Three things you've learned. Round twenty one 2022 v Fremantle

[Twodogs]

And away you go...

[GVGjr]

Bump

[Mutz]

1. Darcy has incredible hands and ball motion sense – he will be a marking machine.

2. Although we often win centre clearance stats, when we lose it is very damaging. Poor set-up, one-paced, and fumbly when in possession. How long ago it seems from early 2021 when everyone was saying how invincible they were.

3. Team selection needs to be scrutinised. Players not suited to roles (Adz at HB), players not dropped for poor form (Bruce).

Bonus. We are being outcoached every week. A review of coaching staff is essential and that includes the premiership coach. I don’t know who has authority to do that but it must be done over the break.

Extra. The pattern has been set. Play in a grand final and don’t play finals the following year!

[westbulldog]

1. Matthew Boyd should be our defensive coach, not Fremantle's.
2. We need to recruit a top line key defender.
3. The selection committee are surely half cut when they pick the team.

[Bullies]

1. Maybe it is time to change things up and get new ideas in to rejuvenate the team much like Collingwood have done.

2. Dunks probably wont be there next year but I would like to see him lead the team if he stays. We just don't have leadership.

3. We were certainly shown up for pace and our game plan doesn't stack up when sides have good skill and play possession football.

[Dry Rot]

2. Dunks probably wont be there next year but I would like to see him lead the team if he stays. We just don't have leadership.



1. This. We lack leadership across the lines.

2. If Dunkley leaves, we are going to be really soft.

2. Our small/no name pressure players like mcNeil, Garcia and West are not the reason we are poor.

[Dancin' Douggy]

1. Something is wrong. We are so easy to score against it's pathetic. Time for a serious coaching shake up. Our 'system' stinks.

2. We have no plan B, in fact I don't think we even have a plan A. We just rely on individual moments of brilliance. Our team on paper oozes glamour and star power but we couldn't play with any coherence or system today and Fremantle picked our bones clean like we were a gnu carcass baking in the Serengheti sun. And we actually probably stunk just as bad as that gnu carcass as well.

3. Lobb played great today but I still don't understand why we are chasing him. He played well today because they played Wirth a great system with lots of space and we let them. If Lobb was playing for us today he would have struggled to find space and would have been flying in packs with Jamarra, Bruce, Naughton and Weightman....... How does that help us? We need a PROPER back up ruckman not another tall forward.

[bornadog]

1. Field kicking was atrocious today with the number of turnovers due to bad kicking

2. Keath is almost COOKED

3. Darcy can play with men

[AshMac]

1. Our zone is atrocious. We have players marking blades of grass and other teams transition is too easy and quick

2. Our B grade assistant coaching panel is on display against the top 8 teams. All grapevine - but I’ve head Bevo is tough to work w in the coaches box. IF (if) that is true it explains why we can’t get an Mark Williams/Rocket Eade level of assistant coach in there which I think we desperately need

3. Take a bow Ed Richards. Outstanding. The kicking on his right foot overall was superb


Side note - personally I’m glad we aren’t going to limp into finals and just make up the numbers. Send Bont and Naughton for surgery now, play guys in roles we want to test them for the preseason.

[Mofra]

1. Forwards who don't lead are useless, and at times we played 6 of them at the same time

2. Giving up the cheap, short 45' kick kills us every week

3. We lack 'spirit' and don't deserve finals.

[G-Mo77]

3. Darcy can play with men

It's my immature mind at play here. I was eating my wheat bix this morning and almost choked when I read this.

He did really well for his first game. Transitioned to the higher level with ease.

[SonofScray]

1. The club, for the second time in recent history, fails to acknowledge the passing of an important past Bulldog. That’s not good enough. Pretty disgusting, but emblematic of that side of Coib culture under Ameet Baines, who is taking care of the commercial side of things, but under his leadership the treatment of fans and commit,ent to Club identity has been as poor as it’s ever been.

2. Bevo spent the last of his credits he had gained from a second GF appearance. He’s got two games and a miracle OR until half time R2 2023 to put some spirit into our game, and stop the gifting of goals direct from centre bounces until I am back in full sack the coach mode.

3. We are going to have to shoot one of our gun midfielders to change the mix. The chemistry isn’t right.

[Grantysghost]

1. The mids against real quality get exposed. Not at all as good collectively as they are individually and are very one paced.
Their delivery inside 50 is atrocious and as has been spoken about here don’t work hard enough defensively with the exception of Dunkley.
Macrae was played mainly on the wing so I guess we were trying that a bit with Smith for pace so maybe we already realise this.

2. Freo are a very well coached side with a core of players who may deliver them the ultimate.

3. Dunkley is our best midfielder.

[jeemak]

1. The mids against real quality get exposed. Not at all as good collectively as they are individually and are very one paced.
Their delivery inside 50 is atrocious and as has been spoken about here don’t work hard enough defensively with the exception of Dunkley.
Macrae was played mainly on the wing so I guess we were trying that a bit with Smith for pace so maybe we already realise this.

2. Freo are a very well coached side with a core of players who may deliver them the ultimate.

3. Dunkley is our best midfielder.

He played exceptionally yesterday, however, he is completely incapable of moving the footy forward quickly or playing any other role than the one he does. I do really like him but if he's going he's still the one I want to see go.

