What does an aggressive trade period look like to you?

[Scraggers]

Over the last couple of years I have been of the belief that we only needed to tweak our playing list; get a back up ruck or maybe one key defender. I have always believed in the romance of footy; the father/sons should be kept as well as our only Norm Smith medallist. After our last two seasons and the peripheral players we have, I am no longer of this opinion. I feel we need to be aggressive this trade period or shut the window and be happy with the 2016 GF win. The time is now !!

So this is what I would consider ...
JJ out - (GC apparently) - second round pick for him
Hunter out - TWWCG (take what we can get)
Martin - Delisted
Crozier - TWWCG/Delisted
Cordy - TWWCG
Bruce - TWWCG
Vandermeer - Actively shopped around
Keath - Actively shopped around
Dunkley - Seems he is set to leave for a first round pick from Port (although I'd prefer he stay)
McComb - just because :p

And one of Weightman or Khamis ... both would state their cases on why they should be kept but if I'm being aggressive ...


I would use the picks and 'cap space' we get to GO HARD and aggressively make a play for ...
1. Brody Grundy (he would be my first choice in any scenario) - Collingwood (ruck)
2. Sam Taylor - GWS (key defender)
3. Harris Andrews - Brisbane (key defender)
4. Ben McKay - North Melbourne (key defender)
5. Jarrod Witts - Gold Coast (ruck)

So ... these are my musings; what would you do?

[MrMahatma]

Is that aggressive enough to be called aggresive?

I’d say it’d be more like:

EG: We want Grundy, Barass, Jnr Rioli, Lobb.

We give up our first rounder, Dunkley, next year’s first, and prob 1 or 2 other best 22. Give quality to get quality. EG: Caleb or Dale. Weightman as you say. Moving on fridge players wouldn’t be aggressive. I’m not suggesting we do get rid of best 22 players, but… if we don’t give up quality we won’t get it. And if we want to fill list needs with quality replacements, it’s gonna hurt and also, be a bit of a gamble. Chips in.

We won’t do that. We’ll get Lobb and Jones. Get picks for Dunks and JJ and draft. And… well… hope.

[hujsh]

The tide sure has turned on Weightman quickly. One of the top scoring general forwards in the game, has the best accuracy of any non key forward with more than 35 goals (Mitch Lewis and just barely Lynch beat him out) , is our most accurate and second most prolific goal scorer this year, 2nd for average pressure acts among our forwards (I know it's a meme but what else to do have to quantify forward half pressure), 4th for average tackles inside 50 and 4th in the team for average ground ball gets inside 50 (I dunno how else to quantify crumbing).

So what's the pitch there? Sell the only natural non-tall forward we have and just play McNeil more or something? He goes for marks and that can be annoying sometimes when he makes the wrong call but is that such a crime that we don't want to play with him anymore? Far as we know he's encouraged to do that anyway.



TLDR; Leave him alone. I like him.

[Happy Days]

Weightman dislocated his damn elbow in game and played the rest of the season through it (hurting it at least one other time). That’s a big deal!

If he got surgery on it (like I assume he’s gonna do this off season) and missed the time he gutted out then we’re probably all glowing over him. Trading him is insane.

[bornadog]

The tide sure has turned on Weightman quickly. One of the top scoring general forwards in the game, has the best accuracy of any non key forward with more than 35 goals (Mitch Lewis and just barely Lynch beat him out) , is our most accurate and second most prolific goal scorer this year, 2nd for average pressure acts among our forwards (I know it's a meme but what else to do have to quantify forward half pressure), 4th for average tackles inside 50 and 4th in the team for average ground ball gets inside 50 (I dunno how else to quantify crumbing).

So what's the pitch there? Sell the only natural non-tall forward we have and just play McNeil more or something? He goes for marks and that can be annoying sometimes when he makes the wrong call but is that such a crime that we don't want to play with him anymore? Far as we know he's encouraged to do that anyway.

TLDR; Leave him alone. I like him.

Well said hujsh, I honestly don't get the bagging of him. Sure he has weaknesses, don't all players. He is a proven goal kicker.

