Rating the 2022 Trade Period - After 7.30pm Wednesday Night

[bulldogsthru&thru]

This is the thing. Players who are developed by the club, play Premierships, receive the clubs highest player honours, are next in line for leadership roles can not only hold us over a barrel they can ask for a trade that suits them not us.

Dunks can leave, choosing where he goes is a little rich for me.

Surely we asked him after the Essendon debacle what his plans were? Was he dishonest, or did we think we could change his mind?
After 21, were we asleep at the wheel again?Ask him if he is going to leave at end of contract, if yes : trade on your terms with a year left.
I would love to know what was said in his 21 exit interview.

I bet Bevo told all he thought he could keep Dunks. It'd be fascinating to know because it looks downright incompetent today. As incompetent as never reviewing a historic collapse in a grand final.

[Grantysghost]

Almost helped us win another flag the year after the initial trade request, so don't think they overrated the list that year or made an error in holding Dunkley at the time. If we'd won the 2021 flag, would it have been an error?

Dunkley choosing Brisbane is solely responsible for our poor outcome. Once that decision was made we were all scrambling for how to make the best of a bad situation. He could have chosen Port who had a great draft hand!

As for this year, again, did they really overrate the list? We've all been arguing how our list is stronger than GWS and should have been playing finals - so isn't the issue just the list/coaching didn't PERFORM, rather than that they were rated incorrectly...

I'm thinking more end of 21 JD. Like Dunks, are you going to fk us over end of next year?

[Hotdog60]

I think players can nominate a preferred club but if they are under contract the club should be able to shop them out to the highest bidder until that contract term is finish. Then let the other club see if they can get them to sign on for a longer term. Too much control is placed on what the player wants which in turn knobbles any hope their old club has of getting fair return.
So when Dunkley nominated Essendon we should have said is there anyone else interested and go with the higher bidder if the Dons were that bidder Dunks gets there if not they could try again in 12 months as he can become say a sort of restricted free agent were the new club gets back some of their outlay.
If players know that they are at risk of not getting to the poaching club they may not be inclined to break a contract.

[G-Mo77]

Agree on this. If a contracted player asks to leave they should be traded.

Yes and no. At the time I thought it was the right decision, with the benefit of hindsight I'd ship him to the Bombres. We didn't know what was going to happen though. If he had 1 year on his deal then I'd be trading without hesitation, 2 years though? I'm still hesitating to deal.

[Scorlibo]

Absolutely terrible trade period in retrospect.

We lose two best and fairest winners, and gain a 30 year old role player.

Brisbane got away with murder, inclusive of whatever backroom dealings they had with GWS to ensure Ashcroft didn't receive a bid until Pick 2.



We overestimated our list and where we sat in the scheme of things which resulted in overpaying for Lobb and getting unders for Dunkley.

This is the crux of it for sure. Maybe we didn't overestimate the list, but we overestimated our output.

My great fear is that we still think we're a shot at the flag next year, and will end up making the same mistakes.

[Bulldog Joe]

Terrible off season.

We overestimated our list and where we sat in the scheme of things which resulted in overpaying for Lobb and getting unders for Dunkley. This sits firmly with Sam Power and Chris Grant.

Frankly it reminds me of our off season in 2016 after the flag.

Power needs to deliver during this trade period. For mine delivering does not mean getting players in but either trading up in the draft and not overpaying for Croft if we head done that path.

No future draft picks should be on offer, we need to minimise our risk and not back us onfield to deliver.

I do not accept the over estimated our list, I am of the belief that we have simply underperformed.
We could not finish off games and I see that as a coaching issue.
I also believe the loss of Dunkley and even Hunter was a coaching issue.
Would love to know if we had anyone have serious chat with Dunkley from outside the coaching panel.

[jazzadogs]

.

My great fear is that we still think we're a shot at the flag next year, and will end up making the same mistakes.

I hope the club does think we're a shot at the flag. We finished 9th! Gws went from 16th to a prelim.

It doesn't take much to change, especially when we clearly underperformed. Lift output from the existing list, add some youth, cut the dead wood - why shouldn't the internal expectation be a flag?

[Bulldog4life]

I do not accept the over estimated our list, I am of the belief that we have simply underperformed.
We could not finish off games and I see that as a coaching issue.
I also believe the loss of Dunkley and even Hunter was a coaching issue.
Would love to know if we had anyone have serious chat with Dunkley from outside the coaching panel.

Or fitness?

[azabob]

Devils advocate on what basis have we clearly under performed?

We’ve finished in the 7-9 range of the ladder in 2015, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23.

[lemmon]

Agree on this. If a contracted player asks to leave they should be traded.

