Controversial Opinion: We will/would be BETTER with LOBB in the ruck and English up forward in 2023.

[mjp]

Lobb is with us (in part) because he wants to play forward.
English is determined (or so the jungle drums say) to be ruck, ruck, and nothing but.

Lobb is a BETTER contested ball ruckman than English.
English is a BETTER, more natural and versatile forward.

We should simply flip their starting roles and the team INSTANTLY becomes better.

This of course will never happen because happy players in the locker room create good vibes for days and is ultimately worth it's weight, but from a pure footy sense, the switcheroo makes so much sense. And for everyone who says 'Lobb isn't and never was a ruckman', let me tell you something ('cos I was there). When he was making his way as a young fella at Swan Districts he was EXCLUSIVELY a ruckman and the idea he might actually play somewhere else was laughable...yes, he was a mature age draftee but he played in a State u21's vs State 18's trial game back in 2013/14'ish and he was in the ruck for the state 21's.

Tim? Well...he's a unique talent but for a side that is screaming out for a Hudson style ruckman (keep it in tight, lay tackles, stir the 'pot') he will NEVER be that player...he is (showing my age and state) Graham Moss to the harder, tougher, more contested Stephen Michael (I guess I could say he is Jimmy Stynes to Scott Wynd??) and that is NOT going to change.

He IS a very talented and effective player. But he is the opposite of the ruckman we need and we have the solution not only on our list but in our starting 18.

(And all of this from someone who thought - and still thinks - the recruitment of Lobb was recruiting overkill and he is the last thing we need/needed).

[hujsh]

Lobb is with us (in part) because he wants to play forward.
English is determined (or so the jungle drums say) to be ruck, ruck, and nothing but.

Lobb is a BETTER contested ball ruckman than English.
English is a BETTER, more natural and versatile forward.

We should simply flip their starting roles and the team INSTANTLY becomes better.

This of course will never happen because happy players in the locker room create good vibes for days and is ultimately worth it's weight, but from a pure footy sense, the switcheroo makes so much sense. And for everyone who says 'Lobb isn't and never was a ruckman', let me tell you something ('cos I was there). When he was making his way as a young fella at Swan Districts he was EXCLUSIVELY a ruckman and the idea he might actually play somewhere else was laughable...yes, he was a mature age draftee but he played in a State u21's vs State 18's trial game back in 2013/14'ish and he was in the ruck for the state 21's.

Tim? Well...he's a unique talent but for a side that is screaming out for a Hudson style ruckman (keep it in tight, lay tackles, stir the 'pot') he will NEVER be that player...he is (showing my age and state) Graham Moss to the harder, tougher, more contested Stephen Michael (I guess I could say he is Jimmy Stynes to Scott Wynd??) and that is NOT going to change.

He IS a very talented and effective player. But he is the opposite of the ruckman we need and we have the solution not only on our list but in our starting 18.

(And all of this from someone who thought - and still thinks - the recruitment of Lobb was recruiting overkill and he is the last thing we need/needed).

This point remains to be seen. I can be convinced that on balance Lobb is enough of a better ruck that the team is better with English forward but Lobb was Freo's leading goalkicker and English has had a few good games as the 3rd forward. Maybe in time English will be the better forward but Lobb is superior for now IMO.

[Sedat]

Lobb is with us (in part) because he wants to play forward.
English is determined (or so the jungle drums say) to be ruck, ruck, and nothing but.

Lobb is a BETTER contested ball ruckman than English.
English is a BETTER, more natural and versatile forward.

We should simply flip their starting roles and the team INSTANTLY becomes better.

This of course will never happen because happy players in the locker room create good vibes for days and is ultimately worth it's weight, but from a pure footy sense, the switcheroo makes so much sense. And for everyone who says 'Lobb isn't and never was a ruckman', let me tell you something ('cos I was there). When he was making his way as a young fella at Swan Districts he was EXCLUSIVELY a ruckman and the idea he might actually play somewhere else was laughable...yes, he was a mature age draftee but he played in a State u21's vs State 18's trial game back in 2013/14'ish and he was in the ruck for the state 21's.

Tim? Well...he's a unique talent but for a side that is screaming out for a Hudson style ruckman (keep it in tight, lay tackles, stir the 'pot') he will NEVER be that player...he is (showing my age and state) Graham Moss to the harder, tougher, more contested Stephen Michael (I guess I could say he is Jimmy Stynes to Scott Wynd??) and that is NOT going to change.

He IS a very talented and effective player. But he is the opposite of the ruckman we need and we have the solution not only on our list but in our starting 18.

(And all of this from someone who thought - and still thinks - the recruitment of Lobb was recruiting overkill and he is the last thing we need/needed).
There is nothing remotely controversial about any of the above. If/when English gets ragdolled yet again by the better stoppage ruckmen in the competition (and it might be as early as tomorrow night), at least we have a proper option to stem the bleeding that isn't Bont, Jong, Hannan, Dunks, etc..

