One way traffic

[Topdog]

It's been bugging me for a while our inability to stop other teams runs but never really saw it mentioned by the media. Decided today to look into it and the results shocked even me. Really tried to limit this to teams scoring 4+ goals without us kicking one but included some 5+ goals to 1. This season that occurred 19 times with 2 other shocking runs included. I'm also pretending the GF didnt happen last year.

Round 1 - Melbourne - 27 point run (29-2), 38 point run (40-2) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 2 - Carlton - 30 point run (37-7)
Round 3 - Sydney - none
Round 4 - Richmond - 23 point run (31-8) & 42 point run (47-5)
Round 5 - North Melbourn - 32 point run (32-0)
Round 6 - Adelaide - none
Round 7 - Essendon - none
Round 8 - Port Adelaide - 24 point run (24-0)
Round 9 - Collingwood - none
Round 10 - Gold Coast - none but outscored 39-14 at one point
Round 11 - West Coast - none
Round 12 - Geelong - 34 point run (38-4)
Round 14 - GWS - none
Round 15 - Hawthorn - 23 point run (30-7)
Round 16 - Brisbane - 57 point run (77-20) OR 39 (44-5)
Round 17 - Sydney - 34 point run (41-7) and 28 point run (40-12)
Round 18 - St Kilda - 28 point run (29-1)
Round 19 - Melbourne - 30 point run (30-0) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 20 - Geelong - 3rd qtr, 47 point loss (50-3)
Round 21 - Fremantle - 32 point run (39-7)
Round 22 - GWS - none
Round 23 - Hawthorn - 25 point run (25-0)
EF - Fremantle - 54 point turnaround (72-18)

Lack of on field leadership? No plan B? I dont know but something is seriously wrong in the kennel.

[mjp]

That's even worse than I thought.

[Grantysghost]

That's incredible, thanks so much for the analysis.

[Boots]

Despite my pessimistic tone in other threads, I'm oddly optimistic about this one. This set of figures shows it's not one player but a systemic problem, and the fact it's a "new" problem shows that we used to be able to stop it. Both of these point to the possibility that it can change back with a coaching tweak, or if something else 'clicks'.

I guess I'm more interested in where the problem came from? I reckon it's got a lot to do with our forward line - we've gone from an undersized forward line with masses of belief, craft and grunt to a very, very tall and inexperienced one with limited forward craft. Imagine all the positioning and running changes required to try and service them, and imagine what it does to a team that was already prone to letting the other team 'get out the back' due to the high forward press.

I have a gut feeling that if we fix the underperforming forward line this problem might go away because suddenly we'll have 'slack' to play with elsewhere on the ground.

[azabob]

How on earth did we actually win games?

Interestingly we lost the Adelaide game yet didn't concede a run of 4 goals+. Makes that loss even worse.

[bornadog]

Despite my pessimistic tone in other threads, I'm oddly optimistic about this one. This set of figures shows it's not one player but a systemic problem, and the fact it's a "new" problem shows that we used to be able to stop it. Both of these point to the possibility that it can change back with a coaching tweak, or if something else 'clicks'.

I guess I'm more interested in where the problem came from? I reckon it's got a lot to do with our forward line - we've gone from an undersized forward line with masses of belief, craft and grunt to a very, very tall and inexperienced one with limited forward craft. Imagine all the positioning and running changes required to try and service them, and imagine what it does to a team that was already prone to letting the other team 'get out the back' due to the high forward press.

I have a gut feeling that if we fix the underperforming forward line this problem might go away because suddenly we'll have 'slack' to play with elsewhere on the ground.

I have been thinking about this and was wondering have we gone too tall in the forward line??

[Mantis]

I would like to know if we make it a priority to scenario train what we do when teams get a run on.

As a mug punter in the crowd it looks like nothing much changes and we 'just go again', but when the groups get together after a goal are they actively looking to change anything to try and stop the momentum of the opposition?

A proper forensic review of the last 45min of the 2021 GF might have uncovered some leanings that could've helped us this year...but no we just sweep it under the carpet and say we were tired, had bad luck with travel, yadda, yadda, yadda and try to go again... but things got worse and here we are having had a pretty awful year and have to start the whole process from scratch.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I would like to know if we make it a priority to scenario train what we do when teams get a run on.

As a mug punter in the crowd it looks like nothing much changes and we 'just go again', but when the groups get together after a goal are they actively looking to change anything to try and stop the momentum of the opposition?

