Luke Beveridge and our challenges

[GVGjr]

Despite a new contract due to two less than impressive results there is a lot of noise about getting rid of our premiership coach Luke Beveridge.
From my perspective that rarely plays out well for clubs to sack a coach mid season but particularly more about doing it so early in the season.
I'm inclined to believe the best option is to back all the planning that went into the season from the coaches, sports science guys and the executive teams and reassess if we get into a position where we can't make the finals.
Ironically if a club was to make a coaching change this might be the year to do it with only Hinkley, Simpson and now Bevo under the microscope so there might not be a need to rush it.

So lets hear your thoughts on what the club should do with Bevo and if/when a coaching change should be made?
I have attached a poll but feel free to suggest other options.

Lets try and have a good discussion with some facts or observations to support your position.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I think we certainly should start looking at a future coach. I think it's time to move on.

However getting rid of him now would be ludicrous. It's only round 2 and the man deserves more than that. I also think caretaker roles never serve much of a purpose.

There is still time to turn this around somewhat. And by that i mean get to 10th-12th rather than bottom of the ladder. If we're 0-6 we've got a free hit at trying out whatever we want.

I don't know whats going on down at the club but a number of our issues have been there for a while now and the guy in charge of it all has to take the fall for it. But I'm happy for him to see out the season as this one is already lost.

[Sedat]

I don't think there is a senior coach who is a more public face of their club than Bevo has been thrust into being for the last few years. Great leadership comes from the top of any organisation and we have had a passive, uninvested, invisible leader who prioritses her corporate role - every single club president is busy and successful outside the club but there is no excuse for the near complete lack of visibility, lack of passion and public support for the club. Added to that, we also have a very low profile CEO and head of footy dept, so even more responsibility has been heaped onto Bevo. And as frustrating as he can sometimes be with his stubbornness in his coaching methods, any future failure cannot be sheeted home to him alone.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I've gone from being a huge supporter of Bevo in the early years, having met him and been involved in a few club meetings, to questioning him, to wanting him out, to now.

Where is now? I think he's clearly in strife but I wouldn't sack him now, unless things are imploding from the inside in terms of player-coach relationships.

What would we gain from sacking him now? Supporter satisfaction, maybe. But it's not like we're going to appoint the next senior coach in-season and catapult to contending. The only thing sacking him now achieves is possibly further unrest amongst the players who actually support him.

Just as there was no rush in re-signing him (dumb move), there should be no rush in sacking him (unless as I stated above, there's a lot more to it than just on field performance). However, let's be frank - things change quickly. Another couple of heavy losses and it's full crisis mode.

I fully believe we need a rebuild and that this isn't just 2 weeks. This is a body of work of 12+ months.

The questions I'd be asking are not just Bevo focused, but whole-of-club;

- What if our list actually isn't THAT good?
- What if we need a rebuild, is Bevo capable of it? Is he deserving?
- Is Peter Gordon still around? Is someone else more capable than the invisible KWW?
- Is Chris Grant worthy of keeping his position?
- Why are we so light on in our coaching ranks compared to other clubs?
- Why is our injury list so bad each year? Is it bad luck or bad management?
- Are we fit enough?

And so on.

Ultimately I think the club needs to carefully navigate through this. Sacking Bevo too early might appease a frustrated supporter base but cause more harm internally, but there also comes a time where if he has zero influence on the group, change has to happen.

Interesting times.

[mjp]

...this one is already lost.

I love you mate but I just can't understand this mentality.

Honestly? 0-2, coming off a loss against a team who 'on paper' we "shoulda" beaten? Do you get ANY better opportunities in life than the one our players have right now? In what other profession to you get a 'do over' 6-days after a failure and have the chance to set things right? Where else to you get the chance to say "this ain't the end...it's just the beginning" and run out there with your mates and smash the hell out of the Lions?

The season is lost? There are a TONNE of games to go. After 4 rounds in 1997 Adelaide were 1-3 and coming off a defeat to Port Adelaide - who were literally JUST STARTING in the comp. Malcolm Blight - clearly on the lunatic fringe of coaches - simply wrote the number '18' on the white board in his review as in, '18 games to GO'.

This is an opportunity to do something GREAT. Just like being 2-0 *SHOULD* be seen as a chance to go undefeated, 0-2 (and in pretty poor form) is ALSO an opportunity. Let's get after it.

It's a brutal comp. What are we gonna do? Just say it's a snake-bitten season and give up? Stuff that. Let's roll.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I love you mate but I just can't understand this mentality.

Honestly? 0-2, coming off a loss against a team who 'on paper' we "shoulda" beaten? Do you get ANY better opportunities in life than the one our players have right now? In what other profession to you get a 'do over' 6-days after a failure and have the chance to set things right? Where else to you get the chance to say "this ain't the end...it's just the beginning" and run out there with your mates and smash the hell out of the Lions?

The season is lost? There are a TONNE of games to go. After 4 rounds in 1997 Adelaide were 1-3 and coming off a defeat to Port Adelaide - who were literally JUST STARTING in the comp. Malcolm Blight - clearly on the lunatic fringe of coaches - simply wrote the number '18' on the white board in his review as in, '18 games to GO'.

This is an opportunity to do something GREAT. Just like being 2-0 *SHOULD* be seen as a chance to go undefeated, 0-2 (and in pretty poor form) is ALSO an opportunity. Let's get after it.

It's a brutal comp. What are we gonna do? Just say it's a snake-bitten season and give up? Stuff that. Let's roll.

OK let me clarify. Of course 0-2 doesn't mean our season is done. However, I have next to ZERO faith in this group. They have failed to deliver on too many occasions when the going gets tough. They can't be trusted to consistently provided the required effort. I'm not saying the club should be acting like the season is done, it's just purely my opinion. It's also why I said it'd be ludicrous to sack Bevo right now. But that attitude you're talking about is just something that seems so foreign to this group. I saw English joking around with Cordy 30sec after the final siren. I mean for gods sake I'd be utterly embarrassed and pissed off after such an effort. Anyway this is more about trust than anything else. The consistency of this group to be inconsistent. The conditional running. Not doing it for the jumper. Not doing it for each other. They get our hopes up for 10min only to squash it in 5.

I love your optimism and can do attitude. Perhaps you could do a talk to the players.

[azabob]

I don't think there is a senior coach who is a more public face of their club than Bevo has been thrust into being for the last few years. Great leadership comes from the top of any organisation and we have had a passive, uninvested, invisible leader who prioritses her corporate role - every single club president is busy and successful outside the club but there is no excuse for the near complete lack of visibility, lack of passion and public support for the club. Added to that, we also have a very low profile CEO and head of footy dept, so even more responsibility has been heaped onto Bevo. And as frustrating as he can sometimes be with his stubbornness in his coaching methods, any future failure cannot be sheeted home to him alone.

Spot on. I mentioned in another thread surely someone other than Luke must front the media or grab a radio spot to talk about our start to the season.

[G-Mo77]

I think he needs to go ASAP. The longer this goes on the worse it is going to get for both the club and him. There is no change at all from last season, we're the same team, same attitude, same game plan (Or no plan whichever way you look at it) with a couple of different faces running around. We still have the same issues and to the uneducated eye from the stands don't appear to have worked on any weaknesses at all. I also think that whoever's decision to extend his contract needs to be shown the door as well. Baines? Grant? Who ever the decision makers are made a poor call and need to be held accountable.

I just don't know how we can do this though. I have no idea on the financial implications in sacking him with almost 2 full years on the deal. Lade, I'd assume would take over until we finalise something. Not sure how I feel about that either.

[Rocco Jones]

I don't think there is a senior coach who is a more public face of their club than Bevo has been thrust into being for the last few years. Great leadership comes from the top of any organisation and we have had a passive, uninvested, invisible leader who prioritses her corporate role - every single club president is busy and successful outside the club but there is no excuse for the near complete lack of visibility, lack of passion and public support for the club. Added to that, we also have a very low profile CEO and head of footy dept, so even more responsibility has been heaped onto Bevo. And as frustrating as he can sometimes be with his stubbornness in his coaching methods, any future failure cannot be sheeted home to him alone.

Excellent post Sedat.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I'm not over reacting at 0-2 - I know its been a horrible start

But most teams who sack the coach get an uptick for about 2-4 weeks before descending into a season of chaos

We've just re contracted Beveridge so we obviously have some belief - for me that doesn't necessarily change after a fortnight. Sometimes when things go wrong you have to back in your coach, if you think they are the right person and can learn from results and adapt, and extract new things from the group.

The questions about the list have to be asked - did we need all of Crozier, McLean, Baker, JJ, McComb, RSmith, Scott and Hannan - shouldnt we have been cutting a bit harder to add kids with speed to play pockets/flanks etc

[Boots]

I've been reading a lot of commentary on this excellent forum and the other, bad forum, as well as trying to take in what the media is saying, and I have to say I just don't know what the club should do, and I don't know what Bevo has left in the tank.

I am as guilty of a R1 premiership or wooden spoon as anyone (I'm still a new supporter really and still getting used to the way football goes), and I think mjp is right to stay bullish, but there are a few things I can't escape:

1) We look slow
2) We look confused
3) we're both boring and frustrating to watch

I think #1 could be fitness, or it it could be motivation, or it could be fear. #2 could be motivation, or it could be poor understanding of the game plan, or a lack of trust.

I can see why people immediately leap to blame Bevo for #1 and #2. It's tempting to reach for one cause for all your woes. I can also see why people think we should ditch him sooner rather than later - an immediate response is always more satisfying than a delayed one.

#3 is the real killer, because it's what makes me dread the footy each week. I'll always be a bulldogs supporter, but in times like this I do pick a 'second team' to barrack for (usually the Swans, though sometimes the Pies or Tiges) just to keep my interest in the sport high. But I don't want to leap to conclusions when there's so much I don't know and therefore I don't know what the fix is.

I've seen a few articles of faith touted about the team over the last year or so about our coaching/gameplan/training:
- We don't have the right assistants
- We have too many Footscray mature-age utilities
- Bevo has too much control/has lost the playing group
- We don't have a plan B
- We aren't fit enough
- We don't have enough 'mongrel'
- We should stop playing a zone defence

While I've found myself agreeing with many of them, I think a lot of these are arguments that start with the assumption the coaching or leadership is bad, so I'm torn on the degree to which they are evidence for the coaching being bad - there's maybe a little bit of circular reasoning in there. I doubt it's the players, but it might be a third factor (or a third factor plus a fourth factor) that we aren't considering because we don't know.

So I think this is where I get to:
- To safeguard my feelings I'll probably not force myself to sit through, or go to, games, at least until we get a it better or things become a little clearer. It might make me a bad supporter but I've got a few other things on lol
- There was a shift after R1 in the club's injury reporting - they packed Lobb off for surgery and Cody's return disappeared into the distance. One way to think about this is that they aren't taking risks they might have taken had we been playing well. Which means maybe they are shifting their thinking about this year, treating it as a development year for the new list and new gameplan. If this is the case, then you'd expect things to quite suddenly come good over a few weeks, possibly around the return of a few key players. That might be too late to save our season, but it might not be - and it might solve problem #3.
- If Bevo does go, I actually do hope it's managed at the end of the season. Mid-season coach changes don't seem to go well.