I was an outlier when it came to Daniel Cross and his "disposal efficiency" and overall contribution to the mix. Perhaps I just have an issue with players who can't kick it quickly.

[DOG GOD]

1. If we don’t completely revamp our defence for 2023 we will not make finals again

2. Individually we can be brilliant, but team wise we can suck balls

3. Bevo refuses to play a one on one game style when we are being slaughtered…why?

Extra: this team needs more than a tweak. It’s needs leadership on field and it’s needs to be instilled with a TEAM FIRST mentality. Players need to be picked on merit. It can turn around. Look at Collingwood. They are playing as a TEAM. Question is, do we have the ability to turn our ego’s around. ? And how will the impact of losing “Dunkley, Williams, Hunter” have on the playing group if it eventuated ?

[Grantysghost]

He played exceptionally yesterday, however, he is completely incapable of moving the footy forward quickly or playing any other role than the one he does. I do really like him but if he's going he's still the one I want to see go.

I was an outlier when it came to Daniel Cross and his "disposal efficiency" and overall contribution to the mix. Perhaps I just have an issue with players who can't kick it quickly.

He's certainly purely inside but he can score and defensively he's very good.

It's the natural baton change with Liberatore.

He shows leadership too. When we are struggling is sometimes when he's at his best.

[jeemak]

He's certainly purely inside but he can score and defensively he's very good.

It's the natural baton change with Liberatore.

He shows leadership too. When we are struggling is sometimes when he's at his best.

But the issue is Libba isn't going anywhere soon. And that's fine with me even though I think he gets a free pass when he's undisciplined with his positioning and too assertive in the middle.

It actually comes down to Josh. Is he OK playing two more years at most in his current role or does he crave a more central/ midfield role? It staggers me that if it isn't money alone that he wouldn't be content with getting mid twenties and kicking a goal a game, to me that's football bliss.

Maybe he just needs his tummy rubbed a bit more like Bevo did in the presser this evening.

[Grantysghost]

But the issue is Libba isn't going anywhere soon. And that's fine with me even though I think he gets a free pass when he's undisciplined with his positioning and too assertive in the middle.

It actually comes down to Josh. Is he OK playing two more years at most in his current role or does he crave a more central/ midfield role? It staggers me that if it isn't money alone that he wouldn't be content with getting mid twenties and kicking a goal a game, to me that's football bliss.

Maybe he just needs his tummy rubbed a bit more like Bevo did in the presser this evening.

Libba has slowed noticeably as this year's progressed.

Still amazing.

But next year will probably be the last.

[bornadog]

Libba has slowed noticeably as this year's progressed.

Still amazing.

But next year will probably be the last.

Libba will go close to winning Sutton medal this year, after many WOOFERs wrote him off at the start of the year when he had Covid.

[Grantysghost]

Libba will go close to winning Sutton medal this year, after many WOOFERs wrote him off at the start of the year when he had Covid.

He's been very good.

Even if he does get another contract for 2024 I can see the handover happening to Dunks.

[SquirrelGrip]

1. Lobb will never kick that straight again.

2. Macrae limit us because can only play one position.

3. The RoboDog jersey has never been a good jersey.

[bornadog]

1. Lobb will never kick that straight again.

2. Macrae limit us because can only play one position.

3. The RoboDog jersey has never been a good jersey.

Lobb is running at 61% accuracy

[gohardorgohome]

I was very impressed with Sam Darcy’s positioning…. He lost a few contests because he was out muscled.. that’ll happen…..
The impact of trading draft picks for points over the last few years is telling…. We looked very slow at times…..players like JJ, Doc and Crozier had pace …. But they are not the future…. I’d give Bedendo a run in the last few weeks..

Many players look banged up… It hasn’t been a good year… I can’t see us winning a final even if we do make it.

[GVGjr]

I was very impressed with Sam Darcy’s positioning…. He lost a few contests because he was out muscled.. that’ll happen…..
The impact of trading draft picks for points over the last few years is telling…. We looked very slow at times…..players like JJ, Doc and Crozier had pace …. But they are not the future…. I’d give Bedendo a run in the last few weeks..

Many players look banged up… It hasn’t been a good year… I can’t see us winning a final even if we do make it.

Good post and great to have you back contributing to discussions.

[EasternWest]

Libba will go close to winning Sutton medal this year, after many WOOFERs wrote him off at the start of the year when he had Covid.

I didn't. I was all in on him.

It was Happy Days that said he was old and slow.

[jeemak]

Libba has slowed noticeably as this year's progressed.

Still amazing.

But next year will probably be the last.


Libba will go close to winning Sutton medal this year, after many WOOFERs wrote him off at the start of the year when he had Covid.


He's been very good.

Even if he does get another contract for 2024 I can see the handover happening to Dunks.


I didn't. I was all in on him.

It was Happy Days that said he was old and slow.

Firstly, it was definitely Happy Days who said everything about the demise of Libba. Nobody else did.

I don't see him going past 2024, but it won't be enough to keep Josh on the books unfortunately.

We also need to start transitioning West into the rotations, he'll leave if he doesn't get a promise of some midfield time.