As much as we've addressed key list deficiencies in the off season, our premiership credentials in 2023 will be largely be determined by English and whether or not he can finally raise his game at stoppages to match the elite ruckmen of the competition. Our last 3 finals losses all occurred directly from this critical area of weakness. And in Lobb we have someone in our arsenal who can command the position in game at times when it might be desperately needed, should English continue to fall short of the mark.

[mjp]

...Lobb is superior for now IMO.

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

[Mofra]

Interestingly, I was thinking of starting a thread where we consider what we should have done in the 2016 draft.

Timmy is a unique player, but 7 years of development is a huge commitment for a guy that was taken ahead of Sean Darcy, Rowan Marshall (rookie), Oscar McInerney (rookie) and Sam Draper (rookie) in the same draft, all of whom arguably suit us better.

Then again, Bevo does care more about a ruck's around the ground work then their ruck craft...
Those guys may not get the same opportunity

[Axe Man]

This point remains to be seen. I can be convinced that on balance Lobb is enough of a better ruck that the team is better with English forward but Lobb was Freo's leading goalkicker and English has had a few good games as the 3rd forward. Maybe in time English will be the better forward but Lobb is superior for now IMO.

Agreed. Lobb has shown and produced more as a forward than Tim ever has.


...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

Not sure about that. Lobb is also a pretty decent lead and mark forward from what I've seen.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting case study.

Tend to think English's forward craft is overrated though. Beyond a few games/moments, not sure he's ever come close to showing what Lobb has in that part of the ground. Perhaps he would/could with designated minutes.

My fear with English is that he's a tweener - kind of good at rucking (well, besides the actual ruck craft), kind of good at being a forward option. Super talented though.

[lemmon]

Could we extend this a step further and say that we'd just be better suited with English playing forward, Sweet playing ruck and Lobb not being in the side?

Sweet, to my eye, is that bash-and-crash, contested ball ruck and is a better ruckman than Lobb - so why not just play Jordan ruck and English forward of the ball?

I do agree that we're crying out for that player, but I don't think Bevo would. We've seen time and again that unless you're a mobile big man, he's just not going to play you. I don't think Huddo would've played a game of footy under Beveridge and he probably would've copped the Will Minson treatment. I think it has a lot to do with why we haven't gone for a mature-aged ruck despite being desperate to add another to the list - what's the point of Bev won't play them?

[Happy Days]

Yep. Been on about this all off season but in a straight up centre square clearance Lobb is a much better ruckman than English is.

[hujsh]

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

I'm sure you've seen more Freo games than I have but I'm surprised you say that as that's the opposite impression I have of Lobb. Watching his highlights from last year I feel like it confirmed my impression from the game against us that he's actually a decently smart and capable leading forward, despite his height seemingly pushing him more towards a contested mark focused gameplay. Am I wrong?

TBH I only really see English's POD over Lobb being his around the ground gameplay (when he's actually on). In everything else Lobb is probably ahead


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2fbY33cfNA&ab_channel=BoyOhBoyWowee

[bornadog]

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

As much as we think, English wants to ruck, my gut says Lobb doesn't want to ruck.

In 2021, when Bruce went down, we switched English to the forward line and Lew Young took his role in the ruck. In the 5 games Tim played forward he kicked 2 goals.

[mjp]

As much as we think, English wants to ruck, my gut says Lobb doesn't want to ruck.


100% and I said that in the OP.

[mjp]

I'm sure you've seen more Freo games than I have but I'm surprised you say that as that's the opposite impression I have of Lobb. Watching his highlights from last year I feel like it confirmed my impression from the game against us that he's actually a decently smart and capable leading forward, despite his height seemingly pushing him more towards a contested mark focused gameplay. Am I wrong?

TBH I only really see English's POD over Lobb being his around the ground gameplay (when he's actually on). In everything else Lobb is probably ahead


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2fbY33cfNA&ab_channel=BoyOhBoyWowee

He was playing as a sole forward/paired with Tabener for most of the year...you don't have to be smart to make ONE lead. The challenge now is to work in amongst Naughton and Jamarra...THAT requires forward craft.

[Virgin-Dog]

The issue with playing English forward is that he’s one of our most effective defensive interceptors, and also is often a target on the flank/wing from kick outs. Playing him forward instead of ruck robs us of these opportunities. If we saw some combination of Busslinger improving rapidly, Crozier/Williams rediscovering form, Doedee recruited as a FA, etc then I think it suddenly becomes more feasible as we wouldn’t need English dropping back so often to intercept.

[1eyedog]

Lobb can't ruck. He's never been a starting 22 ruck and all his preseason stoppage work has been servicable at best. Playing as an u/21 ruck vs all of a sudden asking him to perform a big role change at AFL level and expecting him to be effective is a pipe dream as far as I'm concerned. Tim and Rory are as ineffective in the ruck as each other and reversing their roles is not going to make a big enough difference to the team's fortunes to warrant the potential kick back we'll get from both players not playing in their preferred positions.

