Whats wrong with the dogs. Why aren't they good at anything anymore

[Matjoh]

I read this article From The Top Deck, and it tickled my fancy. Sorry if its a bit on the longish side.

Thought it would be interesting to hear/read thoughts from the forum. I pretty much agree with most of it = I'm sure most of us do to some extent.

ANyway here it is
After the disaster of the first two weeks, the Dogs? past three games have given no reason to panic. Two grind-it-out wins against good-ish sides and an ugly but understandable close-ish loss to a team around their level.The problem isn?t with the record, or even with the lousy percentage. It?s not the inconsistent forward line or the patchwork key-back collection. The problem is that they?re not very good at anything anymore.


We (I) spent most of 2022 holding them to (hoping for) the standard of 2021, and they never got there. But there was at least the hope that the midfield could get a hold of teams and dominate possession and territory. That?s not there right now.
It?s easy to point to Josh Dunkley?s departure, and that certainly hasn?t helped. It?s deeper though.
Marcus Bontempelli is arguably the best player in the league and playing great, Tim English would be the All-Australian ruck right now, after that it gets dicey.
Tom Liberatore has been good but down on 2022 which was down on 2021, Jack Macrae is a shadow of the player he was 12 months ago, Lachie Hunter is missed, Bailey Smith hasn?t taken the next step ? and is now injured.

Adam Treloar has been one of the Dogs? best players this season, but he?s become a grunt, instead of the line-breaking inside-out player of his best.
The powerful, deep midfield is no more. It?s still good, just not good enough to raise the ceiling any higher than mid-table.
Then there?s the issue of age.


It?s OK to be old. Most old teams are good. For the most part players don?t stick around into their 30s unless they?re good. Mature players are more consistent and reliable; coaches trust them more.
That?s all well and good, having a chunk of mature players tends to raise a team?s floor. In the case of the Dogs, though, it?s lowering their ceiling.


We know who Mitch Hannan (29), Tim O?Brien (29) and Anthony Scott (28) are. They?re OK as depth, they?re OK as players 21-23 in a great team that?s humming, they?re not raising the level of this Dogs team.
Liam Jones (32) has been good, Rory Lobb (30) has been worse than disappointing.

Taylor Duryea (32, and one of my favourites) looks like he?s been tapped on the shoulder by Father Time, Toby McLean (27) is looking like a player who had two knee reconstructions in as many years.


The season is longer than ever, and it?s still young. Knock off the Dockers in a very winnable game and they?re well placed after a testing first six weeks.
I don?t think this is a bad team, but for them to be good they need a lot of players to step up ? and they desperately need to figure out whatever the hell is going on with their transition defending, or lack of.
Some other thoughts



The skipper didn?t attend a centre bounce after the 11-minute mark of the last term against Port. If he was knackered, they need to find a way to conserve his energy; if it was strategy, they need a better one.
I?m all in on Arthur Jones, but he probably needs to find a goal soon or head back to the twos for some touch. That?s fine, he?s young and his energy is great.
Has Caleb Daniel hit a target on his left so far this season?
Didn?t concede a score from opponent D50 chains in round five, but the weather saved them a couple of times when the Power moved it pretty easily the length of the field and then couldn?t cap it off. Something is still very wrong there.
So good to have Weightman back, not just the marking and the energy but it?s bloody nice to trust a player in front of goal. Having him, Naughton and Jamarra working together should make life much easier for struggling Lobb ? should.
Have been pleasantly surprised by how well Johannisen has slotted into his old role in defence. He?s defended well and been solid with his disposals and decisions while still providing dash. Nice one, Bevo.

[hujsh]

Good article. Geez I didn't know how old Scott is. We really do have some rather mediocre players in their late 20s don't we? Big issues with the list so we really need that injection of young talent this year. Maybe we can finally cut somewhat deep for once?

[ledge]

We are hanging for Busslinger , Darcy and couple of others to come through, we will be okay once they have a couple of seasons and the 29 year olds go.

