Melbourne's two premier ruck set-up

[GVGjr]

What do you think of Melbourne have two of the best ruckman on the same team.
I heard the coach saying a few weeks we wouldn't chase him if we didn't think it would work so clearly the have some plans.

Will Gawn push forward more or is Grundy going to play a bit deeper down back?

How do you see it working?

[Happy Days]

I dunno if it’ll “work” per se but I wanna see it. It’s pretty cool to see a team try something actually different.

[mjp]

Who was the ruckman for the premier? The runner up? 3rd? 4th?

Whatever there plans are, you don’t need a great ruckman...you just need a highly competitive one.

More column inches will be wasted on this than any other transaction and it won’t matter.

Hunter on one wing, Langdon on the other? Now you have my undivided attention.

[Dry Rot]

Gawn looked a bit cooked to me late last season FWIW.

[FrediKanoute]

Who was the ruckman for the premier? The runner up? 3rd? 4th?

Whatever there plans are, you don’t need a great ruckman...you just need a highly competitive one.

More column inches will be wasted on this than any other transaction and it won’t matter.

Hunter on one wing, Langdon on the other? Now you have my undivided attention.

This is the really big plus for the Dees. Their ability to control and transition the wings will be even greater than it was. I think this is a real big win for them.

[hujsh]

I think the ideal situation for us is that Hunter slows their ball movement down the way Hunter is want to do and with their lack of strong key forwards their I50 entries get less efficient.

That's my dream and until I see proof it won't happen that way I refuse to entertain all other scenarios.

[Go_Dogs]

Who was the ruckman for the premier? The runner up? 3rd? 4th?

Whatever there plans are, you don’t need a great ruckman...you just need a highly competitive one.

More column inches will be wasted on this than any other transaction and it won’t matter.

Hunter on one wing, Langdon on the other? Now you have my undivided attention.

2018 Hunter? Definitely not 2022 Hunter who was a massive liability when fit to play. We’ll see who turns up.

The ruck comment is a really good one. Both Grundy and Gawn are good competitors who have craft and can do a bit more than be competitive too. Balancing their time in their best spot will be the challenge as neither probably suit as more than 30% game time in other roles at this stage.

[Happy Days]

Who was the ruckman for the premier? The runner up? 3rd? 4th?

Whatever there plans are, you don’t need a great ruckman...you just need a highly competitive one.

More column inches will be wasted on this than any other transaction and it won’t matter.

Hunter on one wing, Langdon on the other? Now you have my undivided attention.

Maybe not last year but Melbourne's whole deal in 2021 was dominance in the ruck, coming to a head with what I'm told was a relentless two headed assault from Gawn and Jackson in the GF. In fact, we've had a front row seat to the effect of superior ruck play 3 straight finals series.

I agree that you can succeed with mediocre ruckwork but that doesn't mean it can't be an area of dominance to build around, especially with a midfield as good as Melbourne's is. It's a bold strategy that potentially puts their biggest strength in the best position to succeed. I wish my team would be so clever.

[bornadog]

Who was the ruckman for the premier? The runner up? 3rd? 4th?

Whatever there plans are, you don’t need a great ruckman...you just need a highly competitive one.

Thanks Bevo :D

Seriously, ruckman are over rated. They have to do more than tap outs.

[mjp]

Thanks Bevo :D

Seriously, ruckman are over rated. They have to do more than tap outs.

I never said that.

Ruckman are not over-rated - ruck is a specialist position and a CRITICAL one.

But Tom Hickey was AMAZING in the finals. Big Oscar is a tremendous asset to the Brions. You don't need Gawn and you don't need Grundy and you sure as hell don't need both.

They've made a mistake. It's OK. We made a mistake recruiting Treloar but Dunks has gone now so our midfield will rebalance.

You can't have players who are at their best the SAME position - but are in your best 10-12 players - competing for time in that spot. It doesn't work. It's why Khawai Leonard and LeBron James aren't on the same team...everyone says things like 'talent is king' and "they are such good players they'll work it out"...actually, they WONT. And in this case they can't 'cos they are BOTH RUCKMAN. And there is only ONE POSITION on the ground.

If you want to know how Fremantle have made an error by recruiting Jackson because they already have Darcy, well...I'm here all week. At least those two are YOUNG and can probably 'find a way' to make the ruck-forward tandem thing work...Gawn and Grundy are OLD and set in their ways...

This is dumb. Melbourne should have kept Bedford (and actually played him), forgotten about Grundy and gone and got Meek or Soldo or SOMEONE as emergency backup for Gawn.

While we're at it, what are Geelong doing?