A proper forensic review of the last 45min of the 2021 GF might have uncovered some leanings that could've helped us this year...but no we just sweep it under the carpet and say we were tired, had bad luck with travel, yadda, yadda, yadda and try to go again... but things got worse and here we are having had a pretty awful year and have to start the whole process from scratch.

Not reviewing the GF is a diabolical mistake by Bevo and the coaching group / administration.

I mean, PG was having celebration viewing parties in March of 2017 to re-watch the GF so if it was good enough then, why not after a loss?

Not blaming PG mind you but I think it typified our approach to 2017, as did not reviewing the 2021 GF and our efforts in 2022.

The man is an icon of the club, but surely Grant comes under fire for some of this in the review.

[bornadog]

I would like to know if we make it a priority to scenario train what we do when teams get a run on.

As a mug punter in the crowd it looks like nothing much changes and we 'just go again', but when the groups get together after a goal are they actively looking to change anything to try and stop the momentum of the opposition?

A proper forensic review of the last 45min of the 2021 GF might have uncovered some leanings that could've helped us this year...but no we just sweep it under the carpet and say we were tired, had bad luck with travel, yadda, yadda, yadda and try to go again... but things got worse and here we are having had a pretty awful year and have to start the whole process from scratch.

Do you mean with the players? or just the coaches, because no doubt the coaches would have gone through it and tried to implement a plan.

The biggest issue with the GF was the centre bounce clearances which we didn't stop, however, in 2022 we were the number one CC team.

I know that wasn't the only issue, but shows we did address this glaring issue.

[Mantis]

Do you mean with the players? or just the coaches, because no doubt the coaches would have gone through it and tried to implement a plan.

The biggest issue with the GF was the centre bounce clearances which we didn't stop, however, in 2022 we were the number one CC team.

I know that wasn't the only issue, but shows we did address this glaring issue.

A whole club approach to the review... all key football staff (coaches & admin) and the players.

And it wasn't just the centre work stuff that failed, sure in the madness at the end of the 3rd qtr our centre square was diabolically bad, but there was plenty more that we got wrong on the day including the team we selected. We should've worked out what we got wrong and learnt from it.

[bornadog]

A whole club approach to the review... all key football staff (coaches & admin) and the players.

And it wasn't just the centre work stuff that failed, sure in the madness at the end of the 3rd qtr our centre square was diabolically bad, but there was plenty more that we got wrong on the day including the team we selected. We should've worked out what we got wrong and learnt from it.

I think it is debatable the players should have been involved in the review. Mentally they were shot in that GF and to bring it all up again, well I don't know whether that is a good idea.

[Sedat]

I'm just a mug punter but there seems to be 2 issues around our alarming trend of conceding multiple goals in a row and being completely unable to turn the tide.

1. Our mids are elite ball winnes and back themselves in to win the ball - they have to do it with a non-competitive stoppage ruckman, so they rightly have confidence in their ability to win clearance and contested ball. Unfortunately bees to the honeypot can be savagely punished at centre bounces in the 6-6-6 era - the last 8 mins of the 3rd qtr in last year's GF the most glaring example but this week was not far behind.

2. Our no 1 ruck is non-competitive at stoppages (centre clearance and boundary in particular) and cannot prevent his opposition counterpart from giving mids quality use at stoppages and clean looks inside their F50.

Maybe it is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Maybe we weren't proactive enough to properly adjust our game style to factor in the 6-6-6 rule change a couple of years ago.

The first point can be rectified with some personnel and structure changes in our mid group - Toby McLean and Jack Macrae as examples can be utilised as George Hewitt style defensive mids and positioned defensive side of stoppage to prevent oppo mids getting clean looks inside F50. McLean looks a natural in this role (he was fantastic early on the weekend and reminded us of how good a player he is) and Macrae could easily adjust and sacrifice his natural game and is very capable of doing this (Cotchin and Pendlebury have done so with great success).

The second point requires an honest assessment of English as a stoppage ruckman and how much it has hurt us in many games in the last 4 years. We have been exceedingly patient and given him ample time to develop his ruck stoppage craft. We have now conceded 27 goals to 3 in run-ons the last 2 finals, which is totally unacceptable and off the charts bad, and a large portion of this amazing stat has been clean opposition clearances from centre bounce and boundary throw-ins. Much of this can be sheeted home to English and his lack of competitiveness against the really good ruckmen in the comp. It's an uncomfortable truth but it is undeniable and has been for the last 4 seasons.

[Mantis]

I think it is debatable the players should have been involved in the review. Mentally they were shot in that GF and to bring it all up again, well I don't know whether that is a good idea.