[Bulldog4life]

I'm not over reacting at 0-2 - I know its been a horrible start

But most teams who sack the coach get an uptick for about 2-4 weeks before descending into a season of chaos

We've just re contracted Beveridge so we obviously have some belief - for me that doesn't necessarily change after a fortnight. Sometimes when things go wrong you have to back in your coach, if you think they are the right person and can learn from results and adapt, and extract new things from the group.

The questions about the list have to be asked - did we need all of Crozier, McLean, Baker, JJ, McComb, RSmith, Scott and Hannan - shouldnt we have been cutting a bit harder to add kids with speed to play pockets/flanks etc

Agree. WE HAVE JUST RECONTRACTED BEVO to the end of 2025. My capitals means I am shouting it. I am in the camp of supporting
Bevo unconditionally. I remember Peter Gordon saying years later what a huge mistake he made by sacking Terry Wheeler after 2 games. He always regretted it. Bevo has done a fantastic job for us. Our best coach ever and some want to sack him after 2 games. I have faith that the whole club will turn this around.Let's support the club instead of bagging it.

[Mofra]

OK let me clarify. Of course 0-2 doesn't mean our season is done. However, I have next to ZERO faith in this group. They have failed to deliver on too many occasions when the going gets tough. They can't be trusted to consistently provided the required effort. I'm not saying the club should be acting like the season is done, it's just purely my opinion. It's also why I said it'd be ludicrous to sack Bevo right now. But that attitude you're talking about is just something that seems so foreign to this group. I saw English joking around with Cordy 30sec after the final siren. I mean for gods sake I'd be utterly embarrassed and pissed off after such an effort. Anyway this is more about trust than anything else. The consistency of this group to be inconsistent. The conditional running. Not doing it for the jumper. Not doing it for each other. They get our hopes up for 10min only to squash it in 5.

I love your optimism and can do attitude. Perhaps you could do a talk to the players.
English is one of our few performers, he can get away with it.
If it was Macrae or Crozier or Daniel on the other hand...

[azabob]

The questions about the list have to be asked - did we need all of Crozier, McLean, Baker, JJ, McComb, RSmith, Scott and Hannan - shouldnt we have been cutting a bit harder to add kids with speed to play pockets/flanks etc

Rightly or wrongly all of these players contracts are up at years end. We have always been too conservative with our list management and turning the list over.

[mjp]

- There was a shift after R1 in the club's injury reporting - they packed Lobb off for surgery and Cody's return disappeared into the distance. One way to think about this is that they aren't taking risks they might have taken had we been playing well.

Yeah, well...none of US knew about the Lobb injury until after the Dee's game. Which makes me wonder if maybe those on the inside DID have a suspicion about how things *might* go and were therefore trying to get every single 'asset' out on the field in an effort to get off to a positive start. Of course the 'Where does that leave us now?" question needs to be asked but...

Anyway, we can continue to make changes etc but the result on Saturday almost calls for a 'Same 22 - you made the mess, get out there and fix it' type of response...

[Mantis]

Yeah, well...none of US knew about the Lobb injury until after the Dee's game. Which makes me wonder if maybe those on the inside DID have a suspicion about how things *might* go and were therefore trying to get every single 'asset' out on the field in an effort to get off to a positive start. Of course the 'Where does that leave us now?" question needs to be asked but...

Anyway, we can continue to make changes etc but the result on Saturday almost calls for a 'Same 22 - you made the mess, get out there and fix it' type of response...

Given the consistent & excellent updates from GVGjr in the pre-season training thread he had noticed Lobb was on ''light/restricted'' for the last 7-10 days of our pre-season so it was no surprise to me when we heard the news of the injury.

Understand the principle about running with the same 22... but I can't see how we continue with at least a couple of the Rd.2 team who just aren't contributing.... we watch with interest.

[josie]

Agree. WE HAVE JUST RECONTRACTED BEVO to the end of 2025. My capitals means I am shouting it. I am in the camp of supporting
Bevo unconditionally. I remember Peter Gordon saying years later what a huge mistake he made by sacking Terry Wheeler after 2 games. He always regretted it. Bevo has done a fantastic job for us. Our best coach ever and some want to sack him after 2 games. I have faith that the whole club will turn this around.Let's support the club instead of bagging it.

Part of me agree with you B4L. But from when I heard players and possibly club did not conduct a detailed review 2021 GF loss, our ongoing puzzling mc selections leading to loss of players doing well at other clubs, our inability to address lack of foot speed and toughness for quite a few seasons, our stubborn approach to no tagging, our inability to change our stagnant midfield and an over reliance on Bont and Libba, our decreasing skill level, plus the internal review (should have been a detailed external review) late last year that seemed to result in only Lade being brought in, has me thinking there is something or multiple things deeply awry. The next 3 to 4 weeks are crucial. I chose the top 1 but am worried our problems stem from Bevo having to much say and hence go beyond the coach.

[Bulldog4life]

Part of me agree with you B4L. But from when I heard players and possibly club did not conduct a detailed review 2021 GF loss, our ongoing puzzling mc selections leading to loss of players doing well at other clubs, our inability to address lack of foot speed and toughness for quite a few seasons, our stubborn approach to no tagging, our inability to change our stagnant midfield and an over reliance on Bont and Libba, our decreasing skill level, plus the internal review (should have been a detailed external review) late last year that seemed to result in only Lade being brought in, has me thinking there is something or multiple things deeply awry. The next 3 to 4 weeks are crucial. I chose the top 1 but am worried our problems stem from Bevo having to much say and hence go beyond the coach.

You make too much sense Josie :) I'm just an old fashion optimist.

[F'scary]

go away disney ceo

[bornadog]

Rightly or wrongly all of these players contracts are up at years end. We have always been too conservative with our list management and turning the list over.

I think I have argued against this every time you and GVGjr bring it up.

Under Bevo we have turned over at least 8 to 10 every year. I don't believe we should be turning over more than that.

I will agree some players have gone one or two years too long.

[azabob]

- To safeguard my feelings I'll probably not force myself to sit through, or go to, games, at least until we get a it better or things become a little clearer. It might make me a bad supporter but I've got a few other things on lol


Hey Boots, great post.

I totally understand not wanting to go to a game as things look dire.

On the flip side this may be also the perfect opportunity to go.

I'm not expecting to play finals, but I also am looking forward to how the team gels or doesn't.

To look for that small improvement and heck to be there when we pull off an upset and the tide turns back in our favour.

What I'm optimistic about is that Beveridge said after both games has said it is not good enough.

In previous seasons he has not been that direct and has avoided saying that publicly.

[GVGjr]

go away disney ceo

In the opening posts I ask the following from contributors

"Lets try and have a good discussion with some facts or observations to support your position"

While I get many people are frustrated I respectfully ask that you please try and stay within that range and the spirit of the discussion as all others have and put some content into your contributions.

[F'scary]

In the opening posts I ask the following from contributors

"Lets try and have a good discussion with some facts or observations to support your position"

While I get many people are frustrated I respectfully ask that you please try and stay within that range and put some content into your contributions.

I think my comment, though succinct, is right over the target.

[bornadog]

I think my comment, though succinct, is right over the target.

I bet you know nothing about her.

[Sedat]

I bet you know nothing about her.
Does anybody? That is kind of the problem.

Footy is tribal and passionate. City Hall is the place for globalist corporates, and really is where someone like KW-W would thrive and prosper. In club land, we need everybody from the top down to be fervently tribal and 1000% in our corner, over and above being talented/well connected - the latter is not enough to be a successful club president that cuts through. We were spoilt rotten with Peter Gordon and David Smorgon as our leaders, who led us in far more difficult circumstances than current incumbent IMO.

[Grantysghost]

go away disney ceo

I like kww.

Agree she could be more visible, however maybe the days of us needing a president being out on the front foot and in the spotlight are over.
I'll judge them on the role they're there to do.

[Grantysghost]

Does anybody? That is the problem.

Footy is tribal and passionate. City Hall is the place for globalist corporates. In club land, we need everybody from the top down to be fervently tribal and 1000% in our corner as well as talented/well connected - the latter is nowhere near enough for a club president I'm afraid. We were spoilt rotten with Peter Gordon and David Smorgon as our leaders, who led us in far more difficult circumstances than current incumbent.

I'll bite.

Apart from the fact kww is employed by Disney what makes you know she is that which you describe. You seem to dislike the collective when judging the individual which to me seems unfair.

[Stevo]

Some contrasting views all expressed with logic and this is the sort of discussions I hope the club is having.
We cant just point the finger at Beveridge as this is a problem that the club has to resolve so Grant or Bains need to be proactive.
The players need to own their positions and help their coach.
I don't think Ive seen a more even spread of votes here. I could probably guess who's in the Back Bevo regardless votes. :)

[Scraggers]

In Bevo We Trust ... Still ... For now.

Just starting his 9th year as a senior coach, he has taken us to the finals 6 out of 8 years; including two grand final appearances. That alone deserves our support in his continued tenure (as was proven by the boards unanimous decision to extend his contract at the end of last year.)

As supporters, we love to throw people under the bus. We did it with Rocket, we are constantly doing it with Bevo. (I was guilty of doing it with Brendan McCartney). We have to stick by him ... stick fat.

In saying all that, I still believe he needs support. He needs to have a senior assistant to help him through or to complement (not compliment) his efforts. A sounding board if you will.

Remember, we did start last season 0-2 (losing to Melbourne and Carlton) and we were 2-4 at the end of Round 6.

[Jez1]

Despite a new contract due to two less than impressive results there is a lot of noise about getting rid of our premiership coach Luke Beveridge.
From my perspective that rarely plays out well for clubs to sack a coach mid season but particularly more about doing it so early in the season.
I'm inclined to believe the best option is to back all the planning that went into the season from the coaches, sports science guys and the executive teams and reassess if we get into a position where we can't make the finals.
Ironically if a club was to make a coaching change this might be the year to do it with only Hinkley, Simpson and now Bevo under the microscope so there might not be a need to rush it.

So lets hear your thoughts on what the club should do with Bevo and if/when a coaching change should be made?
I have attached a poll but feel free to suggest other options.

Lets try and have a good discussion with some facts or observations to support your position.


