What's the fix?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

OK, so last night was a disaster and a representation of everything we have done wrong for multiple years. Goals out the back, skill errors, inability to pressure the opposition, poor I50 entries, capitulation of spirit etc.

So what's the fix? CAN it be fixed?

As much as I think the coaching group need to be held accountable, and they should be, I'm really questioning some of our players.

Is Dale up to the pressure of big games? Is Daniel the player he was? Is Keath done? Is Macrae one of the biggest problems we have? Is our depth THAT bad?

We could go on.

We know the issues both collectively and individually. We've known about them for some time. It's one game but clearly all of these issues remain in the spotlight.

My fear is it cannot be fixed with THIS personnel and highlights we haven't hit the draft hard enough in recent years. Part of that is forced through what we had to give up for Marra and Darcy, part of it is that we haven't made it a priority. The list looks a little stale - to not have a debutant last night is unusual (Baker/Lobb don't count).

We can build around our young core, but my feeling is we really need to hit the draft. For now, and I'm not saying we throw the baby out with the bath water, but I'd like to see us invest games into younger talent where possible (Garcia, Arty, Bedendo, Cleary etc).

Thoughts?

[soupman]

The list is really good imo. We are however less than the sum of all our parts. That's a system issue.

There are complicating factors within that, regarding the standards we accept, whether certain players work hard enough or "want it enough ". But ultimately we have had a very talented list underperform for the last say 5 years.

The system needs to change. Maybe it is, it seems they were focusing on the right things pre season and it still is very early days. I fail to see what blowing it all up again with the list achieves.

[DOG GOD]

The simple fact for mine is that our prima Donna midfield do not have 1 defensive pressure act bone in their combined bodies. Until we get 2-3 mids who do, we aren’t going anywhere.

Jones, Bruce and Keath as our defensive posts. 3 players almost done and dusted.

Our best defender playing as a fwd.

Only 3-4 guys who can hit a leading target.

The skill level of half the team is VFL standard.

[G-Mo77]

We can build around our young core, but my feeling is we really need to hit the draft. For now, and I'm not saying we throw the baby out with the bath water, but I'd like to see us invest games into younger talent where possible (Garcia, Arty, Bedendo, Cleary etc).

Thoughts?

I'm writing us off now. Blood some young kids, don't play these plodders (Hannan, McComb, Baker) see what we have at lower level and get a higher pick next season. We're not ad bad as it seems but we're nowhere near good enough to compete in the final 8. Some youth and enthusiasm through the senior team would be welcoming.

[bornadog]

I'm writing us off now. Blood some young kids, don't play these plodders (Hannan, McComb, Baker) see what we have at lower level and get a higher pick next season. We're not ad bad as it seems but we're nowhere near good enough to compete in the final 8. Some youth and enthusiasm through the senior team would be welcoming.

Which young kids would you like to see in?

[G-Mo77]

Which young kids would you like to see in?

Any of them. I don't think we have much to work with to be honest. Bedendo and Cleary are the ones who I rate mostly. Not sure who Scotty West has to bone to get his son in there. Jones' probably just unlucky as he was rumoured to be a Rd1 inclusion and got injured. Buku, Garcia just play them extended minutes over long periods and see if there is something. Grabbing all these retreads and trying to build a high quality team does not work. Why we chose Baker and kept another list spot open for some other bum is ludicrous.

And yeah I want to get games into Sweet but with our height the way it is how donwe fit him in.

[bornadog]

The OP has given us a very hard question to answer. Forget about what shoulda, coulda had been done in the past with drafting etc. We are one game in and we shit our pants, but can turn it around. Melbourne is a good side and they always start like this (last 3 seasons).

We need to look at either solutions for this year or beyond if it doesn't work.

Before this game, we all thought finally we have a balanced team, but due to a few injuries, we are lacking small forwards who can apply pressure, but overall, we thought we have a top 4 team ready to go.

What is the FIX

1. I would round up the mids including wings in a room and put the pressure back on them. When they are kicking into the forward line, they need to lower their eyes and hit a chest, and stop bombing it in. Failing to do so, they will be replaced by Garcia, West and even McComb.

2. Forwards - Goal kicking practise every day.

3. Backline - Dale, Daniel, Ed, Doc - practise practise practise hitting a target. We have some of the best kicks in the AFL and they were atrocious last night.

4. Ball ups - Rucks and mids must work harder and ensure the clearances are clean and delivered smoothly to the next player.

In other words back to basics.

Sorry if this sounds stupid and simple, but if we don't get the basics right, the game plan falls to bits.

[G-Mo77]

In other words back to basics.