I think that's a pretty lame excuse... sit down and watch it as a team, pick out the things we could've done better as individuals & as a team and we move on.

Every business I've been involved in investigates major incidents including workplace fatalities. It determines root causes, changes procedures & policies, assigns corrective actions and then communicates it's findings to the key stakeholders. That's what the corporate world does so why is a multi-million dollar footy club any different?

To think our players can't sit through a game of footy because they're mentally damaged is a rather piss poor excuse in the real world.

[MrMahatma]

I think that's a pretty lame excuse... sit down and watch it as a team, pick out the things we could've done better as individuals & as a team and we move on.

Every business I've been involved in investigates major incidents including workplace fatalities. It determines root causes, changes procedures & policies, assigns corrective actions and then communicates it's findings to the key stakeholders. That's what the corporate world does so why is a multi-million dollar footy club any different?

To think our players can't sit through a game of footy because they're mentally damaged is a rather piss poor excuse in the real world.

Gotta agree. I mean, the club has the same goal: win a flag. And it’s not about pointing fingers, particularly if the review is done once list changes are made. So if you’re watching it, you’re part of the future (at least to a degree). Surely players have lost sleep as individuals about how the match went down. Why not at least address it and show a way forward?

It surprised me when it was first mentioned in the off season that we hadn’t gone back and done it. It didn’t feel like the kind of thing our administration would sweep under the carpet.

How have Port looked to address their prelim failures and subsequent missing of finals?
Maybe there’s no “right” way, but the above list of run ons shows there’s something wrong and it hasn’t been fixed.

The fact we get leads shows we have talent. The fact we lose them… is that pointing to a lack of playing for one another? System? Individuals over team?

[Danjul]

I think it is debatable the players should have been involved in the review. Mentally they were shot in that GF and to bring it all up again, well I don't know whether that is a good idea.
Not sure about the mental bit. Yes they were shot but that was physical from the ordeal of getting to the GF. Incredible effort. They would have gone in on a mental high. They collapsed physically. And coming second carries no shame. I’m still on a high from it.

Their input would have been invaluable. They were the only ones who experienced the crash during the game and they should have been debriefed so the others had facts to process.

[bornadog]

Not sure about the mental bit. Yes they were shot but that was physical from the ordeal of getting to the GF. Incredible effort. They would have gone in on a mental high. They collapsed physically. And coming second carries no shame. I’m still on a high from it.

Their input would have been invaluable. They were the only ones who experienced the crash during the game and they should have been debriefed so the others had facts to process.

I have never been in a football club environment at any level, so I am only guessing. Would love to hear from those that have been?

[Sedat]

Not sure about the mental bit. Yes they were shot but that was physical from the ordeal of getting to the GF. Incredible effort. They would have gone in on a mental high. They collapsed physically. And coming second carries no shame. I’m still on a high from it.
Were they? We had the week off before the GF last year and similarly had the week off before the EF this year. On both occasons we didn't look the slightest bit fatigued immediately before the opposition onslaught began - Melbourne didn't even look like scoring before the floodgates opened in the 2021 GF and neither did Freo on the weekend until mid 2nd qtr.

This is 100% a structure/personnel/tactical issue, and it is now clearly also a mental issue. I'm not giving the club an out based on fatigue - if fatigue was an issue last year it would have been against Brisbane SF or Port PF, but we ran both those games out as well as our opponents. We erred badly not reviewing the GF 12 months ago, and in this game if you aren't prepared to learn lessons you get what you deserve. I hope we take due care to learn the lessons this off-season, and the words are enouraging around already discussing how we can get better post-game and also confirming a proper review of all operations will be conducted.

[Mofra]

How does that compare to other clubs?
If I was to guess, clubs outside the top 6 probably have the same issue and it separates also-rans (like us this year) with the contenders.

The rules committee would look at that and say "the 6-6-6 rule is working!"
The obvious lever to pull to stop that is now gone

[bornadog]

How does that compare to other clubs?
If I was to guess, clubs outside the top 6 probably have the same issue and it separates also-rans (like us this year) with the contenders.

The rules committee would look at that and say "the 6-6-6 rule is working!"
The obvious lever to pull to stop that is now gone

Even teams in the top 6 have runs of goals against them We did it to Melbourne in round 1 with 8 consecutive goals.

Why was 6-6-6 brought in? To score more and thrash teams? I don't understand what the issue was prior to it.