Brandon Parfitt already can't get a game - so they decide to recruit Bowes and Bruhn to fill Selwood's spot? Yeah...great plan. And they are apparently using pick 7 on a young inside mid who is apparently ready to play? Yep - cool. I guess they got rid of Stephens to the Hawks so I guess that's one spot in the VFL team opening up, but he's better than Bowes...so...

And it's cool to say 'yeah, those guys will replace Duncan and Danger etc' but will they? I mean, the number 7 pick MIGHT be able to do that, but Duncan is an inside/outside player who has been spending time at HB...Bruhn is not doing that whilst his backside points to the ground.

All this Geelong worship does my head in. What did they ACTUALLY do to improve their team? (I WILL grant you Henry is a good get).

And Damien Hardwick getting a manicure waxing lyrical about getting Taranto and Hopper? Again, cool story. Where are they going to play? I still don't get it...having good players positioned AWAY from where they are best is a DUMB PLAN (Adam Treloar, that's your music) but they have (like we did) willingly put themselves in that position. Plus, the developing mids on their list who HAD been building to play an inside-outside hybrid role in support of Bolton, Graham, Cotchin, Prestia...well, now they are high forwards which for most will mean career over...what a great use of resources (draft capital, coaching etc)...

Winning trade period is such a joke...has your team used the opportunity to 'solve problems'/'fill gaps' on your list that held you back from making/winning finals?
- Geelong? No. Created a midfield logjam and it's not going to work.
- Richmond? No. Created a midfield logjam and it's not going to work.
- Melbourne? No. Created a midfield logjam and it's not going to work.
- Brisbane? No. Created a midfield logjam and it's not going to work. (I've posted on this already).
- Collingwood? Well...maybe. Getting Hill is a GOOD idea. Lipinski is a reserves player so Mitchell takes his spot...still think they are a defensive mid short....
- Freo? No. Got another OLD mid (replaces Mundy? whatever!) and a ruckman (already a position of strength) whilst losing key position depth (critical when one of your key planks is Alex Pearce)...

This rant will NEVER be over. Don't create an unbalanced list. And sure as hell don't do it ON PURPOSE.

[Boots]

I feel like 3rd man up and (to a lesser extent) 6-6-6 have made ruckmen more, not less important. It's deeply unfortunate that two exceptional ruckmen are in the same team, and that that team is already dominant. Mind you, that's the moral of this trade period - no equalisation for trades means the rich get richer (salary cap is a joke when players will chase success).

However, Melbourne's weakness remains their forward line. Fritsch and to a lesser extent Pickett are scary good but they're the best of a pretty average bunch. their game plan is about shock clearances and movement forward so rapidly that a team bound by 6-6-6 can't respond, which offsets the forward line's weaknesses. Getting Grunmdy signals a retreat to a gameplan where you just overpower your opponent by brute force in 2/3 segments of the ground. It will look awesome, but their structure isn't particularly flexible and I think any midfield/ruck negation tactics will continue to work on them despite Grundy.

It's not good news for the Dogs, however. We over-rate their offence because our defence is completely abysmal and it's always a crapshoot as to whose midfield gets on top. Their rock-solid defence and wings - specifically Langdon - make their transitions better than ours and give them the edge over us. Because of the bad matchups, Grundy makes Melbourne scarier for us, and our improved forward line won't necessarily be the difference we need it to be when we play them.

I think Hunter is a more fraught acquisition for Melbourne than they recognise. How do you think Hunter's problems with alcohol will go in a club helmed by a gambling addict with a tendency to self-aggrandise? I think this is a terrible move for him and I'll be really surprised if he flourishes at Melbourne. I'm not scared of him on their wing because he's so susceptible to off-field stuff.

[Mofra]

I never said that.

Ruckman are not over-rated - ruck is a specialist position and a CRITICAL one.

But Tom Hickey was AMAZING in the finals. Big Oscar is a tremendous asset to the Brions. You don't need Gawn and you don't need Grundy and you sure as hell don't need both.
Big Oscar was rookied in 2016, the year we took English in the first round.
We just have to rookie a ruckman this year. Have to.

TBH I think the chase for Grundy is partly to lighten the load on Gawn and Melbourne have been seduced by the idea of having a Jackson 'replacement'. I suspect they both are rested for the odd game in 2023.

Weirdly, Lobb would have been a much better fit for them but they weren't in the hunt.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What's just as baffling is why players like Taranto and Hopper choose teams that already have enough players in their position. Sure, back yourself in to get a permanent spot, but it's like Preuss going to north behind Goldstein because he couldn't get a game behind Gawn or Dunstan choosing melbourne because he couldn't get a game in St kildas midfield.

[mjp]

What's just as baffling is why players like Taranto and Hopper choose teams that already have enough players in their position. Sure, back yourself in to get a permanent spot, but it's like Preuss going to north behind Goldstein because he couldn't get a game behind Gawn or Dunstan choosing melbourne because he couldn't get a game in St kildas midfield.

