When the oppo get a run on, we need to GET THE BALL.

[mjp]

Richmond kicked a kagillion goals in q2 this week...and it seems to happen to us every week. We all complain about it - but there has to be a solution. The narrative is always 'we need our mids to defend' - which is true. Part of this year's narrative has been 'We lost our best two way mid in Dunks and now things are worse' - which may or may not be true...but regardless of what the talking heads have been saying, it's sort of a tricky situation.

We have a midfield that is obviously WELL set up around clearances - we win them pretty much every week - but just like the little girl with a curl, when it is bad it is HORRID. But mids who defend is really NOT the answer. We need to be in a defensive structure where we prevent the oppo going out the front of stoppage BUT we still need to be able to get the ball. In fact, GETTING the ball is the single solution to stopping the run on.

Assuming for just one second that personnel isn't the answer (and I think we need to do that to a point though Liber having just one possession in q2 vs Richmond does ring an alarm bell or two) then WHAT IS? What was different between q1 and q2 vs Richmond - and again between q2 and q3. If it is all down to attitude and intent, well...that's a cool story but it cannot be the answer. So what was different? What can we actually do? Do we need to nominate a 'Deep 6' team/setup that is applied anytime the oppo kick 3x goals in a row? Or is it a simple structural tweak...

[jeemak]

From what I saw with Saturday's game it seemed our defenders didn't body their opponents sufficiently/ play as close as they needed to - scared of being turned around and exposed out the back.

Or at least that's how it seemed from the couch. It was like Richmond's forwards were given a few metres and we paid for it. It never felt like we had sufficient presence in the contest to worry Richmond's forwards out of a good first touch.

There was also some panic that didn't help.

[azabob]

From what I saw with Saturday's game it seemed our defenders didn't body their opponents sufficiently/ play as close as they needed to - scared of being turned around and exposed out the back.

Or at least that's how it seemed from the couch. It was like Richmond's forwards were given a few metres and we paid for it. It never felt like we had sufficient presence in the contest to worry Richmond's forwards out of a good first touch.

There was also some panic that didn't help.

That is how Beveridge saw it from the coaches box. Interesting he put that on the record.

[Happy Days]

Agree that it’s not all on the mids, as plenty of those 8 goals were preventable through sound defence inside back 50. Bolton's one in particular should never have happened, with JJ ball watching and aimlessly drifting to the wrong side of the ball drop (he’s had a good fortnight but honestly when you’re responsible for Shai Bolton just follow him everywhere he’s gonna read the play better than you anyway). Ralphsmith’s snap was also the result of Caleb overcommitting on a ball fake to the wrong foot, and also Jones getting outwrestled by what we now know to have been a one legged man.

If we defend properly then there is two out of seven goals that become turnovers, or at worst stoppages instead. Where we, based on our dominance for the entire rest of the game, probably get the ball.

[1eyedog]

Structurally I have no idea but looking at the second quarter live the Tigers just moved the ball out of D50 so easily and had multiple options streaming forward. If it was dry I reckon they would have put another 2-3 goals on us at half time.

We really need to look at what we can control in our forward half and Weightman will help. I'd like to see McLean in there as well. Having C-grade personnel certainly doesn't help.

The momentum swing is a big issue. We need to really be focusing more on ball security and ball control so our backs aren't immediately put under the pump as soon as the opposition gain momentum.

Folding the wings back defensively across the centre of the ground and not having them push so hard forward may also help. There were a number of times that the Tigers had overlap across half back and through the middle of the ground under zero pressure. It's like we were a defender short every time a Richmond player got it across our half back line.

These are all preventative measures. How do we get it in the first place? No idea we have the best ball winners in the comp... Don't we?

[kruder]

Both Bruce and Jones dropped marks in key moments that enabled the pressure to build. Our key backs have been solid so far but we need more intercept marks from them, Jones seems to be going the spoil alot in the early rounds with is a little surprising.

We also need Bont to kick gettable goals when his time comes.

[bornadog]

Both Libba and Caleb went missing in the second quarter picking up 1 and 2 disposals respectively. Richmond also won a few crucial centre clearances and went straight down the ground to goal.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The point I take from you MJP is that we just do not seem to be able to get the ball in those situations and for the first two weeks as well.
It confounds me. A single clear possession then controlled possessions should halt opposition momentum.