[Grantysghost]

How does that compare to other clubs?
If I was to guess, clubs outside the top 6 probably have the same issue and it separates also-rans (like us this year) with the contenders.

The rules committee would look at that and say "the 6-6-6 rule is working!"
The obvious lever to pull to stop that is now gone

The rules stifle innovation, it's infuriating.

I get we don't want a rolling maul, but if a coach wants to have 7 or 8 defenders and pull that lever, then it's a risk that they win the clearance and get scored against on the rebound.
It's an equation that balances itself you don't need stupid people telling smart people what they can and can't do.

As for stand.

Embarrassment.

The one that is rarely mentioned is the waltz to the centre to kick it out rule.

I remember seeing this for the first time live in the pre-season game 21 at Marvel v Melbourne.

May was running 20 and launching 50 to near the wing, all of us who were there noted it as a fundamental change to the game.

[Sedat]

How does that compare to other clubs?
If I was to guess, clubs outside the top 6 probably have the same issue and it separates also-rans (like us this year) with the contenders.

The rules committee would look at that and say "the 6-6-6 rule is working!"
The obvious lever to pull to stop that is now gone
If you have a high quality dominant stoppage ruckman (eg: Gawn/Jackson), you can afford to be ultra-assertive in the centre square like Melbourne are/were in 2021 GF. If you have a hard-arse physical/competitive beast as your ruckman (eg: Nank), you can ensure the opposition do not get clean looks in F50 and force them to get dirty ball out of the centre which plays into the turnover game, which is Richmond's specialty.

We aren't really in either camp - we obviously win our fair share of clearances but more often than not it is dirty ball which is susceptible to turnover off half-back, because our mids can never be assertive at stoppages due to our no.1 ruckman being neither a stoppage beast or a competitive/physical beast. English has obvious amazing assets (elite skills especially by foot and elite endurance) but they don't help us at all at stoppage against the best teams and in the big games, and certainly don't help in the 6-6-6 era. It makes him dominant against the slower, limited draught-horse ruckmen but a liability against the elite stoppage ruckmen and physical brutes.

[Topdog]

How does that compare to other clubs?
If I was to guess, clubs outside the top 6 probably have the same issue and it separates also-rans (like us this year) with the contenders.

The rules committee would look at that and say "the 6-6-6 rule is working!"
The obvious lever to pull to stop that is now gone

yeah I'm obviously not going to go through every team and do it but I do note that most afl media do comment on how big momentum is in the game these days.

I still feel like we do it worse than most.

Grabbed all this data from https://afltables.com/afl/teams/bullldogs/allgames.html

[Grantysghost]

If you have a high quality dominant stoppage ruckman (eg: Gawn/Jackson), you can afford to be ultra-assertive in the centre square like Melbourne are/were in 2021 GF. If you have a hard-arse physical/competitive beast as your ruckman (eg: Nank), you can ensure the opposition do not get clean looks in F50 and force them to get dirty ball out of the centre which plays into the turnover game, which is Richmond's specialty.

We aren't really in either camp - we obviously win our fair share of clearances but more often than not it is dirty ball which is susceptible to turnover off half-back, because our mids can never be assertive at stoppages due to our no.1 ruckman being neither a stoppage beast or a competitive/physical beast. English has obvious amazing assets (elite skills especially by foot and elite endurance) but they don't help us at all at stoppage against the best teams and in the big games, and certainly don't help in the 6-6-6 era. It makes him dominant against the slower, limited draught-horse ruckmen but a liability against the elite stoppage ruckmen and physical brutes.

Best post ever.

[bornadog]

The rules stifle innovation, it's infuriating.

I get we don't want a rolling maul, but if a coach wants to have 7 or 8 defenders and pull that lever, then it's a risk that they win the clearance and get scored against on the rebound.
It's an equation that balances itself you don't need stupid people telling smart people what they can and can't do.

As for stand.

Embarrassment.

The one that is rarely mentioned is the waltz to the centre to kick it out rule.

I remember seeing this for the first time live in the pre-season game 21 at Marvel v Melbourne.

May was running 20 and launching 50 to near the wing, all of us who were there noted it as a fundamental change to the game.

I really hate the Hocking rules that have basically changed the game of footy - not for better not for worse, just changed it and yes embarrassment

[Bullies]

I really hate the Hocking rules that have basically changed the game of footy - not for better not for worse, just changed it and yes embarrassment yet we just had the best weekend of finals ever. A lot like the rule so we need to get used to it.

[Danjul]

Were they?