[soupman]

Extra: this team needs more than a tweak. It’s needs leadership on field and it’s needs to be instilled with a TEAM FIRST mentality. Players need to be picked on merit. It can turn around. Look at Collingwood. They are playing as a TEAM. Question is, do we have the ability to turn our ego’s around. ? And how will the impact of losing “Dunkley, Williams, Hunter” have on the playing group if it eventuated ?

He's 31 years old and is yet another midfielder but would Liam Shiels be of any interest to us short term? He's used to working in midfields as the quality B grader that supports the others, is tough as hell, could provide some leadership and Hawthorn are trying to move to the next generation. If we are going all in one the next two years (Lobb and Jones both being old would indicate this) then could he help? (Obviously assuming we lose atleast Dunkley which opens a spot somewhere)

[GVGjr]

He's 31 years old and is yet another midfielder but would Liam Shiels be of any interest to us short term? He's used to working in midfields as the quality B grader that supports the others, is tough as hell, could provide some leadership and Hawthorn are trying to move to the next generation. If we are going all in one the next two years (Lobb and Jones both being old would indicate this) then could he help? (Obviously assuming we lose atleast Dunkley which opens a spot somewhere)

As a replacement for Dunkley he's a decent option and very much the role player you have highlighted. I'd be confident somewhat he would fit in.
In this instance though I think if we were to lose Dunkley we need to have a serious think if we need to re energize the group via the draft.

[Grantysghost]

I didn't. I was all in on him.

It was Happy Days that said he was old and slow.

I'm sure you said it in hexadecimal.

Damn.

Can't prove it.

[Happy Days]

Not that there’s any possible way to confirm this but pretty sure I said Libba was looking cool and young and definitely shouldn’t feel self conscious about other people he went to uni with achieving more than him given how still young and not finished he is.

[EasternWest]

He's 31 years old and is yet another midfielder but would Liam Shiels be of any interest to us short term? He's used to working in midfields as the quality B grader that supports the others, is tough as hell, could provide some leadership and Hawthorn are trying to move to the next generation. If we are going all in one the next two years (Lobb and Jones both being old would indicate this) then could he help? (Obviously assuming we lose atleast Dunkley which opens a spot somewhere)

Hell of a role playing midfielder, I rate him. But we should only chase him if we're in a "premiership window" and frankly I have my doubts.

Which is another reason why I'm cooling on both Lobb and Jones.


Not that there’s any possible way to confirm this but pretty sure I said Libba was looking cool and young and definitely shouldn’t feel self conscious about other people he went to uni with achieving more than him given how still young and not finished he is.

Damn I wish I was a narc.

[Sedat]

He's 31 years old and is yet another midfielder but would Liam Shiels be of any interest to us short term? He's used to working in midfields as the quality B grader that supports the others, is tough as hell, could provide some leadership and Hawthorn are trying to move to the next generation. If we are going all in one the next two years (Lobb and Jones both being old would indicate this) then could he help? (Obviously assuming we lose atleast Dunkley which opens a spot somewhere)
Toby McLean deserves first crack at this Geoege Hewitt style defensive mid role. I don't think we need to trade draft currency for anyone else. I also think we need to have some direct conversations with a couple of our star studded mids about adjusting their game to a more defensive mindset. If it is good enough for the likes of Cotchin and Pendlebury, some of our players can adjust for the betterment of the team.

[azabob]

Toby McLean deserves first crack at this Geoege Hewitt style defensive mid role. I don't think we need to trade draft currency for anyone else. I also think we need to have some direct conversations with a couple of our star studded mids about adjusting their game to a more defensive mindset. If it is good enough for the likes of Cotchin and Pendlebury, some of our players can adjust for the betterment of the team.

Surely the time for direct conversations with our star midfielders would’ve been over the pre season after they got pantsed in the GF 3rd quarter. Bit hard I guess if you believe the rumours said game was not reviewed, just moved on from.

[Sedat]

Surely the time for direct conversations with our star midfielders would’ve been over the pre season after they got pantsed in the GF 3rd quarter. Bit hard I guess if you believe the rumours said game was not reviewed, just moved on from.
Agree 100%, the sole ultimate reason we didn't win a flag in 2021 was directly a result of our star studded midfield group completely losing control and any semblance of defensive shape in 8 minutes of utter mayhem, so these conversarions absolutely should have happened 12 months ago. If those conversations are 12 months late, that is better than not having them at all.

It's unconscionable that the playing and coaching group didn't forensically examine the catastrophic failures of the last 38 minutes of the GF.

[bornadog]

It's unconscionable that the playing and coaching group didn't forensically examine the catastrophic failures of the last 38 minutes of the GF.

I think they would have and adjustments were made - our centre clearance work is the best in the AFL. What we are finding now is our defence is a major issue with a number of players not in form this year and the system is broken. I don't like having to rely on the mids to help the defence as it is very taxing on them.

[Grantysghost]

I think they would have and adjustments were made - our centre clearance work is the best in the AFL. What we are finding now is our defence is a major issue with a number of players not in form this year and the system is broken. I don't like having to rely on the mids to help the defence as it is very taxing on them.

How do you determine our centre clearance work is the best in the afl?

[azabob]

I think they would have and adjustments were made - our centre clearance work is the best in the AFL. What we are finding now is our defence is a major issue with a number of players not in form this year and the system is broken. I don't like having to rely on the mids to help the defence as it is very taxing on them.