[Mofra]

We are hanging for Busslinger , Darcy and couple of others to come through, we will be okay once they have a couple of seasons and the 29 year olds go.
McNeill & Cleary have spots ready for them sooner rather than later.
I suspect Riley Garcia is back soon too

We really don't have that 4th/hybrid 'general' forward though. Hannan is barely there, Bedendo injured and 'okish' and Khamis can't cover ground to play that role.

[jeemak]

Good article. Geez I didn't know how old Scott is. We really do have some rather mediocre players in their late 20s don't we? Big issues with the list so we really need that injection of young talent this year. Maybe we can finally cut somewhat deep for once?

As long as everyone's OK with "wasting the Bont years" (whatever that means) then I'm all for a big cut and rebuild.

Especially if it meant getting some excitement into our game rather than the drab, boring shite we're putting up in higher concentrations week on week.

I say that now, but I guess what I really want to see is our good players who can run with the footy actually run with the footy, and our good kicks actually kick the footy well. If that doesn't work then blow it up.

[azabob]

As long as everyone's OK with "wasting the Bont years" (whatever that means) then I'm all for a big cut and rebuild.

.

For mine we won the ultimate prize in 2016.

Bontempelli was 21 one at the time. Won a best and fairest - the highest accolade one can get in a premiership team.

As a mug supporter I think it was a fair assumption to make that Bontempelli was no where near his peak and would only get better; as would our team.

This has not been the case and so ergo we are wasting the Bont years...

Thats my view anyway.

[hujsh]

As long as everyone's OK with "wasting the Bont years" (whatever that means) then I'm all for a big cut and rebuild.

Especially if it meant getting some excitement into our game rather than the drab, boring shite we're putting up in higher concentrations week on week.

I say that now, but I guess what I really want to see is our good players who can run with the footy actually run with the footy, and our good kicks actually kick the footy well. If that doesn't work then blow it up.


For mine we won the ultimate prize in 2016.

Bontempelli was 21 one at the time. Won a best and fairest - the highest accolade one can get in a premiership team.

As a mug supporter I think it was a fair assumption to make that Bontempelli was no where near his peak and would only get better; as would our team.

This has not been the case and so ergo we are wasting the Bont years...

Thats my view anyway.

Yeah if all we can achieve with Bontempelli in his prime is 10th-7th I would rather focus on a 2-3 year rebuild of sorts (I've avoided using the word refresh here.)

He'd still be 30-31 and could be the Pendlebury to our Collingwood.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

For mine we won the ultimate prize in 2016.

Bontempelli was 21 one at the time. Won a best and fairest - the highest accolade one can get in a premiership team.

As a mug supporter I think it was a fair assumption to make that Bontempelli was no where near his peak and would only get better; as would our team.

This has not been the case and so ergo we are wasting the Bont years...

Thats my view anyway.

Yeah the Bont is arguably the best player to pull on the jumper. Given he won the b and f and premiership at 21yo we all expected a dynasty throughout his career.

It hasn't happened and the thinking is we're wasting a once in a lifetime player hanging around the fringes of the 8 most years.

Unfortunately the team for whatever reason just hasn't excelled. It's not like we were missing many pieces to support him. There's quality mids (Libba, Smith, Dunkley, Treloar), a quality forward (Naughton, T Boyd and Stringer when with us) and decent defenders earlier (Morris, Wood, Keath). None of these players are without their flaws but you'd think on paper it's enough to compete for top 4. Unfortunately we've never been a sum of our parts. For various reasons players have ended up elsewhere or haven't consistently performed.

It really is a shame but I think it's time to pull the pin and face up to the fact that what we have ain't going work. We desperately need some youth, particularly in the engine room. Oh and some natural forwards.

[MrMahatma]

I dunno. We made another GF in Bont's time. And this season isn't over yet.

