3 things I've learned - R2 vs StKilda

[GVGjr]

Please list 3 things you have learned from tonight's match against the Saints.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[KT31]

That I’m not cut out travelling to games and watching the lack lustre, heartless performances we continue to dish up.

[bulldogtragic]

1. The players aren’t playing for Bevo or listening to him
2. Goal kicking and skills are not improving - whose responsibility is this
3. If this continues, some good players will leave, our picks and salary cap space won’t attract players and we will be sprinting into a rebuild sooner than anyone thought possible

[The Adelaide Connection]

1. We don’t just look shit against contenders, half a bottom 4 team can even do that to us.
2. We are slow. Slow of mind. Slow physically. Slow to change a game plan that other teams know how to beat.
3. A week is a long time in footy. Two weeks of playing like that is an eternity. We are at rock bottom, but I guess the only way is up?

[Mofra]

1. We are going to get out-run by most teams
2. Sam Darcy is going to be a superstar any position he plays
3. We have a decision to make - 'good' players or 'effort' players, because right now (apart from Bont) it's an either/or proposition

[lemmon]

2. Sam Darcy is going to be a superstar any position he plays


Keen to hear more about that one, Mofra. Agree that he has a big future but I thought he was a passenger tonight.

[1eyedog]

Darcy shouldn't be playing full stop.

[Mofra]

Keen to hear more about that one, Mofra. Agree that he has a big future but I thought he was a passenger tonight.
Got his hands to it plenty of times.
Compared to most 210cm kids who have had half of a pre-season for their entire careers, he's a mile ahead of where he should be.

[Mantis]

1. We are going to get out-run by most teams
2. Sam Darcy is going to be a superstar any position he plays
3. We have a decision to make - 'good' players or 'effort' players, because right now (apart from Bont) it's an either/or proposition

Was it Sam’s kick, mark or handball that lead you to make this call?

[Grantysghost]

1. A few players appear to have hit the down slope of their careers at the same time.
2. English will be fine as a ruck.
3. Bevo may be out of salty dogs.

[AshMac]

1. We look slow and unfit in round 2
2. All the problem of last year are magnified, doesn?t look like anything has improved in the off-season
3. It?s going to be a very long season

[GVGjr]

Darcy shouldn't be playing full stop.

I suggested that a few months back

[Dry Rot]

1. We have no system across the three lines, and no system connecting those lines e.g. shocking delivery to the forwards.

2. We are slow, unfit and the bereft of confidence. Our skills have seriously gone backwards, eg unforced errors by foot.

3. West and Garcia stay. Neither are elite players but relative to the rest the side, they bring elite effort and hardness.

[JanLorMill]

2. English will be fine as a ruck.

Yes we are going places with him as ruck. Maybe he shaded Marshall slightly in the stats but Marshall way more influential in the result but hey English in only 26.

[Virgin-Dog]

1. Our coaching is a problem. I think I’m ready to admit that now
2. Bruce in defence might actually work
3. Our defence is the scapegoat. Our midfield is the issue. All this talk about having one of the best in the comp when they perform like one of the worst. Macrae and Smith were absolutely awful for large chunks of tonight. Daniel in the middle is simply not going to work.

[westbulldog]

1.It is now time to swing the axe very hard whether that be players, coaches or both, you change a losing game unless we want to accept this mediocrity and reputations should count for nothing from this point on.
2.Daniel is currently a liability, as are several others.
3 Cordy, Young, Dunkley and Hunter are laughing at our club which is an embarrassment to all supporters.

[SonofScray]

1. I was right then, I am right now. I don’t like it, but that’s just the facts of the matter. Bevo has to go.
2. Chris Gran5 might have to go too.
3. Watson Wheeler might have to go too. Pending how 1 and 2 are handled and how quickly.

[GVGjr]

1. I was right then, I am right now. I don’t like it, but that’s just the facts of the matter. Bevo has to go.
2. Chris Gran5 might have to go too.
3. Watson Wheeler might have to go too. Pending how 1 and 2 are handled and how quickly.

SoS, In my way of thinking this is a footy department challenge to resolve and while Grant heads it up it lets not chuck everyone under the bus just yet.

[SonofScray]

SoS, In my way of thinking this is a footy department challenge to resolve and while Grant heads it up it lets not chuck everyone under the bus just yet.

If we sit on our hands, things will get toxic, quickly.

Clubs are going past us at a rate of knots. Our self assessment of where we were at and corrective actions over summer seem to have been off the mark. This deep into a coaching tenure and with franchise players in their prime, that’s a disaster.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

1. We are in trouble. As a club, we have broken apart after that Grand Final. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally. This isn't a two week lapse.

2. Question marks have to be asked of the football department. Grant and Baines particularly. Why would you re-sign Bevo before the start of the year after his dreadful 2022? Makes zero sense. We re-signed a coach based on what he did in 2016 and 2021 - that's really poor.

3. We need to rebuild. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the truth. Players at or near the end include Jones, Keath, Libba, Treloar, Crozier, Duryea, Bruce, Lobb. Our fringe players largely are not up to standard and our stars are stale (besides probably Bont and Naughton). We have zero genuine young stars coming through besides Darcy and Marra, and honestly, I'm not convinced on Marra yet. We recruited to contend in 2023 but we're nowhere near it and the list is getting worse before it gets better.

[Vred]

1. Bevo
2. Must
3. Go

Nothing else. That's it. Bevo must be given the tap on the shoulder, Grant, and anyone who approved his contract extension also needs to go with him. External review needed, nothing internal, and new coach with new ideas asap.

[The bulldog tragician]

1. We are in trouble. As a club, we have broken apart after that Grand Final. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally. This isn't a two week lapse.

2. Question marks have to be asked of the football department. Grant and Baines particularly. Why would you re-sign Bevo before the start of the year after his dreadful 2022? Makes zero sense. We re-signed a coach based on what he did in 2016 and 2021 - that's really poor.

3. We need to rebuild. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the truth. Players at or near the end include Jones, Keath, Libba, Treloar, Crozier, Duryea, Bruce, Lobb. Our fringe players largely are not up to standard and our stars are stale (besides probably Bont and Naughton). We have zero genuine young stars coming through besides Darcy and Marra, and honestly, I'm not convinced on Marra yet. We recruited to contend in 2023 but we're nowhere near it and the list is getting worse before it gets better.

This is exactly right. It breaks my heart, but you’ve nailed it.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

1. We are in trouble. As a club, we have broken apart after that Grand Final. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally. This isn't a two week lapse.

2. Question marks have to be asked of the football department. Grant and Baines particularly. Why would you re-sign Bevo before the start of the year after his dreadful 2022? Makes zero sense. We re-signed a coach based on what he did in 2016 and 2021 - that's really poor.

3. We need to rebuild. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the truth. Players at or near the end include Jones, Keath, Libba, Treloar, Crozier, Duryea, Bruce, Lobb. Our fringe players largely are not up to standard and our stars are stale (besides probably Bont and Naughton). We have zero genuine young stars coming through besides Darcy and Marra, and honestly, I'm not convinced on Marra yet. We recruited to contend in 2023 but we're nowhere near it and the list is getting worse before it gets better.

Yep. Feels like we're north from the final days of Brad Scott. We're in for some lean years.

[1eyedog]

1. I was right then, I am right now. I don’t like it, but that’s just the facts of the matter. Bevo has to go.
2. Chris Gran5 might have to go too.
3. Watson Wheeler might have to go too. Pending how 1 and 2 are handled and how quickly.

The quicker we turn the coaching group over the better but it will never happen.

[F'scary]

JUH = jack watts
Keath and macrae should retire immediately.
Bailey Williams is VFL standard.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yeah I don't see it with Marra. Mind you if he goes to another club he'll probably light it up.

Cordy kicked 2 tonight up forward. Can't remember the last time he did that for us. Our gameplan is horrendous.

[F'scary]

1. We are in trouble. As a club, we have broken apart after that Grand Final. Spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally. This isn't a two week lapse.

