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GVGjr
04-07-2022, 12:04 PM
This from Fox Footy (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/western-bulldogs/afl-news-2022-western-bulldogs-loss-to-brisbane-lions-reactions-analysis-response-struggles-highlights-offseason-plans-trade-news/news-story/072891ff5496b9cef4a970881b1deb3b)

The Western Bulldogs have come under fire from Fox Footy’s First Crack team after the club’s 41-point loss to the Brisbane Lions, with its season suddenly on thin ice.

The Dogs have struggled to tie consistency together this year, holding an 8-7 record in a disappointing return after last year’s grand final appearance. They currently sit 10th on the ladder and a game outside the top eight ahead of a tough run home including clashes against Sydney, Melbourne, Geelong and Fremantle.

Luke Beveridge’s side conceded 120 marks against the Lions in Thursday night’s clash at the Gabba to continue a theme that’s plagued it in 2022. In games they’ve lost this year they’ve conceded nearly 107 marks — the second-worst mark in the competition.
Saints great Leigh Montagna believes the Dogs’ tactic of not guarding the mark can make it hard to force high balls to allow intercepts, saying “Brisbane was able to pick their way through them too easily.”

The Dogs’ intercept game has been a key concern this season, averaging 64 intercepts per game (ranked 17th in the competiti0n), down on the AFL average of 69.

“This is what frustrates me about the Dogs, they don’t win the ball back on intercepts,” Roos legend David King said.

“They don’t have a team defence in my opinion, and that’s why they only have North Melbourne behind them in terms of winning the ball back. They don’t win it back, let the opposition play — dangerous way to be.”

An area were the Bulldogs have been strong is their midfield and clearance game, led by a star-studded crop including Jack Macrae, Marcus Bontempelli, Tom Liberatore, Josh Dunkley, Adam Treloar and Bailey Smith. However it hasn’t necessarily stacked up against the best sides.

The Dogs have averaged 44.8 points from clearance against the rest of the competition (83%), but against four of the top five teams (Melbourne, Geelong, Brisbane and Carlton) they’ve managed just 28.8 points from clearance (71%).

King held concerns with where the Dogs’ game was at overall, putting a line through their campaign and saying the club needs to do some soul searching this off-season.

It comes with Dunkley and Smith both still uncontracted beyond this season, with the former’s future seemingly less certain, while the club is also looking to strengthen its key position stocks at either end of the ground, most recently linked to Fremantle’s Rory Lobb.

“I say they’ve got wholesale problems they need to address. They’re not rigid ahead of the footy and they’re not great behind it,” King said.

“They’re brilliant in the midfield, but not against the best. So what have you got? You’ve got a whole heap of nothing. You’ve got the game set up for some individuals, but not for the team.

“I think this is an off-season that needs to sit back and say, ‘who are we and where are we going?’ I don’t know if you can correct it in-season, I think this year is gone. They’ve got massive decisions to make this off-season.”

Montagna agreed that the Dogs need to build more layers to the way they play and not be so reliant on midfield dominance.

“We know it’s all built around their midfield, the contest and clearance. Outside of that — both offensively and defensively — they can get exploited. They are just a middle of the table team,” he said.

“They have streaks, they go through hot patches where they win a lot of games, but they also go through periods where they struggle.”

Grantysghost
04-07-2022, 12:41 PM
It's clear as day that tactic is rubbish to me. The Lions walked through our zone.

Sometimes I feel like Bevo spends too much time being angry at rule changes and attempting to subvert them.

As I said he was out on the ground prior to the Hawks game clearly talking about it with the umpires so it's not something he's going to let go quickly even though other coaches have already worked it out.

jeemak
04-07-2022, 12:47 PM
I've actually noticed other teams have adopted the tactic to push pack outside five over the last month or so.

azabob
04-07-2022, 12:51 PM
Thank you for posting GVGjr. I haven't had time to catch up with the show yet and will make a point of watching it.

A lot of what King and Montagna raise have been hotly debated on this forum.

David King doesn't miss; and honestly it is hard not disagree with what he is saying.

“I say they’ve got wholesale problems they need to address. They’re not rigid ahead of the footy and they’re not great behind it,” King said.

“They’re brilliant in the midfield, but not against the best. So what have you got? You’ve got a whole heap of nothing. You’ve got the game set up for some individuals, but not for the team.

“I think this is an off-season that needs to sit back and say, ‘who are we and where are we going?’ I don’t know if you can correct it in-season, I think this year is gone. They’ve got massive decisions to make this off-season.”

The Underdog
04-07-2022, 12:54 PM
It's clear as day that tactic is rubbish to me. The Lions walked through our zone.

Sometimes I feel like Bevo spends too much time being angry at rule changes and attempting to subvert them.

As I said he was out on the ground prior to the Hawks game clearly talking about it with the umpires so it's not something he's going to let go quickly even though other coaches have already worked it out.

I’m agnostic about the tactic. Think it’s probably reasonable in the forward half and drives me crazy anywhere within the last 80m of our defensive half. But is Montagna’s logic completely daft? How many high balls are being forced by a guy standing still on the mark?
Surely our bigger problem is that we allow intercepts and fast turnover that we don’t defend well when we’re really getting cut up.
I don’t disagree with most of the articles points though. It’s been pretty plain to most of us for a while.