Absolutely - I think we need to start looking at it in the same way that soccer teams do. You can't let a player enter the last 12 months of their deal because you're going to lose them for nothing. You simply need to sell/trade while you still have some leverage, ie. a contract. Freo were able to extract maximum value for Lobb for that exact reason - we've targetted a guy who still has time on his deal and we've paid through the nose for a pretty mediocre role player.

I get that we got an extra few seasons from Dunkley, but at the end of the day we didn't win anything, he didn't really want to be here and we lost two years of midfield time that could've gone into Bailey Smith.

If a player wants out, then get them out the door and invest in people who want to be here. The whole 'sending a message' argument doesn't stack up because at the end of the day, players will still walk when their contract is up.

[Grantysghost]

Absolutely - I think we need to start looking at it in the same way that soccer teams do. You can't let a player enter the last 12 months of their deal because you're going to lose them for nothing. You simply need to sell/trade while you still have some leverage, ie. a contract. Freo were able to extract maximum value for Lobb for that exact reason - we've targetted a guy who still has time on his deal and we've paid through the nose for a pretty mediocre role player.

I get that we got an extra few seasons from Dunkley, but at the end of the day we didn't win anything, he didn't really want to be here and we lost two years of midfield time that could've gone into Bailey Smith.

If a player wants out, then get them out the door and invest in people who want to be here. The whole 'sending a message' argument doesn't stack up because at the end of the day, players will still walk when their contract is up.

Yep if they're not going to commit a year out, start looking at moving them on.

[Scorlibo]

I hope the club does think we're a shot at the flag. We finished 9th! Gws went from 16th to a prelim.

It doesn't take much to change, especially when we clearly underperformed. Lift output from the existing list, add some youth, cut the dead wood - why shouldn't the internal expectation be a flag?

I think you can have some realism with internal expectations while still carrying an attitude of not putting a ceiling on what can be achieved. Is it possible for us to win a flag next year? Yes. Should that be our ambition? Absolutely. But the same goes for 2025, 26, 27 etc. So which year or time period do we optimise for with list management and football department decisions? My view is that it's not next year, and probably not 2025 either.

[jazzadogs]

I think you can have some realism with internal expectations while still carrying an attitude of not putting a ceiling on what can be achieved. Is it possible for us to win a flag next year? Yes. Should that be our ambition? Absolutely. But the same goes for 2025, 26, 27 etc. So which year or time period do we optimise for with list management and football department decisions? My view is that it's not next year, and probably not 2025 either.

I think prime Bont means we should be actively chasing a flag. AA ruck English. Previous all Australians in Daniel, Dale, Macrae. One or two more years of Libba, Treloar, Liam Jones, JJ. Get more from developing Marra, Baz, Richards, JOD. Aim for Naughtons first year of 50+ goals. Lobb, Weightman both clearly AFL quality.

That top portion of our list needs to be utilised. You can't look at Collingwood's list and tell me they are clearly better - they just have a well executed plan which maximises their strengths. We have weaknesses to fill, but our issue is mindset, not talent - and that can be changed.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think prime Bont means we should be actively chasing a flag. AA ruck English. Previous all Australians in Daniel, Dale, Macrae. One or two more years of Libba, Treloar, Liam Jones, JJ. Get more from developing Marra, Baz, Richards, JOD. Aim for Naughtons first year of 50+ goals. Lobb, Weightman both clearly AFL quality.

That top portion of our list needs to be utilised. You can't look at Collingwood's list and tell me they are clearly better - they just have a well executed plan which maximises their strengths. We have weaknesses to fill, but our issue is mindset, not talent - and that can be changed.

Compared to Collingwood. They made hard decisions a f a years ago with quality players. They had a hard edge and run all day. I don’t thing we have been as good in these three areas. We should be but from the outside looking in. They have been more professional than us unfortunately

[Go_Dogs]

Compared to Collingwood. They made hard decisions a f a years ago with quality players. They had a hard edge and run all day. I don’t thing we have been as good in these three areas. We should be but from the outside looking in. They have been more professional than us unfortunately

Their point of difference is having so many players capable of kicking goals (and they kick some amazing goals under pressure) and somehow having the resolve to never drop a close game. I think mindset, strategy and fitness all play key parts. You create your own luck too.

Is their list better than ours? Hard to say. They’ve got a lot of players who’d be borderline 22 with us, but their side is much better than the sum of its parts and these players go from middling to players who are solid to elite.

[bulldogtragic]

Their point of difference is having so many players capable of kicking goals (and they kick some amazing goals under pressure) and somehow having the resolve to never drop a close game. I think mindset, strategy and fitness all play key parts. You create your own luck too.

Is their list better than ours? Hard to say. They?ve got a lot of players who?d be borderline 22 with us, but their side is much better than the sum of its parts and these players go from middling to players who are solid to elite.

