It's probably just me, but this team is hard to love!

[mjp]

I don't EXACTLY know how to put my finger on it, but for some reason the 'dogs post 2017 have been really HARD to LOVE.

2016 we were easy to love. 2017 those players had some cash in the supporter love bank. But from 2018 onwards...

Don't get me wrong - there are players who I think are amazing (Bont), but apart from Libba, Naughts and Caleb, I really just don't "love 'em". I don't know why.

I mean, I loved Dunks but the whole Essendon thing has soured me on him.
I WANT to love Gardner because of his battler status but somehow I just don't.
Tim is just too pretty and is the antithesis of the Hudson style ruckman who I have always been drawn too.
Bailey S? Umm. I don't know...the Cotton On stuff? Really? I guess it could be those stupid ads for tradie underwear or whatever but I just wonder who is advising him and what REALLY matters to him? Is footy as important to him as it appeared it was pre- draft???
Bailey Dale frustrated me so much as a forward that I still can't QUITE get there.
Jacko sooks it up when things aren't going his way.
Bailey Williams was there for me but something isn't right with him since the mid-point of last year...
Alex Keath is great - but somehow seems 'un-bulldog-like' - and just like things being 'un-strayan' I can't even really define what it means.
Westy is nearly there for me but the whole stuff with his Dad in the media last year was off putting.
Cody will no doubt be there but he DOES throw his head back for free-kicks and that is frustrating ('cos he DOESN'T need to do it).

I could go through the team but I will stop there...I guess there have been some games - think the way we finished the regular season last year - where the team just seems to play without care. And whilst I KNOW back in the old days we were terrible on a regular basis I just seem to remember that when the great coaches of my life were in charge (Wallace, Eade) we simply took care of business when we needed too...I still remember a headline from the Herald Sun once upon a time that said "Dogs have TRUE GRIT - What about the Rest" from the Wallace era after we won a Friday nighter vs North in what was an incredibly tight season.

Friday night? I mean, I got it wrong...I actually said that the forwards wouldn't get us, but our inability to stop kicking it to Stewart would. So much for that. But I had NO expectation we would win and was 100% not surprised when Geelong came out and kicked 3x coast-to-coast goals. And on top of that, every AFLW player we have is leaving to go 'somewhere else' and it's just doing my head in. Sure, of the past 5x 100+ point victories in the AFL we have had 4x of them...but that just re-inforces my feelings that we are flat track bullies who run their hardest when the ball is 'bouncing their way'.

Is it just me? Man, I hope it is.

[DOG GOD]

It’s not just you MJP. Some players I can’t gel with..most of those not deserving a game, let alone being AFL players, and yes I know, every team has them, but what I also don’t love is the blatant (well in my eyes) arrogance of team selection. And this isn’t on the players…so maybe it’s the MC I just can’t “love” , and my man crush for Bailey Dale and his normally elite kicking will continue ;)

[jeemak]

I referred to them as the most dishonest team I have seen play for the club in my decades of watching it.

So no, it's not just you.

Effort is conditional for this group, concentration is conditional for this group and reliable skill execution of the absolute basics is conditional for this group.

Very difficult to like, and outside of all the bullshit fan experience a major reason why I don't go to games.

[chef]

I feel like this group can't be trusted, effort is optional and maybe it's time for Bevo to dump a few big name guys to make a statement.

Makes you wonder how we made the GF last year with this group.

[Happy Days]

Nah I like em. I think Dunkley is a bit of a square but otherwise think they’re all pretty solid. Not like they’ve copped charges or anything.

[MrMahatma]

I love ‘em.

They frustrate me cause this is quickly moving into wasted season territory and we could actually have won so many more matches than we have.

End of the day though, I love ‘em.

[Grantysghost]

It's an interesting statement. We had a player that for mine was a pretty "Bulldog" type player in Trengove and we treated him like shit.
For a guy like that to leave with sour grapes makes me wonder what the culture is like behind closed doors as he was salt of the earth.
Clearly not a star, and expected to be 18-22 but he was genuinely baffled by his non selection at times (I got this first hand).
No one likes being "retired" but I think type that could've handled it if done right. Not sure I'm on thread with that but I'll leave it there xD
More on topic, there is a bit of truth in what you say for me. It's a hard team to connect with presently.

is it the pathway? Is it where these kids are coming from that makes them less "Everyman"? Less gritty? Bailey Smith is the antitheses of Bulldog.

[Danjul]

You refer to Friday’s game.

With 15 minutes to go I was expecting a win. And so was most of the crowd sitting near me. Geelong had stalled and we were in control. Geelong was battling to keep us out.

Then what do I see. Naughton in the ruck. We have gone into the game with one strong forward and he is in the ruck???

The problem is the sensational arrogance. Before the game we are told One ruck is enough because Geelong rucks are crap. We only need one tall forward because Geelong’s backline is crap. And our midfielders are unbeatable.

Only took 15 minutes to see it was all rubbish. The team battled on admirably only to be beaten in the end by Geelong looking for their second tall specialist forward. Who’s ever heard of a a team having a second tall forward?

It is not the players. It is the rubbish game plan that they have to keep polishing.

[Hotdog60]

It's an interesting statement. We had a player that for mine was a pretty "Bulldog" type player in Trengove and we treated him like shit.
For a guy like that to leave with sour grapes makes me wonder what the culture is like behind closed doors as he was salt of the earth.
Clearly not a star, and expected to be 18-22 but he was genuinely baffled by his non selection at times (I got this first hand).
No one likes being "retired" but I think type that could've handled it if done right. Not sure I'm on thread with that but I'll leave it there xD
More on topic, there is a bit of truth in what you say for me. It's a hard team to connect with presently.

is it the pathway? Is it where these kids are coming from that makes them less "Everyman"? Less gritty? Bailey Smith is the antitheses of Bulldog.

Speak for yourself I'm hanging out for it 44 years of work and I'm ready do want I want to do.:D

Sorry you were talking about footballers :o

[Grantysghost]

Speak for yourself I'm hanging out for it 44 years of work and I'm ready do want I want to do.:D

Sorry you were talking about footballers :o

Ha gold.