Post clearance contest we are very average and we can’t defend without the football. The mids play a major part in this.

Either way Beveridge and co have a big off season.

[Grantysghost]

Post clearance contest we are very average and we can’t defend without the football. The mids play a major part in this.

Either way Beveridge and co have a big off season.

Be nice to have a more forensic breakdown of clearances too.

Freo mightve got less, but they were absolutely more effective.

Sheer numbers don't give the whole picture.

Hitouts/hitouts to advantage type scenario.

[bornadog]

How do you determine our centre clearance work is the best in the afl?

Ranked one

[bornadog]

Post clearance contest we are very average and we can’t defend without the football. The mids play a major part in this.

Either way Beveridge and co have a big off season.

Can't keep blaming the mids.

Our bottom 6 players are a real concern along with the backline. Too much is left to too few.

[Grantysghost]

Ranked one

Total clearances. Effective might be another more realistic determiner of "best".

It's like having the most shots at goal, missing a large percentage and claiming to be the best.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think they would have and adjustments were made - our centre clearance work is the best in the AFL. What we are finding now is our defence is a major issue with a number of players not in form this year and the system is broken. I don't like having to rely on the mids to help the defence as it is very taxing on them.

Is there any team that gives up more goals from Centre Clearance.

We are abominable when we don't get the clearance and mostly problematic when we do.

[bornadog]

Is there any team that gives up more goals from Centre Clearance.

We are abominable when we don't get the clearance and mostly problematic when we do.

The issue is defence

[DOG GOD]

He's 31 years old and is yet another midfielder but would Liam Shiels be of any interest to us short term? He's used to working in midfields as the quality B grader that supports the others, is tough as hell, could provide some leadership and Hawthorn are trying to move to the next generation. If we are going all in one the next two years (Lobb and Jones both being old would indicate this) then could he help? (Obviously assuming we lose atleast Dunkley which opens a spot somewhere)

I rate him, and would not be against getting him, but I also feel we have a similar type in McLean if he can be given a go. What I do like about Shiels is that he is willing to sacrifice his game for the better of the team. None of our current midfield crop are willing to do that.

[soupman]

I rate him, and would not be against getting him, but I also feel we have a similar type in McLean if he can be given a go. What I do like about Shiels is that he is willing to sacrifice his game for the better of the team. None of our current midfield crop are willing to do that.

I like McLean as well, but realistically outside of an unaccountable 2017 in there and a brief solid run in 2020 he has never been able to perform in a role as a midfielder that well, and is coming back off two knee recos, he's a long way from bankable.

Besides I think I'm hoping someone like Shiels adds more steel to our midfield accountability through his experience and influence he can have on others, something McLean doesn't have.

[DOG GOD]

I like McLean as well, but realistically outside of an unaccountable 2017 in there and a brief solid run in 2020 he has never been able to perform in a role as a midfielder that well, and is coming back off two knee recos, he's a long way from bankable.

Besides I think I'm hoping someone like Shiels adds more steel to our midfield accountability through his experience and influence he can have on others, something McLean doesn't have.

Totally, and I hope we make some tough calls regarding our midfield crop. We certainly need a player with strong nerve, leadership qualities and the experience to play a role we so desperately need.

[Bullies]

Surely the time for direct conversations with our star midfielders would’ve been over the pre season after they got pantsed in the GF 3rd quarter. Bit hard I guess if you believe the rumours said game was not reviewed, just moved on from. It wasn't a rumour the game was not reviewed the players said it wasn't. Dunks and Macrae have said so in a number of interviews.

Not making the finals will hopefully mean there will be a full review and a number of changes made.

[The bulldog tragician]

It wasn't a rumour the game was not reviewed the players said it wasn't. Dunks and Macrae have said so in a number of interviews.

Not making the finals will hopefully mean there will be a full review and a number of changes made.

In the Danny-Boyd podcast Tom mentioned that our 2015 finals loss was reviewed ad nauseum and specific adjustments were made, so I’m at a loss as to why we didn’t this time.

[azabob]

It wasn't a rumour the game was not reviewed the players said it wasn't. Dunks and Macrae have said so in a number of interviews.

Not making the finals will hopefully mean there will be a full review and a number of changes made.

I’d also heard those players say that and said as much and certain posters responded with something along the lines I’m sure the coaches did and worked on those areas during the pre season.

[bornadog]

I’d also heard those players say that and said as much and certain posters responded with something along the lines I’m sure the coaches did and worked on those areas during the pre season.

Tell me do you honestly think the coaches wouldn't do a review and come up with some strategies?

[GVGjr]

Tell me do you honestly think the coaches wouldn't do a review and come up with some strategies?

I think they would and the strategy behind not including the players might be to shield them for doubting their ability and decision making under pressure.
The question now is has that strategy of distancing the players and the strategies devised by the coaches from the GF experience actually worked?

[bornadog]

I think they would and the strategy behind not including the players might be to shield them for doubting their ability and decision making under pressure.
The question now is has that strategy of distancing the players and the strategies devised by the coaches from the GF experience actually worked?

I think you are spot on.

I have been thinking about our issues, and we know defence is really an issue, but the other big one is turnovers. Last week and this week, the turnovers killed us. Some of the shocking kicking coming out of defence resulted in multiple goals. Just the disposal efficiency all over shows how bad we are travelling when trying to move the ball forward.