2. Question marks have to be asked of the football department. Grant and Baines particularly. Why would you re-sign Bevo before the start of the year after his dreadful 2022? Makes zero sense. We re-signed a coach based on what he did in 2016 and 2021 - that's really poor.

3. We need to rebuild. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the truth. Players at or near the end include Jones, Keath, Libba, Treloar, Crozier, Duryea, Bruce, Lobb. Our fringe players largely are not up to standard and our stars are stale (besides probably Bont and Naughton). We have zero genuine young stars coming through besides Darcy and Marra, and honestly, I'm not convinced on Marra yet. We recruited to contend in 2023 but we're nowhere near it and the list is getting worse before it gets better.


Sorry, but isn't it obvious by now he is the new Jack Watts.

[derb]

So harsh on Jamarra. He had an off night but is building.

The hardest position on the ground is to be a forward in this Bulldogs side.

I wonder what it would look like if Naughton didn't fly for every single mark.

[muzzyahoy]

1. They currently lack the ability to play 2023 football
2. I think Bevo's lost the group
3. If they're not fit enough to run enough, there's no way they'll win enough. Solid wooden spoon contenders
4. Bailey Smith must have a giant bonus based around metres gained ONLY.

[Grantysghost]

Sorry, but isn't it obvious by now he is the new Jack Watts.

Cmon now, very tough on a young guy. Remember they don’t pick themselves at #1 and I’m sure you weren’t saying that after the Melbourne game last year.

He had a poor night for sure, think he was caught holding it maybe 4 times but generally he was trying to make something happen which is more than I can say for a few of our more senior players.

[SonofScray]

Cmon now, very tough on a young guy. Remember they don’t pick themselves at #1 and I’m sure you weren’t saying that after the Melbourne game last year.

He had a poor night for sure, think he was caught holding it maybe 4 times but generally he was trying to make something happen which is more than I can say for a few of our more senior players.

Agree. His kicking amplifies the frustration, but at least he was trying to make something happen. Marra will be OK.

He is a young KPF on the wrong end of a team that has no cohesion, poor skills, no plan and no confidence in what they are doing.

[The Underdog]

The quicker we turn the coaching group over the better but it will never happen.

Doing it after Round 2 would set a precedent, that?s for sure. It?s not going to happen and it shouldn?t yet, but Bevo is certainly running out of the goodwill that 2 GF?s brings. Not sure I?ve ever seen a season turn so toxic so quickly, maybe 2018 shades it.

[SonofScray]

Doing it after Round 2 would set a precedent, that?s for sure. It?s not going to happen and it shouldn?t yet, but Bevo is certainly running out of the goodwill that 2 GF?s brings. Not sure I?ve ever seen a season turn so toxic so quickly, maybe 2018 shades it.

The time to act is now.

Every week we wait is a week wasted.

[D Mitchell]

Yes we are going places with him as ruck. Maybe he shaded Marshall slightly in the stats but Marshall way more influential in the result but hey English in only 26.
At 26, he should be at his peak. With the team playing so poorly, he has to be supported by another ruckman. Sweet isn?t going to look any worse.

[Grantysghost]

At 26, he should be at his peak. With the team playing so poorly, he has to be supported by another ruckman. Sweet isn?t going to look any worse.

Wait, English was great last night how are we potting his game? Genuine question.

[lemmon]

Just sticking to learnings - there was a lot we'd already seen from this group last night:

1. Garcia is a long way ahead of West. Thought he brought
some speed and aggression.
2. Crozier still has a role to play. I thought his defensive work was very solid last night
3. Something needs to be done with Macrae. This isn't just a slump but I can't remember the last player who looked cooked at 29. I wonder how he'd go with the Matt Boyd move to half back, with Caleb coming up the other way into the middle.

[Bullies]

1. We don't look fit or we are very slow (possibly both). Dunks could be right about how much more running the Lions do during the pre season. (He is also a massive loss. Probably the only one who showed any leadership qualities).

2. Why do we give long term contracts to the likes of Keath, Crozier, Hannan, O'Brien, Bruce etc. Do they think clubs will come for them when they get into their 30's.

3. We need a change and it needs to start with the Admin/Coaching group as it will be hard to recover if we have to rebuild.

[SonofScray]

Just sticking to learnings - there was a lot we'd already seen from this group last night:

1. Garcia is a long way ahead of West. Thought he brought
some speed and aggression.
2. Crozier still has a role to play. I thought his defensive work was very solid last night
3. Something needs to be done with Macrae. This isn't just a slump but I can't remember the last player who looked cooked at 29. I wonder how he'd go with the Matt Boyd move to half back, with Caleb coming up the other way into the middle.

Said similar to my mate at the game. Jack is too good a player to write off just yet, but he’s going to need a tweak in his role to keep going at the level we expect from him. I wonder about how he’d take it.

[Mavericks]

1. I want Peter Gordon back.
2. It is official, Bevo has finally lost the players.
3. If Bevo has any integrity he resigns this week.

[Danjul]

Yeah I don't see it with Marra. Mind you if he goes to another club he'll probably light it up.

Cordy kicked 2 tonight up forward. Can't remember the last time he did that for us. Our gameplan is horrendous.
Best game I have seen from Cordy. Nice goals and was able to nullify English?s ruck work to a significant extent . Played a smart game.

[Danjul]

was supposed to be a reply to:

Wait, English was great last night how are we potting his game? Genuine question.

by Grantysghost.



I watched English very closely last night. He reads the play very well, great mark and very nice kick. He has developed very well from where he was just a couple of years ago. Saints had no comparable player. But we got no drive from his ruck work.

Cordy was 10 cm shorter and at least 10 kg lighter. In ruck contests he focused on English's body, hitting it with beautiful timing. I expected English to be dominant but in many cases the outcome was neutral.

Marshall was stronger and able to approach English the way Gawn does. On a couple of occasions in contests in front of us (sitting on the boundary) he held his opponent out and almost handed the ball to his rovers.

English had a very good game, contributing more than a handful of others combined, but his ruck work generated no momentum and didn't set up other teammates. He is a key position player. I would have him at CHB. He would be impassable and a consistent match winner.

[GVGjr]

1. I want Peter Gordon back.
2. It is official, Bevo has finally lost the players.
3. If Bevo has any integrity he resigns this week.

Mavs, we are all hurting but expecting a resignation isn't actually a good outcome for us.

[JanLorMill]

Wait, English was great last night how are we potting his game? Genuine question.
If that is English’s great as our ruck(one of the most influential positions) and we lose by 50 points then the problems are huge.

[W W Biscuit]

Doing it after Round 2 would set a precedent, that?s for sure. It?s not going to happen and it shouldn?t yet, but Bevo is certainly running out of the goodwill that 2 GF?s brings. Not sure I?ve ever seen a season turn so toxic so quickly, maybe 2018 shades it.

The precedent was set in 1994, when Terry Wheeler was sacked after Round 2 following a belting down at Kardinia Park by our nemesis Geelong. I thought that Wheels was hard done by - Bevo, not so much...if it happens.

[Hotdog60]

We are too nice we don't have enough in your face players.
It's time to start manning up and not give the opposition too much leg rope. If you're not that quick don't give your opponent space to get further away.
Jogging back to defense has to change if they start moving you have to start moving to not just the one chasing tail.

Also if Cordy was a big help on Ross's strategy then we haven't changed the game plan from last year.

[azabob]

1. The players are no where as bonded as Beveridge would like us to believe
2. The players are too content; happy to turn up and collect a cheque.
3. The coaches are too content also; clearly no change in game plan or defensive intent
4. Fitness is above the shoulders; it’s not a reason for the situation we are in. Saints were out numbering us at the contest during the first quarter.

[anfo27]

1. The players are no where as bonded as Beveridge would like us to believe
2. The players are too content; happy to turn up and collect a cheque.
3. The coaches are too content also; clearly no change in game plan or defensive intent
4. Fitness is above the shoulders; it’s not a reason for the situation we are in. Saints were out numbering us at the contest during the first quarter.