They had our pay 2/3 of your salary cap to a few strategy and abandoned it (Adz, Grundy, Stevenson, Phillips etc) and do more on field with less as they?re still paying out some of those wages.

But we are determined to stick to it ($1M Bonts, any ruck/Tim, Naughton/struggles to kick bags, and then $700,000 or so likely on JUH, Lobb, Baz, Adz, Macrae etc). Bevo laments why we don?t have depth. It?s because we are doing what Collingwood were doing before they imploded. Paying a huge amount of cap to too few and having no depth in the 22 and a coach that couldn?t make that work. To be fair, how can you when you?re paying so much for a handful or so of players. You can then only afford McNeil, Baker, Poulter, VDM etc.

I mean everyone said Collingwood was nuts signing a ruck to a long term $1M deal and they were right. They forced him out not soon after and are paying 30% of his wage. But we are different, we will pay our ruck up to $1.3M long term and the results will be much different.

Yes Collingwood seem better coached, seem to have a better game plan and are stronger mentally. Yes our top end talent is probably better. But because they NOW spread their cap around their 22 has superior depth. Compare our last picked 4-6 compared to theirs and it?s probably no contest. But at least we will have resigned ours, locked them in for new marketing and hit the trade period looking for game changers like Coffield & Teakle.

I just don?t see following the strategy Collingwood spectacularly abandoned somehow working out different for us. But no doubt we will keep doing what we?ve been doing and the results will change because of an assistant coach shake up.

[Go_Dogs]

I hear what you’re saying BT, but I’m not sure I completely buy it. If anything because of the amount of salary they’re contributing to players no longer there, they probably have more middling players on the same or less as ours. They’ve just managed to turn those players (through development? Game plan? Fitness? Others? All of the above?) into consistent contributors.

They’ve had some salary cap pressure and have shed a number of players to help alleviate it, and they’ve got lucky in some ways eg De Goey where behavioural issues probably gave them some leverage to pay unders. Mitchell they got on the cheap. Pendlebury and Sidebottom may not quite command what they did at the height of their powers but are still important cogs. A lot of former rookies or undrafted/retread or later picks who are contributors (McCreary, Noble, Markov etc).

Moore would be incredibly well paid. Diacos bros will be (in time). Cox and Cameron wouldn’t be “cheap” but I suppose they are relative to what English is purportedly after.

Maybe it’s a bit chicken or the egg, however my hypothesis is they’ve got more middling players (similar to the types of names you mentioned for us) who don’t command massive salary and have got them humming. Rather than them having splashed a lot of cash on this tier of player which is generating a far superior result.

Edit: one important addition, is they draft and trade exceptionally well too for need. Identifying key AFL standard attributes they need to bringing them in. Talent identification and understanding of how it complements their list and strategy is exceptional.

[bulldogtragic]

I hear what you’re saying BT, but I’m not sure I completely buy it. If anything because of the amount of salary they’re contributing to players no longer there, they probably have more middling players on the same or less as ours. They’ve just managed to turn those players (through development? Game plan? Fitness? Others? All of the above?) into consistent contributors.

They’ve had some salary cap pressure and have shed a number of players to help alleviate it, and they’ve got lucky in some ways eg De Goey where behavioural issues probably gave them some leverage to pay unders. Mitchell they got on the cheap. Pendlebury and Sidebottom may not quite command what they did at the height of their powers but are still important cogs. A lot of former rookies or undrafted/retread or later picks who are contributors (McCreary, Noble, Markov etc).

Moore would be incredibly well paid. Diacos bros will be (in time). Cox and Cameron wouldn’t be “cheap” but I suppose they are relative to what English is purportedly after.

Maybe it’s a bit chicken or the egg, however my hypothesis is they’ve got more middling players (similar to the types of names you mentioned for us) who don’t command massive salary and have got them humming. Rather than them having splashed a lot of cash on this tier of player which is generating a far superior result.

Edit: one important addition, is they draft and trade exceptionally well too for need. Identifying key AFL standard attributes they need to bringing them in. Talent identification and understanding of how it complements their list and strategy is exceptional.

I think we in somewhat agreeance. They freed up their cap so they could afford to retain their then fringe players like Cox & Elliott. So they could afford to round out with Bobby Hill, McStay, Mitchell, Frampton, Lipinski etc.

There’s no way keeping all their guns on top dollar that they can bring in a range of role players and re-sign their existing ones. Yes they still have well paid players, but not like how they were set up. This is how we are set up and will be so, even more so, soon. Which is why we are gunning for Coffield & Teakle.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's kind of crazy that nearly all the premiers since us in 2016 have basically mimicked our gamestyle yet we can hardly do it now.

[Danjul]

Devils advocate on what basis have we clearly under performed?

We?ve finished in the 7-9 range of the ladder in 2015, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23.

