Sharp Axes

[SonofScray]

Going to put some caveats here because the topic is unpleasant and previous iterations of the discussion across different platforms I’ve felt haven’t always been respectful between posters.

1. Bevo is a good person, I appreciate his contributions to the club.
2. I’d prefer to not be in a position where someone’s job security was being discussed
3. I don’t have a crystal ball to determine what’s next.


Now, with that out of the way, folk are welcome to hand wave this off as an emotional reaction and not participate, or you can help me find some balance in my position and what a reasonable expectation is.


I have wanted Bevo sacked since 2018. For me, I feel like I’ve seen enough from him when he is travelling well, when he is struggling and how we manages his relationships. I feel like I know what I am going to get. Part of what we are getting is performances like last night, in big games. Part of what we are going to get is a finish outside the top four.

I was happy enough with the decision to extend him as it seemed a good option to mitigate any risk of his tenure and contract status becoming a distraction in 2023 and narrows the focus a little so the players and footy department can get cracking in what seemed to be a fresh look at things over summer. We’ve certainly dine and said a bit to have had me feeling bullish.

In 1994 we sacked Wheeler in R2, I can’t recall the details explicitly, because I was a kid. That seems an extraordinary move to me. I’d like Kylie Watson Wheeler, Chris Grant and Ameet Baines to meet today and do the same with Bevo in 2023.

My question, I suppose is, at what point are you going to step across from backing, to sacking Bevo? If at all?

[GVGjr]

Thanks SoS, I know this is a difficult topic to discuss and I know this is a topic close to your heart. We have differing views but I respect yours.

I have to address the removal of Wheeler in my response and I'd like to think we've come a long way since 1994 as a club and a society and in particular the way our club embraces their position within the AFL competition.

From my recollection (and as luck would have it I was often at the club in the week or two leading up to the sacking) and I'm not sure our actions back in 1994 were correct then. Wheeler challenged with getting us competitive early in the season to help membership sales came up short and tensions were at a flashpoint between him and a more confrontation and inexperienced Peter Gordon at the time before Gordo pulled the trigger. I might add some more on this later.

Regarding Bevo position at the club, well I'm not in the camp that Bevo has a position for life if you know what I mean but I'm firmly entrenched in that notion that he is the right person for the job now and that sacking coaches especially so early in the season is essentially a mugs game.

We have to have lofty ambitions for the season and backing the coach, the footy department and the board are all essential pieces to having a strong season. We also enter this season with a very good playing list and I don't believe it's overrated as some have suggested.

We must however make the finals and accepting anything less without some extenuating circumstances being evident is not something our club or supporters should accept.

So to answer your question if it gets to something like round 17 and we aren't in a position to make the finals I'm open to exploring options but making change for the sake of change isn't necessarily a blueprint for success. That said I think there is a lot of potentially good coaches to consider.

I'm backing Bevo and I'm chips in on that position but I know things move quickly in this competition and if you are standing still you are effectively going backwards. We can't accept a backward step.

[SonofScray]

Appreciate the insight re: Wheeler. I recall PG mentioning in an interview something along the lines of he’d like to run that one back and handle it better.

I reckon most will feel really comfortable with your position and even though I am taking the other position, it’s certainly a more reasonable and respectful course of action!

My gut feeling when we extended Bevo was that he’ll see out 1 of the two years. If that’s how it’s going to go, I’d move now and buy time for the incumbent.

[whythelongface]

I get that last night was a poor performance and that there have been many similar performances under Bevo’s watch, but he is also the first coach in our history to take us to two GFs. Now for that to happen means either one of two things:

a) we are bloody lucky or
b) Bevo can coach

For mine it is definitely option B. Bevo is always trying to change things up and find that point of difference based on the personnel we have available. He was able to do that once and nearly pulled it off a 2nd time. He is definitely trying something different with a ‘four headed monster’ approach. Will it work? Who knows but we need to give him time to work this out and how to take advantage of our roster. Even last night there were glimpses of this working - midway through the 2nd we could have been 20+ points except for poor conversion. Once again our biggest issue is momentum swings and letting the opposition get on a roll. The biggest issue is that Bevo is slow in addressing this issue during a game (maybe we don’t have the personnel).

I get the frustration and if we are in a poor position come the mid point of the season then I think questioning Bevo’s position is relevant, however sacking a coach after game 1 is just the worst decision a club can make. We would be at rock bottom with zero upside. The mood and culture of the club would change in an instant. We really need to back him in.

[Grantysghost]

I get the angst SOS, however it’s too early; although I’m certainly thinking if this season is a bust it’s time to look at a refresh at the coaching level.

Bont will be 28, it’s kind of now or never with him and we really don’t have a lot of quality young mids.

Having said that if we get pummelled by the Aints I might join you in the lynch mob !

[SonofScray]

I get the angst SOS, however it’s too early; although I’m certainly thinking if this season is a bust it’s time to look at a refresh at the coaching level.

Bont will be 28, it’s kind of now or never with him and we really don’t have a lot of quality young mids.

Having said that if we get pummelled by the Aints I might join you in the lynch mob !

He’ll have ground down those nice new chompers if things go that way. I really hope they don’t.

I think the Bont is a factor in my position too. I feel like we’re wasting the absolute best player we’ve ever had pull on the jumper. We’re in a race against time to squeeze that juice for all it’s worth. Bevo has wasted too much of that time already. Where’s the urgency.

[Vred]

I was not a fan of us re-signing him after the disastrous 2022 season, he did not earn that contract extension and frankly making him sweat a little would of shown us exactly where he stood, would he innovate and change to keep us in pace with the rest of the competition or would he continue down the same 2022 path?

Last night was enough to me to see that his chosen to stick with the same, boring to watch, excruciating 2022 game style, I saw nothing new, no flashes of different game styles, honestly I don’t even know what our game style is anymore? We aren’t a great team to watch anymore and that’s fairly evident with the AFL taking us off so many prime time spots.

Big thanks to Bevo for all his done, but I get the feeling the game has gone past him, teams are constantly adapting and approving and honestly after last night it feels like we have regressed even more.

I don’t know what the answer is but I honestly feel like this team is wasted right now with a very uneven list, bad coaching and honestly little to no on field leadership.

[anfo27]

I've lost patience with Bevo. Last night was hugely disappointing just purely based on our defensive efforts/tactics. We made plenty of skill errors so we will be better for the run & clearly we made an error of only playing the one practise game. We were clearly rattled after the burst of goals in that 2nd quarter.

The glaring problem is Bevos anti-defense tactics. Not being able to defend the centre square has been an issue for 2 years & that has not been improved on from last nights evidence. Last year our team defence was a horror show. We were the worst team without the footy last year & on last nights showing it looks the same. Our defenders don't defend a man but space & with little to no pressure up the ground then its easy pickings for any midfielder.

How long does it take to put tactics in place to fix this? Is it in Bevo's wheelhouse to fix it?
I'm in the camp that while Bont is still going we need to be all in every year. if we are serious then these tactics are unacceptable. Go all out on the best defensive assistant or something cause what you're doing Bevo is not working.

We'll beat the mid & lower teams but the serious contenders will just smack us like they have been. Thats what i got from round 1.

Another thing was our initial response to taking a mark is to go back instead of play on & take the game on. We play a boring & predictable style. We have the players to be far more adventurous.

[macca]

All great points raised, and I respect the angst, but I am not in the camp to sack coach so early in the season.

We need to address the ROOT problems in our performance and find a way to stop teams when they get a run on.

Look at Collingwood on friday night how they stayed in the game whilst dirty Cats had favorable frees and run on, they were 22 points down at one stage.

Maybe its in the players heads, they dropped their bundle when game gets beyond 4 goals ?

Maybe we are not fit enough?

Maybe teams have worked out our game plan ?

Maybe we really don't have the right players on our list to cover gaps ? Recuriting Lobb, Baker and Jones into the team did not make us a better team against Melbourne last night. I know Jones got injured but the point is, there are gaps on our list.

We are lacking a power mid, Melbourne of Petracca and Oliver, who are absolutely phenomenal with their ability to break tackles , accelerate and just hold onto the play. Langdon( TOG 89%) is severely underrated , and with Hunter ( TOG 87%) there, they have 2 wingman who can run all day. Smith is the only one I see who can fill that position. Can West fill that role ? He was a mid in his junior days, but we play him as a forward.

interesting stat I just saw, 100% TOG :
Tomlinson, Lever and Petty

Top 4 TOG:

Bruce , 96
Lobb. 95
Keath, 95
Richards. 89

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/4791#player-stats

[SonofScray]

We have the players to be far more adventurous.

100%

We play such a joyless, uncertain style of footy. It’s been a frequent flavour to match day since 2018 and I am comfortable in putting that in the coach’s shoulders.

[SonofScray]

All great points raised, and I respect the angst, but I am not in the camp to sack coach so early in the season.

We need to address the ROOT problems in our performance and find a way to stop teams when they get a run on.

Look at Collingwood on friday night how they stayed in the game whilst dirty Cats had favorable frees and run on, they were 22 points down at one stage.

Maybe its in the players heads, they dropped their bundle when game gets beyond 4 goals ?

Maybe we are not fit enough?

Maybe teams have worked out our game plan ?

Maybe we really don't have the right players on our list to cover gaps ? Recuriting Lobb, Baker and Jones into the team did not make us a better team against Melbourne last night. I know Jones got injured but the point is, there are gaps on our list.

We are lacking a power mid, Melbourne of Petracca and Oliver, who are absolutely phenomenal with their ability to break tackles , accelerate and just hold onto the play. Langdon( TOG 89%) is severely underrated , and with Hunter ( TOG 87%) there, they have 2 wingman who can run all day. Smith is the only one I see who can fill that position. Can West fill that role ? He was a mid in his junior days, but we play him as a forward.

interesting stat I just saw, 100% TOG :
Tomlinson, Lever and Petty

Top 4 TOG:

Bruce , 96
Lobb. 95
Keath, 95
Richards. 89

https://www.afl.com.au/afl/matches/4791#player-stats

Appreciate the response and the questions you raise are worth pondering. Addressing even a few and perhaps I am not calling for his head. I feel like a coach with his experience and time under his belt, we shouldn’t be asking so many of those questions though, we should know.

When would you be ringing the alarm bells? That’s the thing I am most curious about. We’ve had some frustrating seasons, but have stuck fat so far.

[ledge]

If we don’t make finals this year I believe Bevo will be in strife . But will good coaches be around and ready to go . Do we go experienced or a new one ? I do believe there is no excuse to not make top 6 this year accept the dreaded injury ridden club.

[mjp]

Maybe its in the players heads, they dropped their bundle when game gets beyond 4 goals ?

I'm happy to blame anyone and everyone...but you can't coach effort.

The continued capitulations are exhausting...I was happy to go with the 'Dunks and Hunter have been/are a distraction and an unhappy playing group cannot/will not fight the fight when the chips are down' storyline...

But now what?

All I have heard/read all pre-season is how 'together' we are. Yet last night we run around like no-one has met one another - let alone trusts them to help with ANYTHING - either attack or defend...the think about a team is you have to be predictable to one another - with ball in hand and when defending. Who watches us play and thinks: "There is a group with a unified purpose"....

Honestly - I just don't think the playing group cares about being 'great' - or even good. They - and I've said this before - care about their numbers and being selected and wearing their polo shirts around like every good AFL footballer does. But the whole thing where they need to bleed for it and commit to 'DO' something together, something of 'note' - well, that is way down the priority list.

Following the team is exhausting because it really feels like we have heard the same song EVERY YEAR since the premiership...I guess you could exclude 2021 in a lot of ways but - from a supporters perspective (and as I said in the 'other' thread), 2021 'SUCKED' - and if Dry Rot is out there yes I did just quote myself and yes that should be a $2 fine.

Do I think we have the wrong coach? Maybe. Do I think we have (overall) the wrong 'team' leading the side - Coaches, AC's, Captain, Leadership group? Yeah - I 100% do. Something is wrong and has been for a long time. It's been wrong for so long that I'm not exactly sure anyone on the inside is in a great position to identify exactly WHAT it is...

[Mofra]

Honestly - I just don't think the playing group cares about being 'great' - or even good. They - and I've said this before - care about their numbers and being selected and wearing their polo shirts around like every good AFL footballer does. But the whole thing where they need to bleed for it and commit to 'DO' something together, something of 'note' - well, that is way down the priority list.
I've often wondered who our 'scrappers' are. They guys who are barely talented enough to play football but do everything in their power to make it. The guys who were overlooked for years before getting their chance. The guy who puts his teammate on notice if they cut any corners.
The Matthew Boyd playing Frankston 2nds as a 19 year old. The Liam Picken freezing his arse off in the middle of winter at Williamstown.
The 22 year old Tory Dickson running around Noble Park. Tim Callan in the same boat for mine - delisted by Geelong, never made a rep squad as a junior, etc

Harvey G was overlooked in his draft year and I like that selection, but who else by their mere presence sharpens up the guys who came through the regular pathway?

[Hotdog60]

I'm in the not sack camp and I would let him coach out his contract.
In saying that if we faulter this year then we would need to do our homework and look at options for when the contract expires.
Bevo has been our most successful Finals coach since Charlie Sutton and there have been some very lean times in between that time with Rocket getting us close but not close enough.
On the other side is it the coach or the cattle his given Power has done a great job with the list but has he done well with the foot soldiers the guys that make up 70% of the team.
We have some star players but do they have the help they need to make them look better.
We been picking up rejects and suspect VFL players for the last few years and maybe we should have been drafting kids that you can mould rather than players who have had their chance and bring the inherent flaws they have had from the beginning.
It may not always be the coach and this may sound like a bad workman blaming his tools but have we been buying the right tools for the job.

[GVGjr]

I'm happy to blame anyone and everyone...but you can't coach effort.

The continued capitulations are exhausting...I was happy to go with the 'Dunks and Hunter have been/are a distraction and an unhappy playing group cannot/will not fight the fight when the chips are down' storyline...

But now what?



I agree in theory that you can't coach effort but equally if continually accept less commitment during a game than you really want and that you don't address it your silence is setting a lower level of acceptance and some players pick up on that.




All I have heard/read all pre-season is how 'together' we are. Yet last night we run around like no-one has met one another - let alone trusts them to help with ANYTHING - either attack or defend...the think about a team is you have to be predictable to one another - with ball in hand and when defending. Who watches us play and thinks: "There is a group with a unified purpose"....

Honestly - I just don't think the playing group cares about being 'great' - or even good. They - and I've said this before - care about their numbers and being selected and wearing their polo shirts around like every good AFL footballer does. But the whole thing where they need to bleed for it and commit to 'DO' something together, something of 'note' - well, that is way down the priority list.



I think you have hit the nail here, we want to be good but perhaps we aren't as prepared to make the sacrifices along the way to be great.




Following the team is exhausting because it really feels like we have heard the same song EVERY YEAR since the premiership...I guess you could exclude 2021 in a lot of ways but - from a supporters perspective (and as I said in the 'other' thread), 2021 'SUCKED' - and if Dry Rot is out there yes I did just quote myself and yes that should be a $2 fine.

Do I think we have the wrong coach? Maybe. Do I think we have (overall) the wrong 'team' leading the side - Coaches, AC's, Captain, Leadership group? Yeah - I 100% do. Something is wrong and has been for a long time. It's been wrong for so long that I'm not exactly sure anyone on the inside is in a great position to identify exactly WHAT it is...

That's worth staring into. Let me give it some more thought.

[macca]

I've often wondered who our 'scrappers' are. They guys who are barely talented enough to play football but do everything in their power to make it. The guys who were overlooked for years before getting their chance. The guy who puts his teammate on notice if they cut any corners.
The Matthew Boyd playing Frankston 2nds as a 19 year old. The Liam Picken freezing his arse off in the middle of winter at Williamstown.
The 22 year old Tory Dickson running around Noble Park. Tim Callan in the same boat for mine - delisted by Geelong, never made a rep squad as a junior, etc

Harvey G was overlooked in his draft year and I like that selection, but who else by their mere presence sharpens up the guys who came through the regular pathway?

I would like to add Lin Jong , Wallis before his leg broken, Big Red, Will Minson , Adcock, Prudden and Honeychurch

All players that bleed for us

Jong was highly respected for his attack on the ball
Suckling and Jong very unlucky not to be able to be in the GT

Does our current depth have the ferocity and hardness to get us there?

[Dogs 24/7]

I doubt we have the stones to make a hard call on Beveridge even if it was required. Im all for backing him but there are some worrying signs but that comes with the territory of a team with expectations on them. Measure up to them and everything is fine but fall short of them and speculation will grow.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The heat will come quickly if things don't turn around on field. The media don't exactly need an excuse to line Bevo up given his relationship with them over the last few years.

[MrMahatma]

The heat will come quickly if things don't turn around on field. The media don't exactly need an excuse to line Bevo up given his relationship with them over the last few years.

My gut says we'll be out-coached this weekend and lose. And then... well, it'll be on.

[GVGjr]

The heat will come quickly if things don't turn around on field. The media don't exactly need an excuse to line Bevo up given his relationship with them over the last few years.

It's too early for me to get worried about a potential coaching change and I'm invested in Bevo but come later in the season we need to be right in the finals mix not loitering around trying or hoping to make up the numbers.
It's a brutal competition with regard to meeting and delivering on expectations and we have rightly been favored to be a significant player come finals. If we fall short we will need for an honest assessment to be made but at the moment last weeks result is just a blip on the radar from my perspective.

[Rocket Science]

It's too early for me to get worried about a potential coaching change and I'm invested in Bevo but come later in the season we need to be right in the finals mix not loitering around trying or hoping to make up the numbers.
It's a brutal competition with regard to meeting and delivering on expectations and we have rightly been favored to be a significant player come finals. If we fall short we will need for an honest assessment to be made but at the moment last weeks result is just a blip on the radar from my perspective.

Can't help but feel the word "rightly" is doing some unfeasibly heavy lifting there G ...

[GVGjr]

Can't help but feel the word "rightly" is doing some unfeasibly heavy lifting there G ...

Fair call and observation there RS.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It's too early for me to get worried about a potential coaching change and I'm invested in Bevo but come later in the season we need to be right in the finals mix not loitering around trying or hoping to make up the numbers.
It's a brutal competition with regard to meeting and delivering on expectations and we have rightly been favored to be a significant player come finals. If we fall short we will need for an honest assessment to be made but at the moment last weeks result is just a blip on the radar from my perspective.

I don't think the club will react, but I would expect the media to beat the drums - particularly if Port/Hinkley continue their form.

We'll be an easy target, but ultimately, it'll be our own doing.

[GVGjr]

I don't think the club will react, but I would expect the media to beat the drums - particularly if Port/Hinkley continue their form.

We'll be an easy target, but ultimately, it'll be our own doing.