[bornadog]

So this is what I would consider ...
JJ out - (GC apparently) - second round pick for him
Hunter out - TWWCG (take what we can get)
Martin - Delisted
Crozier - TWWCG/Delisted
Cordy - TWWCG
Bruce - TWWCG
Vandermeer - Actively shopped around
Keath - Actively shopped around
Dunkley - Seems he is set to leave for a first round pick from Port (although I'd prefer he stay)
McComb - just because :p

And one of Weightman or Khamis ... both would state their cases on why they should be kept but if I'm being aggressive ...



this would cost the club a fortune as there are contracts in place for Crozier, Hunter, Bruce, VDM, Keath and McComb

[GVGjr]

We shouldn't need to be aggressive and when that happens it's typically because the previous plan or the execution of that plan was flawed to begin with and now it needs a more assertive response.

The 4 P's apply

We need to be professional this year and not hold a lot on sentiment in our decision making. I'll go through the players in the opening post.

Johannisen to GC makes a bit of sense and it would be a nice reward for him to get a 3 year deal.
We would probably get a 2nd or 3rd round compensation pick for him as well which looks like a win win.

Hunter has been a very good player for us and a popular team mate for so many. He has two more years on a contract but if he wants to go then if we were to get a 3rd rounder for him I'd do it because it would free up a lot of money.

Martin will retire.

Crozier is very much like Hunter, he was a solid player for us and we struck an overly generous contract and I'd be happy with a swap of picks if he could find another club. We should be proactive in helping him find another home.

Cordy has done pretty well but is limited. If we have offered him another contract then that isn't then end of the world but he is very much a back-up option.

Bruce will be fine and I'm confident he will get back into reasonable form but probably shouldn't be an automatic selection.

Vandermeer needs some more time. He's worth keeping but should not be regarded as one of Bevo's shiny toys for next season.

Keath is a keeper if he doesn't retire.

Dunkley if he goes should net us a 1st and 3rd rounder or something creative in terms of a pick swap.
I want to keep him but we will know soon enough.

We could package up a few 3rd rounders and have a talk to the Lions to see what we can do to help them land Ashcroft and Fletcher we might be able to turn that into a later first rounder.

Other players to consider

Schache is a player I really don't want to lose because he might even be at a stage where his best football is in front of him.
Losing a talented player like Schache and keeping Cordy is a bit hard to fathom from my perspective.

West is another player we should do our best to keep. His best football is clearly in front of him.

[Scraggers]

The tide sure has turned on Weightman quickly. One of the top scoring general forwards in the game, has the best accuracy of any non key forward with more than 35 goals (Mitch Lewis and just barely Lynch beat him out) , is our most accurate and second most prolific goal scorer this year, 2nd for average pressure acts among our forwards (I know it's a meme but what else to do have to quantify forward half pressure), 4th for average tackles inside 50 and 4th in the team for average ground ball gets inside 50 (I dunno how else to quantify crumbing).

So what's the pitch there? Sell the only natural non-tall forward we have and just play McNeil more or something? He goes for marks and that can be annoying sometimes when he makes the wrong call but is that such a crime that we don't want to play with him anymore? Far as we know he's encouraged to do that anyway.



TLDR; Leave him alone. I like him.

Don't get me wrong, he is close to my favourite player. I love what he does in and around the goals and he is stupidly courageous but am I willing to sell the farm to get my hands on the Cup one/two more times ... absolutely

[DOG GOD]

What I think…

We will get Lobb, and Jones
Take our first rounders to the draft
And do squat all else unfortunately.

Webb and Spangher will also probably keep their places.

I honestly don’t think we have the balls to make the decisions required.

[Scraggers]

What I think…

We will get Lobb, and Jones
Take our first rounders to the draft
And do squat all else unfortunately.

Webb and Spangher will also probably keep their places.

I honestly don’t think we have the balls to make the decisions required.


This is my biggest fear ... we are accepting mediocrity and hoping all others fall around us. Our window is open (just) we need to grab it with both hands; make it a dynasty not a flash in the pan

[F'scary]

Existing contracts: I don't think we could afford the cap impacts and cashflow issues stemming from breaking them. That's being too aggressive.