Sorry if this sounds stupid and simple, but if we don't get the basics right, the game plan falls to bits.

Doesn't sound stupid at all mate. I don't think Brendan McCartney does get much credit for some of the things he did here. He was not a Senior Coach but he did instil a very strong work ethic into our players and our basics were very good once a better coach was put at the helm. Those suffering years, IMO, were a key component to that premiership side in 2016.

[DOG GOD]

The OP has given us a very hard question to answer. Forget about what shoulda, coulda had been done in the past with drafting etc. We are one game in and we shit our pants, but can turn it around. Melbourne is a good side and they always start like this (last 3 seasons).

We need to look at either solutions for this year or beyond if it doesn't work.

Before this game, we all thought finally we have a balanced team, but due to a few injuries, we are lacking small forwards who can apply pressure, but overall, we thought we have a top 4 team ready to go.

What is the FIX

1. I would round up the mids including wings in a room and put the pressure back on them. When they are kicking into the forward line, they need to lower their eyes and hit a chest, and stop bombing it in. Failing to do so, they will be replaced by Garcia, West and even McComb.

2. Forwards - Goal kicking practise every day.

3. Backline - Dale, Daniel, Ed, Doc - practise practise practise hitting a target. We have some of the best kicks in the AFL and they were atrocious last night.

4. Ball ups - Rucks and mids must work harder and ensure the clearances are clean and delivered smoothly to the next player.

In other words back to basics.

Sorry if this sounds stupid and simple, but if we don't get the basics right, the game plan falls to bits.

I didn’t.
I didn’t pick us to make the 8.

[bornadog]

I didn’t.
I didn’t pick us to make the 8.

I didn't think you would :D

[D Mitchell]

McCartney's insistence that every player had to be able to win his own ball, still there in 2015-2016, has since disappeared as a qualification for selection. Naughton aside, there was no urgency by any of the forwards. There's not much point having 4 talls if only one them performs.

[GVGjr]

We know the issues both collectively and individually. We've known about them for some time. It's one game but clearly all of these issues remain in the spotlight.

My fear is it cannot be fixed with THIS personnel and highlights we haven't hit the draft hard enough in recent years. Part of that is forced through what we had to give up for Marra and Darcy, part of it is that we haven't made it a priority. The list looks a little stale - to not have a debutant last night is unusual (Baker/Lobb don't count).

We can build around our young core, but my feeling is we really need to hit the draft. For now, and I'm not saying we throw the baby out with the bath water, but I'd like to see us invest games into younger talent where possible (Garcia, Arty, Bedendo, Cleary etc).

Thoughts?

This is such a complicated discussion but one I hope the clubs is constantly challenging themselves with.
The fact that we chased experienced players in Jones and Lobb and really didn't cut into the list at the end of last season means that from the clubs perspective the window is open and it's our time to deliver and I'm not sure we've been great at backing up on expectations. How we perform this years will either justify that position or challenge it.
What I don't know is if we ready for is the possibility that we don't measure up to the level of expectation.

What are our options if we fall short this year?

One of them could be to break up the list North or Hawks style and try and build through the draft and via FA acquisitions or trades with a more emerging players lens on it?
It's an option that is fraught with danger though given we wouldn't be regarded as a destination club for players.
In that scenario 2 year rebuilds can quite easily become 4 or 5 years outside of the 8 and for a club so reliant on membership and sponsorship that option could be a slippery slope with more downside than upside for us.

Whatever decision we make needs to be done with brave intent not a bit each way and that's where I don't think we have the leadership to make those brave and harsh calls.

It will be interesting to see if we are genuinely committed to our current approach later in the season.

[anfo27]

The list is good enough. Was the list good enough when Bevo took over Macca? everyone would have said no but Bevo got the best out of them. If we can fix Bevo's anti-defence tactics & be sound as a defensive unit, we have a chance to do something special. Yeah we could do with some crumbing forwards so the list isn't perfectly balanced.

I honestly can't see Bevo fixing this problem though.

[Grantysghost]

The simple fact for mine is that our prima Donna midfield do not have 1 defensive pressure act bone in their combined bodies. Until we get 2-3 mids who do, we aren’t going anywhere.

Jones, Bruce and Keath as our defensive posts. 3 players almost done and dusted.

Our best defender playing as a fwd.

Only 3-4 guys who can hit a leading target.

The skill level of half the team is VFL standard.

Did you say pressure acts?