I think last weeks result is more a less a blip but..if things don't go our way this will challenge the club and it's management.

Working out the reason why what is a talented list didn't measure up requires a level of honesty and professionalism that some clubs might shy away from and that on that point it could be a challenge for us.

We can't really use the excuse that the list wasn't strong enough without explaining why we weren't more aggressive with our list changes over the last couple of years and given we topped up with experienced types at the end of the season the indication is that in the clubs opinion we thought we were right in the window.

[jazzadogs]

I think last weeks result is more a less a blip but..if things don't go our way this will challenge the club and it's management.

Working out the reason why what is a talented list didn't measure up requires a level of honesty and professionalism that some clubs might shy away from and that on that point it could be a challenge for us.

We can't really use the excuse that the list wasn't strong enough without explaining why we weren't more aggressive with our list changes over the last couple of years and given we topped up with experienced types at the end of the season the indication is that in the clubs opinion we thought we were right in the window.

Can't agree it's a blip when it's consistent with how we perform against the top sides.

Our win against Melbourne last year was the blip. These performances are the norm.

[jazzadogs]

My gut says we'll be out-coached this weekend and lose. And then... well, it'll be on.

I can't see the club making any coaching change before round 5, and probably not before the bye. We did front up against a good team, with a new structure and some key new members - I think we need a few weeks at least (and we play some more good teams during the first five) to determine whether the pre season coaching has actually lead to any real change.

BUT I also think if Bevo feels he has lost trust of the board/football management, then he would walk.

[bornadog]

I can't see the club making any coaching change this year.

more accurate

[GVGjr]

Can't agree it's a blip when it's consistent with how we perform against the top sides.

Our win against Melbourne last year was the blip. These performances are the norm.

The season has just started but we do have some challenges matching up with the Dees. In the scheme of the season I need to see a few more games to gauge our response.

[The bulldog tragician]

It is too early to make these calls. After all we blitzed Geelong in round 1 2007. They won the flag. We missed finals.

I feel some of my disillusionment is linked to a feeling of a lack of transparency & communication on where club leadership sees ourselves and where are we going. Two horrible finals capitulations in a row but we’re never really told what the club has learnt & how it’s being addressed. Is it fitness, tactics, whatever - the so called review either didn’t happen or we weren’t privileged to know the answers but from the outside very little - bar one new coach coming in - appears to have changed. Yet the club in going for two 30+ year olds is signalling we are in the window and only minimal change needed. I think that’s why Saturday night was hard to take. If we lose on Saturday it will be hard not to feel an implosion is coming.

[azabob]

TBT, a great rational well thought out post.

[jeemak]

It is too early to make these calls. After all we blitzed Geelong in round 1 2007. They won the flag. We missed finals.

I feel some of my disillusionment is linked to a feeling of a lack of transparency & communication on where club leadership sees ourselves and where are we going. Two horrible finals capitulations in a row but we’re never really told what the club has learnt & how it’s being addressed. Is it fitness, tactics, whatever - the so called review either didn’t happen or we weren’t privileged to know the answers but from the outside very little - bar one new coach coming in - appears to have changed. Yet the club in going for two 30+ year olds is signalling we are in the window and only minimal change needed. I think that’s why Saturday night was hard to take. If we lose on Saturday it will be hard not to feel an implosion is coming.

TBT did you happen to catch Chris Grant at half time of our intra-club match? He gave really good insight into what was identified as a weakness by the playing group and how they took responsibility for being more accountable for their consistency in games, across games and across the season. I feel the first test on that front has been dismally failed.

He also talked to some of the issues we had with our list and how they were addressed, though unfortunately our two major recruits didn't impact the game how we might have liked.

Additionally the club has stated it believes it should be contending for a top four birth, all but emphatically. Their position that we have the ingredients but not the consistency was really clear. Team defence was also stated as a clear area for improvement by Bevo in recent interviews, where we languished last year but performed really well in 2021.

This is the first time in a while where I feel the club's leadership has been clear with where they think we're at. Didn't help us round one, however!

[Mavericks]

The biggest problem I see is the lack of quality assistants coaches in recent years. Most successful coaches have great assistants. Why doesn’t the club attract quality and we end up with Webb and Spangler who have very ordinary resumes. Yes I know Matt is close to Luke but should Luke have that much say. Why do we pay unders for assistants? How much does Bevo get paid? He whines more than anyone about the soft cap.

i am concerned we have let quality walked away in Corey, Dalrymple, Montgomery who appeared to be major players in our Flag. It appears after the review the club thought Lade was the answer. I am not sure anyone can keep him in check.

if I was running the club I would give him to round 12. We need to be 7-5 for him to stay.

[GVGjr]

The biggest problem I see is the lack of quality assistants coaches in recent years. Most successful coaches have great assistants. Why doesn’t the club attract quality and we end up with Webb and Spangler who have very ordinary resumes. Yes I know Matt is close to Luke but should Luke have that much say. Why do we pay unders for assistants? How much does Bevo get paid? He whines more than anyone about the soft cap.

i am concerned we have let quality walked away in Corey, Dalrymple, Montgomery who appeared to be major players in our Flag. It appears after the review the club thought Lade was the answer. I am not sure anyone can keep him in check.

if I was running the club I would give him to round 12. We need to be 7-5 for him to stay.

I can't agree with this assessment Mavs.
Lade is a very good 2IC and has brought a lot to us.
Webb seems to be the more quieter one within the group but he has a wealth of knowledge and worked under Lyon for a few years.
Smith is a brilliant motivator and team builder and I think Spangher has some very solid skills and traits and communicates so well.
Then we have the development team of Maddocks, Varcoe, Martin and Edge is there from the VFL.

We could always do with an extra but we change change that at the moment.

Where we could be let down is I don't think we have appointed anyone to fulfill the role vacated by Chris Maple and that is a vital role to support the coaches and the sports science team. I guess that Chris Grant might be filling in there.

[The bulldog tragician]

TBT did you happen to catch Chris Grant at half time of our intra-club match? He gave really good insight into what was identified as a weakness by the playing group and how they took responsibility for being more accountable for their consistency in games, across games and across the season. I feel the first test on that front has been dismally failed.

He also talked to some of the issues we had with our list and how they were addressed, though unfortunately our two major recruits didn't impact the game how we might have liked.

Additionally the club has stated it believes it should be contending for a top four birth, all but emphatically. Their position that we have the ingredients but not the consistency was really clear. Team defence was also stated as a clear area for improvement by Bevo in recent interviews, where we languished last year but performed really well in 2021.

This is the first time in a while where I feel the club's leadership has been clear with where they think we're at. Didn't help us round one, however!

No, I missed that. Even hearing that - which sounds like it addresses some of what I’m talking about- I’d probably like to see more specifics. I guess I still find “consistency” a bit vague - I mean, it still begs the question of why. Fitness? Attitude? Players not yet in the right window of enough pre seasons? Something else? And the midfield unaccountability has dogged us since 2016. I’m pretty sure that in 2021 there were still matches where a lowly team such as Carlton or GC had blitzes and could rattle on goals at will. But thanks for posting a bit about what chris said.

[Dogs 24/7]

It is too early to make these calls. After all we blitzed Geelong in round 1 2007. They won the flag. We missed finals.

I feel some of my disillusionment is linked to a feeling of a lack of transparency & communication on where club leadership sees ourselves and where are we going. Two horrible finals capitulations in a row but we’re never really told what the club has learnt & how it’s being addressed. Is it fitness, tactics, whatever - the so called review either didn’t happen or we weren’t privileged to know the answers but from the outside very little - bar one new coach coming in - appears to have changed. Yet the club in going for two 30+ year olds is signalling we are in the window and only minimal change needed. I think that’s why Saturday night was hard to take. If we lose on Saturday it will be hard not to feel an implosion is coming.

Now that is a great use of some stats and you have identified some excellent points.

[MrMahatma]

I can't see the club making any coaching change before round 5, and probably not before the bye. We did front up against a good team, with a new structure and some key new members - I think we need a few weeks at least (and we play some more good teams during the first five) to determine whether the pre season coaching has actually lead to any real change.

BUT I also think if Bevo feels he has lost trust of the board/football management, then he would walk.

My “it’ll be on” was in reference to the media being on his back. Bevo isn’t going anywhere this year and I’d doubt next.

[jeemak]

No, I missed that. Even hearing that - which sounds like it addresses some of what I’m talking about- I’d probably like to see more specifics. I guess I still find “consistency” a bit vague - I mean, it still begs the question of why. Fitness? Attitude? Players not yet in the right window of enough pre seasons? Something else? And the midfield unaccountability has dogged us since 2016. I’m pretty sure that in 2021 there were still matches where a lowly team such as Carlton or GC had blitzes and could rattle on goals at will. But thanks for posting a bit about what chris said.

The match is still up on the website, but alas, the half time interview has been edited out!

He did go into more detail, I was paraphrasing - but now can't remember exactly what was said (the intra club thread may have comments from posters). The leaders spoke up about consistency in effort/ concentration/ intensity etc. and wanted specific training to address the lapses. I get the impression our issues are between the ears, and come down to a collective of individuals unwilling to give their all for an entire game or every week.

You're dead right though, it's been plaguing us for a while now.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

TBT did you happen to catch Chris Grant at half time of our intra-club match? He gave really good insight into what was identified as a weakness by the playing group and how they took responsibility for being more accountable for their consistency in games, across games and across the season. I feel the first test on that front has been dismally failed.

He also talked to some of the issues we had with our list and how they were addressed, though unfortunately our two major recruits didn't impact the game how we might have liked.

Additionally the club has stated it believes it should be contending for a top four birth, all but emphatically. Their position that we have the ingredients but not the consistency was really clear. Team defence was also stated as a clear area for improvement by Bevo in recent interviews, where we languished last year but performed really well in 2021.

This is the first time in a while where I feel the club's leadership has been clear with where they think we're at. Didn't help us round one, however!

Oh boy. Hearing the players are taking it upon themselves to become more concentrated and consistent for longer doesn't exactly instil me with confidence. They don't have a great track record.

[Mavericks]

I am hopeful Lade has some major impact but looking at the weekend the only difference is game style was standing the mark.

it can take a few weeks to get going noting we only played North while Dees played Tigers and another team. They were far better prepared. In hindsight playing just one practice game was a mistake. In 1997 our first game was a shocker and we turned it around.

Se have half a season to get a good sample. I will revisit my assessment in a few weeks and hope I am wrong but gee we looked terrrible on Saturday night.

[FrediKanoute]

BUT I also think if Bevo feels he has lost trust of the board/football management, then he would walk.

I agree.

My take is that next 2 weeks shape as a really important. It wasn't losing to Melbourne that was the problem, it was capitulating, giving up almost. That smacks of a club where the coach has lost the players. His ability to get them up week after week is no longer there.

I am n the wait and see class, but to blow a generation of players like we have had would be disappointing.

[jazzadogs]

I agree.

My take is that next 2 weeks shape as a really important. It wasn't losing to Melbourne that was the problem, it was capitulating, giving up almost. That smacks of a club where the coach has lost the players. His ability to get them up week after week is no longer there.

I am n the wait and see class, but to blow a generation of players like we have had would be disappointing.

I do struggle a bit with this sort of language, and 'wasted the Bont years'. We are one of only 5 teams to have won a flag during 'the Bont years'. You only have to look at Geelong to see how hard they are to win.

We blew the 08-10 generation. We have succeeded with this generation - but should absolutely still be chasing more success.

[Mantis]

The season has just started but we do have some challenges matching up with the Dees. In the scheme of the season I need to see a few more games to gauge our response.

Aren't we just lucky that they had 3-4 of their better performed players against us missing in May, Fritsch, Viney & Salem.. imagine the carnage that would've been inflicted if they were in the side.

[Grantysghost]

Aren't we just lucky that they had 3-4 of their better performed players against us missing in May, Fritsch, Viney & Salem.. imagine the carnage that would've been inflicted if they were in the side.

It was one of the most deflating starts to a season I can recall.
Only way is up.

[MrMahatma]

Aren't we just lucky that they had 3-4 of their better performed players against us missing in May, Fritsch, Viney & Salem.. imagine the carnage that would've been inflicted if they were in the side.

Fritsch would’ve kicked 8 and that smug grin…

[GVGjr]

Aren't we just lucky that they had 3-4 of their better performed players against us missing in May, Fritsch, Viney & Salem.. imagine the carnage that would've been inflicted if they were in the side.

That's the more scary part because May always matches up well on our key forwards, Salem provides run and good use of the footy, Viney a bit of grunt in the middle and Fritsch hurts us on the scoreboard.
With May out that limited them to one intercepting defender in Lever and we couldn't really get someone to keep him in check.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It was one of the most deflating starts to a season I can recall.
Only way is up.

I agree. We always seem to find a way to sit on our own balls.

I just want to see a group of players united in spirit and fight. I am prepared to accept we're not good enough - if that's the case, but only once we see our best, against the best, for a full game.

And my frustration won't ease if we win this weekend, but it will rise if we lose. We need to carve out a couple of months of consistent Bulldog's best football to convince me we've learned and are mentally equipped to give it our best shot in 2023

[bornadog]

That's the more scary part because May always matches up well on our key forwards, Salem provides run and good use of the footy, Viney a bit of grunt in the middle and Fritsch hurts us on the scoreboard.
With May out that limited them to one intercepting defender in Lever and we couldn't really get someone to keep him in check.

Maybe Weightman, Gardner and Jones for a full game could also have made a difference. Or a VDM, R Smith?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I agree. We always seem to find a way to sit on our own balls.

I just want to see a group of players united in spirit and fight. I am prepared to accept we're not good enough - if that's the case, but only once we see our best, against the best, for a full game.

And my frustration won't ease if we win this weekend, but it will rise if we lose. We need to carve out a couple of months of consistent Bulldog's best football to convince me we've learned and are mentally equipped to give it our best shot in 2023

I've been wanting to see this for 4 years. Every off-season and start of a new season I stupidly get my hopes up of some change. This off-season especially i had high hopes of change.

The hope and subsequent let-down is what hurts most. This group isn't going to bring change.

[GVGjr]

I agree. We always seem to find a way to sit on our own balls.

I just want to see a group of players united in spirit and fight. I am prepared to accept we're not good enough - if that's the case, but only once we see our best, against the best, for a full game.

And my frustration won't ease if we win this weekend, but it will rise if we lose. We need to carve out a couple of months of consistent Bulldog's best football to convince me we've learned and are mentally equipped to give it our best shot in 2023

That is the frustrating part. You can't be a long term Dogs supporter and not be able to accept losses and deal with the fact we might not be good enough but what we were known for and built a reputation on over a number of years was our fighting spirit.

It's the lack of spirit, not the quality of the playing list, that I'm starting to worry about.

[hujsh]

Okay football detox over. And it looks like I've missed the coincidental return of Danjul who is definitely not my secret alter ego who expresses all my doubts and worries so don't even think that that could be the case.

Calling for the coach to be sacked round 1 is some old school Richmond shit. I get the issues are not new but nevertheless it's something we can assess end of year or second half of the year if things get really bad.

I think it's tricky, Bevo has on paper been objectively successful. But by his own criteria he's past his coaching expiry date. He's clearly passionate and could easily have a future in football whether it's as our coach or just about any other role. He could also easily return to normie life.

If we don't make finals then given our list it's time to be a bit ruthless and make a change. If we find the right guy (like Bevo was in 2015) it could easy be a year 1 premiership for this new coach given the list.

If we don't win any finals, baring exceptional circumstances, it's probably the same.

If we win some amount of finals Bevo probably stays.


For now it's just too early. I was thinking about 2007 earlier this week and I noticed others have brought it up as well. It's good perspective to keep in mind. Likewise who thought Richmond was going to be premiers midway through 2017? Need a bit of patience thought I get why that might be in short supply

[Sedat]

Aren't we just lucky that they had 3-4 of their better performed players against us missing in May, Fritsch, Viney & Salem.. imagine the carnage that would've been inflicted if they were in the side.
As good as that quartet are (and they are elite), Melbourne are a system based team whose 23-26 ranked players know and understand their role within the team to the letter. Of course these 4 would have made for even more difficult match-ups, which would have moved the needle even further in their favour, but the bigger concern for me is that their system is clearly more robust and gives far more consistent output than our system. They are reliable, as are Geelong, and it appears as are Collingwood under McCrae. As was Richmond for 4 years. Have we been week-to-week reliable for a sustained period of time outside of 2016 and early 2021? Possibly 2nd half of 2015.

[hujsh]

As good as that quartet are, Melbourne are a system based team whose 23-26 ranked players know and understand their role within the team to the letter.

The concern for me is that their system is clearly more robust and gives more consistent output than our system.

Objectively true.

[mjp]

It was one of the most deflating starts to a season I can recall.
Only way is up.

Well....

[Dogs 24/7]

Maybe Weightman, Gardner and Jones for a full game could also have made a difference. Or a VDM, R Smith?
By getting it back to a 50 point margin.

[mjp]

...it could easy be a year 1 premiership for this new coach given the list.


Do you really think so?

I just don't think the list is that good. Don't take this for me saying that we don't have talent - we do - but (and use last week as an example - and even the Freo final);

Forward: Small forwards - nothing. Weightman played vs Freo and was a non-factor. Hannan is a 'never was' and pretty much 100% of JJ's positive games have come down the other end.

Tall forwards - Naughton - absolutely A-grade. Jamarra and Darcy are kids and they can't provide consistent effort from moment to moment let alone week-to-week. I agree, Lobb 'shoulda' been better BUT if you look at his history.

Mids - Outside: Baker and Scott are making their way.
Inside: Bont, Macrae, Liber, Treloar and Smith are all amazing obviously...but we have zero 'balance' in that group and each of them could quite comfortably be the '#1' player in an AFL midfield...my issues with this are well documented.

Backs - Tall: Well, Jones is 18-months out and got injured...I'm still concerned he's old and wont be consistent but acknowledge I'm in the minority. Bruce is coming off 10-years as a forward and an ACL repair. Keath seriously appeared to have 'forgotten how to football' last year.
Running: Dale and Daniel are elite but don't defend that much - what they do is awesome tho.
General: Richards, Duryea: Richards is going awesome and been great since mid-season last year, Duryea (to me) is a step off his best...but he's getting older now and needs support.

English: What he does he does well but again - he's at his best in ball movement, running etc...basically, he's the ruck equivalent of our midfield group. I'm probably not explaining this well but if we wanted a strong, competitive presence amongst the mids then neither our starting mids nor our rucks are programmed that way.

Outside of that? Well, we have a heap of unproven kids (McNeil, Garcia, West etc) and a couple of other veterans (TOB, Crozier) who seem to be 'break glass in emergency' type players...

If our mids start working together and really focussing on the RWB getting the footy forward effectively rather than every individual having 30+, well...I suspect we could still win the flag. But I don't think we have so much talent that a new coach could just come in and ride them to victory...