I rate him highly. Best ever Dog? Maybe. I'm not sure. Good midfielders do come along a lot more frequently than excellent KPFs or Rucks though, and even if we need to refresh at some point soon, we'll have some talls to build around for another crack.

Not sure winning a flag, making a GF, and still having a few years of good footy ahead of him can amount to us wasting an excellent talent.

[D Mitchell]

I dunno. We made another GF in Bont's time. And this season isn't over yet.

I rate him highly. Best ever Dog? Maybe. I'm not sure. Good midfielders do come along a lot more frequently than excellent KPFs or Rucks though, and even if we need to refresh at some point soon, we'll have some talls to build around for another crack.

Not sure winning a flag, making a GF, and still having a few years of good footy ahead of him can amount to us wasting an excellent talent.

Bolded bit: Ted Whitten similarity. Both were part of premiership teams as 21 year olds, both captained losing premiership teams (in Ted's case, 7 years; Bont 5 years) later and both touted as best evers.

[Danjul]

Yeah if all we can achieve with Bontempelli in his prime is 10th-7th I would rather focus on a 2-3 year rebuild of sorts (I've avoided using the word refresh here.)

He'd still be 30-31 and could be the Pendlebury to our Collingwood.

This team is underperforming. Would a rebuilt team using the same game plan do any better?

Personally I doubt it.

I would rather see a rebuilt game plan, tonight would be a good time to start.

[hujsh]

This team is underperforming. Would a rebuilt team using the same game plan do any better?

Personally I doubt it.

I would rather see a rebuilt game plan, tonight would be a good time to start.

Perhaps that is the root of the issue. TBH I can't tell if it's application or design that is failing

[Grantysghost]

Perhaps that is the root of the issue. TBH I can't tell if it's application or design that is failing

That's the 64 million dollar question.

2021 - Did Bevo extract something extraordinary? I've got a feeling he did. There was a rotating cast of bit players that season.

Bruce probably best year ever.

Baz maybe peaked.

If we've got a 5-12 list and we make 2 GF's for a 50 percent record maybe he's a genius.

OR.......

Having said that it doesn't mean both things can't be right. Maybe the older core have seen enough of Bevo and have peaked.

Which lever do you pull....?

[GVGjr]

It's out kicking effectiveness and ability to get the ball quickly into the forward line. That is one of the big reasons why we can't score and with Fremantle being a solid defensive side we could struggle to kick a good score tonight unless we get a few things right.

Our best kicks and distributors of the football haven't clicked so far.

[Bullies]

Perhaps that is the root of the issue. TBH I can't tell if it's application or design that is failing It is a hard one. Maybe they do need a change at the top to get the spark back. This list is too good to waste or as many have said is the age of the group out of balance. To have the type of players we do in the 28 - 30 age bracket says a bit as a number of these are only depth players and probably shouldn't even be on an AFL list at their age. Our depth players should be in the younger age bracket.

[macca]

That's the 64 million dollar question.

2021 - Did Bevo extract something extraordinary? I've got a feeling he did. There was a rotating cast of bit players that season.

Bruce probably best year ever.

Baz maybe peaked.

If we've got a 5-12 list and we make 2 GF's for a 50 percent record maybe he's a genius.

OR.......

Having said that it doesn't mean both things can't be right. Maybe the older core have seen enough of Bevo and have peaked.

Which lever do you pull....?

Being able to input all the right parameters and pull of a win is tough in the footy industrythat judges on win results. Then it all comes down to dumb luck ( ask the saints and that infamous bounce in the GF)

One thing I have observed is we smashed in the midfield for periods of 5-10 mins and the good teams run over us aka StKilda and Melbourne this year.

Q1. Are our tactics flawed during these periods? Teams know we switch off, and find that gate ajar to run through 3-5 goals in a short period?
Q2. Do we need another big bodied mid to help bring in a defensive side to our team ?
Melbourne of Petracca and Oliver

Q3. When Bonts has a rest, who is the mid taking his place to marshall and provide leadership ? I really hoped Mitch Wallis could have made it as a mid , as he would have the stalwart Prescence about him.