Can't agree with that. It would be no fun being a player at the club atm. They are playing like they aren't enjoying it as well. Yeah they get paid well but all players want to win.

[Mavericks]

I would prefer a resignation than a sacking. The longer this festers the more damage to the club and the greater chance a rift occurs between the club and premiership coach, and that would be a terrible outcome.

[Happy Days]

1. I used to think that Baz’s ceiling was West Coast Chris Judd. Now I think it’s Ed Langdon and I’d be stoked if he even got there.

2. Macrae isn’t an elite midfielder anymore. Elite midfielders have to, you know, try.

3. Bevo isn’t as willing to be tactile as he used to be. It was one of his great strengths and what made him so refreshing after the curmudgeonly McCartney. There’s a hesitancy to deviate that’s permeating the playing group and leading to the scared, listless football we’re playing.

[Virgin-Dog]

1. I used to think that Baz’s ceiling was West Coast Chris Judd. Now I think it’s Ed Langdon and I’d be stoked if he even got there.

2. Macrae isn’t an elite midfielder anymore. Elite midfielders have to, you know, try.

3. Bevo isn’t as willing to be tactile as he used to be. It was one of his great strengths and what made him so refreshing after the curmudgeonly McCartney. There’s a hesitancy to deviate that’s permeating the playing group and leading to the scared, listless football we’re playing.
Watched a lot of Smith’s U18 footy, and honestly thought he’d be the next Dangerfield. Hadn’t been that hyped on a junior probably ever. Since entering senior footy he’s lost all his foot skills and defensive game.
Strongly agree on point 2.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

At 26, he should be at his peak. With the team playing so poorly, he has to be supported by another ruckman. Sweet isn?t going to look any worse.

Sweet unfortunately looks worse when i watch him in the reserves including yesterday.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Watched a lot of Smith’s U18 footy, and honestly thought he’d be the next Dangerfield. Hadn’t been that hyped on a junior probably ever. Since entering senior footy he’s lost all his foot skills and defensive game.
Strongly agree on point 2.

It's not as simple as this but Smith entered the system as a fresh faced kid with extreme discipline, who didn't drink, and who actually overtrained.

He's now questionable at best with discipline, clearly enjoys a drink/the social lifestyle, and has put a lot of time and energy into his profile.

These aren't sole reasons for his plateau, clearly he is still fit, but I'd suggest his priorities have shifted.

[westbulldog]

1. Our coaching group is deficient in being clearly unable to stop an opposition's run which loses us games e.g the 2021 GF, the 2022 debacle v Freo, Rd 1 2023 v Melbourne, Rd 2 2023 v St Kilda.
2. The team with a couple of exceptions seems totally underdone and ill prepared in terms of match fitness, motivation or both.
3. We still do not have a goalkicking coach but we do have an invisible President (Gordon and Smorgon would be front and centre right now).

[D Mitchell]

1. The era of possession footy has passed. The defenders' first instinct on gaining possession is to look across the field rather than down, so the ball is chipped around at half back, ends up moving forward down the opposite wing and meanwhile the opposition has set up their defence.

2. 2nd and 3rd efforts have largely disappeared from most player's repertoire.

3. Zone defence either doesn't work or our players just can't do it properly.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Do we think this group can turn things around with a new coaching unit or does this group of players not have it and we also need a rebuild?

I think we need a rebuild. The midfield is shocking. I'd be offering up Smith for some decent draft capital.

[D Mitchell]

Do we think this group can turn things around with a new coaching unit or does this group of players not have it and we also need a rebuild?

I think we need a rebuild. The midfield is shocking. I'd be offering up Smith for some decent draft capital.

That's a good question. The Bont-Mcrae-Libber midfield worked well in the handballs-in-a-telephone-box era of possession footy, perhaps the more direct style requires faster, more mobile big-bodied mids, Oliver and Petracca. I wouldn't trade Smith, though, he's among the few who never give up.

[Danjul]

Sweet unfortunately looks worse when i watch him in the reserves including yesterday.
It is either Sweet or we get Cordy back as second ruck.

We were happy to waste Naughton there (cost measured in goals) and we also used Darcy In the last 3 games. All ineffective results we have been happy to replay for a long time.

In the Ballarat game English was no better in the ruck duels than Sweet .

So minimal downside from where we are now. We can?t keep rehashing what?s failing.

[Grantysghost]

It is either Sweet or we get Cordy back as second ruck.

We were happy to waste Naughton there (cost measured in goals) and we also used Darcy In the last 3 games. All ineffective results we have been happy to replay for a long time.

In the Ballarat game English was no better in the ruck duels than Sweet .

So minimal downside from where we are now. We can?t keep rehashing what?s failing.

English has been our best player this year I don't really understand why we'd change the only thing that's working.
This argument may have once had merit, pushing it now though really seems like flogging a dead horse in lieu of arguments which explain the current struggles.

[1eyedog]

That's a good question. The Bont-Mcrae-Libber midfield worked well in the handballs-in-a-telephone-box era of possession footy, perhaps the more direct style requires faster, more mobile big-bodied mids, Oliver and Petracca. I wouldn't trade Smith, though, he's among the few who never give up.

We had Treloar and Smith in the team last week who are supposedly hard bodied explosive mids yet we still got towelled up.

[merantau]

1. Our skills are poor.
2. We have lost the ability to lead into space.
3. We can't nail set shots. Snaps? Forget 'em.

[1eyedog]

1. Our skills are poor.
2. We have lost the ability to lead into space.
3. We can't nail set shots. Snaps? Forget 'em.

#1 is definitely a big issue. We've been able to paper over the cracks re. a one-paced midfield with top 8 level skills that have completely deserted us.

[bornadog]

3. Our defence is the scapegoat. Our midfield is the issue. All this talk about having one of the best in the comp when they perform like one of the worst. Macrae and Smith were absolutely awful for large chunks of tonight. Daniel in the middle is simply not going to work.

Totally agree, we only had 37 inside 50s, the mids couldn't get the ball past the f50 line and we starved the forwards of opportunity.

At one stage, I think it was the 3rd quarter, I looked at the stats and all we had was 23 inside 50s. This is the team in the past has had the ball inside 50 - 60 plus times a game.

[D Mitchell]

We had Treloar and Smith in the team last week who are supposedly hard bodied explosive mids yet we still got towelled up. Neither Treloar nor Smith
(a) are monsters like the Melbourne 2;
(b) played inside.
The Melbourne 2 are Bont, Mcrae and Libber with pace and directed to go forward.

[Danjul]

English has been our best player this year I don't really understand why we'd change the only thing that's working.
This argument may have once had merit, pushing it now though really seems like flogging a dead horse in lieu of arguments which explain the current struggles.


We are still searching for arguments which explain what we are seeing. But only those arguments that are politically correct can be mentioned. The only solution is what we have already tried. Conveniently forget it didn?t work before and try it again. Expect a better result.

This week it was Garcia and West would solve everything. Didn?t help at all. The week before it was Lobb?s height and Hannans speed. Didn?t work. The previous game (final) it was Darcy was going to save us. As some expected, no.

This is the problem.

You are not allowed to revisit our successes and retry what seemed to work.

It is all fairytale stuff. Last night JUH was used in the ruck. For the hundredth time, putting a forward into the ruck simply puts them off their game and makes it harder for the others. It just makes things worse.


The fantastic start in 2021 has not been repeated. Why not? Maybe it is because we did something then that we are not doing now.

[Grantysghost]

We are still searching for arguments

Agree I'm completely baffled.

I guess Lobb is the chop out for English. So we had to improvise.
English was sitting off the play when we were in attack so a forward was taking the stoppages.

There's a reluctance with Sweet due to what he brings when he's not in the ruck I assume (guessing).

[bornadog]

Agree I'm completely baffled.

I guess Lobb is the chop out for English. So we had to improvise.
English was sitting off the play when we were in attack so a forward was taking the stoppages.