[bornadog]

By getting it back to a 50 point margin.

It was a 50 point margin.

The point is mixing in different players can have a different outcome.

[Sedat]

Do you really think so?

I just don't think the list is that good. Don't take this for me saying that we don't have talent - we do - but (and use last week as an example - and even the Freo final);

Forward: Small forwards - nothing. Weightman played vs Freo and was a non-factor. Hannan is a 'never was' and pretty much 100% of JJ's positive games have come down the other end.

Tall forwards - Naughton - absolutely A-grade. Jamarra and Darcy are kids and they can't provide consistent effort from moment to moment let alone week-to-week. I agree, Lobb 'shoulda' been better BUT if you look at his history.

Mids - Outside: Baker and Scott are making their way.
Inside: Bont, Macrae, Liber, Treloar and Smith are all amazing obviously...but we have zero 'balance' in that group and each of them could quite comfortably be the '#1' player in an AFL midfield...my issues with this are well documented.

Backs - Tall: Well, Jones is 18-months out and got injured...I'm still concerned he's old and wont be consistent but acknowledge I'm in the minority. Bruce is coming off 10-years as a forward and an ACL repair. Keath seriously appeared to have 'forgotten how to football' last year.
Running: Dale and Daniel are elite but don't defend that much - what they do is awesome tho.
General: Richards, Duryea: Richards is going awesome and been great since mid-season last year, Duryea (to me) is a step off his best...but he's getting older now and needs support.

English: What he does he does well but again - he's at his best in ball movement, running etc...basically, he's the ruck equivalent of our midfield group. I'm probably not explaining this well but if we wanted a strong, competitive presence amongst the mids then neither our starting mids nor our rucks are programmed that way.

Outside of that? Well, we have a heap of unproven kids (McNeil, Garcia, West etc) and a couple of other veterans (TOB, Crozier) who seem to be 'break glass in emergency' type players...

If our mids start working together and really focussing on the RWB getting the footy forward effectively rather than every individual having 30+, well...I suspect we could still win the flag. But I don't think we have so much talent that a new coach could just come in and ride them to victory...
Sobering assessment, in particular the bolded bits.

1: Small forwards. We basically invented the prototype chaos territory gameplan that killed off the Hawthorn precision short kicking uncontested possession game plan of 2012-2015. Richmond then refined and perfected this, with their cluster of small forwards all knowing their role and providing relentless speed and pressure to maintain territory. Did we not see this trend further evolving, when we were the architects of it in the first place? McNeill and Scott have their limitations, but we have never looked better since 2016 than when these 2 understood their role as relentless small pressure forwards in the first 6 rounds of 2021. Not saying they are the answer now, but the balance was right in early 2021 with these 2 as role players inside F50. Weightman is not a small pressure forward and will never be. He is basically Jamie Elliott, which is still awesome but doesn't help retain the ball inside F50.

2: Inside mids. The balance is askew and has been for years. Who is going to sacrifice their ball-winning game and evolve for the overall benefit of the team like Angus Brayshaw did for Melbourne at the start of 2021? Or like Matty Boyd did in 2015. We can't continue to go bees to the honeypot and get killed on the spread from turnover and have our one-paced midfield exposed on the counter. Dirty clearances (of which we excel in) are going to get picked off with ease by the better teams in the competition.

3: English. Nothing further to add that I haven't said a million times before. If he is not programmed to become a relentless stoppage ruck animal, we are going to continue to compete with one hand tied behind our back at stoppages against the better teams as we have done for the most part since 2019. It's not as though Rhys Stanley is Nank or Ben Hudson, but he managed to become a far more robust stoppage ruckman (to my surprise) in 2022, which went a long way to addressing a critical weakness of Geelong. English by any measure is a superior footballer to Stanley - it's up to him to get angry and become much stronger and uncompromising in the coalface at every single contest against the best where it counts.

[DOG GOD]

Great assessments by yourself Sedat and MJP.

Just my 2 cents.
Macrae can run all day, even though he looks like he’s on a tread mill most of the time, and he is the ideal replacement for Hunter. Would he crack the shits playing that role though? Probably, but would it improve the TEAM? I think so. His defensive qualities in the centre square is pretty much non existent. We need someone to sacrifice.

Smith should take the other wing. Plain and simple.

I know majority would disagree with me here but English is NOT a first ruck. He is the one who should be playing the Lobb role. Is 100% better than Lobb in all of marking and agility.

And if it is remotely true about English stating that if he wasn’t the number 1 ruck the would leave, then I would’ve moved him on.

English has proven he is not competive in the big games as #1.

The fact that he still is is an indictment on Bevo and the MC as far as I’m concerned.

[hujsh]

Do you really think so?

I just don't think the list is that good. Don't take this for me saying that we don't have talent - we do - but (and use last week as an example - and even the Freo final);

Forward: Small forwards - nothing. Weightman played vs Freo and was a non-factor. Hannan is a 'never was' and pretty much 100% of JJ's positive games have come down the other end.

Tall forwards - Naughton - absolutely A-grade. Jamarra and Darcy are kids and they can't provide consistent effort from moment to moment let alone week-to-week. I agree, Lobb 'shoulda' been better BUT if you look at his history.

Mids - Outside: Baker and Scott are making their way.
Inside: Bont, Macrae, Liber, Treloar and Smith are all amazing obviously...but we have zero 'balance' in that group and each of them could quite comfortably be the '#1' player in an AFL midfield...my issues with this are well documented.

Backs - Tall: Well, Jones is 18-months out and got injured...I'm still concerned he's old and wont be consistent but acknowledge I'm in the minority. Bruce is coming off 10-years as a forward and an ACL repair. Keath seriously appeared to have 'forgotten how to football' last year.
Running: Dale and Daniel are elite but don't defend that much - what they do is awesome tho.
General: Richards, Duryea: Richards is going awesome and been great since mid-season last year, Duryea (to me) is a step off his best...but he's getting older now and needs support.

English: What he does he does well but again - he's at his best in ball movement, running etc...basically, he's the ruck equivalent of our midfield group. I'm probably not explaining this well but if we wanted a strong, competitive presence amongst the mids then neither our starting mids nor our rucks are programmed that way.

Outside of that? Well, we have a heap of unproven kids (McNeil, Garcia, West etc) and a couple of other veterans (TOB, Crozier) who seem to be 'break glass in emergency' type players...

If our mids start working together and really focussing on the RWB getting the footy forward effectively rather than every individual having 30+, well...I suspect we could still win the flag. But I don't think we have so much talent that a new coach could just come in and ride them to victory...


Don't get me wrong, my language may not have been perfect but I don't mean it would be a Brad Scott 2011 sit back and let the champion team carry me sort of year by any means. Moreso that a quality coach could come in and quite quickly turn our list of talented players into a quality team capable of winning a premiership.

I know the list itself isn't perfect but if we have anything we have a great core. At least on paper. A new coach, a new system, player buy in, utilizing players utilized talents... Who knows who the next Easton Wood or Lindsay Gilbee is and where they're hiding on our list.

You don't disagree the talent is there so IMO it's either player application or coaching (or some mix and match of both) that's keeping us from being a top team. After all we could similarly dissect just about any other team in the comp and find similar issues with their lists. With the right coaches/systems we wouldn't see our weak points so consistently and thoroughly on display every single week. Never forget WE WON A PREMIERSHIP WITH FLETCHER ROBERTS AS OUR CHB AND ZAIN CORDY AS OUR CHF! The club has clearly communicated they know what the weaknesses are and have tried to address them, it remains to be seen if that work will pay off.

Did anyone here think in 2014 we had the list to even make finals in 2015 let alone win a premiership in 2016? I thought maybe in 2018, 2019 (god damn I'm good at being wrong) but certainly not that soon.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

A list is as good as the system it plays in and the players ability to perform their role in that system.

There have been plenty of examples over the years where you'd probably not rate a list one year. Then the team gets a new coach, new gameplan etc and suddenly looks pretty good. Collingwood is probably the most recent example. We were one such example in 2015.

[Grantysghost]

A list is as good as the system it plays in and the players ability to perform their role in that system.

There have been plenty of examples over the years where you'd probably not rate a list one year. Then the team gets a new coach, new gameplan etc and suddenly looks pretty good. Collingwood is probably the most recent example. We were one such example in 2015.

You can get that new coach bounce, not sure how sustainable it is sometimes. Collingwood is a great example though (so far).

I think we've all said it many times, he needs new assistants from good systems.
Lade is a great start and it's probably no coincidence English had one of his better ruck games on the weekend.
Back Bevo, get him some fresh ideas in there.

Webb I've heard is good on here, I'm yet to see evidence of it however.

[jeemak]

Or the team shows up, gels and commits like it did for twenty odd weeks in 2021.

Perhaps we're not keeping it fresh enough to stimulate the players, the delicate things they are. That boring old team defence and two hours of committed effort and concentration each week may not be enough to get them out of bed.

[GVGjr]

Or the team shows up, gels and commits like it did for twenty odd weeks in 2021.

Perhaps we're not keeping it fresh enough to stimulate the players, the delicate things they are. That boring old team defence and two hours of committed effort and concentration each week may not be enough to get them out of bed.

At times we looked awesome in 21, getting on a roll is vital

[josie]

At times we looked awesome in 21, getting on a roll is vital

Agree our best in ‘21 was good. And we rolled over like puppy dogs wanting a tummy rub in some later games that cost us a top 4 finish.

[GVGjr]

Do you really think so?

I just don't think the list is that good. Don't take this for me saying that we don't have talent - we do - but (and use last week as an example - and even the Freo final);

Forward: Small forwards - nothing. Weightman played vs Freo and was a non-factor. Hannan is a 'never was' and pretty much 100% of JJ's positive games have come down the other end.

Tall forwards - Naughton - absolutely A-grade. Jamarra and Darcy are kids and they can't provide consistent effort from moment to moment let alone week-to-week. I agree, Lobb 'shoulda' been better BUT if you look at his history.

Mids - Outside: Baker and Scott are making their way.
Inside: Bont, Macrae, Liber, Treloar and Smith are all amazing obviously...but we have zero 'balance' in that group and each of them could quite comfortably be the '#1' player in an AFL midfield...my issues with this are well documented.

Backs - Tall: Well, Jones is 18-months out and got injured...I'm still concerned he's old and wont be consistent but acknowledge I'm in the minority. Bruce is coming off 10-years as a forward and an ACL repair. Keath seriously appeared to have 'forgotten how to football' last year.
Running: Dale and Daniel are elite but don't defend that much - what they do is awesome tho.
General: Richards, Duryea: Richards is going awesome and been great since mid-season last year, Duryea (to me) is a step off his best...but he's getting older now and needs support.

English: What he does he does well but again - he's at his best in ball movement, running etc...basically, he's the ruck equivalent of our midfield group. I'm probably not explaining this well but if we wanted a strong, competitive presence amongst the mids then neither our starting mids nor our rucks are programmed that way.

Outside of that? Well, we have a heap of unproven kids (McNeil, Garcia, West etc) and a couple of other veterans (TOB, Crozier) who seem to be 'break glass in emergency' type players...

If our mids start working together and really focussing on the RWB getting the footy forward effectively rather than every individual having 30+, well...I suspect we could still win the flag. But I don't think we have so much talent that a new coach could just come in and ride them to victory...

I've been pushing for more list changes than we do for years but our recruiting and our trading most years indicates as a club we either really rate the playing list as finals quality or we are trying and hoping we can stay up so as to not impact memberships.
Even Bevo's prompt reappointment indicates the clubs regards us as being in the 'window'.

I think the top up approach with state level type players that can come in and add a bit of depth but more often than not means their ceiling is somewhat limited is where we might have too many similar types.

This is a big year for us and by the end of it we will know if the top up approach actually works or not.

[Virgin-Dog]

I've been pushing for more list changes than we do for years but our recruiting and our trading most years indicates as a club we either really rate the playing list as finals quality or we are trying and hoping we can stay up so as to not impact memberships.
Even Bevo's prompt reappointment indicates the clubs regards us as being in the 'window'.

I think the top up approach with state level type players that can come in and add a bit of depth but more often than not means their ceiling is somewhat limited is where we might have too many similar types.

This is a big year for us and by the end of it we will know if the top up approach actually works or not.
I think we’ve been carrying certain speculative types and depth talls a little too long. Way too many short talls that aren’t best 22. What is the scope for Raak, Khamis, Bedendo, O’Brien, Cleary and Hannan to play meaningful roles in our seniors? Hannan’s ongoing selection is baffling at the best of times, but I’d much rather retain maybe 2 or 3 of these guys from next year onwards, and open the list spots for players with higher upside. If it were up to me, I’d easily keep Khamis and Cleary, and consider Bedendo (dependent on his improvement and fitness this year) but move the others on. Replacing those list spots with a small pressure forward, a developing ruck and a key defender instantly makes our long term prospects look better.

[GVGjr]

I think we’ve been carrying certain speculative types and depth talls a little too long. Way too many short talls that aren’t best 22. What is the scope for Raak, Khamis, Bedendo, O’Brien, Cleary and Hannan to play meaningful roles in our seniors? Hannan’s ongoing selection is baffling at the best of times, but I’d much rather retain maybe 2 or 3 of these guys from next year onwards, and open the list spots for players with higher upside. If it were up to me, I’d easily keep Khamis and Cleary, and consider Bedendo (dependent on his improvement and fitness this year) but move the others on. Replacing those list spots with a small pressure forward, a developing ruck and a key defender instantly makes our long term prospects look better.

Sounds like a reasonable plan. I think we are two emerging players light on in a small and or pressure forward roles. If we address that the list will look far better balanced. I'm not 100% sure why but to me Cleary, Khamis and Raak might all make it but this year is very important to them.

[bornadog]

Sounds like a reasonable plan. I think we are two emerging players light on in a small and or pressure forward roles. If we address that the list will look far better balanced. I'm not 100% sure why but to me Cleary, Khamis and Raak might all make it but this year is very important to them.

Also, you have to have soldiers and backup players.

[FrediKanoute]

That is the frustrating part. You can't be a long term Dogs supporter and not be able to accept losses and deal with the fact we might not be good enough but what we were known for and built a reputation on over a number of years was our fighting spirit.

It's the lack of spirit, not the quality of the playing list, that I'm starting to worry about.

This is an interesting point. In the AFL at on a weekend only a max of 9 teams can win every week; at the end of the season only one team can win; In sport generally, teams and individuals fail more often than they succeed.

If you watch the Ashes doco Khawaja makes this point that as a batsmen if you measure success in hundreds scored then ultimately as a batsman he fails much more than he succeeds and he has learnt to celebrate the successes. Same is true in all sports.

Its the way you lose that is key

[westbulldog]

This club /players / coaches in particular have nfi how to predict an opposition run on and even less idea how to stop it.

[SonofScray]

This is an interesting point. In the AFL at on a weekend only a max of 9 teams can win every week; at the end of the season only one team can win; In sport generally, teams and individuals fail more often than they succeed.

If you watch the Ashes doco Khawaja makes this point that as a batsmen if you measure success in hundreds scored then ultimately as a batsman he fails much more than he succeeds and he has learnt to celebrate the successes. Same is true in all sports.

Its the way you lose that is key
That’s the thing I am feeling really sensitive about, the rote, familiar manner of our losses and the incongruity of what we see in those games compared to what our best football looks like.

[JanLorMill]

It’s time. Officially cooked

[bulldogtragic]

Leaving aside the overarching theme. Are the players listening to him? Surely this isn’t what he’s telling them.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Leaving aside the overarching theme. Are the players listening to him? Surely this isn’t what he’s telling them.

I don't think so, but at some point the answer to that question is irrelevant.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think so, but at some point the answer to that question is irrelevant.

No way with years to run the club does anything soon. I guess the question is how much shit everyone needs to eat before it becomes a serious question.

Hard to attract gun players and gun free agents with heaps of picks and cash with a start to a year like this…

[SonofScray]

Swing it now.

[1eyedog]

So tired of Bevo we were treading water for a long time but the capitulation against Freo, Melbourne and the Saints has been shocking even by our standard. It feels like we are in the worse spot we've ever been under Bevo when we should be maturing as a group and he should be at the top of his game.

Nothing could be further than the truth. 5-0 start coming up. No chance Bevo gets tapped on the shoulder we'll devolve to basket case first and unfortunately have to stay there for a while.

[jeemak]

Unless there's a sharp turnaround over the next two weeks I feel his time is up.

The players aren't working hard enough and they're not responding to whatever it is he is telling them. Someone new coming in and spearing them with some home truths might be all that can turn them around as players or the majority of them will fade away.

[bulldogtragic]

Bevo has three years salary promised to him right?

[1eyedog]

Bevo has three years salary promised to him right?

Shit load of money we're stuck with him.

[bulldogtragic]

Shit load of money we're stuck with him.

Yep. Signed too early. So just have to make it work somehow. We made our bed.

[jeemak]

I'd be surprised if there wasn't a termination clause in there that offset some of the damage.

[Mofra]

Bevo has three years salary promised to him right?
Coach payouts are 6 month now

[Dry Rot]

Coach payouts are 6 month now

Thank Christ

[1eyedog]

We legit do not even have a solid caretaker coach to hold the reins even if we wanted to go rogue.

[azabob]

We legit do not even have a solid caretaker coach to hold the reins even if we wanted to go rogue.

Jimmy Bartel is available

[GVGjr]

Bevo has three years salary promised to him right?

Depends on a few things. Coaching contracts aren't secure depending on the funding you receive from the AFL

[jazzadogs]

We legit do not even have a solid caretaker coach to hold the reins even if we wanted to go rogue.

Lade would be a more than adequate caretaker, if it came to that.

Those are two of the poorest back to back performances I can remember in the Bevo era. It is amazing how he can tap in to emotion at times - and at other times it feels like there is no connection between coach and players at all.

[DOG GOD]

Give MJP the job

[azabob]

Lade would be a more than adequate caretaker, if it came to that.

Those are two of the poorest back to back performances I can remember in the Bevo era. It is amazing how he can tap in to emotion at times - and at other times it feels like there is no connection between coach and players at all.

Throw in the final against Freo and it’s disastrous

[DOG GOD]

No game plan, no passion.

[JanLorMill]

Coach payouts are 6 month now
Highly unlikely given our president is rarely seen or heard.

[anfo27]

Tonight was an example of what I'm talking about. Lyon has had 6 months with an average list & the saints had system & intensity. They also believe in the system. We've been seeing these issues for how bloody long? Six months to have some semblance of a defensive system & all we've seen is this anti-defence system.
I can't see us sacking chompers! All we can hope for is more smashings to force change. Either chompers is gone or chompers finally realises his anti-defence philosophy is done & needs to change.

[Dry Rot]

Highly unlikely given our president is rarely seen or heard.

