The Wings in 2023

[bulldogtragic]

There’s a bit of talk on who plays wing across various threads, and thought it easier to have it one thread.

Names across threads have been playing JJ, Daniel, VDM, Williams and Scott on the wing (or a DFA). I’m adding a name.

Now I’m trying to piece the season from the stats on top of what I saw in 2022. The question I have is what is Bailey Dale’s tank like? He’s got defensive skills and attacking skills for a winger. While playing off the HBF he’s kicked 16.3 (roughly 80% accurate) a lot of them on the run from 50m. Plus good for about .3 Goal Assists per game.

Now if he’s played further up the ground and gets more looks per game from 50m while 80% accurate is a nice attacking option for even an average of 1.5 shots per game. The easy shots Hunter traditionally missed (while kicking the hard ones) are as good as all goals in Dale’s hands.

Assuming the back 6 is (moving Dale):

B: Richards Bruce Keath/Gardner
HB: Daniel Jones Williams/Duryea


1. Does Dale have the tank to play wing?
2. If so, can the backline function as well without Dale?
3. If so, is his experience at both ends an advantage to posting him one wing?
4. If so, does that improve I50 entries?
5. If so, is his exceptional long range goaling and possibly 20 or so goals a season worth moving him again? Even if he averages 1.5 shots a game.


Edit: Just read an interview with Dale re his preseason before his breakout year down back. He said he trained with Hunter to improve his fitness.

[bulldogtragic]

Article, 28 January 2021, club website:

Over the past couple of seasons, Bailey Dale has threatened to establish himself as a key member of the Western Bulldogs side.

The 24-year-old has the skills to be a match-winner – as his 20 goals in six games at the back-end of 2019 proved to the football world.

With 59 games across six seasons at AFL level, at times Dale has been restricted by injuries and at times he’s battled for continuity in the senior side.

2020 was that sort of year. He played the first seven games before being sidelined with an ankle niggle, came back for two games but was forced out of the best 22 by season’s end.

But a big pre-season and some clear off-season focus areas have the agile goal-kicker primed to make 2021 his year.

“It’s been a different off-season for a lot of people, including myself,” Dale told westernbulldogs.com.au.

“I stayed at home and I’ve been working on the things I needed to work on at the end of last year. There’s a few things I’ve tried to really nail in the off-season.

“I was training with Ben Cavarra and Lachie Hunter for a lot of the off-season which was great. ‘Hunts’ is a pretty good runner, so training with him really helped me work on my fitness.”

The extra kilometres in the legs will – hopefully – give Dale the flexibility to play forward or push onto a wing.

He’s spent time across both roles already in his six years as a Bulldog.

“One of the big things at the end of the year was just getting my fitness back up to a level where I can try to push onto a wing as well and run hard both ways,” Dale said.

“We’ve got a few boys rolling through there at the moment, but that wing-forward role to be able to get up the ground, impact defensively and try to get on the end of a few and involved in the play is what I’ve worked on.

“Then it’s getting the ball in my hands and finishing off my work when I get the chance.

“I’m trying to add those strings to my bow, be as versatile as possible and try to have a good year.”

Off the field, some things have changed for Dale while some have stayed the same.

A year in the hub helped him strengthen relationships with his teammates – and he’s already built a connection with draftee Lachie McNeil, hosting him when he first moved across from South Australia.

He may also be one of good mate Toby McLean’s remaining barber shop customers post hub-life.

“Toby gave me a few haircuts in the hub which weren’t too bad,” Dale said.

“I’ve still got Tobes, he lives around the corner and I think he enjoys doing it.

“He got a lot of the boys up there and made a bit of a killing. He’s lost a few customers since we’ve been back in Melbourne though.”

[bornadog]

Personally, I wouldn't move Dale at all. He is an AA HBF and plays the role well. I wouldn't want to change that role and maybe upset the backline.

I am also not convinced with Williams anymore. He played very poorly in 2022 as a HBF and improved slightly when he was moved to the wing. Wings are a real dilemma at the moment.

Excellent thread to thrash out who should play wing.

[GVGjr]

There’s a bit of talk on who plays wing across various threads, and thought it easier to have it one thread.

Names across threads have been playing JJ, Daniel, VDM, Williams and Scott on the wing (or a DFA). I’m adding a name.

Now I’m trying to piece the season from the stats on top of what I saw in 2022. The question I have is what is Bailey Dale’s tank like? He’s got defensive skills and attacking skills for a winger. While playing off the HBF he’s kicked 16.3 (roughly 80% accurate) a lot of them on the run from 50m. Plus good for about .3 Goal Assists per game.