On the other hand, there are so many list cloggers on our roster, I can't believe it when I look. McComb, McNeil, Hannan, Scott, Vandermeer. What happened there? Then there are the guys we have carried into the geriatric stage due to overly generous contracts: Crozier, Keath, Bruce.

So, it looks to me that next year is going to be the year of the purgative. 8 to 10 delisted/retired. The fact that it will be so many after this year's anticipated 6-8 player cull or loss, says that our list management has been poor.

Much of our recruitment is kind of like Hayes had a McComb-over.

[bornadog]

Existing contracts: I don't think we could afford the cap impacts and cashflow issues stemming from breaking them. That's being too aggressive.

On the other hand, there are so many list cloggers on our roster, I can't believe it when I look. McComb, McNeil, Hannan, Scott, Vandermeer. What happened there? Then there are the guys we have carried into the geriatric stage due to overly generous contracts: Crozier, Keath, Bruce.

So, it looks to me that next year is going to be the year of the purgative. 8 to 10 delisted/retired. The fact that it will be so many after this year's anticipated 6-8 player cull or loss, says that our list management has been poor.

Much of our recruitment is kind of like Hayes had a McComb-over.

I don't agree McNeil and Scott are list cloggers. Scott is very impressive and McNeil is a young player who has really showed something and is still developing.

VDM showed some genuine ability until he came down with two lots of hamstrings.

Bruce kicked 48 goals last year and then came down with an ACL and Keath has been a great pickup, but again his body let him down this year.

I still don't get the Hannan trade.

[F'scary]

I don't agree McNeil and Scott are list cloggers. Scott is very impressive and McNeil is a young player who has really showed something and is still developing.

VDM showed some genuine ability until he came down with two lots of hamstrings.

Bruce kicked 48 goals last year and then came down with an ACL and Keath has been a great pickup, but again his body let him down this year.

I still don't get the Hannan trade.

Sounds like we agree on Hannan at least.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't agree McNeil and Scott are list cloggers. Scott is very impressive and McNeil is a young player who has really showed something and is still developing.

VDM showed some genuine ability until he came down with two lots of hamstrings.

Bruce kicked 48 goals last year and then came down with an ACL and Keath has been a great pickup, but again his body let him down this year.

I still don't get the Hannan trade.

I really don't get it with McNeil. He's not quick, he's unskilled, we should be able to find better.

VDM has never shown anything as a forward either.

[mjp]

JJ out - (GC apparently) - second round pick for him
Hunter out - TWWCG (take what we can get)
Martin - Delisted
Crozier - TWWCG/Delisted
Cordy - TWWCG
Bruce - TWWCG
Vandermeer - Actively shopped around
Keath - Actively shopped around
Dunkley - Seems he is set to leave for a first round pick from Port (although I'd prefer he stay)
McComb - just because :p

And one of Weightman or Khamis ... both would state their cases on why they should be kept but if I'm being aggressive ...


This just feels like we are talking about tearing apart the fabric of the club.

Sure - JJ gets 3x years and I'm happy for him. Martin retires.

Hunter needs to be rehabilitated whatever that looks like. Sounds like he needs support not to be kicked to the curb.

I am in the minority I guess but I hope Cordy re-signs for 2-years.

[hujsh]

Don't get me wrong, he is close to my favourite player. I love what he does in and around the goals and he is stupidly courageous but am I willing to sell the farm to get my hands on the Cup one/two more times ... absolutely

Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree he's the type we sell unless we have a replacement lined up as good as him (in our structure)

[soupman]

I am in the minority I guess but I hope Cordy re-signs for 2-years.

I'm not against keeping him but he was stuck in the wilderness for half the season and surely isn't in our best 22 calculations with the arrival of Jones, who isn't even that good.

If he does re-sign I think that is a very bad sign that we have been unable to make any of our key defensive targets stick, and while I am sure he's a good bloke and part of the fabric not sure we need to give a likely fringe player 2 years when we already have guys like Crozier, O'Brien and Hannan as excellent examples of how to fill up your list spots for little return. I mean it isn't like we are having to fight off other clubs 2 year offers to keep him...surely?

