Hawthorn racism review

[azabob]

An external review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club will reveal allegations that key figures at the AFL club demanded the separation of young First Nations players from their partners, and pressured one couple to terminate a pregnancy for the sake of the player's career.

WARNING: This story contains details of self-harm, pregnancy loss, and intergenerational trauma for Indigenous people

The review document, handed to Hawthorn's senior management two weeks ago and now with the AFL integrity unit, will allege that club staff involved include four-time premiership coach Alastair Clarkson and former assistant Chris Fagan, now the coach of the Brisbane Lions.

It is believed the review was similar in scope to Collingwood's 'Do Better' review of 2021 and will have similarly dramatic ramifications.

According to the families of three players interviewed by ABC Sport, the incidents at the centre of the review allegedly took place during Clarkson's time as head coach, a period in which the club won four AFL premierships, including a historic treble between 2013 and 2015. Clarkson recently signed a lucrative five-year deal to coach North Melbourne.

Hawthorn had more than 20 First Nations players in the period of the review. Three families involved told ABC Sport about incidents in which club staff allegedly bullied and removed First Nations players from their homes and relocated them elsewhere, telling them to choose between their careers and their families.

In some cases, coaches allegedly coerced at least two players to remove SIM cards from their phones and insert new ones in attempts to cut them off from their partners and focus them entirely on the club's pursuit of football success. In each case, the player was a young First Nations draftee in his first five years with the club.

But the gravest accusations relate to the club's alleged intimidation tactics to separate couples at the earliest stages of pregnancies and parenthood, and the alleged demand that one player should instruct his partner to terminate a pregnancy — actions the families say created multi-generational traumas.

Two of the families affected have recently been provided with mental health assistance from the AFL Players' Association due to the suicide risks associated with reliving their traumas for the sake of the review, and there is frustration among the families that Hawthorn has only offered them assistance since becoming aware of ABC Sport's investigation, and that the club has made no public comment on the report's findings despite being in receipt of the allegations for weeks.

Three families at the centre of the investigation have told ABC Sport about the grief and trauma caused by their experiences.

continue reading https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/alastair-clarkson-and-chris-fagan-named-in-hawks-review/101452320

[1eyedog]

200 years of European occupation and we are still tearing First Nation people apart. I'm speechless.

[jazzadogs]

Horrific article. Incredibly brave of those poor families to share their stories, even though it won't bring back the children and moments that were lost.

It amazes me that in the midst of this Hawthorn were still seen as an industry frontrunner for indigenous players.

[EasternWest]

Wow.

[Grantysghost]

If true that usurps the Essendon drugs scandal.

Those poor families. I had tears in my eyes reading Ian’s and Amy’s story.

Fagan and Clarkson if guilty are done.

[Mofra]

Horrific.
Did they forget that the players were actually human beings?

[bornadog]

200 years of European occupation and we are still tearing First Nation people apart. I'm speechless.

Absolutely and utterly disgusting. Who the hell do these people think they are treating people like this.

[soupman]

If true that usurps the Essendon drugs scandal.


Absolutely. Completely horrific and disgusting.



Fagan and Clarkson if guilty are done.

Huge ramifications for both North and Brisbane now. By far not the biggest victims but both are in a very awkward position going forward.

[Grantysghost]

Was Bevo there during this period?

[Mofra]

It does beg the question - did Bevo know?

[GVGjr]

Horrific.
Did they forget that the players were actually human beings?

It's unbelievable that things like this can still happen. Players like Impey and Wingard apparently went there because of the indigenous culture and they must be having a rethink now.

[bornadog]

Was Bevo there during this period?

2012 to 2014, but he is not named as one of the coaches involved.

[Grantysghost]

It's unbelievable that things like this can still happen. Players like Impey and Wingard apparently went there because of the indigenous culture and they must be having a rethink now.

They definitely did, I got it straight from a former Port player that was close to both.

[bornadog]

It does beg the question - did Bevo know?

Listening to Luke Hodge on the radio just now, he says he didn't know.

[Grantysghost]

It does beg the question - did Bevo know?
It really does. I hope like hell he didn’t.

Considering this is an internal review (done properly by an external group) the findings carry a lot more weight to me.

[Grantysghost]

Listening to Luke Hodge on the radio just now, he says he didn't know.

In all seriousness what is he going to say? They’ve all had meetings with their managers this morning and concocted their public responses.

Cynical I know bad but in my experience this is the world.

Crushed ibuprofen ! Hey that’s a good band name.

[azabob]

Listening to Luke Hodge on the radio just now, he says he didn't know.

Hodge has done a lot of denying lately. This and now the whole Cyril Riloi and Kennett issue.

Surely he must have known?

[Mofra]

Hodge has done a lot of denying lately. This and now the whole Cyril Riloi and Kennett issue.

Surely he must have known?
If you're the captain, isn't his job to know?

If I had a workmate that suddenly broke up with their pregnant partner I'd be at the very least curious. If it happened multiple times, shouldn't questions be asked?

[Happy Days]

That was horrible to read. It goes beyond anything I can remember seeing out of a club before, beyond a lack of care and venturing into targeted degradation and dehumanisation that you would expect from a prison.

If something like this came out about us I’d have a really hard time continuing my support.

[bornadog]

In all seriousness what is he going to say? They’ve all had meetings with their managers this morning and concocted their public responses.

Cynical I know bad but in my experience this is the world.

Crushed ibuprofen ! Hey that’s a good band name.

I agree, of course he must have known something.

I am really angry about this. It just ads to a long list of treating the indigenous people of this country badly. A culture that goes back 60,000 years and their country takenover and treated worse than dogs. As 1Eyedog said, surely after more than 200 years we would have stopped being arseholes.

[SonofScray]

Awful stuff. Severe over stepping of professional boundaries looks like the best possible reading of it, but on first read of that ABC article, it’s actually a lot more problematic than that.

[Grantysghost]

Gil is talking at 1030.

[DOG GOD]

WTF have I just read. Unbelievable to think this happened.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

This is why we can't have nice things...
What a disgrace, and echoing Happy Days' comment, if this was our club I'd have to really think through my continued support.

[bornadog]

This is why we can't have nice things...
What a disgrace, and echoing Happy Days' comment, if this was our club I'd have to really think through my continued support.

I would want every person sacked and start again

[Mofra]

What a disgrace, and echoing Happy Days' comment, if this was our club I'd have to really think through my continued support.
If the people involved weren't removed, I'd also revoke membership

[Grantysghost]

AFL to conduct independant review.
Panel of 4 to be led by a KC.

Looks like they're taking it seriously.

Re accused, natural justice was his key word to give them due process which is fair.

Didn't comment on whether they'd be stood down said something like that's the clubs process maybe.

He was in full deflection mode.

[MrMahatma]

That's horrible and hard to fathom.

[GVGjr]

As bad as this is, and it's horrendous, we also need to accept that many clubs have tried to pressure players into decisions or have ignored unacceptable behavior in an effort to win games of football.

We only need to look at the way Collingwood tried to coerce Adam Treloar to not let his wife move to QLD to further her own sporting career and then effectively sacked him when they didn't get the answer they wanted. This was a clear breach of decency to someone who was professional throughout his time at Collingwood.

I think there would be plenty of clubs that couldn't survive a lot of scrutiny on they way they have addressed racism over the last 10 years despite the education that has been available.

[Mofra]

Hun running with Fagan may be stood down.
Fagan is "blindsided" by the report & allegations

[bornadog]

Hun running with Fagan may be stood down.
Fagan is "blindsided" by the report & allegations

Need to see his side of the story.

[EasternWest]

Is it just time that we accepted that the AFL as a business is a bloodthirsty uncaring beast fuelled by money, cocaine and ego.

These things come out and we are all shocked by them, but deep inside we're kind of not really.

I mean, Brett Montgomery got knocked out cold and we put him back on the field ten minutes later and celebrated his performance nevermind the ramifications for his long term health.

And no, I'm not conflating systemic racism with poor injury management, I just think that the romantic notion of the AFL and footy clubs is a fallacy.

You know what the worst part is? I'll keep watching.

[jazzadogs]

As bad as this is, and it's horrendous, we also need to accept that many clubs have tried to pressure players into decisions or have ignored unacceptable behavior in an effort to win games of football.

We only need to look at the way Collingwood tried to coerce Adam Treloar to not let his wife move to QLD to further her own sporting career and then effectively sacked him when they didn't get the answer they wanted. This was a clear breach of decency to someone who was professional throughout his time at Collingwood.

I think there would be plenty of clubs that couldn't survive a lot of scrutiny on they way they have addressed racism over the last 10 years despite the education that has been available.

I posed a similar comparison to some Bulldogs supporters (not sure if on here) and thought the response was excellent:
You can’t separate this from history of treatment of Indigenous peopl. Same horrific practices of separation of families, abuse of human rights etc that led to stolen generation. What Hawthorn has done has the same meaning + ongoing / compounding harm & trauma. It’s not the same if they did it to non-indigenous players. (Which they don’t appear to have)

[Topdog]

WTF have I just read. Unbelievable to think this happened.

you stole the words out of my mouth. Incredible.

[Topdog]

As bad as this is, and it's horrendous, we also need to accept that many clubs have tried to pressure players into decisions or have ignored unacceptable behavior in an effort to win games of football.

We only need to look at the way Collingwood tried to coerce Adam Treloar to not let his wife move to QLD to further her own sporting career and then effectively sacked him when they didn't get the answer they wanted. This was a clear breach of decency to someone who was professional throughout his time at Collingwood.

I think there would be plenty of clubs that couldn't survive a lot of scrutiny on they way they have addressed racism over the last 10 years despite the education that has been available.

I know where you are coming from and Colligwood was very bad with Treloar but that is his wifes career which is very different to ripping apart the family. This is really next level stuff. im in shock having read it.

[1eyedog]

I agree, of course he must have known something.

I am really angry about this. It just ads to a long list of treating the indigenous people of this country badly. A culture that goes back 60,000 years and their country takenover and treated worse than dogs. As 1Eyedog said, surely after more than 200 years we would have stopped being arseholes.

The information at hand seems to indicate that Aboriginal people were treated differently purely because they were Indigenous and this is social Darwinism at it's absolute ugliest.

[GVGjr]

Hun running with Fagan may be stood down.
Fagan is "blindsided" by the report & allegations

As much as I don't want to head hunt people without more of the facts being available given the extreme severity of allegations the decent thing would be for Clarkson and Fagan to stand down now and allow the process to run it's course.

[SonofScray]

As much as I don't want to head hunt people without more of the facts being available given the extreme severity of allegations the decent thing would be for Clarkson and Fagan to stand down now and allow the process to run it's course.

That’s the reasonable course of action, and doesn’t have to imply guilt at this point, despite things seeming quite damning.Would be what happens in a professional workplace.

[The bulldog tragician]

I can’t imagine this will sit well with North, their chair Sonja Hood was the chair of an org where I worked supporting women and children who’d been thru family violence and homelessness, and she runs an org integrating refugees into the community. A great person and this will not be in accord with her values or be part of the boys club that will try to diminish these things.

I’m dismayed and sickened by what’s been revealed. I doubt the report would have been released if there wasn’t supporting evidence and that any possible malice or fabrications hadn’t been ruled out. It feels like both coaches positions are untenable to be honest unless these awful allegations can be 100% discredited, which I doubt.

[Topdog]

Even if only 10% (and i agree with post above it would have been vetted so would be much higher) is true the ramifications for Burt, Clarko and Fagan will be huge.
No parent would want their kids at a club with these 3 invoked.

[GVGjr]

That’s the reasonable course of action, and doesn’t have to imply guilt at this point, despite things seeming quite damning.Would be what happens in a professional workplace.

Yes, I have seen this happen a few times in the workplace. I'd be expecting this to happen today/tomorrow.
As you say, standing down is not an admission of guilt.

[Rocket Science]

Frankly I'm shocked this kind of culture could've ensued under the watch of a President who merrily boasted of his extensive collection of Golliwog dolls.

[Jeanette54]

I bet they are not the only players to have the timing of a birth date questioned. I am not entirely sure it's actually a solely racist issue.

Don't shoot the messenger, but it is a professional (if somewhat uncaring) sport. Unlike international cricketers, football has an off season, and I can understand a coach being annoyed/frustrated when pending childbirth dates occur during finals, or even the home and away season. Is it reasonable for a club to expect a fully professional player to try to time conception so that the late pregnancy/birth for out of season?

I have no real knowledge of this specific case, just wondering generally. It's not like we don't understand how long the human gestation period is, give or take.

[whythelongface]

This is shocking. Just absolutely shocking. I can’t believe that in our modern society we still treat specific races as second class citizens. So so sad.

[Flamethrower]

I felt physically ill reading this. I can't see how Clarkson, Fagan and other involved in this can keep their current jobs.

If this was the Western Bulldogs I would immediately cancel my membership and all ties to the club. My Hawthorn mate already has decided to.

