Sharp Axes

[EasternWest]

I like the word jettisoned I'm sticking with it.

He plays high half forward/pushing into mid at Pies. I think that's where we played him?

Did we ask him to play wing?

Edit : I found a reference to wing in an afl article no direct quote.

My point is, if we sold the future to him with he being a part of it he'd be playing 200 games for us and not the Pies.

McComb played high half forward when he left. There was room. Now there's more.

You lot will never convince me a.) we couldn't have kept him and b.) he's no good especially when he is straight back into the top side this weekend.

I don't recall anyone saying he was no good.

[Grantysghost]

We had Adam Treloar and Bailey Smith playing the high half forward roles, and rotating through the middle where Jack, Bont, Dunkley and Libba got first crack.

Lipinski got some time there, but he was asked to play wing and had issues with being asked to continually improve his speed to facilitate higher performance in the role.

Personally I think he left one year early given Dunkely was never going to stay, but he got an immediate opportunity with the Pies and good luck to him.

He's an extremely neat finisher and user of the football, and very handsome which is a bonus. Good luck to him, but don't bullshit around by saying we jettisoned him.

Where’s the bullshit? My opinion is bullshit? I think I’ve provided reasonable explanations cmon you’re better than that.

I believe we pushed him out with poor management, ergo jettisoned. Why make him a winger it’s so not his go, especially when he was played as an inside mid in the VFL. As for spots when he left we did play McComb high half forward so that’s just a moot point (no spots). We just didn’t manage his skill set well or sell a vision for a future that he was part of. That’s on the club I believe.

First I’ve heard of him being asked to improve his speed, it’s certainly not a strength and something you’d expect him to work on though.

I know that he was asked to work on his tackling.

I’ll leave it there as it appears to be touching a nerve for some reason unbeknownst to me.

Did you start a trade Lipinski thread I missed?

[kruder]

Any chance our fitness team needs a refresh?

[Grantysghost]

I don't recall anyone saying he was no good.

I’m no narc!

[EasternWest]

I’m no narc!

Well I hope it wasn't me now.

[Grantysghost]

I have zero regrets that Lipinski isn't at our club anymore, and I'm happy he's going well.

Your second point almost won me back over. Impossibly dreamy.
Bob Murphy called him the eclipse because you couldn’t stare at him for too long.

[1eyedog]

Anyway, back on topic.

The team, to MJP's point, is actually playing committed football at the moment and outside of butchering shots at goal vs. Geelong and passing vs. Port has been up to its eyeballs in a very tough three game stretch - after a pretty tough start to the year fixture/ travel wise.

If we were putting in efforts like the first two rounds or losing to shit kickers I'd understand the angst, but right now I don't get the level that's being projected. I get there's things that need improving across selection, list management and a few other things, but the willingness to panic and pile on at the moment is over the top for mine*.

*Lose against Norf and I'm right into it, however! :)

Dude you pile on in the game day thread every single week lol!

Anyway, one loss away from shit throwing is close enough I spose.

[jeemak]

Where?s the bullshit? My opinion is bullshit? I think I?ve provided reasonable explanations cmon you?re better than that.

I believe we pushed him out with poor management, ergo jettisoned. Why make him a winger it?s so not his go, especially when he was played as an inside mid in the VFL. As for spots when he left we did play McComb high half forward so that?s just a moot point (no spots). We just didn?t manage his skill set well or sell a vision for a future that he was part of. That?s on the club I believe.

First I?ve heard of him being asked to improve his speed, it?s certainly not a strength and something you?d expect him to work on though.

I know that he was asked to work on his tackling.

I?ll leave it there as it appears to be touching a nerve for some reason unbeknownst to me.

Did you start a trade Lipinski thread I missed?

Here's the reference to the speed and tackling piece.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-former-western-bulldogs-midfielder-patrick-lipinski-relishing-greater-opportunity-at-collingwood/news-story/13801003fb7547abf74774e78388bef7

Apologies for the blunt language, but I actually think we did what we could to get him into the side due to his talent, it's just the role that was available didn't suit him.

With respect to your points around Robbie McComb, they weren't on the list at the same time, so inserting him into the conversation is just conflating the issue to suit a point and I don't really get it.

[jeemak]

Dude you pile on in the game day thread every single week lol!

Anyway, one loss away from shit throwing is close enough I spose.

Narc!

It's the game day thread. It's specifically there for un-nuanced commentary whilst the game is on, and sober/ balanced reflection once it's finished. I think my posting record in that particular thread is on point thanks very much!!!!

[Topdog]

Dude you pile on in the game day thread every single week lol!

Anyway, one loss away from shit throwing is close enough I spose.

Game Day thread is a safe space for those of us with emotions running high

[GVGjr]

This week was the first time I've heard Bevo imply that the list isnt as good as he thought when he said we're a rung below the top 4 teams. That was a big concession for mine because prior to that it has always been we can beat anyone.

It's okay if we think we got it wrong but the devil is in the detail here and the actions at the end of the season need to match how we perform.

[mjp]

It's okay if we think we got it wrong but the devil is in the detail here and the actions at the end of the season need to match how we perform.

You don't need the best list to win the Grand Final. We actually CAN beat anyone...if we didn't all believe that then threads like this wouldn't exist.

[GVGjr]

You don't need the best list to win the Grand Final. We actually CAN beat anyone...if we didn't all believe that then threads like this wouldn't exist.

Absolutely agree, and it's one of the reasons why I don't easily accept the list isn't strong enough whenever we go through a rough patch. For clubs to be successful it's often a combination of a few things going right for them.

[mjp]

Absolutely agree, and it's one of the reasons why I don't easily accept the list isn't strong enough whenever we go through a rough patch. For clubs to be successful it's often a combination of a few things going right for them.

Yep. I just get frustrated when the "our list is super talented and it's all Bevo's fault" is also accompanied by an argument that talks about the short-comings of a large number of players on our list...Seriously, whether we roll with Hannan, West or McComb does anything REALLY change? We need Bont fit and Naughton back in form...

[Grantysghost]

Yep. I just get frustrated when the "our list is super talented and it's all Bevo's fault" is also accompanied by an argument that talks about the short-comings of a large number of players on our list...Seriously, whether we roll with Hannan, West or McComb does anything REALLY change? We need Bont fit and Naughton back in form...

So true we spend so much conversation energy on the 16-23 players(who let's face it need to be solid role players at best) we overlook the more important things. We sound be focusing more on Macrae, Smith, Lobb, McNeil the real difference makers. That 6-15 crew.

[EasternWest]

So true we spend so much conversation energy on the 16-23 players(who let's face it need to be solid role players at best) we overlook the more important things. We sound be focusing more on Macrae, Smith, Lobb, McNeil the real difference makers. That 6-15 crew.

Ha ha

[Sedat]

Yep. I just get frustrated when the "our list is super talented and it's all Bevo's fault" is also accompanied by an argument that talks about the short-comings of a large number of players on our list...Seriously, whether we roll with Hannan, West or McComb does anything REALLY change? We need Bont fit and Naughton back in form...
If you look at every premiership team in the last 20 years (probably longer), there is always a sprinkling of role-players and fringe types who share the dais with the superstars - save for the worst 8 minute patch in our club history, the likes of Hannan, Roarke Smith, Schache, and one-legged pensioner Stef Martin would have premiership medals.

Like any team, we need our superstars in peak form in order to be a high quality finals team - when Naughts and English don't fire, or if Bont or Libba is quelled and kept quiet, we lose more often than not, same as any club really.

The more interesting question is if our game plan in 2023 is amenable to future success. This game changes quickly, and I hope Bevo is nimble enough to understand and adjust accordingly. I thought we made adjustments in our defensive profile from R3-10 to make sure we contend at the business end this year, but the ease with which we are being scored against in the last 3 weeks is a concern. We ae being sliced open, which has been a consistent theme of this team since 2019 when we notionally started contending again after our mini-rebuild post GF. The last 3 weeks aren't a surprise - my worry is that rounds 3-10 are the outlier and we still don't have that consistent defensive capability to defend the entire ground off turnover nailed down.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If you look at every premiership team in the last 20 years (probably longer), there is always a sprinkling of role-players and fringe types who share the dais with the superstars - save for the worst 8 minute patch in our club history, the likes of Hannan, Roarke Smith, Schache, and one-legged pensioner Stef Martin would have premiership medals.

Like any team, we need our superstars in peak form in order to be a high quality finals team - when Naughts and English don't fire, or if Bont or Libba is quelled and kept quiet, we lose more often than not, same as any club really.

The more interesting question is if our game plan in 2023 is amenable to future success. This game changes quickly, and I hope Bevo is nimble enough to understand and adjust accordingly. I thought we made adjustments in our defensive profile from R3-10 to make sure we contend at the business end this year, but the ease with which we are being scored against in the last 3 weeks is a concern. We ae being sliced open, which has been a consistent theme of this team since 2019 when we notionally started contending again after our mini-rebuild post GF. The last 3 weeks aren't a surprise - my worry is that rounds 3-10 are the outlier and we still don't have that consistent defensive capability to defend the entire ground off turnover nailed down.

I think we know the answers to the bolded part.

Bevo is stubborn. I've always said it's part of what delivers out-of-world results (2016 and largely 2021) but also regular failures (2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023).

What has evolved / changed? There's always little things, but the core principles of HOW we play remain the same i.e. flicking the ball around, no tag, defenders playing in front, extra forward up at stoppage, player flexibility, second ruck (although that finally changed this year).

I have zero confidence he can or will change the nucleus of how we attack and defend. Out the back goals have been the norm for years, as has being sliced through the middle of the ground, as have mid-forward connection struggles and bulk I50 entries for modest to little return.

He is who he is. We won the flag in 2016 and were a goal away from doing it again in 2021, but everybody has an expiration date.

[Bulldog Joe]

I don't see the issue as being the list.

It is a competitive list and all the top teams have role players doing their job who are not and will not be stars.

My issue is game plan where we continually have a congested forwardline limiting the options for forwards to lead.

It requires someone to almost take mark of the year every quarter because there are very few options to lead up and take uncontested marks within goal scoring distance.

We switch and switch until we turn it over and then the opposition has an unimpeded run towards their goals.

It has never been a sustainable method, but we persist with it.

This is on the head coach.

[kruder]

If you look at every premiership team in the last 20 years (probably longer), there is always a sprinkling of role-players and fringe types who share the dais with the superstars - save for the worst 8 minute patch in our club history, the likes of Hannan, Roarke Smith, Schache, and one-legged pensioner Stef Martin would have premiership medals.

Like any team, we need our superstars in peak form in order to be a high quality finals team - when Naughts and English don't fire, or if Bont or Libba is quelled and kept quiet, we lose more often than not, same as any club really.

The more interesting question is if our game plan in 2023 is amenable to future success. This game changes quickly, and I hope Bevo is nimble enough to understand and adjust accordingly. I thought we made adjustments in our defensive profile from R3-10 to make sure we contend at the business end this year, but the ease with which we are being scored against in the last 3 weeks is a concern. We ae being sliced open, which has been a consistent theme of this team since 2019 when we notionally started contending again after our mini-rebuild post GF. The last 3 weeks aren't a surprise - my worry is that rounds 3-10 are the outlier and we still don't have that consistent defensive capability to defend the entire ground off turnover nailed down.

Yep bang on Sedat.

Melbourne didn't win yesterday because their forward line was a thing a beauty, it won because their defence was excellent and their leaders stepped up when it counted. I was at the Geelong game and it was like I was transported back to 2022 with the way we defended the turn over that night, how many games do you win when you give up more than 85 points? I'm more down on the forward line in regard to pressure, Port got so many easy goals that started deep in our back half the other night.

I know the stats don't show it but even against Port we lost centre clearance at the wrong time and were unable to get a stop when it counted to allow us to build some momentum in the game.

We could get the best forward line coach in the country but it wouldn't matter because for what ever reason we haven't been able to defend for a number of years now.

[Hotdog60]

Can I ask why do we always concede the first kick out? Wouldn't it better to stay man on man and make them kick to a contest around 50 or 60 meters out rather than letting it get the half way point.
There always seems to be an easy kick to the pocket.

[hujsh]

Can I ask why do we always concede the first kick out? Wouldn't it better to stay man on man and make them kick to a contest around 50 or 60 meters out rather than letting it get the half way point.
There always seems to be an easy kick to the pocket.

I daresay tactically most coaches like the easy kick to the pocket because you can then compress the zone tighter and theoretically make it harder to kick through.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I daresay tactically most coaches like the easy kick to the pocket because you can then compress the zone tighter and theoretically make it harder to kick through.

The way we've defended the kick in / allowed them to move the ball to multiple areas of the ground in the last 3 weeks has been abysmal. Up until that, we were doing a better job on condensing / controlling where we want the opposition to move the ball. It's fell away badly when we've been tested, particularly by better opposition.

[meenies]

Opposition clubs love it when we do this. They bottle us up and we constantly turn these ones over.

[GVGjr]

I daresay tactically most coaches like the easy kick to the pocket because you can then compress the zone tighter and theoretically make it harder to kick through.

In the last couple of games Dale has often targeted Daniel with shorter passes and I guess the hope has been that he will get the ball through the traffic. Not sure how successful it's been.

[FrediKanoute]

If you look at every premiership team in the last 20 years (probably longer), there is always a sprinkling of role-players and fringe types who share the dais with the superstars - save for the worst 8 minute patch in our club history, the likes of Hannan, Roarke Smith, Schache, and one-legged pensioner Stef Martin would have premiership medals.

Like any team, we need our superstars in peak form in order to be a high quality finals team - when Naughts and English don't fire, or if Bont or Libba is quelled and kept quiet, we lose more often than not, same as any club really.

The more interesting question is if our game plan in 2023 is amenable to future success. This game changes quickly, and I hope Bevo is nimble enough to understand and adjust accordingly. I thought we made adjustments in our defensive profile from R3-10 to make sure we contend at the business end this year, but the ease with which we are being scored against in the last 3 weeks is a concern. We ae being sliced open, which has been a consistent theme of this team since 2019 when we notionally started contending again after our mini-rebuild post GF. The last 3 weeks aren't a surprise - my worry is that rounds 3-10 are the outlier and we still don't have that consistent defensive capability to defend the entire ground off turnover nailed down.

Is it a surprise that those losses have coincided with first JJ and then Richards being sidelined? Has it coincided with no real like for like replacement being picked? Has is coincided with Daniel being moved back behind the ball and not being part of the link between forward and cnetre?

[Bulldog Joe]

In the last couple of games Dale has often targeted Daniel with shorter passes and I guess the hope has been that he will get the ball through the traffic. Not sure how successful it's been.

I actually think we have done better this year when we have kick-ins.

We just don't defend the opposition kick-ins despite it being something we cause more than most teams.

[SonofScray]

Is it a surprise that those losses have coincided with first JJ and then Richards being sidelined? Has it coincided with no real like for like replacement being picked? Has is coincided with Daniel being moved back behind the ball and not being part of the link between forward and cnetre?

JJ’s return to form was a real lynch pin.

As soon as he went down, the system broke down too.

[jeemak]

JJ’s return to form was a real lynch pin.