I'm 44 and Luke Beveridge has been my absolute favourite coach, and not just because of the success, but I just love everything about him. The way he speaks, motivates, and his ability to be different, although I haven't always agreed with team selection, so it pains me to say this; he should've been sacked at the end of last year, and I believe they should sack him immediately before the season is a complete mess. I believe he's no longer getting through to the players, I don't think they believe in his game plan, a game plan that is completely outdated, a change is needed.
I think he is clueless right now, we've been terrible defensively for some time now, which to be fair is part personnel, but our defensive structures are not what is required. People say but he's a premiership coach, has the best Bulldogs winning record, but that's the past, the game moves quickly, and it's moved past Bevo for the moment.
Sometimes no matter how successful a coach is at a club, there comes a time when a fresh voice with fresh ideas is needed. You?d be lucky to find two players that have improved in the last 18 months, most have either stagnated or gone backwards, he?s team selection and positioning of players is questionable, and he?s continually out coached game day. This from Leigh Montagna I was really bullish on the Western Bulldogs and a lot of people were. They added some pieces, they've got some talent and I thought that they would change a bit of their system. But at the moment after two weeks of footy, they kick forward the third least in the competition. Going against the trend of what everyone else is doing? Their pressure is bottom six, they are last in scoring from stoppage, which is meant to be their strength with that midfield. They can't move the ball forward, their 18th in inside 50s and they can't defend it and they can't cover the ground. It's alarming.

The team is actually unwatchable at the moment and completely directionless. Brisbane will belt us Thursday night, and our first win won't be until hawks round 6. He's been a great for the dogs, but as supporters we're burying our heads in the sand because of our love for what he's done if we think he should stay.

[bornadog]

Does anybody? That is kind of the problem.

Footy is tribal and passionate. City Hall is the place for globalist corporates, and really is where someone like KW-W would thrive and prosper. In club land, we need everybody from the top down to be fervently tribal and 1000% in our corner, over and above being talented/well connected - the latter is not enough to be a successful club president that cuts through. We were spoilt rotten with Peter Gordon and David Smorgon as our leaders, who led us in far more difficult circumstances than current incumbent IMO.

The Club President doesn't need to deal with the day to day stuff but should be visible when important off field issues arise like funding, stadium deals and dealing with HQ. Peter and Smorgo were Presidents during tough times when the financial viability of the club was a big issue amongst other major problems. Thank goodness they steered us into a great off field position.

[Sedat]

I like kww.

Agree she could be more visible, however maybe the days of us needing a president being out on the front foot and in the spotlight are over.
I'll judge them on the role they're there to do.
This is not an attack on KW-W. I just don't have much regard for the career global corporate types when it comes to being an effective and impactful leader of a footy club. I would have absolutely the same opinion if our president was Richard Goyder or Gill McLaughlan (or any other career corporatist). These types simply don't have that inherent tribalism and passion required to be a succesful club president IMO.

When we were travelling around the countryside during the 2021 finals series like we were the Leyland Brothers, we didn't hear a peep from KW-W. We silently took the absurd restrictions and state govt overreach without any protest or comment whatsoever. At the end of the day, she is a company woman and will never break ranks in support of the club over the code, and our supporters deserve and expect much more from the president. We were going through one of the most arduous finals campaigns in history and we didn't hear anything - not even encouragement for our maginificent 3 week and 2.5 quarter run. Contrast this radio silence to Peter Gordon during our 2016 finals campaign - it is chalk and cheese.

Also KW-W (and Bains and Grant) have left Bevo to do all the heavy lifting when it comes to our media profile and our media brand - again, that is just not good enough IMO. He frayed at the edges last year after basically being the lone spokesperson for the club for the last few years since Peter Gordon retired.

[Grantysghost]

I agree the load needs to be taken off Bevo, I don't think the board is the source though it needs to be the executive.
Grant and Ameet.
We don't need any more Koch-eys!

[Boots]

I find the talk about KWW a distraction at best. I've worked a lot with executives and board chairs, sat on a few boards myself, and been trained in board membership. The President is a figurehead when compared to most other roles. She's almost certainly part-time (and it'd be a few days a year), may even be unpaid, and has zero input into strategic decisions. Unless the club is run radically differently to other associations, it's an oversight role and it's mostly interested in fiduciary matters; the best she could do is ask some questions, but by that point most policy/strategy questions are resolved. Arguably, Gordon was maybe TOO active as a president (as are/were other active AFL presidents like Brasher or O'Neil) and got us used to something that maybe wasn't actually a good thing.

She could probably play a part in removing a CEO, but you'd expect she'd have little to do with anything football-department-related. If I'm thinking about on-field success, I couldn't care less who she is or what she thinks. If you have to have a go at executives, have a go at Bains.

[GVGjr]

I find the talk about KWW a distraction at best. I've worked a lot with executives and board chairs, sat on a few boards myself, and been trained in board membership. The President is a figurehead when compared to most other roles. She's almost certainly part-time (and it'd be a few days a year), may even be unpaid, and has zero input into strategic decisions. Unless the club is run radically differently to other associations, it's an oversight role and it's mostly interested in fiduciary matters; the best she could do is ask some questions, but by that point most policy/strategy questions are resolved. Arguably, Gordon was maybe TOO active as a president (as are/were other active AFL presidents like Brasher or O'Neil) and got us used to something that maybe wasn't actually a good thing.

She could probably play a part in removing a CEO, but you'd expect she'd have little to do with anything football-department-related. If I'm thinking about on-field success, I couldn't care less who she is or what she thinks. If you have to have a go at executives, have a go at Bains.

Tend to agree, it would be great to see more of her because I went to an East Meets West dinner last year and she makes a great impression but I question if it's good have her fronting the media with on field challenges. You would hope she has connected with Luke given the media's focus and the fans displeasure.

Back to the issue du jour, I'd really like to get an understanding of why we have looked so poor but some points to consider are:
- Has the changes to the footy department with soft cap challenges and the departures of experienced assistant coaches (King, Hansen) and key personnel (Maple, Graham) taken their toll or exposed some gaps?
- Has the relocation to Skinner reserve and the harder surface prior to Xmas caused a few more injuries and disruptions?
- Has the sports science and medical teams planned out a poor program for the players off season training?
- How much of are problems are directly related to the coach?
- Has our lets say stubborn approach to recruiting finally caught up with us?
- Does our game plan really measure up well against other teams?

There could 10 or more reasons but I feel like we've got a lot of issues we need to review before we make any decisions of changing personnel. You may placate a number of angry fans with a hasty decision and then in the longer term alienate more by getting it wrong.

[bornadog]

Back to the issue du jour, I'd really like to get an understanding of why we have looked so poor but some points to consider are:
- Has the changes to the footy department with soft cap challenges and the departures of experienced assistant coaches (King, Hansen) and key personnel (Maple, Graham) taken their toll or exposed some gaps?
- Has the relocation to Skinner reserve and the harder surface prior to Xmas caused a few more injuries and disruptions?
- Has the sports science and medical teams planned out a poor program for the players off season training?
- How much of are problems are directly related to the coach?
- Has our lets say stubborn approach to recruiting finally caught up with us?
- Does our game plan really measure up well against other teams?

There could 10 or more reasons but I feel like we've got a lot of issues we need to review before we make any decisions of changing personnel. You may placate a number of angry fans with a hasty decision and then in the longer term alienate more by getting it wrong.

Do you think LADE has changed things up in the midfield and it is effecting the way we play?

[GVGjr]

Do you think LADE has changed things up in the midfield and it is effecting the way we play?
Not from my perspective and I don't have anything negative to say about Lade or the assistant coaches but I suspect we need to review how they're performing as a group.

[SonofScray]

I sharpened an axe early in R2 2018 and have considered swinging it in 2018, 2019, 2020, and now.

2020/21 I tempered my feelings around the coach based on the fact I was concentrating more on not dying during the pandemic and my empathy was high for anyone in a leadership position navigating the mess we were all. in. 2021 was good fun and remains proof of two things, we have a talented list and a coach who can get them up at times. I'm also growing more and more resentful of the way we collapsed, because it has been a pattern across Bevo's tenure to collapse or get shut down for long stretches in games.

The rote, repetitious manner in which we lose. The listless, joyful football we play when we are off, I've had enough of it and want to get a different look at it.

I'm prepared to accept it mightn't be Bevo that's actually the issue. I am curious about the director of football, I am curious about Baines, I am curious about the President.

- Baines appears to be running a good ship financially, which is the key thing for him I feel. He has made us a more conservative, bland organisation though. Real by the numbers sort of stuff. Not inherently a problem, but there are some areas he could be leading from the front on. Bevo shouldn't have had to be the face of the club on every factor like he is.

- President is just a non factor, respectfully. She may or may not be doing wonders. Who knows? We don't really see her in front of the cameras, or advocating for the club in the way we've come to expect from more combative leaders and figurehead types in Smorgo (I never liked him, which is blasphemous I know) and PG (who I loved as a leader). I don't know who else would be fit and able to lead us in that capacity, so Kylie gets more time to craft her own story with the club.

- Grant. Might have a bit to answer for. His fate is linked to Bevo's now as far as I am concerned. Strongly agreed with his decision to extend the contract, made sense to me. Not because it was blind faith in a good coach, but that it bought time to plan for the worst. Which is what is happening now and if we zoom out a little, feels like it has set in.

The quickest option and the one that makes sense for me though, remains to make a change at the Senior coach level. He's had enough time and I can't envisage a future where he stays on and we become the team I want us to be. It didn't happen with my other favourite coaches at the back end of their time with us, Eade and Wallace, what's different here? We know what we are getting.

It's harsh, its emotional, its whatever folk want to frame it as, I don't care. I don't get an actual say in it and I'll be paying up, attending and barracking hard regardless. I changed my tune over summer, and backed them all in, but we've got more of the same and are staring down the barrel of a complete collapse, I am anxious about getting the most out of the Bont's best years. I am disappointed that we've strayed so far from a mentality and style of footy that was close to the best version of ourselves as a club I'd ever witnessed to this absolute stuttering, meek mess we have now.

*my family have informed me I am being annoying and have been a broken record for 5 years or so, so sorry for subjecting you to more of it here too!

[bornadog]

Not from my perspective and I don't have anything negative to say about Lade or the assistant coaches but I suspect we need to review how they're performing as a group.

Not necessarily negative, but more a change that the players are not adopting to?

[JanLorMill]

The Club President doesn't need to deal with the day to day stuff but should be visible when important off field issues arise like funding, stadium deals and dealing with HQ. Peter and Smorgo were Presidents during tough times when the financial viability of the club was a big issue amongst other major problems. Thank goodness they steered us into a great off field position.
So invisible just when the coach or club are under pressure?

[bornadog]

So invisible just when the coach or club are under pressure?

What would you like her to say?

[JanLorMill]

What would you like her to say?
how about just defending the club or coach?

[bornadog]

how about just defending the club or coach?

There have been two rounds, no need to panic and bring in the President.

[DOG GOD]

The players are not playing as a team, and there can only be 2 reasons..
1) they don?t want to play for beveridge
Or
2) the tightness of the playing group that beveridge keeps instilling to the media, is an outright lie.

Something has been wrong since 2017 as far as I’m concerned. Dunkley spoke about lack of professionalism when he asked to be traded the first time, only to not get his Essendon trade, and now gone. Hunter’s off field issues, smith the same. Players getting games ahead of others. Clear favouritism in the playing group?you could go on and on and on.

Jamarra and Darcy fell in our laps, and because of that we haven’t gotten any of the young mids. That’s telling.

We look slow, disinterested with a pathetic gameplan that to me, watching live, makes little to no sense. Nothing much has changed since last year.