Q4. our fwd setup is rubbish in the games I have observed. Do we have leading patterns that creates space for our fwds? Why are our crumbers not at the feed of the ball drop ? they never seem to be there.

One other concern I have is we do not have top end talent at that age bracket of 21-25 in the midfield cementing their place in the side, other than Bailey Smith.

[FrediKanoute]

Being able to input all the right parameters and pull of a win is tough in the footy industrythat judges on win results. Then it all comes down to dumb luck ( ask the saints and that infamous bounce in the GF)

One thing I have observed is we smashed in the midfield for periods of 5-10 mins and the good teams run over us aka StKilda and Melbourne this year.

Q1. Are our tactics flawed during these periods? Teams know we switch off, and find that gate ajar to run through 3-5 goals in a short period?
Q2. Do we need another big bodied mid to help bring in a defensive side to our team ?
Melbourne of Petracca and Oliver

Q3. When Bonts has a rest, who is the mid taking his place to marshall and provide leadership ? I really hoped Mitch Wallis could have made it as a mid , as he would have the stalwart Prescence about him.

Q4. our fwd setup is rubbish in the games I have observed. Do we have leading patterns that creates space for our fwds? Why are our crumbers not at the feed of the ball drop ? they never seem to be there.

One other concern I have is we do not have top end talent at that age bracket of 21-25 in the midfield cementing their place in the side, other than Bailey Smith.

This. JUH and Darcy falling into our laps has been a blessing, but there has been a price too - we have had to give up early picks to get them and not replenished a midfield. Felt that whilst Clarke may be a good pick up last year I would have gone with a mid especially with Cody and the development of Jones.

[Bulldog4life]

I read this article From The Top Deck, and it tickled my fancy. Sorry if its a bit on the longish side.

Thought it would be interesting to hear/read thoughts from the forum. I pretty much agree with most of it = I'm sure most of us do to some extent.

ANyway here it is
After the disaster of the first two weeks, the Dogs? past three games have given no reason to panic. Two grind-it-out wins against good-ish sides and an ugly but understandable close-ish loss to a team around their level.The problem isn?t with the record, or even with the lousy percentage. It?s not the inconsistent forward line or the patchwork key-back collection. The problem is that they?re not very good at anything anymore.


We (I) spent most of 2022 holding them to (hoping for) the standard of 2021, and they never got there. But there was at least the hope that the midfield could get a hold of teams and dominate possession and territory. That?s not there right now.
It?s easy to point to Josh Dunkley?s departure, and that certainly hasn?t helped. It?s deeper though.
Marcus Bontempelli is arguably the best player in the league and playing great, Tim English would be the All-Australian ruck right now, after that it gets dicey.
Tom Liberatore has been good but down on 2022 which was down on 2021, Jack Macrae is a shadow of the player he was 12 months ago, Lachie Hunter is missed, Bailey Smith hasn?t taken the next step ? and is now injured.

Adam Treloar has been one of the Dogs? best players this season, but he?s become a grunt, instead of the line-breaking inside-out player of his best.
The powerful, deep midfield is no more. It?s still good, just not good enough to raise the ceiling any higher than mid-table.
Then there?s the issue of age.


It?s OK to be old. Most old teams are good. For the most part players don?t stick around into their 30s unless they?re good. Mature players are more consistent and reliable; coaches trust them more.
That?s all well and good, having a chunk of mature players tends to raise a team?s floor. In the case of the Dogs, though, it?s lowering their ceiling.


We know who Mitch Hannan (29), Tim O?Brien (29) and Anthony Scott (28) are. They?re OK as depth, they?re OK as players 21-23 in a great team that?s humming, they?re not raising the level of this Dogs team.
Liam Jones (32) has been good, Rory Lobb (30) has been worse than disappointing.

