direction.

Ah I missed the sarcasm!

It does reek of jobs for the boys doesn't it. I guess people have to start somewhere but id hope he's at least got his accreditation.

Edit: Doesn't appear to have his levels, it's mainly business training and sports operations.

https://i.postimg.cc/P5NxTyvH/Screenshot-20220605-091735-Chrome.jpg (https://postimg.cc/HrDHtQtv)

[Grantysghost]

I wonder how Rocket would go as senior assistant. Bevo would be safe on the boundary and never go in the box.
In seriousness if Rocket was happy playing second fiddle and Bevo was coaching from the bench to keep the players on the ball I reckon it would be a good coaching combo.

You get the sense that unless Grant employs one it won't happen.

[G-Mo77]

Ah I missed the sarcasm!

It does reek of jobs for the boys doesn't it. I guess people have to start somewhere but id hope he's at least got his accreditation.

Edit: Doesn't appear to have his levels, it's mainly business training and sports operations.


Yeah, there is absolutely nothing in terms of coaching on his CV. He spent time at Collingwood but that was Engagement and Operations. Bevo complains about the soft cap and yeah, it's a fair argument, when this is our best choice that argument breaks down and you have to wonder; Could the money be spent on someone else? How much time did we use to vet the assistant applicants? Money would be tight but there would be loads of new coaches out there who have already spent time at lower levels with new, fresh ideas. People blame Bevo for choosing this guy, his mate, but who signed off on it? Grant? Bains? They should wear just as much blame. It's diabolical that Spangher was chosen for a senior assistants role at a club that just made the GF.

[Bulldog Joe]

I actually believe the problem is the game plan and that is down to Bevo.

Don't blame the forward coach when the game plan has everyone in the forward 50 so that we keep it there and don't score.

Don't blame the defensive coach when the eventual turnover slingshots it into an open opposition forward line, because all of our defenders had been pressing up to lock into the F50.

This game plan has had some success but it is so intensive and tiring. It requires Naughton to take pack marks because there is no space. It also prevents players who could perhaps perform with space (Josh Schache perhaps) from having any meaningful development.

It also affords space continually on turnover and results in our backline giving up more scores once the opposition get inside 50.

The list is good enough. The GAME PLAN is not.

[Danjul]

I actually believe the problem is the game plan and that is down to Bevo.

This game plan has had some success but it is so intensive and tiring. It requires Naughton to take pack marks because there is no space. It also prevents players who could perhaps perform with space (Josh Schache perhaps) from having any meaningful development.

It also affords space continually on turnover and results in our backline giving up more scores once the opposition get inside 50.

The list is good enough. The GAME PLAN is not.
This is a good observation and relevant to our riches to rags season.

Going into Friday’s game Cameron had taken 9 contested marks. For over 30 goals. We saw Geelong repeatedly kicking to his advantage and making him a match winner.

He doesn’t get bashed around by the opposition and his teammates. Doesn’t seem to have any ruck role.

Just calm business like common sense about how to win. Hawkins backing up with another couple, game over.

[Sedat]

I actually started to look ahead and was thinking, maybe? Last night kind of squashed that. I really can't see us getting enough W's from here on out to make the 8 and if we do manage to squeeze in I doubt we'll get through anyone in there.

We really need to review the coaching staff, match committee and any other game day tactician before 2023. Sitting on our hands is not an option IMO.

We need to review our midfield, too many of the same type. not enough grunt. Libba is our MVP in there, he was the reason the team started working their way back. His will and effort is elite, Macrae is a similar mold but outside of that when the chips are down the rest seem to be down and don't lift. I guess this comes under leadership as well?

Forward half is a debacle, selections can help here in some way but it's not going to stop having so many in the forward 50 and not getting a clear run at the ball. Our game plan is get it in there in anyway possible, keep it there and squeeze a goal out of it. How many times have we seen Naughton leading for the ball and someone gets in his way? Who ever is the coach of the forward half, I think it's the work experience kid, needs to be terminated at the end of this season.

We're still in this so we need to fight this out but at the same time we need to put some work into some younger players, Marra, Cleary, Sweet, Jones I'd really like to see play many times. I'd also like to give Shache a chance again and see if he's worth persisting with beyond 2022. It's not all doom and gloom but it's really hard not to be disappointed.
We need to hold Bevo's words and the club's expectations to account. After the EF loss in 2020 Bevo put it on record that the club was impatient with not contending and expected to be a contender for a sustained period of time to come. We fulfilled that end of the bargain last year - big tick. So really nothing less than a PF berth in 2022 is a failure based of the club's own expectations. It's that simple. Anything else is semantics and deeply misleading if we try to shift away from that narrative publicly.

Whatever the decisions around weekly selection, coaching, list management, recruiting and drafting since then, it is irrelevent. We need to be top 4 and likely in a GF in 2022 based on our own internal expectations. The club better get cracking this season.

[jeemak]

I'm not sure it'd end well telling a coach who has won a premiership, made another grand final, and three other finals series that he needs a senior mentor after seven seasons.

Pretty sure he'd tell the club to *!*!*!*! off and quit.

[bornadog]

You get the sense that unless Grant employs one it won't happen.

We had this same discussion in 2017 about guys like Hansen, King etc and they turned out to be pretty good.

[jeemak]

I did a comparison on coaching records to this point between Bevo and Clarkson (After a full seven seasons).

Average winning percentage - Bevo 56.77% to Clarkson 53.00%

Premierships - Bevo 1 to Clarkson 1

Finals series - Bevo 5 to Clarkson 4

Grand finals (lost) - Bevo 1 to Clarkson 0

Preliminary finals (lost) - Bevo 0 to Clarkson 1

Semi finals (lost) - Bevo 0 to Clarkson 1

Qualifying finals (lost) - Bevo 3 to Clarkson 0

Now it's this point in time where you have to say the recruiting at the Hawks was much better than what we have seen because they go on to put an amazingly strong 22-28 player contingent that was well structured and it took them to a Grand final, and then three flags in a row which is just amazing from that club.