[bornadog]

I love this team, as I do all Bulldog teams

* Love to watch The Bont, especially his long kicking with his big left foot,

* Love watching Naughton flying through the air, and if he misses the mark, but still manages to pounce on the ball,

* Love watching Libba dig that ball out of a pack, or flip the handball over his head to a player running past.

* Love watching Tim English develop his ruck skills but also the around the ground work

* Love watching Weightman and what he brings to the forward line

* Love watching Macrae work hard and rack up so many possessions in a consistent manor

* Love watching Adz bouncing and running towards goal

* Love the backline players in Dale, Caleb and Ed

* Love watching Bailey Smith get better and better, he is strong, quick and a real bull

Just to name a few.

Looking forward to seeing JUH and Darcy develop in the future, and seeing what Arty can do.

[bornadog]

It's an interesting statement. We had a player that for mine was a pretty "Bulldog" type player in Trengove and we treated him like shit.
For a guy like that to leave with sour grapes makes me wonder what the culture is like behind closed doors as he was salt of the earth.
Clearly not a star, and expected to be 18-22 but he was genuinely baffled by his non selection at times (I got this first hand).
No one likes being "retired" but I think type that could've handled it if done right. Not sure I'm on thread with that but I'll leave it there xD
More on topic, there is a bit of truth in what you say for me. It's a hard team to connect with presently.

is it the pathway? Is it where these kids are coming from that makes them less "Everyman"? Less gritty? Bailey Smith is the antitheses of Bulldog.

Trengove was past his best

[josie]

I love them but they are so frustrating. Feel like we need a few more Libba & Westy types-tough nuts. We are lacking on field grit and leadership. As a consequence Bont I think tries to achieve too much with his kicks.

Apart from the head butt I mostly enjoy Baz. He does seem to give his all when he is on field and the publicity for the club from his lucrative deals sits ok with me. Careers can be short so I do not bemoan him, I just hope he stays with us. We are living in a different world then the dour dogs of the past.

Love the silky skills of Dale, Daniel, Bont. And Naughts is simply for me the most exciting player in RWB I’ve seen, even better then Johnno and Grant.

And the seeming favouritism shown to some fringe players when others are not afforded same 2/3/4 chances, mc selections resulting in a non balanced team and year upon year issues with ruck are infuriating. I’m definitely not as emotionally invested this year, it’s like I know I’ll be disappointed if I am. I’ll still go to games and still enjoy watching the young ones develop in the the vfl. AFLW player loss is just heartbreaking but the ones who are loyal like Ellie, Kirsty, Fitzy, Browny in turn deserve our loyalty although again I’m not as invested as I was.

[merantau]

I get the impression that we don't have a lot of extroverts in the team. Blokes who really play with passion and despise getting beat in a contest as individuals and as a team.

The first quarter against Geelong was deplorable. It doesn't matter what we did after that. The ONLY way to make up for it was to WIN the game and we didn't. So 'yes', for me it is getting hard to really like this team.

I am usually pretty optimistic however, in the second half of this year, I have a feeling that we are going to perform really well against the teams above us but then, inexplicably, drop games to teams we are favoured to beat. That is a very Bulldog thing to do, I'm afraid.

I can see us missing the 8 on percentage in a worst case scenario. Best case we finish 5th or 6th. In between result 7th or 8th. As we know Finals are a new ball game and we have shown that if we get there anything can happen.

[Grantysghost]

Trengove was past his best

He was dropped when he was at his best for us in 2019 which wasn't terrible form.
I was speaking more about his character and how it ended non amicably.

[Grantysghost]

I love this team, as I do all Bulldog teams

* Love to watch The Bont, especially his long kicking with his big left foot,

* Love watching Naughton flying through the air, and if he misses the mark, but still manages to pounce on the ball,

* Love watching Libba dig that ball out of a pack, or flip the handball over his head to a player running past.

* Love watching Tim English develop his ruck skills but also the around the ground work

* Love watching Weightman and what he brings to the forward line

* Love watching Macrae work hard and rack up so many possessions in a consistent manor

* Love watching Adz bouncing and running towards goal

* Love the backline players in Dale, Caleb and Ed

* Love watching Bailey Smith get better and better, he is strong, quick and a real bull

Just to name a few.

Looking forward to seeing JUH and Darcy develop in the future, and seeing what Arty can do.

You loved watching Billy Gowers celebrate like he just won the Melbourne cup!

[Danjul]

I love this team, as I do all Bulldog teams

* Love watching Naughton flying through the air, and if he misses the mark, but still manages to pounce on the ball,

That’s where we differ. You obviously enjoyed his goal on Friday but I was annoyed that the team selection meant that he was double tagged and wasted In the ruck all night and didn’t get the other 4 we needed.

All night we saw the ball bounce out of the scoring area because the whole team believes the way to victory is through Naughton flying above packs. Same against Adelaide when Schache was moved forward just in time to be dropped for getting only 2 goals in the second half.

[bornadog]

You loved watching Billy Gowers celebrate like he just won the Melbourne cup!

When did I say that?

[bornadog]

That’s where we differ. You obviously enjoyed his goal on Friday but I was annoyed that the team selection meant that he was double tagged and wasted In the ruck all night and didn’t get the other 4 we needed.

All night we saw the ball bounce out of the scoring area because the whole team believes the way to victory is through Naughton flying above packs. Same against Adelaide when Schache was moved forward just in time to be dropped for getting only 2 goals in the second half.

Naughton Kicked 48 goals last year, and has 30 in 12 games. He was the top contested mark last year and this year he sits on 6th out of what 700 plus players in AFL? He is also 4th for tackles inside 50, other talls no where near it.

Yes I love watching Naughton play

[whythelongface]

You refer to Friday’s game.

With 15 minutes to go I was expecting a win. And so was most of the crowd sitting near me. Geelong had stalled and we were in control. Geelong was battling to keep us out.

Then what do I see. Naughton in the ruck. We have gone into the game with one strong forward and he is in the ruck???

The problem is the sensational arrogance. Before the game we are told One ruck is enough because Geelong rucks are crap. We only need one tall forward because Geelong’s backline is crap. And our midfielders are unbeatable.

