The Dunkley trade from the Lions perspective

[Dry Rot]

First up, please leave your Doggies scarf and beanie and what you think of Dunkley at the door. That is well covered in another thread.

I am interested in exploring the role and perspective of the Lions in all this. It is unusual for these things to suddenly arise at the end of the season with good to elite players, perhaps Treloar was an exception.

So it is probably fair to assume that the Lions and Dunkley's manager were talking during the season. On Dunkley's side, he wanted to leave the dogs and apparently live in Queensland. But what about on the Lion's side?

At one extreme, the Lion's brains trust realised they couldn't win a flag without the vital missing Dunkley piece and pursued him. Unlikely.

At the other extreme, they received a call from Dunkleys manager and thought Josh who? Ah, the Dogs midfielder, I suppose he could be handy.

If the latter then maybe it is more like an opportunistic Treloar situation.

In any event, I wonder what they were thinking if they wish to get Ainsworth and Fletcher and now in addition Dunkley in one season.

What do you think is the Lion's perspective of this trade?

[soupman]

I think they are trying to upgrade their previous setup.

Lyons has been a regular in their midfield as a big bodied contested player, except this year he has started to decline and been a lot less impactful.

Dunkley ostensibly replaces him, but can play forward, is of good character, and his ceiling is proper AA standard. A bit like Neale I reckon they see him grasping the opportunity and going from a good midfielder stuck behind a few others to an elite one.

Also from a cost perspective I think its smart, even with the father son stuff. They just need points, this way they can trade out their "first rounders" that are really just shitty picks in the teens and do a bunch of trades to get 2nd and 3rd rounders for the points, they actually aren't giving up any real big pieces like a top 10 pick.

[Bulldog Joe]

I agree that they could probably see the decline in Lyons and looking about for a big bodied mid that might be gettable Dunkley would easily come to mind.

Obviously been going on for a while but they may still have only entertained the thoughts within the last 6 weeks or so.

They must have a view of what they are prepared to trade and their 1st round is of no use to them with Ashcroft likely No 1 under father son.

So it is sacrifice pick 14/15 for Dunkley and see what else might get it done. If they get 3rd picks back it will be a bonus.

Are they prepared to also sacrifice a best 22 player if they need too. They know they are already losing McStay and maybe Gardiner.

Who else could they squeeze out.

[Mofra]

We need a larger bodied mid and ideally someone who can release to McCluggage to allow him to play more of an outside game, while still attending plenty of CBAs.
With Ashcroft set to be eased into AFL life, the only guy we have that can do that is Raynor and he's still a forward/mid mix.
Our mids aren't overly defensive save for Lyons who is nowhere near as big or strong or good overhead as Dunkley. Lyons' OP is an ongoing concern and Dunkley is a step up in class while we are currently in our window.

Given the likely deficit next year and bids this year, I would offer our two late first rounders (2022 & 23) to the Dogs for Dunkley & plenty of points back this year.
I would be comfortable with going into a small deficit next year as we back ourselves in for our 2nd rounder to be an early-to-mid 30s pick and after bidding, any deficit we carry gets taken off picks where a few spots in the draft are less critical.

I would not offer the McStay compo to the Bulldogs, instead negotiating with the Suns to on-trade that pick at a points surplus to help us this year for bids matching.

[Grantysghost]

We need a may and a Cameron.

That is all.

[bornadog]

We need a may and a Cameron.

That is all.
second ruck is?

[Grantysghost]

second ruck is?

Who do the swans have

Stanley and Blicavs are hardly rucks.

[GVGjr]

As Mofra said, the Lions are clearly over supplied on smaller midfield types and they needed more of a big body than what they could get out of Berry.
They're also getting two more smaller types in Ashcroft and Fletcher and will get another Ashcroft down the track.
If they are prepared to pay Dunks what has been mentioned they will offer a late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder as their starting point.
It will be up to Sam Power and maybe a couple of other clubs to help them get the points they need by being creative. Gold Coast have some draft capital that might interest us.

[Grantysghost]

As Mofra said, the Lions are clearly over supplied on smaller midfield types and they needed more of a big body than what they could get out of Berry.
They're also getting two more smaller types in Ashcroft and Fletcher and will get another Ashcroft down the track.
If they are prepared to pay Dunks what has been mentioned they will offer a late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder as their starting point.
It will be up to Power and maybe a couple of other clubs to help them get the points they need.

G what do you think they will end up parting with?.

There's just no way I can see Dunkley at the Lions.

[bornadog]

Who do the swans have

Stanley and Blicavs are hardly rucks.