One think I do like about Tim in the ruck is his ability to get around the ground and provide a target. He has an understanding when to drop back and has the ability to gut run forward to provide an option. Not sure we'd get that from Lobb.

[Mofra]

Could we extend this a step further and say that we'd just be better suited with English playing forward, Sweet playing ruck and Lobb not being in the side?

Sweet, to my eye, is that bash-and-crash, contested ball ruck and is a better ruckman than Lobb - so why not just play Jordan ruck and English forward of the ball?

I do agree that we're crying out for that player, but I don't think Bevo would. We've seen time and again that unless you're a mobile big man, he's just not going to play you. I don't think Huddo would've played a game of footy under Beveridge and he probably would've copped the Will Minson treatment. I think it has a lot to do with why we haven't gone for a mature-aged ruck despite being desperate to add another to the list - what's the point of Bev won't play them?
Sweet would have been brilliant in the 80s or 90s.
I'm not convinced on his around the ground work just yet. He's the perfect "first drop" ruckman for an AFL list though.

[Bulldog4life]

Agreed. Lobb has shown and produced more as a forward than Tim ever has.



Not sure about that. Lobb is also a pretty decent lead and mark forward from what I've seen.

When he kicked those goals against us at Marvel last year they were all from leads leading to the pocket and half forward line.

[Go_Dogs]

Can’t wait for English to dominate this year and change the tune of this thread.

Agree he’s also an awesome natural forward. But he can be a big banana ruck too. Not in the monster role, but in the I’ll get 25 important touches, mark everything and still kick a few goals mould.

[FrediKanoute]

No. But we would been better with Grundy in the ruck and English up forward.

[macca]

No. But we would been better with Grundy in the ruck and English up forward.

Fitting Grundy could be a challenge for the salary cap. Or it would require alot of brown paper bags quietly ushered away in wheel barrows

[Danjul]

No. But we would been better with Grundy in the ruck and English up forward.
When you sit back and look at the team performance English’s maximum contribution would be centre half back and second ruck. He is a better ball winner than anyone we have tried there lately. He would give the backline the confidence to straighten up and be attacking. And he is now good enough to neutralise Grundy.

Totally removing the failed tactic of running the ball around the boundary line with an infinite series of handball. That has repeatedly shown as the best way to get our forward players out of position and leave the backline unprepared for the rebound. Melbourne set up for it.

It also leaves the team out of energy later in the game, hence the astonishing fade-out which is becoming a hallmark.

Time to put the team and the club first.

All we need from the first ruck is to stop the opposition surges out of the centre, someone who can limit the 5 goals from 17 possessions in in 10 minutes.

Also, after Saturday I don’t see how Lobb’s performance can be rewarded with elevation. Contributed nothing.

We ridicule our own and accept that rubbish from imports.

[JanLorMill]

Fitting Grundy could be a challenge for the salary cap. Or it would require alot of brown paper bags quietly ushered away in wheel barrows
What we paying Lobb? Collingwood paying as well, easily done

[bornadog]

What we paying Lobb? Collingwood paying as well, easily done

Grundy looked cooked to me.

[JanLorMill]

Grundy looked cooked to me.
Most rucks seem to play well into their 30s but he still a better ruck than English and will stand up in finals.

[bornadog]

Most rucks seem to play well into their 30s but he still a better ruck than English and will stand up in finals.

Tim is only 25 years old and played 77 games. He is improving every year.

Rucks are not a problem, defence is.

[JanLorMill]

Tim is only 25 years old and played 77 games. He is improving every year.

Rucks are not a problem, defence is.
The past 4 finals campaigns say ruck is a problem.

[bornadog]

The past 4 finals campaigns say ruck is a problem.

GF - yes, other finals no

[azabob]

GF - yes, other finals no

English wasn’t great in the finals 19 & 20. GWS and Saints. Mind you, neither was the entire team!!

I’m sure he could’ve done more last year V freo to help stem the tide at the source.

[bornadog]

English wasn’t great in the finals 19 & 20. GWS and Saints. Mind you, neither was the entire team!!

I’m sure he could’ve done more last year V freo to help stem the tide at the source.
19 and 20 gee he was a 21 year old baby

[Jasper]

19 and 20 gee he was a 21 year old baby

Wasnt he already 19 the year we drafted him (2016) and was into his 4th season with us in 2020.
Doesnt that make him 23 by the finals in 2020?

[bornadog]

Wasnt he already 19 the year we drafted him (2016) and was into his 4th season with us in 2020.
Doesnt that make him 23 by the finals in 2020?

He was born in August 1997 - ok 22 years old by finals. End of 2019 he played 29 games.

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

[Jasper]

He was born in August 1997 - ok 22 years old by finals. End of 2019 he played 29 games.