[EasternWest]

Frankly I'm shocked this kind of culture could've ensued under the watch of a President who merrily boasted of his extensive collection of Golliwog dolls.

Good point Rocket for once I hadn't thought to myself "how can I blame Kennett"

[whythelongface]

I bet they are not the only players to have the timing of a birth date questioned. I am not entirely sure it's actually a solely racist issue.

Don't shoot the messenger, but it is a professional (if somewhat uncaring) sport. Unlike international cricketers, football has an off season, and I can understand a coach being annoyed/frustrated when pending childbirth dates occur during finals, or even the home and away season. Is it reasonable for a club to expect a fully professional player to try to time conception so that the late pregnancy/birth for out of season?

I have no real knowledge of this specific case, just wondering generally. It's not like we don't understand how long the human gestation period is, give or take.

Sorry but this is race related. Even as of last week a non-indigenous player missed a finals game due to an impending birth. Was that player asked to terminate a pregnancy so that it didn’t interrupt the team’s season? No. One of the coaches in question is the Head Coach.

[bulldogtragic]

Chris Fagan taking a leave of absence from Brisbane.

[GVGjr]

Chris Fagan taking a leave of absence from Brisbane.

Needed to. This could just be the start.

[Topdog]

I bet they are not the only players to have the timing of a birth date questioned. I am not entirely sure it's actually a solely racist issue.

Don't shoot the messenger, but it is a professional (if somewhat uncaring) sport. Unlike international cricketers, football has an off season, and I can understand a coach being annoyed/frustrated when pending childbirth dates occur during finals, or even the home and away season. Is it reasonable for a club to expect a fully professional player to try to time conception so that the late pregnancy/birth for out of season?

I have no real knowledge of this specific case, just wondering generally. It's not like we don't understand how long the human gestation period is, give or take.

It really feels like you didnt read the story at all

[Grantysghost]

Chris Fagan taking a leave of absence from Brisbane.

Wow, the Lions couldn't even be strong enough to stand him down they had to spin it with leave of absence to protect his image.

[Daughter of the West]

I felt physically ill reading this. I can't see how Clarkson, Fagan and other involved in this can keep their current jobs.

If this was the Western Bulldogs I would immediately cancel my membership and all ties to the club. My Hawthorn mate already has decided to.

I have exactly the same view. I applaud your Hawthorn mate.

These sort of allegations make me question my emotional investment in professional sport. If that is how human beings are being treated in the pursuit of fleeting success, how the hell could a reasonable person support it?!?

[EasternWest]

I bet they are not the only players to have the timing of a birth date questioned. I am not entirely sure it's actually a solely racist issue.

Don't shoot the messenger, but it is a professional (if somewhat uncaring) sport. Unlike international cricketers, football has an off season, and I can understand a coach being annoyed/frustrated when pending childbirth dates occur during finals, or even the home and away season. Is it reasonable for a club to expect a fully professional player to try to time conception so that the late pregnancy/birth for out of season?

I have no real knowledge of this specific case, just wondering generally. It's not like we don't understand how long the human gestation period is, give or take.

Deleted I'm not even bothering.

[bulldogtragic]

I read it all again before trying to gather my thoughts about it.

If this is true, and so far no one is denying it, then the response needs to be extreme. Life bans across all levels, financial sanctions, draft sanctions, pressure on sponsors to rip up contracts, and public funding withdrawn, legal/class action for personal injury, and every other possible punitive sanction that reflects the sickening and abhorrent reactions and decent human being feels having read this.

I hope Hawthorn & Lions players walk out and potentially coming to us in a Dunkley trade. Though Dunkley should re-assess moving to a club without a head coach. Fagan won’t survive this. But this is way bigger than footy.

[MrMahatma]

I bet they are not the only players to have the timing of a birth date questioned. I am not entirely sure it's actually a solely racist issue.

Don't shoot the messenger, but it is a professional (if somewhat uncaring) sport. Unlike international cricketers, football has an off season, and I can understand a coach being annoyed/frustrated when pending childbirth dates occur during finals, or even the home and away season. Is it reasonable for a club to expect a fully professional player to try to time conception so that the late pregnancy/birth for out of season?

I have no real knowledge of this specific case, just wondering generally. It's not like we don't understand how long the human gestation period is, give or take.

That's a pretty bizarre take. You know footy is their job, right? Would you be OK with your employer putting that kind of restriction on you?

[Topdog]

That's a pretty bizarre take. You know footy is their job, right? Would you be OK with your employer putting that kind of restriction on you?

It also has nothing to do with the story from the details that have been released so far.

[SonofScray]

I bet they are not the only players to have the timing of a birth date questioned. I am not entirely sure it's actually a solely racist issue.

Don't shoot the messenger, but it is a professional (if somewhat uncaring) sport. Unlike international cricketers, football has an off season, and I can understand a coach being annoyed/frustrated when pending childbirth dates occur during finals, or even the home and away season. Is it reasonable for a club to expect a fully professional player to try to time conception so that the late pregnancy/birth for out of season?

I have no real knowledge of this specific case, just wondering generally. It's not like we don't understand how long the human gestation period is, give or take.

A few layers to it.

I’m not sure it is reasonable at all for a workplace to limit or restrict the timing of any efforts to conceive a child. I suspect in women’s professional sport there’s much more knowledgeable folk and consideration in how to negotiate these things. I’d see any discussion of that nature with my employer as a gross over stepping of boundaries.

The article clearly locates challenging behaviours and attitudes by people in power framed around the racial identity of specific players. I don’t think you can zoom out so much to view it as just the topic above. Not in an environment where the organisation seeks to lead in creating safe and inclusive space for indigenous folk, and also improve their brand and commercial position by being seen to do it.

This news is very significant and comes with it a significant level of disrepute for the industry, let alone Hawthorn and the individuals alleged to have behaved so disgracefully.

[bulldogtragic]

I read it all again before trying to gather my thoughts about it.

If this is true, and so far no one is denying it, then the response needs to be extreme. Life bans across all levels, financial sanctions, draft sanctions, pressure on sponsors to rip up contracts, and public funding withdrawn, legal/class action for personal injury, and every other possible punitive sanction that reflects the sickening and abhorrent reactions and decent human being feels having read this.

I hope Hawthorn & Lions players walk out and potentially coming to us in a Dunkley trade. Though Dunkley should re-assess moving to a club without a head coach. Fagan won’t survive this. But this is way bigger than footy.

Walker got 6 weeks and $20,000 and stained forever for a two word slur, that I won’t repeat. How is this isn’t going to be apocalyptic?

[bornadog]

Frankly I'm shocked this kind of culture could've ensued under the watch of a President who merrily boasted of his extensive collection of Golliwog dolls.


Early this year:

Cyril Rioli goes public with racism claims at Hawthorn (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/apr/02/cyril-rioli-goes-public-with-racism-claims-at-hawthorn)

[bornadog]

That's a pretty bizarre take. You know footy is their job, right? Would you be OK with your employer putting that kind of restriction on you?

I will give Jeanette54 the benefit of the doubt. She needs to click on the ABC site for the full report and not just read the OP.

[bornadog]

I felt physically ill reading this. I can't see how Clarkson, Fagan and other involved in this can keep their current jobs.

If this was the Western Bulldogs I would immediately cancel my membership and all ties to the club. My Hawthorn mate already has decided to.

I would only withdraw support if not all the administration, coaches and working staff are SACKED so we could start again.


Clean slate.

[bulldogtragic]

I would only withdraw support if not all the administration, coaches and working staff are SACKED so we could start again.


Clean slate.

Send their licence to Tasmania permanently, under an AFEL auditor with Tasmania government to build a new club.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's the AFEL here.

They'll all be slapped with a wet lettuce leaf.

[EasternWest]

It's the AFEL here.

They'll all be slapped with a wet lettuce leaf.

I think we've found the next triple m commentary team.

[SonofScray]

Send their licence to Tasmania permanently, under an AFEL auditor with Tasmania government to build a new club.
Honestly, I feel like that should have happened to EOC and this is very much adjacent to that level of scandal. They’ve disgraced themselves and the game.

[Grantysghost]

I will give Jeanette54 the benefit of the doubt. She needs to click on the ABC site for the full report and not just read the OP.

Yes please read it all.

Breaking up couples when they're expecting, more than that pretty much abducting the player and then just casually saying oh btw your baby died.

It's beyond belief. I just hope it's not all true and I do respect the process.

[Grantysghost]

I think we've found the next triple m commentary team.

Wow eeeeeeee

[bornadog]

I just hope Bevo knew nothing about this. He hasn't been named, but the external review will dig deep.

[Grantysghost]

I just hope Bevo knew nothing about this. He hasn't been named, but the external review will dig deep.

If he did he goes.

[jeemak]

Jesus *!*!*!*!ing christ.

Three quarters through the ABC report and there's no words. Need a break.

[Grantysghost]

Jesus *!*!*!*!ing christ.

Three quarters through the ABC report and there's no words. Need a break.

Most unbelievable sports story ever.

The drugs stuff I get, it's about performance.

This is like a cult.

[jeemak]

Most unbelievable sports story ever.

The drugs stuff I get, it's about performance.

This is like a cult.

Coaches storming houses like some sort of goon squad.......

[Grantysghost]

Coaches storming houses like some sort of goon squad.......

I've got no words.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Jesus *!*!*!*!ing christ.

Three quarters through the ABC report and there's no words. Need a break.

Slowly reading through it in detail now, my reaction is the same.

Hard to put into words. How can this actually happen?

[MrMahatma]

If he did he goes.

Ahhh... woo up. Bit early to make calls like that, particularly about someone who isn't a chief protagonist.

[bornadog]

Shaun Burgoyne:


“Very confronting”
“Involved in the review process”
“Had no knowledge of the incidents ever happening”
“If I knew I would have helped”.

[Grantysghost]

Ahhh... woo up. Bit early to make calls like that, particularly about someone who isn't a chief protagonist.

Antagonist more like. But yes, big if.

[Dry Rot]

I've got no words.

Agreed. I am beyond words reading that.

Has anyone figured out who the three players were?

You also have to wonder if there were more affected. And whether there was some nasty stuff done to non-Indigenous players?

[Dry Rot]

Far from sharing his joy, Ian alleges that a group of coaches, including Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan, ushered him into an office, where he was urged to have the pregnancy terminated, "get rid" of his partner and move into the home of an assistant coach.

Interesting.

[Grantysghost]

Far from sharing his joy, Ian alleges that a group of coaches, including Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan, ushered him into an office, where he was urged to have the pregnancy terminated, "get rid" of his partner and move into the home of an assistant coach.

Interesting.

Group is bad.

[Topdog]

Agreed. I am beyond words reading that.

Has anyone figured out who the three players were?

You also have to wonder if there were more affected. And whether there was some nasty stuff done to non-Indigenous players?

Given they provided the years the review focused on and the age and cultural background of the players involved its not hard to work out but I'm not going to start that guessing game. They wanted their names kept private so I will respect that.

[G-Mo77]

I just hope Bevo knew nothing about this. He hasn't been named, but the external review will dig deep.

If it's the player I'm thinking of, the timeline would have been around 2014 so he was there at the time. Doesn't mean he's involved though.

[MrMahatma]

If it's the player I'm thinking of, the timeline would have been around 2014 so he was there at the time. Doesn't mean he's involved though.

Bevo was off to the Saints before he got our gig. Who knows... perhaps he knew something and couldn't do anything so had always intended to leave? Perhaps he knew nothing?

I'm sure we all hope that he's not implicated, for him as a person, and cause that'd have to be it... no more coach.

[1eyedog]

Ahhh... woo up. Bit early to make calls like that, particularly about someone who isn't a chief protagonist.

He's not making any calls. He's saying if Bevo knew what was going on / was present he's gone and I 100% agree.

Considering Bevo was an assistant around that time it's not outside the realms of possibility.

It will find the light of day if he was involved in this.

[Grantysghost]

He's not making any calls. He's saying if Bevo knew what was going on / was present he's gone and I 100% agree.

Considering Bevo was an assistant around that time it's not outside the realms of possibility.

It will find the light of day if he was involved in this.

That's it 1ED.

I've met Luke many times, spent 2016 GF night talking to him and celebrating for 20 mins whilst Easton gave us a group hug.

All that aside.

If he's involved in any way, there's no question in my mind he should be removed as our coach.

[bornadog]

He's not making any calls. He's saying if Bevo knew what was going on / was present he's gone and I 100% agree.

Considering Bevo was an assistant around that time it's not outside the realms of possibility.

It will find the light of day if he was involved in this.

In any case, the Hawthorn review revealed three people and Bevo wasn't one of them. Also there at the time was Adam Simpson and maybe a few more coaches

[Grantysghost]

In any case, the Hawthorn review revealed three people and Bevo wasn't one of them. Also there at the time was Adam Simpson and maybe a few more coaches

That wasn't the Hawthorn review, that was the ABC story.