[soupman]

Don't get me wrong, he is close to my favourite player. I love what he does in and around the goals and he is stupidly courageous but am I willing to sell the farm to get my hands on the Cup one/two more times ... absolutely

I just don't think selling Weightman makes us better. He is one of the few natural forwards on our list, and anyone we can attract to replace him I can't see being prevented from doing so because he is at the club.

Also unfortunately unless a club is actively trying to poach a player (and even then it's hard to get value) it's pretty hard to make a player available and not tank their value.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I am in the minority I guess but I hope Cordy re-signs for 2-years.

Respectfully, why mjp?

If it is as depth, I can sort of understand it ... But assuming we trade in Lobb there's zero chance he plays ahead of Naughton, Lobb, Marra, Bruce and possibly Darcy.

There should also be slim chances of him getting picked ahead of Keath, Gardy, Jones, possibly Darcy and Khamis. There's also TOB.

Some of the above play different roles, but what role does/can Cordy actually play moving forward? He isn't a ruck, he isn't a forward, he isn't an intercept defender and his ability to lockdown is really questionable at best.

I suppose there's an element of knowing what you get with Cordy but I would argue that's all the more reason to let him go.

[FrediKanoute]

The tide sure has turned on Weightman quickly. One of the top scoring general forwards in the game, has the best accuracy of any non key forward with more than 35 goals (Mitch Lewis and just barely Lynch beat him out) , is our most accurate and second most prolific goal scorer this year, 2nd for average pressure acts among our forwards (I know it's a meme but what else to do have to quantify forward half pressure), 4th for average tackles inside 50 and 4th in the team for average ground ball gets inside 50 (I dunno how else to quantify crumbing).

So what's the pitch there? Sell the only natural non-tall forward we have and just play McNeil more or something? He goes for marks and that can be annoying sometimes when he makes the wrong call but is that such a crime that we don't want to play with him anymore? Far as we know he's encouraged to do that anyway.



TLDR; Leave him alone. I like him.

Agree. He hasn't been the same since the elbow, but before he did the elbow he had kicked 5 goals in a half. The kid can play. Sure he has limits, but he is still developing.

[mjp]

Respectfully, why mjp?

If it is as depth, I can sort of understand it ... But assuming we trade in Lobb there's zero chance he plays ahead of Naughton, Lobb, Marra, Bruce and possibly Darcy.

There should also be slim chances of him getting picked ahead of Keath, Gardy, Jones, possibly Darcy and Khamis. There's also TOB.

Some of the above play different roles, but what role does/can Cordy actually play moving forward? He isn't a ruck, he isn't a forward, he isn't an intercept defender and his ability to lockdown is really questionable at best.

I suppose there's an element of knowing what you get with Cordy but I would argue that's all the more reason to let him go.

Because you need to field a team.

How many key defenders do you need in a squad:

Jones (assuming), Keath, Gardner are really all we have.

I don't know exactly how to classify Khamis but key back isn't it.
Darcy is a developing tall and we have quite literally no idea where he is best suited.
TOB - well, that was a pretty questionable recruitment decision where we decided targeting Hawthorn's Zaine would be a good plan!

If you assume we need to play 3x key talls every week - or at least 2x keys and one of that 'next group' of Khamis, Darcy, O'Brien, and Cordy - it wont take much for us to simply run out of players.

Keath is highly likely to get injured.
Jones hasn't played for 18-months and is even MORE likely to get injured.
Gardner has missed time every season.
Darcy is a kid coming off a season where he missed the first 6-months because he was...INJURED.

SO if we lose even ONE of them then Cordy needs to play. If we lose two - and based on the age profile, it's going to happen - he will be essentially our number 1 defender.

If we are serious about playing finals, then we need to have mature footballers on the list who can at the very least compete. I understand everyone is done with Cordy (I get it) but going and recruiting another 'mid-price' defender from another club is just going to bring us another Tim O'Brien...and for everyone talking about Sam Taylor and Tommy Barrass etc - I have seen/heard nothing to indicate that we have enquired about them and the response has been positive.

If you don't like this synopsis (and I understand why you wouldn't) then set aside these ideas of recruiting Jones and Lobb and instead try to target a tall defender with a better age profile who is not as much of an injury risk. Who? Goodness only knows. I don't think the Taylors/McKays of the world are options though so it would have to come from the 2nd tier...