There's a reluctance with Sweet due to what he brings when he's not in the ruck I assume (guessing).


Sweet is not the answer.
VFL yesterday:
Hitouts - 36 - tick
Kicks 3
HB 7

Conclusion - not good enough

[Danjul]

Agree I'm completely baffled.

I guess Lobb is the chop out for English. So we had to improvise.
English was sitting off the play when we were in attack so a forward was taking the stoppages.

There's a reluctance with Sweet due to what he brings when he's not in the ruck I assume (guessing).

You are perfectly correct.

And what did the others bring when in the ruck? Nothing.

And when not in the ruck? The answer is?absolutely nothing. Once again, absolutely nothing. But it's a politically correct nothing.

Last year Weightman was selected when injured, had one possession and the propaganda said it was a selection masterpiece because it forced a good backman to mind him. When an unfit Bruce got two possessions, another stroke of genius because not getting the footy allowed him to be a general. Fortunately JUH played his best ever game, got 5 goals and a win and confirmed everything was perfect.

Against Melbourne last week at least 6 players had 6 or less disposals. Not relevant because that's a statistic and easily dismissed as too small a sample size??? Did any of them get selected and fail again. You bet. But that?s a good failure. And if the good bloke fails it?s far more acceptable than the bad bloke who might fail (but usually doesn't).

But the truth is: Game after game - next to Nothing can be ok. We are being regularly belted out of the park. Large slices of the game are simply reruns.

Last night our best contributor was the umpires. Three goals in 5 minutes. In the other 105 minutes the whole team scored 2 goals.

I think we have scored 15 goals since half time in the final against Freo. Why have we averaged 1.5 goals a quarter like that?

The fact that Naughton is a superstar is the only allowed official comment, but because he is unreliable is the actual reason. Not a criticism of him but of the game plan. He is a superstar who only copes with the game plan and kicks lots of goals when we play bottom teams. Weightman similar.

But examine the game plan? Oh no, that's been handed down from above via a football prophet.

[Danjul]

Sweet is not the answer.
VFL yesterday:
Hitouts - 36 - tick
Kicks 3
HB 7

Conclusion - not good enough

This year Darcy is averaging 3 disposals and 2 hitouts per game. Good enough? Or do we replace him with someone who might do marginally better?

The fairytale answers are Yes - No, he might be next weeks match winner. I wonder what the professional sport answer is.

And for the record I saw Lobb get only 2 kicks, 4 hb, 3 ho and be criticism free.

[JanLorMill]

Sweet is not the answer.
VFL yesterday:
Hitouts - 36 - tick
Kicks 3
HB 7

Conclusion - not good enough
Ok then just continue with 50 point losses. Personal ruck stats are the not the only measure in why we need another ruck. Nullifying the opposing ruck is another and throwing your weight around is another.

[Happy Days]

I don’t think Sweet is the answer but more to the point I definitely don’t think bringing in anyone who makes us even slower than we are already is the answer.

[mjp]

I don’t think Sweet is the answer but more to the point I definitely don’t think bringing in anyone who makes us even slower than we are already is the answer.

To be fair, everyone looks slow when they don’t have the ball.

[Hotdog60]

Were Sweet's hitouts to advantage?
If most of them were then that gives our more offensive and less defensive mids a better look.
Sweet has his limitations but you would have to ask is getting first use more important with a midfield that can't defend.
Sweet could play the Lobb role while he is out and his input wouldn't any worst than what Lobb currently was giving.

[Grantysghost]

Were Sweet's hitouts to advantage?
If most of them were then that gives our more offensive and less defensive mids a better look.
Sweet has his limitations but you would have to ask is getting first use more important with a midfield that can't defend.
Sweet could play the Lobb role while he is out and his input wouldn't any worst than what Lobb currently was giving.

English has 9 hit outs to advantage so far this season (couldn't break down further).

For comparison :

Marshall : 7.5
Witts : 13

[Danjul]

English has 9 hit outs to advantage so far this season (couldn't break down further).

For comparison :

Marshall : 7.5
Witts : 13

English had 23 ruck contests against Cordy winning 12:7 with 3 to advantage. Is Cordy widely viewed as a ruck? If not, should we expect better? Cordy is giving away at least 10 cm and 15 kg by the looks of it.

Our best performing ruck was the Bont. Contested 1, won 1 with 1 to advantage. He knew to quit while he was ahead.

But I think the problem was Naughton, JUH, and Darcy had 20 ruck contests between them and two of them had terrible games.

Naughton got 2 goals. Would he have gotten more if a genuine ruckman was hitting the ball in his direction?

Do these 20 contests amount to lost opportunities on the forward line?

Should a young forward focus on being a forward. Personally I think they should. After all, we/they are struggling to score at the moment.

[bornadog]

Ok then just continue with 50 point losses. Personal ruck stats are the not the only measure in why we need another ruck. Nullifying the opposing ruck is another and throwing your weight around is another.

Sweet does nothing around the ground. T

Tim had 21 disposals 8 marks and 5 tackles on top of hitouts. Ruck is not our problem.

Yesterday it was getting the ball into actual F50 and giving forwards a chance. 37 inside 50s is not good enough in modern footy.

[D Mitchell]

We had Treloar and Smith in the team last week who are supposedly hard bodied explosive mids yet we still got towelled up.

I wouldn't call either a big-bodied mid. Our 2, Bont & Mcrae, don't explode forward like the Melbourne 2, perhaps because they both lack pace. The collapse in form, application and effort is a mystery to me, the change in what works, from possession footy to explosive footy, is the best I can come up with.

[merantau]

I watched GC and Essendon yesterday. The difference between how they moved the ball and how we moved it was frightening. Players running into space, passes hitting blokes lace out on the chest, someone running by to take a handpass, forwards leading into space and running to meet the ball for a mark and a set shot from inside 50.

The speed of ball movement was very impressive. Furthermore, we are not getting numbers to the contest like we used to.
I'm an optimist but if we don't beat Brisbane we are digging a deep hole. A good performance won't cut it. A win is a must.

[whythelongface]

1. The game on Saturday night was that insipid that I decided to cut my toe nails whilst watching the footy (gross I hear you say). Thus I can multitask- something I new I learnt about myself.
2. Having the ALP win the election here in NSW made Saturday night (just) bearable. There is always a silver lining
3. Bevo is skating on ice thinner than a lake that is thawing out as spring fast approaches- I have been supportive but gee this is surely life support stuff.

[Danjul]

Sweet does nothing around the ground. T

Tim had 21 disposals 8 marks and 5 tackles on top of hitouts. Ruck is not our problem.

Yesterday it was getting the ball into actual F50 and giving forwards a chance. 37 inside 50s is not good enough in modern footy.

34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints scored a goal. At the start of the third quarter they took longer, 45 seconds.

On two other occasions they goaled within 2 minutes of a centre bounce.

on three occasions it took 3 minutes.

Seems like a factor. That?s more goals than we can kick in a whole game.

For comparison.

Against Melbourne in the deluge, where the Dogs touched the ball only 4 times in 5 opposition goals it still took an average of 2 minutes.

Is the Saints engine room really equal to Gawn, Petracca and Oliver?

St Kilda actually had 2 goals on the board in the first two and a half minutes. That?s faster than Melbourne.

In a total of 14 minutes after centre bounces St Kilda kicked more goals than the Dogs could in 110 minutes.

In other words it is the match winning factor.

It doesn?t matter what else happens during any other part of the game. There is no other factor.

[Ozza]

I watched GC and Essendon yesterday. The difference between how they moved the ball and how we moved it was frightening. Players running into space, passes hitting blokes lace out on the chest, someone running by to take a handpass, forwards leading into space and running to meet the ball for a mark and a set shot from inside 50.

The speed of ball movement was very impressive. Furthermore, we are not getting numbers to the contest like we used to.
I'm an optimist but if we don't beat Brisbane we are digging a deep hole. A good performance won't cut it. A win is a must.