I said I felt we would miss the 8 and inwardly was probably mocked on here, but I could see the Dunkley/Hunter losses as major, and the Lobb and Jones adds as MEH. Other teams improving, meaning someone would have to drop off. Carlton got us into the finals. That’s a fact. We were relatively poor last year and after 2 weeks this year, we look like the Rhode years. Something stinks at the club. Let’s not sugar coat it. Turning the year around from here would be like turning the titanic around in a porter potty. Either way, it smells like shit.

[soupman]

I've been on the fence with Beveridge for a few years now, and this pre-season was probably the most on board I have been, considering it felt like we kind of made moves to get better and the training reports have been very positive.

I am inclined to want him gone now, mainly because I see it as the easiest way to reinvigorate the club and group. I look at Collingwood, who are obviously the flavour of the month but also are super fun and enjoyable to watch, and think we are the antithesis of this. We were like them in Beveridge's first two years, but since then have just deteriorated to the point that for me (and I think many others) when we play well and are fun to watch the prevailing emotion is relief.

A bit like when loved players like Dahlhaus left, a big part of me was so relieved I didn't have to watch another 40m set shot fall short. I think I'll feel similiarly when Beveridge leaves.

I cannot wait until we get to discuss something else here, instead of the same issues every few weeks every season.

I cannot wait till I can get optimistic that the new coach can harness an energy in the group, when atm I am just constantly worried Beveridge can't get the necessary buy in this week.

I cannot wait until we start to move the ball with purpose, I cannot wait until we take goalkicking seriously, i cannot wait till we set up our defence in a conventional style, i cannot wait until it feels like our entire game doesn't depend on a marginal play where a skill error under pressure means we get torched out the back, and i cannot wait till we don't predictably underperform then overperform to just scrape into finals and then just have to hope that we might go on some stupidly improbable run again.

I desperately want this group to do well, and am hoping that a change can somehow change their mindset and mean we don't just fold over in 5 minute avalanches, that we are capable of fighting back when thing aren't going well, and that I can trust the playing group to actually care week to week.

I think changing our coach is the easiest path, we have too much talent we would need to move around and sell low to rejig the list, and we have already tried backing in Beveridge to fix it multiple times with poor results made better by a nuts and completely out of character finals series.

As for the thread question, I just don't know if we can keep going with Beveridge at half rat power. I guess I'd keep him till the mid season part at least, and maybe even let him see out the year. Unless we see Lade as the difference maker I think we stand to go backwards if we do cut Bevo now, but in no way do I think he is the future. Kind of a cursed position of all the options being shit atm.

[Go_Dogs]

I voted for no change but sound out options.

I think that’s a prudent step and I’m sure most clubs are doing this - surveying the landscape and who is available or might be gettable. It doesn’t mean we make a move, just that we are doing our diligence.

Bevo often does his best work when you least expect it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we finally got a response in a few days time and get this sEason back on track. If we have another 10+ goal loss it will be hard to swallow though.

[bornadog]

I voted for no change but sound out options.

I think that’s a prudent step and I’m sure most clubs are doing this - surveying the landscape and who is available or might be gettable. It doesn’t mean we make a move, just that we are doing our diligence.

Bevo often does his best work when you least expect it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we finally got a response in a few days time and get this sEason back on track. If we have another 10+ goal loss it will be hard to swallow though.

You don't sign up a coach for a further period and then two games later say goodbye. I know you are not advocating that, but even looking around is pretty bad in my opinion. What changed in a month?

[jeemak]

You don't sign up a coach for a further period and then two games later say goodbye. I know you are not advocating that, but even looking around is pretty bad in my opinion. What changed in a month?

Given the absolute lack of response in games to date and the apparent lack of skill and fitness (which both always look worse than they probably are when the team isn't giving sufficient effort/ concentration) it would be negligent for the club not to start thinking about what they might do if the rot continues.

[Grantysghost]

Given the absolute lack of response in games to date and the apparent lack of skill and fitness (which both always look worse than they probably are when the team isn't giving sufficient effort/ concentration) it would be negligent for the club not to start thinking about what they might do if the rot continues.

Uh oh.

Thread thread thread thread.....

https://media.giphy.com/media/3orieQZW1sXMmIedbi/giphy.gif

[bornadog]

Uh oh.

Thread thread thread thread.....

https://media.giphy.com/media/3orieQZW1sXMmIedbi/giphy.gif

They are actually chanting Dunkley, Dunkley, Dunkley

[Grantysghost]

They are actually chanting Dunkley, Dunkley, Dunkley

Gold.

[jeemak]

I'll start a Trade BAD thread if you keep this up!

[Grantysghost]

I'll start a Trade BAD thread if you keep this up!

https://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpKniGqRNLGBrhu/giphy.gif

[bornadog]

I'll start a Trade BAD thread if you keep this up!

Excellent, happy to get off social media at the moment.

[jeemak]

Excellent, happy to get off social media at the moment.

We'd trade you to Bomber Blitz and you'd have to post after saying how amazing the forum is for your worn out posting knuckles, like the Tullamarine rubber floors were for Cooney's knees!

[GVGjr]

Can we please get back on topic.

[Eastdog]

We have had a terrible fortnight no doubt about it. Saturday loss was one of our worst in recent times. The next month will be interesting in how we respond. I’m not big on making any rash decisions right now. I need more of a sample size.

[Matjoh]

honestly, its a bit early to be calling for his head for goodness sake. In another post I pointed the finger at several glaring ongoing issues but it hardly means his head at this stage. We lost the first two in 2020 by a lot, and made finals. Were you calling for his head after those first two games? Followed that up with a GF in 2021 so hadnt gone backwards at that stage. Last year again lost the first two and again made finals. Ok we look pretty ordinary so far to say the least but not headhunting YET. Yes I voted option one

[1eyedog]

We can't backstab Bevo. He orchestrated a flag for us and gave us a crack at another one. I'd take that over 8 years of top 4 finishes and no GF appearances.

Think he's deserved the opportunity to see out the year. Who knows what will happen on Thursday night it's a long season.

[Eastdog]

honestly, its a bit early to be calling for his head for goodness sake. In another post I pointed the finger at several glaring ongoing issues but it hardly means his head at this stage. We lost the first two in 2020 by a lot, and made finals. Were you calling for his head after those first two games? Followed that up with a GF in 2021 so hadnt gone backwards at that stage. Last year again lost the first two and again made finals. Ok we look pretty ordinary so far to say the least but not headhunting YET. Yes I voted option one

Voted the first option as well. Need to wait and then definitely review.

[FrediKanoute]

Agree. WE HAVE JUST RECONTRACTED BEVO to the end of 2025. My capitals means I am shouting it. I am in the camp of supporting
Bevo unconditionally. I remember Peter Gordon saying years later what a huge mistake he made by sacking Terry Wheeler after 2 games. He always regretted it. Bevo has done a fantastic job for us. Our best coach ever and some want to sack him after 2 games. I have faith that the whole club will turn this around.Let's support the club instead of bagging it.

It was the right decision. As nice a guys as Wheels is and as great a coach as he was 1990/91/92 he was done and if they club hadn't made the change we would have been done. Joyce was always going to be a short term appointment, but he was a good appointment.

[derb]

It's all what the players think.

[jazzadogs]

I voted maybe by mid season. I am very concerned by the way we played, and the way seem to have prepared for our two opponents. I'm sure it's recency bias but I can't recall a worse game in the Bevo era - I think the fact we showed in 12 minutes how we should have beaten them made it worse.

BUT I think he's still got a couple of credits left, and has consistently shown an ability to turn things around week to week. If we get to 0-6 then I will be chips in on Bevo out.

[GVGjr]

I voted maybe by mid season. I am very concerned by the way we played, and the way seem to have prepared for our two opponents. I'm sure it's recency bias but I can't recall a worse game in the Bevo era - I think the fact we showed in 12 minutes how we should have beaten them made it worse.

BUT I think he's still got a couple of credits left, and has consistently shown an ability to turn things around week to week. If we get to 0-6 then I will be chips in on Bevo out.

I don't think there is a right answer to any of the options proposed and as someone else pointed out there is a real spread of votes so far and it will of course play somehow. Do we have the right leaders to either back and support Bevo or if things don't improve be strong enough to make that move it's probably one of those 'time will tell' moments?
Looking forward to today's training session to see how the players respond and who rallies around Bevo.

[Mantis]

I don't think there is a right answer to any of the options proposed and as someone else pointed out there is a real spread of votes so far and it will of course play somehow. Do we have the right leaders to either back and support Bevo or if things don't improve be strong enough to make that move it's probably one of those 'time will tell' moments?
Looking forward to today's training session to see how the players respond and who rallies around Bevo.

In all seriousness who really gives a toss how they train or who is friendly with Bevo... we all wait for 7.20pm on Thursday to see how we respond when it counts.

[mjp]

I don't think there is a right answer to any of the options proposed and as someone else pointed out there is a real spread of votes so far and it will of course play somehow.

The right answer is...once the 'club' decides it's all over, they should end it then. Keeping the coach until the end of the year never helps anyone. I look at the Giants last year and whilst it really felt at the time that they moved WAAAYYYY too earlier on Cameron, it did take a lot of pressure off the club, give an assistance coach the chance to audition and gave them a look at their players in different roles within a different game-plan.

If that's now...move now. If it's later...move later. If it's not at all - well, see ya next year (or at the end of 2025).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The right answer is...once the 'club' decides it's all over, they should end it then. Keeping the coach until the end of the year never helps anyone. I look at the Giants last year and whilst it really felt at the time that they moved WAAAYYYY too earlier on Cameron, it did take a lot of pressure off the club, give an assistance coach the chance to audition and gave them a look at their players in different roles within a different game-plan.

If that's now...move now. If it's later...move later. If it's not at all - well, see ya next year (or at the end of 2025).

Good post mjp.

Out of interest, what are your thoughts on the current situation? What would you do if you were senior management at the club?

[1eyedog]

The right answer is...once the 'club' decides it's all over, they should end it then. Keeping the coach until the end of the year never helps anyone. I look at the Giants last year and whilst it really felt at the time that they moved WAAAYYYY too earlier on Cameron, it did take a lot of pressure off the club, give an assistance coach the chance to audition and gave them a look at their players in different roles within a different game-plan.

If that's now...move now. If it's later...move later. If it's not at all - well, see ya next year (or at the end of 2025).

I don't think the club will know what to do if we're 0-5 or 0-6 or whatever. Who has the balls to have a hard conversation with Beveridge? No way Grant fronts up on this. Has to be Bains but I have my doubts he can do this. We'll sit on our hands until Bevo's had enough or the players revolt. Let's hope it doesn't come to that!

Regardless I feel certain if Bevo can't turn it around in the second half of the season he'll walk away before season's end anyway.

I'm still backing him and our players in. I think we can turn this around and get on a roll. I'm just not sure when and I'm hoping it's not too late in the season.