Need President Kim Jong-un to takeover.

Gets things done. Very good offensively.

[1eyedog]

Throw in the final against Freo and it’s disastrous

2021 Grand Final and Round 1 2022 were way worse but this is shit.

[jazzadogs]

2021 Grand Final and Round 1 2022 were way worse but this is shit.

I'd argue that the GF was nowhere near as bad as tonight because a) at least we turned up for more than 12 minutes and b) the opponent was good.

Tonight we were beaten by effort and system. Horrible.

[westbulldog]

In a dream I had Brad Johnson, Dale Morris, Matthew Boyd and Bob Murphy as the coaching group :)

[Vred]

Tap him on the shoulder. Play the kids for the year, get as many quick young mids at the draft as possible, pick up Leppitsch, Yze or Cox as head coach for next season, move on deadwood, go again in 2024.

This year is done under Bevo.

[GVGjr]

Tap him on the shoulder. Play the kids for the year, get as many quick young mids at the draft as possible, pick up Leppitsch, Yze or Cox as head coach for next season, move on deadwood, go again in 2024.

This year is done under Bevo.

By design we are the 5th most experienced list. Playing the kids isn't the answer.

[SonofScray]

Yze, Cox, Caracalla, Buckley, Boyd, Cox

Who can start on Monday?

[Vred]

By design we are the 5th most experienced list. Playing the kids isn't the answer.

I'd prefer to see games in the Clarks, Bedendos, Cleary, Buku types than our guys who are going to be retiring in 1-2 years.

[anfo27]

By design we are the 5th most experienced list. Playing the kids isn't the answer.

Are you losing patience with chompers?

[Vred]

Yze, Cox, Caracalla, Buckley, Boyd, Cox

Who can start on Monday?

Leppitsch, was with Richmond during there run of 3 flags, now with the Pies. Probably one of the best system based coaches you could get considering how both Richmond and the new-Pies play. If he could bring even half of that to our team that would be a great start.

[1eyedog]

I'd argue that the GF was nowhere near as bad as tonight because a) at least we turned up for more than 12 minutes and b) the opponent was good.

Tonight we were beaten by effort and system. Horrible.

You have a solid point

[GVGjr]

I'd prefer to see games in the Clarks, Bedendos, Cleary, Buku types than our guys who are going to be retiring in 1-2 years.

I get the point you're making but the conclusion you are reaching isn't right.
Based on his training Clarke needs a couple of weeks at Footscray. Bedendo is injured and a way off even playing for Footscray. Cleary probably needs some more continuity and Buku is probably right in the mix.
Arty should be around the mark in the next couple of weeks.

[SonofScray]

I get the point you're making but the conclusion you are reaching isn't right.
Based on his training Clarke needs a couple of weeks at Footscray. Bedendo is injured and a way off even playing for Footscray. Cleary probably needs some more continuity and Buku is probably right in the mix.
Arty should be around the mark in the next couple of weeks.

We need to see Arty when he is ready. Need his enthusiasm.

[G-Mo77]

Could we please get in a DeLorean and convince the Saints to take Bevo and not offer him a 2 year deal!?!?!

[GVGjr]

We need to see Arty when he is ready. Need his enthusiasm.

On Friday the young man was sensational with his efforts and he really worked hard with his sprinting. Such an upbeat young man as well.

[GVGjr]

Yze, Cox, Caracalla, Buckley, Boyd, Cox

Who can start on Monday?

I hear you but I doubt there is anything to be gained from making a quick and reactive move. You need to go through a process.

Lets say we move on Bevo, and just to be clear I'm still right behind him, in the next couple of weeks well you can just about back it in that Lade gets the interim role.

Scenario 1 - The Paul Roos example
We wear a few more losses but by mid season we start to turn it all around and Lade gets on a roll and wins 7 out of the last 8 games we don't make the finals but we've shown enough and some of the younger players have made clear steps.
He has also played his cards perfectly and has gotten in front of the sponsors and the coterie groups and won them over in his interim capacity by conveying his vision for this club.
Going out to the market for interviews to get the best candidate is now increasingly difficult because Lade has significant internal support. You don't want to piss off the major club sponsors and have rumblings in the coterie groups as that is a very difficult scenario for the club to manage and one that I wouldn't be confident we have the skills to counter.

Scenario 2 - The Alan Joyce experience
The club feels like it has to make the move on Bevo as results aren't in line with how we rate the list. As a premiership coach and possibly our most successful one ever it needs to be done in a quick and respectful manner. The problem is that in this industry it's almost impossible to conduct interviews or to canvass candidates without it leaking and then having to manage all the noise it will create and given Bevo isn't a fool he's going to know he is being under minded. That is a poor scenario for us and even if you could somehow make a quick appointment how do you measure if it's the right fit for us? The playing list and the plans around game style and fitness wasn't theirs and you really don't know if they are the right fit because you rushed it.

Scenario 3 - The Rocket Eade example
Despite sustained and impressive results it's become evident that Bevo has some challenges in taking the list and the club any further. As a club you say all the right things of support but you start a review. You pitch it that we may not have the right footy department set up in place and blame it mainly on the AFL's soft cap. That is a great scenario because it's someone else's fault.
You start your review but quickly suspect Bevo's done his best and a change is required. You can call in experts like Buckley to get his opinions about our footy department set-up and guess what you can also gauge if he is genuinely someone you might be interested in under the guise that he's a consultant who is helping us out.
As the weeks drag on and reviews are never quick, a call to Cameron or Gia can be made just to see if they might be interested. You can probably manage that scenario and keep it quiet because they are reading the play. By round 17 or so you announce you are making a change and Bevo steps away handing the keys to Lade who can't do any real damage but who might impress.
You have also built a list of candidates that you can start working with and if Bevo was to suspect he was in a losing battle by the middle of the season and he jumps early then the club thanks him for his outstanding journey and wishes him all the best.

As fans and supporters we might have to suck it up for a year but scenario 3 works the best in my opinion in getting the appointment right. I hope it never gets to that stage but making change for change sake is a mugs game.

[1eyedog]

I hear you but I doubt there is anything to be gained from making a quick and reactive move. You need to go through a process.

Lets say we move on Bevo, and just to be clear I'm still right behind him, in the next couple of weeks well you can just about back it in that Lade gets the interim role.

Scenario 1 - The Paul Roos example
We wear a few more losses but by mid season we start to turn it all around and Lade gets on a roll and wins 7 out of the last 8 games we don't make the finals but we've shown enough and some of the younger players have made clear steps.
He has also played his cards perfectly and has gotten in front of the sponsors and the coterie groups and won them over in his interim capacity by conveying his vision for this club.
Going out to the market for interviews to get the best candidate is now increasingly difficult because Lade has significant internal support. You don't want to piss off the major club sponsors and have rumblings in the coterie groups as that is a very difficult scenario for the club to manage and one that I wouldn't be confident we have the skills to counter.

Scenario 2 - The Alan Joyce experience
The club feels like it has to make the move on Bevo as results aren't in line with how we rate the list. As a premiership coach and possibly our most successful one ever it needs to be done in a quick and respectful manner. The problem is that in this industry it's almost impossible to conduct interviews or to canvass candidates without it leaking and then having to manage all the noise it will create and given Bevo isn't a fool he's going to know he is being under minded. That is a poor scenario for us and even if you could somehow make a quick appointment how do you measure if it's the right fit for us? The playing list and the plans around game style and fitness wasn't theirs and you really don't know if they are the right fit because you rushed it.

Scenario 3 - The Rocket Eade example
Despite sustained and impressive results it's become evident that Bevo has some challenges in taking the list and the club any further. As a club you say all the right things of support but you start a review. You pitch it that we may not have the right footy department set up in place and blame it mainly on the AFL's soft cap. That is a great scenario because it's someone else's fault.
You start your review but quickly suspect Bevo's done his best and a change is required. You can call in experts like Buckley to get his opinions about our footy department set-up and guess what you can also gauge if he is genuinely someone you might be interested in under the guise that he's a consultant who is helping us out.
As the weeks drag on and reviews are never quick, a call to Cameron or Gia can be made just to see if they might be interested. You can probably manage that scenario and keep it quiet because they are reading the play. By round 17 or so you announce you are making a change and Bevo steps away handing the keys to Lade who can't do any real damage but who might impress.
You have also built a list of candidates that you can start working with and if Bevo was to suspect he was in a losing battle by the middle of the season and he jumps early then the club thanks him for his outstanding journey and wishes him all the best.

As fans and supporters we might have to suck it up for a year but scenario 3 works the best in my opinion in getting the appointment right. I hope it never gets to that stage but making change for change sake is a mugs game.

Are you Chris Grant?

[anfo27]

I hear you but I doubt there is anything to be gained from making a quick and reactive move. You need to go through a process.

Lets say we move on Bevo, and just to be clear I'm still right behind him, in the next couple of weeks well you can just about back it in that Lade gets the interim role.

Scenario 1 - The Paul Roos example
We wear a few more losses but by mid season we start to turn it all around and Lade gets on a roll and wins 7 out of the last 8 games we don't make the finals but we've shown enough and some of the younger players have made clear steps.
He has also played his cards perfectly and has gotten in front of the sponsors and the coterie groups and won them over in his interim capacity by conveying his vision for this club.
Going out to the market for interviews to get the best candidate is now increasingly difficult because Lade has significant internal support. You don't want to piss off the major club sponsors and have rumblings in the coterie groups as that is a very difficult scenario for the club to manage and one that I wouldn't be confident we have the skills to counter.

Scenario 2 - The Alan Joyce experience
The club feels like it has to make the move on Bevo as results aren't in line with how we rate the list. As a premiership coach and possibly our most successful one ever it needs to be done in a quick and respectful manner. The problem is that in this industry it's almost impossible to conduct interviews or to canvass candidates without it leaking and then having to manage all the noise it will create and given Bevo isn't a fool he's going to know he is being under minded. That is a poor scenario for us and even if you could somehow make a quick appointment how do you measure if it's the right fit for us? The playing list and the plans around game style and fitness wasn't theirs and you really don't know if they are the right fit because you rushed it.

Scenario 3 - The Rocket Eade example
Despite sustained and impressive results it's become evident that Bevo has some challenges in taking the list and the club any further. As a club you say all the right things of support but you start a review. You pitch it that we may not have the right footy department set up in place and blame it mainly on the AFL's soft cap. That is a great scenario because it's someone else's fault.
You start your review but quickly suspect Bevo's done his best and a change is required. You can call in experts like Buckley to get his opinions about our footy department set-up and guess what you can also gauge if he is genuinely someone you might be interested in under the guise that he's a consultant who is helping us out.
As the weeks drag on and reviews are never quick, a call to Cameron or Gia can be made just to see if they might be interested. You can probably manage that scenario and keep it quiet because they are reading the play. By round 17 or so you announce you are making a change and Bevo steps away handing the keys to Lade who can't do any real damage but who might impress.
You have also built a list of candidates that you can start working with and if Bevo was to suspect he was in a losing battle by the middle of the season and he jumps early then the club thanks him for his outstanding journey and wishes him all the best.

As fans and supporters we might have to suck it up for a year but scenario 3 works the best in my opinion in getting the appointment right. I hope it never gets to that stage but making change for change sake is a mugs game.

Agreed but doesn't it all come down to if chompers has lost the players? Clearly I have no idea about that but on performance it may look that way.

[SonofScray]

I hear you but I doubt there is anything to be gained from making a quick and reactive move. You need to go through a process.

Lets say we move on Bevo, and just to be clear I'm still right behind him, in the next couple of weeks well you can just about back it in that Lade gets the interim role.

Scenario 1 - The Paul Roos example
We wear a few more losses but by mid season we start to turn it all around and Lade gets on a roll and wins 7 out of the last 8 games we don't make the finals but we've shown enough and some of the younger players have made clear steps.
He has also played his cards perfectly and has gotten in front of the sponsors and the coterie groups and won them over in his interim capacity by conveying his vision for this club.
Going out to the market for interviews to get the best candidate is now increasingly difficult because Lade has significant internal support. You don't want to piss off the major club sponsors and have rumblings in the coterie groups as that is a very difficult scenario for the club to manage and one that I wouldn't be confident we have the skills to counter.

Scenario 2 - The Alan Joyce experience
The club feels like it has to make the move on Bevo as results aren't in line with how we rate the list. As a premiership coach and possibly our most successful one ever it needs to be done in a quick and respectful manner. The problem is that in this industry it's almost impossible to conduct interviews or to canvass candidates without it leaking and then having to manage all the noise it will create and given Bevo isn't a fool he's going to know he is being under minded. That is a poor scenario for us and even if you could somehow make a quick appointment how do you measure if it's the right fit for us? The playing list and the plans around game style and fitness wasn't theirs and you really don't know if they are the right fit because you rushed it.

Scenario 3 - The Rocket Eade example
Despite sustained and impressive results it's become evident that Bevo has some challenges in taking the list and the club any further. As a club you say all the right things of support but you start a review. You pitch it that we may not have the right footy department set up in place and blame it mainly on the AFL's soft cap. That is a great scenario because it's someone else's fault.
You start your review but quickly suspect Bevo's done his best and a change is required. You can call in experts like Buckley to get his opinions about our footy department set-up and guess what you can also gauge if he is genuinely someone you might be interested in under the guise that he's a consultant who is helping us out.
As the weeks drag on and reviews are never quick, a call to Cameron or Gia can be made just to see if they might be interested. You can probably manage that scenario and keep it quiet because they are reading the play. By round 17 or so you announce you are making a change and Bevo steps away handing the keys to Lade who can't do and real damage but who might impress.
You have also built a list of candidates that you can start working with and if Bevo was to suspect he was in a losing battle by the middle of the season and he jumps early then the club thanks him for his outstanding journey and wishes him all the best.

As fans and supporters we might have to suck it up for a year but scenario 3 works the best in my opinion in getting the appointment right. I hope it never gets to that stage but making change for change sake is a mugs game.

This is a good scenario analysis.

I’d be prepared to risk scenario 1, but 3 is the safe bet.

[GVGjr]

[/B]
Agreed but doesn't it all come down to if chompers has lost the players? Clearly I have no idea about that but on performance it may look that way.

Anfo, he hasn't lost the players from what I have seen. It's also a footy expression that gets thrown around more than it should.

[Funke disco]

[/B]
Agreed but doesn't it all come down to if chompers has lost the players? Clearly I have no idea about that but on performance it may look that way.


I think that depends on how he has “lost the players”

are they no longer motivated by him, is he unable to clearly communicate his game plan? = scenario 3

Is there open revolt dislike for him circa end of 2014 = change now

[anfo27]

Anfo, he hasn't lost the players from what I have seen. It's also a footy expression that gets thrown around more than it should.

If he hasn't lost the players then chompers deserves the chance to fix the mess he created. What did you see in the pre-season when it comes to changing the way we defend? Cause I ain't seen anything to suggest he has done anything new & what I did read was us going back to something that has never waorked.

[GVGjr]

Are you Chris Grant?

I watch the show Jeopardy so the response should be Who is Chris Grant?

[GVGjr]

If he hasn't lost the players then chompers deserves the chance to fix the mess he created. What did you see in the pre-season when it comes to changing the way we defend? Cause I ain't seen anything to suggest he has done anything new & what I did read was us going back to something that has never waorked.

Do we need to keep making the Chompers reference? While I get that we are all frustrated by our performances to me there is no question that Bevo deserves a bit more respect than that.

What if, and I don't know this for sure, losing Maple and Graham over the last few years is the real root cause of the challenges we are facing?
It's genuinely perplexing why we are playing so poorly.

[anfo27]

I think that depends on how he has “lost the players”

are they no longer motivated by him, is he unable to clearly communicate his game plan? = scenario 3

Is there open revolt dislike for him circa end of 2014 = change now

As followers with no inside information its impossible to answer. I believe he hasn't lost the players but its bloody hard to tell with what they are showing us.

Remember the adage of 'Its never as good as its seems & conversely its never as bad as it seems'. I do believe this. After 2016 we were all talking dynasties, must have been drinking our own bath water. Now its sack the coach.

I truly think we can turn it around but we need big changes & strong leadership. I don't think we have strong leadership personally. They say you can't change your tactics once the season starts. Have to wait until pre-season. Rubbish! If we get our pants pulled down every week that will force change. People making noise brings change.

[Grantysghost]

Do we need to keep making the Chompers reference? While I get that we are all frustrated by our performances to me there is no question that Bevo deserves a bit more respect than that.

What if, and I don't know this for sure, losing Maple and Graham over the last few years is the real root cause of the challenges we are facing?
It's genuinely perplexing why we are playing so poorly.

Yeah who started that ffs.

Grow up idiots.

[DOG GOD]

I have never seen our team with such an inept mindset/game plan etc. The players are not galvanised and are not playing for eachother. In my experience when someone has to continually say how together the playing group is, they are only saying to make others believe in a fallacy.
Hawks have a fight on their hands for Harley Reid.

[anfo27]

Do we need to keep making the Chompers reference? While I get that we are all frustrated by our performances to me there is no question that Bevo deserves a bit more respect than that.

What if, and I don't know this for sure, losing Maple and Graham over the last few years is the real root cause of the challenges we are facing?
It's genuinely perplexing why we are playing so poorly.

Honestly, I can't take him seriously with that look.

Can you expand on that? What did we lose with Maple & Graham that might be making a difference? Was there any semblance of a new system in pre-season?

[GVGjr]

This is a good scenario analysis.

I’d be prepared to risk scenario 1, but 3 is the safe bet.

You're actually suggesting the Alan Joyce scenario aren't you? Make the change and appoint someone but not an interim appointment because the coaches you suggested are very unlikely to want to jump in for an interim role.

[DOG GOD]

Honestly, I can't take him seriously with that look.

Can you expand on that? What did we lose with Maple & Graham that might be making a difference? Was there any semblance of a new system in pre-season?

The only change to our game plan was to incorporate the 4 pronged talls in the fwd line hoping one can pluck all the long bombs.

[GVGjr]

Yeah who started that ffs.

Grow up idiots.

You're a visionary GG.

[anfo27]

The only change to our game plan was to incorporate the 4 pronged talls in the fwd line hoping one can pluck all the long bombs.

That idea will never work if we have no system. We can't honestly say in 2015 a defence of Hambling & Roberts was premiership material. You put a system in place that the players believe in & it did work.

[Grantysghost]

You're a visionary GG.

Haha. It had its time now it's time to put it on the holster.

BTW : the issues with character set seem to only happen in iOS. Wonder if it's an Apple update.