Only took 15 minutes to see it was all rubbish. The team battled on admirably only to be beaten in the end by Geelong looking for their second tall specialist forward. Who’s ever heard of a a team having a second tall forward?

It is not the players. It is the rubbish game plan that they have to keep polishing.

But it is the players. If we didn’t let their mids dominate I the early stages of the game we probably wouldn’t have lost. How can this not be the players? I get you don’t rate Bevo but it ain’t him on the field serving up the crap of not getting their hands on the ball. Apart from getting out their himself what the hell is he meant to do. When are we going to hold our players accountable for some of the shit dished out rather than just blaming the coach and the game plan. We win the 1st quarter we win the game.

[whythelongface]

This team is so frustrating but I still love ‘em. It sucks that we don’t live up to our potential and it sucks that we are waiting away the opportunity for another flag with a core group of very talented players but I still love ‘em. They represent the Bulldogs so of course I love ‘em. How can you not? Did you not live team in 2004 (or was it 2003) when we were rock bottom and finished last, or through the McCartney years when we we had talent but no coaching nous or do you only love the team when we are living up to our potential (rhetoric question and I know the answer)?

[The bulldog tragician]

I think I know where you’re coming from MJP. There was something so magical about 2016 that captured us all. There were young kids who just didn’t buy into our story of failure. There were veterans who’d seen heartbreak and were hanging on for dear life to get a flag. There were battlers rejected by other clubs or cruelled by injury who had an insatiable desire for the footy. There was a coach who was able to, amazingly, gel and inspire them all. Everything he touched turned to gold.

This “group” doesn’t have the same story. Sure we still have some of those same guys, the remaining premiership boys who have in the main gone on, inevitably, to sometimes disappoint us. The departures of others in various ways were disillusioning even when necessary. There are newer guys haven’t quite caught our imagination the same way, with the exception of Aaron Naughton. [re Bailey smith, I actually think he plays a surprisingly blue collar brand of footy at odds with his image off field]. There are battlers who are harder to root for because while they are good stories, we can also see their limitations.

I don’t care as much if they win or lose as much as I used to. The brilliance of those finals wins v Bris and Port can’t even be celebrated as much because of the way the group lost the GF. Covid has also led to a certain detachment. I still love the club. And I’ve been there for so many other crap terrible seasons. Maybe we’re in a holding pattern waiting for a new story to emerge?

Maybe just because we saw the greatest premiership fairytale ever and nothing can top it.

[Grantysghost]

But it is the players. If we didn’t let their mids dominate I the early stages of the game we probably wouldn’t have lost. How can this not be the players? I get you don’t rate Bevo but it ain’t him on the field serving up the crap of not getting their hands on the ball. Apart from getting out their himself what the hell is he meant to do. When are we going to hold our players accountable for some of the shit dished out rather than just blaming the coach and the game plan. We win the 1st quarter we win the game.

When the players do well though the coach never cops any criticism either.
So when is it OK to question the tactics?

[Danjul]

Naughton Kicked 48 goals last year, and has 30 in 12 games. He was the top contested mark last year and this year he sits on 6th out of what 700 plus players in AFL? He is also 4th for tackles inside 50, other talls no where near it.

Yes I love watching Naughton play

He got 1 goal yesterday. You should be allowed to watch him play and take contested marks and kick even more goals while I watch a winning team. And that’s a game we should have won (along with others this year) where a lot of his firepower was wasted.

I could not believe how many ruck contests he attended, and in my opinion each one takes us further from a win.

Not criticising him, just the game plan he is playing in. Double teamed because the opposition has no one else to guard and then out in the ruck

[Grantysghost]

He got 1 goal yesterday. You should be allowed to watch him play and take contested marks and kick even more goals while I watch a winning team. And that’s a game we should have won (along with others this year) where a lot of his firepower was wasted.

I could not believe how many ruck contests he attended, and in my opinion each one takes us further from a win.

Not criticising him, just the game plan he is playing in. Double teamed because the opposition has no one else to guard and then out in the ruck

He attended 12 ruck contests.

English 57
Stanley 54
Blicavs 21
Khamis 13
Hawkins 9

[Danjul]

But it is the players. If we didn’t let their mids dominate I the early stages of the game we probably wouldn’t have lost. How can this not be the players? I get you don’t rate Bevo but it ain’t him on the field serving up the crap of not getting their hands on the ball. Apart from getting out their himself what the hell is he meant to do. When are we going to hold our players accountable for some of the shit dished out rather than just blaming the coach and the game plan. We win the 1st quarter we win the game.
In the early minutes we had entries into the scoring zone and the ball bounced straight out again. We had only one forward target, being double tagged. Who didn’t see that coming? Look at English’s two kicks into the left forward pocket at about the 10 minute mark. By the end of the quarter we still had only 3 less scoring shots. And the same problem continued until the end of the game.

The sections of the game plan that led to the defeat are the same sections that have failed previously in the season. Who sees them coming good in the last half? I hope their optimism is rewarded.

[whythelongface]

When the players do well though the coach never cops any criticism either.
So when is it OK to question the tactics?

Nothing wrong with questioning tactics, selections or any other coaching decisions but there needs to be more scrutiny placed on our playing group, particularly our midfield, for the crap that was dished out in the first quarter. That is not the fault of the coach. These guys are experienced enough to prevent this from happening yet it happens on a regular basis. But some put this solely on the coach.

[whythelongface]

In the early minutes we had entries into the scoring zone and the ball bounced straight out again. We had only one forward target, being double tagged. Who didn’t see that coming? Look at English’s two kicks into the left forward pocket at about the 10 minute mark. By the end of the quarter we still had only 3 less scoring shots. And the same problem continued until the end of the game.

The sections of the game plan that led to the defeat are the same sections that have failed previously in the season. Who sees them coming good in the last half? I hope their optimism is rewarded.

Yes there are selection issues and another tall target may have helped but it doesn’t change the ease at which Geelong transitioned and also winning the clearances and early contested footy. No coaching is changing that attitude. The on field leadership could have stemmed the tide and taken responsibility. Rather than being 34 points down at qtr time we could have been half that and presto we probably win the game. Ain’t tactics to me but simply players needing to work harder. Don’t need a 2nd ruck to prevent this from happening, this was early when all players were fresh. They should have been primed instead they bent over and let Geelong dominate.