This is 100% a structure/personnel/tactical issue, and it is now clearly also a mental issue. I'm not giving the club an out based on fatigue - if fatigue was an issue last year it would have been against Brisbane SF or Port PF, but we ran both those games out as well as our opponents.
Last year they played in Tasmania (cold and wet) then travelled multiple times , locked down Without full ability to train multiple times and their eventual opponent had a much easier couple of weeks (the advantage of a top four finish) and the selection committee caused that.

No comparison with this year. That’s why it was a great performance by the players.

This year was totally different circumstances. And the collapse was more significant and a sign of a serious problem.

[Danjul]

If you have a high quality dominant stoppage ruckman (eg: Gawn/Jackson), you can afford to be ultra-assertive in the centre square like Melbourne are/were in 2021 GF. If you have a hard-arse physical/competitive beast as your ruckman (eg: Nank), you can ensure the opposition do not get clean looks in F50 and force them to get dirty ball out of the centre which plays into the turnover game, which is Richmond's specialty.

We aren't really in either camp - we obviously win our fair share of clearances but more often than not it is dirty ball which is susceptible to turnover off half-back, because our mids can never be assertive at stoppages due to our no.1 ruckman being neither a stoppage beast or a competitive/physical beast. English has obvious amazing assets (elite skills especially by foot and elite endurance) but they don't help us at all at stoppage against the best teams and in the big games, and certainly don't help in the 6-6-6 era. It makes him dominant against the slower, limited draught-horse ruckmen but a liability against the elite stoppage ruckmen and physical brutes.
Excellent analysis of the problem and I like the fact that it is coupled with the insight into where the solution lies.

It also explains why Dunkley, Hannan, etc have magnified the ruck problem when dragged from their nAtural games.

[Grantysghost]

yet we just had the best weekend of finals ever. A lot like the rule so we need to get used to it.

Did we though?

Lions Tigers was like a good home and away game with 0 finals pressure those two teams are making up the numbers.

Demons Swans, again home and away pressure.

One good game really.

Don't believe the hype.

[Danjul]

Did we though?

Lions Tigers was like a good home and away game with 0 finals pressure those two teams are making up the numbers.

Demons Swans, again home and away pressure.

One good game really.

Don't believe the hype.

I watched the four games and really enjoyed three.

[soupman]

I watched the four games and really enjoyed three.

Yeah thought it was a pretty good week of footy.

[Grantysghost]

You're all slaves to the hype! XD

Cats Pies was a good finals game.

Actually the Ligers game was the higest scoring final since the Dogs v Crows in 2015.

Nostalgia - pump it into your veins.

[GVGjr]

Were they? We had the week off before the GF last year and similarly had the week off before the EF this year. On both occasons we didn't look the slightest bit fatigued immediately before the opposition onslaught began - Melbourne didn't even look like scoring before the floodgates opened in the 2021 GF and neither did Freo on the weekend until mid 2nd qtr.

This is 100% a structure/personnel/tactical issue, and it is now clearly also a mental issue. I'm not giving the club an out based on fatigue - if fatigue was an issue last year it would have been against Brisbane SF or Port PF, but we ran both those games out as well as our opponents. We erred badly not reviewing the GF 12 months ago, and in this game if you aren't prepared to learn lessons you get what you deserve. I hope we take due care to learn the lessons this off-season, and the words are enouraging around already discussing how we can get better post-game and also confirming a proper review of all operations will be conducted.

It's the easy option for some to consider rather than explore the real reasons behind inconsistent performances.
From a physical perspective we didn't look flat until Melbourne got the run on and we couldn't go with them.
From a MH perspective it didn't look like we had any challenges there.
We can trust the club to have made what they believe to be the right call on not watching the GF replay as a group but 12 months later after coughing up a significant lead it just looks like a missed opportunity.

[Grantysghost]

It's the easy option for some to consider rather than explore the real reasons behind inconsistent performances.
From a physical perspective we didn't look flat until Melbourne got the run on and we couldn't go with them.
From a MH perspective it didn't look like we had any challenges there.
We can trust the club to have made what they believe to be the right call on not watching the GF replay as a group but 12 months later after coughing up a significant lead it just looks like a missed opportunity.

It was an out of the ordinary month of travel though I think we can acknowledge that.

As soon as they printed those path to glory t-shirts we'd lost.

[GVGjr]

It was an out of the ordinary month of travel though I think we can acknowledge that.

As soon as they printed those path to glory t-shirts we'd lost.