[angelopetraglia]

There is clearly something wrong. That is obvious. How did it get to this? We don't know exactly but my hypothesis and one that has been thrown around on this board for sometime is the support around Bevo in the football department and in particular assistant coaches. Other clubs have bolstered this area in recent years and we have gone in the opposite direction. Other teams have ex senior coaches and a plethora of high quality assistants. We lost two respected senior coaches at the end of 2021 and did little to replace them. We bring in Lade this year but it ain't enough. The way we have adapted in the last few years in regards to how we defend the ground and move the ball has fallen way behind the competition leaders.

We have become way too reliant on just Bevo and he looks tired and bereft of ideas. He looks like he is carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders.

For comparisons. Let's look at the Melbourne coaching team. Compare the depth of talent and experience to us. The club has failed in their duty to support Bevo. I'm sure he pushed back saying we have great people helping me, but he needs some higher quality coaching talent who can challenge Bevo and the plying group.

Coach.

Goodwin.

Assistants.

Yze
Richardson
Chaplin
Williams
Stafford

[Hotdog60]

We haven't replaced Boyd who was hard nosed and Morris who gives his all and was very tight on his opponent.
I think we broken even with Richards taking JJ spot.
I think Boyd with his leadership could be a telling factor.
There is Woody but he was more injured than not and could be covered.
The bigger issue at the moment is in the middle and we need some speed and aggression with half decent skills.
Our Mids are too offensive and too slow on the counter.
Libba is great but if the player breaks his tackles Libba isn't going to catch them.
Overall we seem like a team lacking urgency the countless times with players jogging after their opponents when they are not in the play was mind boggling because they eventually become the next link in the chain and our player is miles off the pace.

[josie]

I’d like to have seen an external full review rather than the internal one we ran. I’m really concerned we will lose Naughty or other players who want out after what looks like a disappointing year ahead. We will also be an unattractive destination for target players.

[SonofScray]

You're actually suggesting the Alan Joyce scenario aren't you? Make the change and appoint someone but not an interim appointment because the coaches you suggested are very unlikely to want to jump in for an interim role.

Not really, I’ve conflated my want to make a change with my want to have Bevo out now.

Ideally, we do let him see out the season while we canvass the names I mentioned. That’s the smart play.

The risky one, which my impatience is driving me towards is to pull the trigger now, Lade the lucky fella to get the chance and force that awkward scenario if he can find something.

[kruder]

Just even getting Lade from St Kilda was a strange decision, what intel where we going to get from their program?

Has anyone picked up any changes to our gameplan apart from not backing off the mark?

[GVGjr]

Haha. It had its time now it's time to put it on the holster.

BTW : the issues with character set seem to only happen in iOS. Wonder if it's an Apple update.

Thanks, That's a great pick-up

[G-Mo77]

I’d like to have seen an external full review rather than the internal one we ran. I’m really concerned we will lose Naughty or other players who want out after what looks like a disappointing year ahead. We will also be an unattractive destination for target players.

Ahh, the old internal review. Translated to ticking boxes and doing FA. It's not just Bevo who needs to go, anyone who ticked off his extension needs to be walked out the door. We don't need people in those positions making decisions based on nostalgia.

[Stevo]

Yeah who started that ffs.

Grow up idiots.

There are innovators and imitators and you are clearly have a knack and an eye for detail.

[Grantysghost]

There are innovators and imitators and you are clearly have a knack and an eye for detail.

Ha, just not important detail ;)

[mjp]

We need to see Arty when he is ready. Need his enthusiasm.

I get it. But when we 'NEED' the input of a 2nd year player who is yet to debut, I do wonder if we are thinking clearly right now.

Dreamers pick kids.

If there is going to be a change in our fortunes, that change comes from Bont, Naughts, Macrae, Jones, Keath, Daniel, Liber etc - it comes from our senior players, our BEST players. I'm not saying don't give Jones a chance - sure, whatever...but any meaningful change to the current outcomes isn't going to come because Jones is declared fit and the MC decided to immediately pick him. TBH - if he is fit he should 100% play VFL and probs for 2-3 weeks (at least)...he's just missed 3x weeks for goodness sake and it will be 4 by the time next weekend rolls around.

Playing better is the solution. Not plucking kids and depending on them to create some excitement!

[Scorlibo]

My question, I suppose is, at what point are you going to step across from backing, to sacking Bevo? If at all?

A week ago this question seemed to me not worth contemplating, but a week's a long time in footy!

That game last night was nothing short of diabolical. We've all put in our two cents on where our shortcomings are, and based on last night all of those views are 100% true - where do our problems lie?

Well the midfield can't win centre clearances, the whole side's getting outworked on the spread, we're not getting numbers to the contest either, our forwards can't take a grab, we don't have any genuine small forwards, our defenders can't hit targets, we have players going through the midfield rotations who can't find the football, we employ a listless zone, we're not fit enough, the team is too slow, the effort isn't there etc. etc. etc.

I mean... based on last night it's all true. There are a lot of issues and I have no expectation that they can be fixed in five days. That would then give us a 0-3 start to the season with Richmond and Port Adelaide to play in the following weeks. The most likely outcome to me is that we end up 1-4, but 0-5 is pretty likely too.

Our season won't survive that kind of start, and Bevo won't survive a 2023 season where we miss the eight. He's the best coach we've ever had, but all good things must come to an end. Beyond 2023 we're in rebuild territory regardless of our finishing position, just by virtue of the list profile. If we had come out firing and done really well this year, maybe that rebuild could be put on hold till 2025, but that's clearly not the situation. The rebuild starts in 2024, and it should start with a clean slate.

So in short and in response to the OP, I've shifted from backing to sacking Bevo after last night's game. But I would also be devastated as a member if we let the relationship between club and coach sour. This needs to be done with dignity and respect, with a considered and reasonable approach. He's a Bullgod and always will be.

[SonofScray]

A week ago this question seemed to me not worth contemplating, but a week's a long time in footy!

That game last night was nothing short of diabolical. We've all put in our two cents on where our shortcomings are, and based on last night all of those views are 100% true - where do our problems lie?

Well the midfield can't win centre clearances, the whole side's getting outworked on the spread, we're not getting numbers to the contest either, our forwards can't take a grab, we don't have any genuine small forwards, our defenders can't hit targets, we have players going through the midfield rotations who can't find the football, we employ a listless zone, we're not fit enough, the team is too slow, the effort isn't there etc. etc. etc.

I mean... based on last night it's all true. There are a lot of issues and I have no expectation that they can be fixed in five days. That would then give us a 0-3 start to the season with Richmond and Port Adelaide to play in the following weeks. The most likely outcome to me is that we end up 1-4, but 0-5 is pretty likely too.

Our season won't survive that kind of start, and Bevo won't survive a 2023 season where we miss the eight. He's the best coach we've ever had, but all good things must come to an end. Beyond 2023 we're in rebuild territory regardless of our finishing position, just by virtue of the list profile. If we had come out firing and done really well this year, maybe that rebuild could be put on hold till 2025, but that's clearly not the situation. The rebuild starts in 2024, and it should start with a clean slate.

So in short and in response to the OP, I've shifted from backing to sacking Bevo after last night's game. But I would also be devastated as a member if we let the relationship between club and coach sour. This needs to be done with dignity and respect, with a considered and reasonable approach. He's a Bullgod and always will be.
The quicker the better, if we want to protect all parties. It’s going to get toxic at this rate.

[mjp]

The quicker the better, if we want to protect all parties. It’s going to get toxic at this rate.

Why will it get toxic?

Only 3x things are possible right now:

1/. This week, things are worse and all of our worst fears are confirmed.
2/. This week, they are the same or thereabouts and the debate continues.
3/. This week, things are better and the debate continues but there does seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Two weeks ago the pervading view was we were a strong team and had a heap of depth. Nothing really has changed apart from 2x disappointing losses...one of them I suspect a lot of supporters expected. I’m not sure a ‘good’ organisation reacts by removing their coach after two weeks...and if I was the coach I would be thinking what a great opportunity we have to work together and turn things around.

I’m looking at it like this. The players received some feedback following the Melbourne game that they didn’t think was ‘real’ because it was Melbourne and they are spooked by that team. They ‘thought’ everything would be ok vs the saints and expected an easy kill. The feedback will now be more meaningful because ultimately they want to be thought of as good players...

In 3x weeks time when we’re 3-2 and starting to roll all of this might seem a little foolish.

Toxic? Ultimately that’s up to us isn’t it?

[Grantysghost]

Also if we think laterally, 2021 we lost to Hawthorn, Essendon, Port and we lost our leading goal kicker for the finals.
Things can change quickly.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

So what happens if we win next week by 4+ goals?

Bevo still out?

I don't think it'll happen but it's an interesting hypothetical. For me I've lost faith in Bevo but I don't think we gain much sacking him right now. I hate caretaker roles.

[FrediKanoute]

I hear you but I doubt there is anything to be gained from making a quick and reactive move. You need to go through a process.

Lets say we move on Bevo, and just to be clear I'm still right behind him, in the next couple of weeks well you can just about back it in that Lade gets the interim role.

Scenario 1 - The Paul Roos example
We wear a few more losses but by mid season we start to turn it all around and Lade gets on a roll and wins 7 out of the last 8 games we don't make the finals but we've shown enough and some of the younger players have made clear steps.
He has also played his cards perfectly and has gotten in front of the sponsors and the coterie groups and won them over in his interim capacity by conveying his vision for this club.
Going out to the market for interviews to get the best candidate is now increasingly difficult because Lade has significant internal support. You don't want to piss off the major club sponsors and have rumblings in the coterie groups as that is a very difficult scenario for the club to manage and one that I wouldn't be confident we have the skills to counter.

Scenario 2 - The Alan Joyce experience
The club feels like it has to make the move on Bevo as results aren't in line with how we rate the list. As a premiership coach and possibly our most successful one ever it needs to be done in a quick and respectful manner. The problem is that in this industry it's almost impossible to conduct interviews or to canvass candidates without it leaking and then having to manage all the noise it will create and given Bevo isn't a fool he's going to know he is being under minded. That is a poor scenario for us and even if you could somehow make a quick appointment how do you measure if it's the right fit for us? The playing list and the plans around game style and fitness wasn't theirs and you really don't know if they are the right fit because you rushed it.

Scenario 3 - The Rocket Eade example
Despite sustained and impressive results it's become evident that Bevo has some challenges in taking the list and the club any further. As a club you say all the right things of support but you start a review. You pitch it that we may not have the right footy department set up in place and blame it mainly on the AFL's soft cap. That is a great scenario because it's someone else's fault.
You start your review but quickly suspect Bevo's done his best and a change is required. You can call in experts like Buckley to get his opinions about our footy department set-up and guess what you can also gauge if he is genuinely someone you might be interested in under the guise that he's a consultant who is helping us out.
As the weeks drag on and reviews are never quick, a call to Cameron or Gia can be made just to see if they might be interested. You can probably manage that scenario and keep it quiet because they are reading the play. By round 17 or so you announce you are making a change and Bevo steps away handing the keys to Lade who can't do any real damage but who might impress.
You have also built a list of candidates that you can start working with and if Bevo was to suspect he was in a losing battle by the middle of the season and he jumps early then the club thanks him for his outstanding journey and wishes him all the best.

As fans and supporters we might have to suck it up for a year but scenario 3 works the best in my opinion in getting the appointment right. I hope it never gets to that stage but making change for change sake is a mugs game.

I respect completely what you are saying and it makes sense, BUT, if Bevo is not going to take the players any further, if he has lost the group, or if he has got the preseason and game plan wrong then you make change now, no matter the consequences. Yes you run the risk of Lade being given the keys and doing a great interim job but falling when the pressure is on, but a strong club manages that. Sure you run the risk that it gets ugly and you undermine our 2nd Premiership coach, but as Ross Lyon and StKilda have shown, you have to be strong enough to make the tough decisions.

Speaking from personal experience because I am in the equivalent of the Lade situation, my boss has left, I've been running the team and effectively doing his job for the last 4 months. Everyone assumes that I'll be given the keys to the castle. Everyone but me that is. It would be nice and I know I can do the job, but that is not necessarily what management want and at some point in the next 3 to 6 months they will come up for air and make a call. Tough on me probably, but hey that is what tough decisions are all about. You make the RIGHT decision and not the EASY decision.

I also want to say that I am not in the sack Bevo tomorrow camp. I think he can turn this around, but a 0-5 start with no more than half a quarter of decent football played in each game would move me to the otherside.

[Danjul]

Also if we think laterally, 2021 we lost to Hawthorn, Essendon, Port and we lost our leading goal kicker for the finals.
Things can change quickly.
Who played in those winning finals teams? Anyone that was given the boot?

[Dry Rot]

Didn't we recently have a review? What happened with that? What were the results?

[Grantysghost]

Who played in those winning finals teams? Anyone that was given the boot?

It's a trap!

[bulldogtragic]

Who played in those winning finals teams? Anyone that was given the boot?

Lew Young. Schache. Hunter. Cordy (in effect). Are they the ones?

[GVGjr]

I respect completely what you are saying and it makes sense, BUT, if Bevo is not going to take the players any further, if he has lost the group, or if he has got the preseason and game plan wrong then you make change now, no matter the consequences. Yes you run the risk of Lade being given the keys and doing a great interim job but falling when the pressure is on, but a strong club manages that. Sure you run the risk that it gets ugly and you undermine our 2nd Premiership coach, but as Ross Lyon and StKilda have shown, you have to be strong enough to make the tough decisions.


I also want to say that I am not in the sack Bevo tomorrow camp. I think he can turn this around, but a 0-5 start with no more than half a quarter of decent football played in each game would move me to the otherside.

Lets go through the main crux of your assumption in that Bevo has lost the group because I don't feel that can be confirmed in any way. Coaches and their clubs can still win games even if there is plenty of tension between the coach and some of the players.
You can also lose games closely and there be tension between the coaches and players.
The results so far have been awful and no one can deny it because the scoreboard and the vision supports it but I can't say I've seen anything to suggest the players or coaches aren't invested. It's an often used and a catchy phrase when clubs are challenged but I'd really like for someone to point out why they think that has happened. Why has the coach apparently lost the players?

I'm not against making change but making a quick and reactive one that shits on a coach that has got us to two Grand Finals ideally needs to be done professionally and be fact based rather than with a mindset that he must go and anyone else is preferential.

I'd like us to start a review to identify why we are struggling for effort and why the game plan that we trained for all summer hasn't been or can't be implemented.

Of course there is a real chance Lade could be given the role at some time during the season but we owe it ourselves to work out what the challenges are and if it's significantly on Bevo that necessitates a need to make a move or not.

[Danjul]

It's a trap!
The real question is

why did we lose those 3 games and fall out of the four ?

Hawks won hitouts 55 to 15
Essendon won hitouts 53 to 33 ? 8 scores from centre bounce in a game we otherwise controlled.
port won hitouts 52 to 18

these might have been a factor.

still happening ? every game lately is simply a recurring nightmare.

and I suspect for the players too.

[Danjul]

Lew Young. Schache. Hunter. Cordy (in effect). Are they the ones?
Jones ( short term) and Baker seem to be good replacements. But is it a net loss we haven't fully covered. I was impressed with Cordy last night.

[Vred]

Didn't we recently have a review? What happened with that? What were the results?

Internal review with no results of it listed. It's like the police reviewing themselves when something is wrong ''?ll good nothing to see here'' 99% of the time.

We seriously need external eyes looking in at us at the moment, get a feeling they'd uncover alot that is getting ignored/hidden because of the boys-club in the football department.

[FrediKanoute]

Lets go through the main crux of your assumption in that Bevo has lost the group because I don't feel that can be confirmed in any way. Coaches and their clubs can still win games even if there is plenty of tension between the coach and some of the players.
You can also lose games closely and there be tension between the coaches and players.
The results so far have been awful and no one can deny it because the scoreboard and the vision supports it but I can't say I've seen anything to suggest the players or coaches aren't invested. It's an often used and a catchy phrase when clubs are challenged but I'd really like for someone to point out why they think that has happened. Why has the coach apparently lost the players?

I'm not against making change but making a quick and reactive one that shits on a coach that has got us to two Grand Finals ideally needs to be done professionally and be fact based rather than with a mindset that he must go and anyone else is preferential.

I'd like us to start a review to identify why we are struggling for effort and why the game plan that we trained for all summer hasn't been or can't be implemented.

Of course there is a real chance Lade could be given the role at some time during the season but we owe it ourselves to work out what the challenges are and if it's significantly on Bevo that necessitates a need to make a move or not.

The message is getting stale. The game plan is stale. The effort is stale. Call it what you like, but on evidence to date the coach isn't getting the performance from the team that is expected. Now either the players are not that good or the game plan sucks or the coach's tactics are wrong or the coach's message is not getting through.

I don't think a review is the answer, especially not mid-season. I would be though asking Bevo directly what he thinks the problem is and whether he has a solution. I'd then be setting Bevo some very clear criteria against which the next 4 weeks is going to measured - beyond win-loss, but maybe tied to some KPI's that Bevo has identified as important for the team and the strategy that they are employing.

The club can then assess a) whether the tactics if executed correctly can win games (because if we hit the KPI everyweek for 4 weeks and get creamed then the answer is no); or b) that the players are not capable of hitting the KPI's. These tell us different things, and should lead to different outcomes.

The fact he is a coach that has broken our Premiership drought and taken us to a 2nd GF is nice, but history doesn't buy you much credit. 2016 bought him 4 years; 2021 has bought him 2 at best. The club has to be concerned. Losing to Melbourne by a kick is a loss, but you can spin it as an unlucky bounce; making a spirited comeback, but not quite getting over against an improved StKilda side is disappointed and you can again spin that. What the Doggies have served up to date is beyond rubbish. on curent form they would likely lose to the Hawks.

[Sedat]

Whether or not you are in the 'Sack Bevo' or 'Back Bevo' camp (and there has been some great discussion and analysis on both sides), Saturday night's unexpected capitulation against a team decimated by injuries and not expected to contend this year will ultimately be a positive thing either way - the entire organisation is officially on notice, we are fairly and squarely in the spotlight and we will be playing right on the edge (as we should have been from R1, but better 2 weeks late than never).

FWIW I'm still in the 'Back Bevo' camp and I expect significant improvement from the playing group starting this Thursday night. If we don't respond as a professional organisation worth its salt should, then there will not be an option other than to make a nuclear change at some stage this season. But I would like to see a bigger sample size than 2 weeks, and TBH Bevo deserves that opportunity (as do the players).

To quote Ross the Boss, failure is feedback. We have been given a valuable 2 week lesson, and it's up to the players and MC to roll the sleeves up and get on with the business of becoming the best version of the Bulldogs they can be.

[Bulldog4life]

Interesting I heard Lyon say his current game plan is based on the 6-6-6 rule. If that wasn't there his game plan would be more defensive....or words to the effect. He was on AFL360. Anyone else hear him?

[MrMahatma]

Interesting I heard Lyon say his current game plan is based on the 6-6-6 rule. If that wasn't there his game plan would be more defensive....or words to the effect. He was on AFL360. Anyone else hear him?