The review is being kept confidential.

[bornadog]

That wasn't the Hawthorn review, that was the ABC story.

The review is being kept confidential.

From ABC article


The review document, handed to Hawthorn's senior management two weeks ago and now with the AFL integrity unit, will allege that club staff involved include four-time premiership coach Alastair Clarkson and former assistant Chris Fagan, now the coach of the Brisbane Lions.

[Grantysghost]

From ABC article

If they have it they've breached confidence and will be sued id assume.

[jeemak]

I reckon if any of the other coaches involved were high profile or current senior coaches the story would have mentioned it.

You can almost bet if there was a hint of Bevo being involved it'd be top of mind for any editor to put into the ABC/ media report.

[jeemak]

If they have it they've breached confidence and will be sued id assume.

Not sure that's how it works.....

[bornadog]

If they have it they've breached confidence and will be sued id assume.

ABC would make sure lawyers checked article first.

I see that Jason Burt is head of Caulfield Grammer Coaching and performance. I wonder what the school will do? Parents will be demanding to get rid of him

[angelopetraglia]

Chris Fagan taking a leave of absence from Brisbane.

If some of the allegations were not near the mark surely he doesn't stand down. If I was accused of something like that and I was 100% innocent, I would die on that hill. You would engage with the largest forum possible and tell your side of the story. This is false. It never happened. It is rubbish.

That we have not heard that from Fagan, speaks a million words.

[bornadog]

Hawthorn Culture

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FdKFsoAaMAA0ycr?format=jpg&name=large

[angelopetraglia]

What club kicked off the Adam Goodes booing? Hawthorn of course.

[jeemak]

Hawthorn Culture

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FdKFsoAaMAA0ycr?format=jpg&name=large

We've said many times on this forum that a grown man having a black doll dressed in a Hawthorn kit and being named after a Hawthorn player of first nations heritage is perfectly cool and normal. Posting this at this time just reinforces that!

[Grantysghost]

We've said many times on this forum that a grown man having a black doll dressed in a Hawthorn kit and being named after a Hawthorn player of first nations heritage is perfectly cool and normal. Posting this at this time just reinforces that!

What a fuktard

[bulldogtragic]

North have delayed Clarkson starting. He was due to start November 1.

North's trade period might not be as smooth as they were hoping for.

[SonofScray]

If some of the allegations were not near the mark surely he doesn't stand down. If I was accused of something like that and I was 100% innocent, I would die on that hill. You would engage with the largest forum possible and tell your side of the story. This is false. It never happened. It is rubbish.

That we have not heard that from Fagan, speaks a million words.

Maybe. But I think industrially, stepping down while the investigation happens is a sound strategy. In my experience it is better when you are holding a position in leadership to step aside and perhaps not deal with the extra scrutiny from outside the formal process and just let it run its course. Hard to keep doing your job day to day when it’s the pointy end of this stuff. If you act with integrity within your role and participate within an agreed process, you should be confident in a fair outcome. Some mud will invariably stick, but the outcome is there and you can move on.

If you are bullshitting, or trying to spin, you’ll be found out or look at strategies outside the process, we see all sorts of rallying behaviour and breaches of confidence during investigations.

[G-Mo77]

North have delayed Clarkson starting. He was due to start November 1.

North's trade period might not be as smooth as they were hoping for.

They're a club that will put principals before shovelling money into the coffers. I really think they'll tear up his contract.

[Grantysghost]

North have delayed Clarkson starting. He was due to start November 1.

North's trade period might not be as smooth as they were hoping for.

He's finisihed.

[GVGjr]

North have delayed Clarkson starting. He was due to start November 1.

North's trade period might not be as smooth as they were hoping for.

They'll need to be ultra careful with this, if anyone gets the idea that things are being run by Clarko this could blow up.

[bornadog]

They're a club that will put principals before shovelling money into the coffers. I really think they'll tear up his contract.

I wonder if there is a clause to get rid of him without paying him out. Clarkson is another that holds the all mighty dollar above anything else. 5 years at what $1 million.

[SonofScray]

They're a club that will put principals before shovelling money into the coffers. I really think they'll tear up his contract.

As much as I hate them, this is absolutely true and a credit to them as an organisation. I suspect their President will act with a high level of integrity.

[bornadog]

Clarkson


"The health, care and welfare of our players, staff and their families were always my highest priorities during my time at the Hawthorn Football Club," Clarkson said.

"I was therefore shocked by the extremely serious allegations reported in the media earlier today. I was not interviewed by the authors of the report commissioned by the club, and nor have I been provided with a copy of the report.

"I was not afforded any due process and I refute any allegation of wrongdoing or misconduct and look forward to the opportunity to be heard as part of the AFL external investigation.

"I have today contacted the president of North Melbourne Football Club and we have mutually agreed that I will step back from my responsibilities at the club so I can fully cooperate in the investigation.


"As the matters are now subject to an investigation, I will not make any further comment at this stage."

[DOG GOD]

North have delayed Clarkson starting. He was due to start November 1.

North's trade period might not be as smooth as they were hoping for.

I wonder if Logue and tucker are thinking long and hard right now

[GVGjr]

I wonder if Logue and tucker are thinking long and hard right now

If Clarkson was the primary reason for considering North perhaps they should but my guess is that Fremantle are lowballing some players and the money North are offering would be attractive. They're already not thinking North and finals.

[1eyedog]

He's finisihed.

They all are. The fallout from this will be massive and far reaching.

[jazzadogs]

They all are. The fallout from this will be massive and far reaching.

When we say 'finished', James Hird is a chance to be reappointed Essendon coach and Wayne Carey has just been sacked (most likely temporarily) for the umpteenth time. I won't be surprised if there are similar results here.

[1eyedog]

When we say 'finished', James Hird is a chance to be reappointed Essendon coach and Wayne Carey has just been sacked (most likely temporarily) for the umpteenth time. I won't be surprised if there are similar results here.

Just feeling this might blow up.

[azabob]

Just feeling this might blow up.

Have you heard anything further or gut feel?

[1eyedog]

Have you heard anything further or gut feel?

Gut feel. There will be a mssive ground swell in a few days when the Indigenous community digest this and then rightfully leverage off it to evoke change.

Change at the social level may be a bridge too far but I can see Clarko and Fagan being put under enormous pressure. I can also see this moving past the AFL quite quickly and given at least Clarko is denying the allegations a likely outcome is an ugly and damning court case.

Feeling we're at the tip of the iceberg.

[jeemak]

Tend to agree, and I think the three players and their people who have courageously addressed the issue won't be the only ones to have experienced this type of treatment or similar, and further stories could come to light.

[Webby]

I’ve just jumped onto WOOF for the first time in a while to see if there is any trade news. Stumbled across this thread. Sorry I opened it.

Gotta say, I can’t believe the conclusions being jumped to, here. Accusations are just that. The accused haven’t even been questioned as yet - let alone had a chance to defend themselves.

The accusations could be vast extrapolations on what the truth actually is. Misinterpretations of second hand discussions, compounded by resentment, the circling of wagons, personality clashes, unrelated grievances, or just plain misunderstandings.

The tendency to hang, draw and quarter in this forum is a reminder of why I’ve drifted away from it. Very little balance and members falling over themselves to virtue signal, whilst simultaneously knifing individuals like our senior coach on a whim.

It’s made me feel sick.

[hujsh]

I’ve just jumped onto WOOF for the first time in a while to see if there is any trade news. Stumbled across this thread. Sorry I opened it.

Gotta say, I can’t believe the conclusions being jumped to, here. Accusations are just that. The accused haven’t even been questioned as yet - let alone had a chance to defend themselves.

The accusations could be vast extrapolations on what the truth actually is. Misinterpretations of second hand discussions, compounded by resentment, the circling of wagons, personality clashes, unrelated grievances, or just plain misunderstandings.

The tendency to hang, draw and quarter in this forum is a reminder of why I’ve drifted away from it. Very little balance and members falling over themselves to virtue signal, whilst simultaneously knifing individuals like our senior coach on a whim.

It’s made me feel sick.

I love this. It's so great. Anyone who cares about something or is upset by something happening to other people and choose to express it can only be virtue signaling for all those internet points. No one actually is upset by report we all just want to shit on Clarko or the Hawks or whatever.

I'm sure (multiple) players giving their account will benefit greatly from this and won't be hounded for daring to speak out against the treatment they received. I'm sure the woman the coaches wanted to get an abortion loves retelling that particular tale. Likewise I'm sure Hawthorn had all the reason in the world to publish a report so damning on their treatment of young Indigenous players

Stop virtue signaling about how superior you are to everyone else here. Unless you have some insight or reason to doubt what has been reported or the investigation itself that's all you're doing. Not offering balance. Just being contrary.

[Rocket Science]

Pouring one out for those who simply logged on for a bit of trade news but had those hopes cruelly dashed by a spot of purported institutional racism.

Thoughts and prayers. Can't imagine how you must be feeling right now.

[josie]

Slowly reading through it in detail now, my reaction is the same.

Hard to put into words. How can this actually happen?

And we have to ask - if the allegations are proven true - is this the only club where such despicable actions/attitudes prevailed?

[Rocco Jones]

I love this. It's so great. Anyone who cares about something or is upset by something happening to other people and choose to express it can only be virtue signaling for all those internet points. No one actually is upset by report we all just want to shit on Clarko or the Hawks or whatever.

I'm sure (multiple) players giving their account will benefit greatly from this and won't be hounded for daring to speak out against the treatment they received. I'm sure the woman the coaches wanted to get an abortion loves retelling that particular tale. Likewise I'm sure Hawthorn had all the reason in the world to publish a report so damning on their treatment of young Indigenous players

Stop virtue signaling about how superior you are to everyone else here. Unless you have some insight or reason to doubt what has been reported or the investigation itself that's all you're doing. Not offering balance. Just being contrary.

I completely agree with this. Well said.

[bulldogtragic]

I’ve just jumped onto WOOF for the first time in a while to see if there is any trade news. Stumbled across this thread. Sorry I opened it.

Gotta say, I can’t believe the conclusions being jumped to, here. Accusations are just that. The accused haven’t even been questioned as yet - let alone had a chance to defend themselves.

The accusations could be vast extrapolations on what the truth actually is. Misinterpretations of second hand discussions, compounded by resentment, the circling of wagons, personality clashes, unrelated grievances, or just plain misunderstandings.

The tendency to hang, draw and quarter in this forum is a reminder of why I’ve drifted away from it. Very little balance and members falling over themselves to virtue signal, whilst simultaneously knifing individuals like our senior coach on a whim.

It’s made me feel sick.

Sorry to hear it. I hope you’re ok. Are you sick like, depression sick? Or like the sickness of miscarriages internally? Or sick like unsuccessfully attempting to take your life for fifth time?

Just want to understand the pain and sickness that you’re suffering as a victim through this?

Thought & Prayers.

[Sedat]

If the allegations are proven, all involved are finished in the game and not a moment too soon. That stuff is truly heinous. But it goes much, much deeper than that. This is potentially a seismic moment in professional sport in this country. How can senior players and senior executives not know about this? How can the governing body of the code not know? How can the AFLPA not know, who are supposed to represent the players? If proven, it makes a mockery of every stakeholder in the game.

It is always better to err on the side of caution and wait for innocence to be proven otherwise. It's what separates functioning democracies such as ours from savage authoritarian regimes. Everybody with a heart and a conscience would be disgusted beyond words by what has been alleged, but IMO the pile-on should wait until the allegations are proven.

[bulldogtragic]

If the allegations are proven, all involved are finished in the game and not a moment too soon. That stuff is truly heinous. But it goes much, much deeper than that. This is potentially a seismic moment in professional sport in this country. How can senior players and senior executives not know about this? How can the governing body of the code not know? How can the AFLPA not know, who are supposed to represent the players? If proven, it makes a mockery of every stakeholder in the game.

It is always better to err on the side of caution and wait for innocence to be proven otherwise. It's what separates functioning democracies such as ours from savage authoritarian regimes. Everybody with a heart and a conscience woule be disgusted beyond words by what has been alleged, but IMO the pile-on should wait until the allegations are proven.

No doubt every person gets a defence, couldn’t agree more. But the case is such that the report authors found the complainants credible and were backed up by contemporaneous records that support the claims and records of involvement with the AFLPA. The report was found credible enough to immediately send to the the AFEL. These aren’t hearsay claims. There’s multiple ‘direct witnesses’ with contemporaneous records that appear to be corroborative of the claims, such they’ve been deemed credible already. They all get a defence, but the direct and corroborating evidence, while being independent ‘similar fact’ evidence, is enough to discuss this in a very serious way.

I suspect it will be ‘word vs word’ and with powerful interests that the AFEL will be conflicted in doing anything. The key is the contemporaneous records that are referenced in the main article. That may force the issue along with media scrutiny.