[Danjul]

He attended 12 ruck contests.

English 57
Stanley 54
Blicavs 21
Khamis 13
Hawkins 9
I could be wrong here but When Hawkins took ruck contests they were close to goal and there was still a tall forward free.

Khamis was our second ruck, he should be taking more of the ruck load than our full forward and allowing the forward to be a moving target. Just my opinion. Maybe I am not taking these losses as well as others.

[Grantysghost]

Nothing wrong with questioning tactics, selections or any other coaching decisions but there needs to be more scrutiny placed on our playing group, particularly our midfield, for the crap that was dished out in the first quarter. That is not the fault of the coach. These guys are experienced enough to prevent this from happening yet it happens on a regular basis. But some put this solely on the coach.

I don't disagree, however just to continue along the counter point our game plan is very midfield dependant. We push up a half forward to the contest most times and try to outnumber and overlap.
If this isn't "on" or our mids who lift a fair load for us are off what's the fall back?
Where's the go slow tempo shift?
I think it's an equal measure of tactics, recruitment and acute performance/intensity fluctuations so to discount the former appears to be somewhat disingenuous to me.

It's a good discussion.

[GVGjr]

I have no problem loving the team and the players but I do get frustrated that we aren't matching the quality of the playing list with results on the field.
The most frustrating part is we don't address the gaps in the off season like we should.

[jeemak]

I referred to them as the most dishonest team I have seen play for the club in my decades of watching it.

So no, it's not just you.

Effort is conditional for this group, concentration is conditional for this group and reliable skill execution of the absolute basics is conditional for this group.

Very difficult to like, and outside of all the bullshit fan experience a major reason why I don't go to games.

To clarify, I still love the players (and the club)......but it doesn't mean they make it easy to like them all of the time.

What they dished up in the first quarter on Friday night was inexcusable. The rest of the game was actually pretty good given the task they had in front of them after the first five minutes of the second quarter. It's just what we saw in the first quarter happens too often with them and it's not OK.

[jeemak]

I don't disagree, however just to continue along the counter point our game plan is very midfield dependant. We push up a half forward to the contest most times and try to outnumber and overlap.
If this isn't "on" or our mids who lift a fair load for us are off what's the fall back?
Where's the go slow tempo shift?
I think it's an equal measure of tactics, recruitment and acute performance/intensity fluctuations so to discount the former appears to be somewhat disingenuous to me.

It's a good discussion.

I thought we managed different tempos and ball movement in response to how Scott set up the ground quite well in order to get back to almost parity on the scoreboard and actually win the last three quarters of the game (doesn't matter, or course).

The midfield dependent game plan is out of necessity due to the nature of our unbalanced list. If we try and play traditionally, we will get cut up or so the theory goes.

In the last three drafts we've actually recruited specialist players with our three first picks to address weaknesses we knew we had. I would hope/ suspect we do the same at the next draft.......well hope more than suspect because you never know.

[Grantysghost]

I thought we managed different tempos and ball movement in response to how Scott set up the ground quite well in order to get back to almost parity on the scoreboard and actually win the last three quarters of the game (doesn't matter, or course).

The midfield dependent game plan is out of necessity due to the nature of our unbalanced list. If we try and play traditionally, we will get cut up or so the theory goes.

In the last three drafts we've actually recruited specialist players with our three first picks to address weaknesses we knew we had. I would hope/ suspect we do the same at the next draft.......well hope more than suspect because you never know.

Should've went that way about the 5 min mark of the first!

[ReLoad]

For me it’s not about the love of the players, it’s just a pair of giant disconnects;

1. Individually we’ve got an amazing team, I look across the lines and see genuine quality. But as a team they are stinking it up, the output doesn’t match the hypothetical output.

2. Leadership, yes the bont has it and is unquestionably our man who leads from the front, but leadership on field goes missing often for whole quarters. Last years GF and Q1 Friday night are great examples, every loss this year you can put it down to a period when we were passengers on a leadership-less boat.

I know I’m shooting bambi in our greatest ever coach Bevo, but Jesus he’s stubborn. Almost to the point of sheer bloody mindedness.

[whythelongface]

I don't disagree, however just to continue along the counter point our game plan is very midfield dependant. We push up a half forward to the contest most times and try to outnumber and overlap.
If this isn't "on" or our mids who lift a fair load for us are off what's the fall back?
Where's the go slow tempo shift?
I think it's an equal measure of tactics, recruitment and acute performance/intensity fluctuations so to discount the former appears to be somewhat disingenuous to me.

It's a good discussion.

I get all the stuff about tactics, recruitment, selections and no doubt there are issues in these areas that need addressing but the despite all that the players need to be accountable for the onfield performance. The first 5 mins of the game we bombed it long or couldn’t find a target in our forward 50. Bang intercept. To me that doesn’t suggest tactics - granted selection issues - but still you play with what you have. After those first 5 mins we let Geelong take control and continuously waltz into their forward line, playing to their strengths of playing one out. I just don’t get how we can’t adjust quickly enough from preventing the opposition from getting a run on. Prevent that from happening and, despite our dysfunctional forward line, we win the game.

[1eyedog]

I don't EXACTLY know how to put my finger on it, but for some reason the 'dogs post 2017 have been really HARD to LOVE.

2016 we were easy to love. 2017 those players had some cash in the supporter love bank. But from 2018 onwards...

Don't get me wrong - there are players who I think are amazing (Bont), but apart from Libba, Naughts and Caleb, I really just don't "love 'em". I don't know why.

I mean, I loved Dunks but the whole Essendon thing has soured me on him.
I WANT to love Gardner because of his battler status but somehow I just don't.
Tim is just too pretty and is the antithesis of the Hudson style ruckman who I have always been drawn too.
Bailey S? Umm. I don't know...the Cotton On stuff? Really? I guess it could be those stupid ads for tradie underwear or whatever but I just wonder who is advising him and what REALLY matters to him? Is footy as important to him as it appeared it was pre- draft???
Bailey Dale frustrated me so much as a forward that I still can't QUITE get there.
Jacko sooks it up when things aren't going his way.
Bailey Williams was there for me but something isn't right with him since the mid-point of last year...
Alex Keath is great - but somehow seems 'un-bulldog-like' - and just like things being 'un-strayan' I can't even really define what it means.
Westy is nearly there for me but the whole stuff with his Dad in the media last year was off putting.
Cody will no doubt be there but he DOES throw his head back for free-kicks and that is frustrating ('cos he DOESN'T need to do it).