[macca]

Any of them. I don't think we have much to work with to be honest. Bedendo and Cleary are the ones who I rate mostly. Not sure who Scotty West has to bone to get his son in there. Jones' probably just unlucky as he was rumoured to be a Rd1 inclusion and got injured. Buku, Garcia just play them extended minutes over long periods and see if there is something. Grabbing all these retreads and trying to build a high quality team does not work. Why we chose Baker and kept another list spot open for some other bum is ludicrous.

And yeah I want to get games into Sweet but with our height the way it is how donwe fit him in.

Melbourne had 2 debut yesterday : Laurie and McVee and Rookie from 2020 Kade Chandler ( kicked 1 goal, 7 tackles)

[DOG GOD]

Did you say pressure acts?
Pretty much non existent with Bont, Macrae, Libba, Smith and Treloar.

[macca]

McCartney's insistence that every player had to be able to win his own ball, still there in 2015-2016, has since disappeared as a qualification for selection. Naughton aside, there was no urgency by any of the forwards. There's not much point having 4 talls if only one them performs.

When I read this, the moments in the 2016 with hard tackling by Moz and McClean game to mind. Especially the one where Moz tackled Frankin. Every player tried to even the contest.

[GVGjr]

I didn’t.
I didn’t pick us to make the 8.

Obviously I'd love it if we proved you wrong and no doubt you would be happy about it as well. :)

[DOG GOD]

Obviously I'd love it if we proved you wrong and no doubt you would be happy about it as well. :)

I just couldn’t see it. Carlton gifted us top 8 last year and I didn’t think Jones and Lobb would be the difference from that to top 4. Losing Dunkley as well. Keath was stuffed and a year older. Round 1 just showcased that nothing has changed with skill level, execution and gameplan. Add that with a fairly hard schedule in the first 6 weeks, around the mark of 9th-11th would be on the mark regarding game style and player list. ofcourse I hope we make top 4, but after last night, nothing has changed from the last few years, especially defensively, which is our biggest flaw.

[Mofra]

We need a tagger. A guy who has limitations - perhaps many limitations - but throws himself at every contest as an instinct, not an instruction.
I know he has flaws but is it time to get West up to speed as a tagger rather than a forward?
We nail easy set shots and we're actually level at 3/4 time - stop a few of their 'clean' clearances, same deal. Libba has done it sometimes but we need him hunting the ball. Bont isn't quick, and Macrae is an accumulator not a stopper.

[GVGjr]

We need a tagger. A guy who has limitations - perhaps many limitations - but throws himself at every contest as an instinct, not an instruction.
I know he has flaws but is it time to get West up to speed as a tagger rather than a forward?
We nail easy set shots and we're actually level at 3/4 time - stop a few of their 'clean' clearances, same deal. Libba has done it sometimes but we need him hunting the ball. Bont isn't quick, and Macrae is an accumulator not a stopper.

A couple of years back I mentioned that Hewett should have been our target and could be a tagger for us given that ethic of attack and defense could have been invaluable for us. Someone like Ports Drew could be a decent option as well.
Unless we are prepared to utilise someone in that role then it's probably pointless chasing a tagger.

[Bigdog]

I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom. Panic would be the worst thing we could do. A couple of points:

- IMO we should have been a mile up during that second quarter. We were all over Melbourne but we did not capitalise. Although Jones wasn’t brilliant, we conceded 5 on the trot in that second quarter when he went down. So structurally he was a major loss mid game.
- Skill errors were the biggest issue. 2 goals from Daniel miss-kicks and 1 goal from a jj dropped chest mark. Doubt this happens again.
- The mix is going to take time to play around the big fellas. Pace will be key. There are going to be opportunities for A.Jones and Bendendo.

I don’t feel like the gap between the sides was as big as the scoreboard. We had opportunities, but execution was poor.

The lack of grit was disappointing when things didn’t go our way.

[Boots]

I think after last night that the list is still dreadfully unbalanced. There are too many talls now and they are not reliable because they are also too green. Instead of an overly stacked midfield, we’ve now got no new blood coming through there because it’s all in the forward line. When Darcy and Marra come good there will be nobody left to supply them. And while the flexibility mantra used to be a path to depth, with players still occupying a regular slot unless they needed to be elsewhere, it’s now a limitation.

I think we need to play players in positions and build the system around them. Look at how Lewis young has flourished by comparison now he’s in one position. Who do we play in one spot? I’ve seen almost everyone on multiple parts of the ground over the last few years. I think it’s hurting us, and giving us a sense that it’s ok to constantly experiment. When we do it during the season, it’s like we don’t respect the stakes of the premiership season. I think it stops us settling a system and it’s poison to accountability because players play to their individual strengths regardless of where they are and what is required of them. Nobody actually seems to know what to do most of the time.