I can't see us making a grand final this year, and I can't see us winning three flags in the coming three years unless we get some more talent in and balance out the side. Seriously though, we should be focusing on that and leave the coaching to Bevo with some more support from talented and credentialed assistants.

[Grantysghost]

I did a comparison on coaching records to this point between Bevo and Clarkson (After a full seven seasons).

Average winning percentage - Bevo 56.77% to Clarkson 53.00%

Premierships - Bevo 1 to Clarkson 1

Finals series - Bevo 5 to Clarkson 4

Grand finals - Bevo 2 to Clarkson 0

Preliminary finals - Bevo 0 to Clarkson 1

Semi finals - Bevo 0 to Clarkson 1

Qualifying finals - Bevo 3 to Clarkson 0

Now it's this point in time where you have to say the recruiting at the Hawks was much better than what we have seen because they go on to put an amazingly strong 22-28 player contingent that was well structured and it took them to a Grand final, and then three flags in a row which is just amazing from that club.

I can't see us making a grand final this year, and I can't see us winning three flags in the coming three years unless we get some more talent in and balance out the side. Seriously though, we should be focusing on that and leave the coaching to Bevo with some more support from talented and credentialed assistants.

But can Bevo win a flag from 0 Grand Finals that's some coaching ;)

[jeemak]

But can Bevo win a flag from 0 Grand Finals that's some coaching ;)

I've tried to make it a bit clearer!

[bornadog]

I did a comparison on coaching records to this point between Bevo and Clarkson (After a full seven seasons).

Average winning percentage - Bevo 56.77% to Clarkson 53.00%

Premierships - Bevo 1 to Clarkson 1

Finals series - Bevo 5 to Clarkson 4

Grand finals (lost) - Bevo 1 to Clarkson 0

Preliminary finals (lost) - Bevo 0 to Clarkson 1

Semi finals (lost) - Bevo 0 to Clarkson 1

Qualifying finals (lost) - Bevo 3 to Clarkson 0

Now it's this point in time where you have to say the recruiting at the Hawks was much better than what we have seen because they go on to put an amazingly strong 22-28 player contingent that was well structured and it took them to a Grand final, and then three flags in a row which is just amazing from that club.

I can't see us making a grand final this year, and I can't see us winning three flags in the coming three years unless we get some more talent in and balance out the side. Seriously though, we should be focusing on that and leave the coaching to Bevo with some more support from talented and credentialed assistants.

Great stuff Jee.

Hawks did get a lot of first rounders in those early years and were able to build a strong team, but brilliant comparison.

I really don't understand why supporters turn on the coach when we lose.

Like you have said in other posts, the players need to take some responsibility for their actions.

On top of that we lack a quality tall backman. I am a little disappointed in Keath, but I think his injuries are taking their toll. He is not moving like he use to. We also really miss Bruce to help Naughton, and it is a pity Schache hasn't worked out like we needed him to.

I am looking forward to seeing a few quality players back in the second half and they will make a big difference, ie Bruce, McLean, JJ and Hunter.

[Sedat]

I can't see us making a grand final this year, and I can't see us winning three flags in the coming three years unless we get some more talent in and balance out the side. Seriously though, we should be focusing on that and leave the coaching to Bevo with some more support from talented and credentialed assistants.
Bevo and the club could. They set the benchmark of long-term contending and they need to live their words and expectations. If we don't, we need a serious top-down examination of our entire operation.

It's all on Bevo, the match committee and the players. Time to get it done. No excuses whatsoever.

[Grantysghost]

Great stuff Jee.

Hawks did get a lot of first rounders in those early years and were able to build a strong team, but brilliant comparison.

I really don't understand why supporters turn on the coach when we lose.

Like you have said in other posts, the players need to take some responsibility for their actions.

On top of that we lack a quality tall backman. I am a little disappointed in Keath, but I think his injuries are taking their toll. He is not moving like he use to. We also really miss Bruce to help Naughton, and it is a pity Schache hasn't worked out like we needed him to.

I am looking forward to seeing a few quality players back in the second half and they will make a big difference, ie Bruce, McLean, JJ and Hunter.

Wait, you love all the players xD

Can't be their fault.

[jeemak]

Bevo and the club could. They set the benchmark of long-term contending and they need to live their words and expectations. If we don't, we need a serious top-down examination of our entire operation.

It's all on Bevo, the match committee and the players. Time to get it done. No excuses whatsoever.

I could at the start of the year, but at six and six I can't. Happy to be surprised, but can't see it happening.

Should we not then I don't want any arm flapping, histrionics, or carry on. Rather, a sober assessment of the reasons why we didn't achieve what we aimed to and some steps to rectify any issues identified.

[bornadog]

Wait, you love all the players xD

Can't be their fault.

What are you talking about?

[Grantysghost]

What are you talking about?

If you find out let me know.

[bornadog]

If you find out let me know.

Very funny :D:D

[Sedat]

I could at the start of the year, but at six and six I can't. Happy to be surprised, but can't see it happening.

Should we not then I don't want any arm flapping, histrionics, or carry on. Rather, a sober assessment of the reasons why we didn't achieve what we aimed to and some steps to rectify any issues identified.
Nobody is asking for arm waving, histrionics or carry on. However, there must be an assessment of the entire operation from top to bottom - when onfield performance is so inferior to internal expectations, there is no choice but to review everything forensically.

I'm still of the view we can rally for the remainder of the season, make finals and have a meaningful impact in September. Having a difficult draw will help us, it will sharpen our focus. If we don't, we have to look at everything at the end of the season. It was good enough for Geelong in 2006 and Richmond in 2016 to have this laser focus post-season, and it is frankly the bare minimum we should be doing if we flame out this season.

[azabob]

Nobody is asking for arm waving, histrionics or carry on. However, there must be an assessment of the entire operation from top to bottom - when onfield performance is so inferior to internal expectations, there is no choice but to review everything forensically.

I'm still of the view we can rally for the remainder of the season, make finals and have a meaningful impact in September. Having a difficult draw will help us, it will sharpen our focus. If we don't, we have to look at everything at the end of the season. It was good enough for Geelong in 2006 and Richmond in 2016 to have this laser focus post-season, and It is frankly the bare minimum we should be doing if we flame out this season.