I could go through the team but I will stop there...I guess there have been some games - think the way we finished the regular season last year - where the team just seems to play without care. And whilst I KNOW back in the old days we were terrible on a regular basis I just seem to remember that when the great coaches of my life were in charge (Wallace, Eade) we simply took care of business when we needed too...I still remember a headline from the Herald Sun once upon a time that said "Dogs have TRUE GRIT - What about the Rest" from the Wallace era after we won a Friday nighter vs North in what was an incredibly tight season.

Friday night? I mean, I got it wrong...I actually said that the forwards wouldn't get us, but our inability to stop kicking it to Stewart would. So much for that. But I had NO expectation we would win and was 100% not surprised when Geelong came out and kicked 3x coast-to-coast goals. And on top of that, every AFLW player we have is leaving to go 'somewhere else' and it's just doing my head in. Sure, of the past 5x 100+ point victories in the AFL we have had 4x of them...but that just re-inforces my feelings that we are flat track bullies who run their hardest when the ball is 'bouncing their way'.

Is it just me? Man, I hope it is.

Maybe I liked certain players as a kid but I don't give a crap about them individually all I care about is that the Bulldogs get 4 points.

[bornadog]

I could be wrong here but When Hawkins took ruck contests they were close to goal and there was still a tall forward free.

Khamis was our second ruck, he should be taking more of the ruck load than our full forward and allowing the forward to be a moving target. Just my opinion. Maybe I am not taking these losses as well as others.

Naughton only took the ruck contests close to goal, just like the Coleman medallist with his 9.

The 12 Naughton ruck contests (which he won 4 ), didn't change the game, it is not ideal, but we don't have a proper 2nd ruck.

[bornadog]

Maybe I liked certain players as a kid but I don't give a crap about them individually all I care about is that the Bulldogs get 4 points.

Don't you enjoy watching the skills of Bont or Naughton flying etc etc?

4 Points is the best of course that is what it is all about.

[SonofScray]

They are missing a few important Bulldog ingredients. I don’t trust them a great deal to meet the lofty expectations I have of the group, mostly because as a group, they are physically weak.

[bornadog]

They are missing a few important Bulldog ingredients. I don’t trust them a great deal to meet the lofty expectations I have of the group, mostly because as a group, they are physically weak.

How do you measure physically weak?

[Grantysghost]

I get all the stuff about tactics, recruitment, selections and no doubt there are issues in these areas that need addressing but the despite all that the players need to be accountable for the onfield performance. The first 5 mins of the game we bombed it long or couldn’t find a target in our forward 50. Bang intercept. To me that doesn’t suggest tactics - granted selection issues - but still you play with what you have. After those first 5 mins we let Geelong take control and continuously waltz into their forward line, playing to their strengths of playing one out. I just don’t get how we can’t adjust quickly enough from preventing the opposition from getting a run on. Prevent that from happening and, despite our dysfunctional forward line, we win the game.

Ive noticed recently teams go on big runs of goals and it’s very hard to negate them with 666, stand etc.

[bornadog]

Ive noticed recently teams go on big runs of goals and it’s very hard to negate them with 666, stand etc.

The old days you just start a big fight and stop the momentum

[Bullies]

They are missing a few important Bulldog ingredients. I don’t trust them a great deal to meet the lofty expectations I have of the group, mostly because as a group, they are physically weak. I think the list of players we currently have playing in the team from 15 - 22 are very ordinary. In 2016 those players ranked 15 - 22 won us the flag. It is so frustrating watching guys like McComb, Khamis (he needs time in 2's), O'Brien, McNeill, Scott continue to get a game week in, week out. Understanding we have injuries but to draft someone like McComb at 27 who butchers the ball in the 2's and has limited skill is staggering. Same with O'Brien who couldn't get a game at Hawthorn and they barely won a game in the past couple of years.

[Mantis]

I think the list of players we currently have playing in the team from 15 - 22 are very ordinary. In 2016 those players ranked 15 - 22 won us the flag. It is so frustrating watching guys like McComb, Khamis (he needs time in 2's), O'Brien, McNeill, Scott continue to get a game week in, week out. Understanding we have injuries but to draft someone like McComb at 27 who butchers the ball in the 2's and has limited skill is staggering. Same with O'Brien who couldn't get a game at Hawthorn and they barely won a game in the past couple of years.

Do you have anything to back up this claim? He's played greater than 80% of the games over the past 3 years and when he was missing he was injured.

[bornadog]

Do you have anything to back up this claim? He's played greater than 80% of the games over the past 3 years and when he was missing he was injured.

Plus when he was moved to the backline, I think last year, he was playing very well, regularly taking lots of intercept marks.

[Bulldog4life]

From 1961 when I went to the Grand Final I have loved our team unconditionally. I have loved and respected every player who has pulled on the tri colour jumper. I was taught the above from my late dad who was bulldog through and through. "You got to stick fat son" he used to say as we trudged home after another thrashing when Royce was coach. "Finishing down the bottom of the ladder builds character son". "The good times will come" he would say. God we nearly lost our beloved doggies. How could you not love them is more the question.

[soupman]

I think MJP your opening post targets the wrong culprit. It isn't the players individually that are hard to love, I'd argue they are no different to any other era and could just as easily make similiar comments about say our 2009 side. It's them as a collective, or rather the "team" that is hard to love.

These players are frustrating because as a team they are frustrating.

It's one of the three main reasons we are difficult to follow.

One, our gameplan. Our gameplan is centred around trying to dominate in the middle, ping the ball around and through sustained pressure and volume of possession overwhelm the opposition. When it works it's great, when it doesn't work there is no resilience in the system and we are super vulnerable. If we are not "on" we are as off as any other team in the comp, see the end of the GF or the first quarter this week. It makes it so much harder to like our players on an individual basis when they are frequently exposed in crucial moments as not being up to it because our gameplan generates endless crucial moments to test them out with. Jed Bews at Geelong is shithouse but never gets put in scenarios where he has to win crucial contests or kick an important goal because their gameplan actively avoids putting him and his type in those scenarios. Meanwhile Robbie McComb or Zaine Cordy constantly get asked to perform crucial functions for us because of the way we set up.