Now if he’s played further up the ground and gets more looks per game from 50m while 80% accurate is a nice attacking option for even an average of 1.5 shots per game. The easy shots Hunter traditionally missed (while kicking the hard ones) are as good as all goals in Dale’s hands.

Assuming the back 6 is (moving Dale):

B: Richards Bruce Keath/Gardner
HB: Daniel Jones Williams/Duryea


1. Does Dale have the tank to play wing?
2. If so, can the backline function as well without Dale?
3. If so, is his experience at both ends an advantage to posting him one wing?
4. If so, does that improve I50 entries?
5. If so, is his exceptional long range goaling and possibly 20 or so goals a season worth moving him again? Even if he averages 1.5 shots a game.



Dale is possibly the most versatile player we have on the list. He did very well as a forward and has done sensationally well as an attacking defender with the one caveat that he does not appear to be able to defend as well as we would hope.

I'm not sure we will be bold enough to make the move but I'm sure Dale would be turned into a very good winger for us. He might even slot in a few extra goals across the season. Food for thought BT.

[Rocco Jones]

I would not go with Caleb Daniel as I think size/leap can be important as a hit up. More 1:1 marking contests than HBF.

I would like us to have a go with Dale with Scott being more defensive on the other side. I get it's a risk and we would want him to go really well. Maybe opens up a spot on HBF.

[hujsh]

Maybe it depends partially on who we draft now? If we get a ready to go livewire small forward maybe Laitham/JJ need to work more on being wingmen as there's less opportunity up forward. If we don't find that forward they probably both stay where they are.

For me Scott is probably penciled in on one wing which leaves one opening. Dale is good backman so maybe if Dureya is injured and Williams is in poor form we can't afford to try him elsewhere. Who does that leave if JJ/Laitham train as forwards? Williams or Roarke?

[Grantysghost]

Treloar would make a decent winger.

[bulldogtragic]

I would not go with Caleb Daniel as I think size/leap can be important as a hit up. More 1:1 marking contests than HBF.

I would like us to have a go with Dale with Scott being more defensive on the other side. I get it's a risk and we would want him to go really well. Maybe opens up a spot on HBF.

It notionally does at a minimum. Could it be the opportunity to dangle in front of JJ, VDM & Crozier (did I read in a thread that Hannan was thrown back as well?) to work their hind quarters off over summer, to (re)discover their best footy to try revive their careers as natural back flankers? You’d think it would be a great motivator knowing Dale to wing means there’s a genuine shot at trying to cement a more natural role. From there who knows what happens. I don’t think anyone quite saw Daniel & Dale back would be as effective as it turned out. So who knows now?

[Mofra]

Treloar would make a decent winger.
Sorry, but I disagree. He's very see ball, get ball and just wouldn't be able to hold his width for the entire game the way a quality wing does. Ditto Macrae.

I suspect we won't know until the end of pre-season, but Bailey Williams and Anthony Scott may be the first two cabs off the rank. Roarke Smith next in line, with McNeill still a young developing kid who may get some pre-season time there to show what he can do (he did spend some outside mid minutes in the SANFL).

[Grantysghost]

Sorry, but I disagree. He's very see ball, get ball and just wouldn't be able to hold his width for the entire game the way a quality wing does. Ditto Macrae.

I suspect we won't know until the end of pre-season, but Bailey Williams and Anthony Scott may be the first two cabs off the rank. Roarke Smith next in line, with McNeill still a young developing kid who may get some pre-season time there to show what he can do (he did spend some outside mid minutes in the SANFL).

Don't apologise.

I disagree with your disagreement!

I think he would have the discipline to play the role. He's certainly got the physical attributes.

[EasternWest]

Treloar would make a decent winger.


Sorry, but I disagree. He's very see ball, get ball and just wouldn't be able to hold his width for the entire game the way a quality wing does. Ditto Macrae.

I suspect we won't know until the end of pre-season, but Bailey Williams and Anthony Scott may be the first two cabs off the rank. Roarke Smith next in line, with McNeill still a young developing kid who may get some pre-season time there to show what he can do (he did spend some outside mid minutes in the SANFL).

I actually think you both make good points.

[hujsh]

Did we try him there early 21 or was that just Baz?

