Are we are a better team in 2023 without Dunkley?

[Dry Rot]

Dunkley obviously had his strengths, but he was also slow and a poor kick. We also had to shoehorn mids into other positions on the field.

With Dunkley gone and an in form Treloar back in the guts where he belongs, are we now a better team overall this season?

[Bulldog Joe]

Unfortunately after 4 rounds, we look to be much the same.

We still give up big runs of goals and we still struggle to get space forward.

Our kicking for goal has also not improved.

On the Dunkley question, we seem to have covered him with plenty of others to make a hash of their kicking.

[bulldogtragic]

Take it over two years. 2020-2022.

We replaced Dunkley with Treloar, as Adz was surplus to absolute need. On a cheaper salary (thanks to Collingwood) and cost us 127 Draft points for Adz. Got Pick 21, F1, F2 & F4. Wipe out the 127 Points for the F4.

End: Treloar replaces Dunkley in the middle and is on less ongoing salary while we got Charlie Clarke and the F1 & F2. The freedom to trade on Lobb as support for Tim, Naughton, Marra and move Bruce to defence.

I?m happy to say that overall, of the options:

* We have now found ourselves in
* No Treloar
* Retain Dunkley and play more mids out of position

I?m very, very comfortable to be where we are. Dunkley is a jet. But his going might be the forced change to make things better. FYI, both are having a similar output this season, with Adz ahead I?d argue:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=8&playerStatus2=A&tid2=20&type=A&pid1=3791&pid2=4148&fid1=S&fid2=S


The Dunkley walk out is far more impacting the side now and into the future than just Adz. Although Adz is delivering similar or better numbers than Dunkley so far, which is a welcome outcome.

[Mofra]

Well, theoretically he's the best defensive mid we had on the list so the 7 goal burst Richmond had last week may have been stopped.
But Dunks played in the 2021 GF, so....


I think we're better off this year, Adz will slow down next year (soft tissue risk too) so we'll be marginally worse off in 2024 & perhaps 2025, but we did get extra picks from the deal and if we turn that into something decent at the trade table (Bergmann/Doedee if Crows match an RFA bid) or a quality first round pick in the teens (Richards is about the level I'd expect) we might be ahead anyway.

Also noting what we do at mid-year, because it's Dunk's list spot we have free any mid-season draft player we get needs to be factored in.
Dunkley is quality though so I think the slow/poor kick stuff really needs to be balanced against his strengths - ball winning, marking ability for a mid, can kick goals.

[FrediKanoute]

I think we are better balanced in the middle. Treloar has been really good this year and I like his added pace and disposal effectiveness. I think Bont has stepped up his physicality to win the inside ball and create pressure and it works better.

[hujsh]

I think we are better balanced in the middle. Treloar has been really good this year and I like his added pace and disposal effectiveness. I think Bont has stepped up his physicality to win the inside ball and create pressure and it works better.

If Bont can continue to keep his defensive game up it's a big upgrade on having Dunks in the middle. For the talk about him being a 2 way mid I reckon he was still see ball get ball first and foremost, if you get what I mean. Like he didn't stop the opposition from getting the ball but he did tackle and smother when the opportunity presented itself. Bont and Libba are the two somewhat capable at that.

[azabob]

I think we are better balanced in the middle. Treloar has been really good this year and I like his added pace and disposal effectiveness. I think Bont has stepped up his physicality to win the inside ball and create pressure and it works better.

Great call on Treloar. I've been a huge fan of his and always thought he should've been in our first choice rotations. I'm glad he is now showing his value and how good he actually is.

[GVGjr]

Losing a player with as many years as Dunks has to play and a B&F winner to boot is a huge loss no matter how you look at it. It might solve a problem with a stacked midfield but it was a great problem to have.

[mjp]

Losing a player with as many years as Dunks has to play and a B&F winner to boot is a huge loss no matter how you look at it. It might solve a problem with a stacked midfield but it was a great problem to have.

Disagree. It was a problem WE created though and 'someone' simply had to go.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Sadly the big money on offer now $750,000 a year for 6 years for Dunkley to go to the Brisbane Lions is an outstanding example
of how some players are prone to the almighty dollar.. Our
dominance in the midfield against Richmond would suggest that Treloar and Bailey Smith have stepped up to fill the void whilst Maclean will also prove a valuable addition to the midfield. Dunkley has been unsettled for some time given his previous attempt to go to Essendon. We are fortunate to have the loyalty of the Bont Libba and Macrae to lead the charge.

[Bulldog4life]

It is never great to lose a current B & F winner however in this case I am glad it was a mid. We still have a strong mid field and as others have said we have the players to do the hard yards that Dinky did. Hopefully next draft we can draft one or two gun mids too.