There is only one year missing in that 2017 - 2023 sequence.

Why would that be? Did we recruit 22 fantastic 1 year players?

No! It was the same players who got the team to top of the ladder in round 20 in 2021 that failed both before and after.

And 7th is a fail. For decades it was necessary to finish In the top third of the competition to participate in finals. It was extended to approximately half to allow a couple of extra tv hours, not to reward quality.

So if a team is capable of being a ladder leader it?s underperforming at 7th.

2021 was the only year we did something different in the game plan. Kept it simple and logical. Instead of running around bragging about being average the leadership should go out and steal a better game plan- I think Collingwood?s could be a good start (although we killed them in 2022 by accidentally resurrecting a memory from the good year).

[JanLorMill]

Sorry to go over old ground here but the failure to make Brisbane pony up for Dunkley is one of our biggest failures in many years. Made our coach look silly. Sam Power’s rating went down by a lot.
Would rather have forced Dunkley into psd than hand a side at our level one of our best players for unders.
Would Brisbane be playing GF without him?

[Grantysghost]

Sorry to go over old ground here but the failure to make Brisbane pony up for Dunkley is one of our biggest failures in many years. Made our coach look silly. Sam Power’s rating went down by a lot.
Would rather have forced Dunkley into psd than hand a side at our level one of our best players for unders.
Would Brisbane be playing GF without him?

I understand the sentiment. I guess there's a bit of being a good citizen involved too and not having a reputation of treating players like commodities, rather like people.
Flipside, he was all #teamdunks with his choice of clubs. As many wiser have said prior to me leaving isn't the concern as much as the club he chose.

For that reason it would irk me if he won one up there, however it's a minor irk and he's a Lions player now so pffft.
I just hope we handled his exit in an optimal fashion (didn't have levers we didn't pull after he went) for the club.
There was no way the Lions were going to be able to pay what we wanted. Their future first, could've been anything (see Freo).

In future we need to trade prior to contract expiry if we don't get a solid commitment (except Bont).

[jeemak]

There is only one year missing in that 2017 - 2023 sequence.

Why would that be? Did we recruit 22 fantastic 1 year players?

No! It was the same players who got the team to top of the ladder in round 20 in 2021 that failed both before and after.

And 7th is a fail. For decades it was necessary to finish In the top third of the competition to participate in finals. It was extended to approximately half to allow a couple of extra tv hours, not to reward quality.

So if a team is capable of being a ladder leader it?s underperforming at 7th.

2021 was the only year we did something different in the game plan. Kept it simple and logical. Instead of running around bragging about being average the leadership should go out and steal a better game plan- I think Collingwood?s could be a good start (although we killed them in 2022 by accidentally resurrecting a memory from the good year).

The difference between making the final five vs. the final eight relative to the number of teams in the competition is ~2-3%.

In 2016 we won 15 games with a horrible run with injuries, versus 15 in 2021 with a more favourable run. I've always felt that in 2016 we were going to be one of the better if not the best sides with a decent run of health and that proved to be the case in the finals.

[Topdog]

I understand the sentiment. I guess there's a bit of being a good citizen involved too and not having a reputation of treating players like commodities, rather like people.
Flipside, he was all #teamdunks with his choice of clubs. As many wiser have said prior to me leaving isn't the concern as much as the club he chose.

For that reason it would irk me if he won one up there, however it's a minor irk and he's a Lions player now so pffft.
I just hope we handled his exit in an optimal fashion (didn't have levers we didn't pull after he went) for the club.
There was no way the Lions were going to be able to pay what we wanted. Their future first, could've been anything (see Freo).

In future we need to trade prior to contract expiry if we don't get a solid commitment (except Bont).

I'm all for getting a good reputation but sending him off for 0 1st round picks is absolutely terrible. Doing it for 1 would have been us being nice, remembering that we are also improving a rival by trading him there. Should have sent him to PSD.

[Danjul]

The difference between making the final five vs. the final eight relative to the number of teams in the competition is ~2-3%.

In 2016 we won 15 games with a horrible run with injuries, versus 15 in 2021 with a more favourable run. I've always felt that in 2016 we were going to be one of the better if not the best sides with a decent run of health and that proved to be the case in the finals.
This historical fact really annoys me. We were on top of the ladder cruising towards the minor premiership after 20 rounds.

Then what happened? Dropped 3 easily winnable games against Essendon, lowly hawthorn and Port and fell out of the top four. To add insult to injury we then beat Essendon and Port.

we had beaten the eventual premiers comfortably in round 19?

History hides the unbelievable selection stuff ups that nobody could understand at the time.

2021 was our year and the people controlling the strings destroyed it. It should have been 18 wins, minor premiership and an easy run to a premiership ( in my opinion).