Normally watch all the footy programs all week, but am avoiding them for the most part this week. Needed a bit of a cleanse after the past 2 weeks.

[1eyedog]

Normally watch all the footy programs all week, but am avoiding them for the most part this week. Needed a bit of a cleanse after the past 2 weeks.

We've been given our right whack in the media this week which I'm ok with.

[mjp]

Normally watch all the footy programs all week, but am avoiding them for the most part this week. Needed a bit of a cleanse after the past 2 weeks.

Same - it's just depressing when we are losing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

SOS, sharpen it and yield it.

Interesting walking out of the ground there were quite a lot of vocal supporters wanting Bevo out.

[bulldogtragic]

SOS, sharpen it and yield it.

Interesting walking out of the ground there were quite a lot of vocal supporters wanting Bevo out.

We’ve wasted this era. Flag amazing. 2021 crazy. All this talent and really we’ve blown our shot at continued success. But he’s not going anywhere so let’s embrace crazy selections, passive coaching, skills backward, players out of position and players seemingly playing without heart on and off for very limited real success.

What are we gunna do. Throw everything at three time premiership coach Damien Hardwick?

[JanLorMill]

We?ve wasted this era. Flag amazing. 2021 crazy. All this talent and really we?ve blown our shot at continued success. But he?s not going anywhere so let?s embrace crazy selections, passive coaching, skills backward, players out of position and players seemingly playing without heart on and off for very limited real success.

What are we gunna do. Throw everything at three time premiership coach Damien Hardwick?
Not sure it could happen, Hardwick is Bevo?s mate from Hawthorn?

[whythelongface]

We?ve wasted this era. Flag amazing. 2021 crazy. All this talent and really we?ve blown our shot at continued success. But he?s not going anywhere so let?s embrace crazy selections, passive coaching, skills backward, players out of position and players seemingly playing without heart on and off for very limited real success.

What are we gunna do. Throw everything at three time premiership coach Damien Hardwick?

You can say that about most teams right. It is difficult to win a premiership let alone multiple. I am just glad we have won one in my lifetime. Sure we have had talented players but maybe not as talented as we think. We have a handful of really great players but also a lot of average ones. One flag and one GF is just about right for whom we have had on our list.

[macca]

Hardwick is taking a break, i doubt it, he won't be back for 24 months .

We should get someone who can be the bad cop and drive improvement and hard edge into the team.

When the chips are down, and your playing poorly, how do you cover the gap between your good and bad days ?

Bring Clarko in just for something different.

[bulldogtragic]

You can say that about most teams right. It is difficult to win a premiership let alone multiple. I am just glad we have won one in my lifetime. Sure we have had talented players but maybe not as talented as we think. We have a handful of really great players but also a lot of average ones. One flag and one GF is just about right for whom we have had on our list.

That is nice, a flag. But we’ve underperformed expectations.

[jeemak]

That is nice, a flag. But we’ve underperformed expectations.

Were expectations realistic? We've had issues with our list for years, how many finals series and grand finals did we seriously expect to make in lieu of that?

I get the frustration with him, but we've got club level issues beyond Luke Beveridge. List management and recruitment being one of them.

[whythelongface]

That is nice, a flag. But we’ve underperformed expectations.

Maybe we have over rated our list over the years and we aren’t actually that good. Our list seems to have some very good players but lots of average ones as well. I don’t think we have underperformed- we just aren’t that good.

[bulldogtragic]

Were expectations realistic? We've had issues with our list for years, how many finals series and grand finals did we seriously expect to make in lieu of that?

I get the frustration with him, but we've got club level issues beyond Luke Beveridge. List management and recruitment being one of them.

My comment is more umbrella. The world was our oyster in 2016. And like the movie Casino, we had it all and then we ****ed it all up.

[whythelongface]

My comment is more umbrella. The world was our oyster in 2016. And like the movie Casino, we had it all and then we ****ed it all up.

Even our list in 2016 wasn’t that great. Hindsight is wonderful but Hamling, Roberts, Cordy, Dahlhaus and a few others really wasn’t anything special. We played a month of exceptional footy that was it. I had high expectations but other teams were better and we just ended being mediocre

[bulldogtragic]

Even our list in 2016 wasn’t that great. Hindsight is wonderful but Hamling, Roberts, Cordy, Dahlhaus and a few others really wasn’t anything special. We played a month of exceptional footy that was it. I had high expectations but other teams were better and we just ended being mediocre

We had a glut of AA players. Couldn’t form them into a side though. Either way, rebuild or live in Groundhog Day.

[macca]

Even our list in 2016 wasn?t that great. Hindsight is wonderful but Hamling, Roberts, Cordy, Dahlhaus and a few others really wasn?t anything special. We played a month of exceptional footy that was it. I had high expectations but other teams were better and we just ended being mediocre

We had a hard edge to our team. The Cordy knee was working to timing perfection. Picken and Clay Smith were tackling and trapping the ball forward.

Plenty of depth in VFL, Jongy and Suckling were back from injury

[SonofScray]

We simply have to make a change and the sooner, the better. My fair minded view is we call it at the end of the year, regardless of what happens. Top 4 is gone now, that was my expectation, that would have been the requisite improvement. My less than fair minded view is that every day since the final siren of R2 has been a day wasted.

It’ll disrupt things and there’s a risk we go backwards, but at the moment we’ve got a capable group who are losing in predictable ways, have offered the league a clear blue print for how to beat us and also actively taking steps to help them out by inaccurate, in efficient goal kicking.

There’s been nothing about us, even in the run of good form that has fanned the embers of hope. No one is doing anything special. Nothing to inspire belief in the fans.

[FrediKanoute]

We are a game and % outside the top 4 (yes the Lions have a game in hand). Its not time to throw in the towel just yet.

I said at the start of the season that we will do as well as the match committee allows us to do. Balance - the sides from Round 2 up to Round 9/10 had balance. injuries and selections to replace those injuries has f*cked up the balance. Get the balance back between run and height.

[Bulldog Joe]

Maybe we have over rated our list over the years and we aren?t actually that good. Our list seems to have some very good players but lots of average ones as well. I don?t think we have underperformed- we just aren?t that good.

We keep making excuses.

Is it that we don't believe in ourselves and feel more comfortable making up the numbers.

The coach is responsible for the game plan and player buy in to that.

Why haven't we developed and maintained a plan that suits the list.

We blame the midfielders for not defending, but they must also be frustrated by the lack of forward cohesion.

Why does our plan have every forward attacking the same aerial contest?

Why do we continually clog our own forward space and give that space to the opposition on turnover?

[SonofScray]

The axe is back out and I am prepared to swing it now.

Seen enough. The talent is there. The belief isn’t.

[angelopetraglia]

The axe is back out and I am prepared to swing it now.

Seen enough. The talent is there. The belief isn’t.

Do you think we have the same talent as Port in the midfield. I don't.

Boak. Wines. JHF. Rozee. Butters. >>>>>>>>> Bont. Libba. Smith. Treloar. Macrae.

I would take Port's midfield. Every day and twice on Sunday.

[jeemak]

The axe is back out and I am prepared to swing it now.

Seen enough. The talent is there. The belief isn?t.

Get your endorphin release, go for it. Just don't ask what we do next once it's done.

What's the next thing you'd do after you swung the axe? Put Lade in charge? Pad out the rest of the year and try and improve the draft position, essentially going tits up and signally a rebuild or hoping for a Craig Macrae to pop up - whilst fearing a Mark Neeld might?

Does a new coach kick Marra's and Lobb's first quarter chances for them? Jacko seems to be able to slot goals when he has a chance, reckon that's pure skill, or the coach's messages getting through to him, or do you reckon he's a pro that takes responsibility for his output and skill level?

Matthias Corman has a message and question for you:


https://fb.watch/l2XYVWOD7T/

Will you know what to do, or will you be wibble wobble wibble wobble jelly on a plate?

[bornadog]

Get your endorphin release, go for it. Just don't ask what we do next once it's done.

What's the next thing you'd do after you swung the axe? Put Lade in charge? Pad out the rest of the year and try and improve the draft position, essentially going tits up and signally a rebuild or hoping for a Craig Macrae to pop up - whilst fearing a Mark Neeld might?

Does a new coach kick Marra's and Lobb's first quarter chances for them? Jacko seems to be able to slot goals when he has a chance, reckon that's pure skill, or the coach's messages getting through to him, or do you reckon he's a pro that takes responsibility for his output and skill level?

Matthias Corman has a message and question for you:


https://fb.watch/l2XYVWOD7T/

Will you know what to do, or will you be wibble wobble wibble wobble jelly on a plate?

Much easier to blame the coach and not have a solution.

I don't mind posters having a go at coaches and players, but what I would love is a solution to our problems, and I mean a solution right now as you say. Who comes, in? How do we change our game plan, who do we move around, etc etc.

I haven't seen the last 3 games, but from stats, I can see we have alot of the ball. We had 70 more disposals and smashed them at Stoppages yet we lost.

Problems/Suggested solutions

* I don't think we can play Keath, Bruce and Jones as big backs. Play Two only and bring in a Cleary or Crozier type (till Richards is back)

* Arty and JOD need to go back to VFL and learn their trade.

* We have to re think JUH, Naughton and Lobb's roles. Naughton to move up the ground to CHF, and make Lobb the main FF and JUH his assistant till he gets stronger and more mature.

* We have to stop bombing the ball into the 50.

* We need to take our chances and move the ball quickly through the corridor.

* The mids are getting plenty of the ball and creating opportunities up forward, but we aren't captialising

[jeemak]

Much easier to blame the coach and not have a solution.

I don't mind posters having a go at coaches and players, but what I would love is a solution to our problems, and I mean a solution right now as you say. Who comes, in? How do we change our game plan, who do we move around, etc etc.

I haven't seen the last 3 games, but from stats, I can see we have alot of the ball. We had 70 more disposals and smashed them at Stoppages yet we lost.

Problems/Suggested solutions

* I don't think we can play Keath, Bruce and Jones as big backs. Play Two only and bring in a Cleary or Crozier type (till Richards is back)

* Arty and JOD need to go back to VFL and learn their trade.

* We have to re think JUH, Naughton and Lobb's roles. Naughton to move up the ground to CHF, and make Lobb the main FF and JUH his assistant till he gets stronger and more mature.

* We have to stop bombing the ball into the 50.

* We need to take our chances and move the ball quickly through the corridor.

* The mids are getting plenty of the ball and creating opportunities up forward, but we aren't captialising

Sorry, I'm sure they're fine points you're making but I keep re-watching and getting mesmerised by the Matthias Corman clip about jelly on a plate - and I forget them.

[bornadog]

Sorry, I'm sure they're fine points you're making but I keep re-watching and getting mesmerised by the Matthias Corman clip about jelly on a plate - and I forget them.

Very Funny

[SonofScray]

Step him down, put Lade in for the remainder of the season. Go through the process.

I’ve not wobbled once.

[JanLorMill]

Do you think we have the same talent as Port in the midfield. I don't.

Boak. Wines. JHF. Rozee. Butters. >>>>>>>>> Bont. Libba. Smith. Treloar. Macrae.

I would take Port's midfield. Every day and twice on Sunday.
Why does one no add the ruck when quoting the midfield as he is an integral part?
English is way more talented than Lycett but that?s not the problem. Also Bont at 100% is better than anyone at port. Wines and Boak are aging but experienced and still very hard at it. Smith is talented but way off displaying it.

[1eyedog]

Why does one no add the ruck when quoting the midfield as he is an integral part?
English is way more talented than Lycett but that?s not the problem. Also Bont at 100% is better than anyone at port. Wines and Boak are aging but experienced and still very hard at it. Smith is talented but way off displaying it.

Butters is going past Bont.

[Hotdog60]

I 've just worked out the cause of our form slump BAD hasn't been at the last three games it's time for you to stop being selfish you know its all about the team and for you to come home.

[EasternWest]

Get your endorphin release, go for it. Just don't ask what we do next once it's done.

What's the next thing you'd do after you swung the axe? Put Lade in charge? Pad out the rest of the year and try and improve the draft position, essentially going tits up and signally a rebuild or hoping for a Craig Macrae to pop up - whilst fearing a Mark Neeld might?

Does a new coach kick Marra's and Lobb's first quarter chances for them? Jacko seems to be able to slot goals when he has a chance, reckon that's pure skill, or the coach's messages getting through to him, or do you reckon he's a pro that takes responsibility for his output and skill level?

Matthias Corman has a message and question for you:


https://fb.watch/l2XYVWOD7T/

Will you know what to do, or will you be wibble wobble wibble wobble jelly on a plate?

Thank you for the salient reminder of why I hate politics and all politicians.

[Grantysghost]

Butters is going past Bont.

I was in awe of some of his work. He’s like a bloody terrier when he doesn’t have it, hits the contest at full speed and pulls off some incredible disposal. Can kick at angles going full tilt.

Superstar a pleasure to watch.

[JanLorMill]

Butters is going past Bont.
Not if Bont was fit

[EasternWest]

Not if Bont was fit

Hard to say as their strengths lie in different areas. Butters is a freakishly good athlete though and has great vision and touch.

[Vred]

Bevo will step down if we don’t make finals. Have that from someone within the 4 walls.

[JanLorMill]

Bevo will step down if we don’t make finals. Have that from someone within the 4 walls.
That means we will scrape into finals again. If Bevo resigns, then the president, CEO and head of football should follow.

[Vred]

That means we will scrape into finals again. If Bevo resigns, then the president, CEO and head of football should follow.

my gut feeling is he’ll step down if we have a bad run of games leading upto finals.

But I do agree, we need a huge personal change within the football department, and I’d like to see a more ruthless CEO/ President who doesn’t want to embrace mediocrity like we always seemingly do.

[JanLorMill]

Gordon needs a monument but he was on the front foot when we performed poorly or the coach needed defending. Where is KWW? Ameet seems like a nice bloke but is he tough enough?

[macca]

my gut feeling is he’ll step down if we have a bad run of games leading upto finals.

But I do agree, we need a huge personal change within the football department, and I’d like to see a more ruthless CEO/ President who doesn’t want to embrace mediocrity like we always seemingly do.

Can we pleaassee get a kicking coach ?

[Bulldog Joe]

Much easier to blame the coach and not have a solution.

I don't mind posters having a go at coaches and players, but what I would love is a solution to our problems, and I mean a solution right now as you say. Who comes, in? How do we change our game plan, who do we move around, etc etc.

I haven't seen the last 3 games, but from stats, I can see we have alot of the ball. We had 70 more disposals and smashed them at Stoppages yet we lost.

Problems/Suggested solutions

* I don't think we can play Keath, Bruce and Jones as big backs. Play Two only and bring in a Cleary or Crozier type (till Richards is back) I suggest the 3 talls aren't the issue although Bruce had a bad night and I would have preferred Gardner

* Arty and JOD need to go back to VFL and learn their trade.
We have known this for weeks but the selection is on the coach

* We have to re think JUH, Naughton and Lobb's roles. Naughton to move up the ground to CHF, and make Lobb the main FF and JUH his assistant till he gets stronger and more mature. We actually have to operate a more cohesive forward line and it has been an issue regardless of personnel. We continue to have all our forwards getting in each others way. Naughton takes an occasional pack mark but he is so much better with a run at it not impeded by a team-mate

* We have to stop bombing the ball into the 50.
Well if our forwards were instructed to lead and we had some semblance of an open forward line we mightn't have to bomb it in.

* We need to take our chances and move the ball quickly through the corridor.
Of course we need to take chances, but we can't move it quickly when there is nobody forward to move it to.

* The mids are getting plenty of the ball and creating opportunities up forward, but we aren't captialising

I have bolded answers to your points.

We need a much better plan.

[Scorlibo]

* We have to stop bombing the ball into the 50.


To this point and building on Bulldog Joe's response - I made a point of watching the forward line last night and they are simply not moving. They all stand and point. There is only one situation where they look capable of creating space and that is along the boundary, for a lead to the pocket. In the first quarter Naughton got the mark on a lead and JUH later in the game, both deep in the pocket.

I actually thought that it looked as if the mids were working with a clear instruction to not be wasteful of the ball coming inside fifty. It ended up costing us on a few occasions through overuse of the football. At the end of the day you can't take an option that isn't there.

There is a certain team ethic involved in busting your gut to provide an option, knowing that you might not get the footy, and not enough of our players do this consistently. Jack Macrae does it, Libba does it. Jamarra probably the best at it in the forward half. They need some mates.

[anfo27]

Do you think we have the same talent as Port in the midfield. I don't.

Boak. Wines. JHF. Rozee. Butters. >>>>>>>>> Bont. Libba. Smith. Treloar. Macrae.

I would take Port's midfield. Every day and twice on Sunday.

You're easily seduced. We got smashed in the hit outs last night but our boys smashed those supremely talented Port boys in clearances. I would take Bont & Libba not only over Ports 5 but any other mids in the comp. Bont is playing injured too.

[1eyedog]

We do our forwards no favours with the lack of speed on the ball entering F50 that's for sure.

Naughton is not a natural forward, he's just not. He's hitting the scoreboard off the back of raw talent alone. He is dangerous though so will still take the oppos best KD. Move him up the ground he actually congests the forward line because he attracts a crowd, but he's just not moving. Seems in limbo.

Lobb is purely a get out of jail option only as he is unlikely to be outmarked. Been providing nothing else this season. No idea what to do with him. VFL?

Our only two forwards are Weightman and Jamarra so give them space. If we can open things up a bit put Arty or West down there. Also, if we're stuck on Bruce get him forward as well and get him moving.

[bornadog]

I have bolded answers to your points.

We need a much better plan.

Excellent. Talking Solutions is a better discussion.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Not if Bont was fit

It is hard not to rate Liberatore in similar class. Another excellent game by Libba against PA.

[Go_Dogs]

It is hard not to rate Liberatore in similar class. Another excellent game by Libba against PA.

Agree. I was thinking about where he?ll stand at the end of his career in Bulldog terms, he?s fast approaching one of our 20 greatest players and potentially a bit higher given his consistency and some of the accolades not to mention injuries overcome.




Back on the thread topic. I?m a huge Bevo supporter and believer, however I am able to see that for what we have on our list we have underachieved and should have more in the way of top 4 finishes and finals wins. 2016 cannot be erased, but we?re entering a cross roads and we have maybe 1-2 years where we can win and a fresh perspective may do us wonders. Maybe I?m overselling our list though.

If Bevo can get the increments that he feels puts us on the top rung - great, stick with him. If he can?t?