As soon as he went down, the system broke down too.

And it's been exacerbated by Richards's's's injury.

These guys deliver the double whammy of pace and territory when exiting defence, even if accuracy is an issue for both from time to time. When the ball gets handed over it's much deeper and essentially by surprise, opposition forward set ups aren't set up/ ready for the rebound.

Without their run and penetration the movement forward is slower, turnovers are shallower, our defence has less time to adapt. It hasn't helped that our defenders are all of a sudden out of form and are running under the ball and not impacting a contest positively on the third man up in the contest. I've not seen as many ineffectual "spoiling attempts" as I've seen these past couple of weeks for a long time.

And all this comes down to personnel and system being intimately linked. In the old days you could just hit the boundary when the defence was under pressure. You can't do that these days, so you take out a couple of guns who generate run off half back and get penetration with their use, and a lot has to go right for you not to be exposed by that.

Not sure how much coaching can counter it.

[Bullies]

Opposition clubs love it when we do this. They bottle us up and we constantly turn these ones over.
The opposition also like us switching/kicking across goal to Gardner/O'Brien, Crozier and Keath as they know there is a good change it will be butchered and result in a turnover.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

So that sharp an axe, meaning Bevo.
Was thinking the Mc's...Niel n Coomb.
I am faithfull with the club in Bevo.
Not to say Lyon may've been worth sounding out.
Then again I thought the same about Clarkson!
Dodged a bullet there.

[bulldogtragic]

WAs mentioned in this thread if we miss finals Bevo will resign. I wonder at some point when he can’t sleep tonight if this scares the shit out of him. A few weeks ago, it was unthinkable. Now it’s a live possibility. I wonder if the club accepts it if that happens. There’s already two senior jobs vacant.

[1eyedog]

WAs mentioned in this thread if we miss finals Bevo will resign. I wonder at some point when he can’t sleep tonight if this scares the shit out of him. A few weeks ago, it was unthinkable. Now it’s a live possibility. I wonder if the club accepts it if that happens. There’s already two senior jobs vacant.
No idea but there is no way we are going to beat Essendon next week. We are in big trouble.

[Mantis]

No idea but there is no way we are going to beat Essendon next week. We are in big trouble.

An 8 day break for us compared to their 6 day break gives us a fighting chance.

[SonofScray]

All perceived hyperbole aside, it is time for plans to start being made. If C Grant doesn’t have a document mapping out what the scenarios are and the preferred options moving forward are, he’s not the man for the job either.

Top 4 is gone.

We’ll be in a fight for Top 8 now.

Just as likely to fall away a la 2007 as we are to sneak a 6-8th finish with no real shot at going deep.

[Vred]

If he had any dignity he'd step aside at this point, I cannot be the only one who see's the writing on the wall at this point.

[angelopetraglia]

If he had any dignity he'd step aside at this point, I cannot be the only one who see's the writing on the wall at this point.

Do you really think with the list as it is at the moment that anyone else is going to be doing much better? I'm not too sure about that. We have some serious imbalances. No young mids except for Bailey Smith who is having issues. Still lack classy key defenders. Marra and Darcy are still kids. We also lack a small forward with serious pace and crumbing ability and also a classy midfielder who has pace.

There are a lot of obvious gaps in this list.

[GVGjr]

Do you really think with the list as it is at the moment that anyone else is going to be doing much better? I'm not too sure about that. We have some serious imbalances. No young mids except for Bailey Smith who is having issues. Still lack classy key defenders. Marra and Darcy are still kids. We also lack a small forward with serious pace and crumbing ability and also a classy midfielder who has pace.

There are a lot of obvious gaps in this list.

While I agree with most of what you have said this is one of the aspects of list management discussions I find frustrating.
At the end of the season during the trade period or at the draft when anyone suggests we should have cut into the list a bit deeper it's normally shot down as the club has got it right. When we get to the pointy end of the season and we aren't quite measuring up then the list isn't right or imbalanced.

We recruited bookend mature players from other clubs and moved on some under-performing types and lost a B&F winner. This gives me the impression that the club rated the playing list and felt that adding a key defender and a forward coming off his best goal kicking season and who happens to have some decent ruck skills could really help our list along. Now it was working with the Jones addition until his unlucky injury and it hasn't quite worked with Lobb but there is no harm in targeting players the way we did.

Where we continually miss the mark is hanging on to players with a marginal talent level for a year or two too long.

Make no mistake, the coaches rated this list and we recruited just 3 players from the National draft. Sure we added Baker, O'Donnell and Poulter but from the clubs perspective they had a high level of confidence in our playing list at the end of last year.

[Vred]

Do you really think with the list as it is at the moment that anyone else is going to be doing much better? I'm not too sure about that. We have some serious imbalances. No young mids except for Bailey Smith who is having issues. Still lack classy key defenders. Marra and Darcy are still kids. We also lack a small forward with serious pace and crumbing ability and also a classy midfielder who has pace.

There are a lot of obvious gaps in this list.

Every list has holes, problems, medicore players, that's just the nature of list management. We have more mids than just Smith that are young (West, Garcia) but yes it's an area of concern we need to draft/recruit into.

Yes, I do think a breath of fresh air in the coaching ranks would do us wonder. Only need to look at Collingwood and Essendon to see what new coaching ideas can do to mediocre lists.

[GVGjr]

If he had any dignity he'd step aside at this point, I cannot be the only one who see's the writing on the wall at this point.

Look you're not the only one seeing what you see and reading the tea leafs the way you are but I don't think many would agree that Bevo should step aside, well I certainly don't.

We've got some challenges and we aren't meeting expectations. Having the coach stepping aside doesn't change that in fact it probably makes things worse.

[jeemak]

To suggest that if Bevo doesn't step aside he lacks dignity is probably one of the bigger claims I've read on this board for a while.

He's coached the club 200 games, has the highest win percentage, has a flag and a runners up. Let's keep it real.

[angelopetraglia]

Every list has holes, problems, medicore players, that's just the nature of list management. We have more mids than just Smith that are young (West, Garcia) but yes it's an area of concern we need to draft/recruit into.

Yes, I do think a breath of fresh air in the coaching ranks would do us wonder. Only need to look at Collingwood and Essendon to see what new coaching ideas can do to mediocre lists.

West and Garcia have not showed that they have the talent to play through the middle. West can't even dominate at VFL level.

For every McCrae at Collingwood (way too early to say anything about Essendon yet) you have a Teague or Voss at Carlton. Even Lyon at StKilda is now looking very similar to where they were with Ratten.

Though, your point is valid. A new coach may freshen things up. But you could also use the Port example. Look at what Hinkley is doing after going through a similar path to Bevo without the Premiership or a GF appearance. Hinkley is now 230 games into his career at Port without a GF appearance and they look reborn. No coincidence that he has some young and upcoming midfield talent at his disposal with a blend of toughness and experience.

I look at other coaches. Who is going to be a step up from Bevo?

McRae. Maybe. Still unproven in September.
Hinkley. Maybe. Not sold on it.
Fagan. Don't think so. Keep failing in September.
Goodwin. Maybe. But don't think he is a genius. Their list is great.
B Scott. Still unproven. Didn't make a GF in a long stint at North.
Lyon. Defensive mastermind. But has never won when it mattered.
C Scott. Yes. I think he has Bevo covered. Great coach.
Nicks. I don't think so.
Longmire. Possibly. He is a very good coach. He has one flag in 13 years. Three GFs.
Voss. Pass.
Hardwick. Could be a step up from Bevo. Very different approach and game plan. His record is great.
Dew. Sacked. Don't think so.
Longmuir. No.
Mitchell. Not sure yet.
Clarkson. Is he cooked now?
Simpson. Maybe. But what a train wreck the Eagles are at the moment.

So it ain't as easy as lets throw Bevo out and all our prayers will be answered. Finding good coaches is hard.

[josie]

Thought provoking post Angelo.

Presuming Hardwick be interested I’d trust him to make tough calls on list and in demanding very good assistants.

I think this year is a write off. I’d also say one of Bevo’s strengths is his loyalty but it’s also his weakness too and has contributed to the club not cutting the list deep enough for pretty much his whole tenure.

Would be interested to see who woofers would vote for in a coaching poll.

I think Buckley would be a good option if Bevo walks and Hardwick decides to coach GC.

[whythelongface]

Thought provoking post Angelo.

Presuming Hardwick be interested I’d trust him to make tough calls on list and in demanding very good assistants.

I think this year is a write off. I’d also say one of Bevo’s strengths is his loyalty but it’s also his weakness too and has contributed to the club not cutting the list deep enough for pretty much his whole tenure.

Would be interested to see who woofers would vote for in a coaching poll.

I think Buckley would be a good option if Bevo walks and Hardwick decides to coach GC.

No thanks to Buckley. No doubt he is a pretty good coach but there is no way he is a better option at Bevo. Don’t think his HR skills are that great. He is probably best at being an analyst and leaving the coaching gig to others.

[Mantis]

West and Garcia have not showed that they have the talent to play through the middle. West can't even dominate at VFL level.


See this type of comment doesn't wash with me.

When both players are in the VFL team they play as midfielders first and forwards as an afterthought, but when in the senior team they can't sniff a spot in the midfield rotation because we go with the same players all the time.

Our 3 main midfielders in Libba, Treloar and Bont all win lots of possessions and clearances, but lots are dirty touches and dirty clearances (hack kicks and handballs) which don’t turn into scores and quite often leads to the opposition scoring because our forwards, bar Naughts don't defend and our 3 mids don't defend. Bont tackles extremely well in close, as does Libba, but their defensive transition work is crap.. and maybe you can cover one of them not defending, but when all 3 do it, well that can't be covered and leaves our middling defensive group exposed to clean ball which they can't handle, especially when Jones who covered over the gaps early doors is missing.

It's time to change up the mix.

[macca]

Bucks might be a good assistant . DIIF him and Bevo did work together during the Pies last premiership?

I agree with the above points on keeping Marginal players for too long. Port ,Collingwod , Hawks and Geelong seem to cut players with poor kicking skills and give them a time limit on their list.

[angelopetraglia]

Bucks might be a good assistant . DIIF him and Bevo did work together during the Pies last premiership?

I agree with the above points on keeping Marginal players for too long. Port ,Collingwod , Hawks and Geelong seem to cut players with poor kicking skills and give them a time limit on their list.

Bucks has an ego that would not allow him to be an assistant.

[azabob]

When the senior job does become available no way, no shape, no form should we take a coach with previous experience. It does not work!

The game plan needs a refresh to suit our list.

Due to our lack of skills our game plan is slow, is boring and is extremely safe. This invites pressure and we a very susceptible to turn overs, which then allows teams to quickly sling shot from one end of the ground to the other.

If Bevo can show he wants to change his game plan and willing to move a star or two on we should back him in.

[bulldogtragic]

When the senior job does become available no way, no shape, no form should we take a coach with previous experience. It does not work!

The game plan needs a refresh to suit our list.

Due to our lack of skills our game plan is slow, is boring and is extremely safe. This invites pressure and we a very susceptible to turn overs, which then allows teams to quickly sling shot from one end of the ground to the other.

If Bevo can show he wants to change his game plan and willing to move a star or two on we should back him in.

Master People Manager David Brent sums this up: “a good idea, is a good idea forever”

[SonofScray]

When the senior job does become available no way, no shape, no form should we take a coach with previous experience. It does not work!

The game plan needs a refresh to suit our list.

Due to our lack of skills our game plan is slow, is boring and is extremely safe. This invites pressure and we a very susceptible to turn overs, which then allows teams to quickly sling shot from one end of the ground to the other.

If Bevo can show he wants to change his game plan and willing to move a star or two on we should back him in.

I don’t think we should back Bevo in. The guy is bereft of ideas and is squandering this iteration of the playing group’s talent.

The game plan has catastrophic flaws, for a so called master mind emotionally, he’s putting out a team that plays with no joy in their footy, it’s all rote repetitious, laborious footy where we never learn anything new.

He’s finished and has been for ages. The axe has been sharp for a while now and it’s just a fact that no one’s been brave enough to pick it up.

[GVGjr]

Bucks has an ego that would not allow him to be an assistant.

You're probably right and there would be plenty of coaches that would never slide back to an assistants role but Buckley also has plenty of media opportunities that would pay well with zero stress.

[bulldogtragic]

See this type of comment doesn?t wash with me.

When both players are in the VFL team they play as midfielders first and forwards as an afterthought, but when in the senior team they can?t sniff a spot in the midfield rotation because we go with the same players all the time.

Our 3 main midfielders in Libba, Treloar and Bont all win lots of possessions and clearances, but lots are dirty touches and dirty clearances (hack kicks and handballs) which don’t turn into scores and quite often leads to the opposition scoring because our forwards, bar Naughts don?t defend and our 3 mids don?t defend. Bont tackles extremely well in close, as does Libba, but their defensive transition work is crap.. and maybe you can cover one of them not defending, but when all 3 do it, well that can?t be covered and leaves our middling defensive group exposed to clean ball which they can?t handle, especially when Jones who covered over the gaps early doors is missing.

It?s time to change up the mix.

This fast becoming something consuming me, thinking about the chorus of need to recruit mids. But we took Smith top 10, West second round and traded up to get Garcia. Yet none at AFEL are playing midfield. Either with or without Dunkley in the rotations. We get VFL mids like Scott & McComb, then never play them as midfielders. Then we put Daniel in there which pushed them all back even further in the midfield pecking order. Right now unless your name is Bontempelli, Liberatore, Treloar, Macrae or Daniel you have not path to playing midfield in the AFEL at our club. All are getting big numbers and I expect them to be at this level again at least until next year maybe two years. So if there’s another two years of a midfielder playing VFL midfield minutes and then getting promoted to pockets and flanks, then demoted and yo-yo ‘d up and back, then why are we talking about acquiring midfielders when there’s already a multi year and multiplayer backlog and stunted development? It must be very frustrating if you’re an ambitious young midfielder at our club knowing it’s not going to happen here for you unless there’s an injury. Like a permanent understudy in a role you don’t want. So say we go and get some quick, pacey midfielders because they’re lining up to play for us - then what?

[Boots]

Cornes and King on Bevo:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_uAVcVEhxo

Main points:
- We load up forwards too much
- No intercept defender, Jones isn't enough
- Can't stop momentum run-ons
- Strange selections (JOD, Darcy)
- List is too good to waste
- What's Lobb for?
- Preseason mistakes

[Boots]

Fox Footy on the premiership window:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sR90ti_KwU

Main points:
- Do so much at the coalface and win, but can't win the ball back or convert
- Only one option up forward this week and it was Naughton
- Too many easy scores going against us
- appalingly bad defensive structure towards the end of the match ('brain fade')
- Bont is great/a miracle/basically Jesus
- The list and system are good - is this a waste of potential
- The team is inconsistent and hard to figure out
- don't score as much as we should and can't defend with a top four list at minimum

[angelopetraglia]

Main points:
- Do so much at the coalface and win, but can't win the ball back or convert
- Only one option up forward this week and it was Naughton
- Too many easy scores going against us
- appalingly bad defensive structure towards the end of the match ('brain fade')
- Bont is great/a miracle/basically Jesus
- The list and system are good - is this a waste of potential
- The team is inconsistent and hard to figure out
- don't score as much as we should and can't defend with a top four list at minimum

Do we have a top four list?