Tough no doubt but we were in a winning position and couldn't lock the ball down when the other guys lifted.

[boydogs]

So 15 out of 23 games we gave up 4+ goal runs, but we still won 5 of them - we must have gone on some decent runs ourselves

[AshMac]

Gosh that’s a confronting read - brutal season.

Something stinks down at the club no doubt but I still think we have way too many established “premium mids” and not enough premiums in key positions. Despite this other teams seem to dominate the middle when it matters

[Topdog]

Gosh that’s a confronting read - brutal season.

Something stinks down at the club no doubt but I still think we have way too many established “premium mids” and not enough premiums in key positions. Despite this other teams seem to dominate the middle when it matters

It wasnt something I had thought about too much previously but honestly think Sedat's post linked below very much hits the nail on the head.

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?22059-One-way-traffic&p=806103#post806103

[Sedat]

Doing a deeper dive into our last 3 finals losses, all of them can be referenced back to our failures at stoppage/clearances in key moments. We were obliterated in this area on the weekend by Freo for 2.5 qtrs, and likewise by the Demons for 1.5 qtrs in the 2021 GF. Prior to that, Paddy Ryder put it on a silver platter for the St Kilda mids in the 2020 EF, that we ultimately lost by less than a kick after conceding 4 costly goals directly from clean clearances in a low scoring game.

I don't want us tinkering around the edges this off-season. I hope we are courageous enough to have a proper review and rectify a critical and obvious area of weakness, one that has already been clinically exploited by opposition in the games that truly matter. Is there much point smashing weaker opposition in clearances/stoppages in H&A and repeatedly coming up short in the same area in finals?

Geelong will be an interesting watch in the PF. Will they pull the trigger on the tougher more bash and crash type in Ceglar, or will they keep the faith with the more athletic Stanley, who was really poor on Saturday? Geelong have cost themselves premierships the last few years not adequately addressing their ruck/stoppage situation, opting for the Stanley/Esava/Blicavs athletic types. It seems we have done the same in the last few seasons.

[KT31]

It's been bugging me for a while our inability to stop other teams runs but never really saw it mentioned by the media. Decided today to look into it and the results shocked even me. Really tried to limit this to teams scoring 4+ goals without us kicking one but included some 5+ goals to 1. This season that occurred 19 times with 2 other shocking runs included. I'm also pretending the GF didnt happen last year.

Round 1 - Melbourne - 27 point run (29-2), 38 point run (40-2) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 2 - Carlton - 30 point run (37-7)
Round 3 - Sydney - none
Round 4 - Richmond - 23 point run (31-8) & 42 point run (47-5)
Round 5 - North Melbourn - 32 point run (32-0)
Round 6 - Adelaide - none
Round 7 - Essendon - none
Round 8 - Port Adelaide - 24 point run (24-0)
Round 9 - Collingwood - none
Round 10 - Gold Coast - none but outscored 39-14 at one point
Round 11 - West Coast - none
Round 12 - Geelong - 34 point run (38-4)
Round 14 - GWS - none
Round 15 - Hawthorn - 23 point run (30-7)
Round 16 - Brisbane - 57 point run (77-20) OR 39 (44-5)
Round 17 - Sydney - 34 point run (41-7) and 28 point run (40-12)
Round 18 - St Kilda - 28 point run (29-1)
Round 19 - Melbourne - 30 point run (30-0) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 20 - Geelong - 3rd qtr, 47 point loss (50-3)
Round 21 - Fremantle - 32 point run (39-7)
Round 22 - GWS - none
Round 23 - Hawthorn - 25 point run (25-0)
EF - Fremantle - 54 point turnaround (72-18)

Lack of on field leadership? No plan B? I dont know but something is seriously wrong in the kennel.

I new it was bad, now I actually see it in writing it is deplorable.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Doing a deeper dive into our last 3 finals losses, all of them can be referenced back to our failures at stoppage/clearances in key moments. We were obliterated in this area on the weekend by Freo for 2.5 qtrs, and likewise by the Demons for 1.5 qtrs in the 2021 GF. Prior to that, Paddy Ryder put it on a silver platter for the St Kilda mids in the 2020 EF, that we ultimately lost by less than a kick after conceding 4 costly goals directly from clean stoppages in a low scoring game.

I don't want us tinkering around the edges this off-season. I hope we are courageous enough to have a proper review and rectify a critical and obvious area of weakness, one that has already been clinically exploited by opposition in the games that truly matter. Is there much point smashing weaker opposition in clearances/stoppages in H&A and repeatedly coming up short in the same area in finals?