I think we need to acknowledge we’re not going to win the flag this year because the list is unbalanced, and start getting games into under-utilised players. West, khamis, Bedendo. Get arty jones into the game. Find out just how unbalanced we actually are, and start recruiting appropriately.

I think if we want to win now, the former - killing the flexibility obsession - is more important than the latter. We might make good this year if we have a better system. Conversely, if we refuse to make a radical coaching intervention, we need to do the latter - blood the kids.

I completely agree that the team’s attitude has got worse and worse and worse every year, with the exception of 2021. There’s none of the tenacity of 2015 or 2016 anymore. What happened in 2021? Why were we so good? Can we do that again? If not, why not?

[The Doctor]

At the moment we are on target to get picks 3 & 4 in the super draft this year. That'll help!

[anfo27]

We need a tagger. A guy who has limitations - perhaps many limitations - but throws himself at every contest as an instinct, not an instruction.
I know he has flaws but is it time to get West up to speed as a tagger rather than a forward?
We nail easy set shots and we're actually level at 3/4 time - stop a few of their 'clean' clearances, same deal. Libba has done it sometimes but we need him hunting the ball. Bont isn't quick, and Macrae is an accumulator not a stopper.

Don't know what his fitness is like but McNeil comes to mind. Has wheels, can tackle & certainly has limitations.

[SonofScray]

Scoring more goals than the opposition in the allocated time for play should help.

Moving on a coach who has spent all their credits from the ‘16 flag, severely underperforming year on year in his failure to secure a top 4 result and to have the players mentally prepared for big moments (bullied in GWS finals, catastrophic collapse in a GF, rolled over in an Elimination final), that’d be one part of my efforts to fix things. (Last one of these rants until next week, I promise)

[bornadog]

Scoring more goals than the opposition in the allocated time for play should help.

Moving on a coach who has spent all their credits from the ‘16 flag, severely underperforming year on year in his failure to secure a top 4 result and to have the players mentally prepared for big moments (bullied in GWS finals, catastrophic collapse in a GF, rolled over in an Elimination final), that’d be one part of my efforts to fix things. (Last one of these rants until next week, I promise)

You mean that bloke who has lead us to 6 finals in 8 seasons, including two Grandfinals and a winning percentage of 57.32%

[GVGjr]

Scoring more goals than the opposition in the allocated time for play should help.

Moving on a coach who has spent all their credits from the ‘16 flag, severely underperforming year on year in his failure to secure a top 4 result and to have the players mentally prepared for big moments (bullied in GWS finals, catastrophic collapse in a GF, rolled over in an Elimination final), that’d be one part of my efforts to fix things. (Last one of these rants until next week, I promise)

My biggest concern with Bevo is how we handled the distractions of the 2017 season because we really didn't address questionable behaviours and I think it took a long while to overcome them.
Losing the momentum we had from 2015 and 2016 really impacted the club.

[anfo27]

I think mentality is a big one. I felt last night the dees knew they were better than us in the middle, which they should but it looks like we also believe they are better than us in there. Thats why they own us in there, we have no belief.

[bornadog]

My biggest concern with Bevo is how we handled the distractions of the 2017 season because we really didn't address questionable behaviours and I think it took a long while to overcome them.
Losing the momentum we had from 2015 and 2016 really impacted the club.

How do you account for 2021?

[FrediKanoute]

Which young kids would you like to see in?

West vs Hannan
McNeil vs JJ
Garcia vs Darcy/Bruce?

All provide a contest at ground level and in the case of McNeil and Garcia - pace!

[GVGjr]

How do you account for 2021?

It's got nothing to do with the point I was making about Bevo and the club not addressing poor behaviours in 17.

[bornadog]

It's got nothing to do with the point I was making about Bevo and the club not addressing poor behaviours in 15/16.

Aren't you saying the same problems exist now?

[FrediKanoute]

This start has the feeling of 1993......3 ganes in, 3 heavy losses bye bye coach.

Yes the players failed to execute, but the coaching group need to be accountable as well, How we went into a game without sufficient ground level coverage is beyond me. Lets give up truing to make JJ a forward - he isn't and has never been. Hannan in the 3 or so seasons he has been with us has been gifted game after game and does f*ck all to deserve it.

Our tendency to pick the wrong team too often is our achilles heel

[SonofScray]

You mean that bloke who has lead us to 6 finals in 8 seasons, including two Grandfinals and a winning percentage of 57.32%

Same one. He’s finished.

[MrMahatma]

There’s no fix apart from sticking at it. You don’t train all preseason then change after 1 match.