Kane defends Hinkley. Hinkley has played finals in 5 of 11 years. Zero GFs. He goes after Bevo. Played finals in 6 of 8 years. Two GFs. One Premiership.

Kane. Take a long walk off a short pier. You make everything about you. I'm frankly sick of the American style of sports journalism that Hutchy is driving at both SEN and the show he produces at Channel 9, where it is about promoting some over opinionated celebrity commentator. I thought Australian audiences were too smart to fall for this type of fake and loud storytelling.

Kane, you are also wrong more often than you are right (i.e. Taranto). Surely ones reputation is based on how often they are right not how outrageous your opinions are.

[bornadog]

Cornes and King on Bevo:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_uAVcVEhxo

Main points:
- We load up forwards too much
- No intercept defender, Jones isn't enough
- Can't stop momentum run-ons
- Strange selections (JOD, Darcy)
- List is too good to waste
- What's Lobb for?
- Preseason mistakes

Cornes is actually a big goose - he is constantly bagging Bevo.

[Boots]

Form memory, most of those points are King's.

I actually really like Cornes. Like anyone he has biases, but he backs his points up and he admits when he's wrong. He is also saying nothing but stuff I've read on this forum.

I can't say much for his attitude on Hinkley, and I think his calls for Bevo's head are maybe a tad overstated. To his credit, he often brings it back to Bevo's contract extension rather than outright saying he shoudl be sacked - though in this clip he certainly argues for him to be sacked so you have a point.

[EasternWest]

Cornes is actually a big goose - he is constantly bagging Bevo.

You're right on both points, but that doesn't necessarily make him wrong.

The main points as listed are almost EXACTLY what gets lamented on this board over and over.

[bornadog]

You're right on both points, but that doesn't necessarily make him wrong.

The main points as listed are almost EXACTLY what gets lamented on this board over and over.

He is meant to be a professional and come up with some proper analysis.

and then this shit


how is Bevo still in a job? Got lucky for 4 weeks in 2016 and living off it since. GF 2021 from 5th. Meh. Keeps spinning magnets for no reason. Zero consistency. Players clearly confused. Underachieving

[angelopetraglia]

He is meant to be a professional and come up with some proper analysis.

and then this shit

It is the Hutchy style. He spent time in the USA. He brought that style of journalism over here. Listen to the Howie Games Podcast on him. It is actually quite entertaining. I understand the commercial benefit of what he does, but it doesn't help educated followers of the game. This let's get everyone outraged commentator style. Searching for a headline rather than accuracy or any real analysis.

[Boots]

He is meant to be a professional and come up with some proper analysis.

and then this shit

The problem with Cornes is that he's BOTH quite sensible AND a lunatic.

[EasternWest]

He is meant to be a professional and come up with some proper analysis.

and then this shit

Is he wrong though? It's shit snarky language, but is he wrong?

I know because I'm asking you this question you'll obfuscate or deny, but we both know what the truth is.

[angelopetraglia]

The problem with Cornes is that he's BOTH quite sensible AND a lunatic.

Agree. I try to run a bit. Run a few Marathons. I like following what Kane does in many elements of his life. It is quite inspirational and he does have some valid points. He is much better in a longer form podcast talking about things he knows incredibly well. He can be raw and honest. He also backs up a lot of what he says with action when it comes to running and his actual football when he was playing. He got the absolute most out of his god given ability.

However, it is less Kane and more the style of journalism that I dislike. It is just not for me. He is also clearly biased with his Port Power hat on and that is OK. We know what it is.

The hypocrisy between his opinion on Hinkley and Bevo is hard to swallow when you look at the facts.

[bornadog]

The problem with Cornes is that he's BOTH quite sensible AND a lunatic.

You forgot the word wanker.

[angelopetraglia]

Is he wrong though? It's shit snarky language, but is he wrong?

I know because I'm asking you this question you'll obfuscate or deny, but we both know what the truth is.

What is the truth?

We have largely been an irrelevant club over the journey.

Bevo has made us relevant. We have played finals in 6 of 8 seasons. Two GFs. One Flag. That is the truth.

When Bevo arrived at the club the place was falling apart at the seams. Coach, captain and CEO all walked out the door. Did anyone rate our list? We finished 14th in 2014. We finished 15th in 2015. We finished 15th in 2014. We had not played finals for four years. That is the truth.

Bevo arrived. With a busted club and busted list. We go 14-8 season #1. Just lose a final. We go 15-7 season #2 and win the flag. Did Bevo have the best list in the land? No. I don't think anyone would support that. Is that luck? What type of revisionist history would say that Bevo got lucky. He turned this club 180 degrees out of nowhere. No one saw it coming or predicated it. That is the truth.

What is the truth now? Are the players playing for him? Definitely looks like it to me. Does he make some weird selection decisions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1. Does he try some players in different positions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1 too.

What are the other truths?

[EasternWest]

What is the truth?

We have largely been an irrelevant club over the journey.

Bevo has made us relevant. We have played finals in 6 of 8 seasons. Two GFs. One Flag. Those are the facts.

When Bevo arrived at the club the place was falling apart at the seams. Coach, captain and CEO all walked out the door. Did anyone rate our list? We finished 14th in 2014. We finished 15th in 2015. We finished 16th in 2014. We had not played finals for four years. Those are facts.

Bevo arrived. With a busted club and busted list. We go 14-8 season #1. Just lose a final. We go 15-7 season #2 and win the flag. Did Bevo have the best list in the land? No. I don't think anyone would support that. Those are facts.

What is the truth now? Are the players playing for him? Definitely looks like it to me. Does he make some weird selection decisions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1. Does he try some players in different positions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1 too.

What are the other truths?

and living off it since. GF 2021 from 5th. Meh. Keeps spinning magnets for no reason. Zero consistency. Players clearly confused. Underachieving

These are truths.

I disagree with the "got lucky" in 2016 part because at the pointy end of the season we were clearly the most in form team and deserved to win.

The rest is truth.

I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but I'd almost argue that we're actually not relevant. Opposition clubs know at some point we'll give up a run of goals, so even when we get three, four goals up you never see their panicky side eyes.

[azabob]

He is meant to be a professional and come up with some proper analysis.

and then this shit

Where did Cornes say "Got lucky for 4 weeks in 2016"

[angelopetraglia]

You forgot the word wanker.

I'm not too sure he is a wanker. I think a lot of it is his media "villain" personality that he is happy to play for $$$.

[bornadog]

What is the truth?

We have largely been an irrelevant club over the journey.

Bevo has made us relevant. We have played finals in 6 of 8 seasons. Two GFs. One Flag. Those are the facts.

When Bevo arrived at the club the place was falling apart at the seams. Coach, captain and CEO all walked out the door. Did anyone rate our list? We finished 14th in 2014. We finished 15th in 2015. We finished 16th in 2014. We had not played finals for four years. Those are facts.

Bevo arrived. With a busted club and busted list. We go 14-8 season #1. Just lose a final. We go 15-7 season #2 and win the flag. Did Bevo have the best list in the land? No. I don't think anyone would support that. Those are facts.

What is the truth now? Are the players playing for him? Definitely looks like it to me. Does he make some weird selection decisions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1. Does he try some players in different positions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1 too.

What are the other truths?

The other truth is we have a bunch of mid/small size players that are just not doing enough in the team - Scott, McNeil, Duryea, VDM, West and we have a flaky backline with Keath and Duryea basically cooked, Gardner a honest trier, Richards, Williams and Dale making errors with kicking and a midfield that is just happy to slap the ball on their foot and not look where they are kicking - Treloar, Macrae, Smith and sometimes Bont as well.

[bornadog]

I'm not too sure he is a wanker. I think a lot of it is his media "villain" personality that he is happy to play for $$$.

I don't like MSM, I don't like shock jocks.

[angelopetraglia]

and living off it since. GF 2021 from 5th. Meh. Keeps spinning magnets for no reason. Zero consistency. Players clearly confused. Underachieving

These are truths.

I disagree with the "got lucky" in 2016 part because at the pointy end of the season we were clearly the most in form team and deserved to win.

The rest is truth.

I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but I'd almost argue that we're actually not relevant. Opposition clubs know at some point we'll give up a run of goals, so even when we get three, four goals up you never see their panicky side eyes.

We have been part of the AFL main conversation basically in every single season of the Bevo era. The golden teams of my childhood in the Bombers and Blues have not won a final in the Bevo era. They are irrelevant. We have been very relevant.

[angelopetraglia]

The other truth is we have a bunch of mid/small size players that are just not doing enough in the team - Scott, McNeil, Duryea, West and we have a flaky backline with Keath basically cooked, Gardner a honesty trier, Richards, Williams and Dale making errors with kicking and a midfield that is just happy to slap the ball on their foot and not look where they are kicking - Treloar, Macrae, Smith and sometimes Bont as well.

Agree 100%.

I don't think our list is balanced so therefore it ain't very good. It is not a top four list. Our midfield is one paced. We lack some pace and speed in the middle. Our key forwards are relatively young. Darcy and Marra are babies. Naughton is still young for key a position forward. We don't have any classy tall defenders. We have battlers. The list does have some key strengths. We have A grade half backs and we have the most classy mid in the league and we probably also have the best inside extracting mid in the league. We also have close to the best Ruckman.

[EasternWest]

Is he wrong though? It's shit snarky language, but is he wrong?

I know because I'm asking you this question you'll obfuscate or deny, but we both know what the truth is.

Or I forgot to mention the other thing you do when you can't answer: refuse to respond.

I apologise if you think I'm having a go at you, I'm not. I'm just filthy as I've probably been for ages about our current situation and I'm tired of hearing defense of Beveridge instead of reasonable criticism.

[bornadog]

and living off it since. GF 2021 from 5th. Meh. Keeps spinning magnets for no reason. Zero consistency. Players clearly confused. Underachieving These are truths.

Can't agree, we have made finals every year except 2017, and 18. That is consistent.

A Meh for 2021 GF is bullshit - I bet the other 16 teams would have loved to have been there.

Players confused - where does he get that rubbish from - no proof, just an off the cuff comment.

Underachieving - yeah maybe or over rating our players more like it.


I'm tired of hearing defense of Beveridge instead of reasonable criticism.

Reasonable criticism should happen when you lose games - but not off the cuff BS (not you EW, Cornes or anyone.)

[GVGjr]

Cornes and King on Bevo:



Main points:
- We load up forwards too much
- No intercept defender, Jones isn't enough
- Can't stop momentum run-ons
- Strange selections (JOD, Darcy)
- List is too good to waste
- What's Lobb for?
- Preseason mistakes

A lot of the points they raised have been discussed on here.
- Selection integrity
- Good list that's under-performing
- Inability to slow teams down when they're on a run

Had that mentioned goal kicking accuracy I'd say they had been scanning WOOF

[bornadog]

A lot of the points they raised have been discussed on here.
- Selection integrity
- Good list that's under-performing
- Inability to slow teams down when they're on a run

Had that mentioned goal kicking accuracy I'd say they had been scanning WOOF

Wouldn't be surprised, investigative journalism is all but dead

[angelopetraglia]

Or I forgot to mention the other thing you do when you can't answer: refuse to respond.

I apologise if you think I'm having a go at you, I'm not. I'm just filthy as I've probably been for ages about our current situation and I'm tired of hearing defense of Beveridge instead of reasonable criticism.

I guess these are the important questions.

Is the list that good? Do you believe another coach would be getting more out of the list than Bevo?

My answer is no. I don't think so. It is a obviously a hypothetical question. I think the list is mid table. I think that no other coach would have this list entrenched in the top four.

However, do we need a coaching change? Potentially yes. Every journey must come to an end eventually. Nothing lasts forever. I'm not 100% certain that his journey is up right now, but it can't last forever. Nothing does.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Or I forgot to mention the other thing you do when you can't answer: refuse to respond.

I apologise if you think I'm having a go at you, I'm not. I'm just filthy as I've probably been for ages about our current situation and I'm tired of hearing defense of Beveridge instead of reasonable criticism.

I agree with Cornes. I don't care what his job is and what he's supposed to do. He's not wrong.

Firstly, I think Bevo is/was a great coach who has had his run. I'm not sure if it's just a change of club that he needs or whether the game has passed him.

Secondly, I don't think he inherited a crap list when he came in. We had just done some magnificent drafting in the Bmac years. We had drafted Macrae and Stringer and Bont the next year along with C Smith, Dal, Libba. Combined with some all time veteran leadership in Murph, Boyd, Morris, Wood etc. BMac instilled some important fundamentals in the group but Bevo was fantastic in taking it to the next level with his superb tactical and people skills. 2015 and 16 are still my most favourite seasons as a Bulldog fan.

Thirdly, I'm sick of the got lucky crap we hear about 2016. We were absolutely dominant that year and if it weren't for injuries we'd have been clear top 4, even top 2. We won 15 games which is typically good for top 4.

Fourthly, even though Bevo was at peak genius levels from his debut with us, doesn't mean he's entitled to a free pass or that he will always be a coaching genius. There have been many great coaches who just couldn't keep up with the game.

We've had 3 excellent seasons under Bevo but 6 pretty average ones. Comparing Bevos tenure with our grim history is not the recipe for success. Of course he's our most successful coach, but the bar was pretty low! Should we have achieved more? Maybe. Who knows. Ultimately, I believe this list is capable of more. Theres a certain staleness to the club and it does indeed feel like the players are a little lost out there. Either that or we have recruited the dumbest list in the afl. This forum has been debating the same old topics for nearly 5 years now. Doesn't that indicate something?

[jeemak]

Is he wrong though? It's shit snarky language, but is he wrong?

I know because I'm asking you this question you'll obfuscate or deny, but we both know what the truth is.

He won 15 games in 2016 with a ridiculous injury profile. The comment is bullshit.

[angelopetraglia]

I agree with Cornes. I don't care what his job is and what he's supposed to do. He's not wrong.

Firstly, I think Bevo is/was a great coach who has had his run. I'm not sure if it's just a change of club that he needs or whether the game has passed him.

Secondly, I don't think he inherited a crap list when he came in. We had just done some magnificent drafting in the Bmac years. We had drafted Macrae and Stringer and Bont the next year along with C Smith, Dal, Libba. Combined with some all time veteran leadership in Murph, Boyd, Morris, Wood etc. BMac instilled some important fundamentals in the group but Bevo was fantastic in taking it to the next level with his superb tactical and people skills. 2015 and 16 are still my most favourite seasons as a Bulldog fan.

Thirdly, I'm sick of the got lucky crap we hear about 2016. We were absolutely dominant that year and if it weren't for injuries we'd have been clear top 4, even top 2. We won 15 games which is typically good for top 4.

Fourthly, even though Bevo was at peak genius levels from his debut with us, doesn't mean he's entitled to a free pass or that hebwillcalways be a coaching genius. There have been many great coaches who just couldn't keep up with the game. We've had 3 excellent seasons under Bevo but 6 pretty average ones. Comparing Bevos tenure with our grim history is not the recipe for success. Of course he's our most successful coach, but the bar was pretty low! Should we have achieved more? Maybe. Who knows. Ultimately, I believe this list is capable of more. This forum has been debating the same old topics for nearly 5 years now. Doesn't that indicate something?

