Heat on Bevo?

[GVGjr]

Sam Lansberger from the HUN

HEAT ON BEVO? (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/news/early-tackle-sam-landsbergers-likes-and-dislikes-from-round-17/news-story/f4f10b89e26806197fa3cf4c7befb767)

The likely changes from last year’s top eight are — IN: Fremantle, Carlton, Collingwood, Richmond; OUT: Western Bulldogs, Port Adelaide, GWS and Essendon. Giants coach Leon Cameron is gone while Ken Hinkley (Power) and Ben Rutten (Bombers) have faced scrutiny all season. So where does that leave Bevo and football boss Chris Grant? Unlike those other coaches, Beveridge has a premiership. But while the 2017 freefall was forgiven by supporters who had waited a lifetime for 2016, impatience has returned. The Dogs — 19 points up in the third quarter of last year’s grand final – are an average side who had the makings of an extraordinary list. Luke Hodge described Beveridge as a “broken man” at the post-game press conference where the coach questioned his club’s drop in preparation. Was that a whack at the professionalism of the players? The fitness department? Or is there a disconnect with the coach? Consecutive losses totalling 94 points is the club’s worst two-week patch since 2018. Beveridge said last week the alarm bells weren’t yet ringing. But the language on Friday started to shift to being encouraged by where this team can eventually get to. Sharp improvements from Tim English, Ed Richards and Rhylee West standout as the positives and Sam Darcy might join that conversation this month. After their worst six-and-a-half quarters for the season it is appropriate to start thinking about 2023 because this won’t be their year.

Also

BULLDOG BACKLINE

Two questions came to mind watching forward Mitch Hannan line up as an intercepting defender after three months out with concussion and a couple of quarters in the VFL backline. 1) How badly did the Dogs want to drop Tim O’Brien? 2) Have they moved on from premiership player Zaine Cordy? Footage of Hannan not watching Isaac Heeney at a centre bounce — costing the easiest of goals — was damning, perhaps more so for the coaches than Hannan, given his lack of craft and defensive mindset could’ve been anticipated. What was O’Brien thinking, having crossed as a free agent to play that role? Adam Treloar was also surprisingly deployed in defence as the Dogs conceded 100 points for the third time in four games. The midfield didn’t help on Friday night, and looked slow with Bailey Smith, but the brittle backline is statistically easy to beat one-on-one and easy to transition against. Sydney had 35 scoring shots – eight more than North Melbourne had been giving up on average.

[Grantysghost]

I thought the same, what must O'Brien be thinking and what did he do wrong against the Lions to condemn him to the seconds for an average forward who is returning from a massive lay off.
It beggars belief but we all knew it was coming.

Buckleup Buckeroos it's Bevo's selection lotto!

[comrade]

I thought the same, what must O'Brien be thinking and what did he do wrong against the Lions to condemn him to the seconds for an average forward who is returning from a massive lay off.
It beggars belief but we all knew it was coming.

Buckleup Buckeroos it's Bevo's selection lotto!

I’d love to get an explanation why Hannan was selected in an unfamiliar role in such an important game. Obviously the coaching staff had a plan and put thought into it but from the outside it defies logic and seemed destined to fail. What do they see & understand that we don’t? Will never happen but would be great to know.

[azabob]

This has been mentioned in other threads but what was very clear when the camera would zoom in on our coaches box on Friday night highlighted just how inexperienced our assistant coaches are.

I truly hope Beveridge and the footy department recognise this and spend the money required to get some AFL experience in the box.

[bornadog]

This has been mentioned in other threads but what was very clear when the camera would zoom in on our coaches box on Friday night highlighted just how inexperienced our assistant coaches are.

I truly hope Beveridge and the footy department recognise this and spend the money required to get some AFL experience in the box.

There was only one assistant with no experience.

[Grantysghost]

There was only one assistant with no experience.
Webb was Lyon's man at Freo wasn't he.

[bornadog]

Webb was Lyon's man at Freo wasn't he.

From Wiki


Coaching career

In 2011 he entered coaching, serving as an assistant coach at Subiaco. He was appointed head coach of Claremont before the 2012 WAFL season and led the Tigers to a premiership in his first year.[4] In October 2013 he joined Fremantle in the Australian Football League as a development coach.[5] In 2016 he was appointed as midfield coach.[6] In 2021 he joined the coaching staff of the Western Bulldogs as midfield coach.[7]

[azabob]

There was only one assistant with no experience.

Do you truly believe we have an experienced coaching group?

[bornadog]

Do you truly believe we have an experienced coaching group?

They are experienced, but maybe not all the right group.? As I said in another thread, love Leon to come back.

I heard the same arguments on WOOF a few years ago. People had a go that no one was challenging Bevo, blah blah blah, yet we find out when they are leaving that guys like King and Hansen continually challenged him, and now people are lamenting their loss.

Yes, they are experienced except Spangher.

[Happy Days]

I think they deserve some slack for essentially getting deserted by two long term senior assistants very late in the piece (in what was honestly pretty poor stuff from Hansen in particular).

But running back the exact same game plan with no real personnel improvements was a really lazy and arrogant choice after our faults were so plainly laid bare in the GF. So yeah, some heat for sure.

[Sedat]

I’d love to get an explanation why Hannan was selected in an unfamiliar role in such an important game. Obviously the coaching staff had a plan and put thought into it but from the outside it defies logic and seemed destined to fail. What do they see & understand that we don’t? Will never happen but would be great to know.
Bevo reminds me of Plough circa 1999-2002. He seems to preference left-field selections and match-ups over a rigid but reliable system, and he relies on the overall talent at his disposal to overcome any game plan weaknesses and holes in specific parts of the ground. Plough did it with his small forwards being rotated out of the goal square to try and get a mismatch (eg: Johnno, Eagleton, Garlick, Brown all kicked big bags when isolated one-out). It would work on occasions but it was never consistent and would invariably fail when it mattered.

I think Bevo would benefit enormously from having a strong tactical 2IC on his coaching panel. He is brilliant at the cultural and motivational aspects but I feel like there are other senior coaches who currently have his measure on the tactical/chess piece aspects in game.

[ReLoad]

Interestingly I heard KWW is down to the last 3 in taking over from Gil.

[DOG GOD]

Interestingly I heard KWW is down to the last 3 in taking over from Gil.

Is KWW even a real person? I’m not so sure ;)

[Sedat]

Interestingly I heard KWW is down to the last 3 in taking over from Gil.
Not surprising in the slightest. Disney shares many similarities with AFL HQ culturally - overwhelmingly dominant in their respective fields, gratuitously inflated sense of self-importance (they are both entertainment organisations and nothing more), bloated and inefficient corporrate structures, barely concerned with the day-to-day core business and unhealthily obsessed with/beholden to big picture/off-field brand protection and PR.

KW-W's globalist corporate background would fit in at City Hall like a hand in glove, just like a Richard Goyder is. She is actually a much better fit for the AFL than she is for a tribal, passionate footy club. Being president of the Bulldogs feels beneath her, judging by her complete and utter invisibility and lack of engagement in the role over a 2 year sample size.

[MrMahatma]

In his presser after Sydney without saying it, he strongly hinted that our preparation this season hasn't been good. This isn't 100% word for word... just me quickly typing as listening.

"you look at it as what's gone wrong, hurdles in the way that each team faces, or look at it that other teams have improved... I won't make excuses... there's some relativity around it. The margins are small, close wins, beat the top teams... it takes an enormous amount of conviction, enormous amount of preparation, enormous amount of sophistication with what you do. I still think the sophistication is there but whether it's the preparation or the capacity to do it is just not there at the moment. There's a number of factors, but ultimately the competition at the pointy end of the competition has gone past us. We're going through some change. Going through some evolution in the back end. We need to challenge ourselves to get the best template.

The now is absolutely important for us but the future is critical to lay some foundations to set ourselves up for what happens in the future. Part of that will ensue in the coming weeks, and we'll obviously still endeavour to beat those in front of us".

So he thinks the sophistication is there - IE: The coaching? The plan? The skills of the team?
The preparation and the conviction maybe not? Some people not giving 100% any more? Is preparation coaching? Individuals? Overall fitness program?

And the last bit more or less calls out that we're going to turn an eye to next year. He can't say "we don't care about winning" but he was pretty clear that we're looking to the future. You'd expect a few changes this week, and surely one of those is Darcy if he's physically up to it.

[GVGjr]

In his presser after Sydney without saying it, he strongly hinted that our preparation this season hasn't been good. This isn't 100% word for word... just me quickly typing as listening.

"you look at it as what's gone wrong, hurdles in the way that each team faces, or look at it that other teams have improved... I won't make excuses... there's some relativity around it. The margins are small, close wins, beat the top teams... it takes an enormous amount of conviction, enormous amount of preparation, enormous amount of sophistication with what you do. I still think the sophistication is there but whether it's the preparation or the capacity to do it is just not there at the moment. There's a number of factors, but ultimately the competition at the pointy end of the competition has gone past us. We're going through some change. Going through some evolution in the back end. We need to challenge ourselves to get the best template.

The now is absolutely important for us but the future is critical to lay some foundations to set ourselves up for what happens in the future. Part of that will ensue in the coming weeks, and we'll obviously still endeavour to beat those in front of us".

So he thinks the sophistication is there - IE: The coaching? The plan? The skills of the team?
The preparation and the conviction maybe not? Some people not giving 100% any more? Is preparation coaching? Individuals? Overall fitness program?