We have to assume the coaches know why things are happening, and they’re trying to get the players to change a few things in order to get it right.

[mjp]

There’s no fix apart from sticking at it. You don’t train all preseason then change after 1 match.

We have to assume the coaches know why things are happening, and they’re trying to get the players to change a few things in order to get it right.

I 100% agree with this. And with respect to FK I don't see the similarities between now and '93. At all.

I am worried about our leadership and I think we have gotten it wrong. If we had fixed it, then the 2021 GF would have been the last collapse of that nature...it felt like a weekly event this time last year and - whilst I was somewhat surprised at the collapse on Saturday night can anyone here really say they were shocked?

I actually got worried when Melbourne started announcing who was out (May, et al) because if there is one thing the team in RWB do NOT need it's even the HINT of a thought that they might be able to take their foot off the pedal. It honestly feels like our group has the opposite of the 'Anytime, Anywhere' type mentality that great sides (in world sport, not just Oz sport) seem to bring to a contest...they are the Ron Clarke of Australian footy (setting record after record in between the major events) and could break a scoring record at a game in Kalamazoo but stick us on prime time vs a contender, well...much like Ron in the Olympic games you can mark us down for a DNF.

[GVGjr]

Aren't you saying the same problems exist now?

Please re read what I posted. I said that my main criticism is how Bevo and the club let the problems of throughout 17 fester and that I think it impacted us for a few years. We were on a roll and had a gap year and losing that momentum hurt us.
I don't think I can make my thoughts on Bevo any clearer given that I'm firmly in the supportive camp.
At times I have absolutely seen some faults in him along his journey with us and I think it's okay to add them to the discussions.

For the record in my opinion we didn't grasp our chances in 21 and could have won it.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

West vs Hannan
McNeil vs JJ
Garcia vs Darcy/Bruce?

All provide a contest at ground level and in the case of McNeil and Garcia - pace!

These comments make a lot of sense. I would add the likes of Maclean to your possible ins. To play talls up forward in Marra
Lobb and Darcy and then add Hannan at the expense of West, Garcia or Maclean was nonsensical. Without Jones in defence we are very vulnerable to have Keath and Bruce playing as key defenders. Apart from English Naughton and Bontempelli our emphasis on taller players shows an unbalanced team selection.

[Mofra]

Don't know what his fitness is like but McNeil comes to mind. Has wheels, can tackle & certainly has limitations.
He played inside and outside mid before getting picked up (PSD?) - it's actually a pretty good nomination as his pressure in the forward half has been pretty good when he's played

[macca]

He played inside and outside mid before getting picked up (PSD?) - it's actually a pretty good nomination as his pressure in the forward half has been pretty good when he's played

I liked what I saw of McNeil last year, except for some of his goal kicking. His fwd pressure is good and he makes an effort. Its a shame we don't give him a string of games to play out. If his kicking was better and accurate he would be a start up as a small fwd in our team

[Uninformed]

I don't think the issue and/or solution is in recruiting. To me we have a very talented and capable list. The comparison that illustrates this the most after Sunday was the Saints. We have a far better list profile than the Saints even without their horror list of injuries. And, though the Dockers are no Melbourne, the Saints win had great merit and was very surprising. The elements that contributed to their improvement seemed to be game plan, discipline and fitness. Their game plan seemed to be what our coaches have been saying that we are concentrating on over the pre-season. Better team defence, transition and attacking method. To me, that is the fix. The problem is we couldn't implement what we have been training to do on Saturday. The solution is to make sure we do next week and every week thereafter.

[bornadog]

I don't think the issue and/or solution is in recruiting. To me we have a very talented and capable list. The comparison that illustrates this the most after Sunday was the Saints. We have a far better list profile than the Saints even without their horror list of injuries. And, though the Dockers are no Melbourne, the Saints win had great merit and was very surprising. The elements that contributed to their improvement seemed to be game plan, discipline and fitness. Their game plan seemed to be what our coaches have been saying that we are concentrating on over the pre-season. Better team defence, transition and attacking method. To me, that is the fix. The problem is we couldn't implement what we have been training to do on Saturday. The solution is to make sure we do next week and every week thereafter.

Good Post and totally agree

[Boots]

I don't think the issue and/or solution is in recruiting. To me we have a very talented and capable list. The comparison that illustrates this the most after Sunday was the Saints. We have a far better list profile than the Saints even without their horror list of injuries. And, though the Dockers are no Melbourne, the Saints win had great merit and was very surprising. The elements that contributed to their improvement seemed to be game plan, discipline and fitness. Their game plan seemed to be what our coaches have been saying that we are concentrating on over the pre-season. Better team defence, transition and attacking method. To me, that is the fix. The problem is we couldn't implement what we have been training to do on Saturday. The solution is to make sure we do next week and every week thereafter.