[FrediKanoute]

This just feels like we are talking about tearing apart the fabric of the club.

Sure - JJ gets 3x years and I'm happy for him. Martin retires.

Hunter needs to be rehabilitated whatever that looks like. Sounds like he needs support not to be kicked to the curb.

I am in the minority I guess but I hope Cordy re-signs for 2-years.

You have my vote for Hunter and Cordy. I would want to retain both. JJ given he is not playing the role he excel's at its probably best he moves on, but it would be a sad day.

[Mofra]

If you don't like this synopsis (and I understand why you wouldn't) then set aside these ideas of recruiting Jones and Lobb and instead try to target a tall defender with a better age profile who is not as much of an injury risk. Who? Goodness only knows. I don't think the Taylors/McKays of the world are options though so it would have to come from the 2nd tier...
We did ask about Payne from Brisbane last year - and missed out.

Right now KPDs are scarce, Hawthorn delisted Hartigan this week and St Kilda called his manager before he'd even called out his locker.

[mjp]

We did ask about Payne from Brisbane last year - and missed out.

Right now KPDs are scarce, Hawthorn delisted Hartigan this week and St Kilda called his manager before he'd even called out his locker.

That's my point. It's OK to join the 'No more Zaine' train but SOMEONE has to play in the key post. Whatever he is, he is a player who commits to the contest and knows the system.

[bornadog]

That's my point. It's OK to join the 'No more Zaine' train but SOMEONE has to play in the key post. Whatever he is, he is a player who commits to the contest and knows the system.

I am happy to keep him as back up, but we should be developing some young defenders for the future.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Because you need to field a team.

How many key defenders do you need in a squad:

Jones (assuming), Keath, Gardner are really all we have.

I don't know exactly how to classify Khamis but key back isn't it.
Darcy is a developing tall and we have quite literally no idea where he is best suited.
TOB - well, that was a pretty questionable recruitment decision where we decided targeting Hawthorn's Zaine would be a good plan!

If you assume we need to play 3x key talls every week - or at least 2x keys and one of that 'next group' of Khamis, Darcy, O'Brien, and Cordy - it wont take much for us to simply run out of players.

Keath is highly likely to get injured.
Jones hasn't played for 18-months and is even MORE likely to get injured.
Gardner has missed time every season.
Darcy is a kid coming off a season where he missed the first 6-months because he was...INJURED.

SO if we lose even ONE of them then Cordy needs to play. If we lose two - and based on the age profile, it's going to happen - he will be essentially our number 1 defender.

If we are serious about playing finals, then we need to have mature footballers on the list who can at the very least compete. I understand everyone is done with Cordy (I get it) but going and recruiting another 'mid-price' defender from another club is just going to bring us another Tim O'Brien...and for everyone talking about Sam Taylor and Tommy Barrass etc - I have seen/heard nothing to indicate that we have enquired about them and the response has been positive.

If you don't like this synopsis (and I understand why you wouldn't) then set aside these ideas of recruiting Jones and Lobb and instead try to target a tall defender with a better age profile who is not as much of an injury risk. Who? Goodness only knows. I don't think the Taylors/McKays of the world are options though so it would have to come from the 2nd tier...

Good post.

We went into 2022 very, very light on for rucks and effectively run the risk that English wouldn't miss games. Most of us didn't like it, and I'm not sure anyone would reflect on that as good list management.

Regardless, why take a different approach with this? The difference being we should have more depth in 2023 key defending stocks, and Cordy isn't a first (or second, or third) choice defender like English was as ruck. If we're decimated by injury to the point we're relying on Cordy, maybe we're just better off accepting it's unfortunate luck?

If Cordy is effectively the 40th player on the list and we're trying to contend, I won't lose sleep. But keeping an average and undersized player simply because he knows the system is keeping a player for the wrong reasons. That has to be the very definition of clogging a list.

I want us to be keeping players with a defined role in mind - some won't work out, some will, but it should be methodical. Khamis mightn't make it as a third/intercepting defender, but that's the role. Ditto Tim O'Brien.

What IS Cordy and his defined role? Because by now we should know it isn't a key defender and it isn't as an intercepting/attacking defender.