[Sedat]

I don't think the club will know what to do if we're 0-5 or 0-6 or whatever. Who has the balls to have a hard conversation with Beveridge? No way Grant fronts up on this. Has to be Bains but I have my doubts he can do this. We'll sit on our hands until Bevo's had enough or the players revolt. Let's hope it doesn't come to that!
This was the point I made earlier in relation to leadership starting at the top. Some disagree that our president should be anything more than a figurehead but really the president is the official leader of the entire organisation. Whether or not she is doing a great job in her fiduciary responsibilities is not really the point - her complete lack of profile as our club president (and believe me, she does not suffer a lack of profile in the corporate world with her role at Disney) has created a massive leadership vacuum in comms that Bevo has been forced to fill. And this comms vacuum has not been close to adequately filled by CEO and head of footy, adding even more pressure on Bevo and taking away his energy and focus on what is already an all-encompassing job as senior coach.

If the season pans out as per your example above, and if Bevo subsequently falls on his sword through stealthy coercion from those above in the chain of command, I will feel incredibly sorry for him. It it is fundamentally wrong that the very people who extended his contract would terminate it and not suffer any consequencs whatsoever, when they have contributed to the leadership vacuum in the first place which has made the senior coach's job so much more difficult.

I'm confident there will be a response from coach and players and we can turn the season around. Talent and knowledge doesn't evaporate overnight. We are 4 consecutive years in finals with a 3-4 record in September in that stretch - not too many clubs in the competition have that recent record.

[GVGjr]

The right answer is...once the 'club' decides it's all over, they should end it then. Keeping the coach until the end of the year never helps anyone. I look at the Giants last year and whilst it really felt at the time that they moved WAAAYYYY too earlier on Cameron, it did take a lot of pressure off the club, give an assistance coach the chance to audition and gave them a look at their players in different roles within a different game-plan.

If that's now...move now. If it's later...move later. If it's not at all - well, see ya next year (or at the end of 2025).

Agree, it's not right to expect them to be the front man if a decision has been made to change direction.

[GVGjr]

This was the point I made earlier in relation to leadership starting at the top. Some disagree that our president should be anything more than a figurehead but really the president is the official leader of the entire organisation. Whether or not she is doing a great job in her fiduciary responsibilities is not really the point - her complete lack of profile as our club president (and believe me, she does not suffer a lack of profile in the corporate world with her role at Disney) has created a massive leadership vacuum in comms that Bevo has been forced to fill. And this comms vacuum has not been close to adequately filled by CEO and head of footy, adding even more pressure on Bevo and taking away his energy and focus on what is already an all-encompassing job as senior coach.

If the season pans out as per your example above, and if Bevo subsequently falls on his sword through stealthy coercion from those above in the chain of command, I will feel incredibly sorry for him. It it is fundamentally wrong that the very people who extended his contract would terminate it and not suffer any consequencs whatsoever, when they have contributed to the leadership vacuum in the first place which has made the senior coach's job so much more difficult.

I'm confident there will be a response from coach and players and we can turn the season around. Talent and knowledge doesn't evaporate overnight. We are 4 consecutive years in finals with a 3-4 record in September in that stretch - not too many clubs in the competition have that recent record.


There is no question on that point and you would have to believe Gordon or Smorgon would have most likely fronted the media in some capacity or at least they would do so by Thursday's game. That might still happen.

[Go_Dogs]

You don't sign up a coach for a further period and then two games later say goodbye. I know you are not advocating that, but even looking around is pretty bad in my opinion. What changed in a month?

I think there are levels and layers to it though. Doing a recon on who is available / who might be gettable is a different proposition to chasing someone else and saying goodbye to Bevo.

What if we lose the next 15 games in a row by an average margarine of 80 points and someone who was more prepared than us snatches up the best available coach and we haven?t even looked at the landscape? That?s negligent.

We know who is who in the zoo and we’re ready if worst case scenario happens with a Plan B and Plan C etc.

[chef]

Only round 2 so way too early to be thinking about this stuff for mine. Bevo should see out the season no matter what and then review the season.

[1eyedog]

I think there are levels and layers to it though. Doing a recon on who is available / who might be gettable is a different proposition to chasing someone else and saying goodbye to Bevo.

What if we lose the next 15 games in a row by an average margarine of 80 points and someone who was more prepared than us snatches up the best available coach and we haven?t even looked at the landscape? That?s negligent.

We know who is who in the zoo and we’re ready if worst case scenario happens with a Plan B and Plan C etc.

There won't be a need for a coach if we drop 15 games from here by an average margin of 80 points because I would have already burnt Whitten Oval down to the ground.

[Go_Dogs]

There won't be a need for a coach if we drop 15 games from here by an average margin of 80 points because I would have already burnt Whitten Oval down to the ground.

Agree. It’s an extreme example and absolutely won’t happen.

[mjp]

There won't be a need for a coach if we drop 15 games from here by an average margin of 80 points because I would have already burnt Whitten Oval down to the ground.

You might have to burn Skinner Reserve down as well!

No idea why but your comment reminded me of the scene in Bull Durham where the girl 'caught' with Tim Robbins in the locker room informs the manager that he can't ban her from the Ball Park on the basis that her Daddy had donated the new scoreboard. To which the manager replied - "What do we need a scoreboard for - we haven't scored any runs all season"....

Let's hope after Thursday night there is no need for any drastic action such as that you have suggested.

[1eyedog]

You might have to burn Skinner Reserve down as well!

No idea why but your comment reminded me of the scene in Bull Durham where the girl 'caught' with Tim Robbins in the locker room informs the manager that he can't ban her from the Ball Park on the basis that her Daddy had donated the new scoreboard. To which the manager replied - "What do we need a scoreboard for - we haven't scored any runs all season"....

Let's hope after Thursday night there is no need for any drastic action such as that you have suggested.

Gary would be out roaming the streets if I did that!

[Bulldog Joe]

We are in a results business and the results are not supportive of retaining Bevo.

I now fully expect as to be 0-6, with the most winnable game having been lost.

We have issues around defence, offence, work rate and game plan. Aren't these areas within the responsibility of the coach.

If we ignore the 2021 season the issues have been there since 2017 and even in 2021 we blew a chance at the flag because we had some weeks of putrid displays that cost us a top 4 spot and an easier path to the GF.

Beveridge was responsible for all of that.

He has a chance to address and show some improvement, but if we continue like we were last week he should be gone by mid-season.

[mjp]

Beveridge was responsible for all of that.


If you're blamed for the bad then you need to receive credit for the good.

I have quoted Bulldog Joe here but the following isn't really directed at him...I genuinely have no horse in this race right now. I think Bevo has been amazing throughout (and I believe the poor start to 2023 CAN be quickly turned around) however I just get the feeling that since the 2021 GF things haven't quite been 'right' and his relationship with the members/supporters is primarily what i am referring too...Personally I don't think our list is that great and I think the decision to recruit Lobb (in particular) and Jones at the end of last season was poor. I have been pretty consistent on that and my reasons (they are old and will most likely be injury prone - exactly like the Stef Martin decision) and Lobb plays a position where we already have a surplus of players...anyway...enough of that - Bevo was no doubt part of the decision making and therefore HE needs to make it work. But as a supporter group, no doubt the majority opinion is that we are under performing and the continual use of 'stupid' tactics (outside 5, zone defense) is a major reason for this.

I see a heap of fair points being made about no top 4 etc but when you do that you need to give credit for still making the grand final...I know it's all emotional - I get it - but I would like to remind everyone that however you feel Bevo did not break into your house and steal from your family...he is actually trying his best.

Be for him or against him but blaming him for the bad without acknowledging some of the achievements just doesn't seem fair to me.

[Rocco Jones]

Be for him or against him but blaming him for the bad without acknowledging some of the achievements just doesn't seem fair to me.

It's funny the blame he has received throughout. Part of it is his time has come with such highs and lows. Say we swapped 2017-18 and put them at start. 2021 was more a build than highs and lows. Same performances but staggered differently, the appreciation would be a lot higher.

I am in the camp that thinks he is probably done but definitely should be given more time (unless he has completely 'lost' the players but we aren't to know and that's the case anytime. You can be coming off a flag but if you deeply upset the majority of squad, you are probably cooked).

Remarkable how much of his time has involved our fans being upset at him in one way or another. Coming off Blackotber, 2014:
- 6/8 years in finals
- 2 Grand Finals
- 1 Premiership

This is a great reign for any club, let alone one with our, let's say success starved, history.

[Bulldog Joe]

It's funny the blame he has received throughout. Part of it is his time has come with such highs and lows. Say we swapped 2017-18 and put them at start. 2021 was more a build than highs and lows. Same performances but staggered differently, the appreciation would be a lot higher.

I am in the camp that thinks he is probably done but definitely should be given more time (unless he has completely 'lost' the players but we aren't to know and that's the case anytime. You can be coming off a flag but if you deeply upset the majority of squad, you are probably cooked).

Remarkable how much of his time has involved our fans being upset at him in one way or another. Coming off Blackotber, 2014:
- 6/8 years in finals
- 2 Grand Finals
- 1 Premiership

This is a great reign for any club, let alone one with our, let's say success starved, history.

This success starved mentality is something I have a real issue with.

Why can't we aspire and achieve continued success.

When Brendan Gale became the CEO at Richmond he gave an aim to have 100K members and 3 flags in 10 years for a club that had been a basket case for about 30 years.

He aspired and ACHIEVED.

We need to do that.

[bornadog]

This success starved mentality is something I have a real issue with.

Why can't we aspire and achieve continued success.

When Brendan Gale became the CEO at Richmond he gave an aim to have 100K members and 3 flags in 10 years for a club that had been a basket case for about 30 years.

He aspired and ACHIEVED.

We need to do that.

Nothing wrong with the aspirations. What Richmond achieved is rare.

I know Geelong hasn't won too many flags, but they are a top 4 team almost every year and give themselves a chance to get more premierships. We need to be like them at minimum.

[Rocco Jones]

This success starved mentality is something I have a real issue with.

Why can't we aspire and achieve continued success.

When Brendan Gale became the CEO at Richmond he gave an aim to have 100K members and 3 flags in 10 years for a club that had been a basket case for about 30 years.

He aspired and ACHIEVED.

We need to do that.

Oh I agree. It shouldn't change our expectations. I am saying I'd have thought we would appreciate his reign more in general.

If I was told in October, 2021, our next 8 seasons would equal 6 finals appearances, two grand finals and 1 flag, I would have thought Bevo would be seen a god by our fans. Not really having a go at the fans or defending Bevo as such, just amazing the durations in which our fans have been highly critical of him. Speaks to the highs and lows we've had with him. Like two grand finals, 6 finals and NEVER a top four finish.

[bornadog]

Oh I agree. It shouldn't change our expectations. I am saying I'd have thought we would appreciate his reign more in general.

If I was told in October, 2021, our next 8 seasons would equal 6 finals appearances, two grand finals and 1 flag, I would have thought Bevo would be seen a god by our fans. Not really having a go at the fans or defending Bevo as such, just amazing the durations in which our fans have been highly critical of him. Speaks to the highs and lows we've had with him. Like two grand finals, 6 finals and NEVER a top four finish.