All valid points. Appreciate the point of view. Don't agree with all of all of it but lots is hard to dispute.

In regards to the list. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Would have an outsider rated the list at the end of 2014? Nope. Let's look at one player. Easton Wood. No one rated him. He was AA in 2015. Why? 100% Bevo. Bevo made him AA. If you listen to Easton speak about the period and the confidence that Bevo gave him and others ... itwas inspiring to listen too.

So you may say in hindsight. The list was great. But how much of that was due to Bevo getting the most out of players.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

All valid points. Appreciate the point of view. Don't agree with all of all of it but lots is hard to dispute.

In regards to the list. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Would have an outsider rated the list at the end of 2014? Nope. Let's look at one player. Easton Wood. No one rated him. He was AA in 2015. Why? 100% Bevo. Bevo made him AA. If you listen to Easton speak about the period and the confidence that Bevo gave him and others was inspiring to listen too.

So you may say in hindsight. The list was great. But how much of that was due to Bevo getting the most out of players.

Fully agree Bevo played a role. A major role. But these guys clearly have talent.

You could argue the same right now - Richards, Williams, Dale, Smith etc. Should they be achieving another level?

[JanLorMill]

I guess these are the important questions.

Is the list that good? Do you believe another coach would be getting more out of the list than Bevo?

My answer is no. I don't think so. It is a obviously a hypothetical question. I think the list is mid table. I think that no other coach would have this list entrenched in the top four.

So its the lists fault. A list which the coach has had a major part in building.
Probably 4 players out there last night that most other coaches wouldn't play.

King and Cornes have actually talked up the list.

[bornadog]

I brought this up in another thread where MJP talks about issues in the midfield and the whole team. (If you haven't read his post you should - see here (https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?22227-2023-List-Management-Thread/page28) post #416)

Is one of our issues Brendon Lade. He is the midfield coach and we have changed things up in the centre, where Smith and Macrae are no longer rotating through there. Last year we were the number one team for centre clearances. This year we have dropped to 14th? We are still number one for stoppage clearances?

Has Brendon tweaked the mids too much?

[Boots]

I think the interesting feature of the two videos I posted is that collectively they point to something we've also noticed as fans: for whatever reason, the Bulldogs are less than the sum of their parts.

That's super weird, when Bevo's entire reputation - as Angelo pointed out above - is to make teams play like more than the sum of their parts. I always remember the friend of Bevo's who said of 2016 "I think Luke convinced a few of those boys they were quite a bit better than they were" (I think that's from 'A Wink from the Universe', maybe).

In the strangest of ways, it's harsh to judge Bevo by the standards he's set for himself. I think his standards - and ours - might actually be impossibly high. It's possible that no other coach could get our 2016 result out of our list in 2016, or get even this list to a GF in 2021.

Also, our new game plan is really quite conservative, and Bevo doesn't seem to be a conservative coach. He seems to do best when he's really up against the wall, list-wise. He built a premiership forward line out of Tory Dickson and loose change from the midfield. He's made a hell of a defensive back six out of rejects, pocket lint, and Liam Jones. It's possible he's no longer the coach for this list, because paradoxically this list is too good, and he doesn't quite know how to coach it.

Maybe that's too long a bow to draw.

What if the problem is, we're judging him by the standards of 2016, when actually those standards were never fair to begin with. And what if, at the same time, we're judging him too harshly because even if he were a 'normal' coach, any other coach with this list would still struggle to make top four, not because of the list, but because making top four is hard.

[angelopetraglia]

So its the lists fault. A list which the coach has had a major part in building.
Probably 4 players out there last night that most other coaches wouldn't play.

Agree with that too. But how many lists are in perfect condition in the AFL? The majority have serious gaps. We have now been in a finals window for a long period of time. Not too many clubs have been able to stay competitive enough to consistently make and win finals. A few unicorns. Yes.

[JanLorMill]

So now Brendan Lades fault for no selection integrity (eg continually playing JOD), 3/4 tall forward system, a backline that can't defend, no tall interceptors, etc

[azabob]

He won 15 games in 2016 with a ridiculous injury profile. The comment is bullshit.

I've asked twice now, where did Cornes say that comment? I can't find it.

[GVGjr]

He won 15 games in 2016 with a ridiculous injury profile. The comment is bullshit.

We played sensational football in 2015 and if you believe Bevo we could have also made some progress in the finals had some information not been leaked. That said, the list was coming together and based on something Bevo shared with a group of supporters watching a training session the side he inherited was very sound defensively. His job was to get the backline moving forward and I think he achieved that very quickly.

He inherited a good list and he quickly got it it playing some exciting football.

[angelopetraglia]

I brought this up in another thread where MJP talks about issues in the midfield and the whole team. (If you haven't read his post you should - see here (https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?22227-2023-List-Management-Thread/page28) post #416)

Is one of our issues Brendon Lade. He is the midfield coach and we have changed things up in the centre, where Smith and Macrae are no longer rotating through there. Last year we were the number one team for centre clearances. This year we have dropped to 14th? We are still number one for stoppage clearances?

Has Brendon tweaked the mids too much?

It is a valid point. Potentially yes. We also have lost Dunkley. Our inside beast and B&F.

[bornadog]

So now Brendan Lades fault for no selection integrity (eg continually playing JOD), 3/4 tall forward system, a backline that can't defend, no tall interceptors, etc

Oh come on, who said that ? Please read what I wrote. I was talking about the midfield and the changes made there

[bornadog]

We played sensational football in 2015 and if you believe Bevo we could have also made some progress in the finals had some information not been leaked. That said, the list was coming together and based on something Bevo shared with a group of supporters watching a training session the side he inherited was very sound defensively. His job was to get the backline moving forward and I think he achieved that very quickly.

He inherited a good list and he quickly got it it playing some exciting football.

I remember in the Summer of 2014/15 before the season started, a mate went to a BBQ where Bevo also attended. He told my mate he can see us playing finals after three years as the list was inexperienced. His expectations were low when he first came in.

[EasternWest]

Is he wrong though? It's shit snarky language, but is he wrong?

I know because I'm asking you this question you'll obfuscate or deny, but we both know what the truth is.


He won 15 games in 2016 with a ridiculous injury profile. The comment is bullshit.

Dunno why you replied to me - I deliberately omitted that part from the quote I took and made it clear I don't agree with him on that.


I've asked twice now, where did Cornes say that comment? I can't find it.

I didn't watch/listen I just copy/pasted the main points that someone else quoted.

[angelopetraglia]

The other crucial question for me.

Has the club put the right team around Bevo? These things are difficult to judge. But on face value it feels like some of the bigger clubs have got more senior figures, better talent and more support for their football departments.

Has Bevo resisted brining in other people? Has the club not been stronger enough? Have we not invested enough or in the right places?

[JanLorMill]

Oh come on, who said that ? Please read what I wrote. I was talking about the midfield and the changes made there
The problems haven't just appeared this season since Lade got here.

[JanLorMill]

The other crucial question for me.

Has the club put the right team around Bevo? These things are difficult to judge. But on face value it feels like some of the bigger clubs have got more senior figures, better talent and more support for their football departments.

Has Bevo resisted brining in other people? Has the club not been stronger enough? Have we not invested enough or in the right places?
This is blame shifting, Bevo is the man.

[Boots]

The other crucial question for me.

Has the club put the right team around Bevo? These things are difficult to judge. But on face value it feels like some of the bigger clubs have got more senior figures, better talent and more support for their football departments.

Has Bevo resisted brining in other people? Has the club not been stronger enough? Have we not invested enough or in the right places?

Ash Hansen, Gia and Brendan McCartney appear to have been big losses. Beyond that it's really hard to say.

I wonder if it's possible for an assistant coach or fitness guy or psych to train mental toughness, because that feels like what we're missing.

[bornadog]

The one thing I think we can all agree on.

Has the club put the right team around Bevo? These things are difficult to judge. But on face value it feels like some of the bigger clubs have got more senior figures and more support for their football departments.

AP, we lost by two points to last years Grand finalists (they only have a couple injured now) and 12points last week to the top team - so we are not in dire straights.

In my opinion we lack a couple of real game breakers or as you said players/leaders that will take the game on at the right time.

Defense is a real issue for us and it fell into a heap when Jones/JJ/Richards went down in that string of losses. We don't have many that can go back there and have to rely on Keath and Duryea. Duryea last night was appalling, his opponent kicked 4 last week and 4 this week and he dropped a vital chest mark in the last when we were surging forward.

[bornadog]

The problems haven't just appeared this season since Lade got here.

The midfield problems?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

AP, we lost by two points to last years Grand finalists

Last years grand finalists who were sitting 16th on the ladder heading into our clash and had just lost to 13th the week before.

[azabob]

I didn't watch/listen I just copy/pasted the main points that someone else quoted.

I know you didn't...

[EasternWest]

I know you didn't...

Why on earth would I watch and get fully informed when I can go off half cocked and fight anyone that disagrees with me?

[azabob]

Why on earth would I watch and get fully informed when I can go off half cocked and fight anyone that disagrees with me?

Well; you are just following someone elses lead.

[JanLorMill]

The midfield problems?
We had midfield issues before Lade got here. The opposition getting a run of goals started in 21 with Dunkley in it.

[EasternWest]

Well; you are just following someone elses lead.

Do you want to fight me? It seems like you want to fight me? And even if you don't want to fight me, you're now going to.

Let's meet at the Yarraville nets. I'll be the handsome guy answering to the name "jeemak".

PS. jeemak I have a favour to ask you, can you pm me please?

[Bulldog Joe]

This is blame shifting, Bevo is the man.

angelo is questioning if Bevo has resisted having the experienced help we all talk about.

We don't know the answer but it is a valid question and Chris Grant should know that answer.

[angelopetraglia]

angelo is questioning if Bevo has resisted having the experienced help we all talk about.

We don't know the answer but it is a valid question and Chris Grant should know that answer.

Yes. Spot on. One of the many questions.

[chef]

What is the truth?

We have largely been an irrelevant club over the journey.

Bevo has made us relevant. We have played finals in 6 of 8 seasons. Two GFs. One Flag. That is the truth.

When Bevo arrived at the club the place was falling apart at the seams. Coach, captain and CEO all walked out the door. Did anyone rate our list? We finished 14th in 2014. We finished 15th in 2015. We finished 15th in 2014. We had not played finals for four years. That is the truth.

Bevo arrived. With a busted club and busted list. We go 14-8 season #1. Just lose a final. We go 15-7 season #2 and win the flag. Did Bevo have the best list in the land? No. I don't think anyone would support that. Is that luck? What type of revisionist history would say that Bevo got lucky. He turned this club 180 degrees out of nowhere. No one saw it coming or predicated it. That is the truth.

What is the truth now? Are the players playing for him? Definitely looks like it to me. Does he make some weird selection decisions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1. Does he try some players in different positions. Yes. But he has done that since year #1 too.

What are the other truths?

Great post mate.

[DOG GOD]

We have a fwd line which lacks genuine fwds
We have a one paced midfield
We have a #1 ruckman who would be the BEST #2 ruckman in the AFL
We have Keath, Gardner, Bruce, Dureya and Jones as key backman. 4 of them wouldn?t get a game with most of the top 8.

We are in trouble. I can?t see us making the 8. Our draw is not as easy as it probably looks.
And I feel 2024, 2025, 2026 and 2027 will be finals-less too.

[G-Mo77]

The other crucial question for me.

Has the club put the right team around Bevo? These things are difficult to judge. But on face value it feels like some of the bigger clubs have got more senior figures, better talent and more support for their football departments.

Has Bevo resisted brining in other people? Has the club not been stronger enough? Have we not invested enough or in the right places?

Who chose the assistants? Does Bevo have a say in it? Spangher was a disgraceful choice, no experience at all and mates with our coach. Smells of his choice but that is where are Front Office should follow a process, don't think we did with these selections. Lade seems like a decent choice in the off season though. If Bevo stays we need different assistants with new ideas.

[GVGjr]

Cornes is actually a big goose - he is constantly bagging Bevo.

Is he a goose because he bags Bevo or is it an overarching description?

What has he been saying about Bevo?

[G-Mo77]

Is he a goose because he bags Bevo or is it an overarching description?

What has he been saying about Bevo?

He plays the heel and he's been brutal on Bevo but rightfully so in our situation. I read his quote this evening and he's not wrong at all.

[bornadog]

Is he a goose because he bags Bevo or is it an overarching description?

What has he been saying about Bevo?

Just accept that I don't like him

[G-Mo77]

Just accept that I don't like him

I don't think his family like him mate.

[bornadog]

I don't think his family like him mate.

There you go.

[GVGjr]

Just accept that I don't like him

I get that part but more importantly what has he been saying about Bevo?

[kruder]

What we got wrong was only brining in Lade(from an average program) after having so so called serious look at ourselves internally at the end of last year.

The right thing to do was to back Bevo in but with minimal change we all now sit here again ask the same questions. Is it Bevo? Is it his assistants? Is it the fitness staff? the list?Grant?.

They should have cleared the decks with the assistants and the fitness staff and then we would have a much clearer view of where we are at. We are now at round 18 and we still have no answers for those questions. That's the big issue for mine.

[GVGjr]

The other crucial question for me.

Has the club put the right team around Bevo? These things are difficult to judge. But on face value it feels like some of the bigger clubs have got more senior figures, better talent and more support for their football departments.

Has Bevo resisted brining in other people? Has the club not been stronger enough? Have we not invested enough or in the right places?

This is a very complicated question to answer.

The soft cap restrictions really upset us and I guess most other clubs and we lost a couple of good people like Joel Corey and Ben Graham and we had to let Dale Morris go who we had in place as a development coach.
We lost King to the Suns and had Hansen in place as the 2IC but even with a contract in place we also allowed him to move to Carlton. This meant we had to look for a couple of assistants and brought in Webb and Spangher.
When the AFL allowed clubs to put a bit more into the cap we then added Lade as the 2IC but in a confusing reshuffle we lost the experienced and calming influence of our GM of football Chris Maple replacing him with Dave Newton and expanded the role of VFL coach Stewart Edge and I believe Lade picked up some extra work and on top of that even Chris Grant picked up some additional duties from Maple. We also added Stef Martin as a development coach and changed the role of Marc Webb to focus more on our stoppages set-ups and opposition analysis.

With the history I've detailed that hopefully explains a bit of where we are now out of the way I'll try and answer your question of if we have the right support around Bevo.

In my opinion we don't have the right set-up around Bevo but there are some reasons why.

Losing Chris Maple I believe is a big blow to the footy department of the club and splitting the role across a number of others is far from ideal. I heard that Maple had started to challenge some of our coaching and selection decisions last year which created a bit of unrest and at the end of last season he quickly left. There was no transition period like there was when Graham Lowe moved on.
When the soft cap restrictions were implemented we lost coaches when other clubs clubs coaching teams were more prepared to take some pay cuts to keep as much of the group together.
The reduced head count played a part in a very frustrated Bevo last year and with an expanded team we've seen a vastly more relaxed Bevo in the media this year.