But the only record for posterity is 15 wins and another Bevo finish outside the top four.

[bornadog]

I'm all for getting a good reputation but sending him off for 0 1st round picks is absolutely terrible. Doing it for 1 would have been us being nice, remembering that we are also improving a rival by trading him there. Should have sent him to PSD.

So you would rather we lost him for nothing instead of Pick 21, future first-round pick, future second-round pick and a future fourth (tied to Geelong) while the Lions also get a future third-round and fourth-round (tied to Melbourne).

[JanLorMill]

So you would rather we lost him for nothing instead of Pick 21, future first-round pick, future second-round pick and a future fourth (tied to Geelong) while the Lions also get a future third-round and fourth-round (tied to Melbourne).
Of course not but we have given Brisbane the keys to a grand final. It’s not like they didn’t know it then. Who needed him more? We were going to lose him but how desperate were Brisbane to get him? Being nice doesn’t pay.

[lemmon]

I'm all for getting a good reputation but sending him off for 0 1st round picks is absolutely terrible. Doing it for 1 would have been us being nice, remembering that we are also improving a rival by trading him there. Should have sent him to PSD.

Did doing that with Jack Martin help Gold Coast?

I feel like it's such an empty threat because at the end of the day, the player still gets to where he wants to go (ie. Luke Ball) but you've cut your nose off to spite your face. I think we simply need to treat players who are out of contract like they are free agents and if you want to extract any value from a player come trade time, you need to facilitate a trade while they're still in contract.

At the end of the day, we gambled on two extra seasons with Dunkley and lost. I hope we learn from that.

[G-Mo77]

So you would rather we lost him for nothing instead of Pick 21, future first-round pick, future second-round pick and a future fourth (tied to Geelong) while the Lions also get a future third-round and fourth-round (tied to Melbourne).

The F1 is 17 - 20s. We market it on a Future 1st but it's a glorified 2nd rounder. The return for Dunkley was pathetic! It was bad last year and it's even worse now. It was insulting for a player the quality of Dunkley and we happily said yes.

[lemmon]

Of course not but we have given Brisbane the keys to a grand final. It’s not like they didn’t know it then. Who needed him more? We were going to lose him but how desperate were Brisbane to get him? Being nice doesn’t pay.

How do you stop him from getting to Brisbane? I think we're ignoring precedent - when was the last time an out-of-contract player didn't get to the club they wanted to go to?

[Topdog]

Did doing that with Jack Martin help Gold Coast?
.

Did it hurt them?


How do you stop him from getting to Brisbane? I think we're ignoring precedent - when was the last time an out-of-contract player didn't get to the club they wanted to go to?


I would have preferred that we trade them early as per your actual suggestion but failing that if the other team is being a complete prick as Brisbane were than yes send him to PSD and wherever he ends up he ends up.

[jazzadogs]

The F1 is 17 - 20s. We market it on a Future 1st but it's a glorified 2nd rounder. The return for Dunkley was pathetic! It was bad last year and it's even worse now. It was insulting for a player the quality of Dunkley and we happily said yes.

Happily is a stretch. I think Power would have been bloody pissed off that his hand was forced in such a way. Once Dunkley nominated Brisbane, ridiculous AFL trade culture says that we basically just had to cop whatever they would give us. We tried to get players and the players refused.

Sending him to the PSD is madness. It was a crap deal, but it was the best we could do at the time.

[lemmon]

Did it hurt them?



I would have preferred that we trade them early as per your actual suggestion but failing that if the other team is being a complete prick as Brisbane were than yes send him to PSD and wherever he ends up he ends up.

That's my point though - he still ends up at Brisbane. Like Martin still got to Carlton and Luke Ball got to Collingwood through the National Draft.

I think the most likely scenario if we followed through on that threat was that Dunkley puts himself into the National Draft, the Lions use the pick 21 that we got in the trade and we end up looking a bit stupid out of the whole thing.

'Send them into the draft' doesn't work because no club will touch a player who doesn't want to be there and burn their draft currency in the process - Collingwood was put into the same situation with Ollie Henry but at least we got some service out of Dunkley.

I genuinely can't think of a time when an out-of-contract player didn't get to the club they wanted to go to. Jade Rawlings maybe?

[JanLorMill]

How do you stop him from getting to Brisbane? I think we're ignoring precedent - when was the last time an out-of-contract player didn't get to the club they wanted to go to?
Easy. We had a pick before Brisbane in the psd

[JanLorMill]

That's my point though - he still ends up at Brisbane. Like Martin still got to Carlton and Luke Ball got to Collingwood through the National Draft.

I think the most likely scenario if we followed through on that threat was that Dunkley puts himself into the National Draft, the Lions use the pick 21 that we got in the trade and we end up looking a bit stupid out of the whole thing.