October 2021? or 2014?

Listening to his press conference moments ago, a reporter asked him about the flack he has been receiving and this would be the first time. He said he copped a lot of abuse in 2017/18 and even 19.

As MJP said, you have to acknowledge the good as well as the bad.

[mjp]

This success starved mentality is something I have a real issue with.



But we are success starved...isn't that just stating a fact?

Our history is that we are the best side outside of the finals...every year...with an occasional burst up or down the ladder.

Our history to to nurture champion players who finish their careers at other clubs.

Our history is that we are a club of great effort but low means.

We need to aspire for more in all areas and you would have to say in the Bevo 'era' whilst we haven't hit the heights of the Tiges (or Hawks of the mid-2000's) we have been pretty good...but it will take DECADES of similar performances to shake off 100 years of history.

In order to learn from history the first step is to acknowledge it...case in point - A great man once said that you are never finished as a footballer until you are recruited to play full-forward for Footscray. Rory Lobb - is that your music??

As for Brendan Gale - well, you could put his plans side by side with Carlton's 5-year plan from 2010...not everyone recruits Dusty Martin and (by the skin of their teeth) decides to retain an under the pump Damien Hardwick as coach at the end of 2016. Forks in the road. Are we at one? Well, only a history lesson conducted somewhere around 2027 will be able to tell us the answer to that!

[SonofScray]

Oh I agree. It shouldn't change our expectations. I am saying I'd have thought we would appreciate his reign more in general.

If I was told in October, 2021, our next 8 seasons would equal 6 finals appearances, two grand finals and 1 flag, I would have thought Bevo would be seen a god by our fans. Not really having a go at the fans or defending Bevo as such, just amazing the durations in which our fans have been highly critical of him. Speaks to the highs and lows we've had with him. Like two grand finals, 6 finals and NEVER a top four finish.

He has been seen and treated like a God. Not just by fans, but within the Club too. Fair enough too in some ways, we've played some absolutely perfect football under him, the only better football I've seen than us at our best, is what the Demons did after 1/2 time in the GF.

This conversation about his tenure was probably strongest, until now, in 2018 and briefly in 2020. Even then though, you couldn't even raise the concerns on different platforms without getting absolutely lambasted by the faithful. Its been a source of great amusement to some folk I know that just cannot conceive how I could be unhappy with the coach, after all he is a master motivator, a psychological mastermind and took us to the Promised Land.

That those folk are now open to the conversation feels really telling to me. I'm prepared to accept that I went very early, but there is a risk in waiting until the horse has bolted too.

[Jeanette54]

Seriously, reading some of these angst-ridden comments I thought I had inadvertently got into Bomber Blitz.

[Mantis]

Seriously, reading some of these angst-ridden comments I thought I had inadvertently got into Bomber Blitz.

Are you serious?

Besides one comment about the president all I see in this thread is posters offering up their opinions on the situation the club finds itself in after we could only be described as a horrendous start to the season.

Posters have added reasoning to their views which is all we can ask for on a public forum.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Bevo's reign has been very unique and it's why the opinions on this thread are so divided.

Sure, 6/8 seasons playing finals including 2 grand finals and 1 flag is a great result. We'd all have taken that on January 1 2015.

But we can also hope for more. And with the list we had in 2015, you'd be hard to argue that we shouldn't have had more established success like Geelong, Richmond and Sydney had in their drought breaking flags. It's also been tough to see the same issues present themselves over the years during the reign.

2 seasons without finals immediately following a flag wasn't great. Absolutely capitulating in 35 minutes of a grand final wasn't great. Being belted by the giants in 2019 wasn't great. Losing to the crappy saints in 2020 wasn't great. Capitulating again against freo in 2022 wasn't great. Falling out of the top 4 in 2021 wasn't great. These have been some historic collapses over a number of years. So yes, we've had great success. But we've also had great failures during Bevo's reign.

[SonofScray]

Just listened to Bevo's press conference. A few observations and comments.

He has presented himself well under some pressure, thought he offered a good perspective on how he is managing and perceiving his role in this bad patch of form. Can't fault him on that front, he is very consistent there. Always backs himself and the staff and the players in.

He made a comment along the lines of being very surprised at the form, given expectations are high and indicators in the preseason suggested we be up and about. The level of surprise I think is interesting, he and the coaching group seem to be caught off guard there.

Rejects the notion that our approach to fitness or this preseason specifically has been botched. Noted that variations can occur week to week with availability. I wasn't so convinced here.

Recognises that folk are "up in arms" and that he is under some scrutiny again, as he was in 2017 through 2019.

In all, he presented himself well, gave me some confidence in his own assessments of things and will back himself in. The margin for error is incredibly slim though, and I feel like he knows it too.

[Bulldog Joe]

But we are success starved...isn't that just stating a fact?

Our history is that we are the best side outside of the finals...every year...with an occasional burst up or down the ladder.

Our history to to nurture champion players who finish their careers at other clubs.

Our history is that we are a club of great effort but low means.

We need to aspire for more in all areas and you would have to say in the Bevo 'era' whilst we haven't hit the heights of the Tiges (or Hawks of the mid-2000's) we have been pretty good...but it will take DECADES of similar performances to shake off 100 years of history.

In order to learn from history the first step is to acknowledge it...case in point - A great man once said that you are never finished as a footballer until you are recruited to play full-forward for Footscray. Rory Lobb - is that your music??

As for Brendan Gale - well, you could put his plans side by side with Carlton's 5-year plan from 2010...not everyone recruits Dusty Martin and (by the skin of their teeth) decides to retain an under the pump Damien Hardwick as coach at the end of 2016. Forks in the road. Are we at one? Well, only a history lesson conducted somewhere around 2027 will be able to tell us the answer to that!

My issue is the readiness we seem to have as a club to accept that as our lot.

If you aspire to mediocrity that is the best you can get.
If you accept mediocrity you will ultimately be unsuccessful.

[bornadog]

My issue is the readiness we seem to have as a club to accept that as our lot.

Who is accepting it?

[Bulldog Joe]

Who is accepting it?

Well my original post was in reply to a post that I saw as accepting of us being a success starved club. (Sorry Rocco)

There is plenty of commentary from media, fans and opposition indicating we are destined to be an also ran.

We need the belief in the club and the Club needs belief that we matter and can be a sustained power in the competition.

[bornadog]

Well my original post was in reply to a post that I saw as accepting of us being a success starved club. (Sorry Rocco)

There is plenty of commentary from media, fans and opposition indicating we are destined to be an also ran.

We need the belief in the club and the Club needs belief that we matter and can be a sustained power in the competition.

I think if you talk to people in the club they are very bullish about the future. Off field we are kicking goals with a $70 million redevelopment, our balance sheet is strong and we are bullish about the talent we have. We have high expectations for this season and the future. Hopefully we can still hit our targets on field.

[GVGjr]

I think if you talk to people in the club they are very bullish about the future. Off field we are kicking goals with a $70 million redevelopment, our balance sheet is strong and we are bullish about the talent we have. We have high expectations for this season and the future. Hopefully we can still hit our targets on field.

Is that view formed by discussions within the last couple of weeks or is that from discussions at the season launch?
Things move quickly, I'm not sure we are as robust in our convictions right at this moment.

[bornadog]

Is that view formed by discussions within the last couple of weeks or is that from discussions at the season launch?
Things move quickly, I'm not sure we are as robust in our convictions right at this moment.

Just in general, plus Season Launch. The last two weeks is more the supporters worried. Two games don't make a season.

[GVGjr]

Just in general, plus Season Launch. The last two weeks is more the supporters worried. Two games don't make a season.

Sure it's more that supporters are worried as that is a given but on discussions I've had lets not rule out some concerns internally.
A win or at the very least a spirited performance would be well received.

[G-Mo77]

Sure it's more that supporters are worried as that is a given but on discussions I've had lets not rule out some concerns internally.
A win or at the very least a spirited performance would be well received.

I hope we're not already in the territory of spirited losses being acceptable. I could insert a Terry Wallace line in here. :)

[Rocco Jones]

Well my original post was in reply to a post that I saw as accepting of us being a success starved club. (Sorry Rocco)

There is plenty of commentary from media, fans and opposition indicating we are destined to be an also ran.

We need the belief in the club and the Club needs belief that we matter and can be a sustained power in the competition.

I was saying it about our fans. We were objectively success starved when Bevo took over. I would assume a club with less success would fawn over success more. Perhaps my point actually supports yours. I was not stating in a positive or negative lens.

1/ we were success starved
2/ I would assume a success starved fanbase would rated a reign with a flag, another GF and 75% finals hit rate higher


FWIW when people say 'I don't accept mediocrity', it reminds me of what Richmond would say when I was growing up in late 80s-90s.

[Stevo]

I think if you talk to people in the club they are very bullish about the future. Off field we are kicking goals with a $70 million redevelopment, our balance sheet is strong and we are bullish about the talent we have. We have high expectations for this season and the future. Hopefully we can still hit our targets on field.

So the club rates our list?

[bornadog]

Sure it's more that supporters are worried as that is a given but on discussions I've had lets not rule out some concerns internally.
A win or at the very least a spirited performance would be well received.

My response is about the long term of the club, not the last two weeks

[bornadog]

So the club rates our list?

Don't know, do they

[Bulldog Joe]

Don't know, do they

The recruitment at the end of 22 indicates that the club did/does rate the list.

You add experience when you believe you are contending at that is what we did with Liam Jones and Lobb.

[Stevo]

Don't know, do they

Your comment indicated that you knew the club rates this list. Apparently you are not so sure now.

[Grantysghost]

Don't know, do they

Top 4 was the talk so I'd say so.

[bornadog]

Your comment indicated that you knew the club rates this list. Apparently you are not so sure now.

Bulldog Joe answered for me

[Jasper]

Im starting to question Berveridges value for us and while I want us to wait and be patient for the results to flow it would be negligent not to start to think about some options.
I was listening to Sanderson on SEN and some of his observations about where we are falling down are damning to say the least.

[Mantis]

Im starting to question Berveridges value for us and while I want us to wait and be patient for the results to flow it would be negligent not to start to think about some options.
I was listening to Sanderson on SEN and some of his observations about where we are falling down are damning to say the least.

For those of us that weren't listening can you share what his observations were?

[mjp]

Im starting to question Berveridges value for us and while I want us to wait and be patient for the results to flow it would be negligent not to start to think about some options.
I was listening to Sanderson on SEN and some of his observations about where we are falling down are damning to say the least.

Of course. We've been putrid.

This is where the industry sucks though - Sanderson was moved on by Adelaide and, whilst I'm not saying he's 'DONE', has not exactly jumped back into the fire - I think he's working with umpires now??? Sitting on the outside throwing rocks is way easier than trying to fix things...Good on him for earning a living but watching the Saints game and pointing out some shortcomings isn't exactly rocket science.

How do you FIX them? Well, that's the challenge right. And that's why what Sando does what he does now rather than coach.