With a couple of days distance and having processed my extreme irritation at the loss, I think this is right. The psychological wilting isn't the problem, it's the symptom of the problem; it's just what our guys do when they don't have faith in the game plan. It's irritating in the extreme because we have seen it so often before and it seems like there's no progress.

But also - any team that didn't yet know their new game plan would look like exactly we did on Saturday - a confused rabble. Why run hard when you don't know what the output of the running will be? How can you trust your teammates when you don't know where they'll be because they are also still learning the new gameplan?

I think the 'fix' is, stick with the new system, as much as I hate to say it. It might take a month to get right and it's a hard road back from there, and I still have concerns about the balance of our list, but I'm less despairing than I was on Sunday morning.

[SonofScray]

I don't think the issue and/or solution is in recruiting. To me we have a very talented and capable list. The comparison that illustrates this the most after Sunday was the Saints. We have a far better list profile than the Saints even without their horror list of injuries. And, though the Dockers are no Melbourne, the Saints win had great merit and was very surprising. The elements that contributed to their improvement seemed to be game plan, discipline and fitness. Their game plan seemed to be what our coaches have been saying that we are concentrating on over the pre-season. Better team defence, transition and attacking method. To me, that is the fix. The problem is we couldn't implement what we have been training to do on Saturday. The solution is to make sure we do next week and every week thereafter.
Terrific assessment and perspective re: solution.

The issue for me is, they won’t. We won’t see that, because the pattern of behaviour consistently tells us that this group will wilt.I can’t trust that they’ll fight tooth and nail for the best outcome and I can’t trust that the coach has set them up for success, because he hasn’t been able to address this pattern of behaviour over an Olympiad.

[azabob]

Terrific assessment and perspective re: solution.

The issue for me is, they won’t. We won’t see that, because the pattern of behaviour consistently tells us that this group will wilt.I can’t trust that they’ll fight tooth and nail for the best outcome and I can’t trust that the coach has set them up for success, because he hasn’t been able to address this pattern of behaviour over an Olympiad.

If we as supporters can't trust the team on field, how do their respective teammates trust each other?

[1eyedog]

Terrific assessment and perspective re: solution.

The issue for me is, they won’t. We won’t see that, because the pattern of behaviour consistently tells us that this group will wilt.I can’t trust that they’ll fight tooth and nail for the best outcome and I can’t trust that the coach has set them up for success, because he hasn’t been able to address this pattern of behaviour over an Olympiad.

Yeah this list is completely untrustworthy and we either have a team of dumb footballers or Bevo is not teaching them in a way they understand.

I don't know what the answer is but it very much appears to me to be a confidence in their own ability / psychological issue. It happens again and again and again. Saturday night is the worst I've seen us in a very long time and Garcia, McNeil and West at. al. are not going to change that. They may set examples but but they're all mediocre young players. It has to be better at the top.

We'll beat the Saints next week and then trundle through the season beating most teams around us and pulling out a 'our Grand Final' win late in the season against a top 4 side. Sounds good but we're bound to drop two games against bottom 4 teams just to balance it all out.

It's what happens because regardless of the talent on the list the issue is upstairs and until we remedy that we're an 8-12 team. Is it just bumbling around a new game plan? I'm not convinced most of the utter crap we witnessed on Saturday night we're jittery skills errors. It was frankly embarrassing.

Would be stoked to be proven wrong and go on and win the next 4 but history suggests otherwise.

[MrMahatma]

Yeah this list is completely untrustworthy and we either have a team of dumb footballers or Bevo is not teaching them in a way they understand.

I don't know what the answer is but it very much appears to me to be a confidence in their own ability / psychological issue. It happens again and again and again. Saturday night is the worst I've seen us in a very long time and Garcia, McNeil and West at. al. are not going to change that. They may set examples but but they're all mediocre young players. It has to be better at the top.

We'll beat the Saints next week and then trundle through the season beating most teams around us and pulling out a 'our Grand Final' win late in the season against a top 4 side. Sounds good but we're bound to drop two games against bottom 4 teams just to balance it all out.

It's what happens because regardless of the talent on the list the issue is upstairs and until we remedy that we're an 8-12 team. Is it just bumbling around a new game plan? I'm not convinced most of the utter crap we witnessed on Saturday night we're jittery skills errors. It was frankly embarrassing.

Would be stoked to be proven wrong and go on and win the next 4 but history suggests otherwise.