Some suggestions to put the right level of support around Bevo would include:

We need a strong GM of Football and be prepared for the coach to be challenged in a positive sense along the way.
We need to challenge our sports science team to see if we can get this team fitter because we don't appear to be as fit as some other sides like Collingwood and Adelaide.
We need some better list management decisions that don't see us maintaining marginally talented players for 2 years too long.

Bevo is a very good coach but he doesn't have an optimal footy department that challenges our performances the way they should.

[FrediKanoute]

We lost by 2 points. Yep it was a game we should have won.

Looking at the season as a whole its been disappointing, though there have ben some bright spots.

Rnd 1 & 2 - we got it tactically wrong - Bevo put his hands up and took responsibility
Rnd 3 to 10 - we win all bar one and beat some decent opposition along the way. We also lose JJ and Ed Richards to injury and are on the verge of the top 4
Rnd 11 to 13 we lose 3 in a row. One to the Suns which was disappointing. One to Geelong our bogey team and then to Port who are 2nd and we lose Jones to injury
Rnd 14 to 16 we beat North and then break the bye hoodoo and beat Freo
Rnd 17 & 18 we lose to the top team, Collingwood by 12 and a resurgent Swans by 2 in a game that could have gone either way

In terms of disappointing and unexpected losses, the Suns and Swans games stand out, but aside form that we have been pretty good, despite the injuries we have had. Don't underplay them, Jones is irreplaceable on our list. JJ off halfback gave us so much forward momentum we were looking at Dale and wondering why his form had dipped.

The challenge now is to win every game from here and challenge for the top 4. We can still do it and I think we have a list that can compete.

[1eyedog]

We lost by 2 points. Yep it was a game we should have won.

Looking at the season as a whole its been disappointing, though there have ben some bright spots.

Rnd 1 & 2 - we got it tactically wrong - Bevo put his hands up and took responsibility
Rnd 3 to 10 - we win all bar one and beat some decent opposition along the way. We also lose JJ and Ed Richards to injury and are on the verge of the top 4
Rnd 11 to 13 we lose 3 in a row. One to the Suns which was disappointing. One to Geelong our bogey team and then to Port who are 2nd and we lose Jones to injury
Rnd 14 to 16 we beat North and then break the bye hoodoo and beat Freo
Rnd 17 & 18 we lose to the top team, Collingwood by 12 and a resurgent Swans by 2 in a game that could have gone either way

In terms of disappointing and unexpected losses, the Suns and Swans games stand out, but aside form that we have been pretty good, despite the injuries we have had. Don't underplay them, Jones is irreplaceable on our list. JJ off halfback gave us so much forward momentum we were looking at Dale and wondering why his form had dipped.

The challenge now is to win every game from here and challenge for the top 4. We can still do it and I think we have a list that can compete.

We are zero chance. 7/1 against top 8 teams. We've never finished top 4 under Bevo, never.

It's just not going to happen.

[macca]

We are zero chance. 7/1 against top 8 teams. We've never finished top 4 under Bevo, never.

It's just not going to happen.

We cant kick straight for goal , fix that please

Now we have no one to replace English , as sweet wont be played and Lobb is part tine ruck

If Maple left due to selection differences then i question the development of our players, and the selection as well.

Our skill level has gone backwards.
We jusr drop our marbles at the end of second quarter and teams get a run on goals.
Our game plan seems exhausting and teams just wait for the turnover in the fwd line to kick a run of goals against us.
Are we not fit enough or is it our game plan is exhausting?

We have too many ordinary footballers who fumble ir cannot kick: mccomb, McNeil and.VDM

Other than Arty , i dont see anyone else with X factor on our list.

The collingwood, geelong and sydney game just shows we are not a top 4 side

[SonofScray]

We are zero chance. 7/1 against top 8 teams. We've never finished top 4 under Bevo, never.

It's just not going to happen.

It’s clear as day. We are not far off, but might as well be a mile off. Two flat tyres a couple of kms from home.

[1eyedog]

We cant kick straight for goal , fix that please

Now we have no one to replace English , as sweet wont be played and Lobb is part tine ruck

If Maple left due to selection differences then i question the development of our players, and the selection as well.

Our skill level has gone backwards.
We jusr drop our marbles at the end of second quarter and teams get a run on goals.
Our game plan seems exhausting and teams just wait for the turnover in the fwd line to kick a run of goals against us.
Are we not fit enough or is it our game plan is exhausting?

We have too many ordinary footballers who fumble ir cannot kick: mccomb, McNeil and.VDM

Other than Arty , i dont see anyone else with X factor on our list.

The collingwood, geelong and sydney game just shows we are not a top 4 side

Preaching to the converted Bro.


It’s clear as day. We are not far off, but might as well be a mile off. Two flat tyres a couple of kms from home.

Melbourne tin-arsing a 1 point win tonight made the task even more monumental. We'll have to do it from 7th or 8th again, if we make the 8 that is.

[FrediKanoute]

We are zero chance. 7/1 against top 8 teams. We've never finished top 4 under Bevo, never.

It's just not going to happen.

With respect though, 2 of those games were the first 2 rounds. Outside of the top 4 this year the rest of the 8 has been fluid - up and down like a yo yo

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We lost by 2 points. Yep it was a game we should have won.

Looking at the season as a whole its been disappointing, though there have ben some bright spots.

Rnd 1 & 2 - we got it tactically wrong - Bevo put his hands up and took responsibility
Rnd 3 to 10 - we win all bar one and beat some decent opposition along the way. We also lose JJ and Ed Richards to injury and are on the verge of the top 4
Rnd 11 to 13 we lose 3 in a row. One to the Suns which was disappointing. One to Geelong our bogey team and then to Port who are 2nd and we lose Jones to injury
Rnd 14 to 16 we beat North and then break the bye hoodoo and beat Freo
Rnd 17 & 18 we lose to the top team, Collingwood by 12 and a resurgent Swans by 2 in a game that could have gone either way

In terms of disappointing and unexpected losses, the Suns and Swans games stand out, but aside form that we have been pretty good, despite the injuries we have had. Don't underplay them, Jones is irreplaceable on our list. JJ off halfback gave us so much forward momentum we were looking at Dale and wondering why his form had dipped.

The challenge now is to win every game from here and challenge for the top 4. We can still do it and I think we have a list that can compete.
While I don't disagree, do you think its less than ideal that one of these players was a 30yo recruit who hadn't played afl for 2 yrs and the other wasn't even playing in his best position at the start of the season?

[FrediKanoute]

While I don't disagree, do you think its less than ideal that one of these players was a 30yo recruit who hadn't played afl for 2 yrs and the other wasn't even playing in his best position at the start of the season?

Re Jones - yeah a 30 year old very experienced player who made an immediate impact on our back half structure something we had tried to address with Keath, Gardner and a host prior to that.

Re JJ - beyond me why the coach decided for 3 years he wasn't a half back and could be better deployed forward. Smacked of the very short lived move of Wood forward.

Regardless of what they were doing in previous years, this year they were a big part of our surge through that round 3 to 10 period . Losing them, Treloar for a few, Ed Richards for a few as well basically killed the momentum for the season and meant we had to play more of McNeil, VdM, Hannan, Baker, Poulter etc. Our injury list hasn't been overly long, but it has had some key players on it.

Where we are now is back with the pack, but we are a better side than our ladder position suggests. Ed's back. JJ and Jones in a month. We shape up as a much much better side. Agree top 4 is likely gone (2 games and % out) and we are in a sh*t fight for the last remaining 4 spots in the 8. Win games is the solution.

[FrediKanoute]

Preaching to the converted Bro.



Melbourne tin-arsing a 1 point win tonight made the task even more monumental. We'll have to do it from 7th or 8th again, if we make the 8 that is.

If any team should be worried its Melbourne. They are hanging on to 4th spot by their Demon claws. they aren't playing good football and I thnk are vulnerable.

[1eyedog]

If any team should be worried its Melbourne. They are hanging on to 4th spot by their Demon claws. they aren't playing good football and I thnk are vulnerable.

At least they're hanging on and are a game clear. We've lost our grip on that cliff on at least two occasions this season and currently look like a dropped lasagne at the base of it.

Just so sick of wasting opportunities.

[Boots]

It?s clear as day. We are not far off, but might as well be a mile off. Two flat tyres a couple of kms from home.

This is how fast you can drive with a flat if you really put your mind to it


https://youtube.com/shorts/71CF9GxUjmQ?feature=share

[The Bulldogs Bite]

At least they're hanging on and are a game clear. We've lost our grip on that cliff on at least two occasions this season and currently look like a dropped lasagne at the base of it.

Just so sick of wasting opportunities.

Yep.

We lose games when we play well let alone when we don't.

We just aren't very good. I'm more interested in what we decide to do next with respect to the list first, coaching group second.

[DOG GOD]

Yep.

We lose games when we play well let alone when we don't.

We just aren't very good. I'm more interested in what we decide to do next with respect to the list first, coaching group second.

Do we have the balls as a club to make hard decisions? I don’t think we do.
I can see a very similar outcome in 2024.
I don’t think we will cut the list as we should.
I don’t think we will see much change to the coaching box.

And the big issue I can see coming is that we are truly going to bomb out the time Tassie hits the scene.
The midfield is a huge concern once Bont and Libba decline. Macrae is already in decline so I don’t include him. We are in desperate need of a Sam Walsh, Serong type to propel us.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Do you think that Patty Dowell from the Blues is what we need. He is a ball magnet but can’t crack a game at the Blues. At list on our list he would get a game ahead of McNeil, Poulter, Hannan, VDM etc

I would also like to see West as Libbas understudy and have game time take instruction from him.

[GVGjr]

Do you think that Patty Dowell from the Blues is what we need. He is a ball magnet but can’t crack a game at the Blues. At list on our list he would get a game ahead of McNeil, Poulter, Hannan, VDM etc

I would also like to see West as Libbas understudy and have game time take instruction from him.

Might be worth some consideration but he is probably not a difference maker.

[bulldogtragic]

Do you think that Patty Dowell from the Blues is what we need. He is a ball magnet but can’t crack a game at the Blues. At list on our list he would get a game ahead of McNeil, Poulter, Hannan, VDM etc

I would also like to see West as Libbas understudy and have game time take instruction from him.

A midfielder who won’t play midfield at our club. We have enough of them. I think it’s time for fresh blood.

[angelopetraglia]

From @FootscrayFC1953

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1Dbge5aIAAYfFN?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Bumper Bulldogs]

From @FootscrayFC1953

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1Dbge5aIAAYfFN?format=jpg&name=900x900

When you look at those numbers it’s a pretty good read. I for one am glad to be a bulldog supporter

[JanLorMill]

We don?t need a chart to tell us Bevo is our best coach ever. If we did a graph for the direction we are going. It will be stationary or backwards.

[SonofScray]

From @FootscrayFC1953

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1Dbge5aIAAYfFN?format=jpg&name=900x900

He’s performed very well during his tenure, and is clearly our best ever coach, to this point in time.

15-16, fresh voice, full of beans. Combative and plucky, consistent message and a clear brand of footy. PG and Bevo a powerhouse combo.

17-18, bitterly disappointing. Looked and sounded lethargic, frustrated, presented poorly at times. Weird preseason address.

19-20 OK, seemed to get the puzzle in place for that run into finals, used his personnel wisely. Then stuffed around with the structure and we got smashed in a final v GWS in an absolutely embarrassing effort. Following season he held the fort really well in exceptional circumstances. Feel like these two seasons, we got his absolute best as a leader and some of the worst of his bat shit crazy magnet spinning.

21-23 A capable squad with star power has one hand on the premiership and it is ripped away. Leaving the team a mental wreck and the coach meandering, bereft of ideas. There’s a clear blue print to beat us and teams are able to execute it too often, too easily. He’s been frustrated, distracted, unhappy at times. In a better place this year but not getting results.

We can’t keep all keep crawling up his butt to try and bask in the last little bits of premiership sunshine emanating from there.

[angelopetraglia]

Kane Cornes. Just playing the heel. He is like a WWE character at this point. https://twitter.com/FootyonNine/status/1680373111890296833?s=20

[JanLorMill]

Kane Cornes. Just playing the heel. He is like a WWE character at this point. https://twitter.com/FootyonNine/status/1680373111890296833?s=20
Problem is he is right here and the latest re bulldogs

[SonofScray]

Problem is he is right here and the latest re bulldogs

Yep. Classic broken clock is correct at least twice a day.

[anfo27]

I've said it before but Bevo benefitted off of BMacs rigid defence first development. Could come straight in & release the shackles & the players just played. We were tough & were never out of a contest. As the years have gone by its seems to me that Bevo is an ordinary defensive minded coach. We've gotten worse defensively as the years go by & also softer. We had alot of tough hombre's in our premiership side.
We either get the right coaches to complement Bevos weaknesses or he needs to go. Any list that has Bontempelli in it is a top4 list & its is being wasted. I would love the club do what the cats did. They saw Selwood & did their best every year to give him a shot at another flag. It has to be all in as long as the Bont is there. If Bont retires with one flag to his name, it would be a fail.

[azabob]

Going to put some caveats here because the topic is unpleasant and previous iterations of the discussion across different platforms I?ve felt haven?t always been respectful between posters.

My question, I suppose is, at what point are you going to step across from backing, to sacking Bevo? If at all?

SoS do you want an experienced coach or a rookie coach to take over?

[angelopetraglia]

I've said it before but Bevo benefitted off of BMacs rigid defence first development. Could come straight in & release the shackles & the players just played. We were tough & were never out of a contest. As the years have gone by its seems to me that Bevo is an ordinary defensive minded coach. We've gotten worse defensively as the years go by & also softer. We had alot of tough hombre's in our premiership side.
We either get the right coaches to complement Bevos weaknesses or he needs to go. Any list that has Bontempelli in it is a top4 list & its is being wasted. I would love the club do what the cats did. They saw Selwood & did their best every year to give him a shot at another flag. It has to be all in as long as the Bont is there. If Bont retires with one flag to his name, it would be a fail.

Many good points here.

But I can't agree with any side with Bont is a top four side. The AFL isn't the NBA.

[1eyedog]

Did Judd even play finals at Carlton?

[azabob]

Did Judd even play finals at Carlton?

He played a few finals, why are you asking that?

[jeemak]

Did Judd even play finals at Carlton?

He played in their last finals win over Richmond in 2013.

[jeemak]

He played a few finals, why are you asking that?

Yeah, why are you asking that 1ED? Huh?

[1eyedog]

He played a few finals, why are you asking that?

I'm just trying to gauge whether having a top 3 player in the comp who is also a great captain makes it more likely you play finals.

Paddy Cripps is a better example I think where you've got an inspirational leader and great player but you're still starved of team success.