Geelong will be an interesting watch in the PF. Will they pull the trigger on the tougher more bash and crash type in Ceglar, or will they keep the faith with the more athletic Stanley, who was really poor on Saturday? Geelong have cost themselves premierships the last few years not adequately addressing their ruck/stoppage situation, opting for the Stanley/Esava/Blicavs athletic types. It seems we have done the same in the last few seasons.

We were really bemoaning the EF loss to St. Kilda where English was absolutely torched. Not a lot has changed since, except the (false) narrative that English is a great ruck. He isn't.

Sedat, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what we should do this off-season. If you've got time, would love to see a post relating to it.

[SonofScray]

10 minutes of good footy can undo 1/2 hr of our best footy.

[F'scary]

I have been thinking about this and was wondering have we gone too tall in the forward line??

I like this theory, I say yes. Add to that forwards who only pretend to chase and tackle. Big contrast between the current lot and Tory, Clay, Dahl and Picken.

[merantau]

How many times can I re-call English delivering, at the centre bounce, a clean tap to one of our mids who then runs into space? Not many. Same for stoppages and throw ins.

In fact throw ins are Tim's Achilles Heel, IMO. He gives up front position too easily, he gets pushed around too easily. Further, I often see him mis-timing his leap. How many times have you seen him grab the ballout of a ruck contest and shoot off a handball? My guess is not many.
To sum up. He has elite ground ball skills, agility, pace, endurance and can take a contested mark. Is he a ruckman? Or is he a Clayton's? I have not seen his game progress very much in the last two seasons. Concussions haven't helped. We need a No.1 ruck. Tim is a forward/2nd ruck. That's the reality for me.

[G-Mo77]

It's been bugging me for a while our inability to stop other teams runs but never really saw it mentioned by the media. Decided today to look into it and the results shocked even me. Really tried to limit this to teams scoring 4+ goals without us kicking one but included some 5+ goals to 1. This season that occurred 19 times with 2 other shocking runs included. I'm also pretending the GF didnt happen last year.

Round 1 - Melbourne - 27 point run (29-2), 38 point run (40-2) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 2 - Carlton - 30 point run (37-7)
Round 3 - Sydney - none
Round 4 - Richmond - 23 point run (31-8) & 42 point run (47-5)
Round 5 - North Melbourn - 32 point run (32-0)
Round 6 - Adelaide - none
Round 7 - Essendon - none
Round 8 - Port Adelaide - 24 point run (24-0)
Round 9 - Collingwood - none
Round 10 - Gold Coast - none but outscored 39-14 at one point
Round 11 - West Coast - none
Round 12 - Geelong - 34 point run (38-4)
Round 14 - GWS - none
Round 15 - Hawthorn - 23 point run (30-7)
Round 16 - Brisbane - 57 point run (77-20) OR 39 (44-5)
Round 17 - Sydney - 34 point run (41-7) and 28 point run (40-12)
Round 18 - St Kilda - 28 point run (29-1)
Round 19 - Melbourne - 30 point run (30-0) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 20 - Geelong - 3rd qtr, 47 point loss (50-3)
Round 21 - Fremantle - 32 point run (39-7)
Round 22 - GWS - none
Round 23 - Hawthorn - 25 point run (25-0)
EF - Fremantle - 54 point turnaround (72-18)

Lack of on field leadership? No plan B? I dont know but something is seriously wrong in the kennel.

This is some really fantastic research TD. Thank you so much for posting!

Even though it's horrible reading.

[jeemak]

I think that's a pretty lame excuse... sit down and watch it as a team, pick out the things we could've done better as individuals & as a team and we move on.

Every business I've been involved in investigates major incidents including workplace fatalities. It determines root causes, changes procedures & policies, assigns corrective actions and then communicates it's findings to the key stakeholders. That's what the corporate world does so why is a multi-million dollar footy club any different?

To think our players can't sit through a game of footy because they're mentally damaged is a rather piss poor excuse in the real world.

I understand the logic behind the comparison, but you don't make the employees involved in the fatal accident watch the accident to learn from it, right?

And I get that we're talking about a game of footy, and not a work place fatality etc., but I have very little doubt that the fatigue physically and mentally after the final five weeks of our season last year would have been substantial and the decision to avoid the players watching the game would have been a considered one.

Whether that's right or wrong I don't know, but again, I don't think it would have been a decision made lightly.