[Happy Days]

I don’t think we can honestly say we’re better but I do think Dunkley himself was better with us playing some time forward than he has been at Brisbane playing actually every second in the midfield.

[hujsh]

I don’t think we can honestly say we’re better but I do think Dunkley himself was better with us playing some time forward than he has been at Brisbane playing actually every second in the midfield.

I just checked his stats and he's getting less of the ball and also hasn't kicked a goal (18 last year)
That's a bit disappointing from him you'd think

[Grantysghost]

I just checked his stats and he's getting less of the ball and also hasn't kicked a goal (18 last year)
That's a bit disappointing from him you'd think

McLuggage's output is down too. I wonder if they're having issues getting the mix right.

[bornadog]

Dunkley obviously had his strengths, but he was also slow and a poor kick. We also had to shoehorn mids into other positions on the field.

With Dunkley gone and an in form Treloar back in the guts where he belongs, are we now a better team overall this season?

I don't think we are missing Dunks at all. We have adjusted our rotations and as you say Treloar is back where he belongs, ie in the middle. Dunks was never a match winner, but I think Treloar with his pace can be.

[lemmon]

Think our midfield mix has been a lot better in the last few games and that reflects a change in Bont's role. He's added a lot of grunt to the midfield in the last fortnight - 18 tackles (+8 on rounds 1 and 2), 19 clearances (+7 on rounds 1 and 2), 33 contested possessions (+12 on rounds 1 and 2).

The Dunkley conversation extends past 2023 for me. Dunks has another 6 years as an AFL mid in him - besides Bailey Smith, I can't think of another player on our list that you could say that confidently about. It's an area of the ground that we need to inject some more young talent into, or it's going to be a rough transition when Treloar, Macrae, Libba and eventually Bont start to ride into the sunset.

[mjp]

McLuggage's output is down too. I wonder if they're are having issues getting the mix right.

Told'ya.

[Sedat]

Screw them but Essendon was absolutely the best fit for a player like Dunkley.

[Grantysghost]

Told'ya.

Was this another MJP magic prediction was it? My memory sucks for these things.

[angelopetraglia]

What are Dunkley's attributes? Tough. Strong. Great tackler. Contested possession beast. Strong overhead for his size.

What are his limitations? Poor kicking action. Poor shot for goal. Slow. Poor field kick. Not explosive. Can't breakaway from stoppages.

To be fair he is a poor mans Libba. Better contested mark than Libba (Dunks is 191cm, Libba 184cm) but with lower skill when it comes to field kicking, decision making and also set shots. Libba probably also has him covered for the intangible benefit of getting under an oppositions skin.

Having Dunkley and Libba in the midfield is a concern. It means that better ball using or more explosive mids get less time in the middle.

My two cents. If Libba is fit and firing. We are better team without Dunkley in the team. If we were to lose Libba, we would be crying out for Dunkley. Libba is 30. Dunkley is 26. So replacing Libba is going to be important.

Career Comparison in bold. Libba First. (This season in brackets)

Kicks 10 v 10 (12 v 11)
Handball 12 v12 (15 v 12)
Disposals 22 v 22 (27 v 24)
Marks 3 v 4 (3 v 5)
Goals 0.4 v 0.5 (0.8 v 0)
Tackles 5 v 5 (8 v 5)
Contested P 12 v 10 (11 v 13)
Dispo Eff % 73% v 71% (75% v 70%)
Cont. Mark 0.1 v 0.4 (0 v 0.8)
Clearances 6 v 4 (6 v 7)


So remarkably similar career stats. Where is there a difference? Contested marking. Tick Dunkley. Contested Possessions and Clearances. Tick Libba. Dunkley doesn't hurt you that much with his contested marking as his reliability as a goal kicker is horrendous. He has lost complete confidence in this area and it has actually got worse as his career has progressed.

[mjp]

Was this another MJP magic prediction was it? My memory sucks for these things.

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?22092-The-Dunkley-trade-from-the-Lions-perspective/page3

[angelopetraglia]

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?22092-The-Dunkley-trade-from-the-Lions-perspective/page3

"In getting Dunks they are telling me that they DON'T know where their list is at. Recruiting Dunks will keep young Bailey out of the midfield...he needs to be IN THERE. He can kick the footy and deliver it...It will keep Rayner out of the midfield...he NEEDS to be in there..."

Yes. 100%. Spot on.

[1eyedog]

"In getting Dunks they are telling me that they DON'T know where their list is at. Recruiting Dunks will keep young Bailey out of the midfield...he needs to be IN THERE. He can kick the footy and deliver it...It will keep Rayner out of the midfield...he NEEDS to be in there..."

Yes. 100%. Spot on.

Agreed. In addition Junkley moving out and Treloar moving in frees up a spot either at half back or half forward (where we were hiding Treloar) which enables us to play an actual half back (JJ) or a true half forward (if we had one - Hannan?) now.