I thought the same thing pre-Friday night. Beveridge had the team primed for a win to take us into the bye.

When it mattered we couldn't deliver.

From here our season will peter out and we will end up with 11-12 wins and finish 10th or 11th.

[jeemak]

Nobody is asking for arm waving, histrionics or carry on. However, there must be an assessment of the entire operation from top to bottom - when onfield performance is so inferior to internal expectations, there is no choice but to review everything forensically.

I'm still of the view we can rally for the remainder of the season, make finals and have a meaningful impact in September. Having a difficult draw will help us, it will sharpen our focus. If we don't, we have to look at everything at the end of the season. It was good enough for Geelong in 2006 and Richmond in 2016 to have this laser focus post-season, and it is frankly the bare minimum we should be doing if we flame out this season.

I'm pretty sure you want a flutter, you know, at least a bit of one. Something like the chicken dance but more serious.

Actually, I agree with what you're saying and I think irrespective the year's on-field outcome there needs to be a review of what resulted in us being in this situation in the first place.

If you were a bank robber and you had to rely on the final high stakes car chase to get away because elements of the job went wrong and led you to that position, you'd be making sure you didn't make those same mistakes again next time you lined yourself up for a job (unless you were a bank robber because they mainly get caught - but you get my drift).

[azabob]

If you were a bank robber and you had to rely on the final high stakes car chase to get away because elements of the job went wrong and led you to that position, you'd be making sure you didn't make those same mistakes again next time you lined yourself up for a job (unless you were a bank robber because they mainly get caught - but you get my drift).

Speaking of bank robbers have you seen the modern day masterpiece Hell or High Water?

[Bullies]

I thought the same thing pre-Friday night. Beveridge had the team primed for a win to take us into the bye.

When it mattered we couldn't deliver.

From here our season will peter out and we will end up with 11-12 wins and finish 10th or 11th. Agreed can't see us making finals. We will give a few false hopes like beating Melbourne at Marvel but when the whips are cracking we just go missing.

Our game plan is ordinary and there is something not right within. They don't play and support as a unit. There is little leadership. Still not sure on the decision to give Macrae the VC. Does he need it or was it to get his signature. The one who has the most Leadership attributes is Dunkley but he probably wont be there next year. Libber appears to be the one who inspires and leads.

Selection is hit and miss. When Sweet plays we get clear centre clearances when he doesn't we may still win clearences but it is under pressure and we will often give it back to the opposition but still get a clearance stat. We must play x2 ruckman.

[EasternWest]

Nobody is asking for arm waving, histrionics or carry on. However, there must be an assessment of the entire operation from top to bottom - when onfield performance is so inferior to internal expectations, there is no choice but to review everything forensically.

I'm still of the view we can rally for the remainder of the season, make finals and have a meaningful impact in September. Having a difficult draw will help us, it will sharpen our focus. If we don't, we have to look at everything at the end of the season. It was good enough for Geelong in 2006 and Richmond in 2016 to have this laser focus post-season, and it is frankly the bare minimum we should be doing if we flame out this season.

I agree with this. Weirdly enough. If we go on a hot run, we'll be hard to beat.

The question is can we get on a hot run?

[Mantis]

I agree with this. Weirdly enough. If we go on a hot run, we'll be hard to beat.

The question is can we get on a hot run?

There is nothing to suggest we can given the inconsistent performances we've put forward thus far. We're yet to show we can put in a consistent 3-4 qtr performance against a top 8 side, bar probably the Sydney game when our poor goal kicking stopped us from having a comfortable win and given our tough run in it's hard to make a case for us.

[Grantysghost]

There is nothing to suggest we can given the inconsistent performances we've put forward thus far. We're yet to show we can put in a consistent 3-4 qtr performance against a top 8 side, bar probably the Sydney game when our poor goal kicking stopped us from having a comfortable win and given our tough run in it's hard to make a case for us.

I've turned my attention to the draft.

Another top 10 pick coming.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/33845060/afl-draft-2022-phantom-draft-power-rankings-tom-scully-joins-ashcroft-pick-1-contender

Two WA kids Broadbent (ruck) and Busslinger (defender) be nice. I won't go down the rabbit hole here and now but I enjoy this part of list management.

[Grantysghost]

I agree with this. Weirdly enough. If we go on a hot run, we'll be hard to beat.

The question is can we get on a hot run?

I doubt it the draw is very difficult, we might snare one or two against the odds but getting a run on will be tough.

My predictions :

GWS (A) : W
HAW (H) : W
BRI (A) : L
SYD (A) : L
STK (H) :? Prob loss but 50/50 on this
MEL (H) : L
GEE (A) : L
FRE (H) :? Same as saints
GWS (H) : W
HAW (Tas) : W

So maybe 4 more wins by my guess which gets us 10 and on last seasons ladder 9/10/11 depending on percentage.

[Mantis]

I've turned my attention to the draft.

Another top 10 pick coming.

https://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/33845060/afl-draft-2022-phantom-draft-power-rankings-tom-scully-joins-ashcroft-pick-1-contender

Two WA kids Broadbent (ruck) and Busslinger (defender) be nice. I won't go down the rabbit hole here and now but I enjoy this part of list management.

We need a ready made ruck/forward & defender... by the time these guys (new draftee's) are ready to perform at a high level Bont, Treloar, Macrae & Libba won't be as effective as they are now so we need to make the most of their careers and go ''chips in''.

[Bullies]

I doubt it the draw is very difficult, we might snare one or two against the odds but getting a run on will be tough.

My predictions :

GWS (A) : W
HAW (H) : W
BRI (A) : L
SYD (A) : L
STK (H) :? Prob loss but 50/50 on this
MEL (H) : L
GEE (A) : L
FRE (H) :? Same as saints
GWS (H) : W
HAW (Tas) : W

So maybe 4 more wins by my guess which gets us 10 and on last seasons ladder 9/10/11 depending on percentage. You will need a minimum 12 wins to make the 8. Possibly 13 with the amount of traffic.