A logical discussion pointing out innocent until proven guilty is fine. Being sick about virtue signalling is a bridge to far. I’ve used the word ‘if’ so I’m not sure not sure if I’m a ‘virtue signaller’, but as I have no virtue I know it’s not me!

[Sedat]

No doubt every person gets a defence, couldn’t agree more. But the case is such that the report authors found the complainants credible and were backed up by contemporaneous records that support the claims and records of involvement with the AFLPA. The report was found credible enough to immediately send to the the AFEL. These aren’t hearsay claims. They all get a defence, but the evidence is enough to discuss this in a very serious way.

I suspect it will be ‘word vs word’ and with powerful interests that the AFEL will be conflicted in doing anything. The key is the contemporaneous records that are referenced in the main article. That may force the issue along with media scrutiny.

A logical discussion pointing out innocent until proven guilty is fine. Being sick about virtue signalling is a bridge to far. I’ve used the word ‘if’ so I’m not sure not sure if a virtue signaller, but as I have no virtue I know it’s not me!
I think almost all of us are on a unity ticket with regard to discussing this in depth and in a serious way. There is no wriggle room out of this for all involved. And by 'all involved' I mean every stakeholder that I mentioned previously, not just those directly involved with the allegations. As I said, this goes way beyond the alleged actions of 3 senior staff members from one footy club. This will go nuclear.

[bulldogtragic]

I think almost all of us are on a unity ticket with regard to discussing this in depth and in a serious way. There is no wriggle room out of this for all involved. And by 'all involved' I mean every stakeholder that I mentioned previously, not just those directly involved with the allegations. As I said, this goes way beyond the alleged actions of 3 senior staff members from one footy club. This will go nuclear.

For once the AFEL have got to do its job on integrity. If they go with ‘it’s was a joke’ and all three men lost their phones at the same time with Michael Talia then… who knows when the nuclear fallout ends and how far it goes. I hope the AFEL understands just how big this investigation is in the history of the league. Justice needs to be done, but also seen to be done. Not their strong suit.

[bornadog]

All I can add is stuff the coaches, I feel for the players in this and no body else. To be subjected to this behaviour is truly and utterly disgusting. I hope they have been getting help.

[1eyedog]

I’ve just jumped onto WOOF for the first time in a while to see if there is any trade news. Stumbled across this thread. Sorry I opened it.

Gotta say, I can’t believe the conclusions being jumped to, here. Accusations are just that. The accused haven’t even been questioned as yet - let alone had a chance to defend themselves.

The accusations could be vast extrapolations on what the truth actually is. Misinterpretations of second hand discussions, compounded by resentment, the circling of wagons, personality clashes, unrelated grievances, or just plain misunderstandings.

The tendency to hang, draw and quarter in this forum is a reminder of why I’ve drifted away from it. Very little balance and members falling over themselves to virtue signal, whilst simultaneously knifing individuals like our senior coach on a whim.

It’s made me feel sick.

Sorry you feel like that. I've always enjoyed your contributions I hope this doesn't keep you away.

[bornadog]

For once the AFEL have got to do its job on integrity. If they go with ‘it’s was a joke’ and all three men lost their phones at the same time with Michael Talia then… who knows when the nuclear fallout ends and how far it goes. I hope the AFEL understands just how big this investigation is in the history of the league. Justice needs to be done, but also seen to be done. Not their strong suit.

The Hawks have had an external investigation and found lots of wrong doing and that has forced the AFL to also have an external investigation headed up by a KC. The AFL cannot wriggle out of this one.

Thank goodness the ABC published the story.

[Webby]

To be clear, what makes me feel sick is SOME OF the commentary I’ve read in this thread suggesting that 1. the accusations are automatically true, 2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time; 3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

To me, that is both morally and intellectually weak.

So yeah, the character assassination of OUR coach based on a report which no one here has read and which none of the actual accused have had a chance to defend themselves is sickening. To think that people are Lindy Chamberlaining Luke Beveridge on a Dogs forum is SICKENING.

But cue typically predictable remarks about how I’m putting myself ahead of alleged victims and sarcastic barbs like “I hope you’re okay” are piss poor. Serves me right for jumping back on.

[hujsh]

To be clear, what makes me feel sick is SOME OF the commentary I’ve read in this thread suggesting that 1. the accusations are automatically true, 2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time; 3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

To me, that is both morally and intellectually weak.

So yeah, the character assassination of OUR coach based on a report which no one here has read and which none of the actual accused have had a chance to defend themselves is sickening. To think that people are Lindy Chamberlaining Luke Beveridge on a Dogs forum is SICKENING.

But cue typically predictable remarks about how I’m putting myself ahead of alleged victims and sarcastic barbs like “I hope you’re okay” are piss poor. Serves me right for jumping back on.

Let's go point by point


1. the accusations are automatically true,

Not automatic but very unlikely to be untrue given what we know


2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time;

Well I think this is a fact. At least for part of the period in question


3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!



Don't believe I've seen either of the above. Speculation on whether he might know but right now it seems likely he'd be named if he was since Clarkson and Fagan were.

If you want to defend Bevo at least point out the comments you found so offensive so we know what you're talking about.

Don't get mad people for not responding favourably if you regurgitate culture war BS about virtue signaling, directing it towards the majority of the board (implied in your post) and casting doubts on the statements of the victims that seem entirely credible just because there's the slight hint it might harm Beveridge. I don't think what you wrote reads the way you think it does. It doesn't make you seem more logical than anyone else here. Just driven by different emotions.

If Bevo is the person he seems to be and presents himself as he should be fine. He'd not have been involved in the actions alleged. If he was involved then it's maybe time to move on. I doubt anyone will 'knife' him before at least having allegations directed at him. The question of whether Clarkson and Fagan were involved and the allegations are true seems much more certain. Not 100% but enough to take this all VERY seriously.

[Grantysghost]

To be clear, what makes me feel sick is SOME OF the commentary I’ve read in this thread suggesting that 1. the accusations are automatically true, 2. That Luke Beveridge would’ve been at Hawthorn at the time; 3. He therefore must’ve known about it: and 4. Beveridge is therefore somehow complicit..!

To me, that is both morally and intellectually weak.

So yeah, the character assassination of OUR coach based on a report which no one here has read and which none of the actual accused have had a chance to defend themselves is sickening. To think that people are Lindy Chamberlaining Luke Beveridge on a Dogs forum is SICKENING.

But cue typically predictable remarks about how I’m putting myself ahead of alleged victims and sarcastic barbs like “I hope you’re okay” are piss poor. Serves me right for jumping back on.

I think most were just asking the question and hoping he wasn’t involved so being protective.

My opinion is if he was then he should be of course given due process, but the allegations are so serious if he was involved I’d have a hard time following a side he coaches.

[jeemak]

As always Matthew Stokes brings calm and reasoned perspective via this article (and for the record, I'm sure he's not bloody calm and is doing an amazing job in remaining reasoned):

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/goyder-and-mclachlan-need-to-take-responsibility-20220921-p5bjxh.html

Voices like his are the voices we need to be hearing right now, not the white anglo-male voices who have access to the megaphone cupboard. He's absolutely right in his assessment of the AFLs leadership and it's the right time for a change at the top and a change in attitude to go with it.

The concept of virtue signaling has always been a bit weird to me, I mean, what else do critics of it want signaled if not virtue (that's a philosophical digression that won't serve any purpose here)? However, if it was to be an accusation levelled at anyone let's not level it here and actually look to the organisation that uses its indigenous stakeholders as a marketing tool when it suits, but continually lets those stakeholders down through a lack of action and meaningful change in how their past, present and future are treated.

The majority of the balance of stakeholders are ready for change, and the majority of those who aren't just need some leadership to help them on the journey. I'm not sympathetic towards the latter, but I can try to understand the difficulty they have with change and they'll never get there if they don't have people of influence rallying them to move forwards.

[Scraggers]

Wow … I am mortified to think that in this day and age this sort of treatment of First Nation people is possible. But then again I’m not. The cultural divide that is mostly unspoken in Australia is incredulous. I’m not just talking racism, I’m talking about a complete lack of understanding of the differences of culture. The article talks about the importance of family for an indigenous person, but as most read that, they put a non-indigenous perspective on it. It goes so much deeper than needing mum and dad close by or having contact with the wife/girlfriend/partner (both which were allegedly denied). The First Nation family is more what “white Australia” would consider the broader community. Their strength (not just support or confidence) is in their family bonds. To not be with family, to be denied the ability to be with your child/ren, to be told to disown your child … just WOW.

If any part of these allegations are true, Clarkson and Fagan (and all others that are implicated in the report) must be removed from their position/s of power immediately. They must undergo further education to gain a greater understanding of First Nation culture and heritage. They must meet with these families (if willing) and apologise.

I am truly mortified by the extent of these accusations and hope these players and their families will find peace.

[jazzadogs]

I think the conversation has been pretty balanced. Shock at what we've read, but almost everyone has said "if they were involved..." or similar. The questions on Bevo were entirely reasonable - he was at Hawthorn at the time, and I think these allegations cloud everyone involved in that club until more is known.

[bornadog]

I think the conversation has been pretty balanced. Shock at what we've read, but almost everyone has said "if they were involved..." or similar. The questions on Bevo were entirely reasonable - he was at Hawthorn at the time, and I think these allegations cloud everyone involved in that club until more is known.

We actually don't know the period the allegations took place ie the exact dates, so other than the named coaches, we don't know if any other coaches involvement at the club was during the same time.

[GVGjr]

I think the conversation has been pretty balanced. Shock at what we've read, but almost everyone has said "if they were involved..." or similar. The questions on Bevo were entirely reasonable - he was at Hawthorn at the time, and I think these allegations cloud everyone involved in that club until more is known.

Same here, it's a massive story and very emotional to read. It has the potential to have a wide reaching impact to many clubs and it's on the AFL to get it right. I think Gil need to delay his departure from the AFL and see this through before handing the keys too the door over to someone else.

[MrMahatma]

Same here, it's a massive story and very emotional to read. It has the potential to have a wide reaching impact to many clubs and it's on the AFL to get it right. I think Gil need to delay his departure from the AFL and see this through before handing the keys too the door over to someone else.

Maybe… or maybe Gil and his approach to governance and reviews is part of the problem? Has he ever done anything that would give us reason to believe that this won’t be “managed” and prob just the lesser known involved take the fall? Gil’s AFL will want Clarkson coaching North. Will want Brisbane to remain competitive.

I have little faith that Gil can and will deliver anything meaningful on this one.

[chef]

Interesting that channel 9 thinks its a good idea having McGuire on a panel discussing this. Seems a bit tone deaf.

Surprised none of the young indigenous kids didn't reach out to Burgoyne, my brother in law is am indigenous Hawthorn supporter and hes cancelled his and his kids memberships. He's pretty shattered.

[bornadog]

This bloke will have alot to answer for.


Hawthorn’s former player development manager has stepped down “indefinitely” from his role at a prestigious Melbourne private school amid the fallout from a report into alleged racism at the club.
Caulfield Grammar emailed parents on Wednesday night to inform them Jason Burt, who was previously Hawthorn’s player development manager, had taken a leave of absence from his position at the school.

[SonofScray]

This bloke will have alot to answer for.

He’s going to get the brunt of it, by the looks of it.

Out of interest, what the hell are the welfare officers etc in the club doing?

[Mofra]

It does make you wonder if Clarko getting moved on a year early, on full pay, meant the Hawks knew something was wrong.
Then commissioning the report...

[Throughandthrough]

It does make you wonder if Clarko getting moved on a year early, on full pay, meant the Hawks knew something was wrong.
Then commissioning the report...


Don’t think Kennett will see anything wrong with anything Hawthorn has done

[Scorlibo]

Like everyone I've found the allegations appalling, and although I respect the right of response on the part of those involved I must say given the level of detail provided, the number of players providing these details and the fact that these players were prompted to provide insight by Hawthorn, I struggle to understand how (as Clarkson claims) there could be no wrongdoing.

The racial angle is obvious, it seems none of this could have occurred without being enabled by an attitude that prejudices the handling of first nations players. Yet supposing this did happen to non-indigenous players, the fallout would also be severe -

There is no role for any workplace in determining who their employees see in their private lives, where the families of their employees live, when their employees have kids or who they have kids with. There is no role for workplaces in furnishing employees with new sim cards to remove them from contact with their families, or in being present for a break up conversation.

Therefore I hope this episode can trigger action on two fronts: the prejudicial treatment of first nations players and the boundaries between work and home life for AFL players generally.

[bornadog]

He’s going to get the brunt of it, by the looks of it.

Out of interest, what the hell are the welfare officers etc in the club doing?

I thing you are right. The coaches will say they knew nothing and Brunt will be the one copping it for everyone.