[macca]

I am going to keep my faith in Bevo
We are missing a few pieces on the chessboard:
1. A proper fwd coach who can teach our players leading pattern and not spoil each other in same pack mark . Crumbing and when to stay down and tap to in favour space . We are too Predictable leading into fwd and losing it without any fwd pressure . There is a damning stat that last 3 games oppositions has scored points : 58,60,62 against us on rebounds, yes that is 10 goals a game . Which says our delivery into 50 is poor , leading patterns none existent and fwd pressure to keep the ball is just putrid
2. Training for set shots under fatigue
3. Get a few players back from injury or just play the kids
4. Missing a big body midfield , key back man.
5. Throw out this high possession game exhausting game plan . Yes players fumble when they are exhausted

For heaven sack , Essendon are threatening to finish above us this season.

[bornadog]

Although we have a talented squad we still have issues with a solid KPD. Jones has been good but the rest are a bit iffy. Keath is not what he was, Gardner makes a lot of errors, Bruce is actually just ok but also new to the role.

As for the forward line, other than Lobb, the rest are all young and still learning their trade, plus we don't have a genuine small forward that can kick 35 t0 40 goals a year. Weightman plays like a mid size, Arty is still learning.

Some how Bevo has to cobble together a strong backline and hope the forwards can take their opportunities and kick goals. Talk of sacking Bevo is madness.

[JanLorMill]

Talk of sacking Bevo is madness.
Yes he should walk if we don?t make the 8. Given our aim was a top 4 finish, we can scrap into 8 and the make the prelim at worst otherwise the season is a failure.
If we didn?t prematurely re sign him pre season we could easily not just renewed him if things went bad. Yes he would have been under pressure but he is under pressure now. That model seems be working to well at Port.
Can you seriously see improvement next year if we miss our objectives this season and very little changes into next year?

[GVGjr]

Yes he should walk if we don’t make the 8. Given our aim was a top 4 finish, we can scrap into 8 and the make the prelim at worst otherwise the season is a failure. If didn’t stupidly re sign pre season we could easily not just renewed him. Yes he would have been under pressure but he is under pressure now.
Can you seriously see improvement next year if miss our objectives this season and very little changes into next year?

You make some good points but it's not quite as black and white as that.
The club has to make the 8 and top 4 looks a more difficult challenge now.
We also need to win at least one game in the finals. Outside of the two GF years we haven't won a final under Bevo.
And finally we need to be prepared to make some changes to the list not continue to tinker around the edges as we have done in recent years.

We are still capable of playing some brilliant football and Bevo is in my opinion the best coaching option.
I look at what Hinkley is achieving at Port at the moment and it looks like he is coaching at his best and this is after 11 years at the club.
There are some other aspects that concern me with Bevo but they're more around list management and selection integrity than his actual coaching. The challenge for the club is how they can restore a better balance in those areas and get Bevo on board with it.

Changing coaches is easy enough to do, a lot of clubs go down that road but most find getting a better result can be vastly harder to achieve.

[macca]

You make some good points but it's not quite as black and white as that.
The club has to make the 8 and top 4 looks a more difficult challenge now.
We also need to win at least one game in the finals. Outside of the two GF years we haven't won a final under Bevo.
And finally we need to be prepared to make some changes to the list not continue to tinker around the edges as we have done in recent years.

We are still capable of playing some brilliant football and Bevo is in my opinion the best coaching option.
I look at what Hinkley is achieving at Port at the moment and it looks like he is coaching at his best and this is after 11 years at the club.
There are some other aspects that concern me with Bevo but they're more around list management and selection integrity than his actual coaching. The challenge for the club is how they can restore a better balance in those areas.
Changing coaches is easy enough to do, getting a better result can be vastly harder.

Hinkley after game press conference spoke about understanding about THEIR footy , what makes their club click, their processes , player stengths and giving them the full support . He seems a man that is relieved to be getting the support and the results go his away. The players are clearly engaged and playing for each other . Its good to see glimmer of a smile on Hinkley.. in a results driven industry that has taken many scalps

I wonder how much HONEST conversations were had and ACTION to implement them ? Its evident that its working , with Port sitting in top 2 after 13 rounds , and they have beaten most of the teams in the top 8

[JanLorMill]

List management or selection integrity isn’t suddenly going to get better if nothing changes. If it produced results no one would complain. It was kind of cute when we were winning but its more than frustrating and hopeless now.
We can argue it’s importance or whether it’s a major part of a coaches role or not too. Match day is, has Bevo improved or even maintained his standards there? One example there is being out coached continually by Geelong and Scott. We sacked Wheeler just for that sort of problem.

I highly doubt we go hard at list changes given we just signed an often injured fringe player (VDM) for 2 extra years.

[1eyedog]

Bevo will step down if we don?t make finals. Have that from someone within the 4 walls.

I think that's the right call. He's had longer to develop the list chock full of top end talent and Brad Scott has just gone past him in terms of output. Essendon would kill is now if we played them at the G.

I love Bevo but I've never been closer to wanting change than this year. I no longer believe he is the man to lead us forward. We have had too many sub-par seasons and I will be forever grateful for 2016 and the compromised 2021 season but we can't keep under-achieving and limp into finals and then hope to string 2 or 3 good games together, which is essentially what has happened. It's failed and we have been eliminated week 1 more times than not.

My true belief, given the quality of the list and I do think it's a quality list, is that the players raw abilities are largely what has even gotten us into a position to play finals. As for Bevo, the game plan is sour, the selections are dumb and a lack of flexibility on game day is concerning. Thanks for 2016 Bevo but I'd like some fresh eyes on our list now. I know it's hard to break up what has been a beautiful reasonship but I feel it's time we moved on. I don't think we have anything to lose we've been limping into finals ever since 2016 and failing.

We have too many good players to keep accepting what we keep dishing up game after game. Never have we finished top 4 and that is damning.

[Topdog]

I've gone into the we need a change section of the crowd.

Feels wrong to sack Bevo but I am convinced his game style is our main problem.

Everything we do looks like such hard work and the excuses about young forwards doesnt wash with me.

Think Bevo would benefit greatly from a year away from the game.

[Critter]

I have often thought that the secret of people who we celebrate as great coaches is the quality of their support staff. Look at Richmond, where Hardwicke was struggling to the point of dismissal and along comes Leppitsch and McRae to handle the game plan and tactical stuff, leaving him to do the touchy/feely cuddly stuff. Bingo, Hardwicke becomes an instant guru. Richmond have fantastic success.

Then I think of the Dogs, and the quality, or not, of Beveridge's support staff over the years. How then would Beveridge have benefitted from A-Grade assistants? Well, you'd think. But when I think of the man himself - the well-developed ego and stubbornness displayed at press conferences and the match day bewilderment and inaction too often shown when things start going wrong - I doubt he would willingly cede control to others. Particularly, game plan and team selection. His shtick seems to be continual rearrangement of the deck chairs

So, I fear that with Bevo, what we're going to get is what we've been getting and that, regrettably, we'll look back at this period as a wasted opportunity.

[mjp]

My true belief, given the quality of the list and I do think it's a quality list,


I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

[1eyedog]

I have often thought that the secret of people who we celebrate as great coaches is the quality of their support staff. Look at Richmond, where Hardwicke was struggling to the point of dismissal and along comes Leppitsch and McRae to handle the game plan and tactical stuff, leaving him to do the touchy/feely cuddly stuff. Bingo, Hardwicke becomes an instant guru. Richmond have fantastic success.

Then I think of the Dogs, and the quality, or not, of Beveridge's support staff over the years. How then would Beveridge have benefitted from A-Grade assistants? Well, you'd think. But when I think of the man himself - the well-developed ego and stubbornness displayed at press conferences and the match day bewilderment and inaction too often shown when things start going wrong - I doubt he would willingly cede control to others. Particularly, game plan and team selection. His shtick seems to be continual rearrangement of the deck chairs

So, I fear that with Bevo, what we're going to get is what we've been getting and that, regrettably, we'll look back at this period as a wasted opportunity.

100% agreed re. support staff. I feel that Bevo has been resistant to big names in the coaches box and I'm not sure why. I look at other boxes and see quality. Sydney have some very experienced assistants as does St Kilda. I actually believe outside of bringing in Lade we've had the least experienced box in the comp post-Covid.

[SonofScray]

I've gone into the we need a change section of the crowd.

Feels wrong to sack Bevo but I am convinced his game style is our main problem.

Everything we do looks like such hard work and the excuses about young forwards doesnt wash with me.

Think Bevo would benefit greatly from a year away from the game.

Here’s the thing, Bevo could and possibly will continue to have a successful career as a coach beyond his time with us, if he wanted. He is a good coach. And has been a good coach for us.

They all have a used by date with the clubs they coach at. Bevo’s is more a best before date.

[josie]

100% agree with lack of experienced coaches.

To me the elevation of a rookie (O?Donnell) before other vfl/afl players reeks of desperation. And the fact Bevo has belligerently stuck with it, last week costing two direct goals, is symptomatic of our problems. Surely there would be some disgruntled players who have put in consistent efforts and these weird decisions put more pressure on them if they are given a senior game, knowing Bevo has his faves who continue to be given games when their repeated form at senior level is average (I?m being generous) and stay on the list too long. Are there other clubs that have such repeated puzzling selection and player retention decisions?

[Bulldog Joe]

Although we have a talented squad we still have issues with a solid KPD. Jones has been good but the rest are a bit iffy. Keath is not what he was, Gardner makes a lot of errors, Bruce is actually just ok but also new to the role.

As for the forward line, other than Lobb, the rest are all young and still learning their trade, plus we don't have a genuine small forward that can kick 35 t0 40 goals a year. Weightman plays like a mid size, Arty is still learning.

Some how Bevo has to cobble together a strong backline and hope the forwards can take their opportunities and kick goals. Talk of sacking Bevo is madness.

We can't continue to make excuses.

The forward line has been dysfunctional for a long time. We should have more than hope that the forwards can take opportunities. The system should make it easier to create and maximise opportunities.

If the coach isn't the person responsible, who is?

Madness is actually continuing to do the same thing with expectation of a different result.

[1eyedog]

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

I feel like the line items in your post could be applied to nearly every club. Look at St. Kilda's list and the kids at Essendon. You think our list is to blame for the poor performances?

You've circled 10 AA level superstars (not including L Jones who has been playing at that level as well) and some high draft developing kids who have shown a fair bit. What teams roll out half a squad of AA level players?

Also, its irrelevant that other mid-round players have exceeded expectations they are what they are and it just further highlights my point.

No doubt we're underachieving we are in very real danger of missing the 8 this year we are that untrustworthy.

I'm tired of accepting mediocrity we should be demanding better.

[JanLorMill]

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!
It is the general consensus in the football world.
Yes we drop off heaps after our top liners but I would some of that is our own doing through selections and list management
What is it like in comparison to other teams?
Essendon, St kilda and the Crows all sit above us but I believe are less talented.

[Grantysghost]

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:

Duryea - Near the end, replacement level defender.
Jones - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (vaccine).
Keath - Cricket transfer recruited from Adelaide, replacement level tall defender.
Dale - AA level running defender
Bruce - 30+ year old recruit who missed 12-months of footy (ACL) and has totally changed roles.
Vandermeer - Mid round draft pick who has been tried in multiple roles.
Scott - Mature age rookie - replacement level at best.
Bontempelli - Superstar
Williams - Mid round draft pick. Having a better career than could have been expected.
West - Father son still battling for games 4-years (or 5 years) in. Replacement level at best.
Naughton - AA Level superstar.
Treloar - AA Level superstar
Weightman - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Ugle-Hagan - High draft pick who has delivered on that promise. Still developing.
Lobb - Mature age player now at his 3rd club. He's tall. Replacement level second ruck/forward (hard role to fill)
English - 2nd tier ruck
Daniel - AA level player
Liberatore - AA level player
Smith - AA level player
Macrae - AA Level player
O'Donnell - Categorie b rookie who's been playing footy for 5 minutes.
Jones (A) - Mid round draft pick who is playing accordingly. Still developing.

There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

English 3rd tier.

[josie]

I don’t want Bevo sacked. I do want him to make logical, responsible decisions. And decent list turnover. I also want experienced senior assistants. Perhaps it’s an issue of having those more senior to him making him more accountable.

If rumour of him leaving of his own accord if we don’t make finals is true that sounds reasonable to me. If we are thumped in an elimination final I would think it is likely he would hand in his resignation too.

[1eyedog]

I certainly don't want to sack Bevo during the season but it feels right that if we miss this year he walks.

[mjp]

I feel like the line items in your post could be applied to nearly every club. Look at St. Kilda's list and the kids at Essendon. You think our list is to blame for the poor performances?


The difference is (St Kilda, Essendon et al) that no-one is out there claiming they have these great lists. I keep hearing 'how good' our list is and I just don't see it. Sure - as others have pointed out - some of that is our fault through 'interesting' list management - but at the same time when we run out I don't see a murderers row of performers. I see a below average defensive group, excellent group of mids and talented but inexperienced forward line.

As for selection decisions - sure, whatever. I'm surprised at JOD's continued selection but it isn't like there is another A-grader waiting in the wings. Treloar came straight back in...I'm sure Richards will be straight back in when he's ready. If JOD doesn't play I guess we play another one of the many B-C grade, replacement level players who have had opportunities in the past but failed to grab them...I just don't get the obsession with one player? You want to play Hannan instead? Fine - but I've seen that movie before as well and it isn't great. COULD he contribute more? Maybe. Would he? Well...no guarantee!!

Could we have beaten Port? Well, we nearly did (twice)....we also 'coulda' beaten Geelong (undermanned but still had Hawkins and Cameron - their BEST against our weakest line!) and we 'coulda' beaten the GC but I still say playing in Darwin one week after playing in Ballarat was a hiding to nothing and the players and coaches did the best they could.

I think all of that (last paragraph) is beyond dispute and think it 100% means that we are NOT "untrustworthy" right now. In fact, we have played with great effort and resolve since Round 3. I don't understand that line of thinking even though I have heard it a bit.

Do I want to win? Of course I do...but I just don't get the angst right now - the other teams are trying to win too and they aren't going to roll over and die...The last 3 weeks we have been right there at 3/4 time...we couldn't finish but that doesn't mean we wont be able to 'finish' forever.

Pretty safe to say some of our A-graders aren't in great form right now. The weekend off will do them good.

[mjp]

100% agreed re. support staff. I feel that Bevo has been resistant to big names in the coaches box and I'm not sure why. I look at other boxes and see quality. Sydney have some very experienced assistants as does St Kilda. I actually believe outside of bringing in Lade we've had the least experienced box in the comp post-Covid.

Who in St Kilda's coaching panel is experienced?

I would love everyone who keeps talking about 'experienced coaches' coming in as assistants thinks an assistant coach does.

Because if what you think they do is over-ride the senior coach and implement their own system instead then you don't want to get a new assistant - you want to get a new coach.

If you think the develop relationships with players and lines and work with them to implement the strategy laid down by the senior coach, well, that's 100% what they do. They challenge individuals and lines to achieve set goals using a series of structures and a style of play that they practice + drill relentlessly...

I might be wrong but I feel this idea of a 'white knight' AC who will come in and 'CHANGE' Bevo to be 'someone else' (either through 'challenging him' which seems to be a common theory) or bribing him or black-mailing him or drugging him or whatever means necessary I guess...that idea is a MYTH. If you want an AC to do all that stuff then what you want is a new coach.

[GVGjr]

I don't understand this continued sentiment. From Friday night:


There's some quality there but I think we all get carried away with the 'talent'. Richards is another AA level player and he is missing I guess...JJ has talent but has so far exceeded his career expectations it's a joke!

I get what you're saying but we have been passive with our list management changes most years and the script on here with discussions is typically:

Trade Period and delistings
- We have sufficiently changed the list around how much more do you want?
Draft Period
- The talent isn't there
Mid season if things aren't going great
- We have some talent but the list isn't that strong
Trade Period and delistings (Rinse and repeat cycle)
- We have sufficiently changed the list around how much more do you want?

So based on some discussions on here it's a moving target and the list is perceived as being strong enough at the seasons end where some top ups is all that is required and if the wheels fall off a bit during the season then the list is average.
Imagine if we can get a jump on it a bit earlier then we might get a better balance.

The list is roughly shaped the way the Bevo and the coaches want it and if it's not good enough then they need to do something about it and not maintain marginal players with low talent level ceilings for a year or two too long. We lost Dunks and many thought that would give us a better balance but now the list isn't rated as strong.

[Grantysghost]

We lost Hunter and Dunkley both in top sides now and playing well.

Replaced with no one really, Baker isn't Hunter level.

We for some reason jettisoned a young mid (Lipinski) who would be playing now leaving a massive lack of young emerging mids.

How we couldn't sell him the vision is beyond belief.

Lobb is a complete bust I think, and like others not even slightly surprised.

Jones (Liam) has been great however we can't rely on him to carry the defence every week. He's already looking tired.

[Grantysghost]

Who in St Kilda's coaching panel is experienced?

I would love everyone who keeps talking about 'experienced coaches' coming in as assistants thinks an assistant coach does.

Because if what you think they do is over-ride the senior coach and implement their own system instead then you don't want to get a new assistant - you want to get a new coach.

If you think the develop relationships with players and lines and work with them to implement the strategy laid down by the senior coach, well, that's 100% what they do. They challenge individuals and lines to achieve set goals using a series of structures and a style of play that they practice + drill relentlessly...

I might be wrong but I feel this idea of a 'white knight' AC who will come in and 'CHANGE' Bevo to be 'someone else' (either through 'challenging him' which seems to be a common theory) or bribing him or black-mailing him or drugging him or whatever means necessary I guess...that idea is a MYTH. If you want an AC to do all that stuff then what you want is a new coach.

It's not one or the other surely?

Can't we have somewhere in the middle.

I can't imagine its a dictatorial as you've described recently. That would be completely unprofessional imo

It's a coaching team for a reason, I'd expect Bevo to have the strongest voice however if he's going it alone then we are doing it wrong.

One of my best mates was part of the Saints setup for a bit and a line coach at Sandy. He said it was an open discussion at times, not at others it certainly wasn't do as I say otherwise they'd not hang around.

Maybe the skill is making them feel important and listened to and then completely ignoring them ;)

[mjp]

We lost Hunter and Dunkley both in top sides now and playing well.

Replaced with no one really, Baker isn't Hunter level.

We for some reason jettisoned a young mid (Lipinski) who would be playing now leaving a massive lack of young emerging mids.

How we couldn't sell him the vision is beyond belief.

Lobb is a complete bust I think, and like others not even slightly surprised.

Jones (Liam) has been great however we can't rely on him to carry the defence every week. He's already looking tired.

I don't mind any of that but I'm pretty sure we offered Lipinski a contract -he didn't want it because he looked at the magnets on the midfield white board and said "I'm probably not tipping out any of them"...and off he went to Collingwood. Hunter issues were personal, Dunks left for cash....

Lobb was a bad idea from the get go and many on here have been consistent with that...me amongst them. As the coach said in the club, "I'm not against buying players - it's just that you're buying the wrong ones"...