[Grantysghost]

You will need a minimum 12 wins to make the 8. Possibly 13 with the amount of traffic.

Yes and those GWS and Hawthorn (4) games are no gimmies.

[1eyedog]

We've done it again FFS play in a GF and then miss the 8 the year after.

[GVGjr]

We've done it again FFS play in a GF and then miss the 8 the year after.

I still think we are a chance to make the 8 but is it a level of complacency that embraces our club? Our recruiting in the off season would indicate we felt that we didn't need to cover Bruce or really strengthen in an area so I wonder what exactly drives these types of slumps?

[Grantysghost]

I still think we are a chance to make the 8 but is it a level of complacency that embraces our club? Our recruiting in the off season would indicate we felt that we didn't need to cover Bruce or really strengthen in an area so I wonder what exactly drives these types of slumps?

Especially considering the message in the off season was sustained success anything outside of finals is a massive failure.

[bornadog]

According to MJP, re our list.


I mostly agree with you but I don't think it is out of balance.

Key Forwards:
Ready: Bruce, Naughton, Schache
Developing: Jamarra, Darcy

Key Backs:
Ready: Keath, Gardner, Cordy, O'Brien
Developing: -

Rucks:
Ready: Martin, English
Developing: Sweet

We actually have enough players. The problem is we don't necessarily pick them.

I get the MC concern with playing Sweet and English (or Martin and English) together because it costs us a rotation and with our zoning defense, the players are expected/needed to run (an awful lot). But at some point they just need to bit the bullet and select:

2x Key forwards
2x Key Defenders
2x Rucks
1x Utility Tall who can help wherever is needed.

eg.
Forwards: Naughton AND Schache
Backs: Gardner AND Keath
Rucks: English AND Sweet
Utility: O'Brien

I don't think it is that hard.

Whether we have the right players is another matter

[GVGjr]

Especially considering the message in the off season was sustained success anything outside of finals is a massive failure.

Did we judge the list incorrectly or fly a false message to meet our ambitions of a 50K membership base?
At the end of the last season I was confident we had a top 4 list. At the end of the trade period I wasn't quite as confident as we didn't address our needs and the old adage of you are standing still in the AFL you're actually going backwards seems to have happened to us.

I suspect the next 3 weeks after the bye will tell the story.

[Bulldog Joe]

I believe the issue is not in the list but in the coaching.

Geelong were clearly better planned to counter our strength and our game plan just doesn't enhance our strength.

The insistence on playing a swarming press that leaves no space for forwards is just not getting it done.

Beveridge needs to adapt to make use of the talent of the list. He is outcoached way to often and Chris Scott does it every single time.

[Grantysghost]

Did we judge the list incorrectly or fly a false message to meet our ambitions of a 50K membership base?
At the end of the last season I was confident we had a top 4 list. At the end of the trade period I wasn't quite as confident as we didn't address our needs and the old adage of you are standing still in the AFL you're actually going backwards seems to have happened to us.

I suspect the next 3 weeks after the bye will tell the story.

I thought we had a top 4 list to be honest. Why we can't sustain top 4 form is my question. Our best is undoubtedly in the best handful.
I think the list holes are a big factor as you have alluded to.
The game plan is also high risk high reward so throw in some inconsistent player efforts and injuries and it gets you behind where you should be.

It's hard to comment on bringing players in to address need because I don't know what we tried to do. But as you've said someone like a Casboult or a Chol would've made sense.

Even a guy like Callum Sinclair. No star and ageing but would've been useful for a year or two.

[bornadog]

I believe the issue is not in the list but in the coaching.

Geelong were clearly better planned to counter our strength and our game plan just doesn't enhance our strength.

The insistence on playing a swarming press that leaves no space for forwards is just not getting it done.

Beveridge needs to adapt to make use of the talent of the list. He is outcoached way to often and Chris Scott does it every single time.

You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny

[Mantis]

You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny

And how is that game plan going now?

The game continues to evolve... have we evolved with it?

[GVGjr]

I thought we had a top 4 list to be honest. Why we can't sustain top 4 form is my question. Our best is undoubtedly in the best handful.
I think the list holes are a big factor as you have alluded to.
The game plan is also high risk high reward so throw in some inconsistent player efforts and injuries and it gets you behind where you should be.

It's hard to comment on bringing players in to address need because I don't know what we tried to do. But as you've said someone like a Casboult or a Chol would've made sense.

Even a guy like Callum Sinclair. No star and ageing but would've been useful for a year or two.

Depth and structure are critical, if we have learned anything is that you can address midfield and smaller forward depth with some experienced state league types (Hayes, Cav, Scott and McNeil etc) but for some reason we choose not to with our taller players.
Casboult or Sinclair could been used as experienced stop gap replacements. Chol would have passed all of BAD's WAH filters and can play a few positions.
Our position was to accept that Bruce wouldn't be playing a sizeable part of the season, Easton Wood being replace by TOB and allowing for Young to move to Carlton.
Perhaps we thought Marra was a 20 game player for us in 2022 but if so that was a risky assessment.

[GVGjr]

You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny

Perhaps we have played that card and haven't evolved it. Our performances would indicate that maybe a few clubs have been able to expose some of our gaps in the game plan.

[Bulldog Joe]

You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny

Yes
I do mean the game plan that got us into the Granny, but also lead to a complete capitulation.

We needed to improve and not fall back into situations that had us lose the last 3 roster games to inferior opponents forfeiting a top 2 finish.

The coach obviously believes he knows best, but when you are replacing Will Hayes with Robbie McComb on your list, it is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

We needed to find better navigation to avoid the Iceberg that was Melbourne, but we keep doing the same stuff and allow Iceberg Geelong to again dominate us when it matters.

Better preparation with options when things don't go your way are the responsibilty of the coach.

He may have won a flag, but he has now wasted 6 years of talent with his approach.
When is he to be held accountable.

[Grantysghost]

Yes
I do mean the game plan that got us into the Granny, but also lead to a complete capitulation.