[Raw Toast]

For what it's worth, I wrote about the devastating allegations at Hawthorn (https://theconversation.com/as-the-2022-aflm-season-comes-to-a-close-the-game-must-ask-itself-some-difficult-questions-especially-on-racism-190847) as part of a broader assessment of Gillon McLachlan's tenure as CEO.

[1eyedog]

I thing you are right. The coaches will say they knew nothing and Brunt will be the one copping it for everyone.

The only issue with this is the victims have repeatedly stated that Fagan and Clarkson were in the room and were the ones saying these heinous things.

How do they escape this?

[bornadog]

The only issue with this is the victims have repeatedly stated that Fagan and Clarkson were in the room and were the ones saying these heinous things.

How do they escape this?

I am giving the cynical view in me. I don't trust the AFL

[SonofScray]

For what it's worth, I wrote about the devastating allegations at Hawthorn (https://theconversation.com/as-the-2022-aflm-season-comes-to-a-close-the-game-must-ask-itself-some-difficult-questions-especially-on-racism-190847) as part of a broader assessment of Gillon McLachlan's tenure as CEO.

Thanks for sharing. As we can reasonably have come to expect, a really well written piece that speaks to issues important right at the heart of the game. The comments about the game seeking to own indigenous folk and the land really hit the mark when I reflect on Sheedy and his influence and plaudits received for supporting his “boys.”

[bulldogtragic]

Fagan’s right of reply:

Brisbane Lions coach Chris Fagan has reportedly denied allegations of wrongdoing against First Nations players during his time at Hawthorn Football Club.

Citing an independent review commissioned by Hawthorn, the ABC reported yesterday that the club’s staff had separated players from their families and controlled communication between them so they could focus on their careers.

In a statement provided to the AFL website, Fagan said he would cooperate fully with an AFL-ordered independent investigation into certain experiences of Indigenous players during their careers with the Hawks.

“I was shocked and deeply distressed by the allegations reported in the media yesterday concerning my time at the Hawthorn Football Club,” Fagan said in the statement.

“I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club. I have had very positive relationships with First Nations players throughout my many years in football, and, indeed players from different racial and ethnic groups.

“I intend to defend myself. It is my hope that people will judge me based upon the way I actually conduct myself and not by what is written in the media. I support and welcome the investigation announced by the AFL yesterday. I intend to participate fully in the investigation and look forward to being heard and being accorded due process and fairness.”

Former Hawthorn coach Alastair Clarkson, who is also at the centre of the allegations, yesterday denied any allegation of wrongdoing or misconduct as well.

Clarkson was due to begin as senior coach at North Melbourne in November, but he announced yesterday he would delay starting work at his new club in light of the harrowing claims of racism.

[1eyedog]

I am giving the cynical view in me. I don't trust the AFL

Do you think this will end up in the courts?

[DOG GOD]

Do you think this will end up in the courts?
Surely will have to, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Clarkson and Fagan if found not guilty, sue for deformation

[Bulldog Joe]

The allegations are very disturbing and any that are proven against specific individuals should lead to life bans for those individuals.

I know we see unforgivable acts come to light regularly which is a sad indictment of the human animal.

It seems those with power regularly abuse it and it has occurred forever. With modern insights it is just intolerable.

With the Hawthorn situation, it seems that all from the playing group (claim) have/had no knowledge.
This would indicate that those subject to these extreme tactics were so traumatised they could not share with those members of the group who may have been able to help. Even other indigenous players you would expect to be there for them.

This also appears typical of human behaviour where the victims are the ones who feel guilty for the trauma inflicted on them.

[Grantysghost]

Just have to let the process play out.

In terms of the accused's responses, it's pretty cookie cutter and what you'd expect.
Emphatic denials.

[bornadog]

Do you think this will end up in the courts?

It is always possible. We will know once the review takes place and will depend on the outcome

[Rocco Jones]

Do you think this will end up in the courts?

I think it depends on a few things.

If the findings from the external review deem they were guilty and the evidence isn't extremely clear, as in multiple witnesses, documents et al and they think they are a chance to win whatever version of appeal/defamation/case they take to court, I think they definitely will. If they actually did it and are denying it, they will probably be okay with continuing to lie/being in denial as far as they can go (unless it gets too taxing I guess).

If they didn't do it, it's mostly fabricated (collusion between different parties, I know I don't believe this), they should keep fighting as much as they can.

If the external review say they are innocent and they know a defamation case can bring up issues (i.e. AFL clearing them in a Talia brothers way), I think they will leave well enough alone and not risk a defamation case.

[jeemak]

For what it's worth, I wrote about the devastating allegations at Hawthorn (https://theconversation.com/as-the-2022-aflm-season-comes-to-a-close-the-game-must-ask-itself-some-difficult-questions-especially-on-racism-190847) as part of a broader assessment of Gillon McLachlan's tenure as CEO.

Great read mate, awesome stuff.

[bulldogtragic]

I think it depends on a few things.

If the findings from the external review deem they were guilty and the evidence isn't extremely clear, as in multiple witnesses, documents et al and they think they are a chance to win whatever version of appeal/defamation/case they take to court, I think they definitely will. If they actually did it and are denying it, they will probably be okay with continuing to lie/being in denial as far as they can go (unless it gets too taxing I guess).

If they didn't do it, it's mostly fabricated (collusion between different parties, I know I don't believe this), they should keep fighting as much as they can.

If the external review say they are innocent and they know a defamation case can bring up issues (i.e. AFL clearing them in a Talia brothers way), I think they will leave well enough alone and not risk a defamation case.

I’m not sure there’s a defamation case here. Especially if Fagan & Clarkson keep their jobs and there’s no financial damage on top of alleged reputations damage.

I’ve been following the Ben Roberts-Smith case closely, and there’s more of a case there, and it’s a close run thing, and it’s about war crimes and being a murderer (which is another sphere altogether). The ABC will use ‘truth’ as a defence to the publication. Factually they’ve reported an investigation was done. True. They’ve interviewed multiple sources and presumably vetted the evidence in deciding to report it with a reasonable belief what they’ve been told is ‘true’. Importantly, I read they offered both men (plus the development fella) the opportunity to respond to questions and the allegations BEFORE the report was published. It says they did not respond.

I imagine a court would rightfully point to the last part. If Fagan & Clarkson wanted the record corrected, or wanted to deny the allegations, or wanted to produce proof that the story was materially ‘untrue’, or wanted to commence a ‘concerns notice’ seeking them to stop the story, or wanted to seek an injunction by a court to temporarily halt the story - then the ABC is saying they have them that chance to take any of those actions and they didn’t take it. If the ABC gave them a reasonable time to respond (which is not exactly clear) then they have to get around that as well as proving that ‘truth’ can’t be used a defence. Not an easy or cheap thing to do from where I sit.

I think it’s simple. If the journo, management and lawyers from the ABC did their jobs right they should be fine to defend a potential defamation claim, whether or not a subsequent investigation determines anything different. As a tax payer, and someone interested in fairness, I hope the ABC dotted their i’s and crossed their t’s. I think we will see soon enough though, and it’s pretty simple, they’ve got the right to claim they’ve been potentially defamed. The ABC has the right to reveal to a court why they aren’t on the hook for it. The media circus will be next level if that happens. Will that be worse than just the story out there and do the coaches want to pump in millions in lawyers fees on a tight run thing? Lots of water under the bridge irrespective of what the AFEL find/claim to have found.

[Rocco Jones]

I’m not sure there’s a defamation case here. Especially if Fagan & Clarkson keep their jobs and there’s no financial damage on top of alleged reputations damage.

I’ve been following the Ben Roberts-Smith case closely, and there’s more of a case there, and it’s a close run thing, and it’s about war crimes and being a murderer (which is another sphere altogether). The ABC will use ‘truth’ as a defence to the publication. Factually they’ve reported an investigation was done. True. They’ve interviewed multiple sources and presumably vetted the evidence in deciding to report it with a reasonable belief what they’ve been told is ‘true’. Importantly, I read they offered both men (plus the development fella) the opportunity to respond to questions and the allegations BEFORE the report was published. It says they did not respond.

I imagine a court would rightfully point to the last part. If Fagan & Clarkson wanted the record corrected, or wanted to deny the allegations, or wanted to produce proof that the story was materially ‘untrue’, or wanted to commence a ‘concerns notice’ seeking them to stop the story, or wanted to seek an injunction by a court to temporarily halt the story - then the ABC is saying they have them that chance to take any of those actions and they didn’t take it. If the ABC gave them a reasonable time to respond (which is not exactly clear) then they have to get around that as well as proving that ‘truth’ can’t be used a defence. Not an easy or cheap thing to do from where I sit.

I think it’s simple. If the journo, management and lawyers from the ABC did their jobs right they should be fine to defend a potential defamation claim, whether or not a subsequent investigation determines anything different. As a tax payer, and someone interested in fairness, I hope the ABC dotted their i’s and crossed their t’s. I think we will see soon enough though, and it’s pretty simple, they’ve got the right to claim they’ve been potentially defamed. The ABC has the right to reveal to a court why they aren’t on the hook for it. The media circus will be next level if that happens. Will that be worse than just the story out there and do the coaches want to pump in millions in lawyers fees on a tight run thing? Lots of water under the bridge irrespective of what the AFEL find/claim to have found.

Excellent post BT.

[Topdog]

Journo apparently sent an email asking them to respond within 24 hours and then left a voicemail asking if they wanted more time

[bulldogtragic]

Journo apparently sent an email asking them to respond within 24 hours and then left a voicemail asking if they wanted more time

Seems pretty reasonable to me. If even for them to ask for another 24 hours or take any actions open to them.

[Stevo]

Journo apparently sent an email asking them to respond within 24 hours and then left a voicemail asking if they wanted more time

You can understand that the optics aren't great as this all came though just before the GF but my word it needed to come out. The journo has done more than the right thing by Hawthorn and the AFL.

[bornadog]

From The Age


A former Hawthorn assistant coach gave evidence to the club’s cultural review, which sources said supported parts of the Indigenous players’ testimony about their alleged mistreatment.

Sources familiar with the review, who were not authorised to comment publicly, confirmed to The Age the involvement of the former assistant coach, who worked under Alastair Clarkson at the Hawks, as the four Indigenous families at the centre of the racism scandal engaged renowned troubleshooting lawyer Leon Zwier to represent them.

The sources said the former assistant coach supported aspects of the families’ accounts.

The Age cannot confirm which particular incidents were backed up, and is not suggesting the assistant coach’s involvement proves any of the allegations.

[Grantysghost]

From The Age

Bevo

[Stevo]

Bevo

Statement or speculation?
That would be an intense story.

[Grantysghost]

Statement or speculation?
That would be an intense story.

Speculation.

[bornadog]

Bevo

You don't know that. Could be a number of assistants.

2013

Assistant coaches


Leon Cameron (Forward)
Adam Yze (Forward)
Brendon Bolton (Midfield)
Adam Simpson (Midfield)
Luke Beveridge (Defence)
Damian Monkhorst (Ruck)


2014

Assistant coaches


Luke Beveridge.
Brendon Bolton.
Cameron Bruce.
Brett Ratten.
Damian Monkhorst (Ruck)
Damian Carroll (Football Academy Development Coordinator)
Adem Yze (Development)
Brent Guerra (Part-time Development coach)

[bulldogtragic]

So the next phase begins.

Fagan & Clarkson push back vigorously. Media gets given more evidence to push back in kind…

[bulldogtragic]

You don't know that. Could be a number of assistants.

Over that time, over a dozen assistants at a guess. I’m not prepared to guess. The media or AFEL can name names.

[bornadog]

Over that time, over a dozen assistants at a guess. I’m not prepared to guess. The media or AFEL can name names.

I have listed some on previous post

[Grantysghost]

You don't know that. Could be a number of assistants.

2013

Assistant coaches


Leon Cameron (Forward)
Adam Yze (Forward)
Brendon Bolton (Midfield)
Adam Simpson (Midfield)
Luke Beveridge (Defence)
Damian Monkhorst (Ruck)


2014

Assistant coaches


Luke Beveridge.
Brendon Bolton.
Cameron Bruce.
Brett Ratten.
Damian Monkhorst (Ruck)
Damian Carroll (Football Academy Development Coordinator)
Adem Yze (Development)
Brent Guerra (Part-time Development coach)





I don't it was speculation. But it was Bevo.

[bornadog]

I don't it was speculation. But it was Bevo.

I don't understand your allegation, and you do have to be careful writing that.

[GVGjr]

Over that time, over a dozen assistants at a guess. I’m not prepared to guess. The media or AFEL can name names.

Yes, it's on the AFL to release the names of people that need to make themselves available.
Such a tragic position the competition finds itself in.

[Grantysghost]

I don't understand your allegation, and you do have to be careful writing that.

OK, it may have been Bevo.

[jeemak]

So the next phase begins.

Fagan & Clarkson push back vigorously. Media gets given more evidence to push back in kind…

The language from the coaches is interesting. Deny wrong doing, claimed they were denied due process.