I don't know what to tell you - the fish rots from the head and all but one minute it's Bevo's coaching and not getting enough out of a list and the next it's "the list management is bad and that's the reason"...it just isn't that simple.

We lack developing mids. Many of us have been saying that but an equal number of those seem happy with Khamis in year 4-5 on the list as a developing 'something' etc etc. The list goes on...as supporters we don't want to delist these developing kids (Rhylee West anyone) even though all evidence is they aren't QUITE good enough. I'm rambling now but I really just don't understand what everyone wants the coach to do.

I guess I'm a Bevo defender/apologist - I don't mean to be. But we're playing pretty well right now and could/should be winning. Sure, criticise the JOD selections (seems crazy to me as well) but it's not like there's a lot else so why wouldn't we have a good look at him and see what might be what?

[mjp]

It's not one or the other surely?

Can't we have somewhere in the middle.


I'm pretty sure that's where we are RIGHT NOW...in the middle. And that's how I described it - the coach establishes the vision - the coaches define the 'next level' (architect to engineers). But whilst everyone would have input to the plan, it is the COACH who ultimately has the final say.

Everyone needs to know their role and play their part (just like in every team).

As I said though

[Rocco Jones]

I think most (all?) successful coaches are 'stubborn'.

The difference between stupidly stubborn and innovative genius is winning. Choosing smart things to be stubborn about. Assistants should be their primarily to support the head coach in the way they (the senior coach) sees fit. If they fail, it's on them but I am not a believer in getting a senior assistant to 'challenge' the senior coach. As mjp says, in that instance, sack the coach.

The quality of the cattle is so subjective and open to affirmation bias. If you rate Bevo, he is lifting the perceived quality of players. He makes Dale AA by moving him to HBF etc. If you do not rate Bevo, there's a bunch of guys underperforming and all the players performing are doing it largely despite Bevo. Pro Bevo, Lewy Young sucks again see? Anti Bevo, Lewy's confidence was destroyed and he would be a better player now if he was shown faith.

What we need is Grant and co. to be highly competent and know when to hold them and when to fold them. Outside looking in, rest of the season obviously massive to whether Bevo is the right guy to lead the club. As long as the locker room is still with him(-ish), I say we definitely stick with him for at least the end of the season.

[Grantysghost]

I don't mind any of that but I'm pretty sure we offered Lipinski a contract -he didn't want it because he looked at the magnets on the midfield white board and said "I'm probably not tipping out any of them"...and off he went to Collingwood. Hunter issues were personal, Dunks left for cash....

Lobb was a bad idea from the get go and many on here have been consistent with that...me amongst them. As the coach said in the club, "I'm not against buying players - it's just that you're buying the wrong ones"...

I don't know what to tell you - the fish rots from the head and all but one minute it's Bevo's coaching and not getting enough out of a list and the next it's "the list management is bad and that's the reason"...it just isn't that simple.

We lack developing mids. Many of us have been saying that but an equal number of those seem happy with Khamis in year 4-5 on the list as a developing 'something' etc etc. The list goes on...as supporters we don't want to delist these developing kids (Rhylee West anyone) even though all evidence is they aren't QUITE good enough. I'm rambling now but I really just don't understand what everyone wants the coach to do.

I guess I'm a Bevo defender/apologist - I don't mean to be. But we're playing pretty well right now and could/should be winning. Sure, criticise the JOD selections (seems crazy to me as well) but it's not like there's a lot else so why wouldn't we have a good look at him and see what might be what?

I feel like with Lippa, surely we could have sold a vision that was palatable? High forwards are basically mids in our side I mean West was playing it this week, McComb last year... He's better than both of those.

None of us know the story clearly however I'd hope we'd have tried bloody hard to keep him, I don't really buy the no spot for him thing.

Treloar was probably the straw.

We just took Poulter ffs! Different I know, but.... I want quality on the list.

I'm doing the broken record thing so I'll shut up :)

[Bullies]

I don't mind any of that but I'm pretty sure we offered Lipinski a contract -he didn't want it because he looked at the magnets on the midfield white board and said "I'm probably not tipping out any of them"...and off he went to Collingwood. Hunter issues were personal, Dunks left for cash....

Lobb was a bad idea from the get go and many on here have been consistent with that...me amongst them. As the coach said in the club, "I'm not against buying players - it's just that you're buying the wrong ones"...

I don't know what to tell you - the fish rots from the head and all but one minute it's Bevo's coaching and not getting enough out of a list and the next it's "the list management is bad and that's the reason"...it just isn't that simple.

We lack developing mids. Many of us have been saying that but an equal number of those seem happy with Khamis in year 4-5 on the list as a developing 'something' etc etc. The list goes on...as supporters we don't want to delist these developing kids (Rhylee West anyone) even though all evidence is they aren't QUITE good enough. I'm rambling now but I really just don't understand what everyone wants the coach to do.

I guess I'm a Bevo defender/apologist - I don't mean to be. But we're playing pretty well right now and could/should be winning. Sure, criticise the JOD selections (seems crazy to me as well) but it's not like there's a lot else so why wouldn't we have a good look at him and see what might be what? I think we also need to remember we are not a club who is going to attract the A Graders. Treloar fell into our arms but we are much like the Saints/North who have to pay the "shit club" tax on B Grade players ie: Lobb. and pay overs. It is why we are so lucky that we have done well with the draft and usually nail it with our early picks.

We therefore have to take a punt on the guys like Lobb/Bruce/Crozier/Keath in the hope they suit our needs. All those guys were $500k plus.

[josie]

I’m not convinced Lobb is a bust yet. If we start honouring some of his leads when he is within our F50 he could be ok. I also think he is a clever tap ruck. Would I like home to show a bit more grit around the ground? Yes. I just don’t think he is a bust yet.

[Grantysghost]

I think we also need to remember we are not a club who is going to attract the A Graders. Treloar fell into our arms but we are much like the Saints/North who have to pay the "shit club" tax on B Grade players ie: Lobb. and pay overs. It is why we are so lucky that we have done well with the draft and usually nail it with our early picks.

We therefore have to take a punt on the guys like Lobb/Bruce/Crozier/Keath in the hope they suit our needs. All those guys were $500k plus.

I'm starting to think there's a widening gap between the Marvel tenants and the MCG tenants/Geelong.

Seeing this crowd today crikey Melbourne are Bradburying their way to profit.

Theyre on a par with us, the MCG gives them a massive bonus we don't get.

[Bullies]

Who in St Kilda's coaching panel is experienced?

I would love everyone who keeps talking about 'experienced coaches' coming in as assistants thinks an assistant coach does.

Because if what you think they do is over-ride the senior coach and implement their own system instead then you don't want to get a new assistant - you want to get a new coach.

If you think the develop relationships with players and lines and work with them to implement the strategy laid down by the senior coach, well, that's 100% what they do. They challenge individuals and lines to achieve set goals using a series of structures and a style of play that they practice + drill relentlessly...

I might be wrong but I feel this idea of a 'white knight' AC who will come in and 'CHANGE' Bevo to be 'someone else' (either through 'challenging him' which seems to be a common theory) or bribing him or black-mailing him or drugging him or whatever means necessary I guess...that idea is a MYTH. If you want an AC to do all that stuff then what you want is a new coach.

For what its worth Marc Webb is very highly rated in the AFL. Freo tried to retain him as Asst Coach. The players also regard him highly.

[macca]

I?m not convinced Lobb is a bust yet. If we start honouring some of his leads when he is within our F50 he could be ok. I also think he is a clever tap ruck. Would I like home to show a bit more grit around the ground? Yes. I just don?t think he is a bust yet.

If Fremantle were giving him B+ midfield delivery, ours would be a C:
C- converging players
C- crap delivery
C- can we do some training in forward leading patterns ?

He kicked 36.24 (60%) conversion last year

[Hotdog60]

I in the keep Bevo camp regardless of what happens this season but if we do fall short I think a full season review is needed and discuss why selections were made what was the thought process was here and there and what can we do as a club to get things moving forward.
If Bevo goes do we get a untried coach or do we go for say Hardwick who may no be motivated to coach and if we offer the world may take because it too good to refuse and half through say nah I have enough.
I think Bevo a very good coach and it may just need more assistance in the coaching ranks.

[angelopetraglia]

I'm starting to think there's a widening gap between the Marvel tenants and the MCG tenants/Geelong.

Seeing this crowd today crikey Melbourne are Bradburying their way to profit.

Theyre on a par with us, the MCG gives them a massive bonus we don't get.

Yes. Agree. The Bombers ditched Windy Hill early and embraced the MCG. When Docklands came, they were enticed to the new stadium. It wasn't a good decision. It has allowed the like of Collingwood and Richmond to go past them IMHO.

[Grantysghost]

Yes. Agree. The Bombers ditched Windy Hill early and embraced the MCG. When Docklands came, they were enticed to the new stadium. It wasn't a good decision. It has allowed the like of Collingwood and Richmond to go past them IMHO.

Yeah and we are the only team to win a flag from there.

Dons in 2000 were half and half from memory.

[GVGjr]

I in the keep Bevo camp regardless of what happens this season but if we do fall short I think a full season review is needed and discuss why selections were made what was the thought process was here and there and what can we do as a club to get things moving forward.
If Bevo goes do we get a untried coach or do we go for say Hardwick who may no be motivated to coach and if we offer the world may take because it too good to refuse and half through say nah I have enough.
I think Bevo a very good coach and it may just need more assistance in the coaching ranks.

Bevo is a very good coach, no doubt about it but to me it's a flawed logic that says regardless of how this season plays out we simply stick with him. We shouldn't be scared to test the market if we we are falling short of the mark.
If we are blaming the quality of the list then why did we top up with experienced players at the end of last season? That doesn't seem to be an approach a club would take if they didn't rate our chances.
In fact after our GF run in 2021 and knowing Bruce and McLean would miss most of 2022 we didn't make a lot of changes then either.
Our history would say the club rates the list so we need to pinpoint other reasons if we don't measure up this year.
Is the relocation away from the Whitten Oval something that has impacted the teams performance?

[The bulldog tragician]

I in the keep Bevo camp regardless of what happens this season but if we do fall short I think a full season review is needed and discuss why selections were made what was the thought process was here and there and what can we do as a club to get things moving forward.
If Bevo goes do we get a untried coach or do we go for say Hardwick who may no be motivated to coach and if we offer the world may take because it too good to refuse and half through say nah I have enough.
I think Bevo a very good coach and it may just need more assistance in the coaching ranks.
A review was supposed to have happened last year. We weren’t privy to its findings. The only new blood was Lade.

While I’m not doubting mjp’s greater understanding of how coaching panels work it just seems logical that more experienced coaches eg Mark Williams at Melb and/or those who’ve played and coached elsewhere bring something extra to the table even if it’s fresh ideas.

[Pedro Sanchez]

For what its worth, Lipinski was also offered a much bigger salary at the Pies. Him, and Young now at the Blues, were both able to line their pockets, secure longer term contracts and also get more playing time opportunities. Dogs weren't prepared, and rightly so given their form up until that point, to match.

Just sayin...

In terms of camps, pro bevo or against, i dont have one. Actually maybe I'm in the performance camp - if that's even a thing. At the moment in my view we are performing pretty well, we're just not getting the results.

At the half way point of the season, I'm prepared to let it ride and assess final opinions once the cup has been won. Only then will we see who the real winners are/is. Hoping our club can refine its game plans execution between now and then to turn a corner and give ourselves every chance come the pointy end of the season.

[EasternWest]

For what its worth, Lipinski was also offered a much bigger salary at the Pies. Him, and Young now at the Blues, were both able to line their pockets, secure longer term contracts and also get more playing time opportunities. Dogs weren't prepared, and rightly so given their form up until that point, to match.

Just sayin...

In terms of camps, pro bevo or against, i dont have one. Actually maybe I'm in the performance camp - if that's even a thing. At the moment in my view we are performing pretty well, we're just not getting the results.

At the half way point of the season, I'm prepared to let it ride and assess final opinions once the cup has been won. Only then will we see who the real winners are/is. Hoping our club can refine its game plans execution between now and then to turn a corner and give ourselves every chance come the pointy end of the season.

Nailed it.

[Grantysghost]

Nailed it.

Except the Lipinski part he was getting 40 touches a week in the twos.

Plus.. I mean look at him.

[Pedro Sanchez]

Except the Lipinski part he was getting 40 touches a week in the twos.

Plus.. I mean look at him.

Fair point - he's a good looking rooster. But he also got a truck load of opps in the ones and never took them. Struggled to convert his VFL form onto the big stage for us. Could have been how we coached him, could have been he was still to young, but fair play to him, he's up and about now playing really well.

[1eyedog]

Bevo is a very good coach, no doubt about it but to me it's a flawed logic that says regardless of how this season plays out we simply stick with him. We shouldn't be scared to test the market if we we are falling short of the mark.
If we are blaming the quality of the list then why did we top up with experienced players at the end of last season? That doesn't seem to be an approach a club would take if they didn't rate our chances.
In fact after our GF run in 2021 and knowing Bruce and McLean would miss most of 2022 we didn't make a lot of changes then either.
Our history would say the club rates the list so we need to pinpoint other reasons if we don't measure up this year.
Is the relocation away from the Whitten Oval something that has impacted the teams performance?

This week was the first time I've heard Bevo imply that the list isnt as good as he thought when he said we're a rung below the top 4 teams. That was a big concession for mine because prior to that it has always been we can beat anyone.

[1eyedog]

For what its worth, Lipinski was also offered a much bigger salary at the Pies. Him, and Young now at the Blues, were both able to line their pockets, secure longer term contracts and also get more playing time opportunities. Dogs weren't prepared, and rightly so given their form up until that point, to match.

Just sayin...

In terms of camps, pro bevo or against, i dont have one. Actually maybe I'm in the performance camp - if that's even a thing. At the moment in my view we are performing pretty well, we're just not getting the results.

At the half way point of the season, I'm prepared to let it ride and assess final opinions once the cup has been won. Only then will we see who the real winners are/is. Hoping our club can refine its game plans execution between now and then to turn a corner and give ourselves every chance come the pointy end of the season.

That's what I mean i.e refining the game plan. How many years to get it right? He's had this list together for a long time.

It's very feasible that North Melbourne beat us this week.

Then what?

This place will burn down.

[jeemak]

We lost Hunter and Dunkley both in top sides now and playing well.

Replaced with no one really, Baker isn't Hunter level.

We for some reason jettisoned a young mid (Lipinski) who would be playing now leaving a massive lack of young emerging mids.

How we couldn't sell him the vision is beyond belief.

Lobb is a complete bust I think, and like others not even slightly surprised.

Jones (Liam) has been great however we can't rely on him to carry the defence every week. He's already looking tired.

We jettisoned Lipinski did we? Or did we ask him to try and play as a wing so he could get a game? Come on mate.

[Hotdog60]

Bevo is a very good coach, no doubt about it but to me it's a flawed logic that says regardless of how this season plays out we simply stick with him. We shouldn't be scared to test the market if we we are falling short of the mark.
If we are blaming the quality of the list then why did we top up with experienced players at the end of last season? That doesn't seem to be an approach a club would take if they didn't rate our chances.
In fact after our GF run in 2021 and knowing Bruce and McLean would miss most of 2022 we didn't make a lot of changes then either.
Our history would say the club rates the list so we need to pinpoint other reasons if we don't measure up this year.
Is the relocation away from the Whitten Oval something that has impacted the teams performance?

It's more I'm happy for him to see out his contract but if feels the need to jump well no one can stop that.

[Hotdog60]

This week was the first time I've heard Bevo imply that the list isnt as good as he thought when he said we're a rung below the top 4 teams. That was a big concession for mine because prior to that it has always been we can beat anyone.

It will be interesting to see if we have a cull at the end of the year.

[Grantysghost]

We jettisoned Lipinski did we? Or did we ask him to try and play as a wing so he could get a game? Come on mate.

I like the word jettisoned I'm sticking with it.

He plays high half forward/pushing into mid at Pies. I think that's where we played him?

Did we ask him to play wing?

Edit : I found a reference to wing in an afl article no direct quote.

My point is, if we sold the future to him with he being a part of it he'd be playing 200 games for us and not the Pies.

McComb played high half forward when he left. There was room. Now there's more.

You lot will never convince me a.) we couldn't have kept him and b.) he's no good especially when he is straight back into the top side this weekend.

[1eyedog]

It will be interesting to see if we have a cull at the end of the year.

It will indeed. Friday night was the first time in a long time we saw a decent reshuffle re. team selection except we should have included JOD as well but get that we made alot of changes. I liked West back in just give him a crack now. Bring Poulter in as well and let's have a look. Cleary as well. What do we have to lose on the likes of JOD and McNeil? We've lost two half back flankers let's actually replace them with two half back flankers and give them 4-5 weeks, the same opportunity others have had.

It's time to make tough decisions in terms of our personnel on a week by week basis but as you say a list cleanse is long overdue post season as well.

[jeemak]

I like the word jettisoned I'm sticking with it.

He plays high half forward/pushing into mid at Pies. I think that's where we played him?

Did we ask him to play wing?

Edit : I found a reference to wing in an afl article no direct quote.

My point is, if we sold the future to him with he being a part of it he'd be playing 200 games for us and not the Pies.

McComb played high half forward when he left. There was room. Now there's more.

You lot will never convince me a.) we couldn't have kept him and b.) he's no good especially when he is straight back into the top side this weekend.

We had Adam Treloar and Bailey Smith playing the high half forward roles, and rotating through the middle where Jack, Bont, Dunkley and Libba got first crack.

Lipinski got some time there, but he was asked to play wing and had issues with being asked to continually improve his speed to facilitate higher performance in the role.

Personally I think he left one year early given Dunkely was never going to stay, but he got an immediate opportunity with the Pies and good luck to him.

He's an extremely neat finisher and user of the football, and very handsome which is a bonus. Good luck to him, but don't bullshit around by saying we jettisoned him.

[jeemak]

Anyway, back on topic.

The team, to MJP's point, is actually playing committed football at the moment and outside of butchering shots at goal vs. Geelong and passing vs. Port has been up to its eyeballs in a very tough three game stretch - after a pretty tough start to the year fixture/ travel wise.

If we were putting in efforts like the first two rounds or losing to shit kickers I'd understand the angst, but right now I don't get the level that's being projected. I get there's things that need improving across selection, list management and a few other things, but the willingness to panic and pile on at the moment is over the top for mine*.

*Lose against Norf and I'm right into it, however! :)

[EasternWest]

Except the Lipinski part he was getting 40 touches a week in the twos.

Plus.. I mean look at him.

I have zero regrets that Lipinski isn't at our club anymore, and I'm happy he's going well.

Your second point almost won me back over. Impossibly dreamy.