And the last bit more or less calls out that we're going to turn an eye to next year. He can't say "we don't care about winning" but he was pretty clear that we're looking to the future. You'd expect a few changes this week, and surely one of those is Darcy if he's physically up to it.

Thanks for that, I'm a Bevo fan and while in many aspects he deserves to have some extra pressure applied to him by the media the observation I have is that why is there a sharp decline in the teams performance after what we would deem as highly successful seasons in 2016 and 2021?

Injuries happen and the area's that have been identified and even acknowledged are the same area's that we had at the end of last season. We've gone on record that we are interested in talking to Rory Lobb, although I'm not convinced yet that we are genuinely in the hunt for him, and the media seems to believe we have the feelers out for a key defender be that Logue or Jones I really don't know.
I do think the problems run a bit deeper than two key positions.

The quality of our list is still pretty strong but I doubt we are fighting as hard on match day as we should be.

Bevo got off to a rocky start this year and was failing in his presentations to the media and fans but to his full credit I think he's been brilliantly strong and honest in the last few weeks when the pressure has been right on him. The sign of a man who's committed.
Is his message getting across to the players as strongly as it should be? I really don't know but I think he's a very good coach and an easy one for he players to get right behind.

[azabob]

So.. is Beveridge in excuse mode or fix our problem mode to bounce back in 2023?

What I'm interpreting is another dip for a year or two (ala 2017/18) which quite frankly is unacceptable.

[bornadog]

So.. is Beveridge in excuse mode or fix our problem mode to bounce back in 2023?

What I'm interpreting is another dip for a year or to (ala 2017/18) which quite frankly is unacceptable.

Very different to 2017/18 which was a mini rebuild, and is not what is required.

We are missing some quality in the backline and backup ruck.

[DOG GOD]

So.. is Beveridge in excuse mode or fix our problem mode to bounce back in 2023?

What I'm interpreting is another dip for a year or to (ala 2017/18) which quite frankly is unacceptable.

To be honest, I’m not expecting much change from what we see now til the start of next year.
I’ll be surprised if there’s even a review.
We might land Lobb thru desperation but I don’t see much else list wise.
And I’m expecting next year to be just as mediocre as this one.

[Danjul]

Very different to 2017/18 which was a mini rebuild, and is not what is required.

We are missing some quality in the backline and backup ruck.
The backline is being carved up by fast, quality deliveries because of not playing man on man or standing the mark. No one can hold that tide back.

15 scoring shots against us in the first quarter and nothing done to change things.

Nothing could be done because we play the game one way and it will always succeed.

No need for plan B, like when English comes back from concussion and might need some support. (Where did Sydney get that superstar ruckman from anyway?)

[Bullies]

To be honest, I’m not expecting much change from what we see now til the start of next year.
I’ll be surprised if there’s even a review.
We might land Lobb thru desperation but I don’t see much else list wise.
And I’m expecting next year to be just as mediocre as this one. From hearing that presser he sounded quite down but quite confident if the changes can be made it can turnaround long term. I wouldn't be surprised if they go hard at the list and if there are buyers for some players and the deal is right then I can see a bit of turnover. It wouldn't surprise if JJ, Hunter, Schache and a few others find new homes. I don't think Dunks will be there and i think they will use his currency to get a "needs" player. We really need to cut those at the bottom of the list - R Smith, McComb and a few of the list cloggers. We lack depth - our bottom 6 in the 1's are dreadful and in 2016 they helped win us the flag. Bevo also has to be accountable he is responsible for bringing in guys and playing them in or out of position. As i said previously they need a Leon Cameron to help Bevo and a David Noble - Football Manager.

[mjp]

I don't think Dunks will be there and i think they will use his currency to get a "needs" player.

I keep reading this but what currency does Dunks have?

He's an out of contract, 4-5th midfielder at a middle of the road team.

He's a 3rd round pick. Maybe 2nd. If you think we get more, well, I'd love to understand why? Essendon offered more last time but they needed to extract a contracted player then...no longer!

[GVGjr]

So.. is Beveridge in excuse mode or fix our problem mode to bounce back in 2023?

What I'm interpreting is another dip for a year or to (ala 2017/18) which quite frankly is unacceptable.

Not at all, there might be some contributing factors but excuses are just that.

[GVGjr]

I keep reading this but what currency does Dunks have?

He's an out of contract, 4-5th midfielder at a middle of the road team.

He's a 3rd round pick. Maybe 2nd. If you think we get more, well, I'd love to understand why? Essendon offered more last time but they needed to extract a contracted player then...no longer!

Essentially he's a highly sort after midfielder and he would be worth vastly more than that in a team that needs a bigger stronger midfielder.
If the rumours (just that) are true of an interest in him going to SA for a team like Adelaide he would balance things out nicely with Laird and really give their midfield a stronger presence.

For the right team he's worth a 1st round pick or 2 x 2nd round picks.

[Grantysghost]

Essentially he's a highly sort after midfielder and he would be worth vastly more than that in a team that needs a bigger stronger midfielder.
If the rumours (just that) are true of an interest in him going to SA for a team like Adelaide he would balance things out nicely with Laird and really give their midfield a stronger presence.

For the right team he's worth a 1st round pick or 2 x 2nd round picks.

Statistically he's having one of his best years. Better than 2020 I think when he was out the door.

I'd say a first round pick 10-18 would have to be involved. But he could walk to the draft.

[azabob]

Statistically he's having one of his best years. Better than 2020 I think when he was out the door.

I'd say a first round pick 10-18 would have to be involved. But he could walk to the draft.

You think North would take him regardless if that was the case?

[Grantysghost]

You think North would take him regardless if that was the case?

He'd be a good mentor for some of their young mids.

[bornadog]

You think North would take him regardless if that was the case?


He'd be a good mentor for some of their young mids.

Why would he go to a team like North?

[DOG GOD]

Why would he go to a team like North?
$$$$$$$$$$

[bornadog]

$$$$$$$$$$

I am expecting him to sign a new contract

[DOG GOD]

I am expecting him to sign a new contract

Bornadog, what would you expect that contract to be ? He could get around 800k at north.

[GVGjr]

Why would he go to a team like North?

I think it's more about if a suitable deal can't be done for his services the option is North could pick him up in the pre-season draft.

[bornadog]

Bornadog, what would you expect that contract to be ? He could get around 800k at north.

I wouldn't have a clue. You may have noticed I rarely comment on what players are earning, and frankly don't care.

It is easy to say I will go for the money, but if you hate your job, you won't last. North would be a knight mare to go to when he is in a team that has a chance of playing finals the next few years. He is still only 25, and if he is earning say $600k at the dogs, and enjoys the environment, then better off to stay. The difference is minimal when tax is taken out (minimal compared to overall earning), plus he has his Bro at the Dogs. :D

However, if say a Melbourne, or Carlton or other contender, offered him that he may consider it, depending on how happy he is with his team mates and the club in general.

So, it is not just money

[Grantysghost]

I wouldn't have a clue. You may have noticed I rarely comment on what players are earning, and frankly don't care.

It is easy to say I will go for the money, but if you hate your job, you won't last. North would be a knight mare to go to when he is in a team that has a chance of playing finals the next few years. He is still only 25, and if he is earning say $600k at the dogs, and enjoys the environment, then better off to stay. The difference is minimal when tax is taken out (minimal compared to overall earning), plus he has his Bro at the Dogs. :D

However, if say a Melbourne, or Carlton or other contender, offered him that he may consider it, depending on how happy he is with his team mates and the club in general.

So, it is not just money

From what I've ascertained with his off-field work he is a pretty astute promoter of "Brand Dunkley".

His insta feed is full of promotions for products (much more than other players), he has the podcast with Treloar, usually has a regular article on ESPN.

No problem with that, these guys have limited careers need to get what they can while they can.

The North question therefore is interesting. How good would that be for his brand despite the cash on offer?

I think I'm with BAD in the sense that I expect if he's not with us it was because one of the big clubs that can lift his earning potential off-field came calling.

[azabob]

Statistically he's having one of his best years. Better than 2020 I think when he was out the door.

I'd say a first round pick 10-18 would have to be involved. But he could walk to the draft.


Why would he go to a team like North?

Who said Dunkley was going to North?

GG said he could walk to the draft so I replied North would take him before anyone.

[azabob]

Interesting points from David King from his segment on SEN in response to our performance so far and Beveridge after match presser against Sydney.

A 3 minute snapshot on what he is seeing from the outside in.

*Lost assistants coaches in King and Hansen who knew the game plan inside out (Jee has pointed this out) and the replacements may be taking a while to get up too speed and the players to trust the assistants.

*The game is won on turnover and if you cannot create turnover you cannot beat the best teams.

Last 6 weeks we have been poor at the intercept game.
*13th most midfield intercepts (our midfield cannot win the ball back),
*17th overall for intercepts,
*Defensive inside 50 is the worst in the comp.

Basically we can't stop the ball between the 50m arcs and once the ball gets through the opposition score.

*Our salary cap is heavily geared towards the midfield. We should be capitalising on this, but we are ranked 4th on clearance and 9th ranked at contest.

*Dogs have lost their strength in the midfield and after that there is nothing else.

*If you don't win intercepts; you don't win games.

We haven't invested at CHB to be that interceptor. Again raises Naughton. He has had a great season kicking 40 goals; but King does wonder how many goals Naughton could've saved and or set up by being our CHB interceptor.

*How does Rory Lobb help our intercept game?

*Interestingly King noted: Hansen to Carlton, King to GCS, Corey to Freo all clubs going ok...