[D Mitchell]

I've said it before but Bevo benefitted off of BMacs rigid defence first development. Could come straight in & release the shackles & the players just played. We were tough & were never out of a contest. As the years have gone by its seems to me that Bevo is an ordinary defensive minded coach. We've gotten worse defensively as the years go by & also softer. We had alot of tough hombre's in our premiership side.
We either get the right coaches to complement Bevos weaknesses or he needs to go. Any list that has Bontempelli in it is a top4 list & its is being wasted. I would love the club do what the cats did. They saw Selwood & did their best every year to give him a shot at another flag. It has to be all in as long as the Bont is there. If Bont retires with one flag to his name, it would be a fail.

Adding to bolded bits, McCartney's mantra was that players must be able to win their own ball. After the Grand Final, a mate of mine who has had extensive coaching experience of senior teams in the country made that observation about the team, they could all win their own ball. Now players give up after one effort, fail to chase their opponent who has won the ball, not close in quickly on the opposition player looking to give it off or run around waving their arms then glaring at the team mate who did win the ball. That value has disappeared.

[Grantysghost]

He played in their last finals win over Richmond in 2013.

The year they didn't make the finals and took Essendon's spot.
Richmond were such a laughing stock back then, beaten in the finals by ninth!

[bornadog]

I've said it before but Bevo benefitted off of BMacs rigid defence first development. Could come straight in & release the shackles & the players just played. We were tough & were never out of a contest.

I have to totally disagree with your assessment. BMACC may have had the matra the we must win cont poss, but under Rocket we were the top 3 team in contested possession in all of the years he coached us. BMACC taught nothing new.
Under BMACC we were lucky to kick a goal - one of the worst coaches I have seen at the club, along with Rhodes, and Royce Hart.

[Mofra]

I'm just trying to gauge whether having a top 3 player in the comp who is also a great captain makes it more likely you play finals.

Paddy Cripps is a better example I think where you've got an inspirational leader and great player but you're still starved of team success.
Bobby Skilton never played a final did he?

Team > individual. The best team defence we're ever rolled out onto the paddock was made up rookies & cast-offs (2016 finals side).

I worry we're falling for the 'saviour' fallacy.
Bont will save us.
Naughts will save us.
A new coach will save us.

We went through this with Grant. Then Murph. It didn't work.

It's far more likely that 22 contributions on the paddock will improve us more than a superhuman effort from one individual.

[bornadog]

Bobby Skilton never played a final did he?

Team > individual. The best team defence we're ever rolled out onto the paddock was made up rookies & cast-offs (2016 finals side).

I worry we're falling for the 'saviour' fallacy.
Bont will save us.
Naughts will save us.
A new coach will save us.

We went through this with Grant. Then Murph. It didn't work.

It's far more likely that 22 contributions on the paddock will improve us more than a superhuman effort from one individual.

This is where the coach comes in. He has to get the players to play as a team. That is why Collingwood is so good, it is a team effort.

Our issue is errors, errors, decision making that costs us games.

[Bulldog Joe]

This is where the coach comes in. He has to get the players to play as a team. That is why Collingwood is so good, it is a team effort.

Our issue is errors, errors, decision making that costs us games.

So you are saying it is the coach who makes Collingwood play as a team.

Why then is Bevo not responsible for what isn't happening for us

[bornadog]

So you are saying it is the coach who makes Collingwood play as a team.

Why then is Bevo not responsible for what isn't happening for us

Of course Bevo has responsibility. He has to make it happen.

9 Years - Finals in 2015, 16, 19,20, 21, 22 and hopefully 23, including 2 GF, Premiership

[hujsh]

Of course Bevo has responsibility. He has to make it happen.

9 Years - Finals in 2015, 16, 19,20, 21, 22 and hopefully 23, including 2 GF, Premiership

Finals are great BAD. But there's being in finals and having any sort of shot and there's being in finals to make up the numbers.

3 of those years had us just squeaking in and being immediately exposed as unworthy of being there.

To me they aren't accomplishments to hang your hat on.

[bulldogtragic]

Of course Bevo has responsibility. He has to make it happen.

9 Years - Finals in 2015, 16, 19,20, 21, 22 and hopefully 23, including 2 GF, Premiership

2015 - lost EF
2019 - lost EF (disgracefully)
2020 - lost EF
2022 - lost EF (disgracefully)
2023 - let’s see if we make them

Making finals in given years shouldn’t be the metric. Wining them should be. We’ve only won finals in 16 & 21.

[bornadog]

Finals are great BAD. But there's being in finals and having any sort of shot and there's being in finals to make up the numbers.

3 of those years had us just squeaking in and being immediately exposed as unworthy of being there.

To me they aren't accomplishments to hang your hat on.


2015 - lost EF
2019 - lost EF (disgracefully)
2020 - lost EF
2022 - lost EF (disgracefully)
2023 - let’s see if we make them

Making finals in given years shouldn’t be the metric. Wining them should be. We’ve only won finals in 16 & 21.

I bet the other 10 clubs that didn't make it would love to be in our position.

You have to be good enough to make the final 8

[Bulldog Joe]

I bet the other 10 clubs that didn't make it would love to be in our position.

You have to be good enough to make the final 8

You may consider that satisfactory.

I just don't.

[bulldogtragic]

I bet the other 10 clubs that didn't make it would love to be in our position.

You have to be good enough to make the final 8

I don’t see that as good. Making up the numbers just doesn’t seem to me to represent success at all.

Pretty sure 17 clubs were happy not to be us the last two finals we’ve played.

[bornadog]

You may consider that satisfactory.

I just don't.

Never satisfactory unless you win a premiership, but as you know they are hard to win

[G-Mo77]

I have to totally disagree with your assessment. BMACC may have had the matra the we must win cont poss, but under Rocket we were the top 3 team in contested possession in all of the years he coached us. BMACC taught nothing new.
Under BMACC we were lucky to kick a goal - one of the worst coaches I have seen at the club, along with Rhodes, and Royce Hart.

Without BMac there is no Premiership in 2016, without Bevo there is no Premiership either. We wouldn't have had success without the other. Those horrible seasons under him developed a pretty strong willed group of players. It was hard to watch as a supporter but the pillars were starting to be built in that time.

[Rocket Science]

Almost half the freakin league qualifies for finals each and every year, the bar's not that high.

Citing finals berths as testimony things are going well isn't the boast it sounds when you promptly embarrass yourselves in them.

It's more like evidence you don't belong.

[Mofra]

Almost half the freakin league qualifies for finals each and every year, the bar's not that high.

Citing finals berths as testimony things are going well isn't the boast it sounds when you promptly embarrass yourselves in them.

It's more like evidence you don't belong.
What about a single coach winning 1/3rd of a team's finals in it's history?

Since 1925: 21 finals wins
Bevo: 7 finals wins

TBH I'd rather a Grand Final appearance and a Flag than having the finals wins spread out over a few years.

[bulldogtragic]

Almost half the freakin league qualifies for finals each and every year, the bar's not that high.

Citing finals berths as testimony things are going well isn't the boast it sounds when you promptly embarrass yourselves in them.

It's more like evidence you don't belong.

Bang! :D

We should be citing regular finals wins and top 4 finishes as a metric of success beyond flags:

Since 2010 (14 years this year):

Last top 4: 1 (2010)
Years when Finals won: 3* (2010, 2016, 2021)

So no top 4 finish in 14 years and a finals win/s just every 5 years or so.

[bornadog]

Almost half the freakin league qualifies for finals each and every year, the bar's not that high.

You still have to make them. Rather play than not.


Citing finals berths as testimony things are going well isn't the boast it sounds when you promptly embarrass yourselves in them. It's more like evidence you don't belong.

Obviously directed at me? and no I never said things are going well, but they are not as bad as some make out on this board.


What about a single coach winning 1/3rd of a team's finals in it's history?

Since 1925: 21 finals wins
Bevo: 7 finals wins

TBH I'd rather a Grand Final appearance and a Flag than having the finals wins spread out over a few years.

But Bevo can't coach

[Rocket Science]

What about a single coach winning 1/3rd of a team's finals in it's history?

If we're being brutally honest with ourselves that's as much an indictment on our past as a pat on the back for the current coach, who's done very good things it's true ... but is it enough?

[bulldogtragic]

What about a single coach winning 1/3rd of a team's finals in it's history?

Since 1925: 21 finals wins
Bevo: 7 finals wins

TBH I'd rather a Grand Final appearance and a Flag than having the finals wins spread out over a few years.

Why is it an either/or?

That stat speaks to more of our lack of success than anything else.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Why is it an either/or?

That stat speaks to more of our lack of success than anything else.

It also highlights our somewhat failings in our other seasons under bevo. A premiership and grand final appearance is great. So are the finals appearances. But shouldn't we have done more in those appearances than some awful elimination final losses? Winning a flag and nearly getting another means we clearly had the talent. Why haven't we been able to back it up?

[bornadog]

Why is it an either/or?

That stat speaks to more of our lack of success than anything else.

Yes we haven't had success like the last 9 years -

[bulldogtragic]

It also highlights our somewhat failings in our other seasons under bevo. A premiership and grand final appearance is great. So are the finals appearances. But shouldn't we have done more in those appearances than some awful elimination final losses? Winning a flag and nearly getting another means we clearly had the talent. Why haven't we been able to back it up?

Yep. Back to back prelims with Plough. Three prelims in a row with Rocket. How we haven’t gone deep into finals for several years in a row with the same coach and similar playing list is confounding.

[bulldogtragic]

Yes we haven't had success like the last 9 years -

7 finals wins in 12 years with no top 4...

A flag followed up by a loss to Melbourne in a GF a handful of years later. Pretty sure we’ve done that before… :D

It’s not all bad clearly. But it should’ve been a shitload better than what we’ve got to date.

[D Mitchell]

I have to totally disagree with your assessment. BMACC may have had the matra the we must win cont poss, but under Rocket we were the top 3 team in contested possession in all of the years he coached us. BMACC taught nothing new.
Under BMACC we were lucky to kick a goal - one of the worst coaches I have seen at the club, along with Rhodes, and Royce Hart.

Bolded bit. 2009 2nd in contested possessions finished 4th, 2010 2nd finished 4th, 2011 8th finished 10th. McCartney arrived November 2011. For the 2012 season, 27 players on the list were under the age of 21 years, 12 had played no games at all, a further 7 had played fewer than 10 and another 8 between 10 and 20 so 27 fewer than 20 games. McCartney made his philosophy public, contested ball, winning contests and "cracking in". New or rehashed, stats for the previous 3 years vindicated him. He should be given credit for that.

https://afltables.com/afl/seas/ladders/laddersyby.html#2010
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2010s.html

[bornadog]

Bolded bit. 2009 2nd in contested possessions finished 4th, 2010 2nd finished 4th, 2011 8th finished 10th. McCartney arrived November 2011. For the 2012 season, 27 players on the list were under the age of 21 years, 12 had played no games at all, a further 7 had played fewer than 10 and another 8 between 10 and 20 so 27 fewer than 20 games. McCartney made his philosophy public, contested ball, winning contests and "cracking in". New or rehashed, stats for the previous 3 years vindicated him. He should be given credit for that.

https://afltables.com/afl/seas/ladders/laddersyby.html#2010
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/2010s.html

As i said he was one of the worst coaches we have ever had.

[bornadog]

Yep. Back to back prelims with Plough. Three prelims in a row with Rocket. How we haven’t gone deep into finals for several years in a row with the same coach and similar playing list is confounding.


7 finals wins in 12 years with no top 4...

A flag followed up by a loss to Melbourne in a GF a handful of years later. Pretty sure we’ve done that before… :D

It’s not all bad clearly. But it should’ve been a shitload better than what we’ve got to date.

I will argue we had more talented players under Terry and Rocket than under Bevo but we didn't make one GF

[Bulldog Joe]

I will argue we had more talented players under Terry and Rocket than under Bevo but we didn't make one GF

Wallace took us to a prelim from being the worst surviving team the previous year.

I would argue that Bevo has had more high end talent available.

[D Mitchell]

As i said he was one of the worst coaches we have ever had.
Gee, that was quick, BAD. I'm not commenting on his coaching ability, just that I believe that he can take and is entitled to be given credit for his part in preparing the team.

[D Mitchell]

Wallace took us to a prelim from being the worst surviving team the previous year.

The 1996 team was far better than 14th. The captain and assistant coach complaining to the Board about the Coach who had lost the players. Those 1997-1999 and 2008-2010 teams were exceptional.

[Mofra]

Why is it an either/or?

That stat speaks to more of our lack of success than anything else.
Or... we don't recognize a decent coach when we get one?

Maybe Bevo has overstayed his tenure and there are issues with communication, but I don't think he's suddenly lost tactical nous.

[anfo27]

Many good points here.

But I can't agree with any side with Bont is a top four side. The AFL isn't the NBA.

Bont isn't just the best player on our list. He should be seen by the time he is done the best bulldog of all. If we don't have a top 4 list then thats an indictment on the people in charge of putting the list together. How have we not looked at Bont & figure out how do we build a list around him. We've bloody had long enough to figure that out.

[anfo27]

I have to totally disagree with your assessment. BMACC may have had the matra the we must win cont poss, but under Rocket we were the top 3 team in contested possession in all of the years he coached us. BMACC taught nothing new.
Under BMACC we were lucky to kick a goal - one of the worst coaches I have seen at the club, along with Rhodes, and Royce Hart.

Happy for anyone to disagree. Not many people ever agree with me about anything so you're not on your own. I can't agree with you either cause the stats might say that but to my eye we were never good enough in contested ball to be a serious contender under Eade. Our 2016 side would beat Rockets side every day of the week & twice on Sunday.
Again I'm on my own with this but I was a fan of BMac. Everyone could see the losses & lack of goals. All I saw was a contested style of game that once we did make finals we had the contested ball game to win them. I was actually gutted when BMac left but him leaving clearly the list was ready to add the offensive string to their bow.

[bulldogtragic]

Or... we don't recognize a decent coach when we get one?

Maybe Bevo has overstayed his tenure and there are issues with communication, but I don't think he's suddenly lost tactical nous.

The discussion was simply making finals not being the be all, especially when we lose most years in the first final. Bevo hasn’t overstayed, he’s got two more years. Like VDM has, isn’t that right easternwest?

[bornadog]

Happy for anyone to disagree. Not many people ever agree with me about anything so you're not on your own. I can't agree with you either cause the stats might say that but to my eye we were never good enough in contested ball to be a serious contender under Eade. Our 2016 side would beat Rockets side every day of the week & twice on Sunday.
Again I'm on my own with this but I was a fan of BMac. Everyone could see the losses & lack of goals. All I saw was a contested style of game that once we did make finals we had the contested ball game to win them. I was actually gutted when BMac left but him leaving clearly the list was ready to add the offensive string to their bow.

Anfo, I enjoy your different opinion, so no problems from me at all.

I think under Eade, we lacked a tall target to compliment the 2008 and 2009 teams. Those teams were better than the 2010 team, especially 2009. We weree only in the prelim in 2010 beacuse Hall kicked 80 odd goals that year. If only we had him the year before

However, take a look at the 2009 prelim team with names like Griffen, Boyd, Cooney, Hargrave, Cross, Higgins, Harbrow, Morris, Lake, Johnson, Gilbee, Gia, Hahn, Murphy, Aker, Ward, Minson, Eagleton, Picken and Scott Welsh and Tim Callan

That is the team that should have won the Premiership in 2009

[anfo27]

Anfo, I enjoy your different opinion, so no problems from me at all.