[Grantysghost]

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?22092-The-Dunkley-trade-from-the-Lions-perspective/page3

So wise. Very good pick up.

[Mofra]

McLuggage's output is down too. I wonder if they're are having issues getting the mix right.
He's a brilliant wing or a 'good' mid.
I'm kind of glad Fagan is a little bit nuts

[Mofra]

Screw them but Essendon was absolutely the best fit for a player like Dunkley.
No surprise Setterfield is having an outstanding year. Exactly what they needed

[Prince Imperial]

What are Dunkley's attributes? Dunkley doesn't hurt you that much with his contested marking as his reliability as a goal kicker is horrendous. He has lost complete confidence in this area and it has actually got worse as his career has progressed.

He kicked 18.11 last season with a career history before that of 47.55 so this indicates substantial improvement in this area of his game.

[azabob]

McLuggage's output is down too. I wonder if they're having issues getting the mix right.

Not enough pre season running ;)

[Bulldog4life]

Not enough pre season running ;)

Maybe too much. Exhausted already. :D

[angelopetraglia]

He kicked 18.11 last season with a career history before that of 47.55 so this indicates substantial improvement in this area of his game.

Probably because when he is further than 30m out now he tries to offload it. I never trusted him as a set shot goal kicker.

[jeemak]

Another way of answering this would be - if Dunkley was available would we put him in our side?

The answer to that is yes, of course.

Should I start another trade Dunkley thread?

[mjp]

Another way of answering this would be - if Dunkley was available would we put him in our side?

The answer to that is yes, of course.


100% we would because he's a good player. But whilst we do need a 'bit' (and maybe the JJ move back addresses some of what we were missing) what Dunks brings is not really what we need. I never wanted him to leave though - he was awesome for us - but the whole 'jist' (is that a word) of the legendary "trade dunks" thread was not wrong.

[EasternWest]

100% we would because he's a good player. But whilst we do need a 'bit' (and maybe the JJ move back addresses some of what we were missing) what Dunks brings is not really what we need. I never wanted him to leave though - he was awesome for us - but the whole 'jist' (is that a word) of the legendary "trade dunks" thread was not wrong.

Wait till you see the " Trade Bailey Smith" that jeemak is working on.

[Grantysghost]

Wait till you see the " Trade Bailey Smith" that jeemak is working on.

Trade his hair cut at least.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Good player, we miss elements of his game, but we don't miss him.

For all his attributes defensively he didn't stop the rot once, and Treloar is quite frankly a better mid. Our balance is better.

Good player, but he's surplus to our needs.

[whythelongface]

Good question. Probably too early to tell right now. Definitely missed him our first two games but we were probably adjusting to life without him. Could have helped against Richmond’s run in last week but as others have alluded it was a recurring theme even with him in the team.

Without Dunks it means Treloar plays a different role. A role that he is more suited to. To me this makes us a better team. Thus right now I feel we are a better team with our current set up, however time will tell.

[MrMahatma]

I don’t think this year we miss him. Maybe in 2 when Libba hangs them up, and Macrae starts getting injured. But until then, we’re fine. We def need to be blooding some youth in those roles in the next couple of years though.

[angelopetraglia]

Good question. Probably too early to tell right now. Definitely missed him our first two games but we were probably adjusting to life without him. Could have helped against Richmond’s run in last week but as others have alluded it was a recurring theme even with him in the team.

Without Dunks it means Treloar plays a different role. A role that he is more suited to. To me this makes us a better team. Thus right now I feel we are a better team with our current set up, however time will tell.

Agree. A fit and firing Treloar is a better football than Dunkley.

[chef]

Would have been handy last night.

[angelopetraglia]

Would have been handy last night.

Conditions would have suited him.

But we didn't have him and we still completely dominated clearances and the midfield until the last 10 minutes of the game. If he played it would have probably meant less time in the middle for Treloar, Bont and Libba. I'm not too sure he would have been the difference.

The midfielders are given more opportunity than other players to influence games. Who you play there is critical. If Dunkley plays, it means you need to judge what he would have brought in those moments against our other choices last night.

Last year. Centre clearances for the Dogs. Averages.

Libba 2.7
Bont 2.5
Macrae 2.4
English 2.1
Dunkley 1.9
Smith 1.4

2023 Centre Clearances

Bont 3.8
Treloar 3.0
Libba 2.0
Macrae 1.0
English 0.8
Smith 0.8

So Treloar has basically replaced Dunks in the middle.

[The Underdog]

Honestly, I think we’d be pretty much the same team. I mean we were last year when he was here. Same strengths, same weaknesses (maybe stronger in the backline with Jones, but otherwise). He’s a very good player, but we’re an 8-12 team either way.