[Grantysghost]

Interesting points from David King from his segment on SEN in response to our performance so far and Beveridge after match presser against Sydney.

A 3 minute snapshot on what he is seeing from the outside in.

*Lost assistants coaches in King and Hansen who knew the game plan inside out (Jee has pointed this out) and the replacements may be taking a while to get up too speed and the players to trust the assistants.

*The game is won on turnover and if you cannot create turnover you cannot beat the best teams.

Last 6 weeks we have been poor at the intercept game.
*13th most midfield intercepts (our midfield cannot win the ball back),
*17th overall for intercepts,
*Defensive inside 50 is the worst in the comp.

Basically we can't stop the ball between the 50m arcs and once the ball gets through the opposition score.

*Our salary cap is heavily geared towards the midfield. We should be capitalising on this, but we are ranked 4th on clearance and 9th ranked at contest.

*Dogs have lost their strength in the midfield and after that there is nothing else.

*If you don't win intercepts; you don't win games.

We haven't invested at CHB to be that interceptor. Again raises Naughton. He has had a great season kicking 40 goals; but King does wonder how many goals Naughton could've saved and or set up by being our CHB interceptor.

*How does Rory Lobb help our intercept game?

*Interestingly King noted: Hansen to Carlton, King to GCS, Corey to Freo all clubs going ok...

They chip it through and we run away from them.

[bornadog]

. Again raises Naughton. He has had a great season kicking 40 goals; but King does wonder how many goals Naughton could've saved and or set up by being our CHB interceptor.

.

I am sick of reading this from media including Socials.

Naughton a once in a generation FF - they are like GOLD.

Who replaces the 50 goals he will kick this year? It has been hard to replace Bruce with his 48 last year.

[azabob]

I am sick of reading this from media including Socials.

Naughton a once in a generation FF - they are like GOLD.

Who replaces the 50 goals he will kick this year? It has been hard to replace Bruce with his 48 last year.

Not saying I agree with putting Naughton back but in answer to your question Tim English might go close if he played forward 80% of the time.

[Bulldog4life]

Not saying I agree with putting Naughton back but in answer to your question Tim English might go close if he played forward 80% of the time.

But who would replace his around the ground mid field work? Certainly not Sweetie pie. I'd rather Tim be a ruck rover compared to 80% in the forward line Bob.

[Boots]

*Interestingly King noted: Hansen to Carlton, King to GCS, Corey to Freo all clubs going ok...

This feels pretty important (even if the sample size is small)

[azabob]

But who would replace his around the ground mid field work? Certainly not Sweetie pie. I'd rather Tim be a ruck rover compared to 80% in the forward line Bob.

B4L, I think our midfielders have shown they can get enough football.

Genuine question; would you play Scott Wynd or Tim English as our first ruck in 2022?

[bornadog]

Tim English might go close if he played forward 80% of the time.

Unknown.

Based on last years small sample, he only kicked 2 goals after the Essendon match. Bevo asked him to play forward when Bruce went down, and Young to ruck. In the last 6 games of the season he kicked 2 goals.

Naughton is a FF
English a Mobile ruck

BTW:, I wasn't having a go at you, rather the media and actually many supporters on socials

[Mantis]

I am sick of reading this from media including Socials.

Naughton a once in a generation FF - they are like GOLD.

Who replaces the 50 goals he will kick this year? It has been hard to replace Bruce with his 48 last year.

So your opinion is the only one that we should listen to?

Naughton is a very good forward… it’s yet TBD if he will be a generational forward, but unless he improves his ability to convert he’s going to be an unfulfilled talent.

[jeemak]

Has anyone seen an article where the players are copping heat/ pressure yet?

Or is the game too nuanced now for even ex-footballers who recently retired to know that defending/ squeezing between the arcs is pretty much what every single team does/ needs to do, and it's the players who either don't or do execute the same plan most teams take into a game to do so?

And the stand vs. five debate is giving me the shits. Our under-sized/ under-skilled defence would be absolutely baked if players were allowed to waltz around the standing mark quickly.

[GVGjr]

Has anyone seen an article where the players are copping heat/ pressure yet?

Or is the game too nuanced now for even ex-footballers who recently retired to know that defending/ squeezing between the arcs is pretty much what every single team does/ needs to do, and it's the players who either don't or do execute the same plan most teams take into a game to do so?

And the stand vs. five debate is giving me the shits. Our under-sized/ under-skilled defence would be absolutely baked if players were allowed to waltz around the standing mark quickly.

I haven't seen much really singling out the players. A few scattered pieces. Most of the comments are about the about getting a key defender and how well Lobb might fit in.

[azabob]

Has anyone seen an article where the players are copping heat/ pressure yet?

Or is the game too nuanced now for even ex-footballers who recently retired to know that defending/ squeezing between the arcs is pretty much what every single team does/ needs to do, and it's the players who either don't or do execute the same plan most teams take into a game to do so?

And the stand vs. five debate is giving me the shits. Our under-sized/ under-skilled defence would be absolutely baked if players were allowed to waltz around the standing mark quickly.

HB Meyers from the Mongrel Punt put together a piece focusing on English and how he isn’t up to being a ruck and how Beveridge is letting the team down by sticking with only one ruckman. I don’t know man, it’s acknowledged we are not good enough as a team but I guess Bevo is the head honcho and it easier to question him, the decision making and strategy?

[Grantysghost]

Has anyone seen an article where the players are copping heat/ pressure yet?

Or is the game too nuanced now for even ex-footballers who recently retired to know that defending/ squeezing between the arcs is pretty much what every single team does/ needs to do, and it's the players who either don't or do execute the same plan most teams take into a game to do so?

And the stand vs. five debate is giving me the shits. Our under-sized/ under-skilled defence would be absolutely baked if players were allowed to waltz around the standing mark quickly.

Mitch Hannan copped it for being a crap defender.

[Danjul]

I haven't seen much really singling out the players. A few scattered pieces. Most of the comments are about the about getting a key defender and how well Lobb might fit in.

This is the team that won three finals on the road last year. Except Richards has improved, Gardner has improved. English has improved. (Read it here)

I can see that JUH has improved. Naughton’s goal kicking has improved. I think even Schache has improved.

So what is different that could explain the drop in success apart from Young leaving?

I have my suspicions, and they don’t include a player rebellion where they are all refusing to play the game as instructed.

What is the new thing that the players are not coping with?

[DOG GOD]

This is the team that won three finals on the road last year. Except Richards has improved, Gardner has improved. English has improved. (Read it here)

I can see that JUH has improved. Naughton’s goal kicking has improved. I think even Schache has improved.

So what is different that could explain the drop in success apart from Young leaving?

I have my suspicions, and they don’t include a player rebellion where they are all refusing to play the game as instructed.

What is the new thing that the players are not coping with?

What’s your suspicions Danjul ?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Interesting that our “old guard” moved across to Freo and look at the way they are performing. We had it all in 2016. The only thing he were looking for was maturity of the playing group and Bevos ego in check

[Grantysghost]

Some interesting stats from Bigfooty.

(credit user Oliver Gigacz)

https://i.postimg.cc/4xT8cdz8/Screenshot-20220711-221532-Chrome.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xctyD9pH)

https://i.postimg.cc/pdWq06cz/Screenshot-20220711-221547-Chrome.jpg (https://postimg.cc/BjzTbM0n)

https://i.postimg.cc/SQJtFHSG/Screenshot-20220711-221605-Chrome.jpg (https://postimg.cc/mhWS7XFc)

https://i.postimg.cc/XqCr4shv/Screenshot-20220711-221618-Chrome.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Grantysghost]

Amazing really. Don't think the walking back off the mark has alot to do with those stats.

Gardner is 3rd in the comp for spoils too.....

[MrMahatma]

On 360 Slobbo said the Hun is doing a piece on the dogs tomorrow and when asked to speak to Grant or Baines, it was declined.

I guess that’s one way to allow speculation to grow…

[Grantysghost]

On 360 Slobbo said the Hun is doing a piece on the dogs tomorrow and when asked to speak to Grant or Baines, it was declined.

I guess that’s one way to allow speculation to grow…

We really don't like doing media.

[GVGjr]

On 360 Slobbo said the Hun is doing a piece on the dogs tomorrow and when asked to speak to Grant or Baines, it was declined.

I guess that’s one way to allow speculation to grow…

A missed opportunity. It shouldn't be just on Bevo to respond to media and both Grant and Bains need to take a turn or two at the wheel.

[bornadog]

So your opinion is the only one that we should listen to?.

Why would you write this?

I am only talking about myself and what I like and don't like.

[GVGjr]

Does anyone really think the heat has been on Bevo? I think it's coming if we don't win this week but it's been reasonable so far.

[bornadog]

This is the team that won three finals on the road last year. Except Richards has improved, Gardner has improved. English has improved. (Read it here)

I can see that JUH has improved. Naughton’s goal kicking has improved. I think even Schache has improved.

So what is different that could explain the drop in success apart from Young leaving?

I have my suspicions, and they don’t include a player rebellion where they are all refusing to play the game as instructed.

What is the new thing that the players are not coping with?

I think our bottom 6 are not contributing enough and supporting the rest of the team. Too much is left to a few. That is the difference from last year.

[GVGjr]

I think our bottom 6 are not contributing enough and supporting the rest of the team. Too much is left to a few. That is the difference from last year.