I think under Eade, we lacked a tall target to compliment the 2008 and 2009 teams. Those teams were better than the 2010 team, especially 2009. We weree only in the prelim in 2010 beacuse Hall kicked 80 odd goals that year. If only we had him the year before

However, take a look at the 2009 prelim team with names like Griffen, Boyd, Cooney, Hargrave, Cross, Higgins, Harbrow, Morris, Lake, Johnson, Gilbee, Gia, Hahn, Murphy, Aker, Ward, Minson, Eagleton, Picken and Scott Welsh and Tim Callan

That is the team that should have won the Premiership in 2009

You look at the names you listed & its hard to disagree. Bloody good names there! Comparing the teams I just think the 2015 & 2016 team were the hardest team I've ever seen & thats the difference. Clay Smith is the toughest player ever, would run through a brick wall for his team mates. Would love to relive 2016.

[bornadog]

You look at the names you listed & its hard to disagree. Bloody good names there! Comparing the teams I just think the 2015 & 2016 team were the hardest team I've ever seen & thats the difference. Clay Smith is the toughest player ever, would run through a brick wall for his team mates. Would love to relive 2016.

There was something about those teams in 15/16. The tackling and never giving up was amazing. We got beaten by Adelaide only due to inexperience.

[bulldogtragic]

There was something about those teams in 15/16. The tackling and never giving up was amazing. We got beaten by Adelaide only due to inexperience.

If only we could’ve shut down Betts.

[EasternWest]

Clay Smith is the toughest player ever, would run through a brick wall for his team mates.

I still miss Clay Smith.

He was a rare breed. Put the fear of god into opposition players but wasn't dirty. My guy.

Of course, someone else was also harder than a cat's head....

[bulldogtragic]

I still miss Clay Smith.

He was a rare breed. Put the fear of god into opposition players but wasn't dirty. My guy.

Of course, someone else was also harder than a cat's head....

Why do you turn every thread into something about Josh Schache?

[EasternWest]

Why do you turn every thread into something about Josh Schache?

I'm talking about our Lord and saviour Jordon Sweet. He hasn't been recklessly mentioned for at least 8 posts.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm talking about our Lord and saviour Jordon Sweet. He hasn't been recklessly mentioned for at least 8 posts.

We are saving him up for finals. A rope a dope strategy on the competition.

We should have a retro round of these… Hawthorn taking Boumann is going to embarrass this club.

[bornadog]

We are saving him up for finals. A rope a dope strategy on the competition.

We should have a retro round of these… Hawthorn taking Boumann is going to embarrass this club.

Comrade enters the discussion.

BTW, Where is Comrade

[anfo27]

Anfo, I enjoy your different opinion, so no problems from me at all.

I think under Eade, we lacked a tall target to compliment the 2008 and 2009 teams. Those teams were better than the 2010 team, especially 2009. We weree only in the prelim in 2010 beacuse Hall kicked 80 odd goals that year. If only we had him the year before

However, take a look at the 2009 prelim team with names like Griffen, Boyd, Cooney, Hargrave, Cross, Higgins, Harbrow, Morris, Lake, Johnson, Gilbee, Gia, Hahn, Murphy, Aker, Ward, Minson, Eagleton, Picken and Scott Welsh and Tim Callan

That is the team that should have won the Premiership in 2009

I remember going to a sportsmans lunch at West Footscray, would have been the BMAc era I think. Rocket was the headline speaker. He said that we were after Hall the year before we did get him but the swans were asking for too much. I asked Rocket 'what specifically were the swans asking for?'. He said the swans wanted to 1st round picks for him. Steep price but I think we would of been a huge chance to win the flag if we got him earlier. Butterfly effect, we go back & make that trade & see what happens.

[anfo27]

I still miss Clay Smith.

He was a rare breed. Put the fear of god into opposition players but wasn't dirty. My guy.

Of course, someone else was also harder than a cat's head....

I remember the elimination final against the Eagles & an Eagles defender taking a mark inside 50 & Clay just ran in to him to put some physical pressure on him. No other player in the comp would have done that. He nearly knocked himself out with that play but he was making a statement about what we were about. Clay was crazy tough. Would love to shake his hand one day.

[EasternWest]

I remember the elimination final against the Eagles & an Eagles defender taking a mark inside 50 & Clay just ran in to him to put some physical pressure on him. No other player in the comp would have done that. He nearly knocked himself out with that play but he was making a statement about what we were about. Clay was crazy tough. Would love to shake his hand one day.

I wouldn't. He'd crush my hand.

[jeemak]

7 finals wins in 12 years with no top 4...

A flag followed up by a loss to Melbourne in a GF a handful of years later. Pretty sure we?ve done that before? :D

It?s not all bad clearly. But it should?ve been a shitload better than what we?ve got to date.

Oh yes, because of that awesome list that hasn't perpetually had holes at each end of the ground or gone through a rebuild among other things ........good to see we're back here again where we think that irrespective of all of those things we should be making top four and winning every final we play in.

:)

[bulldogtragic]

Oh yes, because of that awesome list that hasn't perpetually had holes at each end of the ground or gone through a rebuild among other things ........good to see we're back here again where we think that irrespective of all of those things we should be making top four and winning every final we play in.

:)

Cmon. We should’ve made top 4 a couple of times (at lest 2021) and win some more finals (2015, 2022 at least). Surely you can suggest that’s not an unreasonable expectation.

[jeemak]

Cmon. We should’ve made top 4 a couple of times (at lest 2021) and win some more finals (2015, 2022 at least). Surely you can suggest that’s not an unreasonable expectation.

Last year was extremely disappointing, not sure about 2015.

Missing top four wasn't great in 2021, though making top four doesn't get you grand finals, just ask Melbourne in 2022 or Brisbane the last few years.

I think people here dreadfully underestimate how difficult it is to firstly make finals, let alone win one - or make top four and actually make a grand final. The competition is even across the teams, it's extremely unbalanced/ biased towards a few (that aren't us) from a fixturing perspective and it takes very little to get beaten on the day.

Just expecting top four, or finals wins just because we apparently have a magnificent midfield doesn't make any sense. Again I go back to the massive structural issues we have had over the journey, some by our own doing, others not and I think on balance or with some swings and roundabouts we've gotten a lot of value out of our club the past eight years with a lot of that value being derived from a sometimes frustrating but excellent coach.

[Sedat]

Last year was extremely disappointing, not sure about 2015.

Missing top four wasn't great in 2021, though making top four doesn't get you grand finals, just ask Melbourne in 2022 or Brisbane the last few years.

I think people here dreadfully underestimate how difficult it is to firstly make finals, let alone win one - or make top four and actually make a grand final. The competition is even across the teams, it's extremely unbalanced/ biased towards a few (that aren't us) from a fixturing perspective and it takes very little to get beaten on the day.

Just expecting top four, or finals wins just because we apparently have a magnificent midfield doesn't make any sense. Again I go back to the massive structural issues we have had over the journey, some by our own doing, others not and I think on balance or with some swings and roundabouts we've gotten a lot of value out of our club the past eight years with a lot of that value being derived from a sometimes frustrating but excellent coach.
Agree with all of that, but senior management at the club has put it on record we are a top 4 team and in contention, and they have been repeating this ever since the 2020 EF loss to St Kilda. If they expect us to make top 4, we should expect it as well (notwithstanding the apparent deficiencies in our list that all us supporter nuffies have seemed to notice).

If we fall short of senior management expectations, there needs to be accountability.

[jeemak]

A bit light on for traffic around here. Figured I'd bump this one to make sure we're all still aligned on whether the coach is responsible for all outcomes on field.

[JanLorMill]

A bit light on for traffic around here. Figured I'd bump this one to make sure we're all still aligned on whether the coach is responsible for all outcomes on field.
Good win last night but it does it change the fact that if we don’t win at least 1 final the season is a failure?

[Mantis]

A bit light on for traffic around here. Figured I'd bump this one to make sure we're all still aligned on whether the coach is responsible for all outcomes on field.

Has it been suggested otherwise?

The coach is responsible for getting the best out of his players, team selection and game style which isn?t where it needs to be.

And bumping this after a win against team we absolutely own is fraught with danger.

[GVGjr]

Good win last night but it does it change the fact that if we don?t win at least 1 final the season is a failure?

Winning a final is what I would regard as a successful year and for me last nights result really doesn't change that thought.

[Bulldog Joe]

There is still a bit to go and beating Essendon was essential but it was only Essendon who we beat most of the time.

We still need to make and win finals.

[hujsh]

Was everyone so confident we'd beat Essendon at 7:45pm on the 21st of July?

[G-Mo77]

Was everyone so confident we'd beat Essendon at 7:45pm on the 21st of July?

I was, picked us by 29 points on FootyTips. I was cursing the wasted pick at quarter time though.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

A bit light on for traffic around here. Figured I'd bump this one to make sure we're all still aligned on whether the coach is responsible for all outcomes on field.

Jee, if we either don't make finals or get knocked out in another EF after the coach and administration declared top 4 the expectation, are you happy?

For me, even winning ONE final isn't good enough for a group that is statistically the second oldest in the league and was specifically geared via recruitment to contend / win a flag. Anything short of a PF is a failure IMO.

[jeemak]

Jee, if we either don't make finals or get knocked out in another EF after the coach and administration declared top 4 the expectation, are you happy?

For me, even winning ONE final isn't good enough for a group that is statistically the second oldest in the league and was specifically geared via recruitment to contend / win a flag. Anything short of a PF is a failure IMO.

Old doesn't equal good though, does it? It just means we need to look at our list critically and address its weaknesses, which we all acknowledge.

Winning a final is the target, and any team who has made the eight should be aiming for top four. That's a stated ambition of ours and it absolutely should be our ambition.

I just think so much has to go right for us to make it. Because of our deficiencies our margin for error is wafer thin which is why I don't understand the hysteria when we don't win or the lack of enjoyment when we play well. There's always a but this, or a but that in the case of the latter.

A side that has Khamis as second ruck, Keath, Bruce and Gardner as defensive pillars, and West, Baker, Poulter and VDM in it is expected to trounce a top eight contender and make top four. Does that really stack up? Is it a great coaching effort to get these guys to win by seven goals? Great committed effort from the players to execute a plan?

[jeemak]

I could add Duryea to that list of defensive pillars, because most people think he's cooked. So that's four key roles in defence that are filled by players many don't think are up to it. Does that sound like a defence that should be taking us to top four?

[SonofScray]

A bit light on for traffic around here. Figured I'd bump this one to make sure we're all still aligned on whether the coach is responsible for all outcomes on field.

Was a good performance by a talented team.

[Grantysghost]

Was a good performance by a talented team.

What did you think of the move after quarter time to even out the forward < - > defence numbers?

Thought it was game changing. Baz also killed it with his forward pressure.

[SonofScray]

What did you think of the move after quarter time to even out the forward < - > defence numbers?

Thought it was game changing. Baz also killed it with his forward pressure.
We definitely saw benefits from that when they went to switch the footy. Rarely got beyond the two possessions before a contested scenario. The way Essendon tackled the puzzle we presented reminded me of Brisbane’s effort earlier the year. They made a mess of it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

A bit light on for traffic around here. Figured I'd bump this one to make sure we're all still aligned on whether the coach is responsible for all outcomes on field.

Who knows. We could drop an absolute egg next week and the same questions will get raised. That's the problem with the group. Inconsistent. Unpredictable. Week to week. Quarter to quarter.

The effort last night was superb and finally sustained. But we barely see it for longer than 10 minutes a quarter usually.

Last night our effort was good enough to knock off a midling team but I'm pretty sure we'd have been blown away by the top 5 during either the first quarter or the first half of the 3rd.

[EasternWest]

What did you think of the move after quarter time to even out the forward < - > defence numbers?

Thought it was game changing. Baz also killed it with his forward pressure.

Baz was good last night dunno why jeemak keeps banging on about trading him.

[bornadog]

Baz was good last night dunno why jeemak keeps banging on about trading him.

Is Jeemak and Aza the same person?

[EasternWest]

Is Jeemak and Aza the same person?

Yes.

[azabob]

Is Jeemak and Aza the same person?

I’m taking that as a compliment and so does jeemak.

FWIW I want Smith, prior to last night I wasn’t sure if Smith wanted us. Watching him last night I’m certain he wants to stay .

[Bulldog Joe]

Was everyone so confident we'd beat Essendon at 7:45pm on the 21st of July?

The only thing preventing that confidence was the lack of faith that has been created.

The coach should be giving players the belief and delivering on it consistently.

That we even considered that losing was possible is one of the reasons this thread was started.

[Bulldog Joe]

Old doesn't equal good though, does it? It just means we need to look at our list critically and address its weaknesses, which we all acknowledge.

Winning a final is the target, and any team who has made the eight should be aiming for top four. That's a stated ambition of ours and it absolutely should be our ambition.

I just think so much has to go right for us to make it. Because of our deficiencies our margin for error is wafer thin which is why I don't understand the hysteria when we don't win or the lack of enjoyment when we play well. There's always a but this, or a but that in the case of the latter.

A side that has Khamis as second ruck, Keath, Bruce and Gardner as defensive pillars, and West, Baker, Poulter and VDM in it is expected to trounce a top eight contender and make top four. Does that really stack up? Is it a great coaching effort to get these guys to win by seven goals? Great committed effort from the players to execute a plan?

The deliberate strategy to be older is on everyone. Having chosen that they need to ensure they are better because of it.

[jeemak]

The deliberate strategy to be older is on everyone. Having chosen that they need to ensure they are better because of it.

But if they're old and not good, they're not good, right? That's an organisation problem that needs fixing.

What did you make of the rest of my post and the one after it? Does a team with nine questionable inclusions scream top four material to you?

[jeemak]

I’m taking that as a compliment and so does jeemak.

FWIW I want Smith, prior to last night I wasn’t sure if Smith wanted us. Watching him last night I’m certain he wants to stay .

Yes we do.

[Bulldog Joe]

But if they're old and not good, they're not good, right? That's an organisation problem that needs fixing.

What did you make of the rest of my post and the one after it? Does a team with nine questionable inclusions scream top four material to you?

Khamis was playing due to injury/form of Darcy and Lobby
Keath, Gardner and Duryea are part of the deliberate strategy aiming at top 4. There is no excuse with those.
Bruce is effective cover for injury to Jones.
If there is any question on West and VDM it is about player development.
Baker and Poulter are new this year.

Go and look at Collingwood and where those players were in 2021 and you will find plenty of questions.
Their coach has made an enormous difference and they have players who were fringe or questionable doing the job.

[bornadog]

I’m taking that as a compliment and so does jeemak.

FWIW I want Smith, prior to last night I wasn’t sure if Smith wanted us. Watching him last night I’m certain he wants to stay .


Yes we do.

Great minds think alike

[macca]

The only thing preventing that confidence was the lack of faith that has been created.

The coach should be giving players the belief and delivering on it consistently.

That we even considered that losing was possible is one of the reasons this thread was started.