I think that is about what the opposition gives you though. It will take Essendon being able to do this against a decent side before I'll be convinced they can move the ball really well.

In terms of the comment about us not getting numbers to the contest - we are certainly intending to. When there is a stoppage we always sent up an extra and the Saints had one behind the footy (usually Wilkie). However, given we are seriously lacking pace, we are not getting our numbers there around the ground.

[1eyedog]

34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints scored a goal. At the start of the third quarter they took longer, 45 seconds.

On two other occasions they goaled within 2 minutes of a centre bounce.

on three occasions it took 3 minutes.

Seems like a factor. That?s more goals than we can kick in a whole game.

For comparison.

Against Melbourne in the deluge, where the Dogs touched the ball only 4 times in 5 opposition goals it still took an average of 2 minutes.

Is the Saints engine room really equal to Gawn, Petracca and Oliver?

St Kilda actually had 2 goals on the board in the first two and a half minutes. That?s faster than Melbourne.

In a total of 14 minutes after centre bounces St Kilda kicked more goals than the Dogs could in 110 minutes.

In other words it is the match winning factor.

It doesn?t matter what else happens during any other part of the game. There is no other factor.

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

[Boots]

1) I am dreading the Lions game
2) a 0-2 start feels like a mountain to climb
3) Everything anyone says about pre-season performance is suspect

[MrMahatma]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

Stoppage coach issue?

[bornadog]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

I thought a number of times we got our hands on the ball in the centre but just didn't get a clearance out of it due to fancy handballs that just went straight to a Saints player. Macrae was one of the culprits most of the night, turning over the ball with stupid handballs.

It was a very sloppy performance from the mids in the centre.

[Sedat]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.
if the premise was changed from "ruck is the only factor" to "our stoppage/clearance game is the only factor", I think the discussion has merit. English is by no means the sole reason when our stoppage/clearance game breaks down - I've been critical of him in the past for his lack of strength and uncompromising competitiveness at stoppage, but there has to be some acountability to very senior, experienced, highly talented mids who are not working anywhere near hard enough on the defensive side of their game on occasions when it is required. And I'm talking about Bulldog royalty like Bont, Macrae and Libba. Conceding massive run-ons in super quick succession has been a familiar feature of our team for a couple of years now - this is not a breakdown of D50, it is a total breakdown further up the ground, either in F50 lack of pressure or in midfield lack of defensive pressure/workrate (or both).

[azabob]

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.


Stoppage coach issue?


I thought a number of times we got our hands on the ball in the centre but just didn't get a clearance out of it due to fancy handballs that just went straight to a Saints player. Macrae was one of the culprits most of the night, turning over the ball with stupid handballs.

It was a very sloppy performance from the mids in the centre.


if the premise was changed from "ruck is the only factor" to "our stoppage/clearance game is the only factor", I think the discussion has merit..

Great analysis 1eye.
Clearly our game has been based on numbers at the contest and keep the ball moving in tight spaces and get it to a player in the open.
The opposition have caught onto this fact and our game plan and players have not evolved.

Did we look to change this method during the preseason or are we chips all in with it? If we are all in, the future looks bleak, very bleak.

[bornadog]

Great analysis 1eye.
Clearly our game has been based on numbers at the contest and keep the ball moving in tight spaces and get it to a player in the open.
The opposition have caught onto this fact and our game plan and players have not evolved.

Did we look to change this method during the preseason or are we chips all in with it? If we are all in, the future looks bleak, very bleak.

Do we think now that Lade has come and in charge of the midfield that he has tried to change things up with the setup and it is failing?

He has certainly helped Tim, but the mids are not performing.

[Prince Imperial]

I don't have access to the final hit out to advantage stats but they were shown on the scoreboard a few times and at one stage were 8-3 in English's favour over Marshall. I thought overall English was one of our best.

Our mids are not adjusting to having a more competitive English and until they do we will continue to struggle.

[1eyedog]

Stoppage coach issue?

I honestly have no idea we don't seem to have changed up personnel in there so I feel opposition coaches have worked it out.


if the premise was changed from "ruck is the only factor" to "our stoppage/clearance game is the only factor", I think the discussion has merit. English is by no means the sole reason when our stoppage/clearance game breaks down - I've been critical of him in the past for his lack of strength and uncompromising competitiveness at stoppage, but there has to be some acountability to very senior, experienced, highly talented mids who are not working anywhere near hard enough on the defensive side of their game on occasions when it is required. And I'm talking about Bulldog royalty like Bont, Macrae and Libba. Conceding massive run-ons in super quick succession has been a familiar feature of our team for a couple of years now - this is not a breakdown of D50, it is a total breakdown further up the ground, either in F50 lack of pressure or in midfield lack of defensive pressure/workrate (or both).

100% agree. I thought Libba in particular was really down on Saturday night. I haven't even looked at his stats but the Saints were ants on candy with him all night.


Great analysis 1eye.
Clearly our game has been based on numbers at the contest and keep the ball moving in tight spaces and get it to a player in the open.
The opposition have caught onto this fact and our game plan and players have not evolved.

Did we look to change this method during the preseason or are we chips all in with it? If we are all in, the future looks bleak, very bleak.

We don't seem to have created any pont of difference to what we've done over the past few years so it is a concern. A mate at the game suggested we move Dale into the middle as he'd played midfield across his first few years and had played well there at times. Discussions like this (and throwing Daniel in the midfield) tell me that we're aware of the problem as supporters and as a club but whatever we're doing isn't working (or hasn't worked so far).

[mjp]

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

1/. Defenders just play on their men. They don't run off, they don't help each other. At the end of the game, they want to be able to say 'I kept my man quiet'. Of course, ball movement suffers MASSIVELY!

2/. Forwards wont come at the foot. They all want to be 'the target' and 'in range'....so at the end of the game they can say - hey, look, I was DANGEROUS...look at the scores I was involved in. Never mind that leads to a crowded forward line, players up the ground under pressure (they have no-one coming at them) and oppo intercept marks.

3/. Mids just want stats. Dumb, stupid numbers. How can you have played bad when you had 30?? Don't worry about the oppo - just get NUMBERS 'cos numbers mean you are a good player. Don't they?

We are in a pretty typical cycle right now that every single team from u7's on goes through at some stage...and the challenge is that there is only one way out of it. To refocus on goals that are effort related NOT footy related and just let the process take over. Honestly, all of the talk about inside 50's and scoring shots etc - right now, they are not worth a pinch of shit. Work out what we believe in:

- Tackle target with an associated missed tackle number.
- Secondary stoppages.
- Uncontested marks + HBR by oppo - willingness to chase and defend.
- Uncontested marks by = hbr by us (willingness to run and support one another)....
- Consecutive possessions by oppo...

There's a million of 'em...pick 3. Make the targets achievable but challenging. Bounce the ball.

[mjp]

We don't seem to have created any pont of difference to what we've done over the past few years so it is a concern. A mate at the game suggested we move Dale into the middle as he'd played midfield across his first few years and had played well there at times. Discussions like this (and throwing Daniel in the midfield) tell me that we're aware of the problem as supporters and as a club but whatever we're doing isn't working (or hasn't worked so far).

I'm all for moving blokes around but generally when you're getting done you want to put players in roles where they can be successful and predictable to those around them. I'm down for moving Dale forward if we are 7 points down with 2 minutes to go - why not roll the dice and try and pinch it...but in a game where our effort is so poor, what would you be moving him for? To take him away from his #1 position and give him an excuse for not fighting it out? I would have done the opposite and told the players "I am NOT moving you - we got ourselves into this mess and we are going to fight our way out of it...don't go looking for an escape hatch from your current situation - we are going to fight this out. Head down, bum up, let's go."

[Bulldog4life]

I honestly have no idea we don't seem to have changed up personnel in there so I feel opposition coaches have worked it out.



100% agree. I thought Libba in particular was really down on Saturday night. I haven't even looked at his stats but the Saints were ants on candy with him all night.