[macca]

Totally, and I hope we make some tough calls regarding our midfield crop. We certainly need a player with strong nerve, leadership qualities and the experience to play a role we so desperately need.

If we finish 9-11 th position ( kinda ironic ) then we need to cut the list hard and start building the list with quality. We cannot hang on to list cloggers and players with deficiencies. Cannot end up like Richmond for a decade where they continued to threaten to finish 9th. We need to find player with good disposable ( like hawks do ) .

McComb: yes he can find the ball, but he can't kick.
McClean : love his speed and run, but he does not have the size or strength to match it against the opposition mids, Maybe as a tagger ?
Butler: why is he on the list ?
Roarke: we are not playing him this year.

I have no idea what we are going to do with Schache. Has all the attributes to become a decent AFL player, but just can't swallow angry pills.

Examples above these are just to name a few. Not single them out, as I love to have ALL and ANY of our players to become AFL grade, but realistically most won't make it.

[DOG GOD]

If we finish 9-11 th position ( kinda ironic ) then we need to cut the list hard and start building the list with quality. We cannot hang on to list cloggers and players with deficiencies. Cannot end up like Richmond for a decade where they continued to threaten to finish 9th. We need to find player with good disposable ( like hawks do ) .

McComb: yes he can find the ball, but he can't kick.
McClean : love his speed and run, but he does not have the size or strength to match it against the opposition mids, Maybe as a tagger ?
Butler: why is he on the list ?
Roarke: we are not playing him this year.

I have no idea what we are going to do with Schache. Has all the attributes to become a decent AFL player, but just can't swallow angry pills.

Examples above these are just to name a few. Not single them out, as I love to have ALL and ANY of our players to become AFL grade, but realistically most won't make it.

Agree Macca. I hope if we go to the draft, any mid types we go for are as natural footballers as they come….hard bodied, elite kicking, tackling machines. I don’t want to see any players that are bonafide list cloggers, with very suspect disposal.

[EasternWest]

Agree Macca. I hope if we go to the draft, any mid types we go for are as natural footballers as they come….hard bodied, elite kicking, tackling machines. I don’t want to see any players that are bonafide list cloggers, with very suspect disposal.

Yep. I'd hate to pick an athletic but raw kid at something like pick 43. That would never work out.

[Grantysghost]

Yep. I'd hate to pick an athletic but raw kid at something like pick 43. That would never work out.

Mark West was athletic?

[Dry Rot]

Re the discussion re Shiels. Can we find a tough nut small to mid sized defender nearing the end of their career and give them a couple of years?

[Sedat]

I think they would have and adjustments were made - our centre clearance work is the best in the AFL. What we are finding now is our defence is a major issue with a number of players not in form this year and the system is broken. I don't like having to rely on the mids to help the defence as it is very taxing on them.
Also known as all team defence. Some other clubs are pretty good at this, most of whom are in the top half of the ladder.

[bornadog]

Also known as all team defence. Some other clubs are pretty good at this, most of whom are in the top half of the ladder.

Have a look at their defenders and compare to ours

[soupman]

Re the discussion re Shiels. Can we find a tough nut small to mid sized defender nearing the end of their career and give them a couple of years?

Nic Haynes? He's 30, was pretty good, has lovely long locks and his eyes get watery when he looks at Bont.

Otherwise maybe Lachie Plowman, but I've never really rated him.

[EasternWest]

Mark West was athletic?

Those shoulders still upset me.

[Danjul]

If we finish 9-11 th position ( kinda ironic ) then we need to cut the list hard and start building the list with quality. We cannot hang on to list cloggers and players with deficiencies. Cannot end up like Richmond for a decade where they continued to threaten to finish 9th. We need to find player with good disposable ( like hawks do ) .

McComb: yes he can find the ball, but he can't kick.
McClean : love his speed and run, but he does not have the size or strength to match it against the opposition mids, Maybe as a tagger ?
Butler: why is he on the list ?
Roarke: we are not playing him this year.

I have no idea what we are going to do with Schache. Has all the attributes to become a decent AFL player, but just can't swallow angry pills.

Examples above these are just to name a few. Not single them out, as I love to have ALL and ANY of our players to become AFL grade, but realistically most won't make it.In the loss against Adelaide he played very well both back and forward. One of our better contributors- dropped from the 22 so he could not participate in the loss to Port who weren’t travelling well at the time.

After a match winning performance for Footscray he got back into the firsts. He got 4 games, in two of them he led the team in marks and played reasonably well in all. Now back at Footscray he has kicked 10 goals 4 in the last two weeks. With Bruce now having kicked 1 goal in the last four weeks I think we can assume that Schache won’t be able to break back into the Team.

Is it true another team is looking at him because he will be very cheap?

[whythelongface]

In the loss against Adelaide he played very well both back and forward. One of our better contributors- dropped from the 22 so he could not participate in the loss to Port who weren’t travelling well at the time.

After a match winning performance for Footscray he got back into the firsts. He got 4 games, in two of them he led the team in marks and played reasonably well in all. Now back at Footscray he has kicked 10 goals 4 in the last two weeks. With Bruce now having kicked 1 goal in the last four weeks I think we can assume that Schache won’t be able to break back into the Team.