Spot on @BulldogJoe , and i believe we are doing that, supporting B.Smith
His a power athelete, who is a good runner ,has endurance and speed, and we are lucky his actually a good natural footballer.
We just need to nurture , coach and get him to achieve his potential.

[jeemak]

Isn't part of our problem that we've hung onto players for too long, and possibly shown too much faith in their ability to improve/ step-up?

I have no doubt that we could improve in our player development (our recruiting/ talent development probably isn't that bad), though that's a football department issue - not just a senior coach issue.

[bornadog]

Isn't part of our problem that we've hung onto players for too long, and possibly shown too much faith in their ability to improve/ step-up?

I have no doubt that we could improve in our player development (our recruiting/ talent development probably isn't that bad), though that's a football department issue - not just a senior coach issue.

who do you think we have held on to too long?

[bulldogtragic]

who do you think we have held on to too long?

Off the top of my head:

Start with delisted then rookie listed:

Hahn
Goodes
Hayes
Cavarra
Pearce
Prudden

Then I?d say:

Wood (who chose to walk a year early)
Gowers
Wallis
Martin
Porter
Honeychurch (keeping him made us sack Cloke)
VDM two years (mark this post)

Then I?d say tradable players that we convinced to stay and had value reduce or eliminate with no impact for us:

Hill
J. Grant
Jong


That?s just off the top of my head, without a forensic look.

[bornadog]

Off the top of my head:

Start with delisted then rookie listed:

Hahn
Goodes
Hayes
Cavarra
Pearce
Prudden

Then I?d say:

Wood (who chose to walk a year early)
Gowers
Wallis
Martin
Porter
Honeychurch (keeping him made us sack Cloke)
VDM two years (mark this post)

Then I?d say tradable players that we convinced to stay and had value reduce or eliminate with no impact for us:

Hill
J. Grant
Jong


That?s just off the top of my head, without a forensic look.

How about currently

[bulldogtragic]

How about currently

Duryea & Keath are lucky to be on the list. But as we are thin, it’s harder to say them. Khamis could’ve been traded as clearly he was going to be behind too many up forward.

But those guys are up, perhaps with Bruce, and Sweet will go. Croz, TOB & McLean along with Roarke & Bedendo’s bodies aren’t up to the rigours of AFEL. I don’t think Hannan or McComb is needed either. Raak as a Cat B doesn’t bother me.

So currently on the list, there’s plenty to be done. If most aren’t gone (I can accept a couple might stay for depth for a year) at the end of year we can add them to the list. We need to cut deep for our draft strategy with Croft, but we don’t need to cut unlucky players. There’s just a bunch of guys whose age and injuries have caught up with them, a couple who will seek opportunities elsewhere and a few who just haven’t find enough with their time/opportunities. I dont think too many will lose sleep about losing these guys in their current stage of their careers.

[macca]

Off the top of my head:

Start with delisted then rookie listed:

Hahn
Goodes
Hayes
Cavarra
Pearce
Prudden

Then I?d say:

Wood (who chose to walk a year early)
Gowers
Wallis
Martin
Porter
Honeychurch (keeping him made us sack Cloke)
VDM two years (mark this post)

Then I?d say tradable players that we convinced to stay and had value reduce or eliminate with no impact for us:

Hill
J. Grant
Jong


That?s just off the top of my head, without a forensic look.

Its ironic that Macpherson was playing in VFL and we did not pick him and his still on GCS list, his one that got away

I dont really understand why we keep these fringe players for so long .

Our rookies other than Scott have not really worked out in the last 2 years. Buku needs to play 2 positions to get in the side as a fwd/ruck but is too small to play ruck from seeing the game against essendon last night ( he was soundly beaten by eker champ Phillips and Wright)

There is nothing from last nights game that convinces me that VDM is an AFL footballer
- cannot spoil
- got out run by Hind
- panics whenever has the ball

I am not picking on the guy but i just cannot beleive there is no one else better in the team to play that position

[bulldogtragic]

Its ironic that Macpherson was playing in VFL and we did not pick him and his still on GCS list, his one that got away

I dont really understand why we keep these fringe players for so long .

Our rookies other than Scott have not really worked out in the last 2 years. Buku needs to play 2 positions to get in the side as a fwd/ruck but is too small to play ruck from seeing the game against essendon last night ( he was soundly beaten by eker champ Phillips and Wright)

There is nothing from last nights game that convinces me that VDM is an AFL footballer
- cannot spoil
- got out run by Hind
- panics whenever has the ball

I am not picking on the guy but i just cannot beleive there is no one else better in the team to play that position

MacPherson was a list problem, he was a F/S but GCS jumped in him before our RD pick if we wanted him. But we had a glut of similar and soon to be delisted/traded types like Honeychurch & Hrovat among others clogging up the list. In hindsight, we would’ve moved on one of them and taken Darcy with our last pick. But we’ve been pretty good on getting F/S but also passing on them too correctly included Jayden Foster who Carlton bid on and was a huge disappointment.

Which kind of highlights the earlier point. Stop holding onto fringe players for too long and recruit some kids. They might just become better players than the cloggers you just delisted.

[bulldogtragic]

So will Bevo tender it at years end?

Will we accept it?

[SonofScray]

He should go now so we get started on what’s next. We are in limbo.

[FrediKanoute]

I think the last 3 weeks start to tip the scales. A small loss to the Swans; a decent win vs Essendon; and a loss after coughing up a 30 point lead. He and the brains trust will point to injuries in the GWS game, but our tactic post the injuries were wrong. That is on the coaching team. Personally right now, I would be having conversations with replacement coaches, Cameron, Buckley, maybe even Gia with a view to seeing how the season plays out. Making finals and crashing out is not a pass mark - we topped up experienced players and got no further than last year.

[angelopetraglia]

Cornes at it again ""This is a wasted year, they are wasting one of the AFL's great lists and that comes down to coaching"" https://twitter.com/FootyonNine/status/1685451384731115521?s=20

He makes some valid points. But I don't buy that we have one of the AFLs great lists. Also, he says Marra is in the absolute prime of his career! We have 3 of the 5 best players in the league. He doesn't mention our lack of key defensive talent.

He likes playing the heel. We are an easy target today.

(Interesting. Stevie J "they don't have the talent of Collingwood or Port")

[anfo27]

Cornes at it again ""This is a wasted year, they are wasting one of the AFL's great lists and that comes down to coaching"" https://twitter.com/FootyonNine/status/1685451384731115521?s=20

He makes some valid points. But I don't buy that we have one of the AFLs great lists. Also, he says Marra is in the absolute prime of his career! We have 3 of the 5 best players in the league. He doesn't mention our lack of key defensive talent.

He likes playing the heel. We are an easy target today.

(Interesting. Stevie J "they don't have the talent of Collingwood or Port")

The stats for our defensive part of our game is there for everyone to see. If we don't get the game on our terms then defensively we are a bottom 4 side. That is just unacceptable for any list with the name Bontempelli in it. I said it a number of times & the fact as a club we haven't supported Bevo with the assistant coaches he requires to balance out his obvious weakness is unacceptable also.

Its been years since we can say we were good defensively & the fact we won the flag as an awesome defensive unit its hard to fathom why Bevo has never ever showed any improvement to this side of our game.

[jeemak]

We were pretty good defensively in 2021, outside of a couple of very clear examples!

[anfo27]

We were pretty good defensively in 2021, outside of a couple of very clear examples!

If midfield domination is part of a defensive strategy then yes. We destroyed teams in the midfield in 21. We had most of that year on our terms.

[azabob]

We were pretty good defensively in 2021, outside of a couple of very clear examples!

Except when it mattered. 2021 is two years ago and we have not made significant enough improvements since then.

[angelopetraglia]

I think the last 3 weeks start to tip the scales. A small loss to the Swans; a decent win vs Essendon; and a loss after coughing up a 30 point lead. He and the brains trust will point to injuries in the GWS game, but our tactic post the injuries were wrong. That is on the coaching team. Personally right now, I would be having conversations with replacement coaches, Cameron, Buckley, maybe even Gia with a view to seeing how the season plays out. Making finals and crashing out is not a pass mark - we topped up experienced players and got no further than last year.

Yes. It is the small margins in a close season that kill you. Collingwood win the close games last year and finished top four. This year they have won games by 6, 1, 2 and 2.

If we win the games against the Suns 7, Swans 2 and GWS 5 (had a good claim on all of them) and then we are sitting in the top four and no one is having this conversation. But at critical times we didn't get the job done. It is a very small margin between good and great sometimes.

[mjp]

If we win the games against the Suns 7, Swans 2 and GWS 5 (had a good claim on all of them) and then we are sitting in the top four and no one is having this conversation. But at critical times we didn't get the job done. It is a very small margin between good and great sometimes.

You are 100% right but at the same time 100% wrong.

This comment is kind of against type for me as I would generally say in games won/lost by less than a goal, all that's happened is the siren has gone at the RIGHT time for one team and the WRONG time for another team.

Our losses aren't really like that though.

We have good excuses for the GC defeat (one week Ballarat, next week Darwin?) and the Giants defeat (2x kpd's out of the game). I guess even the Swans game was away from home.

In each defeat though the oppo is 'coming hard' late in the game...it is us 'trying to hold on'. Collingwood have become 'legends' (has a team without a flag ever been held in such esteem) because they 'ALWAYS' come back. For us? Well, we are ALWAYS vulnerable.

Yes - if we had won those games then we would be top 4...at the same time, does anyone think we were EVER going to win those games? The players sure as hell didn't.

[Sedat]

Cornes at it again ""This is a wasted year, they are wasting one of the AFL's great lists and that comes down to coaching"" https://twitter.com/FootyonNine/status/1685451384731115521?s=20

He makes some valid points. But I don't buy that we have one of the AFLs great lists. Also, he says Marra is in the absolute prime of his career! We have 3 of the 5 best players in the league. He doesn't mention our lack of key defensive talent.

He likes playing the heel. We are an easy target today.

(Interesting. Stevie J "they don't have the talent of Collingwood or Port")
The truth is always somewhere in between. Cornes and Stevie J are both partially right. But ultimately it is all outside noise, and Bevo and the club are accountable to their own internal expectations that have influenced list management decisions for the last 4 years. He/the club think we are a top 4 contender and he and the club need to be held accountable to their own words. A finish in the 9-12 bracket is a massive failure against internal expectations, which is all that ultimately matters. There is so much to play for in the next 4 weeks, for both the players and the coaches.

[DOG GOD]

I think the media severely overate our list.
For mine it?s a 6-12 list.

We only have 2 genuine fwds in our fwd line who could play 22 games (Jamarra and Weightman)
We have a slow midfield who unless aren?t in the centre square are pretty much non eventful with no defensive bones in their bodies
We have arguably a top 5 ?worst back KPD? in the AFL. Keath, Gardner, Bruce, O?Brien are stuff of nightmares, with Buss and Darcy a mile away.

Yes we have certain players who have days out or have a consistant year, like Richards or Dale etc, but we are a long way off as far as I can see?and I?m expecting some torrid years coming up, made even worse by the Tassie inclusion (if that even eventuates)

[Bulldog4life]

The truth is always somewhere in between. Cornes and Stevie J are both partially right. But ultimately it is all outside noise, and Bevo and the club are accountable to their own internal expectations that have influenced list management decisions for the last 4 years. He/the club think we are a top 4 contender and he and the club need to be held accountable to their own words. A finish in the 9-12 bracket is a massive failure against internal expectations, which is all that ultimately matters. There is so much to play for in the next 4 weeks, for both the players and the coaches.

And supporters too Sedat.:) I for one am looking forward to the next 4 weeks with relish starting this Friday night against the Tigers. We are still in it. I will only give up once we are not. ;)

[Mantis]

I think the media severely overate our list.
For mine it?s a 6-12 list.

We only have 2 genuine fwds in our fwd line who could play 22 games (Jamarra and Weightman)
We have a slow midfield who unless aren?t in the centre square are pretty much non eventful with no defensive bones in their bodies
We have arguably a top 5 ?worst back KPD? in the AFL. Keath, Gardner, Bruce, O?Brien are stuff of nightmares, with Buss and Darcy a mile away.

Yes we have certain players who have days out or have a consistant year, like Richards or Dale etc, but we are a long way off as far as I can see?and I?m expecting some torrid years coming up, made even worse by the Tassie inclusion (if that even eventuates)

Why exclude Jones from this list? Jones is clearly a top 6-8 key defender when up and going he covers over cracks. Take Darcy Moore out of Collingwood's defence and see how they goes.

[GVGjr]

Cornes at it again ""This is a wasted year, they are wasting one of the AFL's great lists and that comes down to coaching"" https://twitter.com/FootyonNine/status/1685451384731115521?s=20

He makes some valid points. But I don't buy that we have one of the AFLs great lists. Also, he says Marra is in the absolute prime of his career! We have 3 of the 5 best players in the league. He doesn't mention our lack of key defensive talent.

He likes playing the heel. We are an easy target today.

(Interesting. Stevie J "they don't have the talent of Collingwood or Port")

If we were good enough to make the GF in 2021 then I think that indicates it was a bit stronger than some give it credit for.
We also didn't do anything to replace Bruce for 2022 once again which indicates that the club had confidence in the list.

Where Cornes is way off track is around comments that Marra is in his prime which really could be 3 years away.

[angelopetraglia]

You are 100% right but at the same time 100% wrong.

This comment is kind of against type for me as I would generally say in games won/lost by less than a goal, all that's happened is the siren has gone at the RIGHT time for one team and the WRONG time for another team.

Our losses aren't really like that though.

We have good excuses for the GC defeat (one week Ballarat, next week Darwin?) and the Giants defeat (2x kpd's out of the game). I guess even the Swans game was away from home.

In each defeat though the oppo is 'coming hard' late in the game...it is us 'trying to hold on'. Collingwood have become 'legends' (has a team without a flag ever been held in such esteem) because they 'ALWAYS' come back. For us? Well, we are ALWAYS vulnerable.

Yes - if we had won those games then we would be top 4...at the same time, does anyone think we were EVER going to win those games? The players sure as hell didn't.

I think we agree. This is my key point "But at critical times we didn't get the job done." . I'm not saying it is the luck of when the siren goes. I'm saying we needed to be better when it mattered.

[DOG GOD]

Why exclude Jones from this list? Jones is clearly a top 6-8 key defender when up and going he covers over cracks. Take Darcy Moore out of Collingwood's defence and see how they goes.

Even with Jones I don?t rate our backline. Yes HE is good but that?s it. Others are VFL.
Put it this way, I’d rather Collingwoods backline over ours every day of the week.

[hujsh]

Even with Jones I don?t rate our backline. Yes HE is good but that?s it. Others are VFL.
Put it this way, I’d rather Collingwoods backline over ours every day of the week.

Not sure a lot of VFL teams are running around with the likes of Richards, Dale and JJ. You could make that argument for the non-Jones Key defenders and maybe Dureya now he's bit old.

[jeemak]

The continuity with our defence has been diabolical this year. So while we probably have good enough players to compete if they're all together, lose one, two or three of them and it gets really tough.

[bornadog]

The continuity with our defence has been diabolical this year. So while we probably have good enough players to compete if they're all together, lose one, two or three of them and it gets really tough.
But it is Bevo's fault