[Axe Man]

I'm not sure who the 2023 Wings should be but I would like to see a Rocket Science Photoshop special with all the candidates included in this 1973 Band on the Run album cover.

https://i.postimg.cc/kXy5S4yF/wings.png (https://postimg.cc/TppGMTFp)

[Bumper Bulldogs]

What about VDM. If not injured. The other would have to be Adz

[Grantysghost]

I actually think you both make good points.

I didn't know the Flemington racecourse wall could post on woof.

[Bulldog4life]

Have seen Oliver Hollands matched with our club in a few phantom drafts. So thinking ahead he could be a long shot for a wing.Looking for info from others who have seen him play.

Pick 12 - Bulldogs: Oliver Hollands
Position: Midfielder
Height: 183cm
Weight: 71kg
Clubs: Wodonga, Murray Bushrangers

The younger brother of Gold Coast onballer Elijah, Ollie ranks as one of the most competitive outside midfield options in the draft.

Hollands is sure to be strongly considered by Carlton at Pick 11, but in the chance he slides, the Dogs will be waiting.

The Bulldogs have their key-position depths sewn up for some time, so their attention is sure to turn back toward their midfield.

The recent losses of Josh Dunkley and Lachie Hunter have opened gaps in Luke Beveridge's midfield group, with Hollands able to take the reins in a wing spot to allow Bailey Smith more freedom in the centre.

Hollands has been a standout for the Bushrangers in his time at NAB League level, while was named among Vic Country's best in three of their five matches this year.

An elite endurance athlete and promising mover of the Sherrin, the Dogs are sure to look keen on adding some more efficiency to their engine room.

https://www.zerohanger.com/2022-afl-mock-draft-picks-1-20-first-edition-128946/

[Swoop]

I see him as most likely taking his game to a wing at AFL level. He would be an excellent long term replacement for Hunter.

[F'scary]

What about VDM. If not injured. The other would have to be Adz

I thought we just finished shit-canning VDM on another thread.

[bulldogtragic]

Just to finish Dale as a weapon up the ground. Of his last 29 shots at goal in the last 3 years, he’s kicked 23.6. That’s goal kicking accuracy of 79.3%

The most accurate ever goal kicker, Michael Murphy, is 76.83%. Then Tory Dickson is 74.79%.

He is literally off the charts with his goal kicking accuracy. Getting more shots at goal is a potential new source to increase scoreboard return.


P.S. Cody Weightman is already the fourth most accurate player in VFL/AFEL History (73.03%).

[bornadog]

Just to finish Dale as a weapon up the ground. Of his last 29 shots at goal in the last 3 years, he’s kicked 23.6. That’s goal kicking accuracy of 79.3%

The most accurate ever goal kicker, Michael Murphy, is 76.83%. Then Tory Dickson is 74.79%.

He is literally off the charts with his goal kicking accuracy. Getting more shots at goal is a potential new source to increase scoreboard return.


P.S. Cody Weightman is already the fourth most accurate player in VFL/AFEL History (73.03%).

Before Dale was moved from the forward line to the backline, he was inconsistent and played some shocking games. He has been a revelation in the backline, and maybe that has improved him enough to be moved.

[Grantysghost]

Before Dale was moved from the forward line to the backline, he was inconsistent and played some shocking games. He has been a revelation in the backline, and maybe that has improved him enough to be moved.

He was de list worthy a few years ago. Really not physical enough as a forward.
Have to say I'm really surprised he's done so well.
He does have an elite trait, kicking... You need something an an AFL player and he's got that.

[bulldogtragic]

Before Dale was moved from the forward line to the backline, he was inconsistent and played some shocking games. He has been a revelation in the backline, and maybe that has improved him enough to be moved.

I’m wrestling with the wings. Moving the chess pieces in my head. The depth of quality wingers is low. If Dale can play wing well, with years of forward training and now years of defensive training. If he can offer a more offensive type of winger that’s a point of difference in his column, makes opponents have to plan for his ability to hit the scoreboard and there’s plenty of depth on the HBF.

But if he can’t be covered well enough, he stays down back. I wouldn’t move him forward as he was, but look at if he can do what he’s doing off the wing with that incredible goal kicking accuracy. If his tank has increased as he was saying in the article/interview it’s food for thought but only if we can cover him down back.

Assuming for four small/mid sized defenders. Can Daniel, Richards, Duryea, Williams, JJ, Crozier, VDM, O’Brien, Khamis, etc. provide enough that the net gain (at this point theoretical) for the side is of a good benefit?

[hujsh]

When's the last time we had a dangerous speedy winger in the team? Eagle?