[Mofra]

To grossly over-simplify it, when the opposition get a run on they're playing the game faster than we'd like, we simply have to slow the game down.
The best way is to do that possess the ball and chip kick to a free player. Most teams allow that chip kick to a less favourable position. Just a couple of minutes to slow the game down, take the heat out if it, perhaps frustrate the opposition and the crowd.

How do we possess it? Our wings simply have to set up on the defensive side and follow the ball down to our defence to try and create the out-number. Force a stoppage or two, even if it is in our defensive 50.

[jeemak]

To grossly over-simplify it, when the opposition get a run on they're playing the game faster than we'd like, we simply have to slow the game down.
The best way is to do that possess the ball and chip kick to a free player. Most teams allow that chip kick to a less favourable position. Just a couple of minutes to slow the game down, take the heat out if it, perhaps frustrate the opposition and the crowd.

How do we possess it? Our wings simply have to set up on the defensive side and follow the ball down to our defence to try and create the out-number. Force a stoppage or two, even if it is in our defensive 50.

Slowing the game down hasn't been a strength of ours. If anything, we double down on our pace of play and our tendency to overhandle the football and swarm the ball/ contest intensifies.

[Sedat]

Slowing the game down hasn't been a strength of ours. If anything, we double down on our pace of play and our tendency to overhandle the football and swarm the ball/ contest intensifies.
Yep. We have genuinely elite ball-winning mids who sometimes (and in game) don't respect the ball-winning/clearance ability of the opposition mids. This absolutely happened in the last 8 mins of the 3rd qtr of the 2021 GF and cost us a premiership - some tempo footy when we were 19 points up and flying would have been most welcome, because the Dees looked clueless for the previous 40 mins. Prior to 2021, Melbourne's elite midfield group were guilty of doing exactly this as well.

When opposition mids bring the heat in contest/clearance and stoppage, we have really struggled to stem the flow. Carlton, led by Cripps, have done this quite a bit in the past even when they were largely rubbish. It is possibly an attitudinal thing and also possibly a coaching group thing - bit of both I suspect.

As an aside, we collectively spend a lot of time and effort talking about team selection of our 19-23 players (such as McComb, West, Roarke Smith, Hannan, Schache in the past, etc..). The reality is that when our best 6-8 players fire, we are a high quality team and when they don't we can become very ordinary very quickly. Our cream got us in a position to win the 2021 GF and unfortunately their 8 minute lapse hurt us badly.

I hope we continue to discuss the merits or otherwise of McComb, Hannan and others - it is still fun to read (especially during match day threads in real time).

[Happy Days]

Slowing the game down hasn't been a strength of ours. If anything, we double down on our pace of play and our tendency to overhandle the football and swarm the ball/ contest intensifies.

This is a good point and something I’ve been guilty of in my own thinking - “we’re good and we have gun mids so we should want centre clearances” as fn Tom Sparrow waltzes inside 50 and slots a 14th straight goal or whatever.

[Mofra]

This is a good point and something I’ve been guilty of in my own thinking - “we’re good and we have gun mids so we should want centre clearances” as fn Tom Sparrow waltzes inside 50 and slots a 14th straight goal or whatever.
On top of that we're dead last this year in scoring from our D50.
You'd think most modern AFL players can bite off an uncontested 30m short pass so it's really an issue of either coaching or on-field decision making.
I know mjp is talking about ball winning, but even when teams are getting smashed there is some scope for concentrating on ball-retention, especially if we're forcing an out-number in one part of the ground.

[Grantysghost]

On top of that we're dead last this year in scoring from our D50.
You'd think most modern AFL players can bite off an uncontested 30m short pass so it's really an issue of either coaching or on-field decision making.
I know mjp is talking about ball winning, but even when teams are getting smashed there is some scope for concentrating on ball-retention, especially if we're forcing an out-number in one part of the ground.

You would hope that +1 that we ALWAYS push up to the contest stays put.
During those runs we could have +5 at the contest and still get burned.
I'd have to check the tape to see if that actually happened this week or we kept blindly pushing up. It's usually a half forward like Smith so it's not too hard to spot.
Creates overlap for oppo when we can't get hands on.

[JanLorMill]

How about starting a fight?

[Grantysghost]

How about starting a fight?

Now you're thinking.

Is this Alan Border?