Two, the chance we give ourselves off field. Our list management and MC are a shitshow. We continually do not help ourselves. Namely our refusal to address our list imbalances and our MC madness where we furiously buck convention every chance we get which is good if it works but looks terrible if it doesn't. This means the players who are entrusted to perform these roles get judged harshly, because they aren't the players that should be performing them. Mitch Hannan playing as the blocking tall/second ruck gets killed on here, yet the role he is being asked to play is challenging to say the least. Gardner is the best lock down defender we have got outside of Keath and thus is continually asked to outperform his ability, there's only so long that you can root for the underdog before getting shitty that Gardner is again not up to it up against someone like Tom Hawkins or Jeremy Cameron. Even someone like the incredibly likeable Buku Khamis who was so fun to watch in the first one or two games he played forward is going to see the tide turn as we get frustrated that this kid who is being asked to play as our second main marking target and second ruck is not able to deliver in any meaningful manner.

Three, we can't trust them as a collective. This team has big flaws as a group. It's hard to pinpoint individuals because they do these things en mass. The cause; maybe attitude, maybe lack of leadership, maybe a high intensity gameplan that is difficult to get up for every quarter every week and asks a lot of them execution wise. We continually ask them to play out of their skins to beat anyone decent. We never play well on cruise mode, that must be difficult to do. Regardless as a collective it feels like sometimes our pressure isn't there, nor our willingness to win, plus we have so few players that genuinely feel like they do not accept failure. Libba is maybe the only one who can drag us through a shit patch of form/attitude. We cannot trust these guys to always turn up, or to just get the job done even when they aren't "on". We are not a professional outfit in that sense like Geelong has been for over a decade, or Hawthorn were in their times of dominance, or like Sydney have virtually always been.

All the above breed contempt for the individual on the spot in that moment. It's a system that has so little room for error because it is built on a series of individual moments all coming together instead of a well built system that just steamrolls any obstacles in its way.

When we fail to perform to expectations there are so many obvious culprits, and expectations are high. This is a side that through individual and collective talent plus this gameplan can beat anybody, and have done as such in big games. But when you are capable of so much it means anything short of that stands out massively. It's the hope that kills you. The Rocket era side you could trust would perform but only up to a certain level, they could never hit that truly elite level. This side can beat anybody in any game, but you can't trust them to always turn up and certainly not do it at half pace.

I guess this team is hard to love not because of who they are as individuals but because they are capable of being so good, and when they aren't the reasons for the downfall seem so easily fixable, as they are all individual moments or points of failure, where it's easy to get frustrated at the players in question for failing as the system is built to require them all to always succeed.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great post soup.

I was going to post, but I can't beat that.

Sums up my feeling on the team / club perfectly.

[Grantysghost]

Great post soup.

I was going to post, but I can't beat that.

Sums up my feeling on the team / club perfectly.

Agree that's pretty spot on soup thanks.

[comrade]

Mic drop.

[1eyedog]

Don't you enjoy watching the skills of Bont or Naughton flying etc etc?

4 Points is the best of course that is what it is all about.

Of course I do but only in the context of scoring a goal which moves us closer to 4 points by the end of the game. Acts of brilliance or hustled opportunistic goals don't bother me so much as long as we win. It's all about winning not too fussed how we get there or who plays well or what they do in a game to facilitate that.

[Rocco Jones]

Totally with soup. I am a Celtics fan (typing this whilst during timeouts and breaks) and the way they have played as a team since Jan is amazing. I love them as a team but also a lot more individually because of it.

We all have our personal tastes and get mjp might not like certain traits. I think Dunks, outside of truly gross stuff, is the worst/most boring type of jock but whatever. Other than him, I am more or less as okay with the guys as I have ever been. They are footy players and I am a leftist nerd, probably the less I know about them as humans, the better. But again whatever. Just don't do anything truly awful.

[1eyedog]

I think MJP your opening post targets the wrong culprit. It isn't the players individually that are hard to love, I'd argue they are no different to any other era and could just as easily make similiar comments about say our 2009 side. It's them as a collective, or rather the "team" that is hard to love.

These players are frustrating because as a team they are frustrating.

It's one of the three main reasons we are difficult to follow.

One, our gameplan. Our gameplan is centred around trying to dominate in the middle, ping the ball around and through sustained pressure and volume of possession overwhelm the opposition. When it works it's great, when it doesn't work there is no resilience in the system and we are super vulnerable. If we are not "on" we are as off as any other team in the comp, see the end of the GF or the first quarter this week. It makes it so much harder to like our players on an individual basis when they are frequently exposed in crucial moments as not being up to it because our gameplan generates endless crucial moments to test them out with. Jed Bews at Geelong is shithouse but never gets put in scenarios where he has to win crucial contests or kick an important goal because their gameplan actively avoids putting him and his type in those scenarios. Meanwhile Robbie McComb or Zaine Cordy constantly get asked to perform crucial functions for us because of the way we set up.

Two, the chance we give ourselves off field. Our list management and MC are a shitshow. We continually do not help ourselves. Namely our refusal to address our list imbalances and our MC madness where we furiously buck convention every chance we get which is good if it works but looks terrible if it doesn't. This means the players who are entrusted to perform these roles get judged harshly, because they aren't the players that should be performing them. Mitch Hannan playing as the blocking tall/second ruck gets killed on here, yet the role he is being asked to play is challenging to say the least. Gardner is the best lock down defender we have got outside of Keath and thus is continually asked to outperform his ability, there's only so long that you can root for the underdog before getting shitty that Gardner is again not up to it up against someone like Tom Hawkins or Jeremy Cameron. Even someone like the incredibly likeable Buku Khamis who was so fun to watch in the first one or two games he played forward is going to see the tide turn as we get frustrated that this kid who is being asked to play as our second main marking target and second ruck is not able to deliver in any meaningful manner.