Taylor Duryea (32, and one of my favourites) looks like he?s been tapped on the shoulder by Father Time, Toby McLean (27) is looking like a player who had two knee reconstructions in as many years.


The season is longer than ever, and it?s still young. Knock off the Dockers in a very winnable game and they?re well placed after a testing first six weeks.
I don?t think this is a bad team, but for them to be good they need a lot of players to step up ? and they desperately need to figure out whatever the hell is going on with their transition defending, or lack of.
Some other thoughts



The skipper didn?t attend a centre bounce after the 11-minute mark of the last term against Port. If he was knackered, they need to find a way to conserve his energy; if it was strategy, they need a better one.
I?m all in on Arthur Jones, but he probably needs to find a goal soon or head back to the twos for some touch. That?s fine, he?s young and his energy is great.
Has Caleb Daniel hit a target on his left so far this season?
Didn?t concede a score from opponent D50 chains in round five, but the weather saved them a couple of times when the Power moved it pretty easily the length of the field and then couldn?t cap it off. Something is still very wrong there.
So good to have Weightman back, not just the marking and the energy but it?s bloody nice to trust a player in front of goal. Having him, Naughton and Jamarra working together should make life much easier for struggling Lobb ? should.
Have been pleasantly surprised by how well Johannisen has slotted into his old role in defence. He?s defended well and been solid with his disposals and decisions while still providing dash. Nice one, Bevo.


Kicked a beautiful goal against Freo on his left.

[ledge]

This. JUH and Darcy falling into our laps has been a blessing, but there has been a price too - we have had to give up early picks to get them and not replenished a midfield. Felt that whilst Clarke may be a good pick up last year I would have gone with a mid especially with Cody and the development of Jones.

This years draft should be all about hard midfield players with the exception of Croft . We need to regenerate our mids as ours retire.
We have the talls for the next ten years. Let’s find a Petracca , Oliver or the next Daicos. Mids aren’t as rare as good talls . I think we can set ourself up for years if we get hold of a couple of gems in the middle .

[Mantis]

This years draft should be all about hard midfield players with the exception of Croft . We need to regenerate our mids as ours retire.
We have the talls for the next ten years. Let’s find a Petracca , Oliver or the next Daicos. Mids aren’t as rare as good talls . I think we can set ourself up for years if we get hold of a couple of gems in the middle .

Petracca - pick 2 (should've been 1, but St.Kilda wanted a KPF to replace Riewoldt)
Oliver - pick 4
Daicos - pick 4 (should've been 1 as was clearly the best performed player in his draft year)

So unless we bottom out this year or turn our 2 x 1st round picks into a pick within the first 4 it's going to be difficult to find absolute elite mids with picks in the teen's.

[ledge]

Petracca - pick 2 (should've been 1, but St.Kilda wanted a KPF to replace Riewoldt)
Oliver - pick 4
Daicos - pick 4 (should've been 1 as was clearly the best performed player in his draft year)

So unless we bottom out this year or turn our 2 x 1st round picks into a pick within the first 4 it's going to be difficult to find absolute elite mids with picks in the teen's.

I think it can be done in the teens you just need the right development at the club and they are taught the exact role. Taking them now gives us a year or two to teach them . Sadly I don’t see much in our VFL team that are capable at the moment.

[angelopetraglia]

Petracca - pick 2 (should've been 1, but St.Kilda wanted a KPF to replace Riewoldt)
Oliver - pick 4
Daicos - pick 4 (should've been 1 as was clearly the best performed player in his draft year)

So unless we bottom out this year or turn our 2 x 1st round picks into a pick within the first 4 it's going to be difficult to find absolute elite mids with picks in the teen's.

All the below have been AA which you can define as elite with the exception of Luke Shuey however he does have two B&Fs and a Normie.