'Send them into the draft' doesn't work because no club will touch a player who doesn't want to be there and burn their draft currency in the process - Collingwood was put into the same situation with Ollie Henry but at least we got some service out of Dunkley.

I genuinely can't think of a time when an out-of-contract player didn't get to the club they wanted to go to. Jade Rawlings maybe?
Nick Stevens didn’t get to Collingwood. Geelong didn’t bend over for Kelly and now an average player like ratugulea. Essendon do it every trade season. GWS didn’t for Hooper and Tarranto. They are are heaps of others. They know we are push overs and get treated like it.

[Topdog]

I think the most likely scenario if we followed through on that threat was that Dunkley puts himself into the National Draft, the Lions use the pick 21 that we got in the trade and we end up looking a bit stupid out of the whole thing.

And then they would have missed out on Fletcher wouldnt they?

[Grantysghost]

Happily is a stretch. I think Power would have been bloody pissed off that his hand was forced in such a way. Once Dunkley nominated Brisbane, ridiculous AFL trade culture says that we basically just had to cop whatever they would give us. We tried to get players and the players refused.

Sending him to the PSD is madness. It was a crap deal, but it was the best we could do at the time.

Yes, it might feel like a statement move to send someone to the PSD, however at the end of the day you're only hurting yourself. Nose to spite the face thing.
Clarke and another late first is better than nothing.

[Topdog]

Yes, it might feel like a statement move to send someone to the PSD, however at the end of the day you're only hurting yourself. Nose to spite the face thing.
Clarke and another late first is better than nothing.

lets not dress it up, 2 picks in the 20s is not late firsts.

[Grantysghost]

That's my point though - he still ends up at Brisbane. Like Martin still got to Carlton and Luke Ball got to Collingwood through the National Draft.

I think the most likely scenario if we followed through on that threat was that Dunkley puts himself into the National Draft, the Lions use the pick 21 that we got in the trade and we end up looking a bit stupid out of the whole thing.

'Send them into the draft' doesn't work because no club will touch a player who doesn't want to be there and burn their draft currency in the process - Collingwood was put into the same situation with Ollie Henry but at least we got some service out of Dunkley.

I genuinely can't think of a time when an out-of-contract player didn't get to the club they wanted to go to. Jade Rawlings maybe?

Ryan O'Keefe? He wanted to get to the Blues and there were threats of PSD.

[JanLorMill]

Ryan O'Keefe? He wanted to get to the Blues and there were threats of PSD.
Papley is another. He is entrenched now.
we are too nice.

[Grantysghost]

lets not dress it up, 2 picks in the 20s is not late firsts.

Agree it's a shit deal. Sick of picks pushing back, I guess the Dogs can't complain we've done it with Darcy and Marra.

[jazzadogs]

So you're not actually saying we send him to PSD, you're saying that we don't do a trade and then with the threat of PSD he turns around and signs a 5 year deal with us?

We tried the whole "refuse because the offer isn't good enough" thing at the end of 2020 - we're also being retrospectively criticised for that despite the feeling at the time being that the offer wasn't good enough.

Fact is when a b&f winner chooses to go to a top 4 team, you're not going to get adequate value.

[Grantysghost]

So you're not actually saying we send him to PSD, you're saying that we don't do a trade and then with the threat of PSD he turns around and signs a 5 year deal with us?

We tried the whole "refuse because the offer isn't good enough" thing at the end of 2020 - we're also being retrospectively criticised for that despite the feeling at the time being that the offer wasn't good enough.

Fact is when a b&f winner chooses to go to a top 4 team, you're not going to get adequate value.

The part that nearly irked me as much was Pickering in with the Lions cohort looking like he was laughing in disbelief that we'd actually want to hold out for a good deal.
I know he got us Boyd but man I dislike that bloke.

[JanLorMill]

So you're not actually saying we send him to PSD, you're saying that we don't do a trade and then with the threat of PSD he turns around and signs a 5 year deal with us?

We tried the whole "refuse because the offer isn't good enough" thing at the end of 2020 - we're also being retrospectively criticised for that despite the feeling at the time being that the offer wasn't good enough.

Fact is when a b&f winner chooses to go to a top 4 team, you're not going to get adequate value.
Sorry that’s not a fact for every team. Tim Kelly AA in that year went to west coast for 2 firsts plus. Cameron 9 time leading gws goal kicker went for 3 first rounds to top 4 Geelong. Slightly different Tom Lynch went for pick 3 as a free agent but Gcs would have matched the bid if it was worse compensation.
It’s arguable whether they got value for the players but none of them got reamed like us.