[GVGjr]

For those of us that weren't listening can you share what his observations were?

I heard most of it. He mentioned that the opposition getting 100 marks is a red flag to many coaches, last year the average against us was 108 and off a small sample size this year is 120. That needs to be fixed. He just methodically worked though some of the challenges we are facing and offered some thoughts on what we might be able to do.

[GVGjr]

Of course. We've been putrid.

This is where the industry sucks though - Sanderson was moved on by Adelaide and, whilst I'm not saying he's 'DONE', has not exactly jumped back into the fire - I think he's working with umpires now??? Sitting on the outside throwing rocks is way easier than trying to fix things...Good on him for earning a living but watching the Saints game and pointing out some shortcomings isn't exactly rocket science.

How do you FIX them? Well, that's the challenge right. And that's why what Sando does what he does now rather than coach.

He does a regular segment with SEN on a Thursday and is now the director of sport of Mentone grammar.
He certainly didn't appear to be throwing rocks our way and talked about some of the things we needed to focus on. He mentioned a few times he rates Bevo.

I'll see if I can find the link.

Strategy 2023 (https://megaphone.link/NTETP1451162099)

[Mantis]

I heard most of it. He mentioned that the opposition getting 100 marks is a red flag to many coaches, last year the average against us was 108 and off a small sample size this year is 120. That needs to be fixed. He just methodically worked though some of the challenges we are facing and offered some thoughts on what we might be able to do.

I wonder if Ross the Boss cares too much about that number?

St.Kilda have conceded 136 & 117 marks in their games this year yet have restricted the opposition to scores of 52 & 42.

To me it's where they're taking marks rather than pure numbers... St.Kilda are giving up the sideways kick, but defending the 45deg which can open up the field.

[Happy Days]

I wonder if Ross the Boss cares too much about that number?

St.Kilda have conceded 136 & 117 marks in their games this year yet have restricted the opposition to scores of 52 & 42.

To me it's where they're taking marks rather than pure numbers... St.Kilda are giving up the sideways kick, but defending the 45deg which can open up the field.

I think RTB actually prefers it when the other team has the ball.

[Rocco Jones]

I wonder if Ross the Boss cares too much about that number?

St.Kilda have conceded 136 & 117 marks in their games this year yet have restricted the opposition to scores of 52 & 42.

To me it's where they're taking marks rather than pure numbers... St.Kilda are giving up the sideways kick, but defending the 45deg which can open up the field.

100%. A symptom of Lyon's pressure/effective defending of space is actually conceding more marks. Opposition kicking sideways with no purpose other than giving them more time.

[bornadog]

100%. A symptom of Lyon's pressure/effective defending of space is actually conceding more marks. Opposition kicking sideways with no purpose other than giving them more time.

When you have 30 plus players on one side of the ground, teams will kick sideways to get around the zone. We didn't do it effectively enough.

[mjp]

I heard most of it. He mentioned that the opposition getting 100 marks is a red flag to many coaches, last year the average against us was 108 and off a small sample size this year is 120. That needs to be fixed. He just methodically worked though some of the challenges we are facing and offered some thoughts on what we might be able to do.

Why does it need to be fixed? Some coaches prefer it when the oppo chip it around - against Collingwood or Richmond or the 2022 version of Geelong, forcing a lot of uncontested marks would be a positive as it takes them out of their usual mode of operation...It's about doing things the way YOU want, not about mindlessly looking at stats and saying this is good and this is bad.

I was probably harsh on Sanderson but I'm grouchy today and honestly I'm so tired of people who used to coach but now don't - or never have - telling the current day coaches what they are doing right/wrong...comment on the game and try and give us a window into what you THINK they are trying to do. Don't tell me x clearances/tackles/uncontested marks are bad because you don't KNOW what they are trying to do.

And yes, David King, Daisy Pearce, Jonathon Brown etc - I'm talking to you guys. Give us some insight and opinion, not the numbers on the champion data sheet and not the stuff on the screen in front of our eyes.

Hawthorn won the clearances easily last week and were spanked by Sydney. Does that mean Sydney are no good at stoppages and should be concerned or is it something else? And if it's something else, what else is it?

[SonofScray]

Interesting that Brisbane played a style of footy that seemed like it wasn't going to give us any great grief last night. In fact, at times, it was like looking in a mirror, the way they set up and tried to move the footy. Maybe they can't run the footy? Or don't trust themselves to go hard up the middle.

Just thought that was interesting in the context of whether how we are travelling is a coaching, or player issue. Obviously, reality is more complex than that. I believe we have the talent that if they are up and going, can beat anyone on their day. I don't know how many days we have in us, or if today is the day, or not. Maybe they can build that belief again by going on a run of form equally as impressive as the last fortnight was depressing.

Bevo did well during the week to address some concerns, he is a stoic guy, regardless of the broader conversation. Recall he said "we've been here before" which is equally frustrating as it was comforting. We know we have that in us.

Outside of this forum, the typically snarky "still wanna sack the coach?" stuff kicked in post game for me. The answer is yes, but the thing that will cool very quickly, is when I want that to happen. Balance the ledger and that sharp axe I have ready to go, I'd be comfortable to settle on putting it away until R12 at least and just try and enjoy the ride and look for where the gains will come from.

[mjp]

The answer is yes, but the thing that will cool very quickly, is when I want that to happen.

...which is the right viewpoint, 'cos whether you are yay or nay for Bevo, ONE GAME (at Marvel no less) shouldn't change your opinion. Just like two shouldn't have...

[GVGjr]

It's good to see some of the pressure come off Bevo but we've still got some heavy lifting to complete over the next few rounds.
We are not out of the sights of the media just yet.

[jeemak]

I've noted it's come off Bevo, but only with the caveat that Brisbane were very bad and we got lots of free kicks we didn't deserve that led to goals.

He'll be under pressure all season, no matter how competitive we are.

[Rocco Jones]

It's good to see some of the pressure come off Bevo but we've still got some heavy lifting to complete over the next few rounds.
We are not out of the sights of the media just yet.

In terms of the media, hard to judge something with so little logic.

We had had two awful performances and one good/ok performance. 'Good' mainly due to effort. We definitely should have 'pressure' or whatever we want to go with.

[GVGjr]

I've noted it's come off Bevo, but only with the caveat that Brisbane were very bad and we got lots of free kicks we didn't deserve that led to goals.

He'll be under pressure all season, no matter how competitive we are.

There are a few levels of coaching pressure though and it we were to get to 3 and 3 after 6 games the media's focus will be elsewhere. Getting Lobb right could be a huge help for our chances.

[GVGjr]

In terms of the media, hard to judge something with so little logic.

We had had two awful performances and one good/ok performance. 'Good' mainly due to effort. We definitely should have 'pressure' or whatever we want to go with.

Port are another loss from being right in the spotlight but you're probably right it we might still be a focus.
Geelong losing might help and also be a spirit lifter for so many of our fans. :)

[jeemak]

Port are another loss from being right in the spotlight but you're probably right it we might still be a focus.
Geelong losing might help and also be a spirit lifter for so many of our fans. :)

Man if Geelong missed the finals with their home ground advantage that would be something.

[EasternWest]

Man if Geelong missed the finals with their home ground advantage that would be something.

Sedat has entered the chat.

[jeemak]

Sedat has entered the chat.

They'd probably just get the AFL media and the AFL itself to admit they just need more games at the MCG or something......

[Sedat]

Man if Geelong missed the finals with their home ground advantage that would be something.
They will still beat us in 2023 whether they make finals or not. It's just what happens.

I'm dirty I changed my tip from Gold Coast to Geelong just before the opening bounce - gut feel is they are cooked from key defensive injuries and unacceptable midfield output (Selwood retiring has had a much bigger impact on them than imagined). Cameron is playing out of his skin and they are still nowhere near the level. Of course they will get their mojo back at some stage, just in time for when they play us.

[mjp]

Of course they will get their mojo back at some stage, just in time for when they play us.

Yeah, well.

We have to worry about Richmond first. I don't think Geelong supporters even care right now - they seem certain it's all gonna be OK.

[Sedat]

Yeah, well.

We have to worry about Richmond first. I don't think Geelong supporters even care right now - they seem certain it's all gonna be OK.
Yup. We are a week to week proposition. The grunt work and full ground defensive accountability was addressed this week at least (against a notionally contending opponent), so hopefully that remains the standard and we can gradually add other layers to the offensive transition and F50 connection parts of our game. We are a good team - it was important for player confidence to reinforce that on Thursday night. Can we become great?

[mjp]

Can we become great?

Of COURSE we can.

The question isn't 'CAN WE' but WILL WE...and how the players REALLY feel about their performance vs St Kilda will be revealed in the upcoming weeks...sure, we responded and got the Lions. It wasn't convincing (5 kicks for 5 goals doesn't happen too often!) but we got em. If it REALLY matters to the players, then the reaction to the win internally will be a 'you ain't seen nothing yet' and we can expect some big performances over the next couple of weeks as the players individual confidence levels rise to match their effort levels...

[Rocket Science]

Yup. We are a week to week proposition. The grunt work and full ground defensive accountability was addressed this week at least (against a notionally contending opponent), so hopefully that remains the standard and we can gradually add other layers to the offensive transition and F50 connection parts of our game. We are a good team - it was important for player confidence to reinforce that on Thursday night. Can we become great?

Three rounds plainly don't make a season but it's quite something to dish this up having made it an explicit focus of our pre-season.

https://i.ibb.co/VxxVpJp/Screen-Shot-2023-04-03-at-4-37-41-pm.png (https://ibb.co/bFF1RQR)

[bornadog]

Some graphs by Richard Little here (https://twitter.com/alittlefitness/status/1642778564050419713/photo/1) These graphs show where we are at.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsxPF6uakAAbXcm?format=png&name=large

[bornadog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsxPMtraIAM6Qde?format=png&name=large

[bornadog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsxPZ4bagAEUIIK?format=png&name=large

[bornadog]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsxP9nbaYAYORNO?format=png&name=large

[SonofScray]

Some graphs by Richard Little here (https://twitter.com/alittlefitness/status/1642778564050419713/photo/1) These graphs show where we are at.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsxPF6uakAAbXcm?format=png&name=large

Sort of validates my thinking that watching Brisbane was like looking in a. mirror at some points of our game.

[Jasper]

Yup. We are a week to week proposition. The grunt work and full ground defensive accountability was addressed this week at least (against a notionally contending opponent), so hopefully that remains the standard and we can gradually add other layers to the offensive transition and F50 connection parts of our game. We are a good team - it was important for player confidence to reinforce that on Thursday night. Can we become great?

A win on Saturday would be huge for a return of some self belief for the players, coaches and us fans.

[chef]

Some graphs by Richard Little here (https://twitter.com/alittlefitness/status/1642778564050419713/photo/1) These graphs show where we are at.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsxPF6uakAAbXcm?format=png&name=large

Richard Little, how unfortunate.

[jeemak]

Richard Little, how unfortunate.

It is possible to snigger with a face full of macaroons.