[jeemak]

Were they? We had the week off before the GF last year and similarly had the week off before the EF this year. On both occasons we didn't look the slightest bit fatigued immediately before the opposition onslaught began - Melbourne didn't even look like scoring before the floodgates opened in the 2021 GF and neither did Freo on the weekend until mid 2nd qtr.

This is 100% a structure/personnel/tactical issue, and it is now clearly also a mental issue. I'm not giving the club an out based on fatigue - if fatigue was an issue last year it would have been against Brisbane SF or Port PF, but we ran both those games out as well as our opponents. We erred badly not reviewing the GF 12 months ago, and in this game if you aren't prepared to learn lessons you get what you deserve. I hope we take due care to learn the lessons this off-season, and the words are enouraging around already discussing how we can get better post-game and also confirming a proper review of all operations will be conducted.

Melbourne clearly went up a gear and we couldn't cover it, and that's not just in the centre which to me is actually the easiest part to cover if fatigued (and we failed due to a lack of awareness/ system/ accountability - you name it). Additionally, our poor start to the game meant that we had to spend a lot of chips to get the ascendency that we did.

All that aside, if you're going to put a plan in place to make sure the mistakes aren't repeated and that plan doesn't involve subjecting the players to the trauma of it, then you need to get it right and you need to invoke change from that plan. We clearly didn't do that, and I think it's the executional and training elements we need to focus on this time around because ultimately that's what's failed us.

[jeemak]

Great thread Topdog and awesome responses here. Peak WOOF.

[Mantis]

I understand the logic behind the comparison, but you don't make the employees involved in the fatal accident watch the accident to learn from it, right?

And I get that we're talking about a game of footy, and not a work place fatality etc., but I have very little doubt that the fatigue physically and mentally after the final five weeks of our season last year would have been substantial and the decision to avoid the players watching the game would have been a considered one.

Whether that's right or wrong I don't know, but again, I don't think it would have been a decision made lightly.

You don’t have to watch vision of the incident (if it exists) as businesses aren’t *!*!*!*!ing sadistic, but there is always photos of the scene and some sort of re-creation of the event to assist with the investigation.

And it may not mean a full game review, maybe just key points or passages of play, but at least don’t sweep it under the carpet… Bevo says the GF may have resulted in some mental scars which haven’t healed.. how would they know if they didn’t discuss it?

[Topdog]

Hello darkness my old friend

[JanLorMill]

Hello darkness my old friend
Yes and this one
https://youtu.be/JWnUItw1ElU

[azabob]

***bump*** of the worst kind.

[Bulldog4life]

It's been bugging me for a while our inability to stop other teams runs but never really saw it mentioned by the media. Decided today to look into it and the results shocked even me. Really tried to limit this to teams scoring 4+ goals without us kicking one but included some 5+ goals to 1. This season that occurred 19 times with 2 other shocking runs included. I'm also pretending the GF didnt happen last year.

Round 1 - Melbourne - 27 point run (29-2), 38 point run (40-2) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 2 - Carlton - 30 point run (37-7)
Round 3 - Sydney - none
Round 4 - Richmond - 23 point run (31-8) & 42 point run (47-5)
Round 5 - North Melbourn - 32 point run (32-0)
Round 6 - Adelaide - none
Round 7 - Essendon - none
Round 8 - Port Adelaide - 24 point run (24-0)
Round 9 - Collingwood - none
Round 10 - Gold Coast - none but outscored 39-14 at one point
Round 11 - West Coast - none
Round 12 - Geelong - 34 point run (38-4)
Round 14 - GWS - none
Round 15 - Hawthorn - 23 point run (30-7)
Round 16 - Brisbane - 57 point run (77-20) OR 39 (44-5)
Round 17 - Sydney - 34 point run (41-7) and 28 point run (40-12)
Round 18 - St Kilda - 28 point run (29-1)
Round 19 - Melbourne - 30 point run (30-0) and 24 point run (24-0)
Round 20 - Geelong - 3rd qtr, 47 point loss (50-3)
Round 21 - Fremantle - 32 point run (39-7)
Round 22 - GWS - none
Round 23 - Hawthorn - 25 point run (25-0)
EF - Fremantle - 54 point turnaround (72-18)

Lack of on field leadership? No plan B? I dont know but something is seriously wrong in the kennel.

We bloody won

[MrMahatma]

We bloody won

And we bloody gave up 8 on the trot!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

***bump*** of the worst kind.

That is just as a sickening list.

[Eastdog]

Just happy to have wrestled back the lead and won. Still is an issue when the momentum is against us after a great start.