[The bulldog tragician]

I once asked, and not sure if there was a definitive answer, what Melbourne did in GF 2021, when we were the ones running amok up til that blink-of-an-eye part of the game where we lost it. Because my recollection, though I had my hands over my eyes in horror so may not be the best judge, was that they went completely offensive (yeah, yeah, in more ways than one). I don’t THINK they tried to lock us down, they went for broke. Something worked for them, or maybe with Oliver and Petracca, they had two Ferraris to gun while we just had Bont.

[jeemak]

I once asked, and not sure if there was a definitive answer, what Melbourne did in GF 2021, when we were the ones running amok up til that blink-of-an-eye part of the game where we lost it. Because my recollection, though I had my hands over my eyes in horror so may not be the best judge, was that they went completely offensive (yeah, yeah, in more ways than one). I don’t THINK they tried to lock us down, they went for broke. Something worked for them, or maybe with Oliver and Petracca, they had two Ferraris to gun while we just had Bont.

They remained assertive without the football, and it paid off for them with an intercept across their half forward line that resulted in a goal against the run of play. Without that intercept another goal may have had them shaken.

From memory they scored immediately from the centre bounce or close enough to, and then again (think Libba going super offencive and Petracca blind turning with the footy without resistance out the front of the contest).

We didn't adjust, and just like that, it was done.

[1eyedog]

Re. turnovers there really seems to be a big issue with the way players are releasing the ball out of a tackle at the moment. Players are definitely panicking more when tackled for fear of getting caught HTB. Many players I watch even try to get rid of it haphazardly with no prior when they don't need to and it just ends up in the oppositions hands. Happend to most clubs I watched and I watch most games.

I guess spitting the ball out to a 50/50 is better than running the risk of HTB? Tells me that players have no idea what HTB actually is either but they should be focusing on getting a better feel for it so they can force a stoppage and reset rather than keep turning it over in bad places.

[bornadog]

Some coaches say just kick a goal yourself to stop the momentum

[GVGjr]

Some coaches say just kick a goal yourself to stop the momentum

And to do that most times it's best to control the ball. Keeping the opposition away from the ball is a skill we practice.

[bornadog]

And to do that most times it's best to control the ball. Keeping the opposition away from the ball is a skill we practice.
Need to get your hands on the ball first, which we struggle to do during those runs.

[EasternWest]

How about starting a fight?

Seconded. Give away a soft free and start a scuffle. Momentum stopped dead.

[Grantysghost]

Seconded. Give away a soft free and start a scuffle. Momentum stopped dead.

Or....or do the world game move.

Fake an injury.

Game management people!

Marking contest - go down holding your head. Get assessed. Walk off slowly. Wait ten mins. Come back on.

[Happy Days]

Seconded. Give away a soft free and start a scuffle. Momentum stopped dead.

What if you lose the fight?

I hear Melbourne have a couple of guys who can really hold them up.

[Grantysghost]

What if you lose the fight?

I hear Melbourne have a couple of guys who can really hold them up.

Schache will be at Casey.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xA1PKCt00IDew/giphy.gif

[EasternWest]

What if you lose the fight?

I hear Melbourne have a couple of guys who can really hold them up.

1. Lol. I haven't heard that before. Who could it be now?

2. Lol. We know AFL fights are just faux hardman occasionally torn jumper material. Which is why it's a great idea to fight on field to stop momentum.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re. turnovers there really seems to be a big issue with the way players are releasing the ball out of a tackle at the moment. Players are definitely panicking more when tackled for fear of getting caught HTB. Many players I watch even try to get rid of it haphazardly with no prior when they don't need to and it just ends up in the oppositions hands. Happend to most clubs I watched and I watch most games.

I guess spitting the ball out to a 50/50 is better than running the risk of HTB? Tells me that players have no idea what HTB actually is either but they should be focusing on getting a better feel for it so they can force a stoppage and reset rather than keep turning it over in bad places.

Actually 1of the issues I have with the current interpretation of the rules
Players hang on to the ball to get a stoppage when the ball isn't even locked in. If they try to dispose they often get pinged for incorrect disposal so they hang in and hope.
Keath got pinged this year for hanging onto the ball because he was not prepared to take the risk of trying to get it out.

How can players know what HTB is when the umpires don't

[Scorlibo]

What has stood out to me this year during these runs is that we look 'slow' on the spread, where that could mean a number of things be it lack of cardio fitness, leg speed, turnover reaction speed, or a lack of intent.