[lemmon]

Sorry that?s not a fact for every team. Tim Kelly AA in that year went to west coast for 2 firsts plus. Cameron 9 time leading gws goal kicker went for 3 first rounds to top 4 Geelong. Slightly different Tom Lynch went for pick 3 as a free agent but Gcs would have matched the bid if it was worse compensation.
It?s arguable whether they got value for the players but none of them got reamed like us.

I do hear what you're saying and think those are good examples, but I think it really was a case of Brisbane simply not having the draft currency to hand over so Power was on a hiding to nothing in trying to extract some value out of the trade.

I think the only way we were going to get something worthwhile was to get into a Lions player's ear and have them request a trade back the other way. Seems like we tried it with Lohmann who clearly wants to make his way with the Lions.

[Grantysghost]

I do hear what you're saying and think those are good examples, but I think it really was a case of Brisbane simply not having the draft currency to hand over so Power was on a hiding to nothing in trying to extract some value out of the trade.

I think the only way we were going to get something worthwhile was to get into a Lions player's ear and have them request a trade back the other way. Seems like we tried it with Lohmann who clearly wants to make his way with the Lions.

Yep they needed points for Ashcroft and Fletcher. He could simply not have picked a worse side.

[GVGjr]

I'm all for getting a good reputation but sending him off for 0 1st round picks is absolutely terrible. Doing it for 1 would have been us being nice, remembering that we are also improving a rival by trading him there. Should have sent him to PSD.

I'm not against this position but I'd imagine I'd lose it if he had have ended up at Essendon for nothing. :)
As a club you also run the risk of alienating the playing group if you treat a premiership player and B&F winner that way.

We didn't get an adequate return but Brisbanes hands were somewhat tied and unless we were confident we could get them to part with Lohmann they could always call our bluff.

[Scorlibo]

I do hear what you're saying and think those are good examples, but I think it really was a case of Brisbane simply not having the draft currency to hand over so Power was on a hiding to nothing in trying to extract some value out of the trade.


Yep they needed points for Ashcroft and Fletcher. He could simply not have picked a worse side.

I mean, they wanted points for Ashcroft and Fletcher just like they wanted Dunkley. You can't always get what you want. If there was a third first round father son for them last year it would have been obvious that something had to give, they couldn't have it all. As it stands they scraped through partially by securing Ashcroft with Pick 2. Part of me at the time thought that us bidding on Fletcher was vindictive, although he does look to be a very good player more than worthy of that selection.

[Scorlibo]

I think prime Bont means we should be actively chasing a flag. AA ruck English. Previous all Australians in Daniel, Dale, Macrae. One or two more years of Libba, Treloar, Liam Jones, JJ. Get more from developing Marra, Baz, Richards, JOD. Aim for Naughtons first year of 50+ goals. Lobb, Weightman both clearly AFL quality.

That top portion of our list needs to be utilised. You can't look at Collingwood's list and tell me they are clearly better - they just have a well executed plan which maximises their strengths. We have weaknesses to fill, but our issue is mindset, not talent - and that can be changed.

On the flipside, isn't it more likely that we get less out of the ageing Jones, JJ, Libba and Treloar? Bruce retired, Duryea and Keath on their last legs.

Naughton might have another gear but he's already a very good player. His limitations (goalkicking) seem to be inherent. There's certainly growth in Marra and JOD. Richards, Baz and Weightman I'm less sure that there's growth, although Baz has had better years than 2023, and could at least return to his best form.

I've been bullish on the upper echelon of the list as well, but they'll be declining in capability from here.

Our coaching team is seeing a significant shake up, and that's positive but will the new personnel gel as soon as next year?

Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong next year, but if we go into this trade period looking once again to bolster the now at the expense of the future, and then fall short, there could be some really rough years ahead.

[jazzadogs]

On the flipside, isn't it more likely that we get less out of the ageing Jones, JJ, Libba and Treloar? Bruce retired, Duryea and Keath on their last legs.

Naughton might have another gear but he's already a very good player. His limitations (goalkicking) seem to be inherent. There's certainly growth in Marra and JOD. Richards, Baz and Weightman I'm less sure that there's growth, although Baz has had better years than 2023, and could at least return to his best form.

I've been bullish on the upper echelon of the list as well, but they'll be declining in capability from here.

Our coaching team is seeing a significant shake up, and that's positive but will the new personnel gel as soon as next year?

Nothing would please me more than to be proven wrong next year, but if we go into this trade period looking once again to bolster the now at the expense of the future, and then fall short, there could be some really rough years ahead.

Trade targets have been James Jordon (22yo), Brynn Teakle (23yo) and Nick Coffield (22yo). We're also trying to get pick 4 to access an elite young player, as well as likely securing Croft. I think that's enough focus on the future?

I think we're balancing it well. I don't think we are at a point where the list should be completely gutted. If we can replace guys like Roarke, Crozier, Bruce with 22/23yo I think that's a net win.