Ross Lyon coaching the Saints gives me nightmares. I'm not so sure we win next week unless something significant changes for us.

[josie]

These run ons from oppositions clearing the centre bounce with their strong mids has happened so many times. The club has to try something different, including a hard tag and sacrificing one’s own stats. If we don’t address it we won’t make top 4 and struggle to make top 8. It’s so deflating. That and our all too regular woeful delivery into our F50.

I’m hoping Lade can speak up and change this now, not when season is dead and buried and we’ve wasted another year of prime Bont. I’m worried we’ll start to disenfranchise Naughts and he’ll start looking at offers elsewhere.

[derb]

I honestly think we need a new face in the midfield. It looks stale and stagnant.

West, Garcia or even McLean. All 3 are great prospects

[DOG GOD]

Ross Lyon coaching the Saints gives me nightmares. I'm not so sure we win next week unless something significant changes for us.

Totally agree…I still have nightmares of that Ross Lyon lead saints in those prelims.
Even with that injury list, it would not surprise me at all.

[Mantis]

I honestly think we need a new face in the midfield. It looks stale and stagnant.

West, Garcia or even McLean. All 3 are great prospects

Who gets sacrificed?

Of our 5 core mids (Bont, Macrae, Libba, Treloar and Smith) the lowest output in terms of possessions was Bont with 25… not saying we don’t need a change, but what roles are one of these players transferred to?

[WBFC4FFC]

Who gets sacrificed?

Of our 5 core mids (Bont, Macrae, Libba, Treloar and Smith) the lowest output in terms of possessions was Bont with 25… not saying we don’t need a change, but what roles are one of these players transferred to?

Smith to the Wing for West in the centre for the bounces? Has to show form though to be picked.

Aside from that, the gaping whole going into the game was the crumbers up forward, given the injuries (West, Jones, Vandermeer and probably lack of form of West and Garcia (or else why did they not get picked ahead of Hannan).

[DOG GOD]

Who gets sacrificed?

Of our 5 core mids (Bont, Macrae, Libba, Treloar and Smith) the lowest output in terms of possessions was Bont with 25… not saying we don’t need a change, but what roles are one of these players transferred to?

Sacrifice them all. None had a defensive bone in their body. Get a few in there that will sacrifice their stats for the good of the team. Macrae to a wing would be my first move.

[Bullies]

Ross Lyon coaching the Saints gives me nightmares. I'm not so sure we win next week unless something significant changes for us. Agree and he will be happy for us to bomb it long as he will have 18 players down back. He will then open up in the last 15 minutes of the 4th quarter. We won't know how to handle it.

[derb]

Who gets sacrificed?

Of our 5 core mids (Bont, Macrae, Libba, Treloar and Smith) the lowest output in terms of possessions was Bont with 25… not saying we don’t need a change, but what roles are one of these players transferred to?

I'm leaning towards Smith.

He's played his best in 2021 as a wing with the occasional centre bounce attendance.

The biggest question is who do we choose: west or Garcia?

[Jasper]

I'm leaning towards Smith.

He's played his best in 2021 as a wing with the occasional centre bounce attendance.

The biggest question is who do we choose: west or Garcia?

Has to be West doesnt it?

[jeemak]

We need a tagger. A guy who has limitations - perhaps many limitations - but throws himself at every contest as an instinct, not an instruction.
I know he has flaws but is it time to get West up to speed as a tagger rather than a forward?
We nail easy set shots and we're actually level at 3/4 time - stop a few of their 'clean' clearances, same deal. Libba has done it sometimes but we need him hunting the ball. Bont isn't quick, and Macrae is an accumulator not a stopper.


A couple of years back I mentioned that Hewett should have been our target and could be a tagger for us given that ethic of attack and defense could have been invaluable for us. Someone like Ports Drew could be a decent option as well.
Unless we are prepared to utilise someone in that role then it's probably pointless chasing a tagger.

Why do we need Libba hunting the ball, instead of having a bit of balance in his game and occasionally holding back instead of going all out attack? He's played defencively or neutrally before, what's changed other than instruction or ego?

Jack has shown he can win a ground ball and also play defencively, what's stopping him from sharing that load? Is it instruction or ego?

How do you play a Hewitt type if you've already got to feed midfield minutes to Bont, Libba, Macrae, Treloar and Smith? We just need our current players to sacrifice a part of their games, sometimes, and things will be OK. I'm sick of the excuses.

[GVGjr]

Why do we need Libba hunting the ball, instead of having a bit of balance in his game and occasionally holding back instead of going all out attack? He's played defencively or neutrally before, what's changed other than instruction or ego?