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

Where did I have a go at him? I just disagreed with your math and that at 23 yo in the 2020 finals that he was a baby.
Im a fan of Timbo and have never bagged him.

[bornadog]

Where did I have a go at him? I just disagreed with your math and that at 23 yo in the 2020 finals that he was a baby.
Im a fan of Timbo and have never bagged him.

Not pointing the finger at you, sorry if it sounded that way.

Tim should be starting to peak now and played a good game on the weekend. Hopefully he will continue to improve.

[MrMahatma]

He was born in August 1997 - ok 22 years old by finals. End of 2019 he played 29 games.

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

It's not "Tim" people have the issue with. It's the role of the ruckman. I think most would say Tim is a good player and worth having on the list and developing, but also that in previous years wasn't yet physically up to being the #1 ruck and that hurt us.

I agree he's about to hit his prime. I think he has growth left in him too. I also think he needs support.

[Sedat]

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.
Younger and less experienced ruckmen have destroyed Tim in key finals. He has been given almost carte blanche since 2019 to make the no. 1 ruck position his own and the progression has been slow - this unwavering faith in Tim as our no. 1 ruckman has already been incredibly costly in our last 3 finals losses (2022 EF, 2021 GF and 2020 EF).

Complicating things is that he has amazing talents in other parts of his game that are very rare and valuable, but he has been a liability at ruck stoppages more often than he has been a weapon. It is ok to ask questions of the return on investment to date and the expected return in future.

You obviously disagree and that's fine - he's obviously not yet close to being Polly Farmer or Simon Madden, and at his age and experience profile there are still question marks as to whether or not he can become that elite stoppage ruckman. I hope he can, because more than any off-season recruiting it makes us a real premiership threat this year and in the years to come if he can raise his game in this critical area of weakness for us (and him).

[Dogs 24/7]

Younger and less experienced ruckmen have destroyed Tim in key finals. He has been given almost carte blanche since 2019 to make the no. 1 ruck position his own and the progression has been slow - this unwavering faith in Tim as our no. 1 ruckman has already been incredibly costly in our last 3 finals losses (2022 EF, 2021 GF and 2020 EF).

Complicating things is that he has amazing talents in other parts of his game that are very rare and valuable, but he has been a liability at ruck stoppages more often than he has been a weapon. It is ok to ask questions of the return on investment to date and the expected return in future.

You obviously disagree and that's fine - he's obviously not yet close to being Polly Farmer or Simon Madden, and at his age and experience profile there are still question marks as to whether or not he can become that elite stoppage ruckman. I hope he can, because more than any off-season recruiting it makes us a real premiership threat this year and in the years to come if he can raise his game in this critical area of weakness for us (and him).

That is a stat that gets missed in the desperate attempt to protect Tim from scrutiny and I dont get why because its a fact based comment. Turning 26 this year we cant keep playing hes a work in progress card. He needs some support that is all and we shouldnt keep shying away that it's time for him to step up and make an impact.

[Danjul]

That is a stat that gets missed in the desperate attempt to protect Tim from scrutiny and I dont get why because its a fact based comment. Turning 26 this year we cant keep playing hes a work in progress card. He needs some support that is all and we shouldnt keep shying away that it's time for him to step up and make an impact.

Are these actually a thing in this modern politically correct era?

If you say English’s weakness in centre bounces against certain opponents has cost us games it is interpreted as unfair, critical, unsupportive, negative……

In the old days it would have been the starting point for investigating whether it was true. Yes it is. So how do we minimise the risk while still getting maximum benefit from his enormous talent. By using him more wisely. And that could be easy.

On Saturday we had Lobb, Darcy and Naughton to fall back on as plan B. Three forwards who got 1 goal between them.

We were happy for all to fail as forwards and support rucks. After all, it was just a game and they might be better later.

Darcy: 6 disposals.
Hannan: 6 disposals.
Lobb: 6 disposals.
JJ: 6 disposals.
McLean: 5 disposals.

These all did OK. In Hannah’s case 1 of his 3 kicks went went straight over the boundary line. So it was a bonus for the opposition. Yet I have read here that he did Ok.

Why is it OK? Because we are not fact driven.

We need to address an extremely important simple fact. What has been glaringly obvious for a long time.

Forget these passengers- we are not using our superstar (English) sensibly. He needs genuine support and the best support we have is derided and ignored because he might get 6 disposals.

It doesn’t make sense, and that is a fact.

[bornadog]

Younger and less experienced ruckmen have destroyed Tim in key finals. He has been given almost carte blanche since 2019 to make the no. 1 ruck position his own and the progression has been slow - this unwavering faith in Tim as our no. 1 ruckman has already been incredibly costly in our last 3 finals losses (2022 EF, 2021 GF and 2020 EF).
.

Which young ruckman are you talking about? Darcy destroyed him last year, but is 1 year younger and has played more games than Tim? In the GF we had Martin helping out and Tim wasn't number one - Yes Jackson did well in that spurt, but Gawn was the killer.