What process are they talking about, in lieu of the investigation only commencing with the integrity unit now?

They've gone super-defencive straight off the bat which tells me they're *!*!*!*!ed.

[jeemak]

I don't it was speculation. But it was Bevo.


I don't understand your allegation, and you do have to be careful writing that.


Yes, it's on the AFL to release the names of people that need to make themselves available.
Such a tragic position the competition finds itself in.


OK, it may have been Bevo.

If anyone sided with the players to do the right thing then it would have been Sam Power, not Bevo.

[Grantysghost]

The language from the coaches is interesting. Deny wrong doing, claimed they were denied due process.

What process are they talking about, in lieu of the investigation only commencing with the integrity unit now?

They've gone super-defencive straight off the bat which tells me they're *!*!*!*!ed.

Agree that's the classic play.

But the level of allegation probably means there's no other play?

[Grantysghost]

If anyone sided with the players to do the right thing and see justice done then it would have been Sam Power, not Bevo.

So wise.

[Grantysghost]

I don't understand your allegation, and you do have to be careful writing that.

Bad to clarify I was saying if anyone would be honest and stick up for the players I'd expect it to be Luke.

[jeemak]

Agree that's the classic play.

But the level of allegation probably means there's no other play?

I would have thought the denial/ defend the position rigourously would have been sufficient, but to talk about due process etc. puts too much mayo on it for mine.

But I'm not a PR agent, and perhaps these guys can actually just deny and deny it until it goes away with the AFL's help.

[Grantysghost]

I would have thought the denial/ defend the position rigourously would have been sufficient, but to talk about due process etc. puts too much mayo on it for mine.

But I'm not a PR agent, and perhaps these guys can actually just deny and deny it until it goes away with the AFL's help.

Sadly I believe that to be the case.

[1eyedog]

I’m not sure there’s a defamation case here. Especially if Fagan & Clarkson keep their jobs and there’s no financial damage on top of alleged reputations damage.

I’ve been following the Ben Roberts-Smith case closely, and there’s more of a case there, and it’s a close run thing, and it’s about war crimes and being a murderer (which is another sphere altogether). The ABC will use ‘truth’ as a defence to the publication. Factually they’ve reported an investigation was done. True. They’ve interviewed multiple sources and presumably vetted the evidence in deciding to report it with a reasonable belief what they’ve been told is ‘true’. Importantly, I read they offered both men (plus the development fella) the opportunity to respond to questions and the allegations BEFORE the report was published. It says they did not respond.

I imagine a court would rightfully point to the last part. If Fagan & Clarkson wanted the record corrected, or wanted to deny the allegations, or wanted to produce proof that the story was materially ‘untrue’, or wanted to commence a ‘concerns notice’ seeking them to stop the story, or wanted to seek an injunction by a court to temporarily halt the story - then the ABC is saying they have them that chance to take any of those actions and they didn’t take it. If the ABC gave them a reasonable time to respond (which is not exactly clear) then they have to get around that as well as proving that ‘truth’ can’t be used a defence. Not an easy or cheap thing to do from where I sit.

I think it’s simple. If the journo, management and lawyers from the ABC did their jobs right they should be fine to defend a potential defamation claim, whether or not a subsequent investigation determines anything different. As a tax payer, and someone interested in fairness, I hope the ABC dotted their i’s and crossed their t’s. I think we will see soon enough though, and it’s pretty simple, they’ve got the right to claim they’ve been potentially defamed. The ABC has the right to reveal to a court why they aren’t on the hook for it. The media circus will be next level if that happens. Will that be worse than just the story out there and do the coaches want to pump in millions in lawyers fees on a tight run thing? Lots of water under the bridge irrespective of what the AFEL find/claim to have found.

Nah its not defamation it's a worksafe issue as Hawthorn were the employer. It's also possibly a health and safety act issue, a negligence issue and a breach of duty of care as well.

[merantau]

The colonial mindset lives on. "We know what's best for you", actually means: "We will do whatever it takes to get what WE want. You have no rights so just get on with it or f off."

That, I'm afraid is the brutal reality. There is still a long way to go before things get better. Daisy Pearce spoke so well on SEN. She gets it - why don't others?

[bulldogtragic]

Nah its not defamation it's a worksafe issue as Hawthorn were the employer. It's also possibly a health and safety act issue, a negligence issue and a breach of duty of care as well.

I’m with you there. There’s strict time frames on personal injury in Victoria so I’m not sure they get in (3 years from being aware of an injury). Unless they’ve done something already. Ironically, Kennett changed the personal injury and workplace injury laws incredibly tight and Bracks didn’t fully unwind the changes.

Hawthorn on the other hand with WorkSafe might be on the hook, if WorkSafe decide to look into it.

Something else I’ve heard reported by some in the press is that the claims are ‘anonymous’. Which isn’t true. The players identities are 100% known. Their names have been only de-identified for privacy, like say a police informant. The people who count know who police informer ‘Fuzzy Dunlop’ is, even if nobody else does.

[EasternWest]

Good ole Fuzzy Dunlop.

This is a really interesting thread and while the topic is unpalatable, I'm enjoying the discussion around it.

[azabob]

Fuzzy Dunlop; next level of police informant.

Hawks have prior history in behaving this way with how Cyril Rioli was treated.

I am finding it hard to believe that Hodge and co didn’t know what Rioli went through and I’m struggling to believe they didn’t know what was happening here.

Eddie Betts summed it up when Mark Robinson said to Betts “so you believe all the allegations ” and Eddie replies with “yes, as it keeps happening”. By that he meant another example comes to light.

Tony Armstrong also shed some insightful perspective.

Clearly this is a wider issue than just sport. I’m no where near educated enough on the subject and am trying to learn and understand more. Following Raw Toast on social media helps; but as a white male, who is early 40’s, I’ll never truly understand. Advocacy is tough and draining. I can’t imagine what Eddie Betts goes through each time he needs to front the cameras and educate the wider population on simple right and wrong.

[bornadog]

Nah its not defamation it's a worksafe issue as Hawthorn were the employer. It's also possibly a health and safety act issue, a negligence issue and a breach of duty of care as well.

Spot on. Good article on it in The Age: ‘No question’: Hawthorn likely faces legal action over Indigenous player claims (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/no-question-hawthorn-likely-faces-legal-action-over-indigenous-player-claims-20220922-p5bk7e.html)

All the big gun Law Firms right on to it

[1eyedog]

Spot on. Good article on it in The Age: ‘No question’: Hawthorn likely faces legal action over Indigenous player claims (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/no-question-hawthorn-likely-faces-legal-action-over-indigenous-player-claims-20220922-p5bk7e.html)

All the big gun Law Firms right on to it

Yeah I thought this would move quickly into that space.

[The bulldog tragician]

Human rights breaches are what should occur.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

This is all so, so sad.

[mjp]

I am finding it hard to believe that Hodge and co didn’t know what Rioli went through and I’m struggling to believe they didn’t know what was happening here.

I don't. Footy change-rooms are interesting places and footy change-rooms with First Nations players are even more interesting. The First Nations boys will sit TOGETHER. They will do everything TOGETHER. They will HAPPILY engage with anyone who wants to engage (as Jack Trengove will tell you from his time at Port) but it can be a hard 'circle' to approach. Hodge and co could have been 'friendly' with Rioli and enjoyed playing with him without ever being part of the 'circle'...which would mean he would have always remained an outsider.

Let me re-iterate. The 'CIRCLE' will be open to anyone. But anyone who wants to be at a more than 'hey/seeya' relationship level is going to have to make the first move. The First Nations boys will be WELCOMING but they wont INVITE you to join...

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I've said this stuff before - people in Victoria, generally speaking - don't have enough experience/exposure in talking too/spending time with First Nations people to actually 'get' this sort of thing. Watch the 'brother boys' from oppo teams chatting together after a game...there is an unspoken connection for so many of them BECAUSE they have fought through the sort of things being reported by Jackson to get where they are...






Eddie Betts summed it up when Mark Robinson said to Betts “so you believe all the allegations ” and Eddie replies with “yes, as it keeps happening”. By that he meant another example comes to light.

This part is frustrating. These aren't 'allegations'. Jackson is reporting what he has been told. Fagan and Clarkson were offered right of reply. They chose not to respond. This part of it is doing my head in and I just don't understand why so many people in the community seem to think that Jackson would have written an article with a foundation in b.s. They aren't allegations. This happened. The details of exactly WHO is responsible (here's a hint - it's Andrew Newland) remain somewhat unclear but there is no 'believe/don't believe' element to the story.

[EasternWest]

I don't. Footy change-rooms are interesting places and footy change-rooms with First Nations players are even more interesting. The First Nations boys will sit TOGETHER. They will do everything TOGETHER. They will HAPPILY engage with anyone who wants to engage (as Jack Trengove will tell you from his time at Port) but it can be a hard 'circle' to approach. Hodge and co could have been 'friendly' with Rioli and enjoyed playing with him without ever being part of the 'circle'...which would mean he would have always remained an outsider.

Let me re-iterate. The 'CIRCLE' will be open to anyone. But anyone who wants to be at a more than 'hey/seeya' relationship level is going to have to make the first move. The First Nations boys will be WELCOMING but they wont INVITE you to join...

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I've said this stuff before - people in Victoria, generally speaking - don't have enough experience/exposure in talking too/spending time with First Nations people to actually 'get' this sort of thing. Watch the 'brother boys' from oppo teams chatting together after a game...there is an unspoken connection for so many of them BECAUSE they have fought through the sort of things being reported by Jackson to get where they are...






This part is frustrating. These aren't 'allegations'. Jackson is reporting what he has been told. Fagan and Clarkson were offered right of reply. They chose not to respond. This part of it is doing my head in and I just don't understand why so many people in the community seem to think that Jackson would have written an article with a foundation in b.s. They aren't allegations. This happened. The details of exactly WHO is responsible (here's a hint - it's Andrew Newland) remain somewhat unclear but there is no 'believe/don't believe' element to the story.

They don't believe because they don't want to believe. They're not interested. The "whydonttheyjustgetoverit" gang would rather complain about cancel culture.

[Topdog]

Burgoyne saying he didn't know is the only part that puzzles me.

And mjp fully agree about Victorians just not getting it.
I think i had seen a handful of first nations people in my first 15 years.

[SonofScray]

Scuttlebutt doing the rounds. Unverified and ultimately, likely to be fiction but they posit:

- AFL house aware of the report and allegations well in advance of when ABC went public.
- Fagan in strife. B Scott to replace him.
- Sheedy was aware of allegations against Clarkson via contacts with indigenous community and that’s why he sabotaged EOC efforts to get him in. Helps with his efforts to reinstate Hird.
- Yze about to get caught up in it all.


Some real long bows being drawn in those rumours, especially the jerking off over Sheeds as some sort of club saviour, white saviour, mega mind.

Has a Demetriou era stink to it though, so perhaps there’s a tiny sliver of truth in amongst all the bull dust.

[GVGjr]

Scuttlebutt doing the rounds. Unverified and ultimately, likely to be fiction but they posit:

- AFL house aware of the report and allegations well in advance of when ABC went public.
- Fagan in strife. B Scott to replace him.
- Sheedy was aware of allegations against Clarkson via contacts with indigenous community and that’s why he sabotaged EOC efforts to get him in. Helps with his efforts to reinstate Hird.
- Yze about to get caught up in it all.


Some real long bows being drawn in those rumours, especially the jerking off over Sheeds as some sort of club saviour, white saviour, mega mind.

Has a Demetriou era stink to it though, so perhaps there’s a tiny sliver of truth in amongst all the bull dust.

That one has been doing the rounds since Tuesday I think. It's hard to know which versions might be correct.

[Topdog]

The afl stated they knew about it once the report was given to Hawks, approximately 2 weeks before the abc news.
It's a good blend of fact and fiction by an Essendon supporter

[SonofScray]

The afl stated they knew about it once the report was given to Hawks, approximately 2 weeks before the abc news.
It's a good blend of fact and fiction by an Essendon supporter
It certainly reads like Sheedy fan fiction from an EOC fan.

[Mofra]

Tony Armstrong also shed some insightful perspective.
Toby spoke really well about it.

The NITV footy panel was tough viewing. Gilbert was absolutely passionate and some of the panel were close to tears.
This is an issue that cuts deep and I think Eddie Betts is correct - every club should have a similar review. This may be an opporunity to change league-wide behavior for good.

[Mofra]

The afl stated they knew about it once the report was given to Hawks, approximately 2 weeks before the abc news.
It's a good blend of fact and fiction by an Essendon supporter
It was reported to have been referred to the AFL Integrity commission as soon as it was complete, which would be standard practice.

[bornadog]

Peter Gordon to represent AFL. (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/softly-softly-not-working-indigenous-senator-blasts-afl-over-racism-20220923-p5bkei.html)



The AFL have engaged legal heavy hitter and former Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon to represent the league, ahead of an independent investigation into Hawthorn’s treatment of their Indigenous players.