Solved.

[GVGjr]

G what do you think they will end up parting with?.

There's just no way I can see Dunkley at the Lions.

The 2022 and 2023 first round picks.
Why can't you see him heading to Brisbane?

[Mofra]

The 2022 and 2023 first round picks.
Why can't you see him heading to Brisbane?
I suspect Power will ask for both with no picks going back.
Counter-offer is picks 29, 37 & 65 coming back

I think Power does what he can to keep pick 29 and we'd be comfortable with handing later picks back

[Prince Imperial]

I suspect Power will ask for both with no picks going back.
Counter-offer is picks 29, 37 & 65 coming back

I think Power does what he can to keep pick 29 and we'd be comfortable with handing later picks back

I expect Power will want to keep 29 for Lobb. Assuming the Lions finish 4th next year (which is very reasonable) the draft pick calculator would value Dunkley at pick 7 if we give them 37 and 65.

This is pretty much what I expect to happen and is "fair".

[1eyedog]

We need a larger bodied mid and ideally someone who can release to McCluggage to allow him to play more of an outside game, while still attending plenty of CBAs.
With Ashcroft set to be eased into AFL life, the only guy we have that can do that is Raynor and he's still a forward/mid mix.
Our mids aren't overly defensive save for Lyons who is nowhere near as big or strong or good overhead as Dunkley. Lyons' OP is an ongoing concern and Dunkley is a step up in class while we are currently in our window.

Given the likely deficit next year and bids this year, I would offer our two late first rounders (2022 & 23) to the Dogs for Dunkley & plenty of points back this year.
I would be comfortable with going into a small deficit next year as we back ourselves in for our 2nd rounder to be an early-to-mid 30s pick and after bidding, any deficit we carry gets taken off picks where a few spots in the draft are less critical.

I would not offer the McStay compo to the Bulldogs, instead negotiating with the Suns to on-trade that pick at a points surplus to help us this year for bids matching.

Berry is an absolute bull and while he doesn't get the volume of ball Dunkley gets he can tag effectively and is a defensive beast. Not sure why he is so underrated.

[1eyedog]

I expect Power will want to keep 29 for Lobb. Assuming the Lions finish 4th next year (which is very reasonable) the draft pick calculator would value Dunkley at pick 7 if we give them 37 and 65.

This is pretty much what I expect to happen and is "fair".

I would think the Lions will be going into 2023 with an assistant or a new coach. It could be earlier than we think.

[Mofra]

I would think the Lions will be going into 2023 with an assistant or a new coach. It could be earlier than we think.
Couple of Doggies among their assistant coaching ranks - Mitch Hahn and Huddo. Both cult heroes in their own way

[1eyedog]

Couple of Doggies among their assistant coaching ranks - Mitch Hahn and Huddo. Both cult heroes in their own way

Knew Huddo was there but didn't know about Hahn. Figures being a Qld boy.

[Dry Rot]

Knew Huddo was there but didn't know about Hahn. Figures being a Qld boy.


Off topic, but how innocuous was Hahn's ACL?

He just jumped up for a mark, not high, landed normally to the naked eye, and bingo.

ACL.

[1eyedog]

Off topic, but how innocuous was Hahn's ACL?

He just jumped up for a mark, not high, landed normally to the naked eye, and bingo.

ACL.
Totally shattered was one of my faves. Was absolutely in white hot form when he did it as well.

[F'scary]

Dunkley is one of the best inside mids in the comp. He is a massive unit and finds the ball plenty all game. He also has an impressive overhead game. The Brions would have been licking their lips and pinching themselves for their good luck.

[Mofra]

Dunkley is one of the best inside mids in the comp. He is a massive unit and finds the ball plenty all game. He also has an impressive overhead game. The Brions would have been licking their lips and pinching themselves for their good luck.
He just seems to compliment their other mids so well

[bornadog]

Totally shattered was one of my faves. Was absolutely in white hot form when he did it as well.

I really liked Hahn as well. That big frame and long kicking.

[Swoop]

I like the direction this thread is going, Hahn was a beast and really was our barometer. He was a very likable player.

Likewise, Ben Hudson was underrated and very important to our side at the time. Both are good examples of players who got the best out of themselves.

[Bulldog4life]

As Mofra said, the Lions are clearly over supplied on smaller midfield types and they needed more of a big body than what they could get out of Berry.
They're also getting two more smaller types in Ashcroft and Fletcher and will get another Ashcroft down the track.
If they are prepared to pay Dunks what has been mentioned they will offer a late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder as their starting point.
It will be up to Sam Power and maybe a couple of other clubs to help them get the points they need by being creative. Gold Coast have some draft capital that might interest us.