This is an example from the 2nd quarter where Pickett has burnt off McComb, Graham has got away from Treloar, and Clarke is gapping Baz. This is after a slow move forward from us with players starting side by side. Results in a set shot for Cumberland.

https://i.ibb.co/x5LRFLp/Screenshot-2023-04-11-at-8-21-48-pm.png (https://ibb.co/gg9B495)

A related issue is that we don't seem to prioritise controlling the corridor. When we're moving the ball from D50, we tend to go sideways and along the boundary, which admittedly has worked for us in the past, but it's always been and always will be the hard way to goal, requiring a long series of good connections.

Conversely the opposition seem to be granted a heap of space through the guts on their forays forward, with our guys defending as if playing against our own offensive style - straight down the line kicks. The lateral kick into the corridor is being poorly defended.

Here's an example where Richmond entered firstly along the boundary, then went backwards and found themselves outnumbering our guys through their offensive corridor. Vlastuin is standing all by himself just behind the umpire, they get an easy deep entry where Bolton soccers it through on the goal line.

https://i.ibb.co/LkbV5rB/Screenshot-2023-04-11-at-8-11-50-pm.png (https://ibb.co/cgM4LwR)

Here's another where Scott stays boundary side of Mansell, who breaks into loads of space and goes with a direct kick to a Cumberland-Bruce one on one, Cumberland marks and kicks a goal.

https://i.ibb.co/sVkDTs9/corridor2.png (https://ibb.co/718T3rt)

[meenies]

This has bugged me so I went and had a look at the tapes against Melb, Stk (x2), and Richmond when they got their runs on goals.

Still a little confused but things I noticed:
clearances - WB 5, Opposition 9 plus 3 frees, Dead ball 3 - WB one next clearance once and opportunity twice.
English at all clearance bar 4 - Lobb 3 Darcy 1
Treloar 4 times, Caleb 3, Bailey 10, Bont 15, MacRae 15, Libba 16
Macrae, Bont & Libba together - 9 times
Bailey & Libba - 6; Bailey & Bont - 6; Bailey & MacRae - 5
During the Melbourne run - Bont & Libba in all; Bailey & McR seemed to swap
During the 1st StK run - McR, Bont & Libba in 3 of 4 bounces
During the 2nd StK run - McR & Libba in all; Caleb & Bont seemed to swap
During the Richmond run - McR had first crack then Treloar; Libba first crack then Bont; Bailey not swapped

Not sure if these stats are consistent with other bounces were there are no opposition runs as didn't look at those.

If I had to have a stab at what the issues were at the "source":
1. During these rushes English clearly lost a stack of the ruck duels
2. We kept playing with an attacking mindset and not having body on the opposing player (one instance Pertracca was two-three steps behind Bont and read the tap for an easy clearance and goal but others were just as guilty)
3. If plan is for Libba to go straight to player who gets the ball drop then someone else cover his (now free) player
4. When the heat is on - not convinced that Bailey is best in the centre just yet and I would also have less of Macrae in there during these runs.

Are you as confused as I am?

[Mofra]

1. Lol. I haven't heard that before. Who could it be now?

2. Lol. We know AFL fights are just faux hardman occasionally torn jumper material. Which is why it's a great idea to fight on field to stop momentum.
Lever and Melksham were highly regarded boxers as juniors

[Happy Days]

Lever and Melksham were highly regarded boxers as juniors

First I’m hearing of it.

[mjp]

First I’m hearing of it.

Yeah. Me too. I'm sort of surprised the commentators don't mention it - they're usually all over the "he was a great basketballer/cricketer/uno player as a kid" type stuff.

[EasternWest]

Lever and Melksham were highly regarded boxers as juniors

Really? Never knew that. Someone should let Stephen May know.


First I’m hearing of it.
Seconded.


Yeah. Me too. I'm sort of surprised the commentators don't mention it - they're usually all over the "he was a great basketballer/cricketer/uno player as a kid" type stuff.

Thirded.

With Mason Cox being tall and US born I'm surprised he never played basketball.

[Ozza]

When the opposition gets a run on, the response should be that our 'assertive defensive positioning' is adjusted, and that we get some ball control when we get the footy instead of matching the breakneck pace that the opposition has put into the game.