Lachie Neale pick #58
Touk Miller #29
Pat Cripps #13
Nat Fyfe #20
Jack Steele #24
Luke Parker #40
Cam Guthrie #23
Tim Kelly #24
Dayne Beams #29
Luke Shuey #18
Rory Sloane #44
Rory Laird #Rookie

[Rocket Science]

Your occasional reminder we spent a pre-season prioritising fixing this ...

https://i.ibb.co/RztJQSs/Screen-Shot-2023-05-01-at-12-56-55-pm.png (https://ibb.co/sycXsPN)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Your occasional reminder we spent a pre-season prioritising fixing this ...

https://i.ibb.co/RztJQSs/Screen-Shot-2023-05-01-at-12-56-55-pm.png (https://ibb.co/sycXsPN)

That's horrible viewing. Last by a long way.

Slow ball movement? Poor cohesion? Poor forward setup? Poor skills? Slow decision makers? Why!!??

[jeemak]

I wonder what that looks like for the five rounds since round two.

[angelopetraglia]

I wonder what that looks like for the five rounds since round two.

I think excluding the Richmond game, it would look, much, much better.

[bornadog]

I wonder what that looks like for the five rounds since round two.

I asked Oliver and he came up with this: Round 3 to 7

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvD3-QZaYAEhvno?format=jpg&name=medium

[Bulldog4life]

I'm old fashioned. The main stat to interest me is the W.

[azabob]

Not sure what conclusions can be drawn that this facet of the game equals success.

Its a mixed bag of where the teams sit.

Port, Geelong, Collingwood, Brisbane all in the negatives - yet in flag contention

St.Kilda and Melbourne in the the positives and in flag contention.

[Happy Days]

Not sure what conclusions can be drawn that this facet of the game equals success.

Its a mixed bag of where the teams sit.

Port, Geelong, Collingwood, Brisbane all in the negatives - yet in flag contention

St.Kilda and Melbourne in the the positives and in flag contention.

Just from looking at it I think it’s a stat that probably needs to be looked at together with other stats.

Like, off the top of my head what are scores from inside 50 stoppages looking like? If those are high then maybe you can justify overcommitting to a contest and conceding more from teams getting out the back. I’m sure there could be other strategic reasons for it than a lack of effort.

Scores from centre clearances seem to be more backbreaking to us anyway.

[bornadog]

Last 3 weeks

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvFLEPJaQAEJsDb?format=jpg&name=medium

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Well at least we're getting better!

The saints are consistently at the top. Their against is especially good.

[jazzadogs]

I asked Oliver and he came up with this: Round 3 to 7

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvD3-QZaYAEhvno?format=jpg&name=medium

So rounds 1&2 we were +20 and -75, then -73 over the following five weeks.

This was definitely an issue in the opening two rounds, but it seems we have stabilised and are back with the pack now. I think rather than an issue with our zone, it was our pathetic pressure on the ball carrier which allowed them to take the harder options and pierce through. We are now applying better pressure, particularly inside our attacking 50, which is forcing more hacked kicks to a contest - big win.

It's our offensive numbers which are right down, and I think that correlates with the reduced effectiveness of Bailey Dale and Caleb Daniel so far this year. More of our decisions are being made by Keath, Jones, TOB than we probably want.

Preventing opposition ball movement has clearly been a big part of St Kilda success so far this year.

[Mantis]

Port Adelaide have won their last 3 games and are clearly last on this table (rd 5-7)... Collingwood & Geelong are the form teams and sit below mid-point.

Teams play differently which is a good thing.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Port Adelaide have won their last 3 games and are clearly last on this table (rd 5-7)... Collingwood & Geelong are the form teams and sit below mid-point.

Teams play differently which is a good thing.

Incredible stats for Geelong lately given they've had some huge wins. They clearly don't rely on transition.

[Jeanette54]

Incredible stats for Geelong lately given they've had some huge wins. They clearly don't rely on transition.

Scores from clearances/stoppages are also an important stat, particularly centre bounce clearances. Also, a team that habitually plays much of its football in its own forward half, will have less in the way of scores from defensive fifty.