Gordon, a senior partner at Gordon Legal, has previously acted for the AFL in other legal matters, including when former Magpie Heritier Lumumba instigated legal action against the AFL in the Supreme Court.


His appointment came on a day the federal government’s leading figure on reconciliation blasted the league over its treatment of First Nations players, while Hawthorn chief executive Justin Reeves admitted the claims had been “disturbing”, and it was now “an important time for reflection, listening and learning”.

Press link above for full story

[azabob]

I don't. Footy change-rooms are interesting places and footy change-rooms with First Nations players are even more interesting. The First Nations boys will sit TOGETHER. They will do everything TOGETHER. They will HAPPILY engage with anyone who wants to engage (as Jack Trengove will tell you from his time at Port) but it can be a hard 'circle' to approach. Hodge and co could have been 'friendly' with Rioli and enjoyed playing with him without ever being part of the 'circle'...which would mean he would have always remained an outsider.

Let me re-iterate. The 'CIRCLE' will be open to anyone. But anyone who wants to be at a more than 'hey/seeya' relationship level is going to have to make the first move. The First Nations boys will be WELCOMING but they wont INVITE you to join...

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I've said this stuff before - people in Victoria, generally speaking - don't have enough experience/exposure in talking too/spending time with First Nations people to actually 'get' this sort of thing. Watch the 'brother boys' from oppo teams chatting together after a game...there is an unspoken connection for so many of them BECAUSE they have fought through the sort of things being reported by Jackson to get where they are...






This part is frustrating. These aren't 'allegations'. Jackson is reporting what he has been told. Fagan and Clarkson were offered right of reply. They chose not to respond. This part of it is doing my head in and I just don't understand why so many people in the community seem to think that Jackson would have written an article with a foundation in b.s. They aren't allegations. This happened. The details of exactly WHO is responsible (here's a hint - it's Andrew Newland) remain somewhat unclear but there is no 'believe/don't believe' element to the story.

Thank you for your perspective. I freely admit in my post my exposure and understanding of First Nations People is extremely limited. The commentary by white, male media in radio and print has been nothing short of embarrassing. They freely admit what has “happened” is terrible and it is always followed very quickly by the inevitable BUT and then try to justify or lesson the actions of those involved.

[jeemak]

Thank you for your perspective. I freely admit in my post my exposure and understanding of First Nations People is extremely limited. The commentary by white, male media in radio and print has been nothing short of embarrassing. They freely admit what has “happened” is terrible and it is always followed very quickly by the inevitable BUT and then try to justify or lesson the actions of those involved.

Imagine how things might change if they just stopped at what has happened is terrible, followed up by we're sorry this has happened, to be followed up again with everyone who has experienced this needs support and we are committed to providing it (and actually provide it).

It's not the same as people who come forward with claims of sexual violence committed against them - both issues are important in needing to be dealt with (but are inherently different), but the themes in responses are. Acknowledge it's bad, acknowledge we don't accept it, and pledge and follow through with support and justice as required.

There's a perception out there victims of these issues haven't gone through the wringer ten times over before actually making a stand and coming out. The commentariat cheapens the stance by underplaying how sickening reliving over and again it must be to the victims before they take the courageous step to finally voice what happened to them.

It is embarrassing and is a sign of a lack of basic civility and compassion in what is supposed to be a developed society.

[Swoop]

This part is frustrating. These aren't 'allegations'. Jackson is reporting what he has been told. Fagan and Clarkson were offered right of reply. They chose not to respond. This part of it is doing my head in and I just don't understand why so many people in the community seem to think that Jackson would have written an article with a foundation in b.s. They aren't allegations. This happened. The details of exactly WHO is responsible (here's a hint - it's Andrew Newland) remain somewhat unclear but there is no 'believe/don't believe' element to the story.

This is the part that seems to get lost on people. The victims haven't come forward with these issues, they were approached and asked about their experiences. It is more testimony as opposed to allegations.

[1eyedog]

I don't. Footy change-rooms are interesting places and footy change-rooms with First Nations players are even more interesting. The First Nations boys will sit TOGETHER. They will do everything TOGETHER. They will HAPPILY engage with anyone who wants to engage (as Jack Trengove will tell you from his time at Port) but it can be a hard 'circle' to approach. Hodge and co could have been 'friendly' with Rioli and enjoyed playing with him without ever being part of the 'circle'...which would mean he would have always remained an outsider.

Let me re-iterate. The 'CIRCLE' will be open to anyone. But anyone who wants to be at a more than 'hey/seeya' relationship level is going to have to make the first move. The First Nations boys will be WELCOMING but they wont INVITE you to join...

I don't want to sound like a broken record but I've said this stuff before - people in Victoria, generally speaking - don't have enough experience/exposure in talking too/spending time with First Nations people to actually 'get' this sort of thing. Watch the 'brother boys' from oppo teams chatting together after a game...there is an unspoken connection for so many of them BECAUSE they have fought through the sort of things being reported by Jackson to get where they are...






This part is frustrating. These aren't 'allegations'. Jackson is reporting what he has been told. Fagan and Clarkson were offered right of reply. They chose not to respond. This part of it is doing my head in and I just don't understand why so many people in the community seem to think that Jackson would have written an article with a foundation in b.s. They aren't allegations. This happened. The details of exactly WHO is responsible (here's a hint - it's Andrew Newland) remain somewhat unclear but there is no 'believe/don't believe' element to the story.

You got it pretty well right here. If you want in you gotta be in all the time otherwise you're out. As a white fella you're coming from a long way back.

[Swoop]

I don't understand why Brisbane had to come out and make the statement "we stand by Chris."

It undermines the investigation and also discredits those who have provided statements. These people didn't come forward, they were asked about their experiences. I would hate for this to become a 'we believe him and not you' situation.

[GVGjr]

I don't understand why Brisbane had to come out and make the statement "we stand by Chris."

It undermines the investigation and also discredits those who have provided statements. These people didn't come forward, they were asked about their experiences. I would hate for this to become a 'we believe him and not you' situation.

It's a tricky one given the seriousness of the accusations I think it should supersede any innocent until proven guilty or clubs standing by their players/coaches sentiment.

[MrMahatma]

I don't understand why Brisbane had to come out and make the statement "we stand by Chris."

It undermines the investigation and also discredits those who have provided statements. These people didn't come forward, they were asked about their experiences. I would hate for this to become a 'we believe him and not you' situation.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You could take the view that all Brisbane need to care about are their people, their players and their fans.

[jeemak]

They're probably shitting themselves about players possibly not wanting to be there......

[GVGjr]

They're probably shitting themselves about players possibly not wanting to be there......

Good point, potentially losing the coach might not sit well with sponsors, fans and players.

[Ozza]

I don't think we should be under any illusions that Fagan or Clarkson won't be coaching next year. Of course they'll be coaching. Its the way things work. The AFL and everyone else involved, will manufacture an outcome where lesser names in the context of AFL footy take the fall, and Fagan and Clarkson will undergo some training.

[GVGjr]

I don't think we should be under any illusions that Fagan or Clarkson won't be coaching next year. Of course they'll be coaching. Its the way things work. The AFL and everyone else involved, will manufacture an outcome where lesser names in the context of AFL footy take the fall, and Fagan and Clarkson will undergo some training.

You would hope we see the bigger picture but the AFL has often been able to work through problems in a way that doesn't bring the competition a lot of negativity.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think we should be under any illusions that Fagan or Clarkson won't be coaching next year. Of course they'll be coaching. Its the way things work. The AFL and everyone else involved, will manufacture an outcome where lesser names in the context of AFL footy take the fall, and Fagan and Clarkson will undergo some training.

The former development manager, now suspended from his current school coaching role better expect to be the ‘patsy’. He looks like an easy fall guy to demonise. Or if he gets looked after by a benefactor into the future, could jump on the grenade. If he does, that’s the easiest manipulation ‘to avoid responsibility and change’. I think in Latin it’s the AFEL creed.

[Ozza]

You would hope we see the bigger picture but the AFL has often been able to work through problems in a way that doesn't bring the competition a lot of negativity.

They don't REALLY want to find these testimonies to be true and accurate. They want to arrive at a far watered down version.

As far as I'm concerned, the league failed the Adelaide-camp saga and they failed Adam Goodes. The degree to which club and league failed Heritier Lumumba I'm unsure about as the whole scenario was a lot messier to be able to follow - but it sits uncomfortably. So I just have no faith in the league's sincerity in these matters.

[Ozza]

The former development manager, now suspended from his current school coaching role better expect to be the ‘patsy’. He looks like an easy fall guy to demonise. Or if he gets looked after by a benefactor into the future, could jump on the grenade. If he does, that’s the easiest manipulation ‘to avoid responsibility and change’. I think in Latin it’s the AFEL creed.

Oh, absolutely. He has absolutely stunk of fall guy since the day this broke.

[Jeanette54]

It's a tricky one given the seriousness of the accusations I think it should supersede any innocent until proven guilty or clubs standing by their players/coaches sentiment.

To remove the presumption of innocence is to remove the entire basis of our law and legal system. Would you really want to revert to the French system of guilty until proven innocent?

[hujsh]

To remove the presumption of innocence is to remove the entire basis of our law and legal system. Would you really want to revert to the French system of guilty until proven innocent?

This is not the legal system. That is a different and very slow process. I'd argue that given the serious and credible claims it'd be negligent to allow these two men to continue coaching until something changes the situation. It'd be like leaving someone accused of rape to run a women's shelter and saying 'well innocent until proven guilty'

PS I am not a laywer so I don't know if that meets the technical requirements for negligence.

Anyway I'll repeat to make it crystal clear. No one is suggesting they be pre-emptively thrown in jail. I'm saying that in the short term some basic protective measures should be taken.

[EasternWest]

This is not the legal system. That is a different and very slow process. I'd argue that given the serious and credible claims it'd be negligent to allow these two men to continue coaching until something changes the situation. It'd be like leaving someone accused of rape to run a women's shelter and saying 'well innocent until proven guilty'

PS I am not a laywer so I don't know if that meets the technical requirements for negligence.

Anyway I'll repeat to make it crystal clear. No one is suggesting they be pre-emptively thrown in jail. I'm saying that in the short term some basic protective measures should be taken.

I admire your patience, hujsh.

[Jeanette54]

Anyway I'll repeat to make it crystal clear. No one is suggesting they be pre-emptively thrown in jail. I'm saying that in the short term some basic protective measures should be taken.

As I understand neither of those implicated are actively coaching at present, not sure what more to expect before the investigation is complete.

[hujsh]

As I understand neither of those implicated are actively coaching at present, not sure what more to expect before the investigation is complete.

So it sounds like if the announcement was made at the beginning of pre-season you'd be fine with it then.

[Jeanette54]

So it sounds like if the announcement was made at the beginning of pre-season you'd be fine with it then.

Not fine with what they are accused of, but fine with the process. Provided neither they nor anyone else directly associated with the actions in question continue to have any active AFL role, until the investigation is completed, and their innocence (or otherwise) is established. Further developments will depend on the results of the report.

[The bulldog tragician]

I’m expecting “ inconclusive” findings and the ole Royal Family Favourite: “Recollections May Vary”. Some carefully crafted lines about underestimating the meaning of family in a cultural context. A bit of a rejig here, some “cultural awareness” training there. Those names are too big to fall and the battle lines are already being drawn in a “ who do you believe” fashion.

The report almost writes itself really. I’d bet some covert undermining and briefing about any “dirt” on the players concerned is already happening.

The one thing the AFL might not have bargained for is the anger of the women involved. This all started when Cyril Rioli’s partner wouldn’t laugh off a “harmless” Jeff Kennett-makes fun of the ripped jeans - moment. But they are up against powerful forces.

[GVGjr]

Instead of running off to run the Brisbane Olympic games as is rumored Gil should be seeing this through.

[bornadog]

I’m expecting “ inconclusive” findings and the ole Royal Family Favourite: “Recollections May Vary”. Some carefully crafted lines about underestimating the meaning of family in a cultural context. A bit of a rejig here, some “cultural awareness” training there. Those names are too big to fall and the battle lines are already being drawn in a “ who do you believe” fashion.

The report almost writes itself really. I’d bet some covert undermining and briefing about any “dirt” on the players concerned is already happening.

The one thing the AFL might not have bargained for is the anger of the women involved. This all started when Cyril Rioli’s partner wouldn’t laugh off a “harmless” Jeff Kennett-makes fun of the ripped jeans - moment. But they are up against powerful forces.

The AFL better do this properly, with proper independent panel members. Pretty sure many people, especially women have had a gutful of the Boys Club

[jeemak]

Oh, absolutely. He has absolutely stunk of fall guy since the day this broke.

They've actually been drawing stink lines on him in media reports!