2020 EF - Rowan Marshall is older than Tim, but he barely touched the ball, Ryder did the damage.

Ruck is not our biggest problem. We win clearances and contested Poss in most games. (except as mentioned previously, Centre Clr v Dees) The issue is defense and delivery to fwd 50.

[Sedat]

Which young ruckman are you talking about? Darcy destroyed him last year, but is 1 year younger and has played more games than Tim? In the GF we had Martin helping out and Tim wasn't number one - Yes Jackson did well in that spurt, but Gawn was the killer.

2020 EF - Rowan Marshall is older than Tim, but he barely touched the ball, Ryder did the damage.

Ruck is not our biggest problem. We win clearances and contested Poss in most games. The issue is defense and delivery to fwd 50.
Strongly disagree with the assertions in the above. Jackson destroyed us in 8 minutes - that 'spurt' single-handedly decided the GF. We would barely even be talking about this if those 8 minutes didn't exist, as we'd all still be drunk from the greatest GF win in VFL/AFL history. Gawn was actually well under control for 2.5 qtrs (mostly from Martin) in the 2021 GF, and he was white-hot in their first 2 finals. So yes, Jackson and Darcy are both younger and both destroyed us in our last 2 finals losses.

Ryder is of course older but he helped St Kilda score 4 goals directly from boundary throw-ins in a low scoring game decided by less than a kick. That's about as damaging and costly in a final as you get in one area.

Tim has been a sunk cost at the pointy end thus far, one we have been willing to accept for a future pay-off. I want that pay-off and I want it badly. The question is, are we going to get it? Is Tim dog-hungry competitive as a stoppage ruckman and is he willing to do whatever it takes to negate and beat the big dogs? Does he have the stoppage ruck craft and the strength to hold his ground, or even overcome, the best opposition ruckmen? He's proven he can beat up on the clydesdale ruckmen for fun, but can he raise his game against the absolute best? If he can, we win at least a premiership in the next 2-3 years. That's how important Tim is to our fortunes.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

It's controversial because both have stated they do not want to.
The modern world catering to egos.
It seems like an obvious move for the club which must come first.
No prima donnas this club demands better.
Is the cropped tail wagging the bulldog?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Cant delete.

[Dogs 24/7]

Strongly disagree with the assertions in the above. Jackson destroyed us in 8 minutes - that 'spurt' single-handedly decided the GF. We would barely even be talking about this if those 8 minutes didn't exist, as we'd all still be drunk from the greatest GF win in VFL/AFL history. Gawn was actually well under control for 2.5 qtrs (mostly from Martin) in the 2021 GF, and he was white-hot in their first 2 finals. So yes, Jackson and Darcy are both younger and both destroyed us in our last 2 finals losses.

Ryder is of course older but he helped St Kilda score 4 goals directly from boundary throw-ins in a low scoring game decided by less than a kick. That's about as damaging and costly in a final as you get in one area.

Tim has been a sunk cost at the pointy end thus far, one we have been willing to accept for a future pay-off. I want that pay-off and I want it badly. The question is, are we going to get it? Is Tim dog-hungry competitive as a stoppage ruckman and is he willing to do whatever it takes to negate and beat the big dogs? Does he have the stoppage ruck craft and the strength to hold his ground, or even overcome, the best opposition ruckmen? He's proven he can beat up on the clydesdale ruckmen for fun, but can he raise his game against the absolute best? If he can, we win at least a premiership in the next 2-3 years. That's how important Tim is to our fortunes.

How quick we forget the damage Jackson did and I agree we cant continue to make excuses for Tim anymore unless its to acknowledge that he needed a better supporting team around him along the way.

[Happy Days]

Based on what I saw in the pre-season games and with the pre-Lobb recruitment acknowledgment that Tim needed better support, there’s just no way Lobb was brought in to not play significant ruck minutes.

I’m willing to buy that in light of his ankle issues he was played more forward than he will be upon his return and really think this concern will be assuaged.

[mjp]

but Gawn was the killer.


Ummm. Nope.

Jackson was the killer.

[bornadog]

Ummm. Nope.

Jackson was the killer.

Did it even happen as I honestly can't remember. :mad:

I had to look up Stats and Gawn had the most hit outs, but take your word for it.

[Dogs 24/7]

Did it even happen as I honestly can't remember. :mad:

I had to look up Stats and Gawn had the most hit outs, but take your word for it.

Stats tell just part of the story and should not be passed off as an undeniable fact. When Jackson went on that rampage we couldnt contain him.

[bornadog]

Stats tell just part of the story and should not be passed off as an undeniable fact. When Jackson went on that rampage we couldnt contain him.

Well I wasn't going to go back to the replay

[Danjul]

Well I wasn't going to go back to the replay
No need to. Might get one next time we play them.

[Dogs 24/7]

Well I wasn't going to go back to the replay

Got it thank you. You checked the stats and made the assumption it was Gawn not Jackson. Stats only tell part of the story.