I expect us to keep Cordy, but I think it's the wrong decision. We're in a bit of a mess with our list because we keep refusing to cut deep enough and this would be another example of that.

[Scraggers]

I just don't think selling Weightman makes us better. He is one of the few natural forwards on our list, and anyone we can attract to replace him I can't see being prevented from doing so because he is at the club.

Also unfortunately unless a club is actively trying to poach a player (and even then it's hard to get value) it's pretty hard to make a player available and not tank their value.

Okay, as a scenario … just spitballing here … Collingwood talk to us and say ‘we know you’re interested in Grundy, we’ll give you him for the remaining six years of his contract and we’ll pay $300k per year towards it. We want your second round pick and a sweetener … Weightman’. Do you jump? Are you prepared to lose our best small forward in the hope Arthur comes good next year (different players, I know) and Grundy helps us lift the cup in 2023.

What is your ultimate price?

[Scraggers]

This just feels like we are talking about tearing apart the fabric of the club.

Sure - JJ gets 3x years and I'm happy for him. Martin retires.

Hunter needs to be rehabilitated whatever that looks like. Sounds like he needs support not to be kicked to the curb.

I am in the minority I guess but I hope Cordy re-signs for 2-years.

So I’m interested in your thoughts, do we only need a tweak? Do we need to show ruthless aggression? Will losing the like of JJ and Dunks be enough to revitalise the list. Some people on here are saying we need to trade English while his stocks are high; is that the carrot we need to dangle to get a McKay-like recruit?
(Personally I think English is the type of player I would build the team around. He has so much up-side and is yet to reach even the foothills of his peak) but is that how ruthless we need to be?

[boydogs]

Succeeding at the trade table isn't about a firesale on your list, it's about attracting players to your club that you need, think Brian Lake to Hawthorn. They nominate the club, we have the upper hand in negotiations, deal gets done without us paying overs in picks or salary

[jeemak]

Weightman dislocated his damn elbow in game and played the rest of the season through it (hurting it at least one other time). That’s a big deal!

If he got surgery on it (like I assume he’s gonna do this off season) and missed the time he gutted out then we’re probably all glowing over him. Trading him is insane.

You're a better player for the Bulldogs if you're not playing. It's the law.

[Mantis]

That's my point. It's OK to join the 'No more Zaine' train but SOMEONE has to play in the key post. Whatever he is, he is a player who commits to the contest and knows the system.

If our system is to have Cordy, who at best struggles athletically stand 20m front of his opponent… well our system is broken.

Understand he wouldn’t do any better standing back shoulder but surely there’s some sort of middle ground?

[bornadog]

If our system is to have Cordy, who at best struggles athletically stand 20m front of his opponent… well our system is broken.

Understand he wouldn’t do any better standing back shoulder but surely there’s some sort of middle ground?

Is he just following instructions? and yes, our system is broken

[mjp]

If our system is to have Cordy, who at best struggles athletically stand 20m front of his opponent… well our system is broken.

Isn't that a different question?

[mjp]

So I’m interested in your thoughts, do we only need a tweak? Do we need to show ruthless aggression? Will losing the like of JJ and Dunks be enough to revitalise the list.

There are at least two ways to look at it, but primarily this are the scenarios:

1/. Our 'REAL' level is the team that made the GF in 2021 under really difficult circumstances.
2/. Our 'REAL' level is 'maybe' win a final. We have played finals for the last 4x years and - had we not gotten a lucky CBD free-kick against Brisbane our record would be 1-4...with that one win against a team that sacked it's coach within 12-months of the game and is widely regarded as the worst finals side in the past decade.

So...pick your point of view.

If your POV is window 1 (GF Team), identify the pillars (Bont, Naughton, Daniel, English, Dale etc) and have a 'cold light of day' external review of the weaknesses (key back, small defender, small forward + a couple of game-style 'issues'). Spend whatever you have to in order to fix those problems.

If your POV is window 2 (bottom of the 8, no more) then you need to sacrifice one or two players out of the 'core' group in order to rebuild around our best player since Chris Grant (Bont). If we don't do that quickly, well, 2016 will be our last premiership for a really (really) long time.