When Neale went from Freo to Brisbane and Freo received picks 6 & 19 with a few late picks shuffled. Good to keep in mind. This was before Neale won a brownlow.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Loved Hahn too.

How good would he be in today's game? Big powerful mid who can go forward.

[EasternWest]

Loved Hahn too.

How good would he be in today's game? Big powerful mid who can go forward.

+1 for the Hahn train

[hujsh]

Was always a gamble when Hahn kicked the ball. It's wobbling around but it could go straight or OOB on the full. Literally in the hands of the gods once it touched his boot

[josie]

+1 for the Hahn train

Loved Hahn too. Typified the no fuss, tough as teak dogs’ players we love. And the People’s Beard, wow just so good in a non flashy way. Mr Perrenial - 4 clubs wasn’t it? (Crows, us, Pies?, Lions?)

[1eyedog]

Clearly we need a Mitch Hahn appreciation thread

[Stevo]

Dunkley is that big bull midfielder that they have needed over the last two years. As talented as their midfielders are Dunkley will be a point of difference for them. Hate to see him go but it's done now so lets get the maximum return and find ourselves some players.

[mjp]

There is no Brisbane perspective to this trade.

They are making a mistake. Dunks is a 3rd banana mid who they are going to pay as a 2nd banana (just as we have been).

They don't need a 30+ possession per game player. Dunks wants to be a 30+ ppg player.

He is not a free agent. So they WILL need to give up draft capital to get him. SIGNIFICANT draft capital. Yes - they have some high end picks coming in this year but they will be compromising their next (and probably next 2) drafts to get him.

Daniher is rising 30 and is simply not going to live up to his potential. Everyone (esp. Brisbane) needs to accept this.
YES - they have Hipwood.
They are going to lose McStay.
Yes - they have McCarthy and Cameron - two smalls who seem best suited as leading mid-sizers/smalls out of the goal-square. Not sustainable and doesn't win finals as the past 3 season SHOULD have taught them.
Down the other end;
Andrews isn't the player he was.
Gardiner is just a guy and must be 28 years old.
Adams is a perpetual injury risk and must be 28 years old.

In getting Dunks they are telling me that they DON'T know where their list is at. Recruiting Dunks will keep young Bailey out of the midfield...he needs to be IN THERE. He can kick the footy and deliver it...It will keep Rayner out of the midfield...he NEEDS to be in there...

They are making a mistake.

[Dry Rot]

Great post mjp

You have identified quite a few Lions list problems, so a supplementary question for you.

In my view, there is something fundamentally wrong with them but I don't know what it is. They are a flakey 3 - 6 spot team which finishes higher due to home advantage but never looks like delivering in finals to my eye.

What is wrong with them?

[mjp]

What is wrong with them?

They don't have a structure - forward or back - that will stand up under pressure.

Their backline has really improved re- smalls (addition of Coleman, improvement in Starcevich and Ainsworth) but their talls are ho-hum (Gardiner) or going backwards (Andrews).

Up front, Cameron and McCarthy are their most dangerous players so when the pressure is on they are kicking to 2x smalls (at worst) /mid-sizers (at best) depending on what your perspective is.

Their midfield is quite literally the least of their problems now that Lyons has been moved out (too slow) and Robinson (Will Hayes with Tatts) has had his wing role taken off him. Robinson has done exceptionally well to forge his career but his last 2-3 seasons he has been a replacement level winger capable only of the skinny side role...who wants those players? No-one.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Agree with lots of what you are saying but they are betting on overwhelming teams midfield and then finding just enough quality up forward at the right time of the year for lightning to strike - in effect perhaps they are trying for a bulldogs 2016 type premiership

they have always rated hipwood and Daniher more highly than others and they will be hoping the improved defensive smalls along with Adam’s also getting a clean run at it are the keys for them - those are bigs ifs, and you are certainly pointing that out

The Dunkley decision is interesting in light of the Lyons decision 2+years a go - he’s got a bit more pace than Lyons, more ability to play up forward, but he will take away minutes from your young players with star potential - Zac bailey in particular

It’s a thought provoking post about a team who think they are getting a shiny new toy

[Dry Rot]

They don't have a structure - forward or back - that will stand up under pressure.

Their backline has really improved re- smalls (addition of Coleman, improvement in Starcevich and Ainsworth) but their talls are ho-hum (Gardiner) or going backwards (Andrews).

Andrews is only 26.

What has happened to him?

[bornadog]

Andrews is only 26.