We needed to improve and not fall back into situations that had us lose the last 3 roster games to inferior opponents forfeiting a top 2 finish.

The coach obviously believes he knows best, but when you are replacing Will Hayes with Robbie McComb on your list, it is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

We needed to find better navigation to avoid the Iceberg that was Melbourne, but we keep doing the same stuff and allow Iceberg Geelong to again dominate us when it matters.

Better preparation with options when things don't go your way are the responsibilty of the coach.

He may have won a flag, but he has now wasted 6 years of talent with his approach.
When is he to be held accountable.

He just made a GF so I guess that's a fair performance indicator if you are judging his results? I know what you mean though and I'm as frustrated as you atm we should be making the top 4.

I find it amazing he can basically decide not to perform some media tasks and his managers let him get away with it. If it's part of the job then he should be doing it and I'd hope Grant and Bains are not kowtowing to him in this regard. Be nice to have a job where you can say : "nah i don't like that part of it I wont do it" .....eg appearing on anything FOX.

I'm a big Bevo fan as I've said, but we can't have results like the first half of this season.

[Danjul]

Depth and structure are critical, if we have learned anything is that you can address midfield and smaller forward depth with some experienced state league types (Hayes, Cav, Scott and McNeil etc) but for some reason we choose not to with our taller players.
Casboult or Sinclair could been used as experienced stop gap replacements. Chol would have passed all of BAD's WAH filters and can play a few positions.
Our position was to accept that Bruce wouldn't be playing a sizeable part of the season, Easton Wood being replace by TOB and allowing for Young to move to Carlton.
Perhaps we thought Marra was a 20 game player for us in 2022 but if so that was a risky assessment.
The problem is not who we haven’t got but rather what we are doing with what we have.

The 5 year post premiership experiment led to the conclusion we are unbeatable when we have 3 tall forwards/ 2rucks .

So we refuse to do it. (Except by accident). The closer we get to that structure the better we look.

The selection team refuses to acknowledge reality.

For example, look at the Adelaide game. Bont, Macrae and Treloar had season lowest number of kicks. Maybe the fact that Naughton also had season 2nd lowest number of kicks and Weightman was goalless was related. Midfielders jammed up trying to handball out of trouble, team in trouble, season at risk.

Now look at the Collingwood game.

Bont, Treloar, West, Naughton all had season best number of kicks. Libba and Smith had 2nd highest. Macrae and Dunkley had 3rd highest out of the first 11 games. (When I looked at the data)

Naughton also had his highest number of marks (kicking 3:2), Bont had his 2nd highest number of marks and the team had the highest number of inside 50s.

The Bulldogs genuinely looked like a top four proposition. And we had some significant players out.

Same players, different results. Interesting.

Anything to learn from all this? Something that might save our season from Port and Geelong?

Nope, just sit back and watch a replay of 2017-2018 play out.

[Bulldog Joe]

He just made a GF so I guess that's a fair performance indicator if you are judging his results? I know what you mean though and I'm as frustrated as you atm we should be making the top 4.

I find it amazing he can basically decide not to perform some media tasks and his managers let him get away with it. If it's part of the job then he should be doing it and I'd hope Grant and Bains are not kowtowing to him in this regard. Be nice to have a job where you can say : "nah i don't like that part of it I wont do it" .....eg appearing on anything FOX.

I'm a big Bevo fan as I've said, but we can't have results like the first half of this season.

I have struggled with being a Bevo fan and have considered he should be out the door several times in the past 5 years.

He continues to experiment with things and in 2019 and 2020 he basically gave up and reverted to a more normal position in the latter part of the year allowing us to finish strongly for elimination final losses.

The list at his disposal should be sitting comfortably in finals contention, but poor losses to Carlton, Richmond and Adelaide as well as Port Adelaide have us likely to miss finals.

I know it is possible for us to win the next 13 and be premiers, but not without a big improvement and it starts with the coach.

[whythelongface]

Yes
I do mean the game plan that got us into the Granny, but also lead to a complete capitulation.

We needed to improve and not fall back into situations that had us lose the last 3 roster games to inferior opponents forfeiting a top 2 finish.

The coach obviously believes he knows best, but when you are replacing Will Hayes with Robbie McComb on your list, it is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

We needed to find better navigation to avoid the Iceberg that was Melbourne, but we keep doing the same stuff and allow Iceberg Geelong to again dominate us when it matters.

Better preparation with options when things don't go your way are the responsibilty of the coach.

He may have won a flag, but he has now wasted 6 years of talent with his approach.
When is he to be held accountable.

I am not sure of the wasting of talent. I never get that argument. Do we over rate our list? Yes we have a sprinkling of elite players but so do other teams. It is extremely difficult to win a premiership, thus winning one is a bloody good achievement. Since our premiership only 3 teams have won the flag - thus 15 haven’t. Some of those teams have bloody talented lists but like us also have weaknesses. Look at Geelong - haven’t won a flag since 2011 yet have Danger, Tomahawk, Stewart, Cameron on their list. Port Adelaide with Gray, Boak, Jonas, Vines have zilch. West Coast with JK, Gaff, Sheed, Shuey also the one. Like these teams we have out and out stars but to win a flag you need a squad of 26 to 30 players performing well over a period of time without injuries. What I am trying to say here is that it is not necessarily a waste of talent because we haven’t won more flags. Sure we all want more, but to have won a flag is an awesome achievement. I get what you are saying and it shows that we are hungry for more success. Maybe the fact that we have never had such talented players at our disposal makes it harder to cop.

To be frank we have had a poor run with injuries over the last 12 months. This has clearly impacted our performance as well as some psychological scars and maybe some poor selections (both trade and game day) have contributed to our lack of success. In saying that I feel confident about the future, post 2022. We have some talent coming through we just need to make sure we draft for our needs. Still think we can snag a flag or two in Bonts window of opportunity.