We've thinned the depth of the talent pool though and we need our better players to perform with more consistency so they drag the others along.
When you consider there has been improvement with some of the younger players of the likes of West, Richards and Weightman and some sensational form from Liberatore, B.Smith, Dale and English it opens up questions on why this has occurred.

[jeemak]

We've thinned the depth of the talent pool though and we need our better players to perform with more consistency so they drag the others along.
When you consider there has been improvement with some of the younger players of the likes of West, Richards and Weightman and some sensational form from Liberatore, B.Smith, Dale and English it opens up questions on why this has occurred.

Smith and English have played ten and nine games respectively this year, out of sixteen.

Hunter has played seven, JJ has played four, Duryea eleven and Keath eleven. While I don't think our depth players have been where they need to be, our middle tier players have struggled for continuity as well.

That's six top to mid-tier players who out of a possible 96 games have missed 44 games (46%), which is quite a lot.

As for the depth itself, Hannan's only played four, Garcia three, and Vandermeer six. I would say it's these three who West has stood in for mostly, and he's done a great job in doing so. I agree the rest of the depth players have been patchy at best.

The overall continuity of our playing list has been terrible, outside of a handful of our better players who have been consistently available all year.

[Grantysghost]

Smith and English have played ten and nine games respectively this year, out of sixteen.

Hunter has played seven, JJ has played four, Duryea eleven and Keath eleven. While I don't think our depth players have been where they need to be, our middle tier players have struggled for continuity as well.

That's six top to mid-tier players who out of a possible 96 games have missed 44 games (46%), which is quite a lot.

As for the depth itself, Hannan's only played four, Garcia three, and Vandermeer six. I would say it's these three who West has stood in for mostly, and he's done a great job in doing so. I agree the rest of the depth players have been patchy at best.

The overall continuity of our playing list has been terrible, outside of a handful of our better players who have been consistently available all year.

I feel like you could've written this for most seasons post 2015 Jee.
Even 16 we had loads of injuries.

I personally think that's high on the agenda for review. Keath and English were injured at training, JJ in a warm up, Bruce had a set back after returning (too early?).

I have no idea why, or even if it's bad but needs a review at the very least.

[Bulldog4life]

B4L, I think our midfielders have shown they can get enough football.

Genuine question; would you play Scott Wynd or Tim English as our first ruck in 2022?

John Schultz.

[azabob]

John Schultz.

Touché!

[Bullies]

David Noble gone from North - best football manager in the business. Club surely must make a play for him as well as Leon Cameron to help out Bevo.

[comrade]

David Noble gone from North - best football manager in the business. Club surely must make a play for him as well as Leon Cameron to help out Bevo.

Good suggestion. If there’s a bloke that would empathise with Bevo and the relentless pressure of coaching, it would be Noble.

[Vred]

+1 for Noble and Cameron, both I'd highly welcome into whatever roles we could put them in.

[DOG GOD]

Let’s not forget that Bont has had a shocker of a year compared to last year. Looks like he’s been carrying an injury of some sort all season. Libba obviously better, but Bont M.I.A, smith out and in a different headspace, Hunter missing huge chunk of season and injuries to JJ etc .

Williams in career bad form. Keath nowhere near 2021. Daniel down on form or injured.

While some have improved since last year, a lot have gone backwards and for this reason we are where we are. Other teams have worked us out and as most have said, we have no plan B.

[azabob]

Let’s not forget that Bont has had a shocker of a year compared to last year. Looks like he’s been carrying an injury of some sort all season. Libba obviously better, but Bont M.I.A, smith out and in a different headspace, Hunter missing huge chunk of season and injuries to JJ etc .

Williams in career bad form. Keath nowhere near 2021. Daniel down on form or injured.

While some have improved since last year, a lot have gone backwards and for this reason we are where we are. Other teams have worked us out and as most have said, we have no plan B.

Or Williams back to "his level". I can't see Keath getting back to pre round 19 2021 heights.

[DOG GOD]

Or Williams back to "his level". I can't see Keath getting back to pre round 19 2021 heights.

I agree. Keath looks tired and old out there with a battered body. He was brought over as an interceptor and made to play FB on the gorillas. That’s probably taken 2 years off him. God I can even fathom what a mess our backline would be in if Daniel and Dale missed a whole year.

[azabob]

I agree. Keath looks tired and old out there with a battered body. He was brought over as an interceptor and made to play FB on the gorillas. That’s probably taken 2 years off him. God I can even fathom what a mess our backline would be in if Daniel and Dale missed a whole year.

There would be no run or creativity whatso ever.

[Boots]

The 1:1 loss stat (won’t copy the whole set of images to save your scroll wheels) is deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. It’s a key requirement of the game (even if it’s a hard skill to master).

[Bullies]

The 1:1 loss stat (won’t copy the whole set of images to save your scroll wheels) is deplorable. Absolutely deplorable. It’s a key requirement of the game (even if it’s a hard skill to master). It also makes it even more bewildering as to why they played Treloar down back who does not have a defensive bone in his body. Throw in Hannan first game down back and that is a recipe for disaster and we copped our whack.

[Mofra]

It also makes it even more bewildering as to why they played Treloar down back who does not have a defensive bone in his body. Throw in Hannan first game down back and that is a recipe for disaster and we copped our whack.
I'm a little surprised that we didn't swap Hannan and Marra at 3/4 time, even if just for Marra's experience. What a chance to spend a little bit of time rotating into Buddy and maybe learn a thing or two. The game was dusted anyway

[FrediKanoute]

+1 for Noble and Cameron, both I'd highly welcome into whatever roles we could put them in.

No chance either getting a gig. Bevo would never countenance two ex-senior coaches being dropped into the box with him to "review" what he is doing. You can't have 2 alpha's, let alone 3.

[boydogs]

In his presser after Sydney without saying it, he strongly hinted that our preparation this season hasn't been good. This isn't 100% word for word... just me quickly typing as listening.

"you look at it as what's gone wrong, hurdles in the way that each team faces, or look at it that other teams have improved... I won't make excuses... there's some relativity around it. The margins are small, close wins, beat the top teams... it takes an enormous amount of conviction, enormous amount of preparation, enormous amount of sophistication with what you do. I still think the sophistication is there but whether it's the preparation or the capacity to do it is just not there at the moment. There's a number of factors, but ultimately the competition at the pointy end of the competition has gone past us. We're going through some change. Going through some evolution in the back end. We need to challenge ourselves to get the best template.

The now is absolutely important for us but the future is critical to lay some foundations to set ourselves up for what happens in the future. Part of that will ensue in the coming weeks, and we'll obviously still endeavour to beat those in front of us".

So he thinks the sophistication is there - IE: The coaching? The plan? The skills of the team?
The preparation and the conviction maybe not? Some people not giving 100% any more? Is preparation coaching? Individuals? Overall fitness program?

And the last bit more or less calls out that we're going to turn an eye to next year. He can't say "we don't care about winning" but he was pretty clear that we're looking to the future. You'd expect a few changes this week, and surely one of those is Darcy if he's physically up to it.

Honestly 99% of posts on Woof are more coherent than that rant from Bevo

[1eyedog]

Bevo seems like an egotistical maniac. If he's questioned hard or if he's seen to be failing he seems to lash out and, to me, says way too much.

[Bullies]

No chance either getting a gig. Bevo would never countenance two ex-senior coaches being dropped into the box with him to "review" what he is doing. You can't have 2 alpha's, let alone 3. Noble would be Football Manager and not in the coaches box. He is one of the best in the business as proven with his success at Crows/Lions and his stint with us early in his career. Exactly what we need to turn the Football Department around and make the hard decisions.

[Grantysghost]

Noble would be Football Manager and not in the coaches box. He is one of the best in the business as proven with his success at Crows/Lions and his stint with us early in his career. Exactly what we need to turn the Football Department around and make the hard decisions.

Isn't that currently Dalrymple?

[Axe Man]

Isn't that currently Dalrymple?

Dalrymple has been in Sydney for a few years now...

Chris Grant is the Head of Football, Chris Maple is the Coaching and Operations Manager.

[Grantysghost]

Dalrymple has been in Sydney for a few years now...

Chris Grant is the Head of Football, Chris Maple is the Coaching and Operations Manager.

Maple thats the guy I meant. Thanks Axe.

[Grantysghost]

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/teams/afl/coaching-staff

[Bumper Bulldogs]

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/teams/afl/coaching-staff

14 coaches and not one of them have anything to do with between the ears. Very strange

[Grantysghost]

14 coaches and not one of them have anything to do with between the ears. Very strange

We definitely have a psychologist the players often reference them.

Probably a fair point though might need some more investment.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Bevo seems like an egotistical maniac. If he's questioned hard or if he's seen to be failing he seems to lash out and, to me, says way too much.

We all know that type. Plenty of people in power be it footy, education or whatever, authoritarians who have the attitude if you are not with me you are against me. I hope Bevo is not like that.

[MrMahatma]

Bevo seems like an egotistical maniac. If he's questioned hard or if he's seen to be failing he seems to lash out and, to me, says way too much.

When has this happened?

[Mofra]

We all know that type. Plenty of people in power be it footy, education or whatever, authoritarians who have the attitude if you are not with me you are against me. I hope Bevo is not like that.
I'll bite - just how collaborative can a senior coach be?
It's already a job for 1.5 people and the soft cap has reduced support. You absolutely need a clear, single direction.

I'm sure that the MC and coaches meetings are the time for airing opinions but if a coach doesn't have some authoritarian approach to ensure a single, easy to understand message reaches the players than a team has no hope.