We don't seem to have created any pont of difference to what we've done over the past few years so it is a concern. A mate at the game suggested we move Dale into the middle as he'd played midfield across his first few years and had played well there at times. Discussions like this (and throwing Daniel in the midfield) tell me that we're aware of the problem as supporters and as a club but whatever we're doing isn't working (or hasn't worked so far).

I thought during the game why not throw Dale forward. I remember when he went on that goal kicking spree a few years ago.

[1eyedog]

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

1/. Defenders just play on their men. They don't run off, they don't help each other. At the end of the game, they want to be able to say 'I kept my man quiet'. Of course, ball movement suffers MASSIVELY!

2/. Forwards wont come at the foot. They all want to be 'the target' and 'in range'....so at the end of the game they can say - hey, look, I was DANGEROUS...look at the scores I was involved in. Never mind that leads to a crowded forward line, players up the ground under pressure (they have no-one coming at them) and oppo intercept marks.

3/. Mids just want stats. Dumb, stupid numbers. How can you have played bad when you had 30?? Don't worry about the oppo - just get NUMBERS 'cos numbers mean you are a good player. Don't they?

We are in a pretty typical cycle right now that every single team from u7's on goes through at some stage...and the challenge is that there is only one way out of it. To refocus on goals that are effort related NOT footy related and just let the process take over. Honestly, all of the talk about inside 50's and scoring shots etc - right now, they are not worth a pinch of shit. Work out what we believe in:

- Tackle target with an associated missed tackle number.
- Secondary stoppages.
- Uncontested marks + HBR by oppo - willingness to chase and defend.
- Uncontested marks by = hbr by us (willingness to run and support one another)....
- Consecutive possessions by oppo...

There's a million of 'em...pick 3. Make the targets achievable but challenging. Bounce the ball.

If you're suggesting that players release the ball carelessly to attain another stat that is pretty damning.

[mjp]

If you're suggesting that players release the ball carelessly to attain another stat that is pretty damning.

Nah - I didn't really say that. I said in the two examples that came immediately after a 'major break', we tried to force a handball out of congestion in an effort to make something (positive) happen. But what they should have done is simply secure the footy.

If you want me to say that mids chase cheap kicks when their team is losing, well, I 100% think that is the case...damning or otherwise.

[Boots]

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

1/. Defenders just play on their men. They don't run off, they don't help each other. At the end of the game, they want to be able to say 'I kept my man quiet'. Of course, ball movement suffers MASSIVELY!

2/. Forwards wont come at the foot. They all want to be 'the target' and 'in range'....so at the end of the game they can say - hey, look, I was DANGEROUS...look at the scores I was involved in. Never mind that leads to a crowded forward line, players up the ground under pressure (they have no-one coming at them) and oppo intercept marks.

3/. Mids just want stats. Dumb, stupid numbers. How can you have played bad when you had 30?? Don't worry about the oppo - just get NUMBERS 'cos numbers mean you are a good player. Don't they?

We are in a pretty typical cycle right now that every single team from u7's on goes through at some stage...and the challenge is that there is only one way out of it. To refocus on goals that are effort related NOT footy related and just let the process take over. Honestly, all of the talk about inside 50's and scoring shots etc - right now, they are not worth a pinch of shit. Work out what we believe in:

- Tackle target with an associated missed tackle number.
- Secondary stoppages.
- Uncontested marks + HBR by oppo - willingness to chase and defend.
- Uncontested marks by = hbr by us (willingness to run and support one another)....
- Consecutive possessions by oppo...

There's a million of 'em...pick 3. Make the targets achievable but challenging. Bounce the ball.

This is really informative and instinctively smells true to me - when you go into your "shell" of course you do stuff that feels good/gets a pat on the head and it 100% in your own remit and control, rather than the much more nebulous 'everyone's job' stuff. If this is the problem then it's eminently fixable!

What do you mean "come at the foot" for forwards?

[bornadog]

I thought during the game why not throw Dale forward. I remember when he went on that goal kicking spree a few years ago.

We couldn't get the ball into the forward line

[mjp]

What do you mean "come at the foot" for forwards?

Lead AT THE KICKER. Don't run away from them, don't run at 45-degrees, don't run at 90-degrees. Make it an EASY KICK - come at the foot. Why don't they? 'Cos the oppo are in the way and they don't want to be in a physical contest....hence so many wide leads to 'space'....

Plus, if you lead at the kicker, it creates a vacuum behind them into which space the next person can lead...which creates a vacuum deeper into which space a slide can lead...

Football isn't complicated but you do have to:

1/. Run really hard.
2/. Be prepared to run really hard when you are almost certainly not going to get the ball or impact on the oppo.
3/. Be prepared to make strong physical contact with the oppo repeatedly.

[soupman]

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:


Interesting insight.

I've never really looked at our stoppages too closely in that sense, but the examples above mirror the ones we had in that Grand Final and are a huge part of the reason Melbourne had that few minutes of madness.

In that one too we had players (Treloar being the example that most comes to mind) also in a scenario where they have possession of the ball in a tackle and instead of riding it out and either conceding the free or ideally creating another stoppage where we can roll numbers up they instead try to release the ball on a low percentage play.

I guess our midfields philosophy has been that as a good "in close" side we would rather gamble on the ball still being live with us giving it a helping hand and trusting we will be able to take advantage of that over being worried about how a loose ball means the opposition will be primed to break away with it too.

It's certainly something we need to crack down on when we aren't going well.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

We were thrashed in a game we should win
It confirmed how bad we were v Melbourne.
We seem hopeless yet should be contenders.
This era that never was.
The club has some bold decisions to be made this is serious trouble.
We rely on talent yet our skills and mental state are shizenhausen.
Our system is broken or the players are not committed to it.
What happened during preseason and when will we be ready for this season?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Marking out on the lead seems like such a rarity for us. Why? It also made me a little sick to see Cordy have success up forward when he's been mostly a liability for us the past few years. Now I know it's only 1 game, but we're also seeing Young excel with another team in an area we were lacking in. Is it game plan or personnel related? Or both? We just don't seem to get any fluidity in our game. Everything is such a struggle for us but so easy for the opposition. Even when our effort is there, getting a goal looks so arduous.

[1eyedog]

Nah - I didn't really say that. I said in the two examples that came immediately after a 'major break', we tried to force a handball out of congestion in an effort to make something (positive) happen. But what they should have done is simply secure the footy.

If you want me to say that mids chase cheap kicks when their team is losing, well, I 100% think that is the case...damning or otherwise.

Yeah I re-read your post and you're referring to unselfish football for the betterment of the team and I completely agree.

[1eyedog]

Interesting insight.

I've never really looked at our stoppages too closely in that sense, but the examples above mirror the ones we had in that Grand Final and are a huge part of the reason Melbourne had that few minutes of madness.

In that one too we had players (Treloar being the example that most comes to mind) also in a scenario where they have possession of the ball in a tackle and instead of riding it out and either conceding the free or ideally creating another stoppage where we can roll numbers up they instead try to release the ball on a low percentage play.

I guess our midfields philosophy has been that as a good "in close" side we would rather gamble on the ball still being live with us giving it a helping hand and trusting we will be able to take advantage of that over being worried about how a loose ball means the opposition will be primed to break away with it too.

It's certainly something we need to crack down on when we aren't going well.

Ball security can also be used simply to slow the flow of play down, especially relevant when the opposition has momentum or if we're getting beaten in the midfield.

We suck at reading these signs generally though and especially suck at tempo footy. We tried to play that game on the weekend with lots of sideways kicking across half back but it failed miserably as soon as we took a long option. It was a real train wreck.

[Danjul]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

Did you look closely enough?

In the opening seconds Bont is unmanned to the right of our axis moving to goal. No opposition player is near him. English also has Macrae behind (and possibly holding his opponent) on the Saints side of the centre circle.