I don't think we have the speed in our current team to be playing this same style we are attempting, and we see weekly how good team, or average teams in good patches, are able to easily sweep the ball from end to end against us - and then the coach usually blames it on turnover. There's clearly a broader defensive strategy issue.

Whilst I understand what the OP is getting at - that we MUST GET THE BALL - but that is pretty much our whole strategy anyway. Our gameplan is all about completely dominating possession, and the moment we lose control of that - we are completely vulnerable.

I think that it is ok to temporarily move away from your 'one wood' at stages in games when you've lost control - we saw it last week when Collingwood - who attack relentlessly - lost control of the game and Brisbane put 10 goals on them. You need to be able to switch modes and be harder to move the ball against until you arrest the momentum.

[jeemak]

This has bugged me so I went and had a look at the tapes against Melb, Stk (x2), and Richmond when they got their runs on goals.

Still a little confused but things I noticed:
clearances - WB 5, Opposition 9 plus 3 frees, Dead ball 3 - WB one next clearance once and opportunity twice.
English at all clearance bar 4 - Lobb 3 Darcy 1
Treloar 4 times, Caleb 3, Bailey 10, Bont 15, MacRae 15, Libba 16
Macrae, Bont & Libba together - 9 times
Bailey & Libba - 6; Bailey & Bont - 6; Bailey & MacRae - 5
During the Melbourne run - Bont & Libba in all; Bailey & McR seemed to swap
During the 1st StK run - McR, Bont & Libba in 3 of 4 bounces
During the 2nd StK run - McR & Libba in all; Caleb & Bont seemed to swap
During the Richmond run - McR had first crack then Treloar; Libba first crack then Bont; Bailey not swapped

Not sure if these stats are consistent with other bounces were there are no opposition runs as didn't look at those.

If I had to have a stab at what the issues were at the "source":
1. During these rushes English clearly lost a stack of the ruck duels
2. We kept playing with an attacking mindset and not having body on the opposing player (one instance Pertracca was two-three steps behind Bont and read the tap for an easy clearance and goal but others were just as guilty)
3. If plan is for Libba to go straight to player who gets the ball drop then someone else cover his (now free) player
4. When the heat is on - not convinced that Bailey is best in the centre just yet and I would also have less of Macrae in there during these runs.

Are you as confused as I am?

Not sure this surprises me, but it's a good effort/ analysis.

We have a real problem with all of Libba, Jack and Bont being able to adapt. The onus needs to be on them to nullify, let us roll someone up, and reset so they can use their prowess in congested space rather than try to dominate less contested stoppages where their offencive mindset and lack of pace is exposed.

[Scorlibo]

This has bugged me so I went and had a look at the tapes against Melb, Stk (x2), and Richmond when they got their runs on goals.

Still a little confused but things I noticed:
clearances - WB 5, Opposition 9 plus 3 frees, Dead ball 3 - WB one next clearance once and opportunity twice.
English at all clearance bar 4 - Lobb 3 Darcy 1
Treloar 4 times, Caleb 3, Bailey 10, Bont 15, MacRae 15, Libba 16
Macrae, Bont & Libba together - 9 times
Bailey & Libba - 6; Bailey & Bont - 6; Bailey & MacRae - 5
During the Melbourne run - Bont & Libba in all; Bailey & McR seemed to swap
During the 1st StK run - McR, Bont & Libba in 3 of 4 bounces
During the 2nd StK run - McR & Libba in all; Caleb & Bont seemed to swap
During the Richmond run - McR had first crack then Treloar; Libba first crack then Bont; Bailey not swapped

Not sure if these stats are consistent with other bounces were there are no opposition runs as didn't look at those.

If I had to have a stab at what the issues were at the "source":
1. During these rushes English clearly lost a stack of the ruck duels
2. We kept playing with an attacking mindset and not having body on the opposing player (one instance Pertracca was two-three steps behind Bont and read the tap for an easy clearance and goal but others were just as guilty)
3. If plan is for Libba to go straight to player who gets the ball drop then someone else cover his (now free) player
4. When the heat is on - not convinced that Bailey is best in the centre just yet and I would also have less of Macrae in there during these runs.

Are you as confused as I am?

Thanks meenies...

It stands out to me that Treloar attended only a small number of these centre bounces, and that he's been our best clearance player so far this year. He's gone from slightly superfluous to needs last year to a crucial cog in the early part of this year.