[Grantysghost]

Richard Little, how unfortunate.

I tell no lie I worked in the same org as a Richard Head.

Doctor no less.

Takes every ounce of professionalism to tame the inner teenager when he's introduced.

[Dogs 24/7]

I dont feel right saying this but we should be exploring other coaching candidates just in case things dont fall our way by mid season. After 9 years at the helm he might not be prepared to adapt to a changing football environment. I watched Collingwood and they have jumped out and are playing exciting football. I feel that at some point we will need to start exploring coaching candidates even if we dont actually make any change. The people I sit near are loyal and balanced supporters with their and they are starting to ask the question about looking at other coaches.

[Bulldog Joe]

I am definitely in the camp of exploring options.

The performances at Collingwood and St Kilda highlight that coaching matters.

Even Essendon and North have improved with a change of philosophy.

[1eyedog]

I know you're not implying this but I think it's a case of new coach syndrome and I don't expect St Kilda, North or Essendon to play finals and expect the latter two to finish bottom 4.

St Kilda will only just miss out because they've got a draw softer than marshmallow.

More than happy to start canvassing options after round 18 if we've fallen into a black hole.

[Bulldog Joe]

I know you're not implying this but I think it's a case of new coach syndrome and I don't expect St Kilda, North or Essendon to play finals and expect the latter two to finish bottom 4.

St Kilda will only just miss out because they've got a draw softer than marshmallow.

I know there is an element of new coach syndrome and they may revert to type (particularly Essendon).

Collingwood have sustained a good (lucky) run in 2022 despite some serious injury troubles.
Coaching matters and I am not convinced ours is keeping up.

[Rocket Science]

Three rounds plainly don't make a season but it's quite something to dish this up having made it an explicit focus of our pre-season.

https://i.ibb.co/VxxVpJp/Screen-Shot-2023-04-03-at-4-37-41-pm.png (https://ibb.co/bFF1RQR)

Look not to labour this but I'm actually quietly impressed we're roughly twice as leaky as the 2nd and 3rd worst Hawks & Eagles respectively after six months of mea culpas while saying - and presumably practicing - all the right things.

I also found pause for thought after the snippet of Bevo's post-game back pat to the group the club chose to release, expressing fitting pride for the collective effort with a liberal dose of 'see, this is what's you're capable of when you play that way' that almost struck me as a mild plea.

Colour me naive but you'd like to think a playing group that has found cruel and mystifying ways to soil the bed at key moments doesn't still need convincing there might be a little bit to prove, to themselves if nothing else.

I've no doubt they're being fed the right internal messages. I'm curious if they're listening.

Anyway, cue another instructive test this week.

[Mantis]

Look not to labour this but I'm actually quietly impressed we're roughly twice as leaky as the 2nd and 3rd worst Hawks & Eagles respectively after six months of mea culpas while saying - and presumably practicing - all the right things.

I also found pause for thought after the snippet of Bevo's post-game back pat to the group the club chose to release, expressing fitting pride for the collective effort with a liberal dose of 'see, this is what's you're capable of when you play that way' that almost struck me as a mild plea.

Colour me naive but you'd like to think a playing group that has found cruel and mystifying ways to soil the bed at key moments doesn't still need convincing there might be a little bit to prove, to themselves if nothing else.

I've no doubt they're being fed the right internal messages. I'm curious if they're listening.

Anyway, cue another instructive test this week.

It was odd given we get pretty much zero insider access, except little tid-bits that they decided to release this almost extended discussion post-game.

The next 3 weeks are crucial... anything worse than 2-1 will pretty much give us no chance of pushing up towards a top 4 spot which still needs to be the aim.. we watch with interest.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Collingwood aren't really on a level playing field given the better access to trade in players than smaller clubs get. But they are having another season of success under Macrae.

I think coaching certainly matters but there is always an element of a breath of fresh air. We had it with Beveridge. In many sports around the world there are coaches who can sustain success and others who need to move on from club to club. Mourhino might be a good example of that.

As for the saints. Well Lyon is a proven coach and he has them playing excellent football. A lot of the success is coming from battler type players. Time will tell if they can sustain it, but they've got Steele, King and Membrey all to come back. I think they will play finals.

[GVGjr]

I know you're not implying this but I think it's a case of new coach syndrome and I don't expect St Kilda, North or Essendon to play finals and expect the latter two to finish bottom 4.

St Kilda will only just miss out because they've got a draw softer than marshmallow.

More than happy to start canvassing options after round 18 if we've fallen into a black hole.

I think it also confirms there are still coaches out there to consider and that clubs shouldn't be frightened to make changes.
We clearly under performed last year and given we then went out and topped up on 3 experienced players we have to hold the club to a standard and to deliver something better this year.

[GVGjr]

Collingwood aren't really on a level playing field given the better access to trade in players than smaller clubs get. But they are having another season of success under Macrae.

I think coaching certainly matters but there is always an element of a breath of fresh air. We had it with Beveridge. In many sports around the world there are coaches who can sustain success and others who need to move on from club to club. Mourhino might be a good example of that.

As for the saints. Well Lyon is a proven coach and he has them playing excellent football. A lot of the success is coming from battler type players. Time will tell if they can sustain it, but they've got Steele, King and Membrey all to come back. I think they will play finals.

Who of a high standard have they traded in? Mitchell was shopped around by the Hawks, McStay is hardly a star, Hill wasn't setting the world on fire and no one was interested in Frampton. I hate to say it but they've done exceptionally well with their player development.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Who of a high standard have they traded in? Mitchell was shopped around by the Hawks, McStay is hardly a star, Hill wasn't setting the world on fire and no one was interested in Frampton. I hate to say it but they've done exceptionally well with their player development.

They have recently done very well with player development. I agree. Probably more talking generally when star players typically nominate the big Victorian clubs when asking for a trade. I actually don't hate Collingwood at the moment.

[bornadog]

They have recently done very well with player development. I agree. Probably more talking generally when star players typically nominate the big Victorian clubs when asking for a trade. I actually don't hate Collingwood at the moment.

Playing at the MCG in front of big crowds - you can't blame them.

Some other imports are Taylor Adams, Bobby Hill, Mihocek, Jeremy Howe, Patt Lipinski, Jack Crisp, along with recent add ins

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Playing at the MCG in front of big crowds - you can't blame them.

Some other imports are Taylor Adams, Bobby Hill, Mihocek, Jeremy Howe, Patt Lipinski, Jack Crisp, along with recent add ins

No you can't blame them and that's what I wanted to highlight. As a smaller club, we can't bring in outside talent as frequently as Collingwood and other big clubs. We are much more dependant on the draft path which takes longer and means we are less likely to sustain success as we can't bring in ready made stars to complement our existing ones.

We have had sustained success because our list was quite young when we won the flag. But we're relying on guys drafted recently to do some very heavy lifting. Imagine if we had brought in a Tarranto or Lynch or Cameron etc?

Despite all that I think our list is capable of MUCH more.

[Bulldog Joe]

Playing at the MCG in front of big crowds - you can't blame them.

Some other imports are Taylor Adams, Bobby Hill, Mihocek, Jeremy Howe, Patt Lipinski, Jack Crisp, along with recent add ins

When did rookie drafting someone from Burnie Dockers via Port Melbourne count someone as an import.

[bornadog]

When did rookie drafting someone from Burnie Dockers via Port Melbourne count someone as an import.

Player not drafted as a youngster, but considered mature. The conversation was about developing own players.

[Bulldog Joe]

Player not drafted as a youngster, but considered mature. The conversation was about developing own players.

I think Collingwood can take a lot of credit for Mihocek. He was available to every club when they rookied him.

[GVGjr]

I think Collingwood can take a lot of credit for Mihocek. He was available to every club when they rookied him.

We start off saying that Collingwood have an unfair advantage in attracting players but as you point out Mihocek proves their development is working. I don't think their list is particularly strong but on the 3 games so far it's looks like the coach knows how to use the players he has in a very productive way. Interesting to see how they will handle losing Cameron and Cox for a period of time after trading our Grundy and now wanting a mid season trade period to address their ruck needs.

[Mantis]

Playing at the MCG in front of big crowds - you can't blame them.

Some other imports are Taylor Adams, Bobby Hill, Mihocek, Jeremy Howe, Patt Lipinski, Jack Crisp, along with recent add ins

No real big names in there when drafted/traded... pretty sure Crisp was the steak knives in the Beams deal.

[GVGjr]

No real big names in there when drafted/traded... pretty sure Crisp was the steak knives in the Beams deal.

They haven't been attracting genuine big name players via trades but have found a way of getting them all to be playing some effective football. Look at what they did with Roughead and he got something like 3 more years after he adjusted back into a KPD role.

[jeemak]

No you can't blame them and that's what I wanted to highlight. As a smaller club, we can't bring in outside talent as frequently as Collingwood and other big clubs. We are much more dependant on the draft path which takes longer and means we are less likely to sustain success as we can't bring in ready made stars to complement our existing ones.

We have had sustained success because our list was quite young when we won the flag. But we're relying on guys drafted recently to do some very heavy lifting. Imagine if we had brought in a Tarranto or Lynch or Cameron etc?

Despite all that I think our list is capable of MUCH more.

Much more than making a GF in 2021 and falling forty minutes short of victory? I get last year was terrible, but that's the thing with the AFL, if you're slightly off you're in danger of not getting your season going and missing out - which we did last year.

We don't have the best midfield, we don't have the best forwards, we don't have the best defenders, and we don't have the best depth. Our players select when to give maximum effort, and when not to which you just can't get away with at the top level.

But everyone expects us to compete every year with the very best as if it should be a given that we do.

The truth is a lot has to go right for that to happen. I'm optimistic those things can go right, but I don't expect them to.

[1eyedog]

No you can't blame them and that's what I wanted to highlight. As a smaller club, we can't bring in outside talent as frequently as Collingwood and other big clubs. We are much more dependant on the draft path which takes longer and means we are less likely to sustain success as we can't bring in ready made stars to complement our existing ones.

We have had sustained success because our list was quite young when we won the flag. But we're relying on guys drafted recently to do some very heavy lifting. Imagine if we had brought in a Tarranto or Lynch or Cameron etc?

Despite all that I think our list is capable of MUCH more.

You mean like a Premiership winning ruck / forward or a top 10 mid like Treloar?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Much more than making a GF in 2021 and falling forty minutes short of victory? I get last year was terrible, but that's the thing with the AFL, if you're slightly off you're in danger of not getting your season going and missing out - which we did last year.

We don't have the best midfield, we don't have the best forwards, we don't have the best defenders, and we don't have the best depth. Our players select when to give maximum effort, and when not to which you just can't get away with at the top level.

But everyone expects us to compete every year with the very best as if it should be a given that we do.

The truth is a lot has to go right for that to happen. I'm optimistic those things can go right, but I don't expect them to.

Yeah a lot has to go right. Our curious run with injuries have shown that and a lot had to go right in 2016. It'd just be nice to not have to also worry about whether the players can be stuffed any given week or should I say any given quarter.