At the time English hand touches he is reaching back past Marshall who?s front on to the ball. The ball seems to lob up to Macrae and his opponent. Clear in the picture is Bont trying to change direction and Libba still blocking his man. The ball comes out to Macrae who catches it above his head with three Saints all moving towards him. He is immediately tackled by two Saints before he has control of the ball. One has his body and the video shows one has hold of his left hand. The ball comes out (punched?) as Macrae falls to the ground, with 3 Saints chasing it.

Yes, English touched the ball. He did not have Macrae as a deliberate target. There was no tap to anyone. Macrae attempts to salvage the play but can?t because all momentum is on the Saints Dominant side. Macrae would never have been considered a target, both he and libba were blocking opponents . The ball should have gone to where Bont was in the clear, unmanned at all times, with a clear run to goal (with an unmanned Williams coming to assist). Once the actual ruck play was over The ground play was all high pressure contests where luck (or serendipity) rules.

But I do agree with your comment that English had a very good game. His around the ground play was sensational.



.

[Bulldog4life]

We couldn't get the ball into the forward line

True maybe start him forward next game. Have to try something new.

[Danjul]

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/blob:https://www.woof.net.au/9f8908a6-5951-4af2-a984-74231b057232Attempted to add an image.https://www.woof.net.au/forum/blob:https://www.woof.net.au/3d0b0516-c4b0-4fd2-9bfe-4940f4ab031e

Need help.

please.

[Grantysghost]

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/blob:https://www.woof.net.au/9f8908a6-5951-4af2-a984-74231b057232Attempted to add an image.https://www.woof.net.au/forum/blob:https://www.woof.net.au/3d0b0516-c4b0-4fd2-9bfe-4940f4ab031e

Need help.

please.

Go to https://postimages.org

Select "choose images" and choose image from your device.

Then once uploaded select hotlink for forums.

Hit the copy icon on the right (looks like two offset pieces of paper).

Then goto woof and paste the copied text into the body of your post and submit.

https://i.postimg.cc/mkjsZDGY/Screenshot-20230327-153455.png (https://postimg.cc/q6NYjpqq)

[GVGjr]

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/blob:https://www.woof.net.au/9f8908a6-5951-4af2-a984-74231b057232Attempted to add an image.https://www.woof.net.au/forum/blob:https://www.woof.net.au/3d0b0516-c4b0-4fd2-9bfe-4940f4ab031e

Need help.

please.

You can send me the link and I can add it for you if you like.

[Danjul]

https://postimg.cc/gallery/68XNLL8


not quite right, they seem to be thumbnails.

thanks for the help.

https://postimg.cc/zH5y289f

https://postimg.cc/dDm6s1Q4

https://i.postimg.cc/jdNk3qTW/image-3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/7ZktFvPK/image-4.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/XYk132p4/image-5.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/9fxxwrdk/image-6.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/434L3z9t/image-7.jpg

[bornadog]

https://postimg.cc/gallery/68XNLL8

Those images prove that Macrae should have forced the stoppage instead of trying to handball. He was clearly going to get tackled so should have grabbed the ball as he was being tackled - so no prior opp.

English taps the ball to Macrae, who stuffs up the handball, and they take the ball down the ground and kick a goal

[Danjul]

Go to https://postimages.org



https://i.postimg.cc/mkjsZDGY/Screenshot-20230327-153455.png (https://postimg.cc/q6NYjpqq)

Thanks for the help.

I didn't get a page exactly the same as your first picture.

Might that be because I uploaded a set?

[Danjul]

Those images prove that Macrae should have forced the stoppage instead of trying to handball. He was clearly going to get tackled so should have grabbed the ball as he was being tackled - so no prior opp.

English taps the ball to Macrae, who stuffs up the handball, and they take the ball down the ground and kick a goal

English didn't tap the Ball to anyone. Macrae was behind his opponent and possibly holding him. In no way was he a target. The Bont was the obvious target with a clear path forward. but ignored. It was an error in my opinion. But I can live with your interpretation.

[bornadog]

English didn't tap the Ball to anyone. Macrae was behind his opponent and possibly holding him. In no way was he a target. The Bont was the obvious target with a clear path forward. but ignored. It was an error in my opinion. But I can live with your interpretation.

In any case, Macrae was the first to take the ball after English got the tap. (Whether intended to him or not)

[Bulldog4life]

In any case, Macrae was the first to take the ball after English got the tap. (Whether intended to him or not)

Bit of mind reading to decide that. It looked to me like a nice tap out to Macrae.

[mjp]

Those images prove that Macrae should have forced the stoppage instead of trying to handball. He was clearly going to get tackled so should have grabbed the ball as he was being tackled - so no prior opp.

English taps the ball to Macrae, who stuffs up the handball, and they take the ball down the ground and kick a goal

Actually, the images prove that Bontempelli had a terrible starting point but whatever!

[Bulldog4life]

Looking at those images if Jack could handball right handed good possibility it would have gone to Bont.

[JanLorMill]

I don't have access to the final hit out to advantage stats but they were shown on the scoreboard a few times and at one stage were 8-3 in English's favour over Marshall. I thought overall English was one of our best.

Our mids are not adjusting to having a more competitive English and until they do we will continue to struggle.
I remember seeing that stat and it was obvious any of our taps even those to advantage that our players were under the pump.
I also remember seeing a clearance stat early and Marshall was easily in front.

[bornadog]

I remember seeing that stat and it was obvious any of our taps even those to advantage that our players were under the pump.
I also remember seeing a clearance stat early and Marshall was easily in front.

Tim had 12 and Marshall had 10 hitouts to advantage.

see here (https://www.afl.com.au/stats/leaders?category=Stoppages&seasonId=52&roundId=759&roundNumber=2&sortColumn=hitoutsToAdvantage&sortDirection=descending&positions=All&teams=All&benchmarking=false&dataType=totals&playerOneId=null&playerTwoId=null)

[JanLorMill]

Tim had 12 and Marshall had 10 hitouts to advantage.

Not arguing that.
Asking what is true tap to advantage? Melbourne style Gawn to Oliver then Petracca to goal or what I saw in the first quarter Saturday English to one of our guys under the pump, then a scrappy kick or handball for a turnover.

[mjp]

not quite right, they seem to be thumbnails.

thanks for the help.

Image 1:

Pretty typical defensive triangle setup with Bont and 5 Saints basically rolling the dice. You can see Liber holding space on the same side as the spare Saint (5) so (in theory) he could pressure him if/as needed. Macrae is doing the same and is in a good spot to cover 5 if he were to get loose and could allow Bontempelli to take his.

Image 2:

It's a nice tap into dangerous space/Macrae's advantage. Both Saints players react (Jack's opponent and #5 who is clear which means at least one player (Bont) is still free for us. Unfortunately he is not in position to receive - David Wheedon would say he has created a 'BAD' triangle - and Macrae is really unable to safely release the ball to a team-mate.

Image 3:

Macrae is facing the goals - under pressure admittedly but facing the goals. He needs to kick at this point (as far as he can). There is potential for a miracle handball (right hand across body) into the path of Bont but I dont think that's a great idea. He needs to kick with his RIGHT FOOT.

Image 4:

Macrae has turned AWAY from our goal. At this point he is really committed to dispose of the ball or it's going to be a HTB free-kick. He has given up the right to prior opportunity by turning back into play (considered an attempt to evade). He is in trouble now. All 3x other Bulldogs (English, Bont, Libber) have not really moved from their starting position and Macrae is somehow - in a 4-v-4 contest - isolated 1-v-3.

Image 5:

Macrae has managed to dispose of the ball. Our winger (not pictured) is our only defense here and he SHOULD be pushing his direct opponent into this footy and 'owning' the outside. If he gets inside and tries (but fails) to win the ball, the ball will be in his opponents hand in one second. Bont, Liber and English still nowhere to be seen and really haven't worked this very well.


How should this have been set up?

1/. Bont comes around to the same side as Saints #5 and pushes him IN to the circle, owning the outside space.

2/. Macrae stands on the OPPOSITE side of his opponent to balance out the contest - so Liber stands as he is (closest to camera) vs his oppo and Macrae slides to the other side of his oppo - we should be BALANCED around the contest and not allow two oppo players to locate themselves between us and 'own' the space.