[GVGjr]

Just to finish Dale as a weapon up the ground. Of his last 29 shots at goal in the last 3 years, he’s kicked 23.6. That’s goal kicking accuracy of 79.3%

The most accurate ever goal kicker, Michael Murphy, is 76.83%. Then Tory Dickson is 74.79%.

He is literally off the charts with his goal kicking accuracy. Getting more shots at goal is a potential new source to increase scoreboard return.


P.S. Cody Weightman is already the fourth most accurate player in VFL/AFEL History (73.03%).

It's one of the best indications of trying to get him up the ground. He was a very effective forward and then turned into an AA level defender. I think he could make the move to a wing.

[AshMac]

I remember seeing an article on Williams in the middle of 2021 where he credited his (unbelievable) form to a massive preseason. His agility, disposal, decision make were absolutely elite year round - I thought he was better than Dale that year personally - though not in as obvious a way.

Would love the club to have sat him down and said “the plan for you next year is a two way running wingman” and he has another huge offseason. He is a match winner IMO at his best form

I also fundamentally disagree Hunter and Dunkley leave a hole in our team. Too many “premium mids” not enough quality elsewhere got us nowhere

[hujsh]

I remember seeing an article on Williams in the middle of 2021 where he credited his (unbelievable) form to a massive preseason. His agility, disposal, decision make were absolutely elite year round - I thought he was better than Dale that year personally - though not in as obvious a way.

Would love the club to have sat him down and said “the plan for you next year is a two way running wingman” and he has another huge offseason. He is a match winner IMO at his best form

I also fundamentally disagree Hunter and Dunkley leave a hole in our team. Too many “premium mids” not enough quality elsewhere got us nowhere

Hunter leaves a hole. It's just that he left it there before leaving the club.

[Mofra]

I also fundamentally disagree Hunter and Dunkley leave a hole in our team. Too many “premium mids” not enough quality elsewhere got us nowhere
Dunkley is the best defensive midfielder in the AFL (the stats back it up). His is absolutely a massive loss

[hujsh]

Dunkley is the best defensive midfielder in the AFL (the stats back it up). His is absolutely a massive loss

Good as he is at it the general consensus would be that our defense as a mid unit is probably one of the worst in the league even before he left. I think this is one of those areas where we need buy in from all players and individual ability matters less than the overall team effort

[lemmon]

I wouldn't mind seeing Crozier handed the challenge leading into pre-season.

He's great in the air, he's a strong and powerful kick, he runs both ways and isn't afraid to dash with the footy. His footy needs a refresh and hopefully challenging him to improve his running and making that position his own would give him a new lease on the game.

I think Bailey Dale is a great shout too. We're pretty stocked with good half backs and, on paper, he's perfect for the role.

[dog town]

Mail suggests that at this stage we are planning pre-season to go with Williams and R.Smith. That’s come from someone in the playing group based on exit interviews. Not sure who else we are looking at using.

[AshMac]

Dunkley is the best defensive midfielder in the AFL (the stats back it up). His is absolutely a massive loss

There’s a difference between being a great player and leaving a hole in a team.

[Mofra]

There’s a difference between being a great player and leaving a hole in a team.
I would argue Dunkley probably isn't a 'great' player but his effect on the team is greater than his ability.
It's likely his absence in the centre means Bailey Smith and Adam Treloar get more centre square time.
Their weakness is exactly what Dunkley's forte was.

[EasternWest]

Mail suggests that at this stage we are planning pre-season to go with Williams and R.Smith. That’s come from someone in the playing group based on exit interviews. Not sure who else we are looking at using.

I think that COULD work, I actually think both of those guys have a bit to work with but it would be nice if they had a bit of pace.

[Go_Dogs]

I quite like the Truck and Roarke combination.

Truck didn’t have his greatest year but he’s got the ability to defend, strong enough in a contest and can roost the ball.

Roarke able to play the more shutdown role and work hard back and forward to create the extra number, while also having a strong presence in the air.

A lot of it will come down to structure and game plan as to who is the best fit. I’m not quite sure what that looks like, which means it’s hard to speculate who may be our best fit. It’s probably an area of the ground we’ve been lacking in from a strategic standpoint with other teams having more obvious role players in these positions with a clear focus.

[Dogs 24/7]

I quite like the Truck and Roarke combination.

Truck didn’t have his greatest year but he’s got the ability to defend, strong enough in a contest and can roost the ball.

Roarke able to play the more shutdown role and work hard back and forward to create the extra number, while also having a strong presence in the air.