[lemmon]

It's taken a season, but we might be there

[bornadog]

It's taken a season, but we might be there

Well Tim will be crowned AA ruckman on Wednesday and he deserves it

[Dry Rot]

It's taken a season, but we might be there

Agreed, Lobb in the ruck helped turn the game our way.

[jeemak]

Half and half lads. Share the shit, share the glory.

[lemmon]

Half and half lads. Share the shit, share the glory.

Reckon it's circumstance-led rather than just a simple 50-50 split though. Thinking back to the 2021 GF where Jackson was dominating - he rucks unchanged and the Dees overwhelmed us. Same thing with us tonight - they have English's number so Lobb goes in and it's a completely different look. The 50-50 split doesn't seem to work ala Grundy/Gawn or even Jackson/Darcy - it has to be more nuanced than that.

I think it's a huge weapon being able to chop and change between the two depending on circumstance and who's got the upper hand against the opposition ruck. They are also very different players in there. Lobb's ability to get down and dirty at the centre clearance wasn't something I thought he had in his game.

[westdog54]

Reckon it's circumstance-led rather than just a simple 50-50 split though. Thinking back to the 2021 GF where Jackson was dominating - he rucks unchanged and the Dees overwhelmed us. Same thing with us tonight - they have English's number so Lobb goes in and it's a completely different look. The 50-50 split doesn't seem to work ala Grundy/Gawn or even Jackson/Darcy - it has to be more nuanced than that.

I think it's a huge weapon being able to chop and change between the two depending on circumstance and who's got the upper hand against the opposition ruck. They are also very different players in there. Lobb's ability to get down and dirty at the centre clearance wasn't something I thought he had in his game.

Dare I say it, there were shades of Ben Hudson in Lobb's endeavour tonight.

He's had some missteps but was magnificent tonight. If the Blues get up tomorrow he'll go into next week with some confidence.

[bornadog]

Rory Lobb has hinted at a shift to more time in the ruck as the Bulldogs look to shake off a disappointing 2023. The 30-year-old also revealing how his mid-season axing fuelled a late season comeback.

watch story here: https://twitter.com/7NewsMelbourne/status/1743904129842622852

[josie]

Rory Lobb has hinted at a shift to more time in the ruck as the Bulldogs look to shake off a disappointing 2023. The 30-year-old also revealing how his mid-season axing fuelled a late season comeback.

watch story here: https://twitter.com/7NewsMelbourne/status/1743904129842622852

I like this. English moved to backline up our sleeve, when teams are having a run on, as an extra in defence could help us too.

[MrMahatma]

We’re moving the land of giants to the centre bounce. Lobb, English and Darcy all on the ball.

[Vred]

We’re moving the land of giants to the centre bounce. Lobb, English and Darcy all on the ball.

Caleb Daniel ruck, Lobb, English, Darcy at the bounce.

Do it once for the memes

[Happy Days]

I’ve always thought that Lobb is a better ruck than forward (and that he’s given credit for generally) so I’m for this. Tim is a superstar but solo rucking is way too taxing to be viable, especially when we have capable support in great supply.

[Mantis]

I’ve always thought that Lobb is a better ruck than forward (and that he’s given credit for generally) so I’m for this. Tim is a superstar but solo rucking is way too taxing to be viable, especially when we have capable support in great supply.

Tim was out of gas by the end of the year and given he's had an interrupted pre-season, which could be due to his heavy load in 2023 we need to ensure he is capable of playing the entire season at an extremely high level, which we know he is capable of. Having Rory share the load can only benefit us.

[Bulldog Joe]

We?re moving the land of giants to the centre bounce. Lobb, English and Darcy all on the ball.

What could possibly be wrong with that?

[GVGjr]

Tim was out of gas by the end of the year and given he's had an interrupted pre-season, which could be due to his heavy load in 2023 we need to ensure he is capable of playing the entire season at an extremely high level, which we know he is capable of. Having Rory share the load can only benefit us.

He certainly looked to be tiring in that last past of the season so I agree having Lobb increase his ruck work in most of the games should be a positive for the club and the players. A few more spells on the bench or even up forward should strike a a better balance.

We've got a very good match day ruck combination, tweaking the balance to utilise their talents is the key.

[Bullies]

Happy to cut Lobb some slack on last year as well. By all accounts he should not have played the first part of last year and only made his ankle worse coming back to soon after finally having the op. Has a good tank as well and can play up the ground. He is also one who can kick a goal.

[Sedat]

We've got a very good match day ruck combination, tweaking the balance to utilise their talents is the key.
Better late than never. If we use these two correctly all season (not just in R24), we have a couple of studs in the team that will cause all sorts of problems for the opposition wherever they are deployed.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I still can't fathom how or why we recruit Lobb to play second ruck/forward, only to basically not play him as a second ruck.

Maybe I am underselling Lobb's injury / conditioning and he simply wasn't able to do it as originally planned.