[bornadog]

I am not sure of the wasting of talent. I never get that argument. Do we over rate our list? Yes we have a sprinkling of elite players but so do other teams. It is extremely difficult to win a premiership, thus winning one is a bloody good achievement. Since our premiership only 3 teams have won the flag - thus 15 haven’t. Some of those teams have bloody talented lists but like us also have weaknesses. Look at Geelong - haven’t won a flag since 2011 yet have Danger, Tomahawk, Stewart, Cameron on their list. Port Adelaide with Gray, Boak, Jonas, Vines have zilch. West Coast with JK, Gaff, Sheed, Shuey also the one. Like these teams we have out and out stars but to win a flag you need a squad of 26 to 30 players performing well over a period of time without injuries. What I am trying to say here is that it is not necessarily a waste of talent because we haven’t won more flags. Sure we all want more, but to have won a flag is an awesome achievement. I get what you are saying and it shows that we are hungry for more success. Maybe the fact that we have never had such talented players at our disposal makes it harder to cop.

To be frank we have had a poor run with injuries over the last 12 months. This has clearly impacted our performance as well as some psychological scars and maybe some poor selections (both trade and game day) have contributed to our lack of success. In saying that I feel confident about the future, post 2022. We have some talent coming through we just need to make sure we draft for our needs. Still think we can snag a flag or two in Bonts window of opportunity.

Good post, you have expressed the same as my thoughts.

[1eyedog]

I don't trust this team because frankly I don't trust Bevo. Not saying he needs to go but for a senior AFL coach his best and worst are miles apart.

[Bulldog Joe]

I don't trust this team because frankly I don't trust Bevo. Not saying he needs to go but for a senior AFL coach his best and worst are miles apart.

Complete agreement on Bevo.

I want a consistent winning culture that performs at least 90 per cent of the time.

[1eyedog]

Complete agreement on Bevo.

I want a consistent winning culture that performs at least 90 per cent of the time.

There are just too many windows where the opposition can score easily and quickly and this has been happening since 2017.

Not sure Schache or Sweet will fix that.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't trust this team because frankly I don't trust Bevo. Not saying he needs to go but for a senior AFL coach his best and worst are miles apart.

It's funny - Bevo is still an icon in my mind, but I'm ready for the 'next' coach/stage as I really don't rate him tactically.

[Bulldog Joe]

There are just too many windows where the opposition can score easily and quickly and this has been happening since 2017.

Not sure Schache or Sweet will fix that.

I don't believe it is personnel based. The problem is the game plan, which is why it keeps happening EVERY YEAR.

[mjp]

I think Bevo is great in ALL areas except one.

Team selection is basically 'BINGO' with us and I still remember when he was first in charge (2015) and every week I would shake my head in wonder at the selections - yet 99% of those selections showed he had pulled the 'right' rein and everything was fine.

I have continued to shake my head in wonder at the selections but so many of them seem to end up being ineffective. I felt like I was one of few who was behind the Gardner selections in 2019/2020 because I thought (as per my post earlier that BAD re-posted in this thread) that we needed 2x key defenders, 2x key forwards, 2x rucks + a utility...but at the same time I understood the frustration with that selection due to the inexperience/nervousness of his play.

Whilst I DO understand the MC's reluctance to play Sweet or Martin alongside English due to their inability to play anywhere but RUCK (it seriously kills rotations) but do agree with the posters on here who think it is just 'time' to give such a structure an extended look...I mean, at this point, what have we actually got to lose??

[MrMahatma]

I'm genuinely shocked that people think Bevo should go, (or even it should be considered...) half a season after making a GF, and we're still in the mix for finals this year - and we've had a horrible injury list so far this season. Like it or not, that injury toll hurts our performance.

I get annoyed with some selections and dead set reckon there are a few players on our list who really shouldn't be... but, in reality, I'm just a fan (I mean...I'm really, REALLY, smart and probably better looking than Bevo...can't grow a tash that well though...) but he does know much, much more about footy and coaching and being the head of a club than any of us.

I'm still not sure why Sam Power doesn't cop any heat on this forum. So much frustration but Bevo can only pick from the players we have on the list. Who's the list manager? (And, I actually think Power does a decent enough job as we've kept the stars on our list... and as I've said on other threads, I reckon our hands have been somewhat tied the past couple of years as we've brought in elite youth).

It's like Bevo gets few credits for taking us to a GF last year (something he did) and gets all the heat for the balance of our list (which he doesn't 100% control... I'm sure he influences it).

"In Bevo we trust"... right?!

[bornadog]

I'm genuinely shocked that people think Bevo should go, (or even it should be considered...) half a season after making a GF, and we're still in the mix for finals this year - and we've had a horrible injury list so far this season. Like it or not, that injury toll hurts our performance.

I get annoyed with some selections and dead set reckon there are a few players on our list who really shouldn't be... but, in reality, I'm just a fan (I mean...I'm really, REALLY, smart and probably better looking than Bevo...can't grow a tash that well though...) but he does know much, much more about footy and coaching and being the head of a club than any of us.

I'm still not sure why Sam Power doesn't cop any heat on this forum. So much frustration but Bevo can only pick from the players we have on the list. Who's the list manager? (And, I actually think Power does a decent enough job as we've kept the stars on our list... and as I've said on other threads, I reckon our hands have been somewhat tied the past couple of years as we've brought in elite youth).

It's like Bevo gets few credits for taking us to a GF last year (something he did) and gets all the heat for the balance of our list (which he doesn't 100% control... I'm sure he influences it).

"In Bevo we trust"... right?!


I don't understand it either when you look at Bevo's record at 56.5% win ratio

2015 - Elimination final lost by 5 points
2016 -Premiership
2017 - 11 wins 11 losses missed finals by a game after devasted by injuries and forced to play the youngest team in AFL in the second half of the year.
2018 - Mini Rebuild, and played as the youngest team all year
2019 - Elimination final, beaten by eventual grand finalist
2020 - Elimination final , lost by 3 points
2021 - Grand Final
2022 - to be decided.

Queue all the posters - can't blame injury, can't blame young inexperienced players. Well facts are facts, you need your best team on the park eg Melbourne last year only one injury - Tomlinson

Every team has a list problem of some sort and we are no different.