[jeemak]

I’m expecting “ inconclusive” findings and the ole Royal Family Favourite: “Recollections May Vary”. Some carefully crafted lines about underestimating the meaning of family in a cultural context. A bit of a rejig here, some “cultural awareness” training there. Those names are too big to fall and the battle lines are already being drawn in a “ who do you believe” fashion.

The report almost writes itself really. I’d bet some covert undermining and briefing about any “dirt” on the players concerned is already happening.

The one thing the AFL might not have bargained for is the anger of the women involved. This all started when Cyril Rioli’s partner wouldn’t laugh off a “harmless” Jeff Kennett-makes fun of the ripped jeans - moment. But they are up against powerful forces.

I agree with this sentiment, but I also think it's plainly too disgusting a situation for it to be swept under the carpet. Geelong have had their moment, deservedly, but this report was released in Grand Final week to gain maximum exposure and I think post Tuesday evening it will be the top of the agenda and will overshadow the free agency period due to commence Friday.

Gillon must go and can't hold court in any proceedings from here. I get he'll stay but his legacy will/ should be somewhat trashed as the coming weeks unfold. This is the biggest shit show comprising racism the league has faced. It's not Michael Long being called the unmentionable things he was called in the 90s, it's not Adam Goodes being booed. It is Gestapo marching into houses and tearing families apart bad, nothing reported in Australian sport these past decades comes close to what has been alleged (which is a conciliatory term I'd prefer not to use).

The way the report reads someone is going to be branded a liar, or someone is going to have to admit they were in attendance and did nothing. In either of those circumstances nothing can be saved for those implicated. They're done.

[jeemak]

Instead of running off to run the Brisbane Olympic games as is rumored Gil should be seeing this through.

If only to be completely shamed as he should be for his horrendous record when it comes to racism in the AFL.

I've voiced my derision of him as a person/ type of person many times around here, so I won't need to do it again. However, if anything that is positive could come from it it needs to involve him being made accountable for being asleep at the wheel and not being a true leader in this area.

[bornadog]

Lawyers are going to make big dollars.


Chris Fagan has retained Clayton Utz lawyers together with barristers Liam Kelly KC and David Turner to act on his behalf in relation to the proposed forthcoming investigation by the AFL.

[Jeanette54]

The way the report reads someone is going to be branded a liar

Problem is, who?

From today's Sun:
North Melbourne chair Sonja Hood made clear on the weekend she believed Clarkson was innocent, saying on Saturday: “I’m really confident in his side of the story and I’m sure we’ll all get the chance to hear that through the AFL’s process.

[bornadog]

Problem is, who?

From today's Sun:
North Melbourne chair Sonja Hood made clear on the weekend she believed Clarkson was innocent, saying on Saturday: “I’m really confident in his side of the story and I’m sure we’ll all get the chance to hear that through the AFL’s process.

Of course Clarkson would say that

[Swoop]

There's now talk that the Indigenous families that provided testimony of their experiences may not necessarily participate in the investigation.

[Jeanette54]

Of course Clarkson would say that

Clarkson didn't. It was Sonja Hood, placing her own credibility on the line, which I doubt she would do lightly.

[Grantysghost]

There's now talk that the Indigenous families that provided testimony of their experiences may not necessarily participate in the investigation.

Swept.Rug.

Of course they're worried, it's that victim blaming shaming thing that causes many rape victims to remain quiet.

[Swoop]

You can see why they would have trepidation about this whole process. Historically, investigations like this have not been favourable and when you start to hear about lawyers involved, you can see how their testimony will be disputed and their personal reputations questioned.

"Why trust this person who has done x and x in their lives as opposed to this upstanding member of the community?"

[bornadog]

Clarkson didn't. It was Sonja Hood, placing her own credibility on the line, which I doubt she would do lightly.

She would have spoken to Clarkson and that is the message he conveyed.

[hujsh]

Clarkson didn't. It was Sonja Hood, placing her own credibility on the line, which I doubt she would do lightly.

Backing their man in. Unless he has something very convincing it's pretty disappointing from North.

[Swoop]

You could nearly write the findings already. Clarkson was present in some meetings but was not aware of the specific advice that was being given to the players.

He is both shocked and appalled by the findings and had he been aware, he would have intervened to support the player and their family.

He would like to condemn the actions of so and so who was acting in a manner contrary to both Clarkson and Hawthorn's values.

[Rocco Jones]

You could nearly write the findings already. Clarkson was present in some meetings but was not aware of the specific advice that was being given to the players.

He is both shocked and appalled by the findings and had he been aware, he would have intervened to support the player and their family.

He would like to condemn the actions of so and so who was acting in a manner contrary to both Clarkson and Hawthorn's values.

You are basically the future.

[bornadog]

You could nearly write the findings already. Clarkson was present in some meetings but was not aware of the specific advice that was being given to the players.

He is both shocked and appalled by the findings and had he been aware, he would have intervened to support the player and their family.

He would like to condemn the actions of so and so who was acting in a manner contrary to both Clarkson and Hawthorn's values.

Millions will be spent on superfluous investigation - lawyers making money for nothing

[Grantysghost]

You could nearly write the findings already. Clarkson was present in some meetings but was not aware of the specific advice that was being given to the players.

He is both shocked and appalled by the findings and had he been aware, he would have intervened to support the player and their family.

He would like to condemn the actions of so and so who was acting in a manner contrary to both Clarkson and Hawthorn's values.

Insert patsy here. The well used move by power since forever.

Watch Gaslit with Julia Roberts and Sean Penn re Watergate.

Also the movie Gaslighting with Ingred Bergman is a classic!

[Jeanette54]

Millions will be spent on superfluous investigation - lawyers making money for nothing

Perhaps they are defending someone who may be innocent, which is hardly "nothing".

I personally don't know if they are innocent or guilty of the acts ascribed to the coaches. But neither does anyone else, outside those immediately involved.

It seems however that the lynch mob have already made their call. And they may, or may not, be correct.

[Grantysghost]

Perhaps they are defending someone who may be innocent, which is hardly "nothing".

I personally don't know if they are innocent or guilty of the acts ascribed to the coaches. But neither does anyone else, outside those immediately involved.

It seems however that the lynch mob have already made their call. And they may, or may not, be correct.

I agree, I don't think anyone here has said they're guilty.

For me logically, I ask myself initially why would you make this up? Is there multiple credible sources? Has there been an independent investigation?

I'm pretty satisfied with my answers to those questions to make an initial judgement but certainly respect the process and that these guys may be completely innocent.

[EasternWest]

You could nearly write the findings already. Clarkson was present in some meetings but was not aware of the specific advice that was being given to the players.

He is both shocked and appalled by the findings and had he been aware, he would have intervened to support the player and their family.

He would like to condemn the actions of so and so who was acting in a manner contrary to both Clarkson and Hawthorn's values.


You are basically the future.

Swoop's a prescient present in our presence.

[Swoop]

Perhaps they are defending someone who may be innocent, which is hardly "nothing".

I personally don't know if they are innocent or guilty of the acts ascribed to the coaches. But neither does anyone else, outside those immediately involved.

It seems however that the lynch mob have already made their call. And they may, or may not, be correct.

I think you're right and that in itself is the point. Despite the process about to be undertaken, I don't think anyone will come out with any clear answers similar to the Essendon supplement saga.

[bornadog]

I think you're right and that in itself is the point. Despite the process about to be undertaken, I don't think anyone will come out with any clear answers similar to the Essendon supplement saga.

Although we do know Hawthorn had an independent investigation and three people were named by three families.

[1eyedog]

There's now talk that the Indigenous families that provided testimony of their experiences may not necessarily participate in the investigation.

They don't need to their testimony is detailed in the report. If anything they may provide evidence out of court but I can't see them getting marched up in front of KCs to defend themselves.

Would be horrific for them if the allegations are true.

[bornadog]

They don't need to their testimony is detailed in the report. If anything they may provide evidence out of court but I can't see them getting marched up in front of KCs to defend themselves.

Would be horrific for them if the allegations are true.

What have you heard in the community 1Eye? There must be some very angry people.

[1eyedog]

What have you heard in the community 1Eye? There must be some very angry people.

Nothing specific BAD other than the broader Aboriginal community is really hurting. I know of some really troubling mental health issues that have flowed on from this.

Regardless of what is true and what's not true and how this all ends these allegations have highlighted to me just how big the gap between Indigenous Australia and the rest actually is. Social Media against the alleged victims has been utterly barbaric.There's just so much distrust, paranoia and fear amongst the communities. I don't know how we reconcile this it already seems we have worked so hard on reconciliation but then something like this happens again and then something happens again and we are in this perpetual cyclical process of one step forward two steps back.

It's really hard to forget and forgive what has happened in the past when the same things keep happening, albiet on a less destructive scale. Relationship building with Aboriginal people is developed on respect and trust so it's hard to repair and build a foundation when these two critical components are continually deconstructed.

I dunno, the community is taking it really hard and while they naturally believe their own (as Betts has stated), there's a sense of wait and see and a sense of foreboding for what the outcome will mean either way.

[bornadog]

Nothing specific BAD other than the broader Aboriginal community is really hurting. I know of some really troubling mental health issues that have flowed on from this.

Regardless of what is true and what's not true and how this all ends these allegations have highlighted to me just how big the gap between Indigenous Australia and the rest actually is. Social Media against the alleged victims has been utterly barbaric.There's just so much distrust, paranoia and fear amongst the communities. I don't know how we reconcile this it already seems we have worked so hard on reconciliation but then something like this happens again and then something happens again and we are in this perpetual cyclical process of one step forward two steps back.

It's really hard to forget and forgive what has happened in the past when the same things keep happening, albiet on a less destructive scale. Relationship building with Aboriginal people is developed on respect and trust so it's hard to repair and build a foundation when these two critical components are continually deconstructed.

I dunno, the community is taking it really hard and while they naturally believe their own (as Betts has stated), there's a sense of wait and see and a sense of foreboding for what the outcome will mean either way.

Thank you for that, just as I thought.

I see there is an article in HUN about racism in the AFL:


Racism rife in ‘pretty much the whole AFL system’

‘Is his white girlfriend moving over? Are his family members caught up in jail?’ A former liaison officer details the shocking way Indigenous players have been treated. SUBSCRIBE for the full story.

I am hoping all this is also uncovered in the investigation, not just the way Hawks have acted.

What happens with the information is the next question.

[jeemak]

Nothing specific BAD other than the broader Aboriginal community is really hurting. I know of some really troubling mental health issues that have flowed on from this.

Regardless of what is true and what's not true and how this all ends these allegations have highlighted to me just how big the gap between Indigenous Australia and the rest actually is. Social Media against the alleged victims has been utterly barbaric.There's just so much distrust, paranoia and fear amongst the communities. I don't know how we reconcile this it already seems we have worked so hard on reconciliation but then something like this happens again and then something happens again and we are in this perpetual cyclical process of one step forward two steps back.

It's really hard to forget and forgive what has happened in the past when the same things keep happening, albiet on a less destructive scale. Relationship building with Aboriginal people is developed on respect and trust so it's hard to repair and build a foundation when these two critical components are continually deconstructed.

I dunno, the community is taking it really hard and while they naturally believe their own (as Betts has stated), there's a sense of wait and see and a sense of foreboding for what the outcome will mean either way.

How can we reconcile and move forward if we don't actually admit to our past? By admit to our past I'm talking all the way back to day one.

Being in complete and utter denial of our past willfully or otherwise, means that collectively we can't or won't admit to these issues as they exist today.

[bulldogtragic]

Mark Robinson dropped a story, this extract is interesting:


A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”

“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.

The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.

“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.



..............................

That former Hawthorn assistant coach (whoever he is) pulls no punches, and was proactive in backing up the player allegations.

[Grantysghost]

Mark Robinson dropped a story, this extract is interesting:


A Hawks coach, who the Herald Sun has chosen not to name, told the reviewers: “If you dare question their methods, you were frozen out.”

“I knew this day would come,’’ the insider told the authors, according to the report.

The whistleblower coach, who is not Indigenous, “reached out’’ to the authors of the report who up to that point had only interviewed Indigenous people in order to corroborate parts of the testimonies from players and their partners.

“He went on to say Evans, Clarkson, Fagan and Burt operated the football department like The Russian Mafia,” the report said.



..............................

That former Hawthorn assistant coach (whoever he is) pulls no punches, and was proactive in backing up the player allegations.

Crikey.

Need someone on record or it's all useless.

[jazzadogs]

Crikey.

Need someone on record or it's all useless.

A mate in the football industry was surprised Evans wasn't named in the report.

[josie]

Thanks Bulldogtragic. I meant to click thanks and was so flabbergasted I hit the like button by mistake.

Like wow. Try and gloss over this investigation with a “we cannot corroborate testimonies AFL” and I think they’ll regret it.

Every club should be reviewed in my opinion. Guessing most if not all clubs will have skeletons in the closet and they need to be exposed and acknowledged.