[bornadog]

I still can't fathom how or why we recruit Lobb to play second ruck/forward, only to basically not play him as a second ruck.

Maybe I am underselling Lobb's injury / conditioning and he simply wasn't able to do it as originally planned.

But, he did play second ruck, however, not for long stints, which is what I think you are alluding too.

[Brass Dog]

Definitely up for Lobb spending more time in there in 2024. Keep Tim fresher by doing a 60-40 or 70-30 split with Lobb.

[Dazza]

Ideally I'd prefer to see Darcy come on in leaps and bounds and take Lobbs role off him

[Mofra]

Darcy needs to of us on staying on the paddock... and he's probably going to be a victim of his own flexibility this year.
I suspect next year he really challenges Lobb given he will still probably be a little underweight for significant ruck duties at AFL level.

[GVGjr]

I still can't fathom how or why we recruit Lobb to play second ruck/forward, only to basically not play him as a second ruck.

Maybe I am underselling Lobb's injury / conditioning and he simply wasn't able to do it as originally planned.

Lobb's injury late in the preseason really unraveled the start of his season. I'm optimistic of what he might bring us this year.

[Can Bar]

Ankles and Ruckman, are like Half back flankers and hammy's. You cannot expect optimal performance if not 100%. The difference being that Ruckman can still play with a dodgy ankle at a reduced output. Looking forward to seeing what Lobb can bring, when at 100%

[doggiesin08]

Tim was out of gas by the end of the year and given he's had an interrupted pre-season, which could be due to his heavy load in 2023 we need to ensure he is capable of playing the entire season at an extremely high level, which we know he is capable of. Having Rory share the load can only benefit us.
Agree with this. Tim solo rucking needs to be considered across the season, not just as a within game workload issue.

Possibly a multi-year career consideration too. Probably gets an extra 1-2 years out of himself with ruck support and spending more time just floating a kick behind the play like Gawn does. Offsets the slight salary difference to stay too.

[jeemak]

Lobb played 98% TOG in 2022 as Fremantle's second if not major target, and kicked 36 goals.

As our third forward target in 2023 with a bit of ruck relief he missed a few games due to form but still kicked 24 goals at 85% TOG. His disposals were down 0.8 a game, marks 1.2 a game, goals 0.5 a game on average. Probably something you'd see if someone went from second/ first banana to third.

Everyone would admit he disappointed, but I reckon by how much he did should be up for debate. Adapting to a new system and having his role changed from the year prior drastically might have had a justifiable impact on his output.

[weltschmerz]

Tim should still be our main ruck, but giving him a bit more of a rest from the ruck makes a lot of sense. He can be effective anywhere, Lobb can step in if Tim is getting physically monstered. Down the line I'd love to see an English/Darcy ruck/forward duo rather than Tim playing almost entirely ruck.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Lobb played 98% TOG in 2022 as Fremantle's second if not major target, and kicked 36 goals.

As our third forward target in 2023 with a bit of ruck relief he missed a few games due to form but still kicked 24 goals at 85% TOG. His disposals were down 0.8 a game, marks 1.2 a game, goals 0.5 a game on average. Probably something you'd see if someone went from second/ first banana to third.

Everyone would admit he disappointed, but I reckon by how much he did should be up for debate. Adapting to a new system and having his role changed from the year prior drastically might have had a justifiable impact on his output.

Agree with this.

It was overblown how "bad" he was. I had hoped for a little more, but again, we probably underestimate how much of an impact that injury had. I thought he had a better second half of the year and clearly finished strong.

I like his ruck work so I hope we see him in there more.

[josie]

Agree with this.

It was overblown how "bad" he was. I had hoped for a little more, but again, we probably underestimate how much of an impact that injury had. I thought he had a better second half of the year and clearly finished strong.

I like his ruck work so I hope we see him in there more.

Agree. I think he feels more comfortable and seems popular with the team now. I think his ruck work is quite clever, in fact to my eye he hits to advantage more than Tim. Plus his long bomb goals are a highlight for me.

[bornadog]

Agree. I think he feels more comfortable and seems popular with the team now. I think his ruck work is quite clever, in fact to my eye he hits to advantage more than Tim. Plus his long bomb goals are a highlight for me.

Except that Tim is in the AFL top 3 for Hitouts to Adv.

[azabob]

Except that Tim is in the AFL top 3 for Hitouts to Adv.

Best Debate Topic Ever. Except maybe players heights! ;)

[bornadog]

Best Debate Topic Ever. Except maybe players heights! ;)

Hey what about weight :D

[Grantysghost]

Hey what about weight :D
Who you got lined up for the Lewis Young KFC appreciation award this year BAD?

[bornadog]

Who you got lined up for the Lewis Young KFC appreciation award this year BAD?

Haven't seen the players yet, but Williams better watch it :D

[GVGjr]

Hey what about weight :D

Damn it go for the BAD trifecta of Weight, Age and Height. :)

[josie]

Except that Tim is in the AFL top 3 for Hitouts to Adv.