Is it true another team is looking at him because he will be very cheap?

He will play next week

[Bulldog Revolution]

Those shoulders still upset me.

16 of the most promising games!

[Bulldog Revolution]

1. We just aren’t very good - and it hurts me to say it because I’d hoped we could turn it on when it mattered
2. Richards has really arrived as a player
3. So we aren’t very good and it’s not like we are missing a whole slew of senior players - a strong internal review and a massive summer is needed. There should be no sugar coating how wasted a year it has been. We need some real desperadoes in the side.

[MrMahatma]

The issue is defence

Do you mean defenders? Or defence in general?

Our mids continually allow clearances out the front of the square and so often at critical moments. We rarely exit out the front and are often getting clearances via hook kicks from the back of the square or being pushed wide.

And if we were so good at getting decent centre clearances, are the mids not also to blame for not hitting targets up fwd?

It just can’t be that the mids get a free pass cause of a few stats. They’re not working well enough together or for the team. I’m not saying they’re no good… but to use a stat to suggest they’re #1 is taking just a quantitative view of footy, and ignore the quality aspect.

[1eyedog]

No doubt our mids are looking at each other hoping someone else will do the heavy lifting at the moment.

[GVGjr]

Do you mean defenders? Or defence in general?

Our mids continually allow clearances out the front of the square and so often at critical moments. We rarely exit out the front and are often getting clearances via hook kicks from the back of the square or being pushed wide.

And if we were so good at getting decent centre clearances, are the mids not also to blame for not hitting targets up fwd?

It just can’t be that the mids get a free pass cause of a few stats. They’re not working well enough together or for the team. I’m not saying they’re no good… but to use a stat to suggest they’re #1 is taking just a quantitative view of footy, and ignore the quality aspect.

Good points.

All parts of the ground are linked and they must all make some sacrifices for the benefit of the team.
It's definitely not just on the back line and it doesn't matter what the stats say.
We play some attacking defenders in Dale, Daniel and Richards to get the ball moving forward. They're not just there to lock down on opponents because that's not necessarily good for the team. They'll get burned occasionally but that's the set-up.
We do this so that we can get the ball into our midfielders hands and then to the forward line quickly. It's on the midfield group to help the backs and forwards and it's on the forward line to ensure the ball just doesn't rebound out of there quickly when we aren't scoring and undo all the hard work done to get the ball there.

This is a huge change from footy over time and I sense we can look at stats in isolation and make assessments based on that but we need to understand that most back lines will get caught out more than they should if the mids and forwards aren't playing their roles well.

We now have attacking defenders and at times use defensive focused forwards which was unheard of years ago and finding the right balance for the benefit of the team is the challenge the coaches face. The mids need to be able to generate both an ability to not only get the ball into the forward line but also drop back and assist the defensive unit. The mids also need to contribute to scoring and we ask a lot of them.

Put 6 defensive minded and accountable players into the back line and the area will improve from a stat perspective but all it's effectively going to do is clog up the scoring chances for the forwards because the ball will take a lot longer to get there and the opposition will have the chance to flood back. You need a balance of attack and defense and be prepared to occasionally get stung.

When people say our back line is the problem I don't think it's 100% accurate. We might need to improve the quality of the group as we should all over the ground but it's partly by design because we are continually trying to start the drive forward from the back line to help the team score.

[Grantysghost]

Bevo loves that zone defence with quick rebounders so we can move it quickly on turnover, get it in and lock it in.

So defence to attack, that transition is a big part of our game plan. So no surprise Jones is a target to fit into that quick spoiling tall defender intercept role. I wonder if we are even looking at a bigger type defender.

The way we concede clean clearances at stoppages is a bigger problem for me, no defence can stop those.

[Danjul]

Good points.

All parts of the ground are linked and they must all make some sacrifices for the benefit of the team.
It's definitely not just on the back line and it doesn't matter what the stats say.
We play some attacking defenders in Dale, Daniel and Richards to get the ball moving forward. They're not just there to lock down on opponents because that's not necessarily good for the team.
We do this so that we can get the ball into our midfielders hands and then to the forward line quickly. It's on the midfield group to help the backs and forwards and it's on the forward line to ensure the ball just doesn't rebound out of there quickly when we aren't scoring and undo all the hard work done to get the ball there.

This is a huge change from footy over time and I sense we can look at stats in isolation and make assessments based on that but we need to understand that most back lines will get caught out more than they should if the mids and forwards aren't playing their roles well.

We now have attacking defenders and at times use defensive focused forwards which was unheard of years ago and finding the right balance for the benefit of the team is the challenge the coaches face. The mids need to be able to generate both an ability to not only get the ball into the forward line but also drop back and assist the defensive unit. The mids also need to contribute to scoring and we ask a lot of them.

Put 6 defensive minded and accountable players into the back line and the area will improve from a stat perspective but all it's effectively going to do is clog up the scoring chances for the forwards because the ball will take a lot longer to get there and the opposition will have the chance to flood back. You need a balance of attack and defense and be prepared to occasionally get stung.

When people say our back line is the problem I don't think it's 100% accurate. We might need to improve the quality of the group as we should all over the ground but it's partly by design because we are continually trying to start the drive forward from the back line to help the team score.
Only partly agree.