GVGjr
04-07-2022, 12:59 PM
I’m agnostic about the tactic. Think it’s probably reasonable in the forward half and drives me crazy anywhere within the last 80m of our defensive half. But is Montagna’s logic completely daft? How many high balls are being forced by a guy standing still on the mark?
Surely our bigger problem is that we allow intercepts and fast turnover that we don’t defend well when we’re really getting cut up.
I don’t disagree with most of the articles points though. It’s been pretty plain to most of us for a while.

If you work on the logic that most player kick the ball 3mtrs back from the man on the mark and we zone off by 4 or 5mtrs we are consistently conceding a bit of ground. I haven't quite worked out if it's a good thing or a bit of nonsense but as you point out we have some other challenges at the moment.

Grantysghost
04-07-2022, 01:10 PM
If you work on the logic that most player kick the ball 3mtrs back from the man on the mark and we zone off by 4 or 5mtrs we are consistently conceding a bit of ground. I haven't quite worked out if it's a good thing or a bit of nonsense but as you point out we have some other challenges at the moment.

I used to hate the man on the mark pushing up and waving as a player.
Sometimes it affected my disposal. I would have loved it if they sat off five metres.
That implied pressure can't be underestimated imo.

Grantysghost
04-07-2022, 01:25 PM
I’m agnostic about the tactic. Think it’s probably reasonable in the forward half and drives me crazy anywhere within the last 80m of our defensive half. But is Montagna’s logic completely daft? How many high balls are being forced by a guy standing still on the mark?
Surely our bigger problem is that we allow intercepts and fast turnover that we don’t defend well when we’re really getting cut up.
I don’t disagree with most of the articles points though. It’s been pretty plain to most of us for a while.

Yes that makes sense to keep the press up high. Backwards of centre its crazy.

bornadog
04-07-2022, 01:35 PM
David King a few weeks ago said Naughton should go back. Now he is saying Bruce should go back when he returns.

Putting Naughton back will make us an even worse team.

We need to release Keath from one on ones and let him play his natural role as an interceptor and find a replacement to take on the big full forwards. We brought in TOB but he is not working out as a interceptor.

What is Gardners role? He is good at spoils but that is it.

Should Schache just go back and do the one on ones for the rest of the season?

Danjul
04-07-2022, 01:47 PM
I used to hate the man on the mark pushing up and waving as a player.
Sometimes it affected my disposal. I would have loved it if they sat off five metres.
That implied pressure can't be underestimated imo.
I don’t know if running back 5+ metres is significant but:

it adds distance to opposition kicks. They get 10% more distance per set kick. Less kicks for end-to-end.

Huge impact when in the corridor. The kick that used to be touched on the line now just clears the pack. Opposition teams have moved to the corridor more lately.

gives opponents better angles. This makes their play tighter and more difficult to defend.

makes opposition forward thrusts quicker. We waste time by walking back 5 metres and teammates get covered. Opposition get ball forward before our loose zone can reinforce each other defensively.

allows opposition kicks to be lower and thus quicker. That’s why we don’t see many chest marks in the forward line and have to rely excessively on Naughton. Opposition get better entries.

distracts umpires from looking at where the mark is, they focus on what the player is doing. Opposition players are regularly running over the mark and then freezing. Called back 1 in 4.

Personally, I am convinced that half the time our players run back closer to 10m.

To be fair, I don’t think we should be critical of the tactic until we have time to consider it more thoroughly.

bornadog
04-07-2022, 01:50 PM
I don’t know if running back 5+ metres is significant but:

it adds distance to opposition kicks. They get 10% more distance per set kick. Less kicks for end-to-end.

Huge impact when in the corridor. The kick that used to be touched on the line now just clears the pack. Opposition teams have moved to the corridor more lately.

gives opponents better angles. This makes their play tighter and more difficult to defend.

makes opposition forward thrusts quicker. We waste time by walking back 5 metres and teammates get covered. Opposition get ball forward before our loose zone can reinforce each other defensively.

allows opposition kicks to be lower and thus quicker. That’s why we don’t see many chest marks in the forward line and have to rely excessively on Naughton. Opposition get better entries.

distracts umpires from looking at where the mark is, they focus on what the player is doing. Opposition players are regularly running over the mark and then freezing. Called back 1 in 4.

Personally, I am convinced that half the time our players run back closer to 10m.

To be fair, I don’t think we should be critical of the tactic until we have time to consider it more thoroughly.

The stand rule is the most pathetic rule introduced in the history of Australian Rules.

May as well not have a man on the mark, because the bloke with the free kick just waltzes past you anyhow and you can't tackle them, and they gain 5 m anyway, if not more

Grantysghost
04-07-2022, 02:09 PM
The stand rule is the most pathetic rule introduced in the history of Australian Rules.

May as well not have a man on the mark, because the bloke with the free kick just waltzes past you anyhow and you can't tackle them, and they gain 5 m anyway, if not more

That's the reason for the tactic and I agree it's the worst rule ever!

On danjul's last point re considering it more I agree. I need to watch closely at a game (on the rare occasion we get a game at Marvel) and see what the domino effect is for the other members of the zone.
I assume it allows another player to be more flexible.
The Lions really exploited the tactic last week. Hopefully we have some fine tuning we can do to stop that easy ball.

Bulldog Joe
04-07-2022, 02:09 PM
Highlights that the big problem we have is game plan which is on the coach.

He is not ever likely to concede that he may be slightly in error until the last roll of the dice.

We are nearly at that point.