Players don't see the world through a team prism. They see it through their own pov and the world looks (a lot) easier when you recognise the names on the page.

Geelong were improved this year because Atkins played in the mids and everyone UNDERSTOOD their role. Guthrie is a team player which really contributes to this...but now to add 'more' to that mix? It's not going to work.

[Sedat]

Who was the ruckman for the premier? The runner up? 3rd? 4th?

Whatever there plans are, you don’t need a great ruckman...you just need a highly competitive one.
Hopefully English can become this against the better ruckmen in the competition.

Our future success is heavily tied to our faith in English becoming an elite stoppage ruckman of the competition - so far he has fallen well short of this when it has really counted. Hopefully Lobb coming in will assist in managing English's ruck minutes better in game so he can actually be competitive at stoppages against quality ruckmen, but arguably the acquisition of Lade will be even more important in English's improvement in this area.

I can't remember a player who has been given more unequivocal support from their club than English. He owes so much to Bevo and the club and it is high time to start delivering when it really matters.

[bornadog]

I never said that.

I didn't say you did. That is more my opinion - we have to re think what a ruckman is now.

The traditional ruckman in the past was a lumbering guy that tapped the ball to his rovers, but as Sedat says, they are now different, they have to try and win the stoppage as well, plus they need to play well around the ground like an over sized midfielder.

Mids now are taller than ruckman in the past. One of the best all time ruckman was our own John Schultz, Brownlow medalist and represented Victoria 24 times - he was 191cm.

[Topdog]

Maybe not last year but Melbourne's whole deal in 2021 was dominance in the ruck, coming to a head with what I'm told was a relentless two headed assault from Gawn and Jackson in the GF. In fact, we've had a front row seat to the effect of superior ruck play 3 straight finals series.

I agree that you can succeed with mediocre ruckwork but that doesn't mean it can't be an area of dominance to build around, especially with a midfield as good as Melbourne's is. It's a bold strategy that potentially puts their biggest strength in the best position to succeed. I wish my team would be so clever.

You have missed a very key phrase from mjp though - highly competitive - unfortunately for us this is a big weakness of Timmy's

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You have missed a very key phrase from mjp though - highly competitive - unfortunately for us this is a big weakness of Timmy's

Yep. I mean highly competitive is a necessity in any position (and it's a key reason our midfield frequently falls away) but it is CRUCIAL for a ruck because it sets the direction at each stoppage. I agree we don't need a world beater. Just someone who can hold their own each contest. Sweet can do this but unfortunately can't do anything else and neither can Martin (who is 107. Thanks for the correction EW)

[1eyedog]

Grundy is a liability when Gawn is in the ruck.

[MrMahatma]

Grundy is a liability when Gawn is in the ruck.

Gawn isn't exactly Paul Salmon when it comes to playing fwd either.

I applaud their "let's give this a go" approach... but I think this makes them a worse team than without Grundy, cause they're going to essentially have a witches hat in the fwd line 100% of the time (Ok, Max is a bit better than that... but he's no star fwd).

[Bulldog4life]

I feel like 3rd man up and (to a lesser extent) 6-6-6 have made ruckmen more, not less important. It's deeply unfortunate that two exceptional ruckmen are in the same team, and that that team is already dominant. Mind you, that's the moral of this trade period - no equalisation for trades means the rich get richer (salary cap is a joke when players will chase success).

However, Melbourne's weakness remains their forward line. Fritsch and to a lesser extent Pickett are scary good but they're the best of a pretty average bunch. their game plan is about shock clearances and movement forward so rapidly that a team bound by 6-6-6 can't respond, which offsets the forward line's weaknesses. Getting Grunmdy signals a retreat to a gameplan where you just overpower your opponent by brute force in 2/3 segments of the ground. It will look awesome, but their structure isn't particularly flexible and I think any midfield/ruck negation tactics will continue to work on them despite Grundy.

It's not good news for the Dogs, however. We over-rate their offence because our defence is completely abysmal and it's always a crapshoot as to whose midfield gets on top. Their rock-solid defence and wings - specifically Langdon - make their transitions better than ours and give them the edge over us. Because of the bad matchups, Grundy makes Melbourne scarier for us, and our improved forward line won't necessarily be the difference we need it to be when we play them.

I think Hunter is a more fraught acquisition for Melbourne than they recognise. How do you think Hunter's problems with alcohol will go in a club helmed by a gambling addict with a tendency to self-aggrandise? I think this is a terrible move for him and I'll be really surprised if he flourishes at Melbourne. I'm not scared of him on their wing because he's so susceptible to off-field stuff.

Hunter and Cordy will shine at their new club's Mad Monday.