[Grantysghost]

Trade targets have been James Jordon (22yo), Brynn Teakle (23yo) and Nick Coffield (22yo). We're also trying to get pick 4 to access an elite young player, as well as likely securing Croft. I think that's enough focus on the future?

I think we're balancing it well. I don't think we are at a point where the list should be completely gutted. If we can replace guys like Roarke, Crozier, Bruce with 22/23yo I think that's a net win.

What do you think Coffield is worth on the open market JD?

Former top 10 pick, I get the feeling the Aints might be stupidly wanting overs.

[bornadog]

Trade targets have been James Jordon (22yo), Brynn Teakle (23yo) and Nick Coffield (22yo). We're also trying to get pick 4 to access an elite young player, as well as likely securing Croft. I think that's enough focus on the future?

I think we're balancing it well. I don't think we are at a point where the list should be completely gutted. If we can replace guys like Roarke, Crozier, Bruce with 22/23yo I think that's a net win.

All young players and known quantities unlike some 4th or 5th round 18 year olds

[Bulldog4life]

I understand the sentiment. I guess there's a bit of being a good citizen involved too and not having a reputation of treating players like commodities, rather like people.
Flipside, he was all #teamdunks with his choice of clubs. As many wiser have said prior to me leaving isn't the concern as much as the club he chose.

For that reason it would irk me if he won one up there, however it's a minor irk and he's a Lions player now so pffft.
I just hope we handled his exit in an optimal fashion (didn't have levers we didn't pull after he went) for the club.
There was no way the Lions were going to be able to pay what we wanted. Their future first, could've been anything (see Freo).

In future we need to trade prior to contract expiry if we don't get a solid commitment (except Bont).

There is a WOOFER who is a keen Lion supporter. Now who is that?

[azabob]

There is a WOOFER who is a keen Lion supporter. Now who is that?

I know Chef and I are Lions supporters this week, but do we have a legit Lions supporter among us?

[Bulldog4life]

I know Chef and I are Lions supporters this week, but do we have a legit Lions supporter among us?

Yes but he will have to come forward himself.

[Grantysghost]

Yes but he will have to come forward himself.

I think i've been tagged as such : but it's all lies ...LIES I TELL YA.

Go Lions.

[Eastdog]

Looking back now we certainly got duded in that trade period and I'm keen to see if we can rectify it this time round.

Be really good if could improve our draft hand and get in someone in of quality who will be a huge contributor to the team.

Lobb had a great 2022 but was suspect in 2023. As one woofer said I would have loved players like Bedford, Hill and Acres.

[Axe Man]

I think i've been tagged as such : but it's all lies ...LIES I TELL YA.

Go Lions.

GG at 2:30pm this Saturday:
https://i.postimg.cc/c6qKBYbM/lions.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[bulldogtragic]

Dunkley Trade Official:

Brisbane got Dunkley
Dogs got Clarke & 1/3 of Pick 5 along with 1/3 of the three third rounders (draft point deficit in the pick swap and two fourths we may/probably won?t use.

[bulldogtragic]

If Gresham was end of 1st:

Lobb is Pick 33 this year but *could* be around 38 after bids (on top of 30 last year, pushed out to 33 after bids)
Hunter gets us Pick 57


Hunter looks a little worse
Lobb at 33 & 38 (after bids) looks a little better if he re finds form

Also we got Pick 39 or 40 for our third & the Hunter pick which offsets this years pick for Lobb. So you could argue loosely that the real cost for Lobb is 33 last year and two thirds this year. If you like that argument, then the cost of Lobb isn’t that high.

[bulldogtragic]

So we can do it properly now:

I can’t see any official record of a live trade with Sydney, so it’s based off that not happening.

Lobb: Picks 33 & 37 after bids (*notionally end of R2 & start of R3 picks)
Hunter (after being packaged into Pick 40 and then unpackaged: Freijah (& Coffield with the F3 that was in that unpackaging 40)
Schache: Pick deleted/nothing

Dunkley: Clarke, 1/3 Sanders, 1/3 Croft, 1/3 of the F3, Lach Smith, AOD (4th we demanded tied to Geelong), Freijah (by packaging up the two F3’s into the F2 which was unpackaged to slightly better picks to get part of Croft, and also Freijah & Coffield)

Twomey sees it the way I see it in an article this morning. The Dunkley pick went for Points/Picks. So the trade is now Pick 11 & F1 for Pick 6 & F3 plus getting Freijah.

(Huge salary cap relief)


So it’s that old chestnut about one good player in Dunkley. Or trading them out and using that trade in a way to acquire with creativity Sanders, Clarke, Croft, Freijah, Smith, AOD & Coffield - who all can be traced to some part of the sprawling Dunkley deal.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think Sanders alone might make the trade look alright. No pressure kid.