Three, we can't trust them as a collective. This team has big flaws as a group. It's hard to pinpoint individuals because they do these things en mass. The cause; maybe attitude, maybe lack of leadership, maybe a high intensity gameplan that is difficult to get up for every quarter every week and asks a lot of them execution wise. We continually ask them to play out of their skins to beat anyone decent. We never play well on cruise mode, that must be difficult to do. Regardless as a collective it feels like sometimes our pressure isn't there, nor our willingness to win, plus we have so few players that genuinely feel like they do not accept failure. Libba is maybe the only one who can drag us through a shit patch of form/attitude. We cannot trust these guys to always turn up, or to just get the job done even when they aren't "on". We are not a professional outfit in that sense like Geelong has been for over a decade, or Hawthorn were in their times of dominance, or like Sydney have virtually always been.

All the above breed contempt for the individual on the spot in that moment. It's a system that has so little room for error because it is built on a series of individual moments all coming together instead of a well built system that just steamrolls any obstacles in its way.

When we fail to perform to expectations there are so many obvious culprits, and expectations are high. This is a side that through individual and collective talent plus this gameplan can beat anybody, and have done as such in big games. But when you are capable of so much it means anything short of that stands out massively. It's the hope that kills you. The Rocket era side you could trust would perform but only up to a certain level, they could never hit that truly elite level. This side can beat anybody in any game, but you can't trust them to always turn up and certainly not do it at half pace.

I guess this team is hard to love not because of who they are as individuals but because they are capable of being so good, and when they aren't the reasons for the downfall seem so easily fixable, as they are all individual moments or points of failure, where it's easy to get frustrated at the players in question for failing as the system is built to require them all to always succeed.

A great post thank you it has made me quite concerned because to me the points appear to indicate the issue is upstairs as opposed to anything the players are / aren't doing on the ground.

[Grantysghost]

Can anyone speak to another of MJP's issues around the women's program.
The Vflw team is completely uncompetitive and the AFL side we've lost so much talent it's basically a rebuild.


Like wtf.

[mjp]

Maybe Soup has summarised how I really feel.

Don't get me wrong - I've only watched two games all weekend (sorry - it's a holiday here today, you guys are next week) and only really cared about the 'Dogs game. I still desperately want us to win...I just don't/can't feel the same connection. Maybe it's the group, maybe it's individuals...like I said, I can't QUITE put my finger on what it actually is....something isn't right though (for me) and when I watch us play it is like there is something not QUITE right for the players as well...

[bornadog]

Maybe Soup has summarised how I really feel.

Don't get me wrong - I've only watched two games all weekend (sorry - it's a holiday here today, you guys are next week) and only really cared about the 'Dogs game. I still desperately want us to win...I just don't/can't feel the same connection. Maybe it's the group, maybe it's individuals...like I said, I can't QUITE put my finger on what it actually is....something isn't right though (for me) and when I watch us play it is like there is something not QUITE right for the players as well...

Well maybe it is just a passion for watching footy and that there are other factors effecting you.???????

As you know from reading my posts (maybe you don't), I have from way back called out the changes being made to the game through rules. This last two years and especially this year, I have found the game very frustrating to watch all due to the Hocking rules and now the Scott rules on dissent. The umpires are now over technical, many rules are being interpreted differently than their original intention . eg taking out the legs, chopping the arms. Good example is in the Pies game for the free against Darcy Moore in the square. Moore was clearly at the ball first sliding on his stomach to knock it through for a point and then the Hawks player ran in and fellover his legs. It was a free to the Hawks and goal. That rule was brought in to stop players sliding in feet first into a pack and injuring players, not to stop players getting on their hands and knees to get a ball.

Every single pack marking contest there is a free. Chopping of the arms was put up to stop backman actually chopping arms, not going for the ball and touching another players arms, the players aren't robots.

I can go on and on, but what I am saying is these rules are now getting to me and I find it hard to watch matches.

Posters can talk about all the things wrong at the club like recruitment, or selection, or not having a tall etc etc - to me that is normal. I can go back to last year and there were the same conversions - sack the coach, why didn't we get another ruck, Gardner is not good enough etc etc - yet we made a Grand Final. BUT - passion for the club and the team is another thing all together.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

As a product, football is pretty ordinary right now.

Over officiated, rules that have taken out some of yesteryear's highlights (i.e. the bump) and the one thing nobody mentions - a SEVERELY diluted talent pool. An 18 team competition in this country is too much when it comes down to quality. The bottom 5-6 on each list, at a guess, have no business being on an AFL list to begin with (harsh, but wouldn't have got a shot 10+ years ago).

[bornadog]

As a product, football is pretty ordinary right now.

Over officiated, rules that have taken out some of yesteryear's highlights (i.e. the bump) and the one thing nobody mentions - a SEVERELY diluted talent pool. An 18 team competition in this country is too much when it comes down to quality. The bottom 5-6 on each list, at a guess, have no business being on an AFL list to begin with (harsh, but wouldn't have got a shot 10+ years ago).

I hope they don't bring in a new club for Tassie - harsh but real. Talent pool will be diluted even more

[comrade]

Footy peaked in 2016.

Our ‘men of mayhem’ run and gun handball style was tough yet exhilarating in full flight and was an antidote to the clinical but pretty boring short kicking game plan Hawthorn had perfected, third man up allowed around the ground ruck contests to clear more easily and stupid rules like 666, the man on the mark bullshit and ‘dissent’ 50s hadn’t yet polluted the game.

Also, the greatest ever game of Australian rules football was played that year (our prelim) and there’s a reason nothing has come close to it since.

[jeemak]

Great post Soup.

As an aside, let's not forget how ordinary we were in 2008 and 2009 in qualifying finals. We literally didn't show up to consecutive qualifying first quarters much like we didn't show up against GWS three years ago, the Saints two years ago and Geelong on Friday night. Funnily, that side actually had some of the exact same issues as this current one on an individual player perspective, and also had to play an extremely taxing style to be its best due to a lack of personnel dictating a game plan that required absolute focus across the ground.

Additionally, they accounted for themselves when the heat was really on quite well (prelims from those years) - much like the current team can.

We need a review of our recruiting methodologies/ list management.