Jack has shown he can win a ground ball and also play defencively, what's stopping him from sharing that load? Is it instruction or ego?

How do you play a Hewitt type if you've already got to feed midfield minutes to Bont, Libba, Macrae, Treloar and Smith? We just need our current players to sacrifice a part of their games, sometimes, and things will be OK. I'm sick of the excuses.

Hewett at Sydney was a back flanker and mid. My initial opinion on him when he looked likely to leave Sydney was to use him off HB and have him take some lock down roles in our midfield. We don't appear to want players to make sacrifices to their natural game and I think it hurts us.

[jeemak]

Hewett at Sydney was a back flanker and mid. My initial opinion on him when he looked likely to leave Sydney was to use him off HB and have him take some lock down roles in our midfield. We don't appear to want players to make sacrifices to their natural game and I think it hurts us.

We're absolutely aligned here in terms of it hurting us, however, it would be completely insane for the coaching not to at least plan for the odd occasion where being neutral or defencive is prioritised.

[azabob]

Why do we need Libba hunting the ball, instead of having a bit of balance in his game and occasionally holding back instead of going all out attack? He's played defencively or neutrally before, what's changed other than instruction or ego?

Jack has shown he can win a ground ball and also play defencively, what's stopping him from sharing that load? Is it instruction or ego?

How do you play a Hewitt type if you've already got to feed midfield minutes to Bont, Libba, Macrae, Treloar and Smith? We just need our current players to sacrifice a part of their games, sometimes, and things will be OK. I'm sick of the excuses.


We don't appear to want players to make sacrifices to their natural game and I think it hurts us.

How much does Beveridge ego play into it?

[GVGjr]

How much does Beveridge ego play into it?

Not sure, I wonder if has just come to the realization that he doesn't have the cattle capable of sacrificing their games.
I don't think we like to win ugly.

[Grantysghost]

I don't think we like to win

^^^^

[mjp]

Not sure, I wonder if has just come to the realization that he doesn't have the cattle capable of sacrificing their games.
I don't think we like to win ugly.

I'm not sure that's the case mate.

I think people will make incredible sacrifices to achieve things they believe are important...but someone has to ASK them too...

[GVGjr]

I'm not sure that's the case mate.

I think people will make incredible sacrifices to achieve things they believe are important...but someone has to ASK them too...

You're probably right but all the rumors of Dunks not wanting to ruck and English not wanting to play forward much that we seemed to have accommodated. We also have a midfield with a number of A grade players who don't tighten up when the game seems to warrant it or play specific roles has me baffled if we've tried and just thought attack is our only option.

[Uninformed]

Another thought I had on a 'solution' relates to what I have read on the pre-season training thread. By the descriptions we seemed to train a lot for executing under pressure. I wonder if we were doing a lot of practice of applying extreme and intense pressure? Thinking back to the McCartney wrestling sessions. Question for the regular training watchers really.

[GVGjr]

I'm not sure that's the case mate.

I think people will make incredible sacrifices to achieve things they believe are important...but someone has to ASK them too...

I read this from Rory Laird this morning and thought of your comments on this thread.

“GWS didn’t put a hard tag on, but made an emphasis around stoppages not to (let us) get any connection,” Laird said. “Not only with me, but we found it hard throughout the whole midfield to get some ruck-mid connect. Credit to them, they beat us not only around the ground, but especially at CB (centre bounces). They played it really well and I struggled to get involved within the game.”

The Crows superstar was also asked about what GWS did specifically to shut down their midfield’s connection and what adjustments he can make personally for next time if it happens again.

“I probably could’ve gotten on the move a bit more personally and actually look to get through the stoppage and move around a bit more. I struggled to actually cover the ground on the weekend. The conditions I found really challenging personally, and I think a lot of guys did on both teams. There was a lot of cramping going on by the end of the game.

“I probably could’ve been on the move a bit more or looked to free up someone else. I probably made it easier for them to be able to sit on me and there’s some big bodies in there (GWS mids), so I had to get off them a bit more,” Laird said.

[Curly5]

There’s no fix apart from sticking at it. You don’t train all preseason then change after 1 match.

We have to assume the coaches know why things are happening, and they’re trying to get the players to change a few things in order to get it right.

We're going to want to see a better effort this week, against a previously lowlyteam that's up and about, with a new coach. Otherwise it's seriously worrying.

[GVGjr]

We're going to want to see a better effort this week, against a previously lowlyteam that's up and about, with a new coach. Otherwise it's seriously worrying.

It was such a poor result for us that unfortunately another poor performance against the Saints will get amplified.