[Vred]

Have heard from someone close to the Darcy family that Leon C will be back at the club next season.

[Topdog]

We definitely have a psychologist the players often reference them.

Probably a fair point though might need some more investment.

Do we still have the program with Victoria University?

[G-Mo77]

Have heard from someone close to the Darcy family that Leon C will be back at the club next season.

It'll take a while for the stink of GWS to were off him but once I get over that I will welcome this move.

[bornadog]

Do we still have the program with Victoria University?
Rawtoast can better answer, but I think yes

[BornInDroopSt'54]

It'll take a while for the stink of GWS to were off him but once I get over that I will welcome this move.

Next time we beat them and Leon is back in the fold will do it for me.

[Mantis]

Have heard from someone close to the Darcy family that Leon C will be back at the club next season.

I would hope it wouldn't be in a coaching role as I'm not sure what he can offer besides ''experience''.

[EasternWest]

Have heard from someone close to the Darcy family that Leon C will be back at the club next season.

That's a shame.

[Grantysghost]

It'll take a while for the stink of GWS to were off him but once I get over that I will welcome this move.

I'm the same. I've got a soft spot for Leon watching him come in with Grant back in 89/90.

He did get the Giants to a GF and a few prelims; despite what people think about the list that still takes a fair bit of coaching ability.

[jeemak]

I'm the same. I've got a soft spot for Leon watching him come in with Grant back in 89/90.

He did get the Giants to a GF and a few prelims; despite what people think about the list that still takes a fair bit of coaching ability.

Agreed. Very difficult to make preliminary finals, and grand finals let alone win the whole thing.

He was a genuine company man when he was with the Giants, and I would think he would be a genuine company man no matter where he went.

[bornadog]

I would hope it wouldn't be in a coaching role as I'm not sure what he can offer besides ''experience''.
Obviously you aren’t a fan. Do you think we need additional help in coaching ranks

[hujsh]

Leon was a quite highly rated assistant with Rocket was he not? I get he didn't win a premiership at the Giants but that doesn't mean he has nothing to offer the team

[bornadog]

Leon was a quite highly rated assistant with Rocket was he not? I get he didn't win a premiership at the Giants but that doesn't mean he has nothing to offer the team
Also with Clarkson

[DOG GOD]

We can’t go in next year with the same crop of assistants. If Cameron is available then so be it. We need experience. Cameron made a GF and some prelims. Yes he had the best draft picks etc, but you still have to make it. We supposedly have the best midfield the AFL has ever seen, and look at us at the moment. I wanna see changes and I wanna see BIG changes that makes us better in every department, on field and off.

[EasternWest]

Are we overlooking the fact that Cameron is a bit of a dick though?

[Bulldog4life]

Are we overlooking the fact that Cameron is a bit of a dick though?

What do you mean EW? I have never heard that.

[Mantis]

Obviously you aren’t a fan. Do you think we need additional help in coaching ranks

From the outside it seems that something is a miss inside the club, but I have no idea if it's a coaching or player issue.

I don't think Leon would offer us a great deal as the team he coached relied on individual performances rather than a system based approach... which where we are at and we clearly need a step change. Not sure Leon could help us in that case.

[GVGjr]

Agreed. Very difficult to make preliminary finals, and grand finals let alone win the whole thing.

He was a genuine company man when he was with the Giants, and I would think he would be a genuine company man no matter where he went.

Cameron would have improved as both as a coach and a footy person and would have plenty to offer the right club.
I'm not sure if he would be a great fit for us but he should land somewhere.

[bornadog]

Forgetting Cameron for a moment, I would look at someone who has never played for us, and has been an assistant under a successful coach. Someone with different ideas

[The Doctor]

Leon would be a great addition to our footy dept. I, like many, feel the current panel is underwhelming and under resourced. He brings experience which we badly need.

[azabob]

Forgetting Amerindian for a moment, I would look at someone who has never played for us, and has been an assistant under a successful coach. Someone with different ideas

I don't think Amerindian has played for us before. Maybe he could be an option? I honestly know nothing about him though.

[bornadog]

I don't think Amerindian has played for us before. Maybe he could be an option? I honestly know nothing about him though.
Good pickup, bloody autocorrect, should have checked. I am sitting in an airport in Istanbul waiting for an onward flight - that is my excuse

[Twice Bitten]

Smith and English have played ten and nine games respectively this year, out of sixteen.



... and more telling - Smith and English have only played five games together this year.

[Grantysghost]

Are we overlooking the fact that Cameron is a bit of a dick though?

But he's our dick.

[Mantis]

Leon would be a great addition to our footy dept. I, like many, feel the current panel is underwhelming and under resourced. He brings experience which we badly need.

Don't Maple, Smith & Webb offer experience? All have been in the coaching game for long periods of time.... As has Bevo.

[DOG GOD]

Good pickup, bloody autocorrect, should have checked. I am sitting in an airport in Istanbul waiting for an onward flight - that is my excuse

Wow safe travels

[jeemak]

Good pickup, bloody autocorrect, should have checked. I am sitting in an airport in Istanbul waiting for an onward flight - that is my excuse

What's the itinerary mate?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Are we overlooking the fact that Cameron is a bit of a dick though?

Played golf for a season with a Dog's supporter that I suspect is Jeemak, at Eagle Ridge. This bloke had employed lots of young Dog players in wool sorting I think. He said the only player he sacked was Leon Cameron for not showing up because of his dating. It surprised me.
Cameron won a premiership with our twos I think.

[jeemak]

Played golf for a season with a Dog's supporter that I suspect is Jeemak, at Eagle Ridge. This bloke had employed lots of young Dog players in wool sorting I think. He said the only player he sacked was Leon Cameron for not showing up because of his dating. It surprised me.

He must have been a very handsome and intelligent fellow, but alas, I have never dabbled in the glamourous and lucrative world of wool sorting!

[BornInDroopSt'54]

He must have been a very handsome and intelligent fellow, but alas, I have never dabbled in the glamourous and lucrative world of wool sorting!
But you did play at Eagle Ridge and a huge minority of regulars there were Bulldog supporters! Irish included.
You denied wool sorting but please put me out of my misery, did you ever sack Leon Cameron and are you grey haired like me, except with vibrant, cropped hair on top?

[GVGjr]

Forgetting Cameron for a moment, I would look at someone who has never played for us, and has been an assistant under a successful coach. Someone with different ideas

I think this is what we were all saying 12 months ago as well.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I think this is what we were all saying 12 months ago as well.

Far out.
Hmmm.
Due diligence would mean a Clarkson meeting and others.

[jeemak]

But you did play at Eagle Ridge and a huge minority of regulars there were Bulldog supporters! Irish included.
You denied wool sorting but please put me out of my misery, did you ever sack Leon Cameron and are you grey haired like me, except with vibrant, cropped hair on top?

Here I was thinking I came across as an immature jerk, only to find out I got it half wrong and that I come across as a mature jerk!

My Eagle Ridge time was between 1988-1998. Have played it twice since.

I had a family connection to the place over that initial period, and worked on the course maintenance team every school holidays from the age of 12 (yes, 12!) through to 18. The family connection with the joint ceased, and so did mine.

[GVGjr]

Far out.
Hmmm.
Due diligence would mean a Clarkson meeting and others.

Not sure I agree about Clarko, we might want to look at the support for Bevo but certainly not to replace him.

[MrMahatma]

I would hope it wouldn't be in a coaching role as I'm not sure what he can offer besides ''experience''.

You weren’t better at your chosen profession after a few years having a crack?

Look at the Suns. Have never made finals. They got a Ferrari also.

[jeemak]

Luke Hodge had some interesting insights into Clarkson and his suitability to Norf and any new team:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/bailey-smith-back-for-bulldogs-bruce-likely-to-return-20220713-p5b176.html

The key message being, unless you have strong leadership at the club to keep Clarkson who is difficult to get along with in check, there's no point in going for him (note, he left out Kennett's name when discussing Hawthorn personnel who fit the bill of being able to keep Clarkson in check).

Not sure we have the type of leadership in place.

[MrMahatma]

Luke Hodge had some interesting insights into Clarkson and his suitability to Norf and any new team:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/bailey-smith-back-for-bulldogs-bruce-likely-to-return-20220713-p5b176.html

The key message being, unless you have strong leadership at the club to keep Clarkson who is difficult to get along with in check, there's no point in going for him (note, he left out Kennett's name when discussing Hawthorn personnel who fit the bill of being able to keep Clarkson in check).

Not sure we have the type of leadership in place.

We don’t need Clarkson.

We need a good senior assistant defo.
We may need a better recruiter/list manager.
We may need a better head of fitness.
We need a key defender or 2.

[jeemak]

We don’t need Clarkson.

We need a good senior assistant defo.
We may need a better recruiter/list manager.
We may need a better head of fitness.
We need a key defender or 2.

I don't want Clarkson. I like him less than I like Leon Cameron and that's before Bulldogs credits are taken into account.

Firstly, his debut appearance on Talking Footy or On the Couch he was wearing shorts. That's right, shorts. Now I wear shorts as often as I can and the only time I've worn them on TV was during my runner up finish on The Football Squadron's Beat the Champ season's handball competition in 1989, or maybe I didn't even wear shorts and instead wore triacetate trackies. Whatever, you don't wear shorts on a talk show for footy.

He assaults people. He assaults walls. He pisses and moans more than Bevo ever has. He's a massive dick.

[Mofra]

I don't want Clarkson. I like him less than I like Leon Cameron and that's before Bulldogs credits are taken into account.