3/. Forget trying to hit it to advantage in CBD. It's unreliable and freakin' well undemocratic. Keep the ball INSIDE the contest and hit it as SOFTLY as possible. Mids get lower than the oppo - wingers and high forwards and backs hold their shape but DO NOT allow the oppo to impact on the contest by becoming a 5th. Priority # 1 - create a secondary stoppage with access to our numbers based stoppage game (7-v-7 or 8-v-8, not 4-v-4) and make sure any exit kick is a 'hard' out by maintain a bit of oppo integrity.

4/. If there are 3-mins to go and we're down, THEN try and isolate 1v-none and win some easy footy...but until then, fight it out.

[Matjoh]

Three? THere's so many more than three but I'll try to keep it there. Before I start though I'd like to say that I was there and I couldnt point to one player or line that I could blame. ITs a team game and team failure, including coaching despite some reasonable individual performances. I'm not saying I know whats up either, but I'll say this.
1. No apparent game plan A that I could see, and whatever it was there was no plan B when A didnt work bacause nothing changed anywhere that I could see. I dont count using Naghton in the ruck as a change in game plan.
2. No leading into space and no spread when in possession, and when in possession they usually went sideways or backwards allowing opposition to cover everything forward and they just bombed forward anyway. Noone pretty much leads into space not even the forwards [ok JUH did twice and Naughton once] Within this point I noticed that on occasion [quite a few actually] someone would lead or call for the ball unmanned and was ignored then a long bomb kicked to a contest = WTF?
3. Too slow - both generally [no run or spread other than chasing st kilda, and in kicking after a mark. This links into my last line of point 2.

Due to this I think either our coaching staff have no friggin idea - the game seems to have passed them or the players dont think on the field at all but follow what the coaches tell them to the letter but because the coaches have no idea the players have no idea and dont "ad lib".


How we've become apparent hasbeens so quickly is amazing but its been coming it seems for a while starting with the 21 GF then the famous GF hangover of belted teams that they talk about,[lost 5 of the first 8 in 22] sure there were a few fair games in between but mostly beating ordinary teams and being belted by good teams, culminating again v the two Freo games last year, and now two fade out games already this year. [so far]
So, have the better teams simply worked us out and our old game plan hasnt changed [assuming we have one].? Has Bevo lost the players? They surely arent playing for him and dont seem too interested playing for each other. Why do players want to leave lately? OR are these just two [or 3] apparitions in a row?

P.S. I think the McRae bagging/analysis is way over the top considering all the other "muck ups" by almost everyone on the night

[GVGjr]

You can always do 2 x 3 things MatJoh :)

[Hanga]

1.. Darcy and JUH will be ok but going to take time
2.. Our bottom end players are mostly not up to standard
3 .. Our kicking to advantage of a teamate was appaling only exception the bont

[GVGjr]

1.. Darcy and JUH will be ok but going to take time
2.. Our bottom end players are mostly not up to standard
3 .. Our kicking to advantage of a teamate was appaling only exception the bont

Great first up post Hanga. Nice to have you on board.

[Grantysghost]

1.. Darcy and JUH will be ok but going to take time
2.. Our bottom end players are mostly not up to standard
3 .. Our kicking to advantage of a teamate was appaling only exception the bont

Point 3 so true. Both weeks this year...

[Grantysghost]

Thanks for the help.

I didn't get a page exactly the same as your first picture.

Might that be because I uploaded a set?

Yes that's probably right. Could depend on device too I think I took those shots from a mobile device so may look a little different.

[Grantysghost]

Image 3

Bont falling over and Gresham and Crouch reacting brilliantly as defenders.

Although they did kind of honey pot it, if Bont was in a better spot he would've been an easy free target.

[D Mitchell]

........
P.S. I think the McRae bagging/analysis is way over the top considering all the other "muck ups" by almost everyone on the night

There's not enough bagging of McRae.

[Macrae = 'Dogs mid. McRae = C'wood coach]

[SonofScray]

1.. Darcy and JUH will be ok but going to take time
2.. Our bottom end players are mostly not up to standard
3 .. Our kicking to advantage of a teamate was appaling only exception the bont

Point 3 - gee we’ve made it hard for our young forwards over the journey with this.

Welcome to WOOF.

[The bulldog tragician]

Three? THere's so many more than three but I'll try to keep it there. Before I start though I'd like to say that I was there and I couldnt point to one player or line that I could blame. ITs a team game and team failure, including coaching despite some reasonable individual performances. I'm not saying I know whats up either, but I'll say this.
1. No apparent game plan A that I could see, and whatever it was there was no plan B when A didnt work bacause nothing changed anywhere that I could see. I dont count using Naghton in the ruck as a change in game plan.
2. No leading into space and no spread when in possession, and when in possession they usually went sideways or backwards allowing opposition to cover everything forward and they just bombed forward anyway. Noone pretty much leads into space not even the forwards [ok JUH did twice and Naughton once] Within this point I noticed that on occasion [quite a few actually] someone would lead or call for the ball unmanned and was ignored then a long bomb kicked to a contest = WTF?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]3. Too slow - both generally [no run or spread other than chasing st kilda, and in kicking after a mark. This links into my last line of point 2.

Due to this I think either our coaching staff have no friggin idea - the game seems to have passed them or the players dont think on the field at all but follow what the coaches tell them to the letter but because the coaches have no idea the players have no idea and dont "ad lib".


How we've become apparent hasbeens so quickly is amazing but its been coming it seems for a while starting with the 21 GF then the famous GF hangover of belted teams that they talk about,[lost 5 of the first 8 in 22] sure there were a few fair games in between but mostly beating ordinary teams and being belted by good teams, culminating again v the two Freo games last year, and now two fade out games already this year. [so far]
So, have the better teams simply worked us out and our old game plan hasnt changed [assuming we have one].? Has Bevo lost the players? They surely arent playing for him and dont seem too interested playing for each other. Why do players want to leave lately? OR are these just two [or 3] apparitions in a row?

P.S. I think the McRae bagging/analysis is way over the top considering all the other "muck ups" by almost everyone on the night

This was very obvious in a couple of occasions between Jones and Keath. While you?d guess neither are the ones we want driving it downfield , they then kicked to a contest having ignored - though clearly saw - each other.

[Matjoh]

There's not enough bagging of McRae.

[Macrae = 'Dogs mid. McRae = C'wood coach]
thanks for the bagging/analysis of my mis-spelling. :) Especially as I'm a fan and should know better

[D Mitchell]

thanks for the bagging/analysis of my mis-spelling. :) Especially as I'm a fan and should know better

All in fun leading up to the semis in the Smart Alec Cup.

[Bullies]

This was very obvious in a couple of occasions between Jones and Keath. While you?d guess neither are the ones we want driving it downfield , they then kicked to a contest having ignored - though clearly saw - each other. On a number of occassions we had a player unmanned and just refused to use them as the first option then for whatever reason after looking for other options we would then decide to kick them but by this time they were covered and resulted in turn overs. In the past Dale or Daniel would grab the ball from kick outs/switches and move it on to advantage. They need to take the game on this week. Go with their first option and through the middle when they can and throw the ball around. They have nothing to lose.

[1eyedog]

One thing is for sure Woof has once again been a bastion for honest, unbiased and frank discussion about where we're currently at as a football club and has certainly helped and supported me to get through the past few days from what was a pretty shitty place Saturday night and Sunday morning.

Appreciate the perspectives, measured opinions and insights from more learned posters over the past few days. It's really helped rationalise things.

This is why the site is important Gary and why it's worthwhile.

[GVGjr]

I get that some of the discussions are over the last few days are difficult for some people but I'm happy with the manner people are sharing their opinions on WOOF. Without thrashing out some of the options with people you've grown to know and respect during difficult periods then footy can be a lonely place.
I hope that people realise that what is confronting for some is therapeutic for others.