Well, I do wear specs!!😁

[ledge]

Here’s a piece from SEN on Lobb .. thoughts ?
https://apple.news/A1mCSGrktSTepkXNjbBau0w

[weltschmerz]

Here’s a piece from SEN on Lobb .. thoughts ?
https://apple.news/A1mCSGrktSTepkXNjbBau0w

Cornes with a shit clickbait take, must be a day ending in Y.

[SonofScray]

Here’s a piece from SEN on Lobb .. thoughts ?
https://apple.news/A1mCSGrktSTepkXNjbBau0w

No substance. Occasionally Cornes will strike a nerve with it, in the same way a broken clock is right twice a day but you can tell even his heart isn't in this one.

Cobb might end up playing quite a bit of time as our ruck, if English has to be managed, or can't get through the season.

[bornadog]

Here’s a piece from SEN on Lobb .. thoughts ?
https://apple.news/A1mCSGrktSTepkXNjbBau0w

Waiting for his annual sack Bevo article.

[The Underdog]

Except that Tim is in the AFL top 3 for Hitouts to Adv.

Jordon Sweet would have been top 2

[bornadog]

jordon sweet would have been top 2

https://media2.giphy.com/media/aTXHpCN7TSpmE/200.gif

[Sam]

Yeah and you if we didn’t get Lobb Cornes would be criticising us for putting so much pressure on a 20 year old who is still a stick if or when English gets injured. Can’t win with this guy his issues with Bevo are becoming nauseating.

[whythelongface]

Yeah and you if we didn’t get Lobb Cornes would be criticising us for putting so much pressure on a 20 year old who is still a stick if or when English gets injured. Can’t win with this guy his issues with Bevo are becoming nauseating.

So true. ?This is me reading between the lines?? . Hello what else do you do Kane?. Nothing you write is substantiated, it is merely an opinion based on nothing. Similar to a Herald Sun or Sky News columnist- just write what will cause a headline.

Anyway on topic I do hope we rotate English and Lobb through the ruck and forward line a lot more than last year. Makes us more unpredictable and minimises some of the workload placed on English. Throw Darcy into the mix at times and potentially we have a three pronged approach to the ruck contest. I do hope we continue to place more emphasis on the ruck contest as this has been an area of frustration in recent times - this doesn?t just lie with the ruck itself but our ability to take advantage from our hit outs.

[doggies ftw]

I can?t agree with this one, in no way is Lobb a better genuine ruck in the ruck contest than English. It?s night and day to be honest.

Plus English is 100x better as a contested mark around the ground, better ball user, better runner etc which all translates to better performance in the ruck.

The sample size is way too small for Lobb, yeah he?s a great chop out compared to almost every other chop out in the league, but rucking 80% game time week in week out is a completely different beast.

English?s lack of physicality at times frustrates me to no end but let?s be honest, Lobb makes English look like Barry Hall when it comes to physicality, he?s probably one of the softer 200cm blokes in a contest in the league. I still like what he brings, but a tougher look in the ruck is not one of those things IMO.

In saying that I like English forward, and I like Lobb getting a bigger chop out in the ruck as English is at his best when he?s not being run into the ground - which we negligently did last year.

I think a 60/40 ruck/fwd for English and vice versa for Lobb is the perfect mix which gives us a little bit more unpredictability. And we need to be quicker to make a change if English is well beaten etc which we never do, more than happy to sub English off mid game if he?s going poorly and move Lobb in there and open up the forward line for a Weightman etc

[GVGjr]

I can?t agree with this one, in no way is Lobb a better genuine ruck in the ruck contest than English. It?s night and day to be honest.

Plus English is 100x better as a contested mark around the ground, better ball user, better runner etc which all translates to better performance in the ruck.

The sample size is way too small for Lobb, yeah he?s a great chop out compared to almost every other chop out in the league, but rucking 80% game time week in week out is a completely different beast.

English?s lack of physicality at times frustrates me to no end but let?s be honest, Lobb makes English look like Barry Hall when it comes to physicality, he?s probably one of the softer 200cm blokes in a contest in the league. I still like what he brings, but a tougher look in the ruck is not one of those things IMO.

In saying that I like English forward, and I like Lobb getting a bigger chop out in the ruck as English is at his best when he?s not being run into the ground - which we negligently did last year.

I think a 60/40 ruck/fwd for English and vice versa for Lobb is the perfect mix which gives us a little bit more unpredictability. And we need to be quicker to make a change if English is well beaten etc which we never do, more than happy to sub English off mid game if he?s going poorly and move Lobb in there and open up the forward line for a Weightman etc

Your assessment is fairly accurate and Lobb is a forward who can ruck so we need English to be fit and firing to get the balance right.
Complicating things just a bit is that Darcy is making some strong progress this year and it poses a challenge on if we can squeeze him into the best 22 or not.