From where I was sitting on the wing it was obvious that Freo had a much easier time taking the ball slowly from end to end.

Our players were not close enough to put any pressure on the ball carrier, who kicked to teammates in the clear. When the uncontested mark was taken a forward ran 5-10 metres behind the mark giving the opposition player a bonus in distance and an easy chip kick to the next unmanned link in the chain. End result- an easy delivery into a very mobile forward fifty.

our defenders don’t get the easy mis-kicks coming in to defend.

The members around me were going ballistic calling out this loose style of play.

[Grantysghost]

Only partly agree.

From where I was sitting on the wing it was obvious that Freo had a much easier time taking the ball slowly from end to end.

Our players were not close enough to put any pressure on the ball carrier, who kicked to teammates in the clear. When the uncontested mark was taken a forward ran 5-10 metres behind the mark giving the opposition player a bonus in distance and an easy chip kick to the next unmanned link in the chain. End result- an easy delivery into a very mobile forward fifty.

our defenders don’t get the easy mis-kicks coming in to defend.

The members around me were going ballistic calling out this loose style of play.

The five metres back insanity had to be tightened up the way they were playing.

But most coaches believe in their system and their planning during the week and I almost feel like they’d rather lose the game than lose their system.

[bornadog]

The five metres back insanity had to be tightened up the way they were playing.

But most coaches believe in their system and their planning during the week and I almost feel like they’d rather lose the game than lose their system.

Very rarely does the 5 metres back make any difference. Just watch the player with the ball, they still kick it from the mark.

Freo play a possession type of style and are very patient in their ball movement. Once they find an out, they can take it quickly from one end to the other.

[Grantysghost]

Those shoulders still upset me.

How did he miss. HOW!?

[Grantysghost]

Very rarely does the 5 metres back make any difference. Just watch the player with the ball, they still kick it from the mark.

Freo play a possession type of style and are very patient in their ball movement. Once they find an out, they can take it quickly from one end to the other.

Pushing up hard to the mark forces the player back and consumes time and puts some doubt in their mind.

Watch the good teams, they do it.

[bornadog]

Pushing up hard to the mark forces the player back and consumes time and puts some doubt in their mind.

Watch the good teams, they do it.

No, the player just runs around the mark and you stand their like a dummy and can't do a thing. Worst rule ever.

PS: I notice alot of teams have now adopted the same strategy.

The only time I don't like it is close to the 50metre mark

[Grantysghost]

No, the player just runs around the mark and you stand their like a dummy and can't do a thing. Worst rule ever.

PS: I notice alot of teams have now adopted the same strategy.

The only time I don't like it is close to the 50metre mark

It's a terrible rule we can agree on that :)

[jeemak]

Pushing up hard to the mark forces the player back and consumes time and puts some doubt in their mind.

Watch the good teams, they do it.

Collingwood gives the five.

[DOG GOD]

Bevo loves that zone defence with quick rebounders so we can move it quickly on turnover, get it in and lock it in.

So defence to attack, that transition is a big part of our game plan. So no surprise Jones is a target to fit into that quick spoiling tall defender intercept role. I wonder if we are even looking at a bigger type defender.

The way we concede clean clearances at stoppages is a bigger problem for me, no defence can stop those.

I don’t go there often but someone on “the other forum” is saying the pick we get for Dunks and our 1st rounder to WC for Barrass. At 27 years old, that is a deal I’d do in a heartbeat.

[Happy Days]

I don’t go there often but someone on “the other forum” is saying the pick we get for Dunks and our 1st rounder to WC for Barrass. At 27 years old, that is a deal I’d do in a heartbeat.

Two first rounders for B Side McGovern? I wouldn’t trade him for Dunkley straight up.

[Grantysghost]

I don’t go there often but someone on “the other forum” is saying the pick we get for Dunks and our 1st rounder to WC for Barrass. At 27 years old, that is a deal I’d do in a heartbeat.

It seems mega overs.

I like Barrass he's a good player but not paying that.

[DOG GOD]

It seems mega overs.

I like Barrass he's a good player but not paying that.

Depends how desperate we are.
Imo, Keath will be VFL next year if he’s not retired
Cordy, and O’Brien …not best 22

If our backline is Jones, Gardner and Darcy then god help us.

We need a quality FB who can play on the big guys, and Barrass is one of those.

We may not have a choice than to pay overs, IF he is the type we require.

[GVGjr]

I don’t go there often but someone on “the other forum” is saying the pick we get for Dunks and our 1st rounder to WC for Barrass. At 27 years old, that is a deal I’d do in a heartbeat.

So two first round picks for Tom Barrass? That's a significant investment but he is contracted until the end of 2026.

[DOG GOD]

So two first round picks for Tom Barrass? That's a significant investment but he is contracted until the end of 2026.

Correct, and the reason for paying overs.

Look, Cordy is VFL standard, O’Brien isn’t playing on our fwds each week. We can’t rely on either on a weekly basis.

Jones will come in but is 30+
Gardner I don’t rate and never will.
Darcy is another 12 months away from decent game time.
Keath’s career is almost over and wouldn’t be surprised to see him retired.

We need height and players who can play on the Hawkins, McKay types.

Barrass is the ideal age bracket and can hold his own against those types.