"In Bevo we trust"... right?! Bloody oath right

[GVGjr]

I'm genuinely shocked that people think Bevo should go, (or even it should be considered...) half a season after making a GF, and we're still in the mix for finals this year - and we've had a horrible injury list so far this season. Like it or not, that injury toll hurts our performance.

I get annoyed with some selections and dead set reckon there are a few players on our list who really shouldn't be... but, in reality, I'm just a fan (I mean...I'm really, REALLY, smart and probably better looking than Bevo...can't grow a tash that well though...) but he does know much, much more about footy and coaching and being the head of a club than any of us.

I'm still not sure why Sam Power doesn't cop any heat on this forum. So much frustration but Bevo can only pick from the players we have on the list. Who's the list manager? (And, I actually think Power does a decent enough job as we've kept the stars on our list... and as I've said on other threads, I reckon our hands have been somewhat tied the past couple of years as we've brought in elite youth).

It's like Bevo gets few credits for taking us to a GF last year (something he did) and gets all the heat for the balance of our list (which he doesn't 100% control... I'm sure he influences it).

"In Bevo we trust"... right?!

I'm definitely not calling for Bevo to be moved on but I guess the roller coaster of form is the catalyst for the discussion.
I think the way Bevo has handled the media is in a way also opening the door for some additional scrutiny.
The list management strategy question you ask is an interesting one. How much say does Bevo have in it might help determine things.

Has the investment in Marra and Darcy over the last 2 years gummed up the works for the list managers might be worth considering.

It's still early days and if we win 3 or 4 in a row, we will start looking ahead more than in the rear view mirror.

[Bullies]

It's funny - Bevo is still an icon in my mind, but I'm ready for the 'next' coach/stage as I really don't rate him tactically. If Bevo bit the bullet and got an asst coach in who was very good tactically you would find a lot of our problems would be solved. Ideally we need someone who doesn't make him feel insecure and has no intention of coaching the team. Judging by our game plan none of the current coaches are game day tacticians either or if they are they are just not listened to. Webb is supposed to be good with the players with his teachings(McCartney type), Sphanger has had no experience so hard to make a call.

[mjp]

2017 - 11 wins 11 losses missed finals by a game after devasted by injuries and forced to play the youngest team in AFL in the second half of the year.
2018 - Mini Rebuild, and played as the youngest team all year
2019 - Elimination final, beaten by eventual grand finalist
2020 - Elimination final , lost by 3 points
2021 - Grand Final
2022 - to be decided.

...

"In Bevo we trust"... right?! Bloody oath right

BAD, you KNOW I love Bevo and I ride with the "In BEVO WE TRUST" line, but let's go easy on the "FORCED TO PLAY THE YOUNGEST LIST" stuff...we made decisions - they were 100% decisions - to leave out experienced players and put younger players IN during 2017 and 2018. And if you are trying to tell me the 2019 and 2020 elimination final losses were anything other than abject disappointments then I'm going to argue - GWS smashed us/bashed us which was 100% predictable to the point posters on here were saying they would do it (and we were not prepared) and in 2019 we simply were not ready to play vs the Saints, got jumped, there were a heap of acts that were 'not team' and yep, we lost by 3-points but PER-LEASE!

Bevo has been 100% amazing but it doesn't mean supporters - and there are a heap of people commenting who throw their hard earned at the club and for not much in return in recent times - can't offer a counter opinion from time to time. What else in life are we able to be this passionate about?

[jeemak]

I am not sure of the wasting of talent. I never get that argument. Do we over rate our list? Yes we have a sprinkling of elite players but so do other teams. It is extremely difficult to win a premiership, thus winning one is a bloody good achievement. Since our premiership only 3 teams have won the flag - thus 15 haven’t. Some of those teams have bloody talented lists but like us also have weaknesses. Look at Geelong - haven’t won a flag since 2011 yet have Danger, Tomahawk, Stewart, Cameron on their list. Port Adelaide with Gray, Boak, Jonas, Vines have zilch. West Coast with JK, Gaff, Sheed, Shuey also the one. Like these teams we have out and out stars but to win a flag you need a squad of 26 to 30 players performing well over a period of time without injuries. What I am trying to say here is that it is not necessarily a waste of talent because we haven’t won more flags. Sure we all want more, but to have won a flag is an awesome achievement. I get what you are saying and it shows that we are hungry for more success. Maybe the fact that we have never had such talented players at our disposal makes it harder to cop.

To be frank we have had a poor run with injuries over the last 12 months. This has clearly impacted our performance as well as some psychological scars and maybe some poor selections (both trade and game day) have contributed to our lack of success. In saying that I feel confident about the future, post 2022. We have some talent coming through we just need to make sure we draft for our needs. Still think we can snag a flag or two in Bonts window of opportunity.

Great post.

[bornadog]

BAD, you KNOW I love Bevo and I ride with the "In BEVO WE TRUST" line, but let's go easy on the "FORCED TO PLAY THE YOUNGEST LIST" stuff...we made decisions - they were 100% decisions - to leave out experienced players and put younger players IN during 2017 and 2018.

How we forget

Injuries and why we played young players

From May 2017



Player

Injury

Estimated Return



Travis Cloke
Broken ribs
1-2 weeks


Josh Dunkley
Shoulder
12-14 weeks


Patrick Lipinski
Collarbone
3-4 weeks


Brad Lynch
Hamstring
2-3 weeks


Dale Morris
Leg
1-2 weeks


Jordan Roughead
Hamstring
Test


Roarke Smith
Knee
Season


Jake Stringer
Knee
2-3 weeks




June 2017



Player
Injury
Estimated Return


Marcus Adams
Foot
10-11 weeks


Tom Boyd
Calf
Test


Travis Cloke
Mental health
Indefinite


Stewart Crameri
Hip
Season


Josh Dunkley
Shoulder
6-7 weeks


Fergus Greene
Wrist
5-6 weeks


Lin Jong
Knee
Season


Tom Liberatore
Cork
1 week


Robert Murphy
Hamstring
Test


Liam Picken
Knee
Test


Roarke Smith
Knee
Season


Updated: Thursday, June 29



By 2018 we had either traded, delisted or retired 10 Grand final players and could only play young players


And if you are trying to tell me the 2019 and 2020 elimination final losses were anything other than abject disappointments !