Firstly, his debut appearance on Talking Footy or On the Couch he was wearing shorts. That's right, shorts. Now I wear shorts as often as I can and the only time I've worn them on TV was during my runner up finish on The Football Squadron's Beat the Champ season's handball competition in 1989, or maybe I didn't even wear shorts and instead wore triacetate trackies. Whatever, you don't wear shorts on a talk show for footy.

He assaults people. He assaults walls. He pisses and moans more than Bevo ever has. He's a massive dick.

The couple of times I've bumped into Clarko he's been pretty friendly and treated groundstaff with respect.

Either way, I hope we get a senior assistant in the off season to assist Bevo.
$500k extra soft cap next year should help

[Grantysghost]

I don't want Clarkson. I like him less than I like Leon Cameron and that's before Bulldogs credits are taken into account.

Firstly, his debut appearance on Talking Footy or On the Couch he was wearing shorts. That's right, shorts. Now I wear shorts as often as I can and the only time I've worn them on TV was during my runner up finish on The Football Squadron's Beat the Champ season's handball competition in 1989, or maybe I didn't even wear shorts and instead wore triacetate trackies. Whatever, you don't wear shorts on a talk show for footy.

He assaults people. He assaults walls. He pisses and moans more than Bevo ever has. He's a massive dick.

Take my like God dammit.

Just for using the word...

Triacetate.

[Mantis]

You weren’t better at your chosen profession after a few years having a crack?

Look at the Suns. Have never made finals. They got a Ferrari also.

GWS were given much more assistance from the AFL in terms of picks, etc. when they started up... they also had the Suns blueprint of what not to do... They very much had the easier path.

Leon has been in the coaching caper for 20+ years and I can't see what fresh ideas he would bring to do our club.

[Mantis]

We don’t need Clarkson.

We need a good senior assistant defo.
We may need a better recruiter/list manager.
We may need a better head of fitness.
We need a key defender or 2.

I'm a little intrigued by this call.. what is your concern with this area?

[GVGjr]

GWS were given much more assistance from the AFL in terms of picks, etc. when they started up... they also had the Suns blueprint of what not to do... They very much had the easier path.

Leon has been in the coaching caper for 20+ years and I can't see what fresh ideas he would bring to do our club.

I don't know if he can come to us but the fact that he has been a coach for so long doesn't mean he isn't refreshing his coaching philosophies and approach.
GWS used taggers from time to time which isn't the norm with many coaches. I'm sure he has faults but the length of tenure as a coach I don't think should work against him.

[GVGjr]

We don’t need Clarkson.

We need a good senior assistant defo.
We may need a better recruiter/list manager.
We may need a better head of fitness.
We need a key defender or 2.

I agree about Clarkson, whatever increase to the soft cap would be swallowed up by him.
Another good assistant coach (senior) is a given and yes a key defender or two should be a priority.

Just on the recruiter and list manager, from a draft perspective we have been hampered in bringing in players over the last two due to the points required for Ugle-Hagan and Darcy so hard to say they've missed the mark.
I understand we missed all the players we thought might be available with our picks last year but that is going to happen from time to time. Is there anything specific you think puts the recruiting team and list manager under the pump?

[Bullies]

I agree about Clarkson, whatever increase to the soft cap would be swallowed up by him.
Another good assistant coach (senior) is a given and yes a key defender or two should be a priority.

Just on the recruiter and list manager, from a draft perspective we have been hampered in bringing in players over the last two due to the points required for Ugle-Hagan and Darcy so hard to say they've missed the mark.
I understand we missed all the players we thought might be available with our picks last year but that is going to happen from time to time. Is there anything specific you think puts the recruiting team and list manager under the pump? We need a good Football Manager ie: David Noble who make the decisions for the Football Department. Someone who oversees the Assistants/Recruiters/List Managers and is not afraid to make a hard call. This will take pressure of Bevo as well.

[MrMahatma]

I'm a little intrigued by this call.. what is your concern with this area?

I just reckon all the heat that comes up about our list and the holes gets pointed at Bevo and not Sam.

[GVGjr]

Bains on SEN today

Seems we believe we a compromised preseason is one of the contributing factors for our struggles and got us off to a slow start.
Injuries and surgeries are always a consideration
Answering Bevo's revelation about conviction from the group Bains mentioned that there have been periods in games when our concentration lacks.
Loss of experience in the coaching group was mentioned.
Bains also concedes a loss to the Saints will as good as shot the door on finals this year.

[EasternWest]

GWS were given much more assistance from the AFL in terms of picks, etc. when they started up... they also had the Suns blueprint of what not to do... They very much had the easier path.

Leon has been in the coaching caper for 20+ years and I can't see what fresh ideas he would bring to do our club.

And also as someone smart, astute and handsome said earlier, he's a bit of a prick.

[azabob]

And also as someone smart, astute and handsome said earlier, he's a bit of a prick.

I can't recall getting involved in this discussion, but if you said I have, I bow to your better judgement.

[Grantysghost]

I can't recall getting involved in this discussion, but if you said I have, I bow to your better judgement.

https://media.giphy.com/media/cNkqxt6WVjzR1O8SVG/giphy.gif

[BornInDroopSt'54]

A pro Bevo article here:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-14/western-bulldogs-afl-luke-beveridge-defence-system-jack-macrae/101233536

[Topdog]

Bains on SEN today

Seems we believe we a compromised preseason is one of the contributing factors for our struggles and got us off to a slow start.
Injuries and surgeries are always a consideration
Answering Bevo's revelation about conviction from the group Bains mentioned that there have been periods in games when our concentration lacks.
Loss of experience in the coaching group was mentioned.
Bains also concedes a loss to the Saints will as good as shot the door on finals this year.

Did he give any insight into what compromised our preseason.
Most disappointing that the last 2 times we have made a GF we have completely blown the next season.

[MrMahatma]

Did he give any insight into what compromised our preseason.
Most disappointing that the last 2 times we have made a GF we have completely blown the next season.

Nah, didn’t really (I listened but was half nodding off…).

It’s interesting that preparation has been mentioned though. Short preseason for sure but Dees had the same and Cats were just a couple weeks behind.

I know English and Naughton were in WA for the first part but both of those seem to have been fine throughout the season. And it’s not like we have tired in games so much, more that we haven’t show up at times. (All the talk that Sydney match was a one off ignores the Cats first qtr not long ago).

[Sedat]

Most disappointing that the last 2 times we have made a GF we have completely blown the next season.
Apart from Rocket (3 years of finals in a row, all top 4) and Plough (4 years of finals in a row), we have always done this in my lifetime. And I'm on the wrong side of 50. Might be massively diappointing but it is not exactly surprising that we have failed to follow up a successful season yet again this year.

[jeemak]

I wonder if much of this happens at our club:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/07/21/the-big-issue-between-being-liked-and-respected/

Luke Hodge has seen over his time in the game a difference between being liked and being respected.

The former Hawthorn captain was assessing St Kilda coach Brett Ratten’s post-game address to his players in the wake of their loss to the Western Bulldogs last Friday night.


The club released the footage of Ratten speaking with his Saints players in the rooms with one of the more pertinent quotes stemming from his own experiences as a player in a successful Carlton side.

Ratten said: “The teams that I’ve been involved in, there was f---ing blokes saying that ain’t f---ing good enough mate, lift your game. It’s not like he doesn’t like ya, but we’re playing for a f---ing spot in the finals”.

Essentially, Ratten was saying: “We’ve got to ask more of each other”.


Four-time premiership Hawk and ex-Lion Hodge admits there can sometimes be a “big issue” when it comes to confronting teammates in order to improve.

But if you can get it right, it goes a long way to improving standards.

“There’s a big issue with leadership in AFL and it’s the issue between being wanting to be liked or wanting to be respected,” Hodge said on SEN’s Whateley.

“Early on, a lot of younger players especially, they don’t want to say the wrong thing in case they’re not liked by other teammates. Because if they say the wrong thing and they take offence, then, ‘He might not like me, he might not have a beer with me after the game’, and that might fracture their relationship as players and teammates.

“When you get older, it turns from, ‘He might not like me right now, we can get over that, but he’s going to respect me by the end of the game, by the end of the season, by the end of my career’. That’s the twisting part that sounds like ‘Ratts’ is trying to push with these St Kilda players.

“Be tight enough off-field so then when you do say something on-field, when you do push someone, when maybe you say something to a teammate that he may not like, the fact that he knows where it’s coming from. It’s coming from a place where he wants us to get better, he wants us to push that extra little bit.

“If I don’t give my all, I expect a teammate to tell me that. If I see him do the same thing, I will let him know the same thing. It’s not about liking and not liking, it’s about getting the best out of each other.

“They were playing for a finals spot and you look through trying to get the best out of your teammates - 41 clearances to 21. If you look through St Kilda’s midfield, we’ve pumped (Rowan) Marshall and (Paddy) Ryder up about their ruck work, and then you look at (Jack) Steele, (Brad) Crouch and (Zak) Jones. Blokes in there that you think will roll up their sleeves, who will get dirty and get the clearances out. They lost by 20.

“That’s what Ratts is talking about. If you see someone not having a go, mention it, say it to him. Tell him next time that you’ve got to go harder because as soon as you say it to him, I tell you what, next time you better do it because otherwise your teammates are going to come back at you and say the same thing.”

Hodge touched on his own experiences throughout his extensive and savagely successful playing days.