If the MC see him as the ideal player we need for our backline going fwd, then sometimes you have to pay overs.

[1eyedog]

Very rarely does the 5 metres back make any difference. Just watch the player with the ball, they still kick it from the mark.

Freo play a possession type of style and are very patient in their ball movement. Once they find an out, they can take it quickly from one end to the other.

It just makes the opposition kick the ball rather than look for over the top link plays. The player on the mark can also defend 15 metres in front of the kicker. I can understand why it's being picked up.

[Grantysghost]

Collingwood gives the five.

Melbourne and Freo don't and they're the best defensive sides.

Ok, I've got two hills to defend now. I'm not sure I have the Schlieffen plan to draw on and I need to make peace on at least one front.

BUT I WON'T!

[Scorlibo]

I was strongly in favour of our manning the mark tactics, but given how poor our intercept game is it should come under scrutiny. Seems to me like the stand rule is not being officiated as strictly as it was at the start of the season. There was a moment against Geelong when Buku had the ball on the half back flank and Dangerfield was manning the mark. Buku dummied a handball and Danger clearly moved off the mark. A moment later he did release the handball, and Dangerfield made up significant ground on Daniel I think it was running past. So it seems like the umpires don't really care anymore if the player standing the mark moves as soon as the ball carrier moves, instead of when play on is called, and this limits the effectiveness of our tactics.

Our players seem to be instructed to go up to the mark to force them to move back, before conceding the '5' metres (usually turns out to be more like 15 metres I reckon), but our players don't always enact the first part I've noticed. When this happens, the opposition ball carrier still has forward momentum and can kick unimpeded from the mark. Perhaps something to look at tightening.

[bornadog]

I was strongly in favour of our manning the mark tactics, but given how poor our intercept game is it should come under scrutiny. Seems to me like the stand rule is not being officiated as strictly as it was at the start of the season. There was a moment against Geelong when Buku had the ball on the half back flank and Dangerfield was manning the mark. Buku dummied a handball and Danger clearly moved off the mark. A moment later he did release the handball, and Dangerfield made up significant ground on Daniel I think it was running past. So it seems like the umpires don't really care anymore if the player standing the mark moves as soon as the ball carrier moves, instead of when play on is called, and this limits the effectiveness of our tactics.

Our players seem to be instructed to go up to the mark to force them to move back, before conceding the '5' metres (usually turns out to be more like 15 metres I reckon), but our players don't always enact the first part I've noticed. When this happens, the opposition ball carrier still has forward momentum and can kick unimpeded from the mark. Perhaps something to look at tightening.

I don't think it is 5 metres, but looks more because almost everytime, the ball carrier just kicks from 5 metres back from the mark anyhow. They don't run forward over the mark. Standing still on the mark, is a joke and not what footy has been about for the last 150 years.

[SonofScray]

So two first round picks for Tom Barrass? That's a significant investment but he is contracted until the end of 2026.

I’d be looking to make that work, more palatable than Jones, despite the bigger investment.

[Boots]

I was strongly in favour of our manning the mark tactics, but given how poor our intercept game is it should come under scrutiny. Seems to me like the stand rule is not being officiated as strictly as it was at the start of the season. There was a moment against Geelong when Buku had the ball on the half back flank and Dangerfield was manning the mark. Buku dummied a handball and Danger clearly moved off the mark. A moment later he did release the handball, and Dangerfield made up significant ground on Daniel I think it was running past. So it seems like the umpires don't really care anymore if the player standing the mark moves as soon as the ball carrier moves, instead of when play on is called, and this limits the effectiveness of our tactics.

Our players seem to be instructed to go up to the mark to force them to move back, before conceding the '5' metres (usually turns out to be more like 15 metres I reckon), but our players don't always enact the first part I've noticed. When this happens, the opposition ball carrier still has forward momentum and can kick unimpeded from the mark. Perhaps something to look at tightening.

I think there's also a perverse thing going on where - because of our tactics all year - our guys either attract or actively invite umpire attention. They're always having to catch the umps' eyes and actively say 'I'm conceding the mark' and you can see the umps talk to them about it on occasion. We were the only team doing it for a while and I reckon that forced the umpires to come up with the 'outside 5' call.

Once the umps are looking at you, well, they don't stop. If they are looking somewhere else, well, you can get away with more.

[AshMac]

It just makes the opposition kick the ball rather than look for over the top link plays. The player on the mark can also defend 15 metres in front of the kicker. I can understand why it's being picked up.

Unless the player is within 70 from goal. In those instances it gives them a lot more space to kick it deep

[Bulldog Revolution]

Gardner I don’t rate and never will.


He’s still got some work to do but he’s become a pretty reliable and courageous defender this year and is one of the biggest improvers on the list. Feels harsh Dog God - I’d like to see you reserve a small space in your heart and mind for Gards to win you over.

[Bullies]

He’s still got some work to do but he’s become a pretty reliable and courageous defender this year and is one of the biggest improvers on the list. Feels harsh Dog God - I’d like to see you reserve a small space in your heart and mind for Gards to win you over. Agree with you on this. Gardner plays a negating role which is different to the role Jones/Barrass would play. He is very good at it as well. One of the first picked at the moment. Considering he has only played 40+ games he is coming along very well.