What has happened to him?

note that post was in 2022 when he didn't have a good year. He is playing well this year.

[Grantysghost]

note that post was in 2022 when he didn't have a good year. He is playing well this year.

Probably still recovering from the Cameron hit.

Man that was awful.

He's a really good defender.

Positions himself well, has a good set of hands and disposal is pretty good.
Love him at the dogs.

[westdog54]

Probably still recovering from the Cameron hit.

Man that was awful.

He's a really good defender.

Positions himself well, has a good set of hands and disposal is pretty good.
Love him at the dogs.

That should have been the incident that saw a red card introduced to the AFL. It was horrendous.

Andrews has had a good year so far. The problem isn't at his end.

Daniher will always be what he is. A largely unfulfilled talent. As for Hipwood, he is the poster boy for the insanity that is mega long term deals. Any exposed form he may have had couldn't possibly justify a 6 year extension.

[Grantysghost]

That should have been the incident that saw a red card introduced to the AFL. It was horrendous.

Andrews has had a good year so far. The problem isn't at his end.

Daniher will always be what he is. A largely unfulfilled talent. As for Hipwood, he is the poster boy for the insanity that is mega long term deals. Any exposed form he may have had couldn't possibly justify a 6 year extension.

Daniher is the most frustrating player ever. I've been telling people since I first saw him at Essendon that he is capable of being one of the great forwards with his incredible height and athleticism.

I think he reached a really good level of consistency last season, and feel the criticism after our game was harsh (although he did have a bad kicking night) to which he responded really well v the Pies.

Him playing at about 80 percent of his capability is still pretty darn good however I wish he could string all of his massive talent together consistently as he'd be something to behold.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Daniher will always be a mixed bag.

The problem is Hipwood. He's absolutely ordinary.

[jeemak]

Probably still recovering from the Cameron hit.

Man that was awful.



That should have been the incident that saw a red card introduced to the AFL. It was horrendous.



One of the only instances in recent times where I wouldn't have minded out and out retaliatory violence (like face kicking level violence) being enacted on the field. Cameron was and is an out and out ****.

Brisbane are a bit like us, in that when it all clicks it's great and they're difficult to beat. But if the players aren't switched on, as is their want sometimes, they get exposed. I think the GABBA home ground advantage has enabled their top end of the table finishes somewhat, if they had to share home grounds like we do it'd be a bit of a different story.

Dunkley will be really good for them once they settle, like he would be for any side, but he isn't going to be a difference maker there like he would have been at Essendon.

[bornadog]

One of the only instances in recent times where I wouldn't have minded out and out retaliatory violence (like face kicking level violence) being enacted on the field. Cameron was and is an out and out ****.

Brisbane are a bit like us, in that when it all clicks it's great and they're difficult to beat. But if the players aren't switched on, as is their want sometimes, they get exposed. I think the GABBA home ground advantage has enabled their top end of the table finishes somewhat, if they had to share home grounds like we do it'd be a bit of a different story.

Dunkley will be really good for them once they settle, like he would be for any side, but he isn't going to be a difference maker there like he would have been at Essendon.

Essendon really are desperate for that big bodied inside mid - would make a difference.

[kruder]

I saw the lions at the Adelaide airport the other day and there was one player that stood out physique wise and that was Rayner.

He is taller than I expected(187cm) has similar sized calves to Jack Grealish just really well put together. I still think he has improvement to come, I'm guessing its his engine that is holding him back( the knee wouldn't have helped either) but he is a player that would really suit our current list.

[bornadog]

I saw the lions at the Adelaide airport the other day and there was one player that stood out physique wise and that was Rayner.

He is taller than I expected(187cm) has similar sized calves to Jack Grealish just really well put together. I still think he has improvement to come, I'm guessing its his engine that is holding him back( the knee wouldn't have helped either) but he is a player that would really suit our current list.

I agree, has real talent

[Dogs 24/7]

I agree, has real talent

He has played nearly 100 games in a strong side but I think he has displayed more potential than talent. He averages about a goal a game which isn't great from a forward. Talent got him the pick one honor but real talent does better than what he has shown so far.

[angelopetraglia]

I watched the mini game of Lions V North. I don't think I saw Dunley in one of their scoring chains. He appears to be going OK, but not dominating or taking his game to another level. In the first four games he has received two coaches votes.

[EasternWest]

I watched the mini game of Lions V North. I don't think I saw Dunley in one of their scoring chains. He appears to be going OK, but not dominating or taking his game to another level. In the first four games he has received two coaches votes.

Probably too much running