He provided some intriguing insight into the demands amongst the players at Hawthorn and how he had to ensure to newcomers that Jarryd Roughead and Jordan Lewis were indeed mates, such was their lofty expectations of one another.

Lewis Roughead Hawthorn

“It’s about being a leader and getting older and getting that respect part, it’s about moulding both sides,” Hodge added.

“We used to call it two-way feedback. Being happy to say it to a teammate, but also being happy to accept it.

“It took me a long time for the accepting part because I needed to work on off-the-ball stuff as well.

“We had to explain to new blokes that came in to Hawthorn that ‘Roughy’ and ‘Lewy’ actually liked each other. On the football field they were honest.

“I used to have good honest feedback with (Brad) Sewell, ‘Mitch’ (Sam Mitchell) and ‘Gibbo’ (Josh Gibson), (but) Lewy and Roughy were the next level because they had that relationship off-field. They could say whatever they wanted to each other.

“They’d still walk off the field and know they are saying it to get the best out of them to benefit the club and the playing group.

“It’s about pushing those boundaries, using senior guys and practising at training. You need to give them feedback then and there at training if they’re doing the right thing or not.”

Listen to Hodge’s full chat with Gerard Whateley below:

[Hotdog60]

It makes you wonder what it is like behind closed doors its a different world out there today and political correctness has gone through the roof and not much can be said without it offending someone. (Sorry if statement offended someone).
When giving feedback you can't say it straight you have to select your words carefully and not everyone can articulate what they are trying to say just like me typing this post.
Maybe a team meeting at the start of the season and just say if it seems like I'm picking on you I'm not just trying to get the best out of everyone for the team.
Was it Johnno that held someone against a locker to tell a few home truths ah the good old days.
Sorry I shouldn't have said that I apologise.

[hujsh]

It makes you wonder what it is like behind closed doors its a different world out there today and political correctness has gone through the roof and not much can be said without it offending someone. (Sorry if statement offended someone).
When giving feedback you can't say it straight you have to select your words carefully and not everyone can articulate what they are trying to say just like me typing this post.
Maybe a team meeting at the start of the season and just say if it seems like I'm picking on you I'm not just trying to get the best out of everyone for the team.
Was it Johnno that held someone against a locker to tell a few home truths ah the good old days.
Sorry I shouldn't have said that I apologise.

Don't really see how it relates to what Hodge was talking about unless the person in question is Tex Walker

[Hotdog60]

There you go I used the wrong wording because I can't articulate what I trying say its very hard to communicate now days.

“Early on, a lot of younger players especially, they don’t want to say the wrong thing in case they’re not liked by other teammates. Because if they say the wrong thing and they take offence, then, ‘He might not like me, he might not have a beer with me after the game’, and that might fracture their relationship as players and teammates."

The meaning I was after was in relation to offending someone like in the paragraph above.

[hujsh]

There you go I used the wrong wording because I can't articulate what I trying say its very hard to communicate now days.

“Early on, a lot of younger players especially, they don’t want to say the wrong thing in case they’re not liked by other teammates. Because if they say the wrong thing and they take offence, then, ‘He might not like me, he might not have a beer with me after the game’, and that might fracture their relationship as players and teammates."

The meaning I was after was in relation to offending someone like in the paragraph above.

Right. But I think if you're putting it down to being politically correct then either we have different understandings of what that term means or different understandings of what Hodge means.

To me it means not being an -ist of some sort. What Hodge is talking about is not wanting to step on anyone's toes calling out bad behavior or poor standards etc. Not wanting to do the hard thing because you feel it'll hurt you relationship with that person, maybe partially due to not feeling secure yourself in your position or not feeling senior enough to do something like that.

I mean sure in the good old days you could probably tell someone to stop being such a lazy Ab* and no one would call you out for it but I don't think that's the best way to get a point across if you want someone to listen (which is a case where being PC would change the approach).

I doubt this is radically different now to 20 years ago. People have always wanted to be liked by their team mates and work mates and there's always a risk of pissing someone off if you tell them their not doing something right regardless of how well you approach them.

[Bulldog4life]

Right. But I think if you're putting it down to being politically correct then either we have different understandings of what that term means or different understandings of what Hodge means.

To me it means not being an -ist of some sort. What Hodge is talking about is not wanting to step on anyone's toes calling out bad behavior or poor standards etc. Not wanting to do the hard thing because you feel it'll hurt you relationship with that person, maybe partially due to not feeling secure yourself in your position or not feeling senior enough to do something like that.

I mean sure in the good old days you could probably tell someone to stop being such a lazy Ab* and no one would call you out for it but I don't think that's the best way to get a point across if you want someone to listen (which is a case where being PC would change the approach).

I doubt this is radically different now to 20 years ago. People have always wanted to be liked by their team mates and work mates and there's always a risk of pissing someone off if you tell them their not doing something right regardless of how well you approach them.

I remember when I first started work there was an American guy there. He was always a bit strange towards me so I asked him. "Have you got a problem with me?" "No" he said. "I just don't like you". I walked away with my tail between my legs....hell no-one wants to hear that. I wish I never asked him.

[Bulldog Joe]

I just reckon all the heat that comes up about our list and the holes gets pointed at Bevo and not Sam.

Surely one of the problems for the list manager is the reluctance of the coach to play certain players.

I am in the camp that Sam Power has done what we have expected of him to a highly competent level.

[MrMahatma]

Surely one of the problems for the list manager is the reluctance of the coach to play certain players.

I am in the camp that Sam Power has done what we have expected of him to a highly competent level.

This is pretty much exactly my point. So there are players on the list that the coach doesn’t think are up to it, or can’t play the way he needs them to, and apparently that’s got nothing to do with the list manager?

What exactly is the list manager accountable for? Just making sure we have enough players?

[mjp]

Surely one of the problems for the list manager is the reluctance of the coach to play certain players.

I am in the camp that Sam Power has done what we have expected of him to a highly competent level.

I am in the same camp.

But selecting players who the coach WILL PLAY is surely part of the Job Description. No good spending capital on players who you know wont tick the non-negotiables list of the coach...

[Bulldog Joe]

I am in the same camp.

But selecting players who the coach WILL PLAY is surely part of the Job Description. No good spending capital on players who you know wont tick the non-negotiables list of the coach...

Not sure the list manager can identify that in advance.
It seems we have brought in a few that the coach wanted, with Tim O'Brien the latest. Jackson Trengove seemed that way but lost favour.
That can't be on the list manager.

[GVGjr]

I am in the same camp.

But selecting players who the coach WILL PLAY is surely part of the Job Description. No good spending capital on players who you know wont tick the non-negotiables list of the coach...

It's a tricky one and it probably depends on what that list looks like from a coach perspective.
It's doesn't all go to shit when a coach, and therefore a new game style, comes into a club if the playing list is strong enough. Coaches are initially happy to work with what they have and it's only later they want the recruiters to address certain types that they prefer. Look at Craig McRae at Collingwood, he inherited a list that was under performing and one that they're paying a highly regarded player 250/300K a season to play against them and one that lost it's highest paid player for a significant chunk of the season and their most talented player who is at the crossroads of his career and yet with all those distractions the Pies are right in the finals mix. He's simply worked with what he's got and hasn't really had a chance to shape the playing list he is coaching.
Who knows how that will play out in time and if he starts insisting on certainly playing types or traits with players.
As a stark contrast David Noble arrives at North who are in all sorts of hurt with the quality of their playing list and he's gone as the coach in his 2nd season.

Years back didn't Rocket want players who's skills were around kicking and as a result we went for Howard and Tutt?
I think we passed over Sam Reid who went to Sydney and selected Tutt and despite some injury challenges along the journey Reid is still playing and is a highly versatile type. We got the player types that Rocket wanted but they were never likely to be 100/150 game type players and that is what builds strong clubs.

If you detour away from the best players too much at the draft table I don't think it serves the club that well in the long term. It's at the trade table where clubs should look to fix their gaps.

I also don't think coaches should have much of a say in he recruitment of the younger players They've seen vision, they have attended the meetings but it's still not their specialty. They are there for their ability to manage players, develop game plans and utilise the talent they have on the playing list.

Our recent history with Bulldog coaches appear to have had different philosophies to draft days and recruitment.

Wallace was very reluctant to get involved, he didn't get to see the players enough and trusted the recruiting team to find the best players. He got very involved in the trade period though and sold the farm for long kicking players like Eagleton. Pace and the depth in kicking seemed to be his preferred traits.

Eade probably had a very balanced view that in the main backed the recruiters. He was certainly across the players in the mix but typically let the recruiters determine the best players. During Eade's time I think we always had a first round selections so he ensured we kept and eye on the future.
We traded some 2nd rounders for experienced players but the recruiting team always seemed to have decent picks to work with.

McCartney appeared to get more involved in recruiting and really wanted someone like Clay Smith because he was a contested ball focused coach and Smith was a contested ball focused player.

Bevo seems to be very involved in recruitment and has strong views on who gets played and who we might recruit. I just question if he should.

In 2014 he inherited a team and immediately got right into molding the team into playing the style of football he impressed on the people that recruited him and he did that to great effect in 2015 getting us into a finals series and playing some sensational football.
Of course he took us even further in 2016 and the results are etched into our minds forever.
This was not a list he necessarily shaped in terms of recruitment but one that reacted positively to his coaching methods. I think this is the most important part of what the coach should be focused on.

Above are some examples of coaches views on recruiting and while there is no perfect example I do believe the coaches should coach and pretty much leave the recruitment up to the list and recruiting managers.