Not at all. I am saying we made finals, that is all. Bevo got us in the finals in those years.


Bevo has been 100% amazing but it doesn't mean supporters - and there are a heap of people commenting who throw their hard earned at the club and for not much in return in recent times - can't offer a counter opinion from time to time. What else in life are we able to be this passionate about?

I haven't bagged anyone that has an opinion on the coach. I am merely giving you an alternative view.

Always easy to bag the coach, but I think players must take responsibility for the losses this year. The players we have had available are not all in best 22 and we have to make do.

[mjp]

Trading players out so you can ‘only’ play young players is 100% a choice.

Why did Roughead have to go? Dahlhaus? Adams was injury related I guess (wanted greener pastures) but we delisted Roberts and traded Hamling...we CHOSE to do those things. Trengove in the 2’s, the list goes on. Boyd was also retired too soon after his final season was wrecked by concussion...from All Australian half back to discarded in basically 6 weeks.

We CHOSE to be young. Maybe it was the rebuild we had to have etc (and no doubt Boyd shocked US) but...

[bornadog]

Trading players out so you can ‘only’ play young players is 100% a choice.

Why did Roughead have to go? Dahlhaus? Adams was injury related I guess (wanted greener pastures) but we delisted Roberts and traded Hamling...we CHOSE to do those things. Trengove in the 2’s, the list goes on. Boyd was also retired too soon after his final season was wrecked by concussion...from All Australian half back to discarded in basically 6 weeks.

We CHOSE to be young. Maybe it was the rebuild we had to have etc (and no doubt Boyd shocked US) but...

ok I get your point but we still ended up with a very young team. We know that teams that inexperienced don’t win games ant that is why we missed finals. I agree withJeemak, it was a mini rebuild for the future

[1eyedog]

Bruce, Hunter and JJ back make us a far better team because our bottom 6 all of a sudden look much stronger. Can't play all your depth i.e Scott, McNeil, Khamis, McComb and West and expect to match it with a top 4 team.

[WBFC4FFC]

If Bevo bit the bullet and got an asst coach in who was very good tactically you would find a lot of our problems would be solved. Ideally we need someone who doesn't make him feel insecure and has no intention of coaching the team. Judging by our game plan none of the current coaches are game day tacticians either or if they are they are just not listened to. Webb is supposed to be good with the players with his teachings(McCartney type), Sphanger has had no experience so hard to make a call.

Lost too many Senior Assistants last year. Coupled with a restricted Football Dept Salary Cap (Caroline Wilson wrote about this in The Saturday Age) its harder to attract the right people for the roles. Remember how long it took to settle on Webb, in-terms of finding someone with experience?

As for a solution for an Assistant, should the Foot Dept be expanded for next season: Leon Cameron?!?!

Bevo needs to be challenged in the inner sanctum. (All coaches have to). Can Chris Grant organise this?

[FrediKanoute]

Bruce, Hunter and JJ back make us a far better team because our bottom 6 all of a sudden look much stronger. Can't play all your depth i.e Scott, McNeil, Khamis, McComb and West and expect to match it with a top 4 team.

Which Bruce? The 2020 unfit slow as a snail Bruce or the 2021 Bruce who had a mega pre-season?

Bruce is not a panacea to our ills and its negligent by the recruiting staff to rely on an ACL recovery player to underpin a forward structure

[1eyedog]

Which Bruce? The 2020 unfit slow as a snail Bruce or the 2021 Bruce who had a mega pre-season?

Bruce is not a panacea to our ills and its negligent by the recruiting staff to rely on an ACL recovery player to underpin a forward structure

Why would it be negligent of the recruiting staff do you mean the MC or do you mean we should have drafted a ready made AFL key forward to take his spot for season 2022?

Bruce will take time to integrate back into the group and may take longer to find touch but he has a solid backload of 150 games and 230 goals to his name. He makes us better. I'm not advocating for him to underpin anything he'll take time but his presence will help Naughton I think. It's been proven they work really well together. Bruce knows what he's doing and will be a far superior asset than Khamis. When fit he commands the best key defender because he's disciplined, has well-versed leading patterns and is a big body with genuine forward craft. He can also kick straight.

As for which Bruce we'll get 20/21 who knows difficult for anyone to postulate but he looks slim and eager.

[MrMahatma]

He looks fit and ready to roll. No reason why he won't be the player we want him. Can't wait to have him back out there.

[macca]

It would be good to have Bruce back in the forward line to give Naughton support

It will also allow Buku/JUH ato take the third tall

We just need to sort out the fwd leading patterns and protect space

I would like to see the small fwd more get into position when the ball drops

Not convinced the smaller should be flying for pack marks

[EasternWest]

He looks fit and ready to roll. No reason why he won't be the player we want him. Can't wait to have him back out there.

Agreed. Fit Bruce gave us so much, and he is the ultimate booster.

[azabob]

***bump***

[jeemak]

I don't think the combination of Bont and Jacko is great for on field leadership, given both of these guys are major reasons for much of our malaise when we don't show up at the start of the game or adjust to really obvious trends in game.

We need to beef up our coaching ranks as well, and have had enough runway to do so.

Today there were so many instances of players being selfish and wanting to be the player to kick the football. I don't think I've ever seen so many players on the one side give each other sprays for not sharing the football in a single game, it was really obvious on the telecast with the multiple replays.

The players need to lift. Possibly the coaching does too but it's hard to tell.

[Sedat]

On every metric, 2022 has been a miserable failure across all aspects of the footy dept. They have failed woefully to get even close to their on-public record expectations. It is akin to the massive failures of Geelong 2006 and Richmond 2016 - the only silver lining is that we are now forced to conduct the utterly necessary full-scale review of every single aspect of the footy dept, and give ourselves the chance to come away with a similar result in 2023 to the other above examples in 2007 and 2017 respectively.