So - I guess it depends on where you think we are at?

I get the impression a lot of people right now think our squad is a GF team but our coaching team/MC are bottom 4...I sort of think our squad is middle of the road but our coach in excellent...I just wish he would be happy to play GOOD football rather than being so determined to come up with 'clever' ideas that lead to feast/famine type outcomes. I love the way he thinks laterally about problems and creates interesting solutions - we are a unique footy side in so many ways - but when the chips are down you need to be able to defend one-on-one and move the ball cleanly from the defensive goal-square to the wing and give your defenders time to SET. We dont do either of those things consistently enough which results in goals against.

[bornadog]

If your POV is window 2 (bottom of the 8, no more) then you need to sacrifice one or two players out of the 'core' group in order to rebuild around our best player since Chris Grant (Bont). If we don't do that quickly, well, 2016 will be our last premiership for a really (really) long time.

Personally I am of the view we are in window one, but need to fix defence urgently.

However, let's assume Scraggers question needs to be answered and we are in POV window 2?

Who do we sacrifice in order to get some decent draft picks? We have to give away good players in order to get some good players. No use thinking of a Crozier or another fringe player, we will get nothing for them (nothing decent).

North have said they are open to trading pick one, maybe another club like Hawks or Adelaide would be willing to give up their first round for someone decent. What type of player do they need.

We know Dunks is 50/50, then maybe he is the first to be traded and maybe we need to look at one other player - perhaps a Bailey Dale (yeah it hurts), or Bailey Smith? I don't know. Perhaps offer up Treloar to go with Dunks?

[Grantysghost]

There are at least two ways to look at it, but primarily this are the scenarios:

1/. Our 'REAL' level is the team that made the GF in 2021 under really difficult circumstances.
2/. Our 'REAL' level is 'maybe' win a final. We have played finals for the last 4x years and - had we not gotten a lucky CBD free-kick against Brisbane our record would be 1-4...with that one win against a team that sacked it's coach within 12-months of the game and is widely regarded as the worst finals side in the past decade.

So...pick your point of view.

If your POV is window 1 (GF Team), identify the pillars (Bont, Naughton, Daniel, English, Dale etc) and have a 'cold light of day' external review of the weaknesses (key back, small defender, small forward + a couple of game-style 'issues'). Spend whatever you have to in order to fix those problems.

If your POV is window 2 (bottom of the 8, no more) then you need to sacrifice one or two players out of the 'core' group in order to rebuild around our best player since Chris Grant (Bont). If we don't do that quickly, well, 2016 will be our last premiership for a really (really) long time.

So - I guess it depends on where you think we are at?

I get the impression a lot of people right now think our squad is a GF team but our coaching team/MC are bottom 4...I sort of think our squad is middle of the road but our coach in excellent...I just wish he would be happy to play GOOD football rather than being so determined to come up with 'clever' ideas that lead to feast/famine type outcomes. I love the way he thinks laterally about problems and creates interesting solutions - we are a unique footy side in so many ways - but when the chips are down you need to be able to defend one-on-one and move the ball cleanly from the defensive goal-square to the wing and give your defenders time to SET. We dont do either of those things consistently enough which results in goals against.

You want me to say Macrae... I can feel it.

I really struggle with trying to make a case for getting rid of good players.

I think we are POV 2 - the list is 5-8 and needs to shore up the defence, and get some more dynamic midfielders. The point raised about the handball club, and going sideways and not forward is so true.

I watched very closely in the Freo game, and they were setup so well we appeared to have no clue what to do with it.

To be honest if I do it the other way it's easier. Untouchables.

Naughton, Bont, Smith, Dale, Darcy, Marra, Richards, Liberatore, McNeil.

[F'scary]

This just feels like we are talking about tearing apart the fabric of the club.

Sure - JJ gets 3x years and I'm happy for him. Martin retires.

Hunter needs to be rehabilitated whatever that looks like. Sounds like he needs support not to be kicked to the curb.

I am in the minority I guess but I hope Cordy re-signs for 2-years.

Hunter returned to form after a couple of matches and was far from our worst in the 13 point (after 54 point turnaround) loss to Freo. He knows how to find the ball and has generally good disposal skills, which is more than you can say for our overly extensive group of fringe mids/list cloggers.