Dalrymple made these observations about recruitment and I think they hold true:
It’s looking at the player’s attributes. Do they fit into the roles that you see them playing at AFL level?
And then if they have the attributes, do they have the temperament and the mental approach to be successful?
And then do they have the physical attributes as part of that? Will they fit into the way your club plays?'

I might be 100% wrong here but do the coaches really know what they need more than the recruiting team? Are they more worried about the now than having a more balanced view on the now and the future?

Dom Milesi arrived at the club in 2020 and he and Sam Power have had to deal with the challenges of Covid and the interruptions to some of the junior development footy programs. Milesi and Power have had to concentrate more on getting draft value index points for top end talent in Ugle-Hagan and Darcy and picks to land Treloar more than bringing in players they have assessed as the right types.
At some point I'd like us to get back to selecting the best footballers.

You're in a vastly better position to determine what the correct approach is or might be but I want the coaches more focused on that job rather than drilling into the recruiting process.

[MrMahatma]

What makes you think Bevo is more involved in who we draft than previous coaches?

[GVGjr]

What makes you think Bevo is more involved in who we draft than previous coaches?

I don't think I'm saying that, he's probably more involved than Wallace and maybe less involved than B-Mac.
I think the coaching job should be the primary focus and input into recruiting right down the list.
With more limited coaching resources he should have even more faith in the recruiting team to back their judgement.

[MrMahatma]

I don't think I'm saying that, he's probably more involved than Wallace and maybe less involved than B-Mac.
I think the coaching job should be the primary focus and input into recruiting right down the list.
With more limited coaching resources he should have even more faith in the recruiting team to back their judgement.

What does this mean then??
“Bevo seems to be very involved in recruitment and has strong views on who gets played and who we might recruit. I just question if he should.”

[GVGjr]

What does this mean then??
“Bevo seems to be very involved in recruitment and has strong views on who gets played and who we might recruit. I just question if he should.”

Coaches are involved and attend the meetings, I think Bevo has strong views on the types of players we recruit and of course play.
I'm questioning how much involvement coaches should have. As I pointed out Bevo did exceptionally well in his first two years with us and would have had minimal input into the playing list.

[Bulldog Joe]

Coaches are involved and attend the meetings, I think Bevo has strong views on the types of players we recruit and of course play.
I'm questioning how much involvement coaches should have. As I pointed out Bevo did exceptionally well in his first two years with us and would have had minimal input into the playing list.

Bevo's first 2 years really show that coaches should develop a plan to suit the list, rather than demand a list that suits the plan.

[jeemak]

I think it needs to be a balance.

With the likes of Trengove and O'Brien, it's not like they hadn't had a chance. Trengove was tried all over and was clearly slowing down in his career. While you could have made an argument to play him you had plenty of reason not to, and for his first two years on the list he was played mostly if healthy.

O'Brien is an interesting one. It might be taking him a while to find his feet/ confidence in our structure, and that's not all that out of the ordinary given the technical nature of the way we defend and running required. He could still come good and just because he's not playing right now it doesn't mean he won't be next year.

I like the idea of drafting for best available in the first two rounds (maybe three if its early) based on an holistic view of your list's strength and weaknesses in mind, and if it's a dead heat between players decide before the process kicks off who has the final say and get on with it. Use the latter part of the draft/ rookie draft and trading to address needs.

[Happy Days]

Shout out to Bevo. Not exactly sure what it was but there was clearly some adjustment made on that prick Oliver after quarter time, which is something we can all be guilty of accusing him being too stubborn to do.

[jeemak]

Shout out to Bevo. Not exactly sure what it was but there was clearly some adjustment made on that prick Oliver after quarter time, which is something we can all be guilty of accusing him being too stubborn to do.

Much less assertive at stoppages it seemed, and looked liked we tried to keep goal side of him at them rather than let him get that clear forward run.

Oliver was still good, just a bit dulled.

[mjp]

Years back didn't Rocket want players who's skills were around kicking and as a result we went for Howard and Tutt?
I think we passed over Sam Reid who went to Sydney and selected Tutt and despite some injury challenges along the journey Reid is still playing and is a highly versatile type. We got the player types that Rocket wanted but they were never likely to be 100/150 game type players and that is what builds strong clubs.

I agree with 99% of your comments and just want to talk about 'these examples' for a minute vs the point I was TRYING (pretty badly) to make.

Selecting one dimensional players like Howard and Tutt was NEVER going to work. That isn't selecting players who the coach 'will play' - that is honing in on one skill possessed by a player and selecting them based on that. Dalrymple did an amazing job for us but the Howard selection/failure is one that has probably influenced his future draft decisions more than any other...it was a monumental stuff up from the start and I say this as much due to WHERE he was selected as WHY he was selected.

When I say 'select players who the coach will play', that is based on NON NEGOTIABLES and not on a single specific skill. Fremantle said they wouldn't take Tom Barass due to his poor endurance. In the Ross Lyon system, Key Defenders do not leave the field...that is a non-negotiable. So instead they focussed in on Alex Pearce, Brennan Cox etc etc and others. They aren't selecting for a SINGLE SKILL - rather they are DE-selecting for a single skill.

Other examples: Selecting a defender under 185cm is pretty much a no-no for a lot of coaches - that doesn't seem to phase Bevo with Caleb Daniel but a lot of coaches simply wouldn't play such a player. So don't draft him - otherwise it will be 2-years and done. I can think of a few that pertain to Bevo but the one that jumps off the page is don't select a ruckman who doesn't also have the ability to play as a forward...just DONT PICK THEM.

And yep, I know what you are saying re- coach changes etc - and I agree with you. That is why you apply the 'pick the best player with an understanding of the non-negotiables' rather than pick A player based on a singular characteristic.

[Bulldog4life]

I agree with 99% of your comments and just want to talk about 'these examples' for a minute vs the point I was TRYING (pretty badly) to make.

Selecting one dimensional players like Howard and Tutt was NEVER going to work. That isn't selecting players who the coach 'will play' - that is honing in on one skill possessed by a player and selecting them based on that. Dalrymple did an amazing job for us but the Howard selection/failure is one that has probably influenced his future draft decisions more than any other...it was a monumental stuff up from the start and I say this as much due to WHERE he was selected as WHY he was selected.

When I say 'select players who the coach will play', that is based on NON NEGOTIABLES and not on a single specific skill. Fremantle said they wouldn't take Tom Barass due to his poor endurance. In the Ross Lyon system, Key Defenders do not leave the field...that is a non-negotiable. So instead they focussed in on Alex Pearce, Brennan Cox etc etc and others. They aren't selecting for a SINGLE SKILL - rather they are DE-selecting for a single skill.

Other examples: Selecting a defender under 185cm is pretty much a no-no for a lot of coaches - that doesn't seem to phase Bevo with Caleb Daniel but a lot of coaches simply wouldn't play such a player. So don't draft him - otherwise it will be 2-years and done. I can think of a few that pertain to Bevo but the one that jumps off the page is don't select a ruckman who doesn't also have the ability to play as a forward...just DONT PICK THEM.

And yep, I know what you are saying re- coach changes etc - and I agree with you. That is why you apply the 'pick the best player with an understanding of the non-negotiables' rather than pick A player based on a singular characteristic.

I saw him play in the Championships as a rover/forward. Had some terrific games. I'm sure when drafted no-one thought he would end up playing back.

[GVGjr]

I agree with 99% of your comments and just want to talk about 'these examples' for a minute vs the point I was TRYING (pretty badly) to make.

Selecting one dimensional players like Howard and Tutt was NEVER going to work. That isn't selecting players who the coach 'will play' - that is honing in on one skill possessed by a player and selecting them based on that. Dalrymple did an amazing job for us but the Howard selection/failure is one that has probably influenced his future draft decisions more than any other...it was a monumental stuff up from the start and I say this as much due to WHERE he was selected as WHY he was selected.

When I say 'select players who the coach will play', that is based on NON NEGOTIABLES and not on a single specific skill. Fremantle said they wouldn't take Tom Barass due to his poor endurance. In the Ross Lyon system, Key Defenders do not leave the field...that is a non-negotiable. So instead they focussed in on Alex Pearce, Brennan Cox etc etc and others. They aren't selecting for a SINGLE SKILL - rather they are DE-selecting for a single skill.

Other examples: Selecting a defender under 185cm is pretty much a no-no for a lot of coaches - that doesn't seem to phase Bevo with Caleb Daniel but a lot of coaches simply wouldn't play such a player. So don't draft him - otherwise it will be 2-years and done. I can think of a few that pertain to Bevo but the one that jumps off the page is don't select a ruckman who doesn't also have the ability to play as a forward...just DONT PICK THEM.

And yep, I know what you are saying re- coach changes etc - and I agree with you. That is why you apply the 'pick the best player with an understanding of the non-negotiables' rather than pick A player based on a singular characteristic.

Thanks for the clarification. Really appreciate getting a coaches perspective.

Just on Daniel, I don't think he was originally seen as a defender and initially came to us to more or less play as a forward.
I used to have a chuckle seeing such a smaller player lining up in the CHF position and remembering the old days of ruck men big blokes like David Cloke or David McKay occupying that position.
I think Daniel and Dale are fantastic examples of where Bevo looks at players and utilises their strengths rather than necessarily being locked into pre-determined idea's.
I wonder if other coaches would have been as adaptable with those two because Dale for example put in some impressive performances as a forward before Bevo identified he wanted to generate drive from the back line.