[jeemak]

Footy peaked in 2016.

Our ‘men of mayhem’ run and gun handball style was tough yet exhilarating in full flight and was an antidote to the clinical but pretty boring short kicking game plan Hawthorn had perfected, third man up allowed around the ground ruck contests to clear more easily and stupid rules like 666, the man on the mark bullshit and ‘dissent’ 50s hadn’t yet polluted the game.

Also, the greatest ever game of Australian rules football was played that year (our prelim) and there’s a reason nothing has come close to it since.

You're not allowed to call it the best ever because it wasn't a grand final and didn't involve one of the big Melbourne clubs. Get it together mate.

[jeemak]

Totally with soup. I am a Celtics fan (typing this whilst during timeouts and breaks) and the way they have played as a team since Jan is amazing. I love them as a team but also a lot more individually because of it.

We all have our personal tastes and get mjp might not like certain traits. I think Dunks, outside of truly gross stuff, is the worst/most boring type of jock but whatever. Other than him, I am more or less as okay with the guys as I have ever been. They are footy players and I am a leftist nerd, probably the less I know about them as humans, the better. But again whatever. Just don't do anything truly awful.

You hide it well mate.

[jeemak]

As a product, football is pretty ordinary right now.

Over officiated, rules that have taken out some of yesteryear's highlights (i.e. the bump) and the one thing nobody mentions - a SEVERELY diluted talent pool. An 18 team competition in this country is too much when it comes down to quality. The bottom 5-6 on each list, at a guess, have no business being on an AFL list to begin with (harsh, but wouldn't have got a shot 10+ years ago).

The talent pool comment is interesting, and I agree with you. I reckon it's exacerbated by the fact defencive structures are coached into the players within an inch of their lives, and even the best of players from the last decade or so would struggle to break them down by hand and foot.

[bornadog]

Footy peaked in 2016.

Our ‘men of mayhem’ run and gun handball style was tough yet exhilarating in full flight and was an antidote to the clinical but pretty boring short kicking game plan Hawthorn had perfected, third man up allowed around the ground ruck contests to clear more easily and stupid rules like 666, the man on the mark bullshit and ‘dissent’ 50s hadn’t yet polluted the game.

Also, the greatest ever game of Australian rules football was played that year (our prelim) and there’s a reason nothing has come close to it since.

That year will live in our memories forever, however, I am hungry for more premierships.

[Jeanette54]

That year will live in our memories forever, however, I am hungry for more premierships.

Then bring back Clay Smith, that man would get a kick even if he was on crutches. That big hit on Griff in the prelim was a thing of beauty, resulting in Daniel's goal. Any Team with Clay and Libba in it can never beaten.

[Jeanette54]

I referred to them as the most dishonest team I have seen play for the club in my decades of watching it.



Count yourself lucky that you aren't old enough to remember them playing when Royce Hart was coaching. That was the only time since 1959, that there was no reason to continue to follow them. For some reason, masochism perhaps, I still went every week at the time.

[bornadog]

Count yourself lucky that you aren't old enough to remember them playing when Royce Hart was coaching. That was the only time since 1959, that there was no reason to continue to follow them. For some reason, masochism perhaps, I still went every week at the time.
Same

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I don't EXACTLY know how to put my finger on it, but for some reason the 'dogs post 2017 have been really HARD to LOVE.

2016 we were easy to love. 2017 those players had some cash in the supporter love bank. But from 2018 onwards...

Don't get me wrong - there are players who I think are amazing (Bont), but apart from Libba, Naughts and Caleb, I really just don't "love 'em". I don't know why.

I mean, I loved Dunks but the whole Essendon thing has soured me on him.
I WANT to love Gardner because of his battler status but somehow I just don't.
Tim is just too pretty and is the antithesis of the Hudson style ruckman who I have always been drawn too.
Bailey S? Umm. I don't know...the Cotton On stuff? Really? I guess it could be those stupid ads for tradie underwear or whatever but I just wonder who is advising him and what REALLY matters to him? Is footy as important to him as it appeared it was pre- draft???
Bailey Dale frustrated me so much as a forward that I still can't QUITE get there.
Jacko sooks it up when things aren't going his way.
Bailey Williams was there for me but something isn't right with him since the mid-point of last year...
Alex Keath is great - but somehow seems 'un-bulldog-like' - and just like things being 'un-strayan' I can't even really define what it means.
Westy is nearly there for me but the whole stuff with his Dad in the media last year was off putting.
Cody will no doubt be there but he DOES throw his head back for free-kicks and that is frustrating ('cos he DOESN'T need to do it).

I could go through the team but I will stop there...I guess there have been some games - think the way we finished the regular season last year - where the team just seems to play without care. And whilst I KNOW back in the old days we were terrible on a regular basis I just seem to remember that when the great coaches of my life were in charge (Wallace, Eade) we simply took care of business when we needed too...I still remember a headline from the Herald Sun once upon a time that said "Dogs have TRUE GRIT - What about the Rest" from the Wallace era after we won a Friday nighter vs North in what was an incredibly tight season.

Friday night? I mean, I got it wrong...I actually said that the forwards wouldn't get us, but our inability to stop kicking it to Stewart would. So much for that. But I had NO expectation we would win and was 100% not surprised when Geelong came out and kicked 3x coast-to-coast goals. And on top of that, every AFLW player we have is leaving to go 'somewhere else' and it's just doing my head in. Sure, of the past 5x 100+ point victories in the AFL we have had 4x of them...but that just re-inforces my feelings that we are flat track bullies who run their hardest when the ball is 'bouncing their way'.

Is it just me? Man, I hope it is.
Hhhmmmmm.
MJP Remind me not to live with you, picky.
The vibe is not working for you.
Now is the winter of our discontent.
I get giraffe vibes from Tim. Potentially one of the greatest ever giraffes in AFL history, only needing to beat the out of control elephant at Arden St. He is Shultz like in appearence so I feel he is s special part of my Bulldogs.
Dunks has found love with GWS/The Filth / Bulldogs Treloar.
Love is part of Bulldogs. Keep them too although, must admit Dunks is not that endearing to me but what is important here?
I have no doubt MJP you can read a training room.
A few wins after the break may sooth your cynicism.