A lot of it will come down to structure and game plan as to who is the best fit. I’m not quite sure what that looks like, which means it’s hard to speculate who may be our best fit. It’s probably an area of the ground we’ve been lacking in from a strategic standpoint with other teams having more obvious role players in these positions with a clear focus.

We are fortunate to have depth and I agree they could be a good pairing.

[MrMahatma]

Where to for Scott?

[GVGjr]

Where to for Scott?
He's still the ideal spare parts player.

[F'scary]

Mail suggests that at this stage we are planning pre-season to go with Williams and R.Smith. That’s come from someone in the playing group based on exit interviews. Not sure who else we are looking at using.

Truck: I think his best is as a defender. He just doesn't get enough of the ball as a winger.
Roarke: His disposal skills are a bit average. Also is not an accumulator. I like him as an interchange player, to be frank. He is good at filling gaps in forward, back and on the wing, but he is not a first choice winger.

We already have our number 1 winger: Bailey Smith. On the other wing, I would let a few fight it out for the spot. Anthony Scott, VDM, Roarke, Truck, Crozier, etc. Maybe have specialising in the role in the VFL for a few who are designated as playing primarily for that role.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I would argue Dunkley probably isn't a 'great' player but his effect on the team is greater than his ability.
It's likely his absence in the centre means Bailey Smith and Adam Treloar get more centre square time.
Their weakness is exactly what Dunkley's forte was.

I reckon we could do worse than move Daniel into the midfield to replace Dunkley where Caleb’s superior foot skills further afield would provide more opportunities for our forward line.

[GVGjr]

I reckon we could do worse than move Daniel into the midfield to replace Dunkley where Caleb’s superior foot skills further afield would provide more opportunities for our forward line.

It would be an interesting to see how he would go in that role NBP. I do like the suggestion of moving him into the midfield or even forward flank. The forwards might benefit from see a bit more of his passing.

[dog town]

It would be an interesting to see how he would go in that role NBP. I do like the suggestion of moving him into the midfield or even forward flank. The forwards might benefit from see a bit more of his passing.
Bevo deployed him around the ball lots of times in 2021 and especially in the period where we had no Dunkley/Treloar. My view is he is half back or he needs to be around the ball (includes high half forward at stoppages).

My issue with him forward is if we play 3 talls plus Weightman who nearly needs to be picked like a tall then Daniel doesn’t have the pressure skills to give us the right balance. If we were much smaller then having Daniel finding players in space would have more appeal.

I also think Daniel looked heavy last year. This is related to the knee issues he had late 21 and carried this year I dare say. Really want him to get a full preseason in, I can remember some players running past him in transition and he was really labouring this season.

[GVGjr]

Bevo deployed him around the ball lots of times in 2021 and especially in the period where we had no Dunkley/Treloar. My view is he is half back or he needs to be around the ball (includes high half forward at stoppages).

My issue with him forward is if we play 3 talls plus Weightman who nearly needs to be picked like a tall then Daniel doesn’t have the pressure skills to give us the right balance. If we were much smaller then having Daniel finding players in space would have more appeal.

I also think Daniel looked heavy last year. This is related to the knee issues he had late 21 and carried this year I dare say. Really want him to get a full preseason in, I can remember some players running past him in transition and he was really labouring this season.

Great points DT. One of the reasons Daniel was drafted was his outstanding Beep Test result and if he loses that he might come back to the field a bit.

[azabob]

Mail suggests that at this stage we are planning pre-season to go with Williams and R.Smith. That’s come from someone in the playing group based on exit interviews. Not sure who else we are looking at using.

Did that player ask to be given an opportunity as a wingman?

I’d go with Bailey Smith and either R.Smith or Scott as our defensive option.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I quite like the Truck and Roarke combination.

Truck didn’t have his greatest year but he’s got the ability to defend, strong enough in a contest and can roost the ball.

Roarke able to play the more shutdown role and work hard back and forward to create the extra number, while also having a strong presence in the air.

A lot of it will come down to structure and game plan as to who is the best fit. I’m not quite sure what that looks like, which means it’s hard to speculate who may be our best fit. It’s probably an area of the ground we’ve been lacking in from a strategic standpoint with other teams having more obvious role players in these positions with a clear focus.

Seconded.

Wingmen who are experienced, big, strong and can run are handy. Whether these 2 can perform consistently is questionable, but I think they round out our midfield better than the mix we've gone with previously. I've found it ironic that every time we play big games/finals, Roarke plays - and typically plays well - but he misses a lot of other games.

For right now, these 2 are our best options and give us a better balance of attack/defence.