Cordy, hmmm :confused:. I see Khamis, Cleary and Raak, along with Darcy and possibly L Jones. That is a lot of competition for 3rd tall or key position back.

[mjp]

You want me to say Macrae... I can feel it.


Umm. Not really.

He is a ball winner like no-one I have ever seen.

I think it is fair to call him out when he is sooking it up on the field - which he does - just because he isn't playing in his preferred position.

[Grantysghost]

Umm. Not really.

He is a ball winner like no-one I have ever seen.

I think it is fair to call him out when he is sooking it up on the field - which he does - just because he isn't playing in his preferred position.

If we are in POV 2, who would you out of the supposed 'untouchables' offer up or be ok with moving on for the greater good? It's not an easy exercise.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

For me, the only true untouchables are Bont and Naughton.

I'm listening to everything else.

[mjp]

If we are in POV 2, who would you out of the supposed 'untouchables' offer up or be ok with moving on for the greater good? It's not an easy exercise.

I would say Bont and Naughton are 'TRUE' untouchables and would listen to offers re- anyone else IF we are in 'WINDOW 2'.

I wouldn't offer anyone up - I don't know the group as well as the coaches...but if someone came knocking, why wouldn't you listen?

I tend to think we are in window #1 by the way.

[Mofra]

'Aggressive' may well be overpaying for a player in a position of need, which for us is obviously a KPD in a tight market.

Aidan Corr is going at $600k and Logue's offer from north is being reported at $650k. Average to good swingman McStay is looking at a $650k x 5 deal from the pies. We went at $700k for Keath a few years back.
Who do we look to and what do we pay for them?

[azabob]

'Aggressive' may well be overpaying for a player in a position of need, which for us is obviously a KPD in a tight market.

Aidan Corr is going at $600k and Logue's offer from north is being reported at $650k. Average to good swingman McStay is looking at a $650k x 5 deal from the pies. We went at $700k for Keath a few years back.
Who do we look to and what do we pay for them?

Melbourne were aggressive with Jake Leaver and Steven May...

[hujsh]

I would say Bont and Naughton are 'TRUE' untouchables and would listen to offers re- anyone else IF we are in 'WINDOW 2'.

I wouldn't offer anyone up - I don't know the group as well as the coaches...but if someone came knocking, why wouldn't you listen?

I tend to think we are in window #1 by the way.

I'm unsure what the Window 2 vs Window 1 distinction is. Is it 1st crack at a premiership before a slight rejig of the playing list and a second attempt?

Could you maybe elaborate?

[Grantysghost]

Melbourne were aggressive with Jake Leaver and Steven May...

They pretty much missed the 2018 draft, but then fell arse into luck by being shit and snaring Pickett and Jackson.

[bornadog]

I'm unsure what the Window 2 vs Window 1 distinction is. Is it 1st crack at a premiership before a slight rejig of the playing list and a second attempt?

Could you maybe elaborate?

Read MJP's post #34

[hujsh]

Read MJP's post #34

Oh right thanks

[MrMahatma]

Window 1 for me. We were top 2 team last year apart from a run of the last few matches, then went back to being a top 2 team.

This year is the anomaly I reckon. I also reckon we have loads and loads of talent.

I’d be reluctant to trade any of our top 10 players and that includes Dunks. If he wants out though then, as he’s out of contract, you gotta deal.

[mjp]

Window 1 for me. We were top 2 team last year apart from a run of the last few matches, then went back to being a top 2 team.

This year is the anomaly I reckon. I also reckon we have loads and loads of talent.

I’d be reluctant to trade any of our top 10 players and that includes Dunks. If he wants out though then, as he’s out of contract, you gotta deal.

I agree with you.

Unfortunately getting the answer to this question 'RIGHT' is the key to taking the right steps moving forward. I'm glad I'm not in charge (lol - I mean, as if) because it would be a question that I would genuinely lose sleep over.

The challenge is you need to be able to separate players who are on a pathway of improvement - Gardner is a good example - from players who are genuinely elite. But because you have personal relationships with